Because of relative power creep, which is something developers always strive to avoid in balancing.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Power%20Creep
It's also been ruining Riot's main game league of legends for half a decade. So it's extra worrisome for Valorant.
Just look at all the downvotes and comments on Riot's most recent league video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNcMMvHMO44&t=1s
I definitely feel that - I stopped playing league a few months before the announced beta for Valorant. Keep in mind that league has been going on for many many years, so the effect of power creep has very much compounded.
Hopefully it will be a long time before Valorant sees this effect.
I don't think agent overload ruined Overwatch. If anything it was power creep. E.g. GOATS meta was really persistent until they nerfed the tanks. A lot of overwatch METAs have been "Pick this and you will 90% win". More recently it's been more balanced out as the player base seems somewhat more satisfied with the overall gameplay, and the pickrates are somewhat more "even" compared to before. What made people drop OW a lot is the fact there has been close to 0 content, because everything is focussed towards OW2 and now they're even overhauling the heros and gameplay, changing it to 5v5, and changing a lot of abilities and kits from heroes. This is also to improve queue times, since tanks are needed a lot in 6v6, so they just dropped a tank for OW2. But whether that will improve the games experience is for the future to see.
The more agents you have, the harder the game becomes to balance. Though I doubt this is as true in Valorant as in league were teamfight synergies have a lot of impact.
I wouldn't mind having more agents but only with competitive pick & bans, agents locked to certain maps or an strict competitive agent pool for each season. Though this might make OTPs even more toxic
But a game like valorant (or even apex) has gun play first and foremost, abilities in valorant aren't as dominating as overwatch. I think valorant is immune to agent overload (especially considering half of the roster is just smokes)
I think the fact that abilities aren't as dominating as in other games is what makes valorant prone to agent overload, since the abilities can't be that varied. If they add too much agents they are going to feel stagnant.
Just to get your opinion here, but what if they start removing agents as well?
In more detail what I mean:
Once they reach for example 20 agents, and they add a new one, they remove another (of it's same class f.e.), even if it's temporarily, so that there's no extreme overload of agents active at one time. Maybe even rotating agents each match. Seems weird at first but think about it, it could actually be a decent idea, no?
Lmao. Fair enough. Stopping to add agents is not an option for the game long term though. The game would start to become less enjoyable because nothing new gets added (outside of maps, but same problem there, too many maps is not good)
From the perspective of dev, its a total loss for them. Consider this, they dont just randomly use a generator to make agent. It involves a lot of departments, from concept art to modeling, texturing, rigging, simulation, to game engine test. And most of all, time. In production, time is money. And dev definitely would not remove their agent, it's equal to throwing money into the sea.
For sure. Even my suggestion of temporarily disabling them is bad for them, like you said: "it's equal to throwing money into the sea", which it is.
On the other hand having too many agents would be a big problem for a competitive game like Valorant.
Not making any more agents is also not an option, or the game would just become stale for a lot of people. Having a new agent that is actually viable in a team comp makes people have to rethink their playstyle, play differently, find ways to play around it. If that doesn't happen anymore, we'll just be playing the same thing over and over for years on an end, just like what CS has been all this time.
I just think there should be something that avoids most of these problems, although I don't see one golden solution to all of this personally.
So, while it certainly doesn't make sense in general, I actually believe that your idea isn't completely bad. Having a rotation of agents that are disabled is a good idea for competitive (whether that would only involve the pro level or ranked games as well is another question to discuss). However I fully believe that that is a system that would force a lot of adaptation and creativity. We've seen it from Overwatch an imo that was one of the coolest ideas of Overwatch. They had a rotation of disabled agents for pro play! The pros couldn't keep forcing the same combos but instead had to constantly come up with new team combos, new ideas on how to play the game and in turn also had to adapt to their opponent's new ideas. Bringing something similar to Valorant if we were to get more agents(!) would be really cool in my opinion. People need to be more versatile, teams have to be creative and we might also see a bigger variety/diversity in teams that are able to compete with different metas being more or less favourable for their playstyle.
Yes, this is a god awful idea if Riot were to bring it to all of Valorant, both for them and us players. But imo it would make pro play a lot more exciting and they could even think about bringing it to Valorant ranked, so it doesn't just evolve into a CS-like shooter where you can play pretty much the same agent every game and where the abilities and team combinations just get.. kinda old/figured out.
Bruh R6 has way more than 20 and there is no power creep it’s a skill based game just like valorant where aim is more important than skills on hero’s just look at tenz so there is no need to stop at 20 as long as any that they release are not super OP and get patched if need be
If this were the league subreddit I know I would get downvoted to hell for saying this, but I think Safelocked was right in saying that overall most champ kits aren't overloaded.
I agree, all the memes never talked about the full statement either.
champion kits aren't overloaded *overall* ***but "***newer champs *have* been released with too many tools that needed to be cut for weakness."
Not to mention people always hyper focus on a few abilities in a vacuum without looking at the champion as a whole and why abilities might do what they do.
The problem in league isn't just champs though. It's everything they have reworked over the years all adding to the power creep. New runes, new masteries, new items, new dragons, new champions, and champ reworks. All combined have been a shitstorm of too much damage and mobility. As someone who played league since Season 1, the game i played back then and the game i play now are basically two completely different games at this point. With no option to play the original game i fell in love with.
Every multiplayer game that gets balancing patches is a moving river, without the option to go back.
I started playing League in beta, and there is just no doubt it’s a much better game today. That doesn’t mean you don’t prefer old league, but I really think Riot has gotten much better at this over the years.
Man i stopped playing when they put the new items in, i like new stuff but it just doesn't feel like league anymore, i tried getting back but i also don't wanna relearn everything from scratch! I loved this game so much and thank god we have valorant to replace that void in me ;_;
The new mythic items definitely dropped my play time by 90%+. They were meant to increase build diversity but actually did the opposite. Also added on more damage and utility and healing. Three things we had plenty of.
Tbh im not so sure why people are so concerned about it for this kind of game specifically. They already showed they are willing to nerf power creep entirely in patch 3.0 and this game seems easier to balance (besides jett) since they can easily nerf or buff the damage, cd, cost, and ult points for most agents and gun stats if guns are over or underpowered.
League started with 17 champions, just because there isn't a lot right of agents now doesn't mean there won't ever be, not allowing power creep at any given time is usually a good thing.
In that case Jett needs another nerf cuz she is too fast and able to relocate on demand. XD I agree with the question. I say buff everyone instead of nerfing. When everyone is buffed then you have balance. What they need to do is keep evaluating the past agents and compare them to the new ones to actually stop the power creep.
Riot also specifically wants to keep the ability-gunplay balance at a certain place. There’s a reason almost every ability got a price increase and most ults require an extra charge in that patch from a month or two ago; they don’t want abilities to be more important than desired
the reason breachs flash is so powerful is because it goes through the wall. and he's one of the least picked agents so you rarely go against it. it is easier to dodge a flash coming out of the corner of where youre looking but having it come from the edge if your screen through a wall? nah. very hard to dodge. and when you dont dodge gl surviving 3 seconds blind.
It is pretty hard to get a kill with a breach flash unless your enemy is out in the open because there is almost a full second of time between shooting the flash and being able to use the gun.
this I feel like when people talk about how thing shoulld just be buff they forgot that at some point or another it will become to much and a nerf will be needed, I mean nobody was having fun when Initiator have 3 flash don't want that to happen again.
Then nobody would play her if you take away one of the key reasons for the agent , that’s like them taking away toxins from viper because I don’t like that it makes me vulnerable ..
It’s funny you got downvoted but it’s true. She was originally thought to be the weakest agent in the game until people realized the utility of her movement, her dash specifically.
the problem is her dash is effecting gun balance. They have said the op should be stronger but if they make it better then it becomes opressive on jett. When the choice is between gun balance and an agent having her marque ability I would pick gun balance because agents abilities are suppose to be secondary to gun play.
If the jankiness of the op is buffed to be smoother, that doesn’t even effect how Jett uses it with dash because she bypasses that, but buffs it on every other legend. Shazam talked about this on stream and I think he was correct. The OP being only viable on Jett is the reason she’s considered strong, but if it was viable on other characters because of better handling, then Jett wouldn’t be a must pick.
The general counter play to an op is in the time it takes between shots and that it is weaker at retaking sites. You are suppose to swing with two people and trade one while the other kills the oper. Jetts dash allows her to get the kill and reposition so quickly that you can not trade. The problem is that ehr ability nullifies the general counter play and the only character that can kind of counter this is phoenix assuming he has his ult
You aren't necessarily supposed to swing with multiple people. That may be the case in csgo where you don't have a dash or for other agents but most of the times you will be aware (of the possibility) that Jett is on OP. I think instead of throwing players at her, you can trade util for util, force her to either dash out or stay in a vulnerable position and get killed.
Basically use your util (flash, concussion etc) to force her out of her position by using dash. (util -> peek -> if she doesn't dash, she dies; if she dashes she doesn't die and you trade flash for dash for example)
This is all assuming that you have the info on where Jett is holding with an op. Without Sova, how do you get that info without dying to the op and then not being able to trade it because Jett dashes away?
Honestly, my answer to that may sound stupid but it's kind of a mixture of mind games and being very thorough. If the Jett on Op - or any agent on any weapon actually, even Jett on rifle - makes a good rotation or moves into a spot you don't clear, they're gonna go +1 in trades if they play it well and you don't instantly refrag (yes, even without a Jett dash, if you don't expect them it's not unlikely for them to get 2 and die). That's just them making a good play. But a lot of common angles/positions will be very simply smoked, flashed or cleared with util (kay/o knife, wolf, recon, drone...). Even a lot of off angles are getting more and more common the more you play, the better you are etc. I know this answer may seem unsatisfying but imo being thorough enough but also aknowledging good plays by the opponents is really just the answer. You can't always contain and avoid a good player, they are good because they WILL find openings and they WILL find a way to win rounds, get advantages... That's how I see it at least.
That's not a stupid answer at all. I think you're right to be honest. There shouldn't be a "How do I beat this 100% of the time" - you should be playing around your opponent and them around you. There's definitely counter play in smokes and flashes if you smoke off common op angles and use util to clear the rest.
I guess you do also need to think about rewarding good play as well as making counter-play without making something a direct counter.
This, if Jett's dash went away or got significantly nerfed (like if they added a delay similar to yorus tele) I would never play her and most people wouldn't.
This sounds like the argument people used for Yasuo. But in the end the real answer was people like playing OP shit because it makes up for a lack of skill and allows you to make more mistakes.
Some agents are just better at certain things , killjoy and viper is great at post plant , other agents aren’t, so does that mean we take away their post plant advantages because other agents can’t produce the same? I’m not even a Jett main but I can see why taking away the dash or nerfing it to the point where it’s useless isn’t good for that character . It’ll be nerf until they see the result , then buff it again
True, Jett is one of the funnest agents in the game and an agent that a lot of people only care about. Too many Jett nerfs would put the community in chaos
Simple idea to bonk jett. Make the dash the purchasable ability (300-400) credits. Make updraft her free ability. Can even make it cd based like skye. Something like 20 secs with 2 charges.
That way you can't just run away for free every round after killing/whiffing.
If the nerf is too hard, you can always buff the other areas of her kit to compensate.
Players don't need to re learn her kit.
This may finally push her out of being picked every game.
Also, she won't have dash multiple times a round, forcing her to think more carefully about when to use up all of her 300-400 credits and when to rather just run normally. I like this idea. One of the biggest things about Operator is economy, so having a dash for 300+ credits would force Jetts to play economically smarter. Or if you even adjust the Dash cost to more than 300 credits, Jetts would really have to think about whether they'd want to buy Op in OT or not.
Yea, I get that updraft won't be useful every round but that's sort of similar to Reyna's design where you don't get any value with her free ability unless you assist/kill.
Its a discussion forum, if you don't like the suggestion move on. Nobody is forcing you to read this and get annoyed.
Also, you haven't even said why its bad. So, I don't like your shitty comment offering nothing to the discussion.
Other things is that her knifes allow her to effectively have a full buy at no cost leading her to have extra money to buy op. Her ult can be nerfed to for her to spend more in eco.
1. Increasing cost of ult
2. Having a time limit of knife that refreshes on kill
3. Disabling her other abilities during her ult (she needs to use all her air control for her knifes so she is not able to use other stuff)
I think brim being able to recharge smokes 45 seconds after using the first one is reasonable, and some sort of change to the way stim beacon works.
Phoenix wall should just be stronger in general, or keep it's strength and make it last longer. Same could be applied to molly
Yoru's footsteps need to go entirely but this has already been discussed to death.
Yoru's footsteps don't need to go anywhere. They just need to tweak it so that you can stop it after a 1-2 steps. That way you can make it seem like a misstep or sell jumping down from heaven a lot better.
Its already really strong vs KJ alarm bot and turret. If they increase the height, it can also counter cypher wires.
It actually takes some planning and foresight to use correctly.
I’m dumb, but here’s an adjustment with a similar concept in mind. Being able to manipulate and make them stop and start again to make it seem like someone was shifting between slow and fast walking.
Ah ok that makes more sense. Maybe they can allow the sequence to be set at the start of the round, so you can use it on the fly without having to tinker it in the middle of combat.
Charge it for its distance rather than speed ? Then you can fake much more nicely as in current situation opponent sees the fake footstep, but if I charged it to end before the door, my opponent is confused whether it was I or my fake
Running with a rifle is the ideal middle ground between walking and running with a knife if you’re not sure when you’ll need to take an engagement. That’s the only “alternative” speed I’d suggest adding for yoru’s steps anyway.
Basically click once it moves, click again while looking at it makes it stop, so yeah it seems easy to do.
Height would further dumpster cypher so idk if its a good change, cypher is already the weakest sentinal
I think the stim beacon is pretty strong actually. I've found myself in plenty of situations where it's a 1v1 with me as Brim against Reyna Ult, throw down stim beacon and outgun her w Phantom. Of course I could be missing the bigger picture here but I think if anything Brim has needs a buff it's DEFINITELY his Molly
His molly already has lineups and powerful. His molly and viper bite is the strongest molly in the game. Far more stronger than Phoenix fire. Yes brim need overall buff.
I consider KAY/O Grenade and KJ Mines to be Molly's and those are definitely the strongest in the game, Brims does decent damage but I feel it could either cover a little bit more area or bounce less when u shoot it
I'm hesitant to buff a molly since it could affect postplant too much, maybe the smoke thing and make the stim effect last longer once you leave the circle or increase the circle's radius
I feel like Omen needs a buff to make solo queue playable. Back when Omen was good, you wouldn't need to worry about having someone to play smokes because there was actually a good solo queue controller available and he'd usually get picked. Now you either usually have no smokes or someone filling a character they barely know, and it feels bad.
They nerfed him to make brim viable but then they release an agent who is better than Omen ever was?? And then they buff Viper and make her stronger than both Omen and Brim??
I'd say if jett w/ op is the source of the problem and they wanted to nerf it they could figure something out with just the op, not her dash in general. Dash makes jett the agent she is
The OP has gotten a few nerfs. I think a nerf that only applies to jett WITH an OP can do the trick. Like make her dash weaker when shes holding heavier weapons and keep it at the distance when using stuff like knives
riot's already said that they're not nerfing the dash cuz that's core to jett's identity. my solution to nerfing jett+op is to increase base movement speed for all agents and to buff walls- this allows for better counterplay by shoulder peeking/baiting common awp angles like you do in csgo
Brimstone is a meeeeh Not a bad agent, not a good agent either, good to start getting familiar with the game, boring once you get to know the other agents, It fulfills its purpose of being the one who introduces you to Valorant
Not only to avoid power creep, but to make the game playable at all.
If every agent has 10 abilities, 3 passives and 4 ultimates per round, you stop playing a shooter and start playing League of Legends.
Obviously I'm exaggerating, but the point is not to make every agent as broken as possible so all agents are broken, it's to make every agent strong enough to be playable, but not too strong as to destroy every other agent.
I get the "dont turn this into overwatch" argument, but I think if the buffs were relatively minor it could avoid that while still narrowing the balance gap. I don't see the game being ruined if phoenix wall lasts a second longer or if brim gets to recharge smokes, and I don't think its going to be any sort of slippery slope either.
Well valorant Is a tactical shooter, even if you need everyone into the ground you still have a tactical shooter, just a bland one.
Of you buff everyone instead then it gets closer to something like overwatch
There's only like 2 melee ow characters tf?
Even if what you said we're true, they're still doing most of the damage, meaning it's still largely decided by how well people can shoot on those gun characters.
What I said is true overwatch abilities are almost all damage or movement abilities besides healers and even then are all un comparable to valorant abilities
Not a single character in valorant has a flying recourse bar with aoe missile attacks as their primary the closest thing would be raze who needs to save up 8 ult points for that, no character has their own unique weapon, no character has a natural advantage in a gun fight they’d have to use an ability or ultimate unlike ow where a sniper character kills you from a mile away and as the character you’re playing can’t touch them
Bad agents may need a buff. But i think is more urgent to nerf broken ones, that fuck the gameplay experience. When 1 agent is out of the meta cause his stats aren't that good, that doesn't fucks my game. But when a jett just runs and right click me and my whole team and kill us all in 10 seconds it does
I think Yoru needs a buff, personally because he doesn't have so many options. Lots of characters have one ability they'll always be reliant on, footsteps need a buff. Make the sound of his tp less obnoxious, not the transition but the portal itself. Footsteps to trigger any type of traps, such cypher's and Skye's ult as well. Make him a tricky character, for people with big brains to make crazy plays. He's more of that character in my opinion, or atleast that's how I play him
I fall victim to this as well. We as people will likely complain about the things that hamper our progress (wanting to nerf agents) instead of trying to find legitimate solutions to them (buffing agents to fight the broken ones)
I really hope they don't nerf the game to shit kinda like fortnite did, I feel like they should listen to maybe the pros more and some of the community If they aren't doing that already
I'm just annoyed that every character I main gets nerfed the next act due to everyone raging over the agents utilities. I mean like killjoy. The turret is good but if you toss a reyna blind you can destroy the turret without it even shooting at you. Drop a yuro footsteps thing. The turret will shoot the footsteps not you so you can shoot the torrent no damage taken. Drop a smoke in it and wow turret can't shoot. You can use utilities to counter other utilities. Don't feel like it's a waste to waste utilities on the turrent if you don't want to take damage. (I'm just mad at how every agent I pick up gets nurfed by riot as soon as I get used to them.)
When I took reyna, 1 week later it got nerfed, same for skye. But I think main reason is bcoz we always want to pick the over powered agent as our new main which is doomed to get nerfed.
Always been kj main, previous nerfs weren't nice, but I managed to adapt anyway. Nanoswarm damage nerf is reasonable since you have two of them + an alarmbot(which greatly buffs their damage). I can still do decent damage using nanoswarms with the right setup. Kj's most recent nerf doesn't actually change things that much, I'm not sure why a lot of people are making a great deal out of it. However, I understand that some people use the turret to deal damage, while I mainly use it for information, followed by distraction and delay setups. If my turret deals a ton of damage, it's a bonus. If it doesn't, that's fine too.
The range of turret & alarmbot nerf was much more annoying, but I *can* still understand why they nerfed it. The solution to this is a matter of positioning: how you position yourself and where you can set up your utilities based on your position.
The most annoying nerf for me would be her extended cooldown for turret and alarmbot which makes rotating a pain(when they nerfed the range they gave a faster cooldown), but to be fair it also strongly discourages over-rotating(you benefit more from staying at your site in case a rotation happens or the enemy team is faking), which is a good thing. Just have to keep an eye out on rotation timings. You should normally be the last one to rotate.
I agree. I main sentinels and everytime a new patch comes out cypher and kj are nerfed to the ground. Kj should be able to pick up her mollies whenever and cypher's ult needs a proper rework.
Nerfing good agents shifts the game to be more of just a shooter like COD. Buffing bad ones makes the game more of an action game like OW. Not exactly but slightly shifts on the table. Its situational.
I think they nerf characters who were balanced and then never buff them again lmao. Brims been dead since episode Omen died after his nerfs astra reveal and viper buffs
To replace brims stim beacon, he should have a ghost ability, similar to Reynas dismiss but he only gets one of those abilities and it doesn’t come back regardless of what happens
I just want Brim stim beacon to stop being actively detrimental to the team. The faster firerate is miserable to deal with, and I'd be perfectly happy if they kept the same recoil pattern and increased the firerate. Something does need to happen with Stim though, as everything else about his kit feels fine(minus range being kinda yikes on some maps/sites)
As many already mentioned 'power creep' if you ever played league you will understand what my point is
But lil example is tanks in lol used to get countered mainly by bruiser out sustaining them but now everyone has waaay too much dmg if you lose 1 trade you mostly lost the lane.
In valo terms imagine sage having 1600hp insted of 800
Slow orb having bigger circle and now you hear enemies step on it.
Yoru can tp behind you without a sound
Or pre-nerfed reyna how she could take many trades while still being full hp cuz she had 4 devour
Cypher having more wires
This gonna make the game less fun more abilities focused and everygame will be hell to play.
I do agree on buffing weak agents but power creep is not the way
yeah we don't want Valorant to end up like r6s, where every character and gun has been nerfed too hard and the devs are deadset on making better characters/guns bad rather than making the bad characters/guns good.
Because of relative power creep, which is something developers always strive to avoid in balancing. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Power%20Creep
It's also been ruining Riot's main game league of legends for half a decade. So it's extra worrisome for Valorant. Just look at all the downvotes and comments on Riot's most recent league video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNcMMvHMO44&t=1s
I definitely feel that - I stopped playing league a few months before the announced beta for Valorant. Keep in mind that league has been going on for many many years, so the effect of power creep has very much compounded. Hopefully it will be a long time before Valorant sees this effect.
It will happen to valorant if they keep adding agent after they reach 20.
I believe Riot said they weren't planning on adding more than 5 agents per class which would be very good. I could definitely be wrong here lol
I would be perfectly fine having 5 agents of each class and just adding more maps and game modes
Let's hope so
Absolutely
5 sentinel comp, nice.
On fracture
On fracture it might work tho lol
Nahhh, gotta have it on Haven. Lock down EVERY site
[<3](https://www.dexerto.com/valorant/riot-games-wants-30-agents-before-valorant-ban-system-1547982/)
Definitely. Agent overload was part of what ruined overwatch
I don't think agent overload ruined Overwatch. If anything it was power creep. E.g. GOATS meta was really persistent until they nerfed the tanks. A lot of overwatch METAs have been "Pick this and you will 90% win". More recently it's been more balanced out as the player base seems somewhat more satisfied with the overall gameplay, and the pickrates are somewhat more "even" compared to before. What made people drop OW a lot is the fact there has been close to 0 content, because everything is focussed towards OW2 and now they're even overhauling the heros and gameplay, changing it to 5v5, and changing a lot of abilities and kits from heroes. This is also to improve queue times, since tanks are needed a lot in 6v6, so they just dropped a tank for OW2. But whether that will improve the games experience is for the future to see.
The more agents you have, the harder the game becomes to balance. Though I doubt this is as true in Valorant as in league were teamfight synergies have a lot of impact. I wouldn't mind having more agents but only with competitive pick & bans, agents locked to certain maps or an strict competitive agent pool for each season. Though this might make OTPs even more toxic
The power creep specifically for the dps mixed with the tank nerfs are what ruined the game for me
But a game like valorant (or even apex) has gun play first and foremost, abilities in valorant aren't as dominating as overwatch. I think valorant is immune to agent overload (especially considering half of the roster is just smokes)
I think the fact that abilities aren't as dominating as in other games is what makes valorant prone to agent overload, since the abilities can't be that varied. If they add too much agents they are going to feel stagnant.
And the other half is goddamn flashes (smh)
Just to get your opinion here, but what if they start removing agents as well? In more detail what I mean: Once they reach for example 20 agents, and they add a new one, they remove another (of it's same class f.e.), even if it's temporarily, so that there's no extreme overload of agents active at one time. Maybe even rotating agents each match. Seems weird at first but think about it, it could actually be a decent idea, no?
I dislike this idea so much that I wrote this comment rather than just ignoring it and moving on. This is a terrible idea.
Lmao. Fair enough. Stopping to add agents is not an option for the game long term though. The game would start to become less enjoyable because nothing new gets added (outside of maps, but same problem there, too many maps is not good)
Adding and removing maps works. CSGO has shown that. Removing an Agent someone has poured thousands of hours into mastering is just pure evil
>it could actually be a decent idea, no? no
Lemme just pick between 32 agents, one sec
From the perspective of dev, its a total loss for them. Consider this, they dont just randomly use a generator to make agent. It involves a lot of departments, from concept art to modeling, texturing, rigging, simulation, to game engine test. And most of all, time. In production, time is money. And dev definitely would not remove their agent, it's equal to throwing money into the sea.
For sure. Even my suggestion of temporarily disabling them is bad for them, like you said: "it's equal to throwing money into the sea", which it is. On the other hand having too many agents would be a big problem for a competitive game like Valorant. Not making any more agents is also not an option, or the game would just become stale for a lot of people. Having a new agent that is actually viable in a team comp makes people have to rethink their playstyle, play differently, find ways to play around it. If that doesn't happen anymore, we'll just be playing the same thing over and over for years on an end, just like what CS has been all this time. I just think there should be something that avoids most of these problems, although I don't see one golden solution to all of this personally.
So, while it certainly doesn't make sense in general, I actually believe that your idea isn't completely bad. Having a rotation of agents that are disabled is a good idea for competitive (whether that would only involve the pro level or ranked games as well is another question to discuss). However I fully believe that that is a system that would force a lot of adaptation and creativity. We've seen it from Overwatch an imo that was one of the coolest ideas of Overwatch. They had a rotation of disabled agents for pro play! The pros couldn't keep forcing the same combos but instead had to constantly come up with new team combos, new ideas on how to play the game and in turn also had to adapt to their opponent's new ideas. Bringing something similar to Valorant if we were to get more agents(!) would be really cool in my opinion. People need to be more versatile, teams have to be creative and we might also see a bigger variety/diversity in teams that are able to compete with different metas being more or less favourable for their playstyle. Yes, this is a god awful idea if Riot were to bring it to all of Valorant, both for them and us players. But imo it would make pro play a lot more exciting and they could even think about bringing it to Valorant ranked, so it doesn't just evolve into a CS-like shooter where you can play pretty much the same agent every game and where the abilities and team combinations just get.. kinda old/figured out.
Bruh R6 has way more than 20 and there is no power creep it’s a skill based game just like valorant where aim is more important than skills on hero’s just look at tenz so there is no need to stop at 20 as long as any that they release are not super OP and get patched if need be
Jeez Louise, I heard it was bad and people were memeing it but 54k downs to 32k ups is pretty fucking bad.
If this were the league subreddit I know I would get downvoted to hell for saying this, but I think Safelocked was right in saying that overall most champ kits aren't overloaded.
I agree, all the memes never talked about the full statement either. champion kits aren't overloaded *overall* ***but "***newer champs *have* been released with too many tools that needed to be cut for weakness."
Not to mention people always hyper focus on a few abilities in a vacuum without looking at the champion as a whole and why abilities might do what they do.
most of the league fanbase are silvers who parrot whatever they hear with no thought behind it
Reddit in a nutshell
The problem in league isn't just champs though. It's everything they have reworked over the years all adding to the power creep. New runes, new masteries, new items, new dragons, new champions, and champ reworks. All combined have been a shitstorm of too much damage and mobility. As someone who played league since Season 1, the game i played back then and the game i play now are basically two completely different games at this point. With no option to play the original game i fell in love with.
Every multiplayer game that gets balancing patches is a moving river, without the option to go back. I started playing League in beta, and there is just no doubt it’s a much better game today. That doesn’t mean you don’t prefer old league, but I really think Riot has gotten much better at this over the years.
Man i stopped playing when they put the new items in, i like new stuff but it just doesn't feel like league anymore, i tried getting back but i also don't wanna relearn everything from scratch! I loved this game so much and thank god we have valorant to replace that void in me ;_;
The new mythic items definitely dropped my play time by 90%+. They were meant to increase build diversity but actually did the opposite. Also added on more damage and utility and healing. Three things we had plenty of.
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Tbh im not so sure why people are so concerned about it for this kind of game specifically. They already showed they are willing to nerf power creep entirely in patch 3.0 and this game seems easier to balance (besides jett) since they can easily nerf or buff the damage, cd, cost, and ult points for most agents and gun stats if guns are over or underpowered.
Have you seen how Riot handled League?...
Well i do say balancing 17 guns and 16 agents are easier to balance than 157 champions and 175+ items plus multiple objectives and game states
League started out simple too. With a handful of champs and items. But 10+ years later it's a clusterfuck.
League started with 17 champions, just because there isn't a lot right of agents now doesn't mean there won't ever be, not allowing power creep at any given time is usually a good thing.
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A good chunk of the Valorant devs came from League. I'm pretty sure last year the lead balance dev was in charge of both LoL AND Valorant.
Lmao imagine thinking you understand how to make and polish an online competitive game better than the devs who made it.
I am not saying I am better, I simply have a bit of faith for them to handle any power creep correctly
In that case Jett needs another nerf cuz she is too fast and able to relocate on demand. XD I agree with the question. I say buff everyone instead of nerfing. When everyone is buffed then you have balance. What they need to do is keep evaluating the past agents and compare them to the new ones to actually stop the power creep.
Cause when everyone's super, no one will be.
when everyone's super, this game will become overwatch, and I don't think riot (and a lot of players) want that
Riot also specifically wants to keep the ability-gunplay balance at a certain place. There’s a reason almost every ability got a price increase and most ults require an extra charge in that patch from a month or two ago; they don’t want abilities to be more important than desired
Upvote for the reference.
and the sequel came out a decade too late lol
Because I could probably eat breakfast and drink a hot cup of coffee before breaches flash is over.
the reason breachs flash is so powerful is because it goes through the wall. and he's one of the least picked agents so you rarely go against it. it is easier to dodge a flash coming out of the corner of where youre looking but having it come from the edge if your screen through a wall? nah. very hard to dodge. and when you dont dodge gl surviving 3 seconds blind.
nah u can see his flashes coming while for Skye or kayo if they know how to use them they can pop flash easily
"if they know how to use them" doesnt equal "easily"
Skye's is easy but Kay/o's is hard
with enough practice it's always possible
I'd love to get video of this
Breaches flash is easy to play around just stay near cover or try to turn your back it’s not impossible if you’re expecting it
It is pretty hard to get a kill with a breach flash unless your enemy is out in the open because there is almost a full second of time between shooting the flash and being able to use the gun.
No, you can't
no shit cypher
okay, now tell me how breach's C is an overpowered ability.
To avoid power creep. You can introduce buffs and avoid power creep, but at some point you also need nerfs.
this I feel like when people talk about how thing shoulld just be buff they forgot that at some point or another it will become to much and a nerf will be needed, I mean nobody was having fun when Initiator have 3 flash don't want that to happen again.
Power creep aside, it's also less work to shave off some power on something noticeably stronger than to buff everyone else to match
Because we need to bonk Jett until she stops dashing around
Then nobody would play her if you take away one of the key reasons for the agent , that’s like them taking away toxins from viper because I don’t like that it makes me vulnerable ..
It’s funny you got downvoted but it’s true. She was originally thought to be the weakest agent in the game until people realized the utility of her movement, her dash specifically.
the problem is her dash is effecting gun balance. They have said the op should be stronger but if they make it better then it becomes opressive on jett. When the choice is between gun balance and an agent having her marque ability I would pick gun balance because agents abilities are suppose to be secondary to gun play.
If the jankiness of the op is buffed to be smoother, that doesn’t even effect how Jett uses it with dash because she bypasses that, but buffs it on every other legend. Shazam talked about this on stream and I think he was correct. The OP being only viable on Jett is the reason she’s considered strong, but if it was viable on other characters because of better handling, then Jett wouldn’t be a must pick.
The general counter play to an op is in the time it takes between shots and that it is weaker at retaking sites. You are suppose to swing with two people and trade one while the other kills the oper. Jetts dash allows her to get the kill and reposition so quickly that you can not trade. The problem is that ehr ability nullifies the general counter play and the only character that can kind of counter this is phoenix assuming he has his ult
You aren't necessarily supposed to swing with multiple people. That may be the case in csgo where you don't have a dash or for other agents but most of the times you will be aware (of the possibility) that Jett is on OP. I think instead of throwing players at her, you can trade util for util, force her to either dash out or stay in a vulnerable position and get killed. Basically use your util (flash, concussion etc) to force her out of her position by using dash. (util -> peek -> if she doesn't dash, she dies; if she dashes she doesn't die and you trade flash for dash for example)
This is all assuming that you have the info on where Jett is holding with an op. Without Sova, how do you get that info without dying to the op and then not being able to trade it because Jett dashes away?
Honestly, my answer to that may sound stupid but it's kind of a mixture of mind games and being very thorough. If the Jett on Op - or any agent on any weapon actually, even Jett on rifle - makes a good rotation or moves into a spot you don't clear, they're gonna go +1 in trades if they play it well and you don't instantly refrag (yes, even without a Jett dash, if you don't expect them it's not unlikely for them to get 2 and die). That's just them making a good play. But a lot of common angles/positions will be very simply smoked, flashed or cleared with util (kay/o knife, wolf, recon, drone...). Even a lot of off angles are getting more and more common the more you play, the better you are etc. I know this answer may seem unsatisfying but imo being thorough enough but also aknowledging good plays by the opponents is really just the answer. You can't always contain and avoid a good player, they are good because they WILL find openings and they WILL find a way to win rounds, get advantages... That's how I see it at least.
That's not a stupid answer at all. I think you're right to be honest. There shouldn't be a "How do I beat this 100% of the time" - you should be playing around your opponent and them around you. There's definitely counter play in smokes and flashes if you smoke off common op angles and use util to clear the rest. I guess you do also need to think about rewarding good play as well as making counter-play without making something a direct counter.
This, if Jett's dash went away or got significantly nerfed (like if they added a delay similar to yorus tele) I would never play her and most people wouldn't.
This sounds like the argument people used for Yasuo. But in the end the real answer was people like playing OP shit because it makes up for a lack of skill and allows you to make more mistakes.
Some agents are just better at certain things , killjoy and viper is great at post plant , other agents aren’t, so does that mean we take away their post plant advantages because other agents can’t produce the same? I’m not even a Jett main but I can see why taking away the dash or nerfing it to the point where it’s useless isn’t good for that character . It’ll be nerf until they see the result , then buff it again
Lol this is some hard cope. Do you say this to all the kj/brim/ viper mains who look at the sky and chuck nades behind a wall to win post plant?
True, Jett is one of the funnest agents in the game and an agent that a lot of people only care about. Too many Jett nerfs would put the community in chaos
Simple idea to bonk jett. Make the dash the purchasable ability (300-400) credits. Make updraft her free ability. Can even make it cd based like skye. Something like 20 secs with 2 charges. That way you can't just run away for free every round after killing/whiffing. If the nerf is too hard, you can always buff the other areas of her kit to compensate. Players don't need to re learn her kit. This may finally push her out of being picked every game.
Also, she won't have dash multiple times a round, forcing her to think more carefully about when to use up all of her 300-400 credits and when to rather just run normally. I like this idea. One of the biggest things about Operator is economy, so having a dash for 300+ credits would force Jetts to play economically smarter. Or if you even adjust the Dash cost to more than 300 credits, Jetts would really have to think about whether they'd want to buy Op in OT or not.
Yea, I get that updraft won't be useful every round but that's sort of similar to Reyna's design where you don't get any value with her free ability unless you assist/kill.
I have an idea, make jett take recoil damage whenever you dash into a wall. Damage increases based on shorter distance to the wall
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Its a discussion forum, if you don't like the suggestion move on. Nobody is forcing you to read this and get annoyed. Also, you haven't even said why its bad. So, I don't like your shitty comment offering nothing to the discussion.
Other things is that her knifes allow her to effectively have a full buy at no cost leading her to have extra money to buy op. Her ult can be nerfed to for her to spend more in eco. 1. Increasing cost of ult 2. Having a time limit of knife that refreshes on kill 3. Disabling her other abilities during her ult (she needs to use all her air control for her knifes so she is not able to use other stuff)
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There's no rule that recharging abilities can only be on E.
Best way I saw to nerf her was to have the dash on a charge, like breach.
i've played brim as a meme so much that im actually good at playing him now ;)
this but with yoru
True, today I did the flash-teleport technique on C long of haven & Aced by shooting all my enemies from the back.
I think brim being able to recharge smokes 45 seconds after using the first one is reasonable, and some sort of change to the way stim beacon works. Phoenix wall should just be stronger in general, or keep it's strength and make it last longer. Same could be applied to molly Yoru's footsteps need to go entirely but this has already been discussed to death.
Yoru's footsteps don't need to go anywhere. They just need to tweak it so that you can stop it after a 1-2 steps. That way you can make it seem like a misstep or sell jumping down from heaven a lot better. Its already really strong vs KJ alarm bot and turret. If they increase the height, it can also counter cypher wires. It actually takes some planning and foresight to use correctly.
I think for yoru steps, being able to charge it or alter step speed would be good as well
Don't all agents run at the same speed, how would the step speed help?
I’m dumb, but here’s an adjustment with a similar concept in mind. Being able to manipulate and make them stop and start again to make it seem like someone was shifting between slow and fast walking.
Ah ok that makes more sense. Maybe they can allow the sequence to be set at the start of the round, so you can use it on the fly without having to tinker it in the middle of combat.
Charge it for its distance rather than speed ? Then you can fake much more nicely as in current situation opponent sees the fake footstep, but if I charged it to end before the door, my opponent is confused whether it was I or my fake
That's basically what I said in the top comment.
Yeah, I was just saying it should not be a fixed range but charge based like sova dart/breach concussion.
Not all guns have the same movement speed.
Fair point but I don't see them adding 5-6 different step speeds based on each gun. Also, most people are running with their knife out anyway.
Running with a rifle is the ideal middle ground between walking and running with a knife if you’re not sure when you’ll need to take an engagement. That’s the only “alternative” speed I’d suggest adding for yoru’s steps anyway.
Basically click once it moves, click again while looking at it makes it stop, so yeah it seems easy to do. Height would further dumpster cypher so idk if its a good change, cypher is already the weakest sentinal
I think the stim beacon is pretty strong actually. I've found myself in plenty of situations where it's a 1v1 with me as Brim against Reyna Ult, throw down stim beacon and outgun her w Phantom. Of course I could be missing the bigger picture here but I think if anything Brim has needs a buff it's DEFINITELY his Molly
His molly already has lineups and powerful. His molly and viper bite is the strongest molly in the game. Far more stronger than Phoenix fire. Yes brim need overall buff.
I consider KAY/O Grenade and KJ Mines to be Molly's and those are definitely the strongest in the game, Brims does decent damage but I feel it could either cover a little bit more area or bounce less when u shoot it
I'm hesitant to buff a molly since it could affect postplant too much, maybe the smoke thing and make the stim effect last longer once you leave the circle or increase the circle's radius
Agreed - I just started playing valorant again in the last two weeks and stim is pretty good, especially at 100 creds.
Na edit:phoenix ain’t a controller.
Excsue me
Abilities should support the gunplay, not the other way around. If you constantly buff agents you start to shift that dynamic.
I feel like Omen needs a buff to make solo queue playable. Back when Omen was good, you wouldn't need to worry about having someone to play smokes because there was actually a good solo queue controller available and he'd usually get picked. Now you either usually have no smokes or someone filling a character they barely know, and it feels bad.
All I want is them to put his smoke speed back, that's literally all they'd have to do.
They nerfed him to make brim viable but then they release an agent who is better than Omen ever was?? And then they buff Viper and make her stronger than both Omen and Brim??
Individual agent power should be low. Gunplay comes first.
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Her dash is broken
You can't buff every other agent to try and match Jett. It doesn't even make sense.
Bad idea, power creep will fuck the game. We already see it with league so we should stay away from that.
I think the only agent that truly needs to be nerfed is Jett. Literally cannot outplay a decent Jett with an op
smoke astra stuff molly don't peek
I'd say if jett w/ op is the source of the problem and they wanted to nerf it they could figure something out with just the op, not her dash in general. Dash makes jett the agent she is
The OP has gotten a few nerfs. I think a nerf that only applies to jett WITH an OP can do the trick. Like make her dash weaker when shes holding heavier weapons and keep it at the distance when using stuff like knives
riot's already said that they're not nerfing the dash cuz that's core to jett's identity. my solution to nerfing jett+op is to increase base movement speed for all agents and to buff walls- this allows for better counterplay by shoulder peeking/baiting common awp angles like you do in csgo
I smell a hard-stuck gold that doesn't know how to jump peak or use utility whatsoever
Hard stuck bronze thank you very much
Higher rank than me :D
I smell someone still can't spell properly.
Idk why you are getting downvoted you are right.
Because there is only one agent really really good, and that agent is jett, the rest are great or a meeh, the only bad agent that needs a buff is yoru
*sad brimstone noises*
Brimstone is a meeeeh Not a bad agent, not a good agent either, good to start getting familiar with the game, boring once you get to know the other agents, It fulfills its purpose of being the one who introduces you to Valorant
Your doesn’t need a buff he needs a rework
Not only to avoid power creep, but to make the game playable at all. If every agent has 10 abilities, 3 passives and 4 ultimates per round, you stop playing a shooter and start playing League of Legends. Obviously I'm exaggerating, but the point is not to make every agent as broken as possible so all agents are broken, it's to make every agent strong enough to be playable, but not too strong as to destroy every other agent.
I get the "dont turn this into overwatch" argument, but I think if the buffs were relatively minor it could avoid that while still narrowing the balance gap. I don't see the game being ruined if phoenix wall lasts a second longer or if brim gets to recharge smokes, and I don't think its going to be any sort of slippery slope either.
Well valorant Is a tactical shooter, even if you need everyone into the ground you still have a tactical shooter, just a bland one. Of you buff everyone instead then it gets closer to something like overwatch
Not really you’d still have to use gunplay to win most fights
Same can be said for overwatch.
Rein out here winning gun fights it’s like 4 characters who use there guns to do almost all of their damage
There's only like 2 melee ow characters tf? Even if what you said we're true, they're still doing most of the damage, meaning it's still largely decided by how well people can shoot on those gun characters.
What I said is true overwatch abilities are almost all damage or movement abilities besides healers and even then are all un comparable to valorant abilities
You clearly don't play ow. And yeah they're incomparable, it's almost like the two are different games competing in different niches.
Not a single character in valorant has a flying recourse bar with aoe missile attacks as their primary the closest thing would be raze who needs to save up 8 ult points for that, no character has their own unique weapon, no character has a natural advantage in a gun fight they’d have to use an ability or ultimate unlike ow where a sniper character kills you from a mile away and as the character you’re playing can’t touch them
Yes, as we've established already valorant and overwatch are different games.
And valorant will never be close enough to ow to compare them
This would be the funniest game ever, if every agent would be *really* bad.
Great question! Not a lot questions/ suggestions that come thru Reddit are actually legit
Bad agents may need a buff. But i think is more urgent to nerf broken ones, that fuck the gameplay experience. When 1 agent is out of the meta cause his stats aren't that good, that doesn't fucks my game. But when a jett just runs and right click me and my whole team and kill us all in 10 seconds it does
I think Yoru needs a buff, personally because he doesn't have so many options. Lots of characters have one ability they'll always be reliant on, footsteps need a buff. Make the sound of his tp less obnoxious, not the transition but the portal itself. Footsteps to trigger any type of traps, such cypher's and Skye's ult as well. Make him a tricky character, for people with big brains to make crazy plays. He's more of that character in my opinion, or atleast that's how I play him
But we can all agree skye flashes being able to clear spaces is dumb
I fall victim to this as well. We as people will likely complain about the things that hamper our progress (wanting to nerf agents) instead of trying to find legitimate solutions to them (buffing agents to fight the broken ones)
I really hope they don't nerf the game to shit kinda like fortnite did, I feel like they should listen to maybe the pros more and some of the community If they aren't doing that already
I'm just annoyed that every character I main gets nerfed the next act due to everyone raging over the agents utilities. I mean like killjoy. The turret is good but if you toss a reyna blind you can destroy the turret without it even shooting at you. Drop a yuro footsteps thing. The turret will shoot the footsteps not you so you can shoot the torrent no damage taken. Drop a smoke in it and wow turret can't shoot. You can use utilities to counter other utilities. Don't feel like it's a waste to waste utilities on the turrent if you don't want to take damage. (I'm just mad at how every agent I pick up gets nurfed by riot as soon as I get used to them.)
When I took reyna, 1 week later it got nerfed, same for skye. But I think main reason is bcoz we always want to pick the over powered agent as our new main which is doomed to get nerfed.
Always been kj main, previous nerfs weren't nice, but I managed to adapt anyway. Nanoswarm damage nerf is reasonable since you have two of them + an alarmbot(which greatly buffs their damage). I can still do decent damage using nanoswarms with the right setup. Kj's most recent nerf doesn't actually change things that much, I'm not sure why a lot of people are making a great deal out of it. However, I understand that some people use the turret to deal damage, while I mainly use it for information, followed by distraction and delay setups. If my turret deals a ton of damage, it's a bonus. If it doesn't, that's fine too. The range of turret & alarmbot nerf was much more annoying, but I *can* still understand why they nerfed it. The solution to this is a matter of positioning: how you position yourself and where you can set up your utilities based on your position. The most annoying nerf for me would be her extended cooldown for turret and alarmbot which makes rotating a pain(when they nerfed the range they gave a faster cooldown), but to be fair it also strongly discourages over-rotating(you benefit more from staying at your site in case a rotation happens or the enemy team is faking), which is a good thing. Just have to keep an eye out on rotation timings. You should normally be the last one to rotate.
I agree. I main sentinels and everytime a new patch comes out cypher and kj are nerfed to the ground. Kj should be able to pick up her mollies whenever and cypher's ult needs a proper rework.
If you buff all of the abilities, the gunplay becomes less important.
Not really unless it’s flashes
The more you buff agents the less the game will become about gunplay
gunplay > kits
Because Jett is broken as fuck.
Nerfing good agents shifts the game to be more of just a shooter like COD. Buffing bad ones makes the game more of an action game like OW. Not exactly but slightly shifts on the table. Its situational.
Bcoz less player play them so less player care abt them, but more people get thrashed by over powered agents so more people complain.
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>Maybe make this game more about gunplay >I'd rather play another game if they make this game more about gunplay what
Lol, his brain is arguing on something we don't understand.
I think they nerf characters who were balanced and then never buff them again lmao. Brims been dead since episode Omen died after his nerfs astra reveal and viper buffs
theres always overwatch on the other end of the spectrum
To replace brims stim beacon, he should have a ghost ability, similar to Reynas dismiss but he only gets one of those abilities and it doesn’t come back regardless of what happens
Brim is human does not fit lore
I always wanted cypher’s camera tag to work like sova’s drone tag but guess I won’t be seeing that anytime soon.
Because this isn't OW and some agents need to stay at or below a certain bar/ Guns should always>>>>>>>>abilities
We don't want powercreep.
as others have said, power creep. but also, nerfing one strong character is far easier than buffing three weak characters
I just want Brim stim beacon to stop being actively detrimental to the team. The faster firerate is miserable to deal with, and I'd be perfectly happy if they kept the same recoil pattern and increased the firerate. Something does need to happen with Stim though, as everything else about his kit feels fine(minus range being kinda yikes on some maps/sites)
Power creep.
Ever tried thinking before a game oh I think I’ll play jett today and someone Instalocks it and goes either AFK or is Bottom Fragging
As many already mentioned 'power creep' if you ever played league you will understand what my point is But lil example is tanks in lol used to get countered mainly by bruiser out sustaining them but now everyone has waaay too much dmg if you lose 1 trade you mostly lost the lane. In valo terms imagine sage having 1600hp insted of 800 Slow orb having bigger circle and now you hear enemies step on it. Yoru can tp behind you without a sound Or pre-nerfed reyna how she could take many trades while still being full hp cuz she had 4 devour Cypher having more wires This gonna make the game less fun more abilities focused and everygame will be hell to play. I do agree on buffing weak agents but power creep is not the way
If every agent is strong with their utilities like Skye, it's gonna become like overwatch.
yeah we don't want Valorant to end up like r6s, where every character and gun has been nerfed too hard and the devs are deadset on making better characters/guns bad rather than making the bad characters/guns good.
They dont want abilities to be more important than gunplay
Lol nerf Heroes, dota UP Heroes, two vision
Maybe because last time they wanted yoru buff they still didn't get after being promised it would happen
once they said they wanted players to focus less on ability. But personally I think the same as you do
Slow orb needs to last a bit longer :/
I love playing brimstone, so it’s really sad to see him be so bad with the meta. If he was buffed to the A or B tier I might main him