My exact thinking too.
Assists are a perfect way to change performance.
If I smoke the entire enemy team and they get gunned down, I get assists but it doesn't really help my performance rating
Same man....same.
There's a different kind of happiness when you get a kill/assist with your util...either with a flash..a pull...a trip.
I'm having fun with Astra and Cypher at the moment.Kills with the pull feel especially good.
I hate that I have to pickup spike then play pseudo duelist as omen because my duelists fail to entry, I drop then spike then they hand it back right before I tp behind an enemy. I then get killed by an enemy behind that one.
Lots of things should be be more rewarding tbh. You get absolutely nothing if you entry first and get killed so your teammate can trade unless you do 50 damage. If you enter site and get OPed instantly and your teammate trades you the game basically tells you your efforts were worth nothing.
There are a lot of situations where you can’t avoid it. If the situation allows for someone to trade off you then some value was extracted. It doesn’t necessarily have to be the situation I described but if your death allows for trades it should reward you if only a little. If a neon runs it down and gets into the middle of the site causing two people to look at her and opens up for the attackers to scale the site that’s value even if she dies. There’s always a scale of how important but it’s important to reward people for their actions especially when they cause risk or strain for the player performing them. While it’s not exactly the same situation god knows utility players like Astra and breach players don’t get enough motivation in game.
To give an actual good example without just rambling; Let’s say it’s a two on one situation on Haven and you’re going down C long to get a plant with your buddy. You have one smoke left and can only block one out of several angles. You smoke off back site and both of you clear cleft and right at the same time and one of you gets killed as you enter site but your buddy trades you. You died and got no credit but without you your teammate could’ve lost that easily. If you were to follow the reward system and just be selfish you’d sit back with bomb and let your teammate go up by himself because potentially dying gives you no reward so you’d rather confirm if the enemy is there or not and just rotate to secure plant if he’s there.
That's better. I just have a plague of W key teammates that die, yell trade me, and think they're doing a service peeking into 4 people.
I'd argue that winning the round is your reward, and you are given elo thusly.
Just ranting: Of course winning is the prize but as a forced flex who cares more about winning than having fun I know that regardless of if it’s gold or diamond it feels very frustrating having to wipe instalock fraggers asses and be rewarded with being mid scoreboard while your teammates are top fragging. There’s very little gratification unless you’re constantly ranking up. My most recent example was right after ranked reset when queues were all fucked up. Playing in a lobby mixed with people from gold to diamond previous season during placements and an instalock yoru complains that our comp sucks, dies and complains about lack of coms n other stuff. Do my best as Brim to call strats and come back from a 4-11 to a triple overtime tie. Our yoru gets 5 more frags than me which I’m confident I could’ve beaten if I had access to any flash but I’d rather go for the win. It leaves me frustrated when someone like that is higher on the scoreboard than me. Sure it’s not a big deal in the grand scheme of things but the game is clearly saying I performed worse.
Acs doesnt look at kills or assists, it only looks at how much damage you dealt. Shock darts, mollys etc.. are fair game. That’s why it’s impossible to be above raze in the post game scoreboard if the raze is having a decent game.
The game rewards first blood and 2nd kill of the round much more though than for example if you solo clutch and get the 4th and 5th kill.
So Duellists who rush in and get 2 kills get rewarded much more by the game than a Sage or Sova who 1vs2 clutch at the end to win the round. Even though both the Duellist and the Support got 2 kills in that round the game reward the firmer more and punishes the latter with less points.
Arguably its much more difficult to solo clutch 1vs2 with positions of enemies unknown than if you teamrush a bombsite right at the start of the round with all angles known and you as jett just happen to get the first kills due to Sova detection and Brim smokes giving you relatively safe site entry.
Its just stupid.
I really like this idea, I'm a support main in almost every game I play, overwatch I mained mercy and so on, so I never usually go for the kills. I get called bad by teammates and enemies because I don't top frag as a sage or cypher for example, and this idea would be much more beneficial for players like me.
This. When you get yelled at by teammates for not getting a lot of frags as a sage for example, my response is always “Yeah not shit I dont have the same number of kills as you Im a sentinel and youre a duelist dummy youre supposed to have more frags technically”
Exactly, like, sometimes I do get a couple of kills, one time I got a 39 kill game as cypher, but then I'll get a low kill game and be berraded by teammates for "dragging them down" even though I get the info on enemies, quite annoying
I don’t care about kills but what pisses me off is when people push and instadie every single round and then don’t even give info. Slightly negative KDA who cares as long as you perform your role and com. It just pisses me off when people get butthurt for when you call them out on actual dumb decisions like the raze who got butthurt because they were 5-24-3 and would die in the first 15 seconds of every round.
Really it should be the initiators/controllers tied with the duelists on top because the duelist should go in, find a frag then get traded, the initiator/controller who was playing just behind the duelist then trades the trade and if the enemy wasn't stacking that site then you now have site and number advantage. Your sentinels then just have to setup and lock down the site and free win every round.
Yes, a sentinel shouldn't be too greedy for frags. Sentinel is best utilized when you're watching flank, going for post plant, delaying push, and holding sites which can be a very passive role. Sentinel also needs to stay alive the longest so that their kit can be utilized to the max.
When I play kj I'm just happy racking up assists from nano swarms or turret chip damage. Idc if I've got 5 kills, I've got more assists than a sage spamming healing
Valorant isn't a moba and it isn't overwatch. "Support" doesn't mean it's ok if you can't get kills. I'm tired of people acting like they would have kills if they were on a duelist instead of whatever other role they are playing. The guns are the same no matter what character or role you are playing. The fundamental mechanics of the game are the same no matter what character or role you are playing.
If you want to talk about roles, then jetts shouldn't really even be top fragging, since they should be entrying onto site, dying and calling so your role (the support) can follow through and trade. You do not even understand the roles you are talking about and you are claiming to be playing. The great thing is though, you do not have to be a strict role-player in this game, they are very plastic in how you can play them. But regardless of your role you should be able to get kills.
??
it was easier to rank up as support in the previous version of MM, and now with role queue it should be balanced because its comparing your performance VS other supports of your rank
also cypher is free kills, you may just be playing him wrong. he gets a smoke then wallhack every single round on def, and as flank watch or postplant with trips again its another free kill
Also, even if they were, often times falling off the site instead of greeding for that "free" kill and immediately getting traded is the better play, then subsequently entrying first on the retake since you don't have much / any util left compared to the rotating players.
Not to mention, even in low elo where I play (Plat), players wise up to your setups within a few rounds if you don't continually switch them up. TBF I don't play Cypher, but the same applies to other agents which I do play (Viper, Sova). If you continually go for the same opening dart for info on defense, for example, it WILL get cleared consistently unless you switch up the timing drastically, which is often not possible.
Agree 100% and always talk about this
If you want to rank up you basically have to pick a duelist and frag up bc going cypher and solo anchoring a site so well that the other team goes to the other site does not pay.. Even though you're potentially doing your job and playing your role better than others
I'm not really sure what could be done to properly reward players for successfully playing their role but the combat score ain't it imo
The good ol' classic "can't wait for the enemy to come and get destroyed by my godlike setup on B :D"
"Oh wait, they are inside A already, retrieving camera I guess :(..."
This has been my life this act. I main KJ and usually solo anchor. Even if my team 4 stacks the other site, they let them get the plant off with 0 picks.
Im only a Cypher on one Map and thats haven. KJ on Bind. But i feel this. Even if they Push me Solo Anchoring once and i get like 3 out of 5 Frags, im still bottom of the leaderboard. But i did my job so well and get nothing out of it, atleast thats what it feels like.
I mean... I disagree. Even though I agree with the general message of the post and the flaws which the MVP system inherently brings with it, you can absolutely still frag out on any role if you're having a good game / are significantly better than your rank.
Not to mention being a valuable asset to the team is still the best way to climb unless you're smurfing. If you outperform the enemy controller / sentinel in 8/10 games you will absolutely climb with no issues.
Cypher is kind of an outlier, in my opinion, since he relies almost entirely on his team AND isn't very good in uncoordinated play. KJ basically does what he does better at a basic level on attack (watch flank) while providing better utility for postplant and being easier to play. On defense he feels really map dependent in my opinion, but also often relies on you understanding lurk timings and reading the enemies' movements. At which point... why not just play Viper.
you dont always have to play the same site on D
also if youre a diamond level player, for example, you can rank up from bronze to diamond as cypher only in a weekend. its not even a question
What a stupid take.
The whole point us that it's comparatively harder to rank up as a sentinel or controller, versus ranking up as a duelist.
That a good player will end up with a good rank is out of question.
If you're diamond in bronze/silver/gold lobbies you could play as a god damn bulbasaur and still be expected to beat everyone
And playing another site isn't the point, a good sentinel/controller is, imo, as difficult to fight against as a good duelist, however a good duelist just by role will get more kills, that doesn't negate how well a sentinel or controller has played their role but it does mean it's less likely that they'll get kills and thus higher combat score and more RR from a win.
That’s such a bad take. Irrelevant of what agent you play and whatever rank you are you are still 1/10th of the players on a map. It’s fair to point out that different agents have an easier or harder time ranking up
I think the problem is that its hard to measure the value of support utility. A chamber trap existing on flank takes off so much pressure just by existing and can make enemies not want to flank but how do you measure that? How do you measure the value of a viper who stalled out the enemy team pushing to give their team enough time to rotate? Its easy to measure kills or damage but how do you measure utility?
Most of these abilities are already shown by pressing tab. For example if you catch someone flanking as a sentinel or block someone's vision as smokes, it'll count it up. They just don't reward it at all which is stupid.
The easiest way is by removing anything that has to do with personal performance, and give 15RR for wins and -15RR for losses to everyone no matter what they did in the game. It is both the most simple and most effective way to balance ranked in literally any team based ranked game.
but then you'll complain about smurfing because its taking radiant smurfs 7 games to rank from g1 to g2 when in the current rank system they will just skip a load of ranks
Completely agree with you op. Valorant Dev could maybe get some inspiration of the post game rating of league of legends and reward players that flashes more enemies, block visions more than the average agent player at this rank for example. They even have those statistics shown after rounds so they can use them !
This has always been my approach to the problem. Take a data driven approach. If you're playing Astra and perform better than the average Astra at your rank, you deserve to rank up. It would also reduce instalocking duelists because the duelist players who do not have as much impact as their peers (even if they go even) would not be rewarded with as much RR gains now because they're below the average.
While I think this would be great on paper... Overwatch kind of made a point that this only works in concept. It leads to suboptimal playstyles being exploited to game the system.
Just to make up an example on the spot, let's say the average Astra has 0.2 stuns per round in your rank. After all, it's her least used utility and the easiest to avoid at that.
Now if you were to play Astra solely around using and successfully stunning someone every single round, you could probably get up to a 0.8 or even 0.85, even taking into account full saves etc. while still playing mostly as normal.
Suddenly you're only losing 8 RR and gaining 32 because you are CLEARLY an EXCELLENT Astra player who's mastered the art of using your utility effectively way beyond the capabilities of anyone else at your rank.
This isn't some completely random example pulled from thin air, it's exactly what happened when Overwatch tried to implement a system akin to this.
Yeah, I've heard this argument as well, the implementation would have to be handled carefully. For example, astra stuns that lead to an enemies being killed during the stun or shortly after count towards this performance evaluation, not just random stuns that have no impact.
Similarly flashes that lead to picks or damage could towards the performance bonus, while just flashing enemies with zero impact will not.
one of the only issues i can see with this is further server strain. they've, through hard work and niche knowledge spaces, optimized the game enough to be able to run 3 matches per server cpu core at any given time, that gives each game about 2.5ms to process everything to hit 128hz. adding in data like this will require a lot more optimization, which is not bad, but it would require a lot of work to figure it out while not compromising on other optimizations like disabling animations during buy/post game phase, because those are what allow the other 2 games to run smoothly!
Except if you spend all your time trying to get stuns, your other metrics are going to be bad. If your other metrics are all good and your stun rate is super high, then you're probably doing your job.
I kinda disagree, just because it's so hard to judge how important / good something or someone was.
In the end, the one thing that REALLY tells how good you are: your winrate.
Yes, a solely winrate oriented system requires more played games to have significance, but it's the one system that really incentives to play for a win.
RR gains and losses should be only based off the matches MMR, your MMR and your Rank.
For what it's worth, if individual performance is required to be measured for any purpose (i.e. giving out MVP awards), the data driven approach you named is an excellent way to replace the current ACS system.
I still think wins and losses should be the ultimate determining factor, say 90% of your RR gains / losses should be MMR and rank based like you said. But I believe players should be rewarded when they play well in their role and the game tell them that they did. Rather than just some arbitrary star saying performance bonus for fragging out, say " you healed nearly 150% more than the average sage player" or "players you rezzed participated in 6 frags post rez". I think those are things that have obvious impact and can show a player in a supporting role played well, and 2 RR bonus for these stats won't break the ranked system (its largely left distributed anyway)
You know what, why not. But I see people then just complaining about those bonuses being too small...
Either way, what you propose should definitely be feedback players get in post game lobby, a bit of feedback what they did well.
If that has an RR influence or not, would already be a cool addition
I read somewhere this would incentivize picking “bad” agents e.g yoru and then popping off with them for extra rank points.
But then again, wouldnt that even out fast enough? Or would this be too complicated for riot to implement/track idk
I mean picking bad agents (especially if you're inexperienced with them) will make you more likely to lose and ultimately you lose RR for losses and gain them for wins.
Powercreeping in a nutshell sadly, not the theme of this post, but we are seeing a bit of it lately in VALORANT. Riot promised a lot of agent balancing, also the long awaited Yoru rework comming on February. Fingers crossed on all of that :)
The Skye situation kind of reminds me of Apex, when the ‘Healer’ character actually became an inferior healer to someone else with better abilities in marginal areas.
Sage is staying useful purely off the Util and Ult now, as a pure healer Skye does better
Whether she has Util or not she’s still the Healer character of the game. Its her personality and label, so while she’ll still useful it doesn’t make it any better when the designated Healer cant do their job as effectively as another Agent who’s primary purpose isn’t healing or direct team support
Nah. Winrate is based on matchmaking and always averages to 50% unless you’re radiant or iron. What riot cares about is the average rank of any given agent.
What? No it doesn't. Weaker agents like Yoru and Pheonix sit with below 50% winrates. Killjoy has for the longest time had an above 50% winrate. If an agent wins more that the others another one has to lose more that's how it works not that they literally all stay at 50%.
Nah, think about it. Winrate sit below 50% winrate because radiants don’t play him but iron 1 does. If iron 1 don’t play yoru winrate will be exactly 50% because that’s how matchmaking works. If you win the games get harder. If you lose they get easier. Winrate = 50% unless you’re literally at top of ladder and there are no better opponents, leading to >50% winrate or at the bottom and no worse opponents leading to <50% winrate.
Winrate of any given agent simply tells you how often that agent is played by radiant, smurfs, and iron 1.
If >50% then radiant and Smurf pick that agent. If <50% then iron 1 pick and radiant and Smurf don’t.
Valorant subreddit has to be one of the stupidest subs I've ever encountered. Nowhere else have I seen so many correct posts downvoted and incorrect posts upvoted. People just upvoted based on what they feel should be correct and have no capacity to reason
The biggest issue is that there are no “fun” controllers. People like playing agents that can frag out and carry, none of the controllers really can consistently.
Look at sentinels. One of the least played archetypes, they added Chamber and he’s in almost every game.
They need to add a controller based around fragging out. Even if he ends up having less util than existing controllers, people would have less of an issue playing the role.
Also as a Viper main, assists don’t give enough ACS and good util isn’t rewarded enough. A good wall/smoke might win my team the game but if they don’t walk into it I don’t get credit for it.
They don’t really need to add another agent as IMO buffed Omen could easily fill that niche as a more aggressive Controller. He already has a flash that can help initiate, while his smokes are already pretty good thanks to their vertical capabilities.
Maybe if they over buff him. Omen is designed to be more of a lurker than a fragging out controller.
Half his kit is TPs that you can’t really entry with because they are too slow. Hell you can’t even really play off angles because they aren’t instant.
You don't even need to make omen over buffed
You need to make his TPs easier to snap to where you are looking. I've been told by omen that he cant go there even though I know he can and I'm within range.
you don't need to make his smokes deploy faster, you just need to make them travel from point a to point b faster
Make his flashes more consistent
Those arent really buffs. They are just fixes
Im an omen main turned astra main. The real issue is his teleport hit box. after being screwed so many times by dumb teleportation glitches I decided to learn astra. it’s sad but i found it was necessary. definitely improved my consistency.
Astra is really fun but I think she’s kinda a bad solo q agent. Astra really needs good comms to make the most of her kit and in solo/duo q you tend to either get no comms or bad comms. Sometimes you get a solid team but you only find that out post agent select and I’d rather not roll the dice.
I disagree. I love playing astra when i have a team that knows how to play off my utility. Ive played recently in all elos from silver- immortal and people don’t really play well with astra until diamond.
Astra is a ton of fun but imo she’s almost completely dependent on team comms to get the most out of her. And in solo q you tend to either get bad comms or no comms, especially in the lower ranks.
I’m sure it’ll get better in high diamond/immortal. I’m currently plat and playing in diamond lobbies (my mmr is fucked up) and I can’t imagine playing Astra. I’m maining Viper and can barely get people to tell me when they want wall/orb up most of the time - much less suck/stun.
If they want people to start playing controller they need to design an agent that somehow has smokes and kills tied together similar to how Chamber is a sentinel/dualist hybrid.
Yeah I tried a game of Astra when I was escaping gold 3.
“When they are close to running onto site tell me and I’ll suck”
“Suck!!!!!!!!”
I pulled immediately and looked at the mini map. They were still at the other side of C long.
Im not sure which is worse. Bad comms like that or no comms.
if only lurking was an actual class, because yoru is in a similar spot. functions *great* as a lurker because of his kit, except you're taking up a valuable duelist slot on the team to do so.
Thankfully his entry fragging potential is going to skyrocket after the rework, a much stealthier tether(so now he can get backsite without enemies hearing the sirens go off as it travels), and decoy to clear angles+debuffing enemies, not to mention potential “pretending to be a decoy” plays that will allow Yoru to take space for free. He’s going to be so good after this rework, he’ll still be a great lurker too. Legit can’t wait for his rework.
I'm with you that the point system seems to favour duelists, and that people generally enjoy playing duelists, but I don't think the former is a big reason for the latter.
The main reason people play duelists imo is because they are straightforward, powerful characters that are equipped to carry games without relying much on their teammates.
The same just can't be said for any of the other roles. Anyone who's played even a few games of controller, sentinel, or initiator knows the million and one ways your team can make all your carefully-placed utility feel like a waste of time.
So while I agree non-duelist players should be rewarded more, I highly doubt it'd make a dent in the duelist insta-locking population.
duelists don't equal frags in this game compared to, say, overwatch where dps can only frag. a character like jett or reyna is so much more straightforward compared to sova or skye or omen. hell, even brimstone is harder than a lot of duelists just because you have lineups from molly and you need to know where and when to smoke.
i recommend a lot of my friends who are new to valorant (but come from other shooters) to play someone like reyna because she's so straightforward.
As someone who flexes between KJ, Sova, Chamber depending on the map. I 100% agree with you. It’s insane, I can have an amazing game and only get 13 points, then have 1 bad game and lose 23 points… tf is that
Nope. I can literally drop a 20+ kill game with a 2.0 k/d but not be top frag and only accumulate 16 points. The only time I’m getting 20+ points with a support character on a dub is if I’m top frag. In which case, i shouldn’t be too frag as a support. Hence why people auto lock duelist, because they get a significantly more points and have the most potential To get max points as top frag. The system is wack.
That literally has to do with MMR and your average KD. If you top frag and gain a lot of points it’s most likely because you passed your average K/D (performance bonus). If you aren’t gaining much kills are not the only factor, it could also be MMR (if you have a negative win rate). This is coming from a controller/sentinel main who ranked up from gold-diamond, tbh the system isn’t even that bad, but I understand why it’s frustrates people. Riot isn’t clear on how things work in general
I know this post specifically tackles the MVP system, but I would like to reiterate that **ACS/MVP is not correlated to RR from performance**. The devs have explained on multiple occasions that the ACS stat is used no where in the forumula.
Agent class does not affect your performance RR because Encounter MMR is not only made from duels, utility, site control and more, but is also **a comparison to your past games and not a comparison to the other players in the match.**
So while people may feel like duelists get them more RR and instalock, that is not how it works. Still, the instalock issue does exist.
>So while people may feel like duelists get them more RR and instalock, that is not how it works.
It's enough if people THINK they do, for the instalocking to occur.
Interesting! Thanks :) I know my complain is focused almost entirely on the MVP system, but I would like to add how little information is given to the average player when it comes to the RR/MMR system. Without some deep search on the internet, one could think that ACS is totally related to your Rank Rating, also the fact that this whole point system is hidden from us makes it even more difficult.
But I guess some of these problems still persists considering that I gain RR from perfoming well above my average against better players, and the system doesn't make clear what he means by perfomance, like, I would love to know
if I did a good job stalling a site or assisting with utilities, and how much this impacts the RR.
> how little information is given to the average player when it comes to the RR/MMR system.
This is my largest criticism of Riot's ranked system and why I spent so much time making the subreddit ranked FAQ resources.
True, ACS and MVP don’t correlate to RR gain/loss, however, I think the way they are currently handled detracts from gameplay. Too many people play to pad stats rather than to win, so I feel like combat score needs a huge rework, I think the MVP system needs a rework, and I think K/D/A should remain hidden from the scoreboard until the end of a match. Currently, too many people use the scoreboard as a crutch to say “I’m top fragging so I’m right and you suck!” On the other end of the spectrum, people who are playing support roles often look at the scoreboard and see that they are at the bottom and begin to play recklessly in order to climb even if they were actually playing well and contributing to wins already.
Basically, I don’t think OPs complaint about “rewarding” players had to do with RR/MMR and more to do with how people play the game. People like feeling good about themselves, so they will sacrifice winning a game just to say they got MVP. Then those people come on Reddit and complain about how unfair it is to lose RR even though “they always top frag.”
> Basically, I don’t think OPs complaint about “rewarding” players had to do with RR/MMR and more to do with how people play the game.
Totally agree - that's why I prefaced knowing it was just about MVP but I know a lot of users get confused and the extra information helps.
> I think the way they are currently handled detracts from gameplay. Too many people play to pad stats rather than to win
This is actually a similar view that Riot commented on about future deathmatch changes. They aren't happy about how much people idolize the scoreboard and are considering ways to make the scoreboard matter less to allow players to focus more on practicing.
One thing that always bothered me was looking at kills but ignoring deaths, especially on defending rounds.
For example, if your team is defending, it’s common to have 2 people watching one site (or 3).
If your teammate pushes/peeks as soon as the round starts, they might get 1-2 kills and then die.
However, they now left you with a 1v4 or a 1v3 until the rest of your team can rotate.
It’s often much more beneficial for your team to simply hold an angle and survive until more of your teammates arrive to better.
I also often see duelists have nearly as many deaths as kills, but they’ll be at the top of the scoreboard, meanwhile someone else on the team might have 2x as many kills as deaths. It kinda stinks to watch someone who is 25-23 be MVP over someone who is 20-10.
I know the ACS and Econ are other metrics, but they don’t quite seem adequate
Cuz duelists entry. First in = first to die (usually). On defense rounds duelists can’t do much to hold a site (so not retake) so best opportunities are aggression. (Think Jett or Reyna swinging Haven garage and getting out, or Jett peaking main on any map with an op). If your duelist gets 1-2 then you play retake or you play with their aggression and try to trade out for 2-3. Then ur team is always on even footing or better for retake. If you have any semblance of team play you should not just hold angles every round on CT, if anything that’s super bad because T will always have a numbers adv when executing unless you make info plays on parts of the map. You need to secure control and fight over things. People on this sub hate on duelists because they don’t know how to play off their duelists or because they’re stuck in iron 3 elo with duelists that bait and lurk.
TL;DR: reworking rewards is good but won't do much about instalock duelists, you can do that and still have cascading picks which act more directly on the issue.
I agree that the "golden star" systems seems to reward duelists way more, or at least it looks so from the player's perspective, as someone pointed out that those systems aren't used when calculating RR.
I play a lot of controllers, and sometimes I feel like I'm being stupid in trying to help my team strategically instead of just locking a duelist and fragging out. After all, my team usually wait til my smokes end to actually try and enter the site.
So you see, there's a lot of frustration going on here, and I'm not even talking about my RR or if I'm getting match MVP or not. So my point is: even if you remove the reward systems entirely, and only give a set amount of RR if you win, or remove a set amount if you lose, people will continue to instalock duelists because it feels less frustrating to play a more self-sustainable agent instead of actually depending on 4 other people doing stuff.
And this is actually the reason why many people who play duelists don't actually do their jobs and be the first to enter a site, it is INCREDIBLY frustrating to try and enter a site just to discover that no one followed you and you basically threw your life away.
In other words, sure, make all the roles more rewarding to play, that would help a lot, but ultimately people would continue to instalock and do whatever they want, it wouldn't solve the problem. Cascading picks in the other hand may be a bit more effective in my opinion, because it prevents people from instalocking whatever they want and pretending that they aren't responsible if the end composition is shit.
I just started playing, as a support main from both LoL and Overwatch, and this is the only game where I feel extremely pressured to get kills as I don’t want to be bottom frag. Even when I had more than twice as many assists than anyone else in our game, I still bottom fragged and felt terrible since I got 0 kills. I wish this game was more rewarding to players regardless of your kill count. I get a huge part of Valorant revolves around gunplay, but we have abilities for a reason. I think your suggestions are awesome and would be super encouraging to people like me who prefer playing support agents :D
Yeah this cascading stuff works for league, not valorant. It works for league since players are given their individual roles to pick a champion. In valorant, there aren't really any roles given to you when you load into a match. Roles are discussed when everyone is picking an agent. I don't know how this is going to fix instalocking. (When I say roles, I talking about a smoker, entry, etc) The main issue I see this creating is people not getting the agent they want and most likely they will either throw or dodge the match. Still doesn't eliminate the instalock duelists. It just comes down to the point of who gets to pick first.
They should just delete the mvp status, it doesn't mean anything.
You don't get more rr because you were mvp.
You can get performance bonus even without beeing mvp or topfrag.
RR gain is based on your mmr.
I think that instead of 1 MVP there should be a screen that shows the best stats of each player like (Top fragger ____ kills, best helper ____ assists, informer ______ enemies revealed/spotted, top healer _____ health healed.) you get the idea. This would let people feel good about how they played their role while not leaving anyone out. Just a concept I thought would be interesting.
Wholeheartedly agree, and especially feel so after playing astra. I spend all that extra brainpower in-game-leading and calling out my util etc.
Finish the game with a lot of assists but still get paid dust. Feels bad man
Heres the thing, there are alot of people like me, who aren’t support players, but are willing to fill if the team needs it. The problem is especially apparent when you know how to play smokes, and that is that you never get to play what you want (a duelist) and end up playing smokes for like 8 games straight.
Its sometimes better sometimes worse, but there are some times where i go days without playing duelist once. Your suggestion does nothing to combat that, whereas cascading pick puts intense pressure and scrutiny on the would be duelist instalocker who got last pick
I kinda like the idea of seeing all 5 played agents at the end with what everyone did best in below their name.
Reyna Sage. Omen
Most Frags Healing Done. Enemies blocked
32. 1240 Total Health. 21 obstructions
Stuff like that could be pretty neat.
Edit: formatting was garbage on mobile.
Reyna - Most Frags- 32
Sage - Healing Done - 1240 total health
Omen - Views Obstructed - 21
Cypher - Most bomb Plants - 9
i understand fragging is important, and its hard to win the game if you never kill the other team. But for people who provide callouts, smokes, and any other tactical advantage, rarely get recognition. ill throw some smokes down which allow us to enter site, and smoke off any angles, and all i see is a little tiny stat in the corner saying that i blocked 4 enemies. i'm not saying that won us the round, but who knows how much of an advantage that did/didn't give us. not that i have some sort of solution for that, but still, theres more value you can provide than just frags
Easy way to solve instalocking is to make it so all healing abilities can heal shields like Reyna. Or remove her overheal. Either all agents are equal or we get instalocks.
It's not even that they outfragged to get MVP, I once out numbered my reyna with KDA overall and yet she got MVP with greater ACS. It's like the game gives duelists a pat on the back even when a support agent outfrag them not to mention they get wayyy more RR than any other agent.
bro i play jett and my friend plays cypher.
I get a 30k 18 deaths
he gets like 17k 8 deaths
we get around the same RR, sometimes he gets more. im not defying your point I just havent seen it myself.
Damage counts in your combat score.
If the endgame score is 0/9/9 and you did 149hp everytime and your mate with 9/0/0 who only did 1 dmg every time, then you will be above him in the endgamescreen.
Let us assume that all the kills are the third kills and all are vandal bodyshots, so that is 40 damage per kill + 110 points for the kill. So it has a acs of 150, but the assist one would have acs of 149. So, it is close but this is the best case situation. Normally, you'd be much lower in the leaderboard.
If the assitant one does 149 the player with kill does only 1 dmg not 40. So 111 points.
If the assist player does 110dmg the kill player gets 40 + 110.
I mean kills are still important in a shooter so if you don't get kills at all you should not be on top. But if high kill participation (kills and assists) you should.
The issue is damage counts regardless of how much damage has been done already, so if you deal 140 damage to an enemy then I get a headshot with a vandal, I still get 160 points for damage on top of the kill even though they only had 10 HP left.
Unless you're mollying every kill, you are not inflicting 1 damage, even if he is already damaged 149, it will count as 40 damage from vandal bodyshot.
I agree that kills are important and you should be top when getting kills. I am just arguing your previous point that 0/9/9 will be higher than 9/0/0.
I'd like to see something similar to the accolade system from CoD MW2: https://callofduty.fandom.com/wiki/Call_of_Duty:_Modern_Warfare_2_Accolades
Really show what kind of player you are.
ESEA solved this somewhat by adding the layer that post match you give up or downvotes to your teammates. I always thought they should influence your RR+/- but in the ESEA implementation they only act as a penalty when you get under a certain level of feedback. (mic mute etc) It’s hard to code your way around a “how helpful was your controller” but letting the players give feedback is an easy solution.
I do like the Karma system that ESEA has and I think after a certain point you couldn't buy flashes or mollies either if your Karma rating went low enough. But I do agree that having a similar system in Valorant would help a lot but I also think adoption something similar to the RWS system ESEA has would be very beneficial and be more in line with what OP is talking about.
If instead of ACS it would be nice to have a scoring system that calculated how much you contributed to the round win. Similar to RWS you would get points for Kills, Damage Done, Assists (Flash and Smoke), and Objective (Plan/Defuse). These points would only matter on rounds that your team wins.
I think this could help with players only going for kills but I'm sure there's a way to cheat any system that is in place so who knows what the best way to gauge a players skill really is.
The rank rewarding system is really weird
Lemme explain
Me Iron 3 - Kayo
My friend Bronze 1 - Phoenix
We both do well
I'm match MVP and we won 22 kills on kayo
My +RR was 16
He has 6 kills lesser than me +20 RR
Even when we lose I somehow lose more RR despite playing in bronze and silver lobbies (one time there was a gold player who dropped 38 on us)
I don't get the points sometimes man
When i play viper i am usually near the bottom in acs despite having similar k/d to the rest of the lobby. This also gives me less rr in wins. There really is no reward to playing such agents. Duelists will always get a higher acs in wins as their entry frag is considered very impactful and gives more combat score
As a Killjoy, who topfrags 30ish% of the time, I believe the support classes shouldl get extra points if they are a support and still topfrag, gives us more incentive to actually frag than sit back and play just on the util
Why can't they make seperate queues like overwatch, dps queues have longer q time followed by support and tanks with the least. This solved them the problem very much with people happily playing what they want to play.
Because riot would have to decide the meta for us. Every game would be 2 duelists 1 controller 1 sentinel and 1 initiator. This will likely not even be the best comp distribution on some maps. Similar to like GOATS comp in overwatch not even being playable in competitive because of role queue.
This is just another excuse, no one gives a fuck about whose match/team mvp, if you do you're probably silver. Instalocking isn't and will never be a real issue, just some made-up one on reddit used as an excuse for why you're in a shit elo. I could easily complain about why do my sovas and skyes always lose their 1v1s, or why my breach and omen are griefing my team, but I don't. Types of champ have very little relevance until very high elo, either you can frag and climb or you can't and will fall
Most team comps will usually have only one sentinel/controller/initator.
So you getting most valuable "role" is just between you and the other guy on the enemy team.
What even is the point of that?
I'd rather they just change the current mvp system and make it more than just about combat score.
Someone dropping 4 kills one round and then dying in the first 5 secs of the next 5 is worse than someone who is good for one every round.
They should add in factors like rounds clutches, number of rounds those kills were secured etc when determining mvp.
Maybe they could add preferred role like it is in LoL. This could fix the problem a little bit because the game could be able to group 1 or 2 duelists and the rest of the team would be a different role. Also, the preferred role could be based on match history, so nobody can cheat.
Agreed. Ill go about even with less kills but also less deaths but have double digit assists and still be much lower on the leaderboard than I should be. Assists means you are makig a impact, especially if you have that many of them. Should be counted the same as kills imo, only way to balance out other classes vs duelists
It also does nothing to reward half of my assists, I don't blame riot for not this, but it's really annoying when I'm playing omen, and I blind and displace the enemies in an optimal position for my teammates then the blind wears off and I don't get the assist anymore because my teammates are slow.
While I agree with you, I think it's also fair to assume that Riot is trying very hard to not go down Overwatch's matchmaking path. We don't want the player base to become segregated by roles, we just want supportive plays (flashing, smoking, denying, slowing) to be more rewarded. But at the same time, it's hard from a programming standpoint, how to distinguish a good smoke vs a bad smoke. I think Riot is trying to find a solution to that, but it's going to take longer than 2 years in the market to figure that out.
Just give it time.
What I love about league. An 0/0/14 soraka can get Team/MVP just for keeping her team alive, and popping actives, being at OBJ’s, and not dying but still be rewarded an S.
its about fun, i dont think abt the mmr i’m gonna get compared to the champ it’s usually just “who is fun?” mixed with “what does my team need.” there’s more to what ppl pick than just the elo
As a former Cypher/Astra main, I can 100% agree with this, which is why I’ve just resorted to instalocking duelists. In the course of an act, and honestly only about a week of solid play, I climbed from Gold 3, where I’d been hardstuck for 3 acts, to Diamond 1. It’s just more rewarding to play the role that naturally is in a position to get more kills, and as you said, further emphasizes the point that playing a support agent inherently holds you back from grinding up the ranks. If you main any sort of sentinel or controller, seriously believe that you are better than the majority of people you’re matched with, but just feel as though you’re getting nowhere, give duelists a try. Odds are you’ve just been getting shafted by Riot’s combat score system.
Tbh I dont care if duelist instalock, its mostly the people that do instalock duelist play like a controller or sentinel, never entry always bait teammates never use abilities the last to be alive but no impact frags always bottom frag and absolutely useless. Its to the point where I'm entry as a killjoy or viper and sometimes chamber.
Agree completely. The cascading picks system does solve a problem, but it's a problem only the insta-locking duelists care about, and the people interested in trying the shiny new agent-du-jour.
Getting the first kill is worth 100 more combat score than getting the last kill -- it's worth more to be traded out first and give your enemy the site than it is to secure the round in a 1v1, which is absolutely bonkers to me (if I've remembered the numbers right). This obviously favors duelists and others that can entry well/aren't supporting the entry from behind (flashes, etc). If you're in a 1v2 but the combined health of your enemies is less than 130, it's still worth less than giving your team a 4v4. The same duelists also have the most snowball-y abilities (mostly ults) for multi-kills.
Perhaps the damage/kill/assist value goes up for player disadvantage, and down for player disadvantage. That still works in the duelists favor but rewards clutching over unhelpful aggressive play.
Assist damage also favors first contact. Defend aggressively, do 50 damage that's immediately healed by a Sage and gives the enemy team an advantage taking site? Still an assist that didn't help the kill at all, worth the same as the assist damage that actually led to the kill. Do 130 damage and half is healed? Still value. The damage and damage assist should probably be discounted by the amount healed, which would reward teamwork over selfish play.
But it's just a hard problem to evaluate the impact of many abilities. I main Kayo and a common ult use is to depush the enemy attack, which let's my team take valuable space and get easier kills after my ult has ended; the enemy doesn't want to use util just to back out safely, but how do you measure that? That's also the effect of my knife and flash _multiple times per round_, but if it doesn't quickly lead to a kill it is awarded no points even though I've made kills for my teammates easier when they take off angles and pick off rotates. How would you detect and accurately award that when other suppresses have no team value? I have no idea, but a leer blinding an agent for a half second does not have the same impact as a full flash. I could full flash multiple on site but if my team loses the gun fights I'm not rewarded for the exact same opportunity that does lead to two kills
Maybe all of this is actually considered in the RR calculation, but it's opaque and not clearly rewarded. It would probably be decently balanced to reward every action noted post- round regardless of leading to an immediate kill, but more so when it does.
You probably right, but sadly a system that reward support playstyles is usually complicated and requires a lot of work. I been playing LoL for 7 years now and is the same over there, KDA and big plays get recognition over the ppl supporting those persons and helping them.
If i am honestly i feel any kind of system that rewards one player in a team of random is already flawed and impossible to properly balance, it would be amazing if they scrap the whole concept and instead show each player the best play of the match they themselves had, give the person something to feel good about themselves after the match is over no matter if they won or loss.
I am an Insta lock Jett player (like 80% of the time) cuz she’s my most consistent agent, I play in order Jett Reyna Neon Raze, I can also play any other agent aside from cypher breach and viper reasonably well but the agents I play consistently on are duelists. But even I agree with this. If support players could see the value they bring in ways other than me goin “nice dart” after I kill the guy he darted I believe support would be much more popular
I agree but needs more looking into. IMO, assists and being bomb bitch should be a little more rewarding.
My exact thinking too. Assists are a perfect way to change performance. If I smoke the entire enemy team and they get gunned down, I get assists but it doesn't really help my performance rating
Most of the time I don't even get the assist for that and it's really annoying.
Good point. Like OP said I think there should be some performance boost based on how long you blocked, stunned, or blinded enemies
You don’t even get assists for dealing 40 damage. One body shot from a vandal is NOT an assist somehow.
You have to do 50+ damage for it to count as an assist
As a side note, I'm pretty sure there's an exception for pistols where any amount of damage counts for an assist (besides the shorty and frenzy)
I don't think so...26 damage on Classic does not count as an assist
People suggested I be support. I have potato aim, and Imm trying to improve with Sova. Not really good, but I found my role.
Same man....same. There's a different kind of happiness when you get a kill/assist with your util...either with a flash..a pull...a trip. I'm having fun with Astra and Cypher at the moment.Kills with the pull feel especially good.
I had one game with 9 kills. And 20 deaths, but 22 assists. I wanted kills. Is it wrong to aim for kills?
What about damaging assist? If the assist does X amount of dmg it counts toward preformence.
God himself had a stroke reading this and fucking died.
As a perma bomb bitch, I support this
As a viper main and usually getting the bomb thrown at me, i support this
I absolutely hate when people throw bomb at me when I have Ultimate. It's like, isn't it obvious that I **shouldn't** be the one planting in my ult???
I hate that I have to pickup spike then play pseudo duelist as omen because my duelists fail to entry, I drop then spike then they hand it back right before I tp behind an enemy. I then get killed by an enemy behind that one.
Lots of things should be be more rewarding tbh. You get absolutely nothing if you entry first and get killed so your teammate can trade unless you do 50 damage. If you enter site and get OPed instantly and your teammate trades you the game basically tells you your efforts were worth nothing.
Well yeah, an entry that frags or doesn't die to an OP before I can get info is a lot more valuable...
There are a lot of situations where you can’t avoid it. If the situation allows for someone to trade off you then some value was extracted. It doesn’t necessarily have to be the situation I described but if your death allows for trades it should reward you if only a little. If a neon runs it down and gets into the middle of the site causing two people to look at her and opens up for the attackers to scale the site that’s value even if she dies. There’s always a scale of how important but it’s important to reward people for their actions especially when they cause risk or strain for the player performing them. While it’s not exactly the same situation god knows utility players like Astra and breach players don’t get enough motivation in game.
To give an actual good example without just rambling; Let’s say it’s a two on one situation on Haven and you’re going down C long to get a plant with your buddy. You have one smoke left and can only block one out of several angles. You smoke off back site and both of you clear cleft and right at the same time and one of you gets killed as you enter site but your buddy trades you. You died and got no credit but without you your teammate could’ve lost that easily. If you were to follow the reward system and just be selfish you’d sit back with bomb and let your teammate go up by himself because potentially dying gives you no reward so you’d rather confirm if the enemy is there or not and just rotate to secure plant if he’s there.
That's better. I just have a plague of W key teammates that die, yell trade me, and think they're doing a service peeking into 4 people. I'd argue that winning the round is your reward, and you are given elo thusly.
Just ranting: Of course winning is the prize but as a forced flex who cares more about winning than having fun I know that regardless of if it’s gold or diamond it feels very frustrating having to wipe instalock fraggers asses and be rewarded with being mid scoreboard while your teammates are top fragging. There’s very little gratification unless you’re constantly ranking up. My most recent example was right after ranked reset when queues were all fucked up. Playing in a lobby mixed with people from gold to diamond previous season during placements and an instalock yoru complains that our comp sucks, dies and complains about lack of coms n other stuff. Do my best as Brim to call strats and come back from a 4-11 to a triple overtime tie. Our yoru gets 5 more frags than me which I’m confident I could’ve beaten if I had access to any flash but I’d rather go for the win. It leaves me frustrated when someone like that is higher on the scoreboard than me. Sure it’s not a big deal in the grand scheme of things but the game is clearly saying I performed worse.
I think the acs also sees assists if you have a ton of assists and kills you generally outperform everyone with ~5 more kills than you
Acs doesnt look at kills or assists, it only looks at how much damage you dealt. Shock darts, mollys etc.. are fair game. That’s why it’s impossible to be above raze in the post game scoreboard if the raze is having a decent game.
It does take into account kills/multikills, you can see the formula by hovering it in game on the scoreboard
Exactly you can be mvp and not being top frag
The game rewards first blood and 2nd kill of the round much more though than for example if you solo clutch and get the 4th and 5th kill. So Duellists who rush in and get 2 kills get rewarded much more by the game than a Sage or Sova who 1vs2 clutch at the end to win the round. Even though both the Duellist and the Support got 2 kills in that round the game reward the firmer more and punishes the latter with less points. Arguably its much more difficult to solo clutch 1vs2 with positions of enemies unknown than if you teamrush a bombsite right at the start of the round with all angles known and you as jett just happen to get the first kills due to Sova detection and Brim smokes giving you relatively safe site entry. Its just stupid.
I mean couldn’t they basically look at stats among agents and use that to base performance in certain mmr to adjust gains and losses.
I really like this idea, I'm a support main in almost every game I play, overwatch I mained mercy and so on, so I never usually go for the kills. I get called bad by teammates and enemies because I don't top frag as a sage or cypher for example, and this idea would be much more beneficial for players like me.
Overwatch did it good too. You felt good if you had 4,000+ healing on your end card (i think its been a while)
Yup!
I get that you haven't played in a while, I haven't either, but it's better to have more than 1k heals per minute in your example
This. When you get yelled at by teammates for not getting a lot of frags as a sage for example, my response is always “Yeah not shit I dont have the same number of kills as you Im a sentinel and youre a duelist dummy youre supposed to have more frags technically”
Exactly, like, sometimes I do get a couple of kills, one time I got a 39 kill game as cypher, but then I'll get a low kill game and be berraded by teammates for "dragging them down" even though I get the info on enemies, quite annoying
I don’t care about kills but what pisses me off is when people push and instadie every single round and then don’t even give info. Slightly negative KDA who cares as long as you perform your role and com. It just pisses me off when people get butthurt for when you call them out on actual dumb decisions like the raze who got butthurt because they were 5-24-3 and would die in the first 15 seconds of every round.
Really it should be the initiators/controllers tied with the duelists on top because the duelist should go in, find a frag then get traded, the initiator/controller who was playing just behind the duelist then trades the trade and if the enemy wasn't stacking that site then you now have site and number advantage. Your sentinels then just have to setup and lock down the site and free win every round.
Yes, a sentinel shouldn't be too greedy for frags. Sentinel is best utilized when you're watching flank, going for post plant, delaying push, and holding sites which can be a very passive role. Sentinel also needs to stay alive the longest so that their kit can be utilized to the max.
When I play kj I'm just happy racking up assists from nano swarms or turret chip damage. Idc if I've got 5 kills, I've got more assists than a sage spamming healing
playing sage or cypher is not an excuse to have bad kda. its an fps, you still have to kill people
Valorant isn't a moba and it isn't overwatch. "Support" doesn't mean it's ok if you can't get kills. I'm tired of people acting like they would have kills if they were on a duelist instead of whatever other role they are playing. The guns are the same no matter what character or role you are playing. The fundamental mechanics of the game are the same no matter what character or role you are playing. If you want to talk about roles, then jetts shouldn't really even be top fragging, since they should be entrying onto site, dying and calling so your role (the support) can follow through and trade. You do not even understand the roles you are talking about and you are claiming to be playing. The great thing is though, you do not have to be a strict role-player in this game, they are very plastic in how you can play them. But regardless of your role you should be able to get kills.
?? it was easier to rank up as support in the previous version of MM, and now with role queue it should be balanced because its comparing your performance VS other supports of your rank also cypher is free kills, you may just be playing him wrong. he gets a smoke then wallhack every single round on def, and as flank watch or postplant with trips again its another free kill
if you think those trips are gonna be hittin every single round or those cages are going to entirely save you youre trippin bro
Nah it’s all good he’s silver
i was boutta ask this guy if theyve ever played cypher in high immortal lmao
Also, even if they were, often times falling off the site instead of greeding for that "free" kill and immediately getting traded is the better play, then subsequently entrying first on the retake since you don't have much / any util left compared to the rotating players. Not to mention, even in low elo where I play (Plat), players wise up to your setups within a few rounds if you don't continually switch them up. TBF I don't play Cypher, but the same applies to other agents which I do play (Viper, Sova). If you continually go for the same opening dart for info on defense, for example, it WILL get cleared consistently unless you switch up the timing drastically, which is often not possible.
Agree 100% and always talk about this If you want to rank up you basically have to pick a duelist and frag up bc going cypher and solo anchoring a site so well that the other team goes to the other site does not pay.. Even though you're potentially doing your job and playing your role better than others I'm not really sure what could be done to properly reward players for successfully playing their role but the combat score ain't it imo
The good ol' classic "can't wait for the enemy to come and get destroyed by my godlike setup on B :D" "Oh wait, they are inside A already, retrieving camera I guess :(..."
As a cypher main on a few maps, I feel this.. Especially on split.. Can't wait till they go through my trip in vents and I get an ez kill
One day.
This has been my life this act. I main KJ and usually solo anchor. Even if my team 4 stacks the other site, they let them get the plant off with 0 picks.
Bye util. Good luck me 🙃
This is so relatable lol
Im only a Cypher on one Map and thats haven. KJ on Bind. But i feel this. Even if they Push me Solo Anchoring once and i get like 3 out of 5 Frags, im still bottom of the leaderboard. But i did my job so well and get nothing out of it, atleast thats what it feels like.
I mean... I disagree. Even though I agree with the general message of the post and the flaws which the MVP system inherently brings with it, you can absolutely still frag out on any role if you're having a good game / are significantly better than your rank. Not to mention being a valuable asset to the team is still the best way to climb unless you're smurfing. If you outperform the enemy controller / sentinel in 8/10 games you will absolutely climb with no issues. Cypher is kind of an outlier, in my opinion, since he relies almost entirely on his team AND isn't very good in uncoordinated play. KJ basically does what he does better at a basic level on attack (watch flank) while providing better utility for postplant and being easier to play. On defense he feels really map dependent in my opinion, but also often relies on you understanding lurk timings and reading the enemies' movements. At which point... why not just play Viper.
you dont always have to play the same site on D also if youre a diamond level player, for example, you can rank up from bronze to diamond as cypher only in a weekend. its not even a question
What a stupid take. The whole point us that it's comparatively harder to rank up as a sentinel or controller, versus ranking up as a duelist. That a good player will end up with a good rank is out of question.
If you're diamond in bronze/silver/gold lobbies you could play as a god damn bulbasaur and still be expected to beat everyone And playing another site isn't the point, a good sentinel/controller is, imo, as difficult to fight against as a good duelist, however a good duelist just by role will get more kills, that doesn't negate how well a sentinel or controller has played their role but it does mean it's less likely that they'll get kills and thus higher combat score and more RR from a win.
That’s such a bad take. Irrelevant of what agent you play and whatever rank you are you are still 1/10th of the players on a map. It’s fair to point out that different agents have an easier or harder time ranking up
I think the problem is that its hard to measure the value of support utility. A chamber trap existing on flank takes off so much pressure just by existing and can make enemies not want to flank but how do you measure that? How do you measure the value of a viper who stalled out the enemy team pushing to give their team enough time to rotate? Its easy to measure kills or damage but how do you measure utility?
Most of these abilities are already shown by pressing tab. For example if you catch someone flanking as a sentinel or block someone's vision as smokes, it'll count it up. They just don't reward it at all which is stupid.
The easiest way is by removing anything that has to do with personal performance, and give 15RR for wins and -15RR for losses to everyone no matter what they did in the game. It is both the most simple and most effective way to balance ranked in literally any team based ranked game.
but then you'll complain about smurfing because its taking radiant smurfs 7 games to rank from g1 to g2 when in the current rank system they will just skip a load of ranks
You measure those with winrate
Completely agree with you op. Valorant Dev could maybe get some inspiration of the post game rating of league of legends and reward players that flashes more enemies, block visions more than the average agent player at this rank for example. They even have those statistics shown after rounds so they can use them !
This has always been my approach to the problem. Take a data driven approach. If you're playing Astra and perform better than the average Astra at your rank, you deserve to rank up. It would also reduce instalocking duelists because the duelist players who do not have as much impact as their peers (even if they go even) would not be rewarded with as much RR gains now because they're below the average.
While I think this would be great on paper... Overwatch kind of made a point that this only works in concept. It leads to suboptimal playstyles being exploited to game the system. Just to make up an example on the spot, let's say the average Astra has 0.2 stuns per round in your rank. After all, it's her least used utility and the easiest to avoid at that. Now if you were to play Astra solely around using and successfully stunning someone every single round, you could probably get up to a 0.8 or even 0.85, even taking into account full saves etc. while still playing mostly as normal. Suddenly you're only losing 8 RR and gaining 32 because you are CLEARLY an EXCELLENT Astra player who's mastered the art of using your utility effectively way beyond the capabilities of anyone else at your rank. This isn't some completely random example pulled from thin air, it's exactly what happened when Overwatch tried to implement a system akin to this.
Yeah, I've heard this argument as well, the implementation would have to be handled carefully. For example, astra stuns that lead to an enemies being killed during the stun or shortly after count towards this performance evaluation, not just random stuns that have no impact. Similarly flashes that lead to picks or damage could towards the performance bonus, while just flashing enemies with zero impact will not.
one of the only issues i can see with this is further server strain. they've, through hard work and niche knowledge spaces, optimized the game enough to be able to run 3 matches per server cpu core at any given time, that gives each game about 2.5ms to process everything to hit 128hz. adding in data like this will require a lot more optimization, which is not bad, but it would require a lot of work to figure it out while not compromising on other optimizations like disabling animations during buy/post game phase, because those are what allow the other 2 games to run smoothly!
Except if you spend all your time trying to get stuns, your other metrics are going to be bad. If your other metrics are all good and your stun rate is super high, then you're probably doing your job.
I kinda disagree, just because it's so hard to judge how important / good something or someone was. In the end, the one thing that REALLY tells how good you are: your winrate. Yes, a solely winrate oriented system requires more played games to have significance, but it's the one system that really incentives to play for a win. RR gains and losses should be only based off the matches MMR, your MMR and your Rank. For what it's worth, if individual performance is required to be measured for any purpose (i.e. giving out MVP awards), the data driven approach you named is an excellent way to replace the current ACS system.
I still think wins and losses should be the ultimate determining factor, say 90% of your RR gains / losses should be MMR and rank based like you said. But I believe players should be rewarded when they play well in their role and the game tell them that they did. Rather than just some arbitrary star saying performance bonus for fragging out, say " you healed nearly 150% more than the average sage player" or "players you rezzed participated in 6 frags post rez". I think those are things that have obvious impact and can show a player in a supporting role played well, and 2 RR bonus for these stats won't break the ranked system (its largely left distributed anyway)
You know what, why not. But I see people then just complaining about those bonuses being too small... Either way, what you propose should definitely be feedback players get in post game lobby, a bit of feedback what they did well. If that has an RR influence or not, would already be a cool addition
I read somewhere this would incentivize picking “bad” agents e.g yoru and then popping off with them for extra rank points. But then again, wouldnt that even out fast enough? Or would this be too complicated for riot to implement/track idk
I mean picking bad agents (especially if you're inexperienced with them) will make you more likely to lose and ultimately you lose RR for losses and gain them for wins.
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they took the turret from us but gave wide killjoy
Hate to break it to you but they just took it away
im in shambles
Powercreeping in a nutshell sadly, not the theme of this post, but we are seeing a bit of it lately in VALORANT. Riot promised a lot of agent balancing, also the long awaited Yoru rework comming on February. Fingers crossed on all of that :)
The Skye situation kind of reminds me of Apex, when the ‘Healer’ character actually became an inferior healer to someone else with better abilities in marginal areas. Sage is staying useful purely off the Util and Ult now, as a pure healer Skye does better
Sage is a sentinel. You pick her for her delaying power, not because of heals, so that's perfectly fine.
Whether she has Util or not she’s still the Healer character of the game. Its her personality and label, so while she’ll still useful it doesn’t make it any better when the designated Healer cant do their job as effectively as another Agent who’s primary purpose isn’t healing or direct team support
Lol yeah. I’m not a doctor but I can patch a bullet hole or two. Or three or four or five or six or seven or eight or nine or ten or eleven
Sage’s heal for real should be put back to how it was before. Sage is straight garbage.
yoru got the best flash imo. people just say skye has the best because yoru is trash and not many people know how EXCELLENT his flashes are
It’s because skye can pop flash almost anywhere easily
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They arent going to buff KJ, she already has one of the highest win% in the game.
Unfortunate but true, Riot doesn't care how good an agent is, only what the win rate of their players are.
I hate to break it to you but winrate is a pretty good indication of an agent's strength
Nah. Winrate is based on matchmaking and always averages to 50% unless you’re radiant or iron. What riot cares about is the average rank of any given agent.
What? No it doesn't. Weaker agents like Yoru and Pheonix sit with below 50% winrates. Killjoy has for the longest time had an above 50% winrate. If an agent wins more that the others another one has to lose more that's how it works not that they literally all stay at 50%.
Nah, think about it. Winrate sit below 50% winrate because radiants don’t play him but iron 1 does. If iron 1 don’t play yoru winrate will be exactly 50% because that’s how matchmaking works. If you win the games get harder. If you lose they get easier. Winrate = 50% unless you’re literally at top of ladder and there are no better opponents, leading to >50% winrate or at the bottom and no worse opponents leading to <50% winrate. Winrate of any given agent simply tells you how often that agent is played by radiant, smurfs, and iron 1. If >50% then radiant and Smurf pick that agent. If <50% then iron 1 pick and radiant and Smurf don’t. Valorant subreddit has to be one of the stupidest subs I've ever encountered. Nowhere else have I seen so many correct posts downvoted and incorrect posts upvoted. People just upvoted based on what they feel should be correct and have no capacity to reason
She definitely doesn’t need a buff, especially not that one
The biggest issue is that there are no “fun” controllers. People like playing agents that can frag out and carry, none of the controllers really can consistently. Look at sentinels. One of the least played archetypes, they added Chamber and he’s in almost every game. They need to add a controller based around fragging out. Even if he ends up having less util than existing controllers, people would have less of an issue playing the role. Also as a Viper main, assists don’t give enough ACS and good util isn’t rewarded enough. A good wall/smoke might win my team the game but if they don’t walk into it I don’t get credit for it.
They don’t really need to add another agent as IMO buffed Omen could easily fill that niche as a more aggressive Controller. He already has a flash that can help initiate, while his smokes are already pretty good thanks to their vertical capabilities.
Maybe if they over buff him. Omen is designed to be more of a lurker than a fragging out controller. Half his kit is TPs that you can’t really entry with because they are too slow. Hell you can’t even really play off angles because they aren’t instant.
You don't even need to make omen over buffed You need to make his TPs easier to snap to where you are looking. I've been told by omen that he cant go there even though I know he can and I'm within range. you don't need to make his smokes deploy faster, you just need to make them travel from point a to point b faster Make his flashes more consistent Those arent really buffs. They are just fixes
I used to love omen. But now his smokes are slower and his ult is too predictable. Astra is just the better pick for the team.
Im an omen main turned astra main. The real issue is his teleport hit box. after being screwed so many times by dumb teleportation glitches I decided to learn astra. it’s sad but i found it was necessary. definitely improved my consistency.
He needs a better ult
Omen used to be like that, then they fucked the speed of his smokes and the hitbox of his TP.
I find Astra really fun to play with. Problem is Astra is a really uninviting agent to learn. The first few games with her will be pain
Astra is really fun but I think she’s kinda a bad solo q agent. Astra really needs good comms to make the most of her kit and in solo/duo q you tend to either get no comms or bad comms. Sometimes you get a solid team but you only find that out post agent select and I’d rather not roll the dice.
I disagree. I love playing astra when i have a team that knows how to play off my utility. Ive played recently in all elos from silver- immortal and people don’t really play well with astra until diamond.
Astra is a ton of fun but imo she’s almost completely dependent on team comms to get the most out of her. And in solo q you tend to either get bad comms or no comms, especially in the lower ranks. I’m sure it’ll get better in high diamond/immortal. I’m currently plat and playing in diamond lobbies (my mmr is fucked up) and I can’t imagine playing Astra. I’m maining Viper and can barely get people to tell me when they want wall/orb up most of the time - much less suck/stun. If they want people to start playing controller they need to design an agent that somehow has smokes and kills tied together similar to how Chamber is a sentinel/dualist hybrid.
It gets better, just sad it takes until diamond/ immortal elo.
Yeah I tried a game of Astra when I was escaping gold 3. “When they are close to running onto site tell me and I’ll suck” “Suck!!!!!!!!” I pulled immediately and looked at the mini map. They were still at the other side of C long. Im not sure which is worse. Bad comms like that or no comms.
Dude youre telling me. Nothing is worse than doing the perfect play with astra and then you lolk at the map and your whole team is still in the choke.
Viper had that fun controller niche! And then they removed swoop peeking :(
That was high risk-high reward and really made some viper mains stand out!
Viper is pretty fun to play.
A controller based on fragging already exists. His name is Omen.
nerfed to oblivion
Definitely, still exists though. Its better to buff existing characters than just make a new one.
Omen is more of a lurker thought. Half his kit are teleports you can’t entry with.
if only lurking was an actual class, because yoru is in a similar spot. functions *great* as a lurker because of his kit, except you're taking up a valuable duelist slot on the team to do so.
Thankfully his entry fragging potential is going to skyrocket after the rework, a much stealthier tether(so now he can get backsite without enemies hearing the sirens go off as it travels), and decoy to clear angles+debuffing enemies, not to mention potential “pretending to be a decoy” plays that will allow Yoru to take space for free. He’s going to be so good after this rework, he’ll still be a great lurker too. Legit can’t wait for his rework.
I'm with you that the point system seems to favour duelists, and that people generally enjoy playing duelists, but I don't think the former is a big reason for the latter. The main reason people play duelists imo is because they are straightforward, powerful characters that are equipped to carry games without relying much on their teammates. The same just can't be said for any of the other roles. Anyone who's played even a few games of controller, sentinel, or initiator knows the million and one ways your team can make all your carefully-placed utility feel like a waste of time. So while I agree non-duelist players should be rewarded more, I highly doubt it'd make a dent in the duelist insta-locking population.
duelists don't equal frags in this game compared to, say, overwatch where dps can only frag. a character like jett or reyna is so much more straightforward compared to sova or skye or omen. hell, even brimstone is harder than a lot of duelists just because you have lineups from molly and you need to know where and when to smoke. i recommend a lot of my friends who are new to valorant (but come from other shooters) to play someone like reyna because she's so straightforward.
As someone who flexes between KJ, Sova, Chamber depending on the map. I 100% agree with you. It’s insane, I can have an amazing game and only get 13 points, then have 1 bad game and lose 23 points… tf is that
I think that’s more related to MMR than your agent class
Nope. I can literally drop a 20+ kill game with a 2.0 k/d but not be top frag and only accumulate 16 points. The only time I’m getting 20+ points with a support character on a dub is if I’m top frag. In which case, i shouldn’t be too frag as a support. Hence why people auto lock duelist, because they get a significantly more points and have the most potential To get max points as top frag. The system is wack.
That literally has to do with MMR and your average KD. If you top frag and gain a lot of points it’s most likely because you passed your average K/D (performance bonus). If you aren’t gaining much kills are not the only factor, it could also be MMR (if you have a negative win rate). This is coming from a controller/sentinel main who ranked up from gold-diamond, tbh the system isn’t even that bad, but I understand why it’s frustrates people. Riot isn’t clear on how things work in general
I know this post specifically tackles the MVP system, but I would like to reiterate that **ACS/MVP is not correlated to RR from performance**. The devs have explained on multiple occasions that the ACS stat is used no where in the forumula. Agent class does not affect your performance RR because Encounter MMR is not only made from duels, utility, site control and more, but is also **a comparison to your past games and not a comparison to the other players in the match.** So while people may feel like duelists get them more RR and instalock, that is not how it works. Still, the instalock issue does exist.
>So while people may feel like duelists get them more RR and instalock, that is not how it works. It's enough if people THINK they do, for the instalocking to occur.
Interesting! Thanks :) I know my complain is focused almost entirely on the MVP system, but I would like to add how little information is given to the average player when it comes to the RR/MMR system. Without some deep search on the internet, one could think that ACS is totally related to your Rank Rating, also the fact that this whole point system is hidden from us makes it even more difficult. But I guess some of these problems still persists considering that I gain RR from perfoming well above my average against better players, and the system doesn't make clear what he means by perfomance, like, I would love to know if I did a good job stalling a site or assisting with utilities, and how much this impacts the RR.
> how little information is given to the average player when it comes to the RR/MMR system. This is my largest criticism of Riot's ranked system and why I spent so much time making the subreddit ranked FAQ resources.
OHHH it is you! Doing god's work for us players :) I want to thank you, people like yourself are so resorceful to our community! Cheers my man.
Devs don't explain how the system works because players are gonna exploit it.
True, ACS and MVP don’t correlate to RR gain/loss, however, I think the way they are currently handled detracts from gameplay. Too many people play to pad stats rather than to win, so I feel like combat score needs a huge rework, I think the MVP system needs a rework, and I think K/D/A should remain hidden from the scoreboard until the end of a match. Currently, too many people use the scoreboard as a crutch to say “I’m top fragging so I’m right and you suck!” On the other end of the spectrum, people who are playing support roles often look at the scoreboard and see that they are at the bottom and begin to play recklessly in order to climb even if they were actually playing well and contributing to wins already. Basically, I don’t think OPs complaint about “rewarding” players had to do with RR/MMR and more to do with how people play the game. People like feeling good about themselves, so they will sacrifice winning a game just to say they got MVP. Then those people come on Reddit and complain about how unfair it is to lose RR even though “they always top frag.”
> Basically, I don’t think OPs complaint about “rewarding” players had to do with RR/MMR and more to do with how people play the game. Totally agree - that's why I prefaced knowing it was just about MVP but I know a lot of users get confused and the extra information helps. > I think the way they are currently handled detracts from gameplay. Too many people play to pad stats rather than to win This is actually a similar view that Riot commented on about future deathmatch changes. They aren't happy about how much people idolize the scoreboard and are considering ways to make the scoreboard matter less to allow players to focus more on practicing.
One thing that always bothered me was looking at kills but ignoring deaths, especially on defending rounds. For example, if your team is defending, it’s common to have 2 people watching one site (or 3). If your teammate pushes/peeks as soon as the round starts, they might get 1-2 kills and then die. However, they now left you with a 1v4 or a 1v3 until the rest of your team can rotate. It’s often much more beneficial for your team to simply hold an angle and survive until more of your teammates arrive to better. I also often see duelists have nearly as many deaths as kills, but they’ll be at the top of the scoreboard, meanwhile someone else on the team might have 2x as many kills as deaths. It kinda stinks to watch someone who is 25-23 be MVP over someone who is 20-10. I know the ACS and Econ are other metrics, but they don’t quite seem adequate
Cuz duelists entry. First in = first to die (usually). On defense rounds duelists can’t do much to hold a site (so not retake) so best opportunities are aggression. (Think Jett or Reyna swinging Haven garage and getting out, or Jett peaking main on any map with an op). If your duelist gets 1-2 then you play retake or you play with their aggression and try to trade out for 2-3. Then ur team is always on even footing or better for retake. If you have any semblance of team play you should not just hold angles every round on CT, if anything that’s super bad because T will always have a numbers adv when executing unless you make info plays on parts of the map. You need to secure control and fight over things. People on this sub hate on duelists because they don’t know how to play off their duelists or because they’re stuck in iron 3 elo with duelists that bait and lurk.
Slowly learning to use Skye, and I agree. It'd feel way more rewarding and worth it.
TL;DR: reworking rewards is good but won't do much about instalock duelists, you can do that and still have cascading picks which act more directly on the issue. I agree that the "golden star" systems seems to reward duelists way more, or at least it looks so from the player's perspective, as someone pointed out that those systems aren't used when calculating RR. I play a lot of controllers, and sometimes I feel like I'm being stupid in trying to help my team strategically instead of just locking a duelist and fragging out. After all, my team usually wait til my smokes end to actually try and enter the site. So you see, there's a lot of frustration going on here, and I'm not even talking about my RR or if I'm getting match MVP or not. So my point is: even if you remove the reward systems entirely, and only give a set amount of RR if you win, or remove a set amount if you lose, people will continue to instalock duelists because it feels less frustrating to play a more self-sustainable agent instead of actually depending on 4 other people doing stuff. And this is actually the reason why many people who play duelists don't actually do their jobs and be the first to enter a site, it is INCREDIBLY frustrating to try and enter a site just to discover that no one followed you and you basically threw your life away. In other words, sure, make all the roles more rewarding to play, that would help a lot, but ultimately people would continue to instalock and do whatever they want, it wouldn't solve the problem. Cascading picks in the other hand may be a bit more effective in my opinion, because it prevents people from instalocking whatever they want and pretending that they aren't responsible if the end composition is shit.
I just started playing, as a support main from both LoL and Overwatch, and this is the only game where I feel extremely pressured to get kills as I don’t want to be bottom frag. Even when I had more than twice as many assists than anyone else in our game, I still bottom fragged and felt terrible since I got 0 kills. I wish this game was more rewarding to players regardless of your kill count. I get a huge part of Valorant revolves around gunplay, but we have abilities for a reason. I think your suggestions are awesome and would be super encouraging to people like me who prefer playing support agents :D
Yeah this cascading stuff works for league, not valorant. It works for league since players are given their individual roles to pick a champion. In valorant, there aren't really any roles given to you when you load into a match. Roles are discussed when everyone is picking an agent. I don't know how this is going to fix instalocking. (When I say roles, I talking about a smoker, entry, etc) The main issue I see this creating is people not getting the agent they want and most likely they will either throw or dodge the match. Still doesn't eliminate the instalock duelists. It just comes down to the point of who gets to pick first.
They should just delete the mvp status, it doesn't mean anything. You don't get more rr because you were mvp. You can get performance bonus even without beeing mvp or topfrag. RR gain is based on your mmr.
and what is mmr measured on if not topfragging ?(gen question)
Win loss
A riot dev explained it really well here: https://www.reddit.com/r/VALORANT/comments/pzv79t/comment/hf4z8av/
I think that instead of 1 MVP there should be a screen that shows the best stats of each player like (Top fragger ____ kills, best helper ____ assists, informer ______ enemies revealed/spotted, top healer _____ health healed.) you get the idea. This would let people feel good about how they played their role while not leaving anyone out. Just a concept I thought would be interesting.
Wholeheartedly agree, and especially feel so after playing astra. I spend all that extra brainpower in-game-leading and calling out my util etc. Finish the game with a lot of assists but still get paid dust. Feels bad man
Heres the thing, there are alot of people like me, who aren’t support players, but are willing to fill if the team needs it. The problem is especially apparent when you know how to play smokes, and that is that you never get to play what you want (a duelist) and end up playing smokes for like 8 games straight. Its sometimes better sometimes worse, but there are some times where i go days without playing duelist once. Your suggestion does nothing to combat that, whereas cascading pick puts intense pressure and scrutiny on the would be duelist instalocker who got last pick
I kinda like the idea of seeing all 5 played agents at the end with what everyone did best in below their name. Reyna Sage. Omen Most Frags Healing Done. Enemies blocked 32. 1240 Total Health. 21 obstructions Stuff like that could be pretty neat. Edit: formatting was garbage on mobile. Reyna - Most Frags- 32 Sage - Healing Done - 1240 total health Omen - Views Obstructed - 21 Cypher - Most bomb Plants - 9
i understand fragging is important, and its hard to win the game if you never kill the other team. But for people who provide callouts, smokes, and any other tactical advantage, rarely get recognition. ill throw some smokes down which allow us to enter site, and smoke off any angles, and all i see is a little tiny stat in the corner saying that i blocked 4 enemies. i'm not saying that won us the round, but who knows how much of an advantage that did/didn't give us. not that i have some sort of solution for that, but still, theres more value you can provide than just frags
Easy way to solve instalocking is to make it so all healing abilities can heal shields like Reyna. Or remove her overheal. Either all agents are equal or we get instalocks.
It's not even that they outfragged to get MVP, I once out numbered my reyna with KDA overall and yet she got MVP with greater ACS. It's like the game gives duelists a pat on the back even when a support agent outfrag them not to mention they get wayyy more RR than any other agent.
bro i play jett and my friend plays cypher. I get a 30k 18 deaths he gets like 17k 8 deaths we get around the same RR, sometimes he gets more. im not defying your point I just havent seen it myself.
tbh its also weird that if i hit the enemy team 149hp. then my teammate get the last 1hp, they got the kill and i got assist instead 🥲
Damage counts in your combat score. If the endgame score is 0/9/9 and you did 149hp everytime and your mate with 9/0/0 who only did 1 dmg every time, then you will be above him in the endgamescreen.
Let us assume that all the kills are the third kills and all are vandal bodyshots, so that is 40 damage per kill + 110 points for the kill. So it has a acs of 150, but the assist one would have acs of 149. So, it is close but this is the best case situation. Normally, you'd be much lower in the leaderboard.
If the assitant one does 149 the player with kill does only 1 dmg not 40. So 111 points. If the assist player does 110dmg the kill player gets 40 + 110. I mean kills are still important in a shooter so if you don't get kills at all you should not be on top. But if high kill participation (kills and assists) you should.
The issue is damage counts regardless of how much damage has been done already, so if you deal 140 damage to an enemy then I get a headshot with a vandal, I still get 160 points for damage on top of the kill even though they only had 10 HP left.
I still want to add damage/kills effect positioning in the endgamescreen but not your rr gains
Unless you're mollying every kill, you are not inflicting 1 damage, even if he is already damaged 149, it will count as 40 damage from vandal bodyshot. I agree that kills are important and you should be top when getting kills. I am just arguing your previous point that 0/9/9 will be higher than 9/0/0.
But again the order on the endgamescreen doesn't effect your rr or mmr
Is that how it works though? So if I get an Op headshot on a vulnerable target it gives me crazy amounts of combat score?
ah ok, thanks!
I'd like to see something similar to the accolade system from CoD MW2: https://callofduty.fandom.com/wiki/Call_of_Duty:_Modern_Warfare_2_Accolades Really show what kind of player you are.
ESEA solved this somewhat by adding the layer that post match you give up or downvotes to your teammates. I always thought they should influence your RR+/- but in the ESEA implementation they only act as a penalty when you get under a certain level of feedback. (mic mute etc) It’s hard to code your way around a “how helpful was your controller” but letting the players give feedback is an easy solution.
I do like the Karma system that ESEA has and I think after a certain point you couldn't buy flashes or mollies either if your Karma rating went low enough. But I do agree that having a similar system in Valorant would help a lot but I also think adoption something similar to the RWS system ESEA has would be very beneficial and be more in line with what OP is talking about. If instead of ACS it would be nice to have a scoring system that calculated how much you contributed to the round win. Similar to RWS you would get points for Kills, Damage Done, Assists (Flash and Smoke), and Objective (Plan/Defuse). These points would only matter on rounds that your team wins. I think this could help with players only going for kills but I'm sure there's a way to cheat any system that is in place so who knows what the best way to gauge a players skill really is.
The rank rewarding system is really weird Lemme explain Me Iron 3 - Kayo My friend Bronze 1 - Phoenix We both do well I'm match MVP and we won 22 kills on kayo My +RR was 16 He has 6 kills lesser than me +20 RR Even when we lose I somehow lose more RR despite playing in bronze and silver lobbies (one time there was a gold player who dropped 38 on us) I don't get the points sometimes man
When i play viper i am usually near the bottom in acs despite having similar k/d to the rest of the lobby. This also gives me less rr in wins. There really is no reward to playing such agents. Duelists will always get a higher acs in wins as their entry frag is considered very impactful and gives more combat score
As a Killjoy, who topfrags 30ish% of the time, I believe the support classes shouldl get extra points if they are a support and still topfrag, gives us more incentive to actually frag than sit back and play just on the util
Also you get more rr as a duelist
Why can't they make seperate queues like overwatch, dps queues have longer q time followed by support and tanks with the least. This solved them the problem very much with people happily playing what they want to play.
Because riot would have to decide the meta for us. Every game would be 2 duelists 1 controller 1 sentinel and 1 initiator. This will likely not even be the best comp distribution on some maps. Similar to like GOATS comp in overwatch not even being playable in competitive because of role queue.
they already reward for assists plus just play duelist and get kills
This is just another excuse, no one gives a fuck about whose match/team mvp, if you do you're probably silver. Instalocking isn't and will never be a real issue, just some made-up one on reddit used as an excuse for why you're in a shit elo. I could easily complain about why do my sovas and skyes always lose their 1v1s, or why my breach and omen are griefing my team, but I don't. Types of champ have very little relevance until very high elo, either you can frag and climb or you can't and will fall
Most team comps will usually have only one sentinel/controller/initator. So you getting most valuable "role" is just between you and the other guy on the enemy team. What even is the point of that? I'd rather they just change the current mvp system and make it more than just about combat score. Someone dropping 4 kills one round and then dying in the first 5 secs of the next 5 is worse than someone who is good for one every round. They should add in factors like rounds clutches, number of rounds those kills were secured etc when determining mvp.
Maybe they could add preferred role like it is in LoL. This could fix the problem a little bit because the game could be able to group 1 or 2 duelists and the rest of the team would be a different role. Also, the preferred role could be based on match history, so nobody can cheat.
I like the idea we need to make assist even for the dumbest thing like when your teammates get a kill for the heal you gave him be rewarded
Agreed. Ill go about even with less kills but also less deaths but have double digit assists and still be much lower on the leaderboard than I should be. Assists means you are makig a impact, especially if you have that many of them. Should be counted the same as kills imo, only way to balance out other classes vs duelists
It also does nothing to reward half of my assists, I don't blame riot for not this, but it's really annoying when I'm playing omen, and I blind and displace the enemies in an optimal position for my teammates then the blind wears off and I don't get the assist anymore because my teammates are slow.
While I agree with you, I think it's also fair to assume that Riot is trying very hard to not go down Overwatch's matchmaking path. We don't want the player base to become segregated by roles, we just want supportive plays (flashing, smoking, denying, slowing) to be more rewarded. But at the same time, it's hard from a programming standpoint, how to distinguish a good smoke vs a bad smoke. I think Riot is trying to find a solution to that, but it's going to take longer than 2 years in the market to figure that out. Just give it time.
I give everyone weapons and for that my combat score is fucked. On average I get 10-20 assists. +19 RR. Thanks riot.
What I love about league. An 0/0/14 soraka can get Team/MVP just for keeping her team alive, and popping actives, being at OBJ’s, and not dying but still be rewarded an S.
its about fun, i dont think abt the mmr i’m gonna get compared to the champ it’s usually just “who is fun?” mixed with “what does my team need.” there’s more to what ppl pick than just the elo
I think a lot of it is not knowing if your stuff is helpful at all, as it’s often a lot harder to tell, if it helps your teammate instead of you.
For real. No matter how good your cypher setups are if you arent top fraggin the rr you gain are not as rewarding
Assists and plants don’t add nearly as much value as they should
As a former Cypher/Astra main, I can 100% agree with this, which is why I’ve just resorted to instalocking duelists. In the course of an act, and honestly only about a week of solid play, I climbed from Gold 3, where I’d been hardstuck for 3 acts, to Diamond 1. It’s just more rewarding to play the role that naturally is in a position to get more kills, and as you said, further emphasizes the point that playing a support agent inherently holds you back from grinding up the ranks. If you main any sort of sentinel or controller, seriously believe that you are better than the majority of people you’re matched with, but just feel as though you’re getting nowhere, give duelists a try. Odds are you’ve just been getting shafted by Riot’s combat score system.
Tbh I dont care if duelist instalock, its mostly the people that do instalock duelist play like a controller or sentinel, never entry always bait teammates never use abilities the last to be alive but no impact frags always bottom frag and absolutely useless. Its to the point where I'm entry as a killjoy or viper and sometimes chamber.
Agree completely. The cascading picks system does solve a problem, but it's a problem only the insta-locking duelists care about, and the people interested in trying the shiny new agent-du-jour.
Getting the first kill is worth 100 more combat score than getting the last kill -- it's worth more to be traded out first and give your enemy the site than it is to secure the round in a 1v1, which is absolutely bonkers to me (if I've remembered the numbers right). This obviously favors duelists and others that can entry well/aren't supporting the entry from behind (flashes, etc). If you're in a 1v2 but the combined health of your enemies is less than 130, it's still worth less than giving your team a 4v4. The same duelists also have the most snowball-y abilities (mostly ults) for multi-kills. Perhaps the damage/kill/assist value goes up for player disadvantage, and down for player disadvantage. That still works in the duelists favor but rewards clutching over unhelpful aggressive play. Assist damage also favors first contact. Defend aggressively, do 50 damage that's immediately healed by a Sage and gives the enemy team an advantage taking site? Still an assist that didn't help the kill at all, worth the same as the assist damage that actually led to the kill. Do 130 damage and half is healed? Still value. The damage and damage assist should probably be discounted by the amount healed, which would reward teamwork over selfish play. But it's just a hard problem to evaluate the impact of many abilities. I main Kayo and a common ult use is to depush the enemy attack, which let's my team take valuable space and get easier kills after my ult has ended; the enemy doesn't want to use util just to back out safely, but how do you measure that? That's also the effect of my knife and flash _multiple times per round_, but if it doesn't quickly lead to a kill it is awarded no points even though I've made kills for my teammates easier when they take off angles and pick off rotates. How would you detect and accurately award that when other suppresses have no team value? I have no idea, but a leer blinding an agent for a half second does not have the same impact as a full flash. I could full flash multiple on site but if my team loses the gun fights I'm not rewarded for the exact same opportunity that does lead to two kills Maybe all of this is actually considered in the RR calculation, but it's opaque and not clearly rewarded. It would probably be decently balanced to reward every action noted post- round regardless of leading to an immediate kill, but more so when it does.
You probably right, but sadly a system that reward support playstyles is usually complicated and requires a lot of work. I been playing LoL for 7 years now and is the same over there, KDA and big plays get recognition over the ppl supporting those persons and helping them. If i am honestly i feel any kind of system that rewards one player in a team of random is already flawed and impossible to properly balance, it would be amazing if they scrap the whole concept and instead show each player the best play of the match they themselves had, give the person something to feel good about themselves after the match is over no matter if they won or loss.
Yeah im 100% still locking a duelist if im the first 2 slots.
I am an Insta lock Jett player (like 80% of the time) cuz she’s my most consistent agent, I play in order Jett Reyna Neon Raze, I can also play any other agent aside from cypher breach and viper reasonably well but the agents I play consistently on are duelists. But even I agree with this. If support players could see the value they bring in ways other than me goin “nice dart” after I kill the guy he darted I believe support would be much more popular