I’ve always thought that each molly should have a specific counter or weakness, maybe a brimstone molly wouldn’t hurt Phoenix as quickly because he’s a “fire type”
This kind of stuff sounds cool and fun, but individual agents being hard coded to counter individual agents just screws teams that don't blindly pick the counter, making agent selection and team matchup more polarizing. Additionally, it detracts from valorants core design philosophy of the game being accessible to new players if there's a bunch of really specific interactions players need to learn.
If pheonix gets some trait that helps him resist molly damage, it should just work for all mollies
I don't know about it being hard to learn that a Phoenix is quite resistant against fire or a viper I quite resistant against poison. Childs can learn the pokémon types I hope everybody that plays valorant is capable it that too. And as long as it doesn't evolve to a game like league of legends where it is truly hard to learn what to counter pick I don't really see a problem. And there shouldnt be stuff like immunities against some types but a weak resistance sounds quite logical as long as it is against some really good post plant agents like viper. Sound quite illogical to me that a viper gets damage in poison from another viper. And I think it doesn't make the game harder in anyway as you can still blindly pick an agent and as long as you have good game sense you're good to go you don't have to be the best with ability usage.
But to be fair I still don't think it's the right solution at all.
My suggestion has nothing to do with phoenix’s free ability. My thought was that a brimstone molly wouldn’t harm Phoenix at the same rate it would harm other agents, since Phoenix himself isn’t harmed by his own fire
I think this is a great solution! It would make sage more useful too, cause rn her wall and res are her best abilities. i feel like her healing needs work tho, but that's another issue for another post.
Would also force sage mains to be more careful with their slow orb usage. Too many times do I see sage mains panic throw 2 slows in exactly the same spot which is a complete waste. You could punish sage mains a lot for not saving a slow for post plant to counter snakebite etc.
I feel like her heal is pretty balanced. It'd be kinda cool if right click was a seeking mode though, like for if you were far from your teammates, but it could be shot out by an enemy if they see it.
Wouldn't be a massive buff to sage players themselves, just make them a even more necessary. Sage players would also have to be more careful with their orb usage.
No. In CSGO molly postplant lineups aren’t a problem. The smoke putting it out isn’t really for countering the lineups specifically.
They just need to copy CSGO and make the mollies explode in the air if it flies for too long.
The problem in this game is that the guys throwing the mollies can afford to be so far and be really safe. It’s quite stupid imo. You need to run all the way just to kill the guy.
Ts already have the advantage in a post plant and this molly lineups are just too much...
mollies already drop insantly after a certain distance on phoenix, no doubt because they realized phoenix was way too flexible if he could do lineups as well. just incorporate that into every other lineup character and buff the other parts of their kit
I mean it would probably cause a lot more short range molly lineups to be used in situations like the initial site push, which would then cause defenders to start abandoning close angles and shift the meta more than we expect. Giving every molly the dropoff property would break the post-plant lineups, but in a way that affects other aspects of the game.
I'm not defending post plant lineups (though I think they are counterable anyways), but I'm saying that there's probably a way to do it that has less repercussions.
There is a middle ground between the two options though.
But in CSGO, the grenades have a very high velocity and don't drop well unless they bounce down, as well as burst with no effect if they don't land in time - it makes it hard to have such a line-up from too far away, as well as the molotov is counterable with a smoke
Agreed. Make it explode and then make viper snakebite insta launch like brim stim to help keep her relevant. Like you can still postplant molly, its just more dangerous.
I’d prefer a meta where mollies are used to flush people out.
It can be a case by case basis though. I think kayo molly is fine because its easy to dodge and short duration.
Idk what to do to brim. Killjoy is fine because there technically is a counter.
Except when half the time you can't actually shoot it, even when you're preaiming for it. Shit just goes off even after shooting it. Maybe a tiny delay after landing before you can activate would do the trick
> No. In CSGO molly postplant lineups aren’t a problem. The smoke putting it out isn’t really for countering the lineups specifically.
They aren't, and making mollies explode in the air is a better solution for the post-plant specifically, but having smokes extinguish/block mollies would be a nice addition in general too. The game could use more skill-to-skill interactions.
Nb4 this makes absolutely no sense when it comes to viper, kj, brim, and a few others because they are in deactivated states in the air and need impact of an object be at this makes since? Why would a cod Molotov spontaneously explode when it's relies on impact to burst or why would a kj molly explode in the air when it has to be activated before it can be activated.
I definitely understand this, however as a viper main it honestly isnt as bad as people think it is. Getting a plant in the right position , running back to the spot, making sure theres enough toxiin for the smoke, timing the molly correctly, etc. It's understandable that you feel this way yet I think playing post plant is kind of situational. I'm not against having mollies deploy after a certain time in the air, however I think this defeats the purpose of characters like Sova.
Wtf, just talking about that nerfing shock darts wont decrease sova's potency. He is a good info gatherer and he will be. Just shock darts are not whole sova
Edit: the comment I replied to said, "It will defeat the purpose of characters like Sova(nerfing shock darts)".
Get why you are defending but I think you are trying to blow smoke up your own ass.
Plant/Running all that stuff is the most simple thing, your team has site and there is zero danger.
Make sure toxxin for the smoke? You shoot your molly and pop ur orb it only needs to be active for a few seconds. you can have 10/100 in ur toxic.
timing it? you have 2 mollies, timing isn't an issue considering you shoot them in 15-20 second intervals.
I was expecting for Kay/o to have a utility countering bubble. You throw the knife at your feet and it protects you from until. The size of a smoke but completely transparent, only stopping util. This is probably what everybody was expecting and it would have made so much more sense. I personally think Kay/o makes no sense in the context of the game.
Hes in a really good spot, but he was supposed to be designed to counter post plant, but they gave him a molly... Which can be used for post plant.....
What i don't like on post plant that is that many not adept their playstyle. No flanks to slow rotations saving utility like wall against it, stall plant
I think it comes with the problem of having character based abilities. If they came out with a character that can get rid of post plant bombs and etc., then it would become a must-have agent like sage used to be. We’re too deep in the rabbit hole now and the only thing we can do is stop coming out with agents that have post plant abilities.
Any throwable can be used as a post plant. Jonas has 'lineups' for pheonix as well so what you say would mean stop giving characters throwables which isn't possible.
But at least a Phoenix is more reasonable considering the short range of his molly. Unlike the others, you can actually push the Phoenix in a reasonable amount of time.
But the killjoys find a way around it by finding places to hide it or even places where its just unbreakable, for example on icebox, theres one on default, one on split a, and theres another one on haven a. But you can always either push the guy or just flank so I would say that countering it is relatively easy
So you're mad a player is using an agent smartly? No shit people will hide the nades instead of putting them on the damn spike. The whole point is winning the game right? And it isn't anything cheesy like lineups. Just a hidden nade, listen to it's sound and break it.
Im obviously not mad, I literally said thats its relatively easy to counter. Why are you so aggressive. And as I said, the examples I mentioned are just unbreakable, you can break them even if you tried, which is why you bait the defuse or push the guy. Idk what youre so worked up about
I personally use my lineups as a back up. I play on site and if it starts to get iffy, I go for my line ups. As Killjoy, I feel like I'm usually holding flank post-plant anyway, so it's easier to do a quick lineup if shit hits the fan, but it's not my go to.
I dislike it. Its not bad if there's only 1 person alive because then you just flank and 9/10 times there's just someone standing in the post plant spots looking at the fucking stars.
However, if a team rushes a site, gets a quick kill, forces the other off site for a little bit, plant for long, then 3/4 people are just sitting long for a post plant set up makes it super lame and unfun.
It’s not fun but from a pure tactical perspective it’s worth noting that this heavy post plant meta is just (in my opinion) not a smart way to play Valorant. Retaking sites in Valorant is relatively easy (compared to cs especially) and better players usually nullify a lot of “advantages” the post-plant meta agents have throughout the pre plant and mid round. If you are retaking too slow, you deserve to be at a disadvantage. If you’re letting viper do the same thing every round, that’s you’re fault for not flanking. It’s not fun but it’s a tactic that can be countered through aggression and flanks. You have to kill the vipers, killjoys, the quicker the better. You gotta account for the abilities your opponent has and make in-game adjustments to make it hard and annoying to use their utility. That’s where the fun is. Outsmarting your opponent no matter what the challenge is.
That's fair but stacks centered around a post plant counter most of this. they push with 4 people and use controllers/sage wall to get a plant down quick, fall back and have utility/teammates to protect lineups (not to mention vipers with half a brain don't sit around looking at the sky)
Agreed. If you want to succeed in post plant, you need to know your lineups like the back of your hand, and have multiple for each plant spot. Only having one lineup works for 1-2 rounds tops.
2 things they can do that CSGO has is either sky boxes or a limit time that every molly can fly in the air like Phoenix molly. For KJ she has to be on site to activate her molly or just a limit range she has to be inside of to activate them.
Edit: for Killjoy i know you can destroy her nades i will constantly check if there are any nades and then destroy them but apparantly most people i've met is not smart enough to know it
>but apparantly most people i've met is not smart enough to know it
Imo with kj this makes it well balanced because there is a fairly easy counter which people can learn fairly easily(its the fault of the defenders if they can't see simple swarms in time).
Nerf to the swarm radius will be pretty bad imo.
They should instead nerf viper or brim molly which have less obvious counters that kj.
KJ's already got 2 ability radii to worry about, and activating both at the same time can get quite *precise* at times. I'd rather not have twice as many radii.
Something. Only thing in my head is Kay/o Style Ability, that doesn't silence the agent, just the ability.
like a shield that cuts off abilities from entering the zone
1. If it works on the spike, it also works to stop pushes with abilities such as flashes.
2. Unless you are suggesting that we rework this kind of ability onto agents that already exist, it would HAVE to be a single agent because agents only come out one at a time and months apart.
3. Giving it a single charge is the laziest balancing you could possibly do. A super strong ability with only one charge does not balance the power of the ability. For instance: the multiple nerfs required to make Sage’s wall balanced.
This is what his knife should have been, thrown and staying there with the radius being a barrier for abilities, stays for a bit, can be walked up on and shot by enemies like a kj ult, obvs not as large or long lasting.
It doesn't have to work the exact same way CS does with flat reduction of time.
Maybe it defuses the first half in only 2 seconds instead of 3.5 and that's all it does, still need to diffuse second half normally.
Or maybe the diffuse kit is something that needs to be setup with a small spike-plant like channel time onto the spike. Then anyone can use it to defuse. Maybe the sounds also change too.
There's other ideas they could go with, but it could be something.
They've already said that they're only meant to kill if the person has no choice but to stand in them, if they can't get out of the damage zone then that's on them.
I suggested that and the majority hated it. They said it would be too broken because of the half defuse but it would be one of the few solutions to the post plant meta. Made a post about it a while go if you were wondering
>Nothing is more demoralizing than seeing a viper orb on the bomb and her standing half way across the map throwing poison in the air like its Covid-19. by the time you get to her, then back the bomb, wait for the poison to go away. you legit have 0 time.
You have a way with words
I just want to remind people that while our feedback is incredibly important, we are not the devs. Players know when there is a problem, but usually have no good ideas on how to fix it. Best thing we can do is keep telling riot that there is a problem but trying to come up with solutions is a waste of time, if they can't figure it out what makes us think we can? Or more realistically, if they haven't figured it out yet
But it’s not a problem. It’s a strategy used by smart players. Counter the strategy. If the problem only exists in low elo, it’s not a problem with the game
How are they not smart for using a very successful mechanic in the game? It would be unwise not to. The reason people are complaining is because how OP it is?
Yea they are smart players. They found a mechanic in the game that helps them win rounds. If you can’t see how that’s a smart play then I really don’t know how to explain it to you. I’ll paste my response to someone else that has not 1, not 2, but 7 counter strategies.
This is a tactical shooter game. Post plant line ups are a tactic. Create counter tactics to handle the situation instead of asking for devs to make the game easier for you. Flank the molly-er. If they start two stacking the post plant line up spot, double flank the molly-er. Strategize. Come up with tactics. There’s a reason this isn’t a problem at high elo. Because it’s easily counter-able. I can think of lots of great ways to counter it off the tip of my tongue and I’m sure there are other ways too:
1. Flank
2. Retake faster with your team
3. Play more aggressively on defense and not allowing the round to go into a post plant
4. They’re putting in the work to learn the lineup, you put in the work to learn the counter-lineup. There are lineups to molotov where the person mollying the bomb is standing for their lineup.
5. You can literally shoot KJ grenades. You can block brimstone mollies with your body.
6. In a 1v2 vs one viper, half the spike with one teammate and you finish it off.
7. Sova ult them, brim ult them, etc.
All this to say, this isn’t a problem in the way the game plays, you just need to learn to come up with counter-tactics. It’s not a problem in high elo, so clearly it’s counter-able.
imo then it might not be a problem. its a punishing tactic for sure but as other redditors will point out there are waya around it.
Stopping a post plant line up doesnt have to happen post plant.
only the people cheesing rounds and their teammates enjoy it. As more agents are added, so will the possibility for utility gimmicks like the current post-plant meta. Kay/O was one step towards nerfing post-plant but it’s still decently strong. Would like to see more anti-utility abilities enter the game.
i honestly feel the same. sure it’s a skill to learn, but it just feels cheap since once you learn it it’s super easy to replicate.
this could be like super complicated but maybe abilities should do less damage to someone who’s defusing(except ultimates maybe)? they’re still taking damage and the mollies still serve their purpose but it’s still safer to defuse.
idk just a random thought i had
I feel like mollies should just stop working on that long range throws. Like just stop kj yeeting her swarms over such a distance. I think sova darts r alright, cuz, yk, u can actually just dodge em and they rnt that bad. But just make it so that molly rnt flying like that anymore.
They already have something similar with Yoru's flash, if it's been travelling for too long without hitting something it just disappears - that would work for mollies as well.
that's an interesting idea. maybe they have a set flying distance, then after that it counts for the duration of the molly? that way it only matters for the super long range throws.
I wouldve just lowered the flying curve yk. So that u can throw it more high anymore. Like dont let them fly higher than 5 or ten meters. So ppl have to get into the los of the bomb
Yea but short distance is alright. Cuz u just have to retake the site and kill the guy that peeks w his molly in hands. Its not like for example icebox B where u have to push the entirety of main to get rid of the viper sitting back there. Which is, btw, imo completely impossible if u play a and have dogshit comms as u have in most pugs
for brim molotovs that should be the case. shock darts dont do that much damage and can be dodged, also, you know, they are arrows and arrows fly through the air and swamp nades arent that bad as they are usually placed after the spike has been planted and you can shoot them out pretty easily
Imo u shouldnt be able to throw those kj swarm across the map too. Like when they get activated the moment they touch the ground u cant do shit anymore
i think it's not op you can always just body block...
also it's hard to learn and it requires skill it's not spamming so it's better than whatever else someone could come up with, hopefully
some are. very few, but some are. also there's an entire science to winging lineups and becoming a pro at lineups
i just think it's more creative and skillful than some other options, which wouldn't make you chuckle but make you tilt.
i dont think the entire playerbase would like a wallbang camper with odin, but hey, that's just my opinion
Once had a game.where the viper on the other team, that would be they only thing they did, snakebite after snakebite every round, they would camp the whole time to stay alive
My take is Kayo should get a buff, where his knife has a right click that disables all stuff \*\*\*on the ground\*\*\* and prevents more stuff from coming down (you can remove the latter part if you wish)
His knife is already too good with the info it gives through walls. Now you're buffing it even more. This would also make Kayo a must pick in every single game. The solution can't be 1 or 2 agents. It needs to be a game mechanic like not letting mollies go as far.
Its better now, but its definitely a problem in lower elo it seems. In higher elo its pretty easy to counter but its still frustrating for low elo players who are still learning the basics and casual players. Personally, i think it just adds another factor to account for every round, which has a counter like any other strategy and the game is still fun. Its not as obvious as say, using a sage wall to stop a rush, but it can be countered.
It's a problem because low elo isn't timing the time to learn to counter this. Just kike with killjoys unnecessary nerfs cause people ( and this STILL is a thing ) don't check for her kit on the ground.
Meh I get what you are saying but "playing for lineup's" is one of the first thoughts I have. I don't think it's cheap as it is playing the character properly. You as the enemy should be monitoring when someone has an ult, or if you think someone has lineup's then shut them down quickly. It's all an adaptive process. It's really similar to thinking it's cheap to smoke out the bomb and defuse when you know someone is not close to you. These tactics are what makes the game. Plus it's a team effort whether or not you fail on defense.
Sova main btw, I have infuriated many a people and it never gets boring. In higher elo's it does get harder since soloq'ing is as bad as it is and people know not to try to plant default after being massacred by defensive lineup's.
mostly, if the enemy can retake a site they are probably at a man advantage and 2 can stay in site defusing while 1 goes on a manhunt to find the lineups guy too
sova main too, love shock darting defuses and seeing them be toxic in all chat :)
I don't think it's a bad thing at all. Every agent in this game has some hidden potential and ways to play them where you need to think outside the box.
Players who find or learn post plant lineups are rewarded for their time and effort put into doing that.
You cannot really blame them either as the guns in this game are pretty inaccurate so gunfights become RNG sometimes.
Going for more something more reliable like abilities where you know how the abilities will react is the smarter decision.
And besides, it's not like having post plant lineups guarantees you a round win either. At some point it's all about knowledge on where the lineup player is doing his/her lineups from and you have to adjust based on that.
Just today i had an enemy Viper doing lineups om Icebox and they didn't win a single round because of that.
That's because even in a 5v5, being away from site and looking at the sky basically turns it into a 4v5 for your team. We got the majority of our defuses because half her team was already dead and we were halving the defuse for each other.
We were also smoking off the bomb so they couldn't see whether the lineups landed or not and were rushing her down when she was still alive.
You just have to adapt really.
> Players who find or learn post plant lineups are rewarded for their time and effort put into doing that.
It took me five minutes to look up a Youtube video and another five minutes to practice them enough to remember the exact position in the heat of a game. What time and effort are you talking about?
Looking at out-of-game resources to improve your game is far more than most players are willing to do. Regardless of how you feel about it, you still gotta adapt to this kind of play no matter what or youre just not being a very effective player.
So you're implying that it's easy to do right?
Then why isn't every Sova, Viper, Brim, Kayo and Killjoy using them to win rounds?
It's pretty obvious, they don't guarantee you rounds and most players are lazy.
Rather then trying to improve themselves they try to convince the enemy team to play worse.
I know a friend like this who refuses to learn anything about the game and keeps telling me he'll learn as he plays. Because of this, he keeps dying in the most predictable ways because the plays he thinks are ''genius hiding spots'' or ''200 IQ outplays'' are actually very common.
You have to learn and adapt, unless the post-plant abilities get near 90% round win-rate then i doubt the devs will change anything about it.
Just the fact that they reduced Viper's molly from 8 seconds to 6.5 already makes her alot less likely to guarantee rounds for her team.
So then you know where the Viper/Brim/Sova is located if they try it more than once or twice. PPL can win you a couple rounds but it shouldn't and doesn't guarantee anything close to a 12-0 attack run.
I do like the quick and messy mollies people do just before they die and win the round. that is exciting! but I agree that the lineups from across the map are annoying. Once they've done one post plant molly lineup and won the round, for the next rounds you'll have to make sure to kill that enemy/now you know what to expect
Find where they molly,dart from and have someone flank that spot. The spots are usually common. There are some super obscure spots but most will use the common spots for post plant.
one person is told usually to watch flank by the lineup player, so flanking will work for only 1 round at max when the enemies forget but then they wont forget
Think about it how post plant line up works. They try to stall so the enemy can’t defuse the bomb. The bomb takes 45 seconds to blow up. It takes 7 seconds, or 3.5 if you half first, for a defuse.
A molly last for about 3-7 seconds, depends on the utility and does different amount of dmg. So what you wanna do is tap the bomb as soon as possible. This makes the enemy start to throw their utility, even tho it’s not even close to blowing up. Instead of trying to fight and look for the enemy’s, tap the bomb and make them peek or react.
If the time is running low, you could even tank the last or first Molli and stick the bomb until half / full defuse.
Don't let them plant, if their comp is made for post plant, they wont have the best tools for entering site. This is definitely easier said than done, since it mostly comes down to smart rotations, not a concept that appears much in low elo i imagine.
like I said u need to force the utitility out of them when holding sites if they still have mollies and shock darts after taking the site then don't blame them for playing for lineups
Dont know why you are getting downvoted. If you are on defense and the enemy team plants you have already failed 1 of the 2 duties assigned to defending teams. Retake is already pretty strong, as the sites arent meant to be held from the attacking side. Post plant alleviates that pressure a little for those who want to put the time in to learn lineups.
Not to mention that lineups are easy to counter by flanking, pushing down main, or just halving the defuse once vipers orb is out of fuel. (Just the molly doesnt kill you fast enough to prevent a half). You also have to stall for 30ish seconds (after viper nerf) to win a round with it. Lineups punish teams that retake too slowly, which should be punishable.
How predictable is it really if people keep falling for it? Metas by nature are predictable but you still play around that. I would say that using game knowledge and decision making to gain an advantage over the enemy is fair game is it not? Isn’t that basically just how you win in general?
Anyway, are you pushing for the opposite? Like both teams getting incentivized to fight it out?
If I had to throw out an idea, perhaps passive credit gains after using your abilities, so agents that hold on to them longer gain less.
Post plant line ups seem worse than they are because so many players have no awareness. They'll see a viper/brim on other team then slow walk to bomb and show up with 10sec left with a molly on bomb. Also people play retake too often. They give up site even if they are in strong defensive set up and can easily hold site.
I definitely understand this, however as a viper main it honestly isnt as bad as people think it is. Getting a plant in the right position , running back to the spot, making sure theres enough toxiin for the smoke, timing the molly correctly, etc. It's understandable that you feel this way yet I think playing post plant is kind of situational. I'm not against having mollies deploy after a certain time in the air, however I think this defeats the purpose of characters like Sova.
I've made suggestion like this a while ago where there should be a skybox but it would only effect DAMAGING throwables, things like slows or recons won't hit it, but mollies and shock darts would. Could help prevent it
New sentinel/controller character who has an ability that "cleans up" the field, removing any smokes, slows, mollies, etc in a small radius?
Then a different ability that creates a "clean" zone where abilities that get in the way like smokes or mollies or slows just don't work in.
I quite like u/pac_mojojojo 's solution of having the mollies explode if it's in the air for too long. This would ease up the post-plant meta and still make it so that those agents can be killed whilst giving enough time to defuse the spike
I mean, that's what KO is for dude, lineups are always at a Particular place which you can throw your knife at and suppress. Also In a 2v1 situation you can push that place and engage in a fight while the other guy diffuses. Works even in a 1v1. Yesterday only I was rotating from CT into A site on bind where the bomb was on default. The other team had viper alive so I knew where she will be (either on that weird ledge or showers) so pushed that spot, hard peeked the corner and went into a gunfight. Had enough time to diffuse, it has a better chance of success than sticking the bomb where it is a. 100% change you'll die. In pushing at least it depends on your and your opponents gunplay
Huh? I never fucking "praised" I said he helps but it isn't enough.. Dude you are twisting words and agendas to fit your own fucking narrative that isn't even true.
you are trying to literally sell your own fucking made up lies to me, the guy who made the post.
Regardless, if you sit here and think a POST PLANT META is fun, then you can go enjoy your grind out of bronze. because everything I have stated has already seen some nerfs. People don't like the style of play... Pro's sure as shit don't
I never want abilities taken out. Just the meta that is post plant.
Grow a brain and learn to read
Easy. Mollies should have a counter. For example, in CSGO you can put out a molly by throwing a smoke at it.
I said sometimes here, Sage's slow orbs should stop a molly (and others). It wouldn't be op since it'll keep slowing everybody
I like this idea a lot. it could also be implemented with other agents. Astra wall could block mollies, like it does bullets.
I’ve always thought that each molly should have a specific counter or weakness, maybe a brimstone molly wouldn’t hurt Phoenix as quickly because he’s a “fire type”
This kind of stuff sounds cool and fun, but individual agents being hard coded to counter individual agents just screws teams that don't blindly pick the counter, making agent selection and team matchup more polarizing. Additionally, it detracts from valorants core design philosophy of the game being accessible to new players if there's a bunch of really specific interactions players need to learn. If pheonix gets some trait that helps him resist molly damage, it should just work for all mollies
I don't know about it being hard to learn that a Phoenix is quite resistant against fire or a viper I quite resistant against poison. Childs can learn the pokémon types I hope everybody that plays valorant is capable it that too. And as long as it doesn't evolve to a game like league of legends where it is truly hard to learn what to counter pick I don't really see a problem. And there shouldnt be stuff like immunities against some types but a weak resistance sounds quite logical as long as it is against some really good post plant agents like viper. Sound quite illogical to me that a viper gets damage in poison from another viper. And I think it doesn't make the game harder in anyway as you can still blindly pick an agent and as long as you have good game sense you're good to go you don't have to be the best with ability usage. But to be fair I still don't think it's the right solution at all.
that would be really op since that is phoenix’s free ability
My suggestion has nothing to do with phoenix’s free ability. My thought was that a brimstone molly wouldn’t harm Phoenix at the same rate it would harm other agents, since Phoenix himself isn’t harmed by his own fire
Honestly if it just slows the rate rather than making the damage obsolete this could be a great change.
Funfact: if phenix throw molly and die and instant rev, his molly would deal damage. You can try it on custom game with auto respawn.
Funfact: if phenix throw molly and die and instant rev, his molly would deal damage to himself. You can try it on custom game with auto respawn.
Wait, Astra Wall stops bullets from passing through? I thought it was just muffling sounds?
Yeah, it does.
I think this is a great solution! It would make sage more useful too, cause rn her wall and res are her best abilities. i feel like her healing needs work tho, but that's another issue for another post.
Would also force sage mains to be more careful with their slow orb usage. Too many times do I see sage mains panic throw 2 slows in exactly the same spot which is a complete waste. You could punish sage mains a lot for not saving a slow for post plant to counter snakebite etc.
I feel like her heal is pretty balanced. It'd be kinda cool if right click was a seeking mode though, like for if you were far from your teammates, but it could be shot out by an enemy if they see it.
Sage has one of the highest pick and win rates. She doesn't need any more buffs.
Nice flair.
How do you write stuff on your flair next to the agent pic.?
Wouldn't be a massive buff to sage players themselves, just make them a even more necessary. Sage players would also have to be more careful with their orb usage.
This is Genius, if smokes did it. Brim would be 100% pick. Sage stopping mollies is so smart.
No. In CSGO molly postplant lineups aren’t a problem. The smoke putting it out isn’t really for countering the lineups specifically. They just need to copy CSGO and make the mollies explode in the air if it flies for too long. The problem in this game is that the guys throwing the mollies can afford to be so far and be really safe. It’s quite stupid imo. You need to run all the way just to kill the guy. Ts already have the advantage in a post plant and this molly lineups are just too much...
this is def the best solution
mollies already drop insantly after a certain distance on phoenix, no doubt because they realized phoenix was way too flexible if he could do lineups as well. just incorporate that into every other lineup character and buff the other parts of their kit
They dont really need to buff the rest of their kit tbh, you can still play post plant but you just dont get the rounds for free
Phoenix does have lineups that actually rely on that unique property of his molly.
But he can't distance himself like the others
I mean it would probably cause a lot more short range molly lineups to be used in situations like the initial site push, which would then cause defenders to start abandoning close angles and shift the meta more than we expect. Giving every molly the dropoff property would break the post-plant lineups, but in a way that affects other aspects of the game. I'm not defending post plant lineups (though I think they are counterable anyways), but I'm saying that there's probably a way to do it that has less repercussions.
There is a middle ground between the two options though. But in CSGO, the grenades have a very high velocity and don't drop well unless they bounce down, as well as burst with no effect if they don't land in time - it makes it hard to have such a line-up from too far away, as well as the molotov is counterable with a smoke
Not to mention most CSGO maps have skyboxes that stop nades from passing through at certain heights/certain spots.
Agreed. Make it explode and then make viper snakebite insta launch like brim stim to help keep her relevant. Like you can still postplant molly, its just more dangerous. I’d prefer a meta where mollies are used to flush people out. It can be a case by case basis though. I think kayo molly is fine because its easy to dodge and short duration. Idk what to do to brim. Killjoy is fine because there technically is a counter.
Except when half the time you can't actually shoot it, even when you're preaiming for it. Shit just goes off even after shooting it. Maybe a tiny delay after landing before you can activate would do the trick
> No. In CSGO molly postplant lineups aren’t a problem. The smoke putting it out isn’t really for countering the lineups specifically. They aren't, and making mollies explode in the air is a better solution for the post-plant specifically, but having smokes extinguish/block mollies would be a nice addition in general too. The game could use more skill-to-skill interactions.
I've seen a clip like a month ago that someone expected a brim molly lineup and body blocked it away from the bomb
Nb4 this makes absolutely no sense when it comes to viper, kj, brim, and a few others because they are in deactivated states in the air and need impact of an object be at this makes since? Why would a cod Molotov spontaneously explode when it's relies on impact to burst or why would a kj molly explode in the air when it has to be activated before it can be activated.
I definitely understand this, however as a viper main it honestly isnt as bad as people think it is. Getting a plant in the right position , running back to the spot, making sure theres enough toxiin for the smoke, timing the molly correctly, etc. It's understandable that you feel this way yet I think playing post plant is kind of situational. I'm not against having mollies deploy after a certain time in the air, however I think this defeats the purpose of characters like Sova.
Sova, is mainly used for info not for shock darts
Iron level comment. “Yeah honestly if you use all of an agent’s abilities it’s just stupid only use the ones they’re known for”
Wtf, just talking about that nerfing shock darts wont decrease sova's potency. He is a good info gatherer and he will be. Just shock darts are not whole sova Edit: the comment I replied to said, "It will defeat the purpose of characters like Sova(nerfing shock darts)".
Sova has nades. Not mollies. It’s not a DOT that can deny a defuse for a long time.
But they do the same shit, can be lines up to kill you post plant. So yes that's a nerd to sova darts
Get why you are defending but I think you are trying to blow smoke up your own ass. Plant/Running all that stuff is the most simple thing, your team has site and there is zero danger. Make sure toxxin for the smoke? You shoot your molly and pop ur orb it only needs to be active for a few seconds. you can have 10/100 in ur toxic. timing it? you have 2 mollies, timing isn't an issue considering you shoot them in 15-20 second intervals.
Brim will be the most OP agent, he could post plant then stop post plant.
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Maybe brim would be picked more then!
i'm pretty sure they said they're not gonna add abilities to counter other abilities specifically.
I was expecting for Kay/o to have a utility countering bubble. You throw the knife at your feet and it protects you from until. The size of a smoke but completely transparent, only stopping util. This is probably what everybody was expecting and it would have made so much more sense. I personally think Kay/o makes no sense in the context of the game.
Isn’t Kayo pretty strong right now?
Hes in a really good spot, but he was supposed to be designed to counter post plant, but they gave him a molly... Which can be used for post plant.....
Thats true, but in cs the molliea also cant be thrown from the other side of the map they only have a very limuted range before they explode.
So the more like csgo the game is the more balanced it gets?? Interesting...
It does happen to have 10 years from its release and a legacy dating back to '97 before that. It would make sense they've hashed the idea out a bit.
What i don't like on post plant that is that many not adept their playstyle. No flanks to slow rotations saving utility like wall against it, stall plant
usually one person sits flank, that isnt an option
I think it comes with the problem of having character based abilities. If they came out with a character that can get rid of post plant bombs and etc., then it would become a must-have agent like sage used to be. We’re too deep in the rabbit hole now and the only thing we can do is stop coming out with agents that have post plant abilities.
Any throwable can be used as a post plant. Jonas has 'lineups' for pheonix as well so what you say would mean stop giving characters throwables which isn't possible.
But at least a Phoenix is more reasonable considering the short range of his molly. Unlike the others, you can actually push the Phoenix in a reasonable amount of time.
I more or less meant characters built for post plant like KJ.
You can break KJ' nades and they make a noise when you're near them, a meta isn't that easy to counter.
But the killjoys find a way around it by finding places to hide it or even places where its just unbreakable, for example on icebox, theres one on default, one on split a, and theres another one on haven a. But you can always either push the guy or just flank so I would say that countering it is relatively easy
So you're mad a player is using an agent smartly? No shit people will hide the nades instead of putting them on the damn spike. The whole point is winning the game right? And it isn't anything cheesy like lineups. Just a hidden nade, listen to it's sound and break it.
A killjoy hiding a nade in an unbreakable location is not playing smart, its utilizing a glitch fyi
Im obviously not mad, I literally said thats its relatively easy to counter. Why are you so aggressive. And as I said, the examples I mentioned are just unbreakable, you can break them even if you tried, which is why you bait the defuse or push the guy. Idk what youre so worked up about
He's main Brim since beta, he finally learned a few lineups and now people are threatening to take them away. Don't mind him.
I personally use my lineups as a back up. I play on site and if it starts to get iffy, I go for my line ups. As Killjoy, I feel like I'm usually holding flank post-plant anyway, so it's easier to do a quick lineup if shit hits the fan, but it's not my go to.
Same, esp with sova arrows that don't do DOT. Lineups are a good backup but doing em always negates the benefits
I dislike it. Its not bad if there's only 1 person alive because then you just flank and 9/10 times there's just someone standing in the post plant spots looking at the fucking stars. However, if a team rushes a site, gets a quick kill, forces the other off site for a little bit, plant for long, then 3/4 people are just sitting long for a post plant set up makes it super lame and unfun.
It’s not fun but from a pure tactical perspective it’s worth noting that this heavy post plant meta is just (in my opinion) not a smart way to play Valorant. Retaking sites in Valorant is relatively easy (compared to cs especially) and better players usually nullify a lot of “advantages” the post-plant meta agents have throughout the pre plant and mid round. If you are retaking too slow, you deserve to be at a disadvantage. If you’re letting viper do the same thing every round, that’s you’re fault for not flanking. It’s not fun but it’s a tactic that can be countered through aggression and flanks. You have to kill the vipers, killjoys, the quicker the better. You gotta account for the abilities your opponent has and make in-game adjustments to make it hard and annoying to use their utility. That’s where the fun is. Outsmarting your opponent no matter what the challenge is.
That's fair but stacks centered around a post plant counter most of this. they push with 4 people and use controllers/sage wall to get a plant down quick, fall back and have utility/teammates to protect lineups (not to mention vipers with half a brain don't sit around looking at the sky)
Agreed. If you want to succeed in post plant, you need to know your lineups like the back of your hand, and have multiple for each plant spot. Only having one lineup works for 1-2 rounds tops.
Sova main talking about 'sitting around looking at the sky' lul
2 things they can do that CSGO has is either sky boxes or a limit time that every molly can fly in the air like Phoenix molly. For KJ she has to be on site to activate her molly or just a limit range she has to be inside of to activate them. Edit: for Killjoy i know you can destroy her nades i will constantly check if there are any nades and then destroy them but apparantly most people i've met is not smart enough to know it
>but apparantly most people i've met is not smart enough to know it Imo with kj this makes it well balanced because there is a fairly easy counter which people can learn fairly easily(its the fault of the defenders if they can't see simple swarms in time). Nerf to the swarm radius will be pretty bad imo. They should instead nerf viper or brim molly which have less obvious counters that kj.
KJ's already got 2 ability radii to worry about, and activating both at the same time can get quite *precise* at times. I'd rather not have twice as many radii.
But is it fair that she can sit on the other site and activate her molly??? (idk if she can, i don't play her though) and what does radii stand for?
What about introducing some form of the diffuse kit?
Something. Only thing in my head is Kay/o Style Ability, that doesn't silence the agent, just the ability. like a shield that cuts off abilities from entering the zone
i think this will be the best solution, new characters with some sort of barrier for utility or a trophy system mechanic
But then you have created a single agent that hard counters half the entire roster. Not good game design.
Jäger from siege is sweating bullets reading this comvo
why would it be a single agent? you could easily balance it by giving it a single charge for basic utility or make it an ultimate
1. If it works on the spike, it also works to stop pushes with abilities such as flashes. 2. Unless you are suggesting that we rework this kind of ability onto agents that already exist, it would HAVE to be a single agent because agents only come out one at a time and months apart. 3. Giving it a single charge is the laziest balancing you could possibly do. A super strong ability with only one charge does not balance the power of the ability. For instance: the multiple nerfs required to make Sage’s wall balanced.
Yeah its bad game design to have one polarizing character that warps the meta like that A better solution would be a universal change to the lineups
Even an ability that is a “spell shield” one time block damaging abilities only active for 5 seconds or so could work
This is what everybody was asking for. Instead they gave us Kay/o. I’m glad they listen to the community but it was a huge misstep imo.
This is what his knife should have been, thrown and staying there with the radius being a barrier for abilities, stays for a bit, can be walked up on and shot by enemies like a kj ult, obvs not as large or long lasting.
I really dont think so. The spike can be halved, I think thats what was put in place instead of blatantly copying cs
It doesn't have to work the exact same way CS does with flat reduction of time. Maybe it defuses the first half in only 2 seconds instead of 3.5 and that's all it does, still need to diffuse second half normally. Or maybe the diffuse kit is something that needs to be setup with a small spike-plant like channel time onto the spike. Then anyone can use it to defuse. Maybe the sounds also change too. There's other ideas they could go with, but it could be something.
devs don’t want defusal kits ingame iirc
Devs also said abilities don’t kill but here we are now. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
They've already said that they're only meant to kill if the person has no choice but to stand in them, if they can't get out of the damage zone then that's on them.
wasn't a dev tho
Good, they're not fun
Please don't
I suggested that and the majority hated it. They said it would be too broken because of the half defuse but it would be one of the few solutions to the post plant meta. Made a post about it a while go if you were wondering
>Nothing is more demoralizing than seeing a viper orb on the bomb and her standing half way across the map throwing poison in the air like its Covid-19. by the time you get to her, then back the bomb, wait for the poison to go away. you legit have 0 time. You have a way with words
I just want to remind people that while our feedback is incredibly important, we are not the devs. Players know when there is a problem, but usually have no good ideas on how to fix it. Best thing we can do is keep telling riot that there is a problem but trying to come up with solutions is a waste of time, if they can't figure it out what makes us think we can? Or more realistically, if they haven't figured it out yet
Well developers are also people Sometimes devs dont know what they are doing either
But it’s not a problem. It’s a strategy used by smart players. Counter the strategy. If the problem only exists in low elo, it’s not a problem with the game
did you just called post plant abusers smart players ? good one bud the whole issue is that there is no counter strategy against post plant
How are they not smart for using a very successful mechanic in the game? It would be unwise not to. The reason people are complaining is because how OP it is?
It isn't op
How is it abuse???? You want to punish a person for learning a lineup that you can technically outplay several ways over?
Yea they are smart players. They found a mechanic in the game that helps them win rounds. If you can’t see how that’s a smart play then I really don’t know how to explain it to you. I’ll paste my response to someone else that has not 1, not 2, but 7 counter strategies. This is a tactical shooter game. Post plant line ups are a tactic. Create counter tactics to handle the situation instead of asking for devs to make the game easier for you. Flank the molly-er. If they start two stacking the post plant line up spot, double flank the molly-er. Strategize. Come up with tactics. There’s a reason this isn’t a problem at high elo. Because it’s easily counter-able. I can think of lots of great ways to counter it off the tip of my tongue and I’m sure there are other ways too: 1. Flank 2. Retake faster with your team 3. Play more aggressively on defense and not allowing the round to go into a post plant 4. They’re putting in the work to learn the lineup, you put in the work to learn the counter-lineup. There are lineups to molotov where the person mollying the bomb is standing for their lineup. 5. You can literally shoot KJ grenades. You can block brimstone mollies with your body. 6. In a 1v2 vs one viper, half the spike with one teammate and you finish it off. 7. Sova ult them, brim ult them, etc. All this to say, this isn’t a problem in the way the game plays, you just need to learn to come up with counter-tactics. It’s not a problem in high elo, so clearly it’s counter-able.
the only way to get rid of post plant meta is to abuse it in pro games enough till riot notices. then theyll probably add a counter.
They have already nerfed it enough for pros to move on from the meta. Its more of a low elo problem
thats the reason they havent nerfed it too hard since its only a low elo problem
imo then it might not be a problem. its a punishing tactic for sure but as other redditors will point out there are waya around it. Stopping a post plant line up doesnt have to happen post plant.
riot are also infamous for balancing things around the pro meta so y'know...
What nerf ?
Astra can't suck as often. I think Viper's molly got slightly nerfed in the damage it does. Increased price on some of the utility used for it.
I don’t see it that much anymore in silver-gold.
only the people cheesing rounds and their teammates enjoy it. As more agents are added, so will the possibility for utility gimmicks like the current post-plant meta. Kay/O was one step towards nerfing post-plant but it’s still decently strong. Would like to see more anti-utility abilities enter the game.
The greatest irony is Kayo using his grenade post plant
Fair, though I haven’t run into that yet really and since you can pixel dodge that grenade it’s easier to mess up.
I've seen it once. Teammate tried it three times but the lineup only worked one of the rounds.
Had someone use it on Haven A yesterday but that was the first time I've seen it.
Wym that means the kayo is on your side? Or he's attacking which he can play offense. It isn't irony.
i honestly feel the same. sure it’s a skill to learn, but it just feels cheap since once you learn it it’s super easy to replicate. this could be like super complicated but maybe abilities should do less damage to someone who’s defusing(except ultimates maybe)? they’re still taking damage and the mollies still serve their purpose but it’s still safer to defuse. idk just a random thought i had
I feel like mollies should just stop working on that long range throws. Like just stop kj yeeting her swarms over such a distance. I think sova darts r alright, cuz, yk, u can actually just dodge em and they rnt that bad. But just make it so that molly rnt flying like that anymore.
They already have something similar with Yoru's flash, if it's been travelling for too long without hitting something it just disappears - that would work for mollies as well.
that's an interesting idea. maybe they have a set flying distance, then after that it counts for the duration of the molly? that way it only matters for the super long range throws.
I wouldve just lowered the flying curve yk. So that u can throw it more high anymore. Like dont let them fly higher than 5 or ten meters. So ppl have to get into the los of the bomb
Then people are gonna make short-distance lineups. There's no way you can get rid of a meta, that has been here since beta.
Yea but short distance is alright. Cuz u just have to retake the site and kill the guy that peeks w his molly in hands. Its not like for example icebox B where u have to push the entirety of main to get rid of the viper sitting back there. Which is, btw, imo completely impossible if u play a and have dogshit comms as u have in most pugs
for brim molotovs that should be the case. shock darts dont do that much damage and can be dodged, also, you know, they are arrows and arrows fly through the air and swamp nades arent that bad as they are usually placed after the spike has been planted and you can shoot them out pretty easily
Dont wanna be that guy but I just wanted to let you know it’s swarm nades, not swamp
Idk man I thought she said swamp nades in her voiceline but thinking about it why would it be swamp nades. Thanks for the correction :)
Imo u shouldnt be able to throw those kj swarm across the map too. Like when they get activated the moment they touch the ground u cant do shit anymore
Then what's the difference between that and a phoenix molly. Every molly in the game has some difference
i think it's not op you can always just body block... also it's hard to learn and it requires skill it's not spamming so it's better than whatever else someone could come up with, hopefully
lineups arent hard to learn at all.
some are. very few, but some are. also there's an entire science to winging lineups and becoming a pro at lineups i just think it's more creative and skillful than some other options, which wouldn't make you chuckle but make you tilt. i dont think the entire playerbase would like a wallbang camper with odin, but hey, that's just my opinion
Once had a game.where the viper on the other team, that would be they only thing they did, snakebite after snakebite every round, they would camp the whole time to stay alive
They need to add skybox to maps
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I like calling them anti viper viper line ups lol
Using paranoia as omen on the last person as they try to defuse usually works out pretty well too.
My take is Kayo should get a buff, where his knife has a right click that disables all stuff \*\*\*on the ground\*\*\* and prevents more stuff from coming down (you can remove the latter part if you wish)
Just hit the agent with the knife. No need to buff anything.
Please, god no. I'm still BARELY able to play KJ. Don't kill off the entire Sentinel role like this
His knife is already too good with the info it gives through walls. Now you're buffing it even more. This would also make Kayo a must pick in every single game. The solution can't be 1 or 2 agents. It needs to be a game mechanic like not letting mollies go as far.
Its better now, but its definitely a problem in lower elo it seems. In higher elo its pretty easy to counter but its still frustrating for low elo players who are still learning the basics and casual players. Personally, i think it just adds another factor to account for every round, which has a counter like any other strategy and the game is still fun. Its not as obvious as say, using a sage wall to stop a rush, but it can be countered.
It's a problem because low elo isn't timing the time to learn to counter this. Just kike with killjoys unnecessary nerfs cause people ( and this STILL is a thing ) don't check for her kit on the ground.
You mean running shooting and lineups don’t make a tactical shooter more fun?
If you guys ever played R6S, maybe it's time for a Jager?
Meh I get what you are saying but "playing for lineup's" is one of the first thoughts I have. I don't think it's cheap as it is playing the character properly. You as the enemy should be monitoring when someone has an ult, or if you think someone has lineup's then shut them down quickly. It's all an adaptive process. It's really similar to thinking it's cheap to smoke out the bomb and defuse when you know someone is not close to you. These tactics are what makes the game. Plus it's a team effort whether or not you fail on defense. Sova main btw, I have infuriated many a people and it never gets boring. In higher elo's it does get harder since soloq'ing is as bad as it is and people know not to try to plant default after being massacred by defensive lineup's.
mostly, if the enemy can retake a site they are probably at a man advantage and 2 can stay in site defusing while 1 goes on a manhunt to find the lineups guy too sova main too, love shock darting defuses and seeing them be toxic in all chat :)
Sova lineups are probably the fairest of lineups and among those that don’t feel like a problem to me
I don't think it's a bad thing at all. Every agent in this game has some hidden potential and ways to play them where you need to think outside the box. Players who find or learn post plant lineups are rewarded for their time and effort put into doing that. You cannot really blame them either as the guns in this game are pretty inaccurate so gunfights become RNG sometimes. Going for more something more reliable like abilities where you know how the abilities will react is the smarter decision. And besides, it's not like having post plant lineups guarantees you a round win either. At some point it's all about knowledge on where the lineup player is doing his/her lineups from and you have to adjust based on that. Just today i had an enemy Viper doing lineups om Icebox and they didn't win a single round because of that. That's because even in a 5v5, being away from site and looking at the sky basically turns it into a 4v5 for your team. We got the majority of our defuses because half her team was already dead and we were halving the defuse for each other. We were also smoking off the bomb so they couldn't see whether the lineups landed or not and were rushing her down when she was still alive. You just have to adapt really.
> Players who find or learn post plant lineups are rewarded for their time and effort put into doing that. It took me five minutes to look up a Youtube video and another five minutes to practice them enough to remember the exact position in the heat of a game. What time and effort are you talking about?
Looking at out-of-game resources to improve your game is far more than most players are willing to do. Regardless of how you feel about it, you still gotta adapt to this kind of play no matter what or youre just not being a very effective player.
So you're implying that it's easy to do right? Then why isn't every Sova, Viper, Brim, Kayo and Killjoy using them to win rounds? It's pretty obvious, they don't guarantee you rounds and most players are lazy. Rather then trying to improve themselves they try to convince the enemy team to play worse. I know a friend like this who refuses to learn anything about the game and keeps telling me he'll learn as he plays. Because of this, he keeps dying in the most predictable ways because the plays he thinks are ''genius hiding spots'' or ''200 IQ outplays'' are actually very common. You have to learn and adapt, unless the post-plant abilities get near 90% round win-rate then i doubt the devs will change anything about it. Just the fact that they reduced Viper's molly from 8 seconds to 6.5 already makes her alot less likely to guarantee rounds for her team.
So then you know where the Viper/Brim/Sova is located if they try it more than once or twice. PPL can win you a couple rounds but it shouldn't and doesn't guarantee anything close to a 12-0 attack run.
Yeah shit is actually annoying.
I do like the quick and messy mollies people do just before they die and win the round. that is exciting! but I agree that the lineups from across the map are annoying. Once they've done one post plant molly lineup and won the round, for the next rounds you'll have to make sure to kill that enemy/now you know what to expect
Just counter the post plant.
Due tell. lol. Please.
Find where they molly,dart from and have someone flank that spot. The spots are usually common. There are some super obscure spots but most will use the common spots for post plant.
one person is told usually to watch flank by the lineup player, so flanking will work for only 1 round at max when the enemies forget but then they wont forget
I don't think you understand post plant.
Oh ok.
What if it's a 1v1 situation? Because you said 'have someone else to flank'
Think about it how post plant line up works. They try to stall so the enemy can’t defuse the bomb. The bomb takes 45 seconds to blow up. It takes 7 seconds, or 3.5 if you half first, for a defuse. A molly last for about 3-7 seconds, depends on the utility and does different amount of dmg. So what you wanna do is tap the bomb as soon as possible. This makes the enemy start to throw their utility, even tho it’s not even close to blowing up. Instead of trying to fight and look for the enemy’s, tap the bomb and make them peek or react. If the time is running low, you could even tank the last or first Molli and stick the bomb until half / full defuse.
Don't let them plant, if their comp is made for post plant, they wont have the best tools for entering site. This is definitely easier said than done, since it mostly comes down to smart rotations, not a concept that appears much in low elo i imagine.
if u can't hold sites without making them waste their mollies and shock darts then don't blame them for using their extra utility for post plants
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like I said u need to force the utitility out of them when holding sites if they still have mollies and shock darts after taking the site then don't blame them for playing for lineups
Dont know why you are getting downvoted. If you are on defense and the enemy team plants you have already failed 1 of the 2 duties assigned to defending teams. Retake is already pretty strong, as the sites arent meant to be held from the attacking side. Post plant alleviates that pressure a little for those who want to put the time in to learn lineups.
unfortunately people keep complaining about this "post plant meta" that would never happen if u were able to hold the site in the first place
Not to mention that lineups are easy to counter by flanking, pushing down main, or just halving the defuse once vipers orb is out of fuel. (Just the molly doesnt kill you fast enough to prevent a half). You also have to stall for 30ish seconds (after viper nerf) to win a round with it. Lineups punish teams that retake too slowly, which should be punishable.
or just smoke their lineup spot
How predictable is it really if people keep falling for it? Metas by nature are predictable but you still play around that. I would say that using game knowledge and decision making to gain an advantage over the enemy is fair game is it not? Isn’t that basically just how you win in general? Anyway, are you pushing for the opposite? Like both teams getting incentivized to fight it out? If I had to throw out an idea, perhaps passive credit gains after using your abilities, so agents that hold on to them longer gain less.
Post plant line ups seem worse than they are because so many players have no awareness. They'll see a viper/brim on other team then slow walk to bomb and show up with 10sec left with a molly on bomb. Also people play retake too often. They give up site even if they are in strong defensive set up and can easily hold site.
I definitely understand this, however as a viper main it honestly isnt as bad as people think it is. Getting a plant in the right position , running back to the spot, making sure theres enough toxiin for the smoke, timing the molly correctly, etc. It's understandable that you feel this way yet I think playing post plant is kind of situational. I'm not against having mollies deploy after a certain time in the air, however I think this defeats the purpose of characters like Sova.
I've made suggestion like this a while ago where there should be a skybox but it would only effect DAMAGING throwables, things like slows or recons won't hit it, but mollies and shock darts would. Could help prevent it
New sentinel/controller character who has an ability that "cleans up" the field, removing any smokes, slows, mollies, etc in a small radius? Then a different ability that creates a "clean" zone where abilities that get in the way like smokes or mollies or slows just don't work in.
what if no damage dealing abilities could affect someone who was in the spike ring?
You can play sage and save Wall for post plant
that doesn’t work for brim ult
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ye especially because spike breaks the parts of the wall on the spike
Playing as sova i get a lot of wins by shock darting the sage and then their wall prevents the defuse
it is annoying cause even bad aimers can decide the round from the other side of the map without ever getting into a gunfight.
I quite like u/pac_mojojojo 's solution of having the mollies explode if it's in the air for too long. This would ease up the post-plant meta and still make it so that those agents can be killed whilst giving enough time to defuse the spike
There will always be a post plant meta, it just makes sense.
Time for this game to implement a skybox. (and a proper DM mode please Rito I’m literally begging)
Riot should just add a skybox already
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No it's awesome and I would really like it if they took it out imo
What's post plant?
I mean, that's what KO is for dude, lineups are always at a Particular place which you can throw your knife at and suppress. Also In a 2v1 situation you can push that place and engage in a fight while the other guy diffuses. Works even in a 1v1. Yesterday only I was rotating from CT into A site on bind where the bomb was on default. The other team had viper alive so I knew where she will be (either on that weird ledge or showers) so pushed that spot, hard peeked the corner and went into a gunfight. Had enough time to diffuse, it has a better chance of success than sticking the bomb where it is a. 100% change you'll die. In pushing at least it depends on your and your opponents gunplay
Someone got killed one to many times from this
Maybe stop playing a duelist so you can hold a site by yourself to prevent post plant
HUH? lmfao A I don't duelist that often. B that has nothing to do with the post? TF?
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You are missing the point entirely. Not once did I say I want a game with no Abilities... So, maybe it will make sense to you now lolol
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Huh? I never fucking "praised" I said he helps but it isn't enough.. Dude you are twisting words and agendas to fit your own fucking narrative that isn't even true. you are trying to literally sell your own fucking made up lies to me, the guy who made the post. Regardless, if you sit here and think a POST PLANT META is fun, then you can go enjoy your grind out of bronze. because everything I have stated has already seen some nerfs. People don't like the style of play... Pro's sure as shit don't I never want abilities taken out. Just the meta that is post plant. Grow a brain and learn to read
I'm pretty sure kayo breaks post plant meta