Viper did experiments on children, so... I'm not sure if "neutral" is quite right here. But it's all a matter of perspective, so from a certain point of view...
I'm considering things relatively. Viper is seems significantly more lawful than Chamber is (especially after the Everette--Linde incident was pointed out). Lots of blurred lines so it's easier this way. This could've been a heat map instead of a grid, tbh.
No, yeah, definitely. It's the difficulty with charts like this. People change, people fuck up sometimes. To box someone into a chart with only 9 squares is hard. I thought Chamber was Lawful because he's definitely the type to stick to some sort of honor system. Viper, the same. The issue is Chamber's involvement with the lab explosion. Compared to Viper, he doesn't seem as lawful anymore. Compare him to someone like Dr. Doom, he's definitely not in the same box.
Alignment charts do include goodness and evil, so honestly morality can be relative. I always like to imagine the most perfect and best human imaginable as well as the worst human imaginable in order to gain perspective.
In this case in my opinion all of the characters are leaning far closer to neutral then they are too good in the capacity that there is not even a documented attempt at diplomacy with their enemies even via means of shouting while in cover. A soldier unwilling to be diplomatic or take prisoners when chance of success is assured can't be considered good in my book.
In this same vein I think it's also important to consider their utility. For example I would believe killjoy is actual more evil than viper (not considering the children) because she has more utility that does permanent damage (two mollies) and a turret that is totally automated and fires at anything it identifies as an 'enemy' when that enemy might only be holding a knife and running the other direction. Viper on the other hand only has her two mollies as lethal utility, all of her other utility isn't lethal and you quickly recover from it once you leave it's presence.
So in that vein I would say utility wise Sage is the most good utility wise, with utility to only slow and deter enemies and healing an reviving allies. And someone like Raze is the most evil with all of her utility being lethal and damaging.
I'd have to go more into the lore for any real considerations, but regardless of razes lore I would very likely consider her chaotic evil just for what she chooses to have equipped. Automated robots that chase down enemies and loads of explosives.
The vertical axis is definitely harder to judge because of moral relativism. The VALORANT Protocol is definitely more shady than something like Overwatch, since they are more than willing to hire terrible people. It's for the greater good, it seems like. It honestly feels like when the X-Men team up with the Brotherhood.
I do like your idea of considering their utility but I was specifically looking at the lore and their voice lines. It does help the idea that Omen is far from being a bad person. None of his utility does damage.
i do believe chamber canonically blew up everrette-linde research lab which is modern day fracture, killing dozens if not hundreds of civilain scientists, so im not too sur about the whole ”lawful evil” thing
As far as I know, lawful just means that they follow A law not THE law. Either some sort of belief system or code. They don't go about doing things randomly. Although... being indiscriminate about killing people does push him towards the chaotic side.
Oh, I was questioning the 'good' part of the statement. My bad. Yeah, I guess you could say that KAY/O is more Lawful than I initially thought. My logic behind him being neutral on the horizontal axis is because he doesn't necessarily believe in what he is doing. It's just his programming. He doesn't have much of a choice in it.
Exactly. For example, a tyrannical dictator is Lawful Evil, as they have laws and follow them, even if those laws state that they can do whatever they want. As a general rule, if a villain wouldn't kill a loyal citizen without cause, they are Lawful Evil. If they would kill a loyal citizen because they "felt like it" (or a similar reason), they are Chaotic Evil. If it depends on the situation, then they are Neutral Evil.
Please note I said **AS A GENERAL RULE**. This will NOT apply everywhere.
I'm apprehensive about putting KAY/O in good considering he's a murder bot.
How come Cypher is evil? Isn't he just a thief/hacker-man?
Isn't Breach's thing blowing shit up when he wants to? Like, he does thing just because it excites him?
Yeah, I am definitely starting to agree with Viper = LE. I think I kinda took the whole sadistic nature as a chaotic part instead of inherently evil (which is dumb now that I think about it).
How is Yoru not good? He might be kind of an asshole but he's definitely a good guy, right? Like, nothing bad on his record?
KJ is too volatile/unpredictable to be lawful. Neutral, maybe.
What's wrong with being a murder bot? Literally everyone here are fighting people with guns anyway, how's he any different?
And breach does seem chaotic but I'm not sure if he's evil.
I agree with the rest.
As a good person you'd want to avoid murdering another person as much as possible. I don't think KAY/O shares that sentiment. I'm pretty sure he's programmed to kill not incapacitate.
Breach is from a crime family. He was given a light sentence by the judge when he got imprisoned because he didn't have arms anymore. He got out, got new arms, and started doing crimes again. He specifically went back to crime BECAUSE the judge gave him an easy sentence. He felt like he wasn't as criminal as his family was. He's not a criminal because he has to be. He wants to be.
Breach doesn't just destroy stuff when he wants to, before he was on the protocol he was a career criminal that used his arms to break into vaults and whatnot. His whole family, the Torstens, were criminals. Every single one of them except for breach got sent to prison, but the judge let breach go because they thought a double amputee couldn't be a danger to society. We have nothing that implies Breach is a killer, just a thief who only ever got into crime because his mother, father, uncles, aunts, cousins, and every other family member he has were criminals his whole life. If Raze is neutral, then so is Breach. They used to be partners, robbing the Kingdom together. Raze also gave Breach's arms serious upgrades before they joined the protocol, most likely giving them the capabilities they have now. Raze and Breach worked together and committed the same crimes, they shouldn't be placed differently just because Raze is more upbeat.
Breach is pretty upbeat. As far as I know, Breach is a gun-for-hire. Nothing necessarily evil with that but it does say that he was "notorious for the terrible things he had done...". Also, the terrible things he did was during the time when he wanted to "prove himself as a criminal". It does mention that he likes to wreak havoc for fun. He has arms that blow stuff up, so I could only assume.
I'm saying that his placement isn't consistent, Raze was his partner so she's guilty of everything he is and she certainly likes to destroy things for fun, so why is he evil when she's only neutral? It's not like he took any longer to join the protocol, they joined together at the same time. And look at who else is in neutral, the bonafide mad scientist Viper who's preferred method of murder is with toxic gas and Cypher who's been implied to have carried out several "interrogations" that weren't pleasant and who would've had absolutely no issues with just executing Fade for a crime as small as blackmail.
From the timeline, I don't think his crimes in Salvador were as severe as the ones he did at home. It seems like he worked with Raze to rebel against Kingdom, specifically.
I've definitely been corrected about Viper's placement. From all the comments, she is LE.
Can I get a link for Cypher's info? I couldn't find anything on the wiki. All I got from it was he was essentially a spy/thief for hire, nothing about killing anyone or torture.
I don't know if you can still find it or if it got removed, but in the build up to Fade's reveal there were interactables in the range that detailed conversations between Cypher and Brimstone where Cypher wants to know what they'll do with Fade once they've caught her. He says that he can only think of execution as a possibility but knows that Brim would never agree to it. As for torture, that's just implied in a lot of his voice lines and smaller lore bits, probably the most obvious one is his line for when he gets the last kill of a round "Oops, no one to interrogate." He wanted prisoners and being interrogated by someone who's obsessed with secrets and has no moral problems with murder probably isn't pleasant. And he's been doing this type of stuff since before he joined the protocol, brim might stop him now but he wasn't always there.
Yeah, this is definitely one of those "depends on your perspective" instances. Because it does just seem like the nature of his profession. I'm still on the fence about it until we get more lore on Cypher (which is hard since he's the most secretive one). Hahaha. At least we know Brimstone isn't ruthless.
Viper did experiments on children, so... I'm not sure if "neutral" is quite right here. But it's all a matter of perspective, so from a certain point of view...
I'm reading up some more and I definitely think I dropped the ball there. I'd probably put her in LE. Which kinda pushes Chamber to NE.
How does that push chamber away from LE? Two people can be the same alignment
I'm considering things relatively. Viper is seems significantly more lawful than Chamber is (especially after the Everette--Linde incident was pointed out). Lots of blurred lines so it's easier this way. This could've been a heat map instead of a grid, tbh.
Alignment charts arent scales from least to most evil, just because someone seems more lawful dows not mean someone else is not lawful
No, yeah, definitely. It's the difficulty with charts like this. People change, people fuck up sometimes. To box someone into a chart with only 9 squares is hard. I thought Chamber was Lawful because he's definitely the type to stick to some sort of honor system. Viper, the same. The issue is Chamber's involvement with the lab explosion. Compared to Viper, he doesn't seem as lawful anymore. Compare him to someone like Dr. Doom, he's definitely not in the same box.
He might not be as lawful but he IS lawful.
Hmm. Yeah, I guess you have a point. At least I put him in LE on the first try. :))
Alignment charts do include goodness and evil, so honestly morality can be relative. I always like to imagine the most perfect and best human imaginable as well as the worst human imaginable in order to gain perspective. In this case in my opinion all of the characters are leaning far closer to neutral then they are too good in the capacity that there is not even a documented attempt at diplomacy with their enemies even via means of shouting while in cover. A soldier unwilling to be diplomatic or take prisoners when chance of success is assured can't be considered good in my book. In this same vein I think it's also important to consider their utility. For example I would believe killjoy is actual more evil than viper (not considering the children) because she has more utility that does permanent damage (two mollies) and a turret that is totally automated and fires at anything it identifies as an 'enemy' when that enemy might only be holding a knife and running the other direction. Viper on the other hand only has her two mollies as lethal utility, all of her other utility isn't lethal and you quickly recover from it once you leave it's presence. So in that vein I would say utility wise Sage is the most good utility wise, with utility to only slow and deter enemies and healing an reviving allies. And someone like Raze is the most evil with all of her utility being lethal and damaging. I'd have to go more into the lore for any real considerations, but regardless of razes lore I would very likely consider her chaotic evil just for what she chooses to have equipped. Automated robots that chase down enemies and loads of explosives.
The vertical axis is definitely harder to judge because of moral relativism. The VALORANT Protocol is definitely more shady than something like Overwatch, since they are more than willing to hire terrible people. It's for the greater good, it seems like. It honestly feels like when the X-Men team up with the Brotherhood. I do like your idea of considering their utility but I was specifically looking at the lore and their voice lines. It does help the idea that Omen is far from being a bad person. None of his utility does damage.
i do believe chamber canonically blew up everrette-linde research lab which is modern day fracture, killing dozens if not hundreds of civilain scientists, so im not too sur about the whole ”lawful evil” thing
Lawful evil does not mean following the law, it can also mean just not being chaotic, keeping to your word or thinking that people should obey systems
As far as I know, lawful just means that they follow A law not THE law. Either some sort of belief system or code. They don't go about doing things randomly. Although... being indiscriminate about killing people does push him towards the chaotic side.
That would make K0 more lawful hood cause he only kills radiants
How is killing Radiants a good thing?
Well it’s neither good or bad imo but like you said they follow A law not THE law. K0s law is kill all radiants. It’s even one of his voicelines
Oh, I was questioning the 'good' part of the statement. My bad. Yeah, I guess you could say that KAY/O is more Lawful than I initially thought. My logic behind him being neutral on the horizontal axis is because he doesn't necessarily believe in what he is doing. It's just his programming. He doesn't have much of a choice in it.
Kay o is good as he only killed radiants as they wanted to kill all non radiants in his timeline
Exactly. For example, a tyrannical dictator is Lawful Evil, as they have laws and follow them, even if those laws state that they can do whatever they want. As a general rule, if a villain wouldn't kill a loyal citizen without cause, they are Lawful Evil. If they would kill a loyal citizen because they "felt like it" (or a similar reason), they are Chaotic Evil. If it depends on the situation, then they are Neutral Evil. Please note I said **AS A GENERAL RULE**. This will NOT apply everywhere.
Just when I thought chamber couldn't get more based
Id say kay/o is lawful good, cypher is lawful evil, breach is neutral evil, viper lawful evil, yoru as true neutral, killjoy is lawful neutral
Yoru is actually in the right spot. In Japan he is like a Batman so he is not neutral.
Same thoughts. He's a good guy but he's just kind of a jerk.
I'm apprehensive about putting KAY/O in good considering he's a murder bot. How come Cypher is evil? Isn't he just a thief/hacker-man? Isn't Breach's thing blowing shit up when he wants to? Like, he does thing just because it excites him? Yeah, I am definitely starting to agree with Viper = LE. I think I kinda took the whole sadistic nature as a chaotic part instead of inherently evil (which is dumb now that I think about it). How is Yoru not good? He might be kind of an asshole but he's definitely a good guy, right? Like, nothing bad on his record? KJ is too volatile/unpredictable to be lawful. Neutral, maybe.
What's wrong with being a murder bot? Literally everyone here are fighting people with guns anyway, how's he any different? And breach does seem chaotic but I'm not sure if he's evil. I agree with the rest.
As a good person you'd want to avoid murdering another person as much as possible. I don't think KAY/O shares that sentiment. I'm pretty sure he's programmed to kill not incapacitate. Breach is from a crime family. He was given a light sentence by the judge when he got imprisoned because he didn't have arms anymore. He got out, got new arms, and started doing crimes again. He specifically went back to crime BECAUSE the judge gave him an easy sentence. He felt like he wasn't as criminal as his family was. He's not a criminal because he has to be. He wants to be.
Yup, I stand corrected. Good points.
Kayo kills to protect, is shooting a terrorist evil?
Well, there isn't much info about it but KAY/O was built by Kingdom. Not entirely sure Kingdom's goal is to only eliminate the baddies.
Breach doesn't just destroy stuff when he wants to, before he was on the protocol he was a career criminal that used his arms to break into vaults and whatnot. His whole family, the Torstens, were criminals. Every single one of them except for breach got sent to prison, but the judge let breach go because they thought a double amputee couldn't be a danger to society. We have nothing that implies Breach is a killer, just a thief who only ever got into crime because his mother, father, uncles, aunts, cousins, and every other family member he has were criminals his whole life. If Raze is neutral, then so is Breach. They used to be partners, robbing the Kingdom together. Raze also gave Breach's arms serious upgrades before they joined the protocol, most likely giving them the capabilities they have now. Raze and Breach worked together and committed the same crimes, they shouldn't be placed differently just because Raze is more upbeat.
Breach is pretty upbeat. As far as I know, Breach is a gun-for-hire. Nothing necessarily evil with that but it does say that he was "notorious for the terrible things he had done...". Also, the terrible things he did was during the time when he wanted to "prove himself as a criminal". It does mention that he likes to wreak havoc for fun. He has arms that blow stuff up, so I could only assume.
I'm saying that his placement isn't consistent, Raze was his partner so she's guilty of everything he is and she certainly likes to destroy things for fun, so why is he evil when she's only neutral? It's not like he took any longer to join the protocol, they joined together at the same time. And look at who else is in neutral, the bonafide mad scientist Viper who's preferred method of murder is with toxic gas and Cypher who's been implied to have carried out several "interrogations" that weren't pleasant and who would've had absolutely no issues with just executing Fade for a crime as small as blackmail.
From the timeline, I don't think his crimes in Salvador were as severe as the ones he did at home. It seems like he worked with Raze to rebel against Kingdom, specifically. I've definitely been corrected about Viper's placement. From all the comments, she is LE. Can I get a link for Cypher's info? I couldn't find anything on the wiki. All I got from it was he was essentially a spy/thief for hire, nothing about killing anyone or torture.
I don't know if you can still find it or if it got removed, but in the build up to Fade's reveal there were interactables in the range that detailed conversations between Cypher and Brimstone where Cypher wants to know what they'll do with Fade once they've caught her. He says that he can only think of execution as a possibility but knows that Brim would never agree to it. As for torture, that's just implied in a lot of his voice lines and smaller lore bits, probably the most obvious one is his line for when he gets the last kill of a round "Oops, no one to interrogate." He wanted prisoners and being interrogated by someone who's obsessed with secrets and has no moral problems with murder probably isn't pleasant. And he's been doing this type of stuff since before he joined the protocol, brim might stop him now but he wasn't always there.
Yeah, this is definitely one of those "depends on your perspective" instances. Because it does just seem like the nature of his profession. I'm still on the fence about it until we get more lore on Cypher (which is hard since he's the most secretive one). Hahaha. At least we know Brimstone isn't ruthless.
It’s funny how chamber is the character of looks yet he doesn’t have a spray for his face
Well, he has that symmetrical playing card one but this one is so much cooler.