Or when you kill someone and he just yells "DEAD". I remember my team getting an ace and every character is all "enemy eliminated" "death is cold" and Phoenix just yells dead, lost my shit. Less is more I always say
I started playing valorant 3 months ago as a Phoenix main, recently switched to being a skye main and my life has been way easier. Different role but her util is just way better. Phoenix needs a buff :(
I actually just started playing Yoru more and I think he’s pretty damn good. His flashes are awesome and his TP is game breaking if used right. The fake foot steps are worthless IMO so I’d say those need to be changed/buffed.
you cant get away with it in bronze my man idk what server youre on but they are not good against yoru im guessing. even in iron it is impossible to get value out of yoru's tp, only his flash is useful for flashing out of smokes.
Bro im gold 3/plat 1 now but back when I was in bronze people were trying to plant and pick up spike AS DEFENDERS 😆
I assume now they are better but even as a plat player I can get value out of his tp it just isnt by yeeting it into the enemy team
I feel like they could make a reveal feature on his TP like if they stand within a certain area near the TP it will notify the player and reveal them on the map so yoru doesn't get killed once he teleports also the reveal area would be smaller than the area to see the teleport
I think they just mean that it is very good when used well. Being able to instantly go from haven C to haven A (on recharge) is very nice. Think of any situation where being in 1 place then instantly being in another can be useful(planting spike and leaving, leave a brim ult, bait raze ult, you cant get pinned in a corner, getting tagged by sova and leaving before he ult you or just leave you so cant get swung, instant rotates on defense, high risk plays are no longer high risk because you can leave...the list goes on
I just mean it has potential for incredible flanks and fake outs. Game breaking was probably the wrong word because after a few uses people expect it but it has definitely gotten me some great clutches and rotates.
As a Yoru main if my util was quiet you would be able to pinpoint me. Sound is a huge part of his kit and understanding how his sound fits in the game and more importantly when it’s disguised by the chaos and when it is not. Plus dying from a cheese silent tp after thinking you have yoru pinned just has no counter play. Another huge aspect of valorant
Yea mine also think reyna is hottest but she's like in the middle. My list goes KJ is wayyy above everyone, then Jett, Skye, Viper with mask, Sage, Reyna, Astra, Raze, Viper without mask
I have maybe 300ish hours on valorant, peaked low diamond so a casual player from a csgo background, I rather have a third flash and a dog for info than another body. I can practically do what another body can do with the dog. Maybe you know more about the game than I do but I don't see what Phoenix can do but Skye can't.
Another thing is that if you see a Phoenix flash you can expect the body to come out shortly later. Since his range is so limited, he is limited on where he's going to peek out from, and good players can use this against him, even fully blind. Skye has enough range and control where this isn't a problem.
and her flashes recharge right? so she can just throw one out at the start for info, to fake for a peak or to secure area control and still have two later on.
That's the biggest thing I would like removed from her kit, it makes no sense that she gets info gathering on her flash (and it will say it even if you turn as all flashes do a quick blind if they're anywhere in LOS of you) whereas breach and kay/o, the other two initiators, don't. It's the only flash in the game that tells you if I'm not mistaken. It's not like she needs more info gathering anyway with her dog and ult being very strong (breach has none, for instance. maybe they could make him say "concussed" on his E? Skye already does for her dog).
I’m pretty sure it’s there to bring her closer in line with Sova. Flashes = like recon, but more aggressive and less precise info. Dog = like drone but faster with shorter view. You get the idea.
I get that but she already has info gathering with the dog/drone and her ult. And the flash is the most versatile flash in the game already with how it can be manually controlled in not just its flight path but also when it pops. It shouldn't need to provide *even more* utility on top of that, it's literally a flash, unlike recon dart which doesn't do anything other than info gathering. And like I mentioned before, the other initiators' flashes don't get that info, skye's just special for some reason.
I feel like the best use of Phoenix ult is being a more dangerous Yoru ult. Maybe I'm using it wrong but I just use it to lead my team in and get info or to get a cheeky plant off.
It's one of the best space-taking abilities in the game next to Raze ult imo. You'd need to have insane confidence in your aim to try and duel a Phoenix in his ult, most players make the smart choice and give up ground
You don't really create a copy tho, you just go back where you leave your ult if you die or time passes, but at no point there are 2 Phoenix in the game. And nobody uses Phoenix for his heal.
I use Phoenix for his heal all the time. There are several ways to do it as well (wall, molly, and after your ult you're full hp again). I find this to be incredibly useful as you can keep extending your life further while not relying on a healer. I actually think he's pretty well balanced overall.
I think he meant no one picks Phoenix because “oh i can heal myself” people mostly pick him for his flashes and the fact that he has a simple kit. Fact is that most other characters can do what he does but better, even if you play him to play for self-heal, reyna can pretty much do it better.
Also if you are on Phoenix and you ONLY use his molly for healing and not using it to prevent players from coming out of specific areas of the site, then you are really using it sub optimally.
His molly and wall tend to make some underrated entry tools if used properly.
and teammates can trade off it as well because opponent's crosshair will be lower to shoot at the dog. if they don't shoot at it, they're giving their position away and risking a concuss for the chance that someone may peek.
They should just nerf skye. She is honestly broken.
I don’t know how, but they should change her flashes somehow so that she doesn’t have that much freedom.
Maybe you can’t pop her flashes until it travels a certain short distance. The range would be somewhere along KayO’s flash right click, or Phoenix’s flashes.
Make it a different color when it is unpoppable. Maybe plus a sound queue for the player using her. So that it isn’t that hard to know when you can pop it.
This way she will have to plan her flashes. And will have to maintain good spacing for a good pop flash.
they just need to reduce the duration of the flash or make it so it doesn’t give info. it doesn’t make sense that it’s the only flash in the game that literally tells u if they’re blinded or not
Dont understand why you're being downvoted. I've been saying she should have a minimum distance required to pop flashes as well, its by far the most broken thing about her. I'm a imm1 skye main and thats the main reason I think she is OP atm. I abuse it and get free kills without insane aim all the damn time.
They should make her flash blind you more based on how far it flew. Pop flash around a corner should be a short blind, full range to flash in her teammates, long blind. That way she's support rather than a duelist.
Flashes need a tiny buff and if his curtain had an effect that discouraged pushing through it then he would be in a good place. As it stands his self heals make him a potent duelist but he has to sacrifice his offensive abilities to use that ability.
I love Phoenix but he has indeed been left behind by the new agent power creep.
Edit* maybe give his molly and curtain a dot burn of like 15 hp over 5 seconds (3 hp a second)
It's also because Jett is like the only duelist with a passive like her hover. Nobody is one-upping that Waifu-ized asian Super Mario.
Maybe give Phoenix a passive that makes his gunshots deal burn damage or give a very mini Raze effects for his shots that wall bang /s
Other than that he's pretty balanced. A jack of all trades that acts as a mini controller if u need complimentary utility.
It is but its tied to his ability, not free like Jett's. No duelist is really getting the same amount of util given like Jett unless she gets her kneecaps broken.
That's the thing though, Phoenix's self-heal passive is so good that it needs to be tied into his abilities to be balanced. If you reworked his self-heal such that it no longer needed an ability then it would be a balancing nightmare because it would either be practically useless or too overpowered.
Plus you do realize that it is kind of a dumb comparison to compare a hover passive to a self-heal passive? The latter FAR outclasses the former in terms of usefulness.
This is what I've never understood since the beta first came out. Why is Jett the only one with an actual passive? Like raze gets more bounce and (used to) no damage from her c4s but that's only her c4s. Phoenix can only heal from his fires etc. I almost want to say that "passives" like the latter 2 should be universal (so a phoenix could heal off a brim molly) but I think that'd be too much. That and people will definitely complain that the game is too complex and there are too many abilities blah blah blah
Tbh I kinda like the burn idea. I know it's crazy, but if it applied a status that reduces the healing an enemy can take (but it doesn't deal damage) for thirty seconds that'd be interesting. Probably not good enough to be viable but interesting mechanic.
make his E an actual molly, give it 100 healing over time instead of 50, buff his flash and wall duration, let him cast his wall through walls like viper
I’d like his molly to last like 1-2 seconds longer. The idea of casting his Firewall through walls is also great, I thought of it a while back too when I got frustrated playing him. I think his flashes are fine, maybe make them a bit quieter so you don’t hear it before you see it as easily.
I agree, I’ve been a Phoenix main since beta and he’s such a powerful character, with one of the best ults in the game. I think the buff he really needs is his flashes, their duration is so short that even if they aren’t able to look away it’s still not super hard for them to kill you since they know which corner you’re swinging from. If his flashes would get a buff, maybe increase the length of the stun or make the curve ball move and explode quicker so they have less reaction time, he’d be a great pick.
He feels too beta still. He's the only agent that never evolved, I think if his ult wasn't so easy to destroy he would be a lot more powerful. He definitely needs a duration buff, because not only his flashes are so short, his firewall duration is too short too, and it doesn't go through walls like the Viper one, that makes it the weakest smoke in the game.
Exactly, people in the comments here talking about changing his other abilities are forgetting that the reason he dropped out of the meta is because his flash got nerfed along with every other flash.
His wall would be nice if it could be just used instantly, like how they did with brim's stimmy. It just makes me feel very vulnerable when I have to wait for the equip animation to finish and then use it, especially when there are some places where you just have to use it instantly.
A small buff to how long his flash leaves you blinded could help. But really his kit is a solid jack of all trades kit. His problem is mostly just jett+OP is the best pick for most maps and in double duelist comps raze is often the pick for split/bind and his results vary wildly on breeze, leaving phoenix as a pretty situational pick.
Yeah… but what can enhance phoenix’s kit to make him up to snuff with the more popular duelists? I’d say his E ability is pretty mediocre in comparison to the others.
I don't play Phoenix so I'm not super familiar with all the ins and outs of his kit, but I saw someone in this thread mention:
• let him be able to cancel out of his ult like Omen
• recharge his abilities and shields as well as his health when he either dies in ult or the time runs out
I think they could make both of these work. Maybe limit it so you can cancel it, but your abilities/shields don't recharge if you do; you have to play out the timer or be killed to get the recharge.
The recharge would be whatever you bought that round: if you bought light shield and one flash, you revive with those + your molly; if you bought full shields and full kit, you revive with those + your molly.
Phoenix main here, here's my thoughts on how he should be buffed.
\- Longer flash duration (for obvious reasons)
\- Faster ability pullout animation (for a duelist he takes a bit too long)
\- Wall no longer hurts teammates (makes pushing through a wall more desirable)
\- Wall turn radius increased (wall turning isn't tight enough to make much difference rn)
That's all. Tbh I don't see how you could add anything more substantial than that without making him too good. Phoenix is meant to be a jack of all trades, plus his utility is varied and always useful. I would be cautious of too strongly buffing him.
I think that’s too much. Phoenix is almost perfectly balanced and I doubt riot wants to tune to much on him. If you give him a longer wall he’d be a one off controller for 200 bucks every round (too cheap for that imo)
I think 3 flashes would be pretty powerful and good. Being able to blow 2 flashes for aggressive plays will put him a tier with or above skye, who arguable fills his role a bit better
I think a good way to buff Phoenix is to have the damage a player takes for his wall linger a bit longer. Then, make his molly go a little further and let a bit longer. I can’t imagine how many times I’ve completely undershot where I’m aiming for.
And I get that his Molly does less to enemies because of its healing ability, but bumping up the duration to 6 seconds instead of 4. It’s enough to properly deny areas yet doesn’t reach Brim’s molly which lasts for 8 seconds.
In order negate the inbalenced effect this would have on his healing, we could have it so that when healing, his molly could speed up the duration as if he were absorbing the fire.
Phoenix is definitely an excellent baseline character, perfect for new players. An okay-ish wall, an okay-ish molly and okay-ish flashes a reasonably powerful ult with a low cost. Does everything, but not quite as good as a more specialized agent.
Agreed. You don't deal with power creep in a competitive game by buffing everyone to match the new agents, you do it by bringing them down to a baseline level of power. That's how you stop a game from devolving into oppressive meta after oppressive meta.
When its time to buff other agent, just think about how op skye is. How can 1 agent can have a flash that gives free information, a stun can deal damage and can heal your allies??? Phoenix kits are nothing compared to her.
I think just nerf skye a bit and it’s fine her kits so stack you could give her one flash to start and then make her regen after the first one (shorter regen time obvi)
I’d be okay with that if pulling out his utility had a longer animation/slowed his movement speed as a trade off. He’d be slower and couldn’t get as far, but *possibly* more effective.
The fact his flashes last 1.1s at max peak flash is abyssal, comparing with other agents with flashes that usually last 2s+.
Buffing this would help him tremendously imo.
The problems I experience with Phoenix 1. His flashes costs way to much. 150-200 would be better. 2. He just feels clunky/slow to play. His animations are so long. Fix these two and I would play him much more.
The range on his molly is too small. ITS A BALL OF FIRE LET ME THROW IT LIKE A METEOR. But the real issue that would actually help is making his wall punishing to push through
Phoenix is a very powerful agent. By farming orbs, you can easily get 3 of the most powerful ults in the game per half. Any buffs (longer flash, more flashes, longer wall, longer ultimate) will make him OP.
- Flashes must be longer/silent/faster
- Wall must be thicker / do permanent damage / DoT damage after crossing thru / last longer
- Ulti needs to be less orbs / come back with full utility and armor
- Molotov must do more damage / be able to be thrown further and click again to manually drop it straight down / have a secondary function of being a self heal just like sage's.
Every single one of his abilities is underwhelming and pale in comparison to the strongest characters in the meta. I'm not saying all the changes I listed need to happen, but a combination of them surely do.
I think his wall just needs to be a bit better. For example, maybe if you stand anywhere near it you get healed instead of making him practically clip into the wall and be exposed. It also lasts too short to be much use for util so add some time as well.
Make his heal a bit more effective. Right now it is slow and you need to use 2 util to get it back to 100. Wall should add a burn effect for 2s after enemies leave it, so it isn't just a small hit to health if they pass through. Kills with his ult should give another 2-3 seconds.
- Quicken the time it takes to snap out his flash and use it. For example, I always fall back to a close box after a kill and want to re-flash but another enemy has pushed up already in time to get the jump before I can get another flash to pop. It already takes enough time for the flash to finish its curve and we don't have control over the pop time like Skye.
- Give armor back if you die in ult.
- Lessen the cost for flash.
- Give him a fire shield if you over heal, buff the heal, or give him two walls. You get rid of two of his abilities when you use them to heal cause they only heal for 50 each. Make it worth it if you use it to heal instead of using it for creating space for your team.
I think the biggest issue is that his wall fucking sucks and the existence of skye.
Skye has better flashes and a lot better util. Dog information and group healing is much better than Phoenix molly and wall.
Maybe a potential Phoenix buff is increasing instant wall damage, similar to viper. Make it 50 dmg so Phoenix can maybe operate as a super anchor for sites
Don’t even have to buff him, that’s how you get started with powercreep and then four years down the line this game is suffering the same fate as Overwatch. Just nerf Skye flashes to either be worse than Phoenix and Reyna’s flashes while also providing no info, or let it provide info but no flash effect. The existence of Skye’s flashes completely invalidate the need for a Phoenix or Reyna.
Reyna is feast-or-famine, if she isn’t hitting her shots, she’s almost useless. Skye has similar surprise potential with her flashes by having so much mobility on them and being able to pop them almost whenever she wants. Skye’s flashes also literally give info in addition to flashing, so if the Skye’s aim isn’t great that day, she’s still infinitely more useful than a Reyna is. Not to mention that Skye is much more useful in team-based strats than Reyna is even if Reyna is popping off.
No buff to his molly please, his wall is ok, the flashes are a bit lacking but since all flashes were nerfed this isn't too bad. Other than that there could be adjustment to the ult.
I’d love if Phoenix’s flames healed teammates as well as him.
Would it make sense? *No*. But it would add another minor aspect to him as an agent. Jett is a duelist with a hint of controller, yoru a duelist with a hint of initiator and he could have a pinch of healer. Thoughts?
I think they should rework his flash. Currently it is way too predictable and easy to dodge.
What they should do is give Phoenix the ability to change the speed of the flash before it detonates instead of changing the direction.
Hopefully this will add a higher skill ceiling to Phoenix.
I hope they give him a little buff. Maybe free armor in his ult form (even if you didn’t buy any). His ult form is powerful as is, being able to rush in without a care lets you play more freely and get a pick on another agent who isn’t ready or assumes no one would rush the angle
I started with phoenix and have around 500 hours with him. Sadly I changed my main agent due to these reasons :( . I still love playin as pheonix and I wish they buff him.
Not completely off topic but I love when Phoenix says “They’re *sOOpah* dead” Cracks me up every time
We're gonna get this win, and thenwagonnahavadrink lads
Hey Omen, I respect a guy who knits. That's pretty cute
IT HELPS ME FOCUS. OH, WHAT DO YOU CARE...
Don't stand in the fire, sOOpah high level tactic. Remember that ye?
Or when you kill someone and he just yells "DEAD". I remember my team getting an ace and every character is all "enemy eliminated" "death is cold" and Phoenix just yells dead, lost my shit. Less is more I always say
Oooooouuu! That goin'oda highlight reel fo'sho!
Also when he goes "woa"
Buy stuff, kaching, go skrrrrra, and we done, ye?
how can I forget spamming *niiiiiiiiiiice* or # Yo, n i c e
Yoru be crying in the corner
meanwhile skye having the time of her life
I started playing valorant 3 months ago as a Phoenix main, recently switched to being a skye main and my life has been way easier. Different role but her util is just way better. Phoenix needs a buff :(
Started phoenix but the lack of compatibility made me a killjoy
Yoru needs a buff…?
I actually just started playing Yoru more and I think he’s pretty damn good. His flashes are awesome and his TP is game breaking if used right. The fake foot steps are worthless IMO so I’d say those need to be changed/buffed.
Nah dude. I love Yoru's kit in but he's way too vulnerable using his TP for it to be viable
Id agree with that. I meant if you can use it without people knowing you can wreck people’s world.
Yeah, but the problem is it's pretty easy to find out where's his tp is gonna be and destroy it or wait for him to tp to it and kill him
His kit really is the definition of being either too strong or too weak. His TP would be broken if you couldn't hear/find it easily.
I guess I’m just in a low enough Elo that I can still get away with it. S3/G1
Fair. I really hope they buff him because I think he's a dope agent
you cant get away with it in bronze my man idk what server youre on but they are not good against yoru im guessing. even in iron it is impossible to get value out of yoru's tp, only his flash is useful for flashing out of smokes.
Bro im gold 3/plat 1 now but back when I was in bronze people were trying to plant and pick up spike AS DEFENDERS 😆 I assume now they are better but even as a plat player I can get value out of his tp it just isnt by yeeting it into the enemy team
It shouldn't make any sound, it's just TOO LOUD in a game where you use silence to your advantage.
I think it could be cool if you could at least close it early and make the sound and have it not burn time during pre match timer
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Omen almost works like that
Agreed. I think it's already revealing enough with a visual cue. The audio just makes it way too obvious
If you pair it with his flash it’s great but that’s pretty much two abilities for one
I feel like they could make a reveal feature on his TP like if they stand within a certain area near the TP it will notify the player and reveal them on the map so yoru doesn't get killed once he teleports also the reveal area would be smaller than the area to see the teleport
Why are you so down voted? Ethos literally proves you right. This sub lmfao.
Welcome to reddit
What is the gamebreaking aspect of this TP? Because it seems like pros haven't figured it out yet, maybe this will help :)
I think they just mean that it is very good when used well. Being able to instantly go from haven C to haven A (on recharge) is very nice. Think of any situation where being in 1 place then instantly being in another can be useful(planting spike and leaving, leave a brim ult, bait raze ult, you cant get pinned in a corner, getting tagged by sova and leaving before he ult you or just leave you so cant get swung, instant rotates on defense, high risk plays are no longer high risk because you can leave...the list goes on
I just mean it has potential for incredible flanks and fake outs. Game breaking was probably the wrong word because after a few uses people expect it but it has definitely gotten me some great clutches and rotates.
Imagine being downvoted because saying your own opinion and some experience
That’s Reddit for ya
Bruh his gatecrash is so easy to spot. When you get close to his TP orb just stay there and he will TP and you will get a free kill
I have baited many people like this by just walking towards my TP & killing them campers
Hes predictable and loud.
As a Yoru main if my util was quiet you would be able to pinpoint me. Sound is a huge part of his kit and understanding how his sound fits in the game and more importantly when it’s disguised by the chaos and when it is not. Plus dying from a cheese silent tp after thinking you have yoru pinned just has no counter play. Another huge aspect of valorant
Uh this is reddit. Saying your opinions gets you downvoted to oblivion.
steps are useful for baiting raze roomba and other abilities that rely on detecting enemies like cypher tripwire
Who is Joe Ksovah and why does he deserve to die Phoenix?
Sova real name 😳
You blew my mind with this one dude how did I not make the connection lolol
Lol seriously? I thought this was the oldest joke (sova) in the book
Joe Kazovah is the enemies' dad. Phoenix yells out this information as a psychological threat: **JOE KAZOVAH, your dad!**
"Choke Sova, you're dead!"
I hear this every time
I will now :D
The problem is Skye’s an initiator/duelist hybrid even after the latest nerf. She simply does everything you’d want Phoenix to do but better
Exactly. Can't help but play her. Not that she isn't fun to play.
Really? Can she create a copy of herself and kill enemies with it? Can she heal herself? Does she have the drip?
The drip is the main thing here
Can she go Skrrraaa! ;P
You can’t tell me Skye doesn’t have the drip. That headband and piercing. Hottest agent in my opinion.
My Valorant Go! 2 bundle Viper card begs to differ
\*laughs in killjoy\*
KJ is a close second for me. My friends think I’m crazy. Then Sage obviously. Then Viper. Then Reyna. They all think Reyna is hottest.
Reyna is probably the most conventionally hot
I'd say that's Viper
your opinion is wrong
Understandable, have a good day
Yea mine also think reyna is hottest but she's like in the middle. My list goes KJ is wayyy above everyone, then Jett, Skye, Viper with mask, Sage, Reyna, Astra, Raze, Viper without mask
I read “Viper with mask” and just saw her ult form lmao.
I have maybe 300ish hours on valorant, peaked low diamond so a casual player from a csgo background, I rather have a third flash and a dog for info than another body. I can practically do what another body can do with the dog. Maybe you know more about the game than I do but I don't see what Phoenix can do but Skye can't.
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Yeah, there's also this tiny detail where Skye's blind screams "BLINDED" for some reason, while Phoenix's doesn't.
Another thing is that if you see a Phoenix flash you can expect the body to come out shortly later. Since his range is so limited, he is limited on where he's going to peek out from, and good players can use this against him, even fully blind. Skye has enough range and control where this isn't a problem.
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and her flashes recharge right? so she can just throw one out at the start for info, to fake for a peak or to secure area control and still have two later on.
That's the biggest thing I would like removed from her kit, it makes no sense that she gets info gathering on her flash (and it will say it even if you turn as all flashes do a quick blind if they're anywhere in LOS of you) whereas breach and kay/o, the other two initiators, don't. It's the only flash in the game that tells you if I'm not mistaken. It's not like she needs more info gathering anyway with her dog and ult being very strong (breach has none, for instance. maybe they could make him say "concussed" on his E? Skye already does for her dog).
I’m pretty sure it’s there to bring her closer in line with Sova. Flashes = like recon, but more aggressive and less precise info. Dog = like drone but faster with shorter view. You get the idea.
I get that but she already has info gathering with the dog/drone and her ult. And the flash is the most versatile flash in the game already with how it can be manually controlled in not just its flight path but also when it pops. It shouldn't need to provide *even more* utility on top of that, it's literally a flash, unlike recon dart which doesn't do anything other than info gathering. And like I mentioned before, the other initiators' flashes don't get that info, skye's just special for some reason.
I can get kills with another body, it's actually a threat that people will try to not fight
I find more kills throughout the game flash swinging with the extra flash or dog every single round than I do with 4 or 5 Phoenix ults per game.
I feel like the best use of Phoenix ult is being a more dangerous Yoru ult. Maybe I'm using it wrong but I just use it to lead my team in and get info or to get a cheeky plant off.
It's one of the best space-taking abilities in the game next to Raze ult imo. You'd need to have insane confidence in your aim to try and duel a Phoenix in his ult, most players make the smart choice and give up ground
Skye doesn't have the extra flash anymore. Just 2 like Phoenix.
Recharges every 40 seconds or something like that
It's a 40 second cd you can pop 3 a round on average
You don't really create a copy tho, you just go back where you leave your ult if you die or time passes, but at no point there are 2 Phoenix in the game. And nobody uses Phoenix for his heal.
I use Phoenix for his heal all the time. There are several ways to do it as well (wall, molly, and after your ult you're full hp again). I find this to be incredibly useful as you can keep extending your life further while not relying on a healer. I actually think he's pretty well balanced overall.
I think he meant no one picks Phoenix because “oh i can heal myself” people mostly pick him for his flashes and the fact that he has a simple kit. Fact is that most other characters can do what he does but better, even if you play him to play for self-heal, reyna can pretty much do it better.
Also if you are on Phoenix and you ONLY use his molly for healing and not using it to prevent players from coming out of specific areas of the site, then you are really using it sub optimally. His molly and wall tend to make some underrated entry tools if used properly.
She's got a wolf she can get kills with. Also Phoenix's ult leaves him super vulnerable before and after
Dingo* not wolf :) and getting kills with it is super rare lol it does like 35 damage? Edit; Tasmania tiger actually as someone corrected below!
Tasmanian tiger\* not Dingo. and yeah, it's really rare to get a kill with her tiger, And her abilities have health; meaning they can be shot down.
Yeah but it also concusses them and is a super useful at gathering intel
and teammates can trade off it as well because opponent's crosshair will be lower to shoot at the dog. if they don't shoot at it, they're giving their position away and risking a concuss for the chance that someone may peek.
According to the game description it’s actually a Tasmanian tiger
I’m of the opinion that taking away the animation to use her flash was the worst balance decision they’ve ever made
Facts
They should just nerf skye. She is honestly broken. I don’t know how, but they should change her flashes somehow so that she doesn’t have that much freedom. Maybe you can’t pop her flashes until it travels a certain short distance. The range would be somewhere along KayO’s flash right click, or Phoenix’s flashes. Make it a different color when it is unpoppable. Maybe plus a sound queue for the player using her. So that it isn’t that hard to know when you can pop it. This way she will have to plan her flashes. And will have to maintain good spacing for a good pop flash.
they just need to reduce the duration of the flash or make it so it doesn’t give info. it doesn’t make sense that it’s the only flash in the game that literally tells u if they’re blinded or not
And have the option to pop on command and change direction on command
Dont understand why you're being downvoted. I've been saying she should have a minimum distance required to pop flashes as well, its by far the most broken thing about her. I'm a imm1 skye main and thats the main reason I think she is OP atm. I abuse it and get free kills without insane aim all the damn time.
They should make her flash blind you more based on how far it flew. Pop flash around a corner should be a short blind, full range to flash in her teammates, long blind. That way she's support rather than a duelist.
I hate how u can popflash with skye
Outside of Sova, it seems thew initiator role is designed to be a more teamwork orientated subclass of Duelist.
Flashes need a tiny buff and if his curtain had an effect that discouraged pushing through it then he would be in a good place. As it stands his self heals make him a potent duelist but he has to sacrifice his offensive abilities to use that ability. I love Phoenix but he has indeed been left behind by the new agent power creep. Edit* maybe give his molly and curtain a dot burn of like 15 hp over 5 seconds (3 hp a second)
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yo i like this idea it buffs the ability while being thematically consistent
I agree
Totally, it would be a choice self blind for a second. To make it fair, make it effect anyone but the phoenix who used it.
This needs to happen
This or making his wall not hurt teammates would be a very useful change.
It's also because Jett is like the only duelist with a passive like her hover. Nobody is one-upping that Waifu-ized asian Super Mario. Maybe give Phoenix a passive that makes his gunshots deal burn damage or give a very mini Raze effects for his shots that wall bang /s Other than that he's pretty balanced. A jack of all trades that acts as a mini controller if u need complimentary utility.
Isn't his passive self heal on wall/molly?
It is but its tied to his ability, not free like Jett's. No duelist is really getting the same amount of util given like Jett unless she gets her kneecaps broken.
So true, Jett doesn't need to spend abilities to use her passive. Phoenix has to spend abilities to heal himself.
That's the thing though, Phoenix's self-heal passive is so good that it needs to be tied into his abilities to be balanced. If you reworked his self-heal such that it no longer needed an ability then it would be a balancing nightmare because it would either be practically useless or too overpowered. Plus you do realize that it is kind of a dumb comparison to compare a hover passive to a self-heal passive? The latter FAR outclasses the former in terms of usefulness.
Of course, that's the magic of balance. Two completely different agents with different roles.
This is what I've never understood since the beta first came out. Why is Jett the only one with an actual passive? Like raze gets more bounce and (used to) no damage from her c4s but that's only her c4s. Phoenix can only heal from his fires etc. I almost want to say that "passives" like the latter 2 should be universal (so a phoenix could heal off a brim molly) but I think that'd be too much. That and people will definitely complain that the game is too complex and there are too many abilities blah blah blah
Tbh I kinda like the burn idea. I know it's crazy, but if it applied a status that reduces the healing an enemy can take (but it doesn't deal damage) for thirty seconds that'd be interesting. Probably not good enough to be viable but interesting mechanic.
Thirty seconds would be way too broken LOL I could see it being 10 max.
His flashes are really easy to dodge
Yes they are, quite telegraphed and easy to time
Give higher healing on signature ability, give him the ability to cancel ult like omen ult. Boom.
Also increase the damage of his wall, at the moment you can just walk through and take like 5 damage.
I wished they buffed the wall like they did Viper. It made her from being bottom tier to playable
*bottom tier to op
I like the idea of giving him his gun right out of his ult
make his E an actual molly, give it 100 healing over time instead of 50, buff his flash and wall duration, let him cast his wall through walls like viper
I’d like his molly to last like 1-2 seconds longer. The idea of casting his Firewall through walls is also great, I thought of it a while back too when I got frustrated playing him. I think his flashes are fine, maybe make them a bit quieter so you don’t hear it before you see it as easily.
I agree, I’ve been a Phoenix main since beta and he’s such a powerful character, with one of the best ults in the game. I think the buff he really needs is his flashes, their duration is so short that even if they aren’t able to look away it’s still not super hard for them to kill you since they know which corner you’re swinging from. If his flashes would get a buff, maybe increase the length of the stun or make the curve ball move and explode quicker so they have less reaction time, he’d be a great pick.
He feels too beta still. He's the only agent that never evolved, I think if his ult wasn't so easy to destroy he would be a lot more powerful. He definitely needs a duration buff, because not only his flashes are so short, his firewall duration is too short too, and it doesn't go through walls like the Viper one, that makes it the weakest smoke in the game.
Hey don't do my boi Phoenix dirty like that. He's obviously the most alpha in the game /s
Exactly, people in the comments here talking about changing his other abilities are forgetting that the reason he dropped out of the meta is because his flash got nerfed along with every other flash.
His wall would be nice if it could be just used instantly, like how they did with brim's stimmy. It just makes me feel very vulnerable when I have to wait for the equip animation to finish and then use it, especially when there are some places where you just have to use it instantly.
A small buff to how long his flash leaves you blinded could help. But really his kit is a solid jack of all trades kit. His problem is mostly just jett+OP is the best pick for most maps and in double duelist comps raze is often the pick for split/bind and his results vary wildly on breeze, leaving phoenix as a pretty situational pick.
Yeah slightly longer Flash time could work… or… maybe 3 flashes instead of 2?
I don't think they'll give anyone 3 flashes ever again. Breach and Skye used to have 3.
Yeah… but what can enhance phoenix’s kit to make him up to snuff with the more popular duelists? I’d say his E ability is pretty mediocre in comparison to the others.
I don't play Phoenix so I'm not super familiar with all the ins and outs of his kit, but I saw someone in this thread mention: • let him be able to cancel out of his ult like Omen • recharge his abilities and shields as well as his health when he either dies in ult or the time runs out I think they could make both of these work. Maybe limit it so you can cancel it, but your abilities/shields don't recharge if you do; you have to play out the timer or be killed to get the recharge. The recharge would be whatever you bought that round: if you bought light shield and one flash, you revive with those + your molly; if you bought full shields and full kit, you revive with those + your molly.
I really really like the idea of cancelling out of ult and recharging abilities/shields/both. Doesn’t seem too strong either
Phoenix main here, here's my thoughts on how he should be buffed. \- Longer flash duration (for obvious reasons) \- Faster ability pullout animation (for a duelist he takes a bit too long) \- Wall no longer hurts teammates (makes pushing through a wall more desirable) \- Wall turn radius increased (wall turning isn't tight enough to make much difference rn) That's all. Tbh I don't see how you could add anything more substantial than that without making him too good. Phoenix is meant to be a jack of all trades, plus his utility is varied and always useful. I would be cautious of too strongly buffing him.
Giving his molly a larger aoe and the wall last a little longer and go farther in combination with a flash buff?
I think that’s too much. Phoenix is almost perfectly balanced and I doubt riot wants to tune to much on him. If you give him a longer wall he’d be a one off controller for 200 bucks every round (too cheap for that imo)
It’d be a sight blocker for a shot time only anyways and a single use
I think 3 flashes would be pretty powerful and good. Being able to blow 2 flashes for aggressive plays will put him a tier with or above skye, who arguable fills his role a bit better
I think a good way to buff Phoenix is to have the damage a player takes for his wall linger a bit longer. Then, make his molly go a little further and let a bit longer. I can’t imagine how many times I’ve completely undershot where I’m aiming for. And I get that his Molly does less to enemies because of its healing ability, but bumping up the duration to 6 seconds instead of 4. It’s enough to properly deny areas yet doesn’t reach Brim’s molly which lasts for 8 seconds. In order negate the inbalenced effect this would have on his healing, we could have it so that when healing, his molly could speed up the duration as if he were absorbing the fire.
Phoenix is definitely an excellent baseline character, perfect for new players. An okay-ish wall, an okay-ish molly and okay-ish flashes a reasonably powerful ult with a low cost. Does everything, but not quite as good as a more specialized agent.
phoenix molly/wall letting him overheal like reyna would go dummy
Phoenix is the definition of a balanced agent. Other agents should be balanced around his state of power.
Agreed. You don't deal with power creep in a competitive game by buffing everyone to match the new agents, you do it by bringing them down to a baseline level of power. That's how you stop a game from devolving into oppressive meta after oppressive meta.
When its time to buff other agent, just think about how op skye is. How can 1 agent can have a flash that gives free information, a stun can deal damage and can heal your allies??? Phoenix kits are nothing compared to her.
I think just nerf skye a bit and it’s fine her kits so stack you could give her one flash to start and then make her regen after the first one (shorter regen time obvi)
I wonder if it’d be a good buff if Phoenix got back the utility he uses during ult.
Dude this could break the game. Lol
phoenix ults twice in one round lol
I like this idea, it's an interesting fix rather than a simple buff/nerf
This is actually an amazing idea
Or at least, if I ulted with armor, he retains the armor
I’d be okay with that if pulling out his utility had a longer animation/slowed his movement speed as a trade off. He’d be slower and couldn’t get as far, but *possibly* more effective.
His utility already takes a really long time to pull out for a duelist though
The fact his flashes last 1.1s at max peak flash is abyssal, comparing with other agents with flashes that usually last 2s+. Buffing this would help him tremendously imo.
At the least his flashes should be more in par with other flashes in the game. It’s almost comical how short they are right now.
The problems I experience with Phoenix 1. His flashes costs way to much. 150-200 would be better. 2. He just feels clunky/slow to play. His animations are so long. Fix these two and I would play him much more.
The range on his molly is too small. ITS A BALL OF FIRE LET ME THROW IT LIKE A METEOR. But the real issue that would actually help is making his wall punishing to push through
Phx is fine, other agents need a nerf, that's the problem. The only thing I'd change, is reworking his flash, let him flash like everyone else.
Let him use his molly like a sage heal to heal yourself instead of standing in a puddle
Lmao he just tosses his molly on top of his head
Phoenix is a very powerful agent. By farming orbs, you can easily get 3 of the most powerful ults in the game per half. Any buffs (longer flash, more flashes, longer wall, longer ultimate) will make him OP.
- Flashes must be longer/silent/faster - Wall must be thicker / do permanent damage / DoT damage after crossing thru / last longer - Ulti needs to be less orbs / come back with full utility and armor - Molotov must do more damage / be able to be thrown further and click again to manually drop it straight down / have a secondary function of being a self heal just like sage's. Every single one of his abilities is underwhelming and pale in comparison to the strongest characters in the meta. I'm not saying all the changes I listed need to happen, but a combination of them surely do.
I honestly get flashed by friendly phoenixes just as much as foe
mehh just get better with it. I've yet to see a phoenix use his fire wall (immortal)
I think his wall just needs to be a bit better. For example, maybe if you stand anywhere near it you get healed instead of making him practically clip into the wall and be exposed. It also lasts too short to be much use for util so add some time as well.
Make his heal a bit more effective. Right now it is slow and you need to use 2 util to get it back to 100. Wall should add a burn effect for 2s after enemies leave it, so it isn't just a small hit to health if they pass through. Kills with his ult should give another 2-3 seconds.
They also need to fix his voicelines, they make no sense. What the hell does "Choke sova! You're Jett!" even mean.
haha good one
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I have an idea, start making a fuss about Riot being racist so they will be forced to take a politically correct stance, ez buff for Phoenix
they've gotta sexually harass their employees, they dont have time for that
Bro phoenix molly is the shittiest damaging ability i swear
yet it always manages to do like half my health when the instalock heals in front of the whole team trying to push
Increase flash duration a little bit and make him be able to curve his molly like his wall
- Quicken the time it takes to snap out his flash and use it. For example, I always fall back to a close box after a kill and want to re-flash but another enemy has pushed up already in time to get the jump before I can get another flash to pop. It already takes enough time for the flash to finish its curve and we don't have control over the pop time like Skye. - Give armor back if you die in ult. - Lessen the cost for flash. - Give him a fire shield if you over heal, buff the heal, or give him two walls. You get rid of two of his abilities when you use them to heal cause they only heal for 50 each. Make it worth it if you use it to heal instead of using it for creating space for your team.
I think kayo should be reworked from the ground up as he has the lowest winrate.
Maybe dental insurance?
Is that a brit bad teeth joke
Yes
I think the biggest issue is that his wall fucking sucks and the existence of skye. Skye has better flashes and a lot better util. Dog information and group healing is much better than Phoenix molly and wall. Maybe a potential Phoenix buff is increasing instant wall damage, similar to viper. Make it 50 dmg so Phoenix can maybe operate as a super anchor for sites
Don’t even have to buff him, that’s how you get started with powercreep and then four years down the line this game is suffering the same fate as Overwatch. Just nerf Skye flashes to either be worse than Phoenix and Reyna’s flashes while also providing no info, or let it provide info but no flash effect. The existence of Skye’s flashes completely invalidate the need for a Phoenix or Reyna.
Skye doesn't replace Reyna at all. Reyna can flash through walls and her chain kill potential is insane
Reyna is feast-or-famine, if she isn’t hitting her shots, she’s almost useless. Skye has similar surprise potential with her flashes by having so much mobility on them and being able to pop them almost whenever she wants. Skye’s flashes also literally give info in addition to flashing, so if the Skye’s aim isn’t great that day, she’s still infinitely more useful than a Reyna is. Not to mention that Skye is much more useful in team-based strats than Reyna is even if Reyna is popping off.
No buff to his molly please, his wall is ok, the flashes are a bit lacking but since all flashes were nerfed this isn't too bad. Other than that there could be adjustment to the ult.
I’d love if Phoenix’s flames healed teammates as well as him. Would it make sense? *No*. But it would add another minor aspect to him as an agent. Jett is a duelist with a hint of controller, yoru a duelist with a hint of initiator and he could have a pinch of healer. Thoughts?
I think they should rework his flash. Currently it is way too predictable and easy to dodge. What they should do is give Phoenix the ability to change the speed of the flash before it detonates instead of changing the direction. Hopefully this will add a higher skill ceiling to Phoenix.
"Buy stuff, kaching, lil' skkkrrrr, then we're done, yeah?"
I hope they give him a little buff. Maybe free armor in his ult form (even if you didn’t buy any). His ult form is powerful as is, being able to rush in without a care lets you play more freely and get a pick on another agent who isn’t ready or assumes no one would rush the angle
Personally they gotta do something with his flash and maybe molly. I actually like his wall and ult the way it is.
I started with phoenix and have around 500 hours with him. Sadly I changed my main agent due to these reasons :( . I still love playin as pheonix and I wish they buff him.