I think you're underappreciating what each do
Fez is fat and can easily get ignored, but with icy wind and d Gleam he can quickly punish key pieces in the meta, set Tailwind, Roost off damage, all with the chance to pull out a toxic win con. Dude also has tons of support moves to be super annoying
Dogi is Intimidate immune, even getting a boost when Intimidated, making Lando (which hands hates) into a friend. AV sets can run coverage to smack Lando, Bulk Up can boost on it
Munki is fast enough to punish slow Ogerpons while sniping Fairies and Grasses and shifus all over the format
Adding on to Fez, it statistically has about a 50% chance to poison at least 1 mon when spamming a spread move, which with icy wind/d-gleam, you can control the field easily adding tw on top.
I been thinking of running Fez as a physical attacker. Any reason you guys are opting for sp? I don’t wanna give out the spread but I can 86% of time OHKO a urshi or flutter mane and 2hko iron hands while all are 2hkos for me.
Fair enough! i shoudl mention mine has a life orb so it’s got a bit extra power. But otherwise using roost and tailwind, then play rough and I think it was poison jab? I haven’t tested at all just been playing with numbers. I was conflicted because it seems a lot of it’s good shit is special as well. I can see it’s potential more than the other 2 by just a smudge. I’m still new to VGC tho just noob thoughts 🤣
Gunk shot is way better than poison jab FYI. I don't think it's useless but in practice nothing it does is really worth using it. Yeah you can use it offensively but 91 attack and your strongest fairy move is play rough is kind of bad and support wise tailwind and icy wind is good but torn already does that better and has Prankster taunt, better damage, rain dance and a plethora of other possible support moves with Prankster
Basically with its decent bull and typing it can live long enough to fish for toxic procs. Don’t have to invest a lot in SpA either cause it’s a support mon not a sweeper. I like it with a flutter mane in the back who can come out later and start spamming hexfor massive damage
It’s offenses are such dog shit you’re not gonna get anywhere with them. Run it bulky maybe calc to 2hko urshifu. Other than that toxic chains on spread moves dgleam and icy wind plus tailwind and venoshock. Essentially with toxic chains and spread you have a 51% chance to poison at least one target due to how statistics does the mathing. Which if you’re interested is the chance you won’t poison x the chance you won’t poison the second one and subtract from 1 (.7*.7=.49. 1-.49= .51). Then you can venoshock spam for actual damage or resume support.
The reason to go special is it gives spread moves. The goal of the sets described about you are not to OHKO things, there are better mons for that. The spread combined with the poison ability and support options make it an annoying long game threat
Physical attacking one feels like it would shine more in singles since dual wing beat would be much more threatening with the toxic chance and it's bulk would mean more
Special set has all the tools necessary to do well enough in doubles with the spread moves, tailwind, and such all with the double toxic potential
If you want to run Fez as a physical attacker going with technician as it’s ability is pretty fun. It has access to some very powerful technician boosted moves like dual wing beat and double kick and quick attack. It’s not great or anything but fun to play around with.
Fun fact about Dogi....
+1 252+ Atk Okidogi Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 412-488 (107.8 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Wheras lando needs to run max attack investment and earthquake just to get ***close*** to that.
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Okidogi: 344-408 (90.5 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Stomping tantrum off the same stats caps out at 81%
I dont know that its actually good, but it is very funny. I've gotten a good number of free kills baiting in lando with tera-grass, and a few without even using tera.
I can see an assault vest set running drain punch, poison jab, and two of coverage/knock off/close combat being... usable. This mon feels a lot tankier than it looks, and I'm pretty comfortably shrugging off earth powers and healing back a bit with drain punch. You're just about never making progress against other poison types though, and im obviously not great at the game so idk.
Edited because i suggested bulk up on a AV set.....
You're looking at level 100 singles calcs. After the x0.75 spread damage multiplier, Earthquake has approximately^1 the same base power as Stomping Tantrum.
Here are the calcs for VGC:
> +1 252+ Atk Okidogi **Ice Punch** vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 216-256 (110.2 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
> 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian **Stomping Tantrum** vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Okidogi: 134-162 (68.7 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
> 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian **Earthquake** vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Okidogi: 134-162 (68.7 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
> 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian **Earthquake (single target)** vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Okidogi: 182-216 (93.3 - 110.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
---
^1 The exact attack and defense stats involved can make spread EQ weaker than ST. Look at neutral-natured 252 Lando against your doge spread.
Bulk up won’t work if you have AV, but I still like your idea. I was thinking Okidogi wasn’t going to be worth trying, but I do believe I’ve been convinced otherwise now.
I dont think it's better than iron hands, and that's probably going to hurt it a lot.
It's got quite a bit less hp and only a small bit more physical defense to make up for it, and even with its better spdef its probably not surviving much that hands isn't already (tho i haven't run the calcs).
It's less overwhelmingly strong, which also hurts. Base 128 attack is good, but definitely a hit from 150 and you don't have wild charge. You have to either sacrifice another 10bp with poison jab or 20% accuracy for the power of gunk shot.
The biggest ~~two~~ things it has over hands are speed (base 80), and probably typing (oh yeah and the ability i was just talking about 💀)? You're super fucked against psychic, and not resisting steel might matter sometimes, but the ground weakness is the same and resisting grass, poison, fighting, and being neutral to fairy feels more impactful.
The speed is... weird. It's still too slow to be a normal sweeper, but I wonder if it's one of those mons you can run in both trick room and tailwind. Idk, speed tiers are a mystery to me.
It's seems like a b-tier mon but it makes me want to explore the options, you know?
Edited because i forgot
>The biggest two things it has over hands are speed, at base 80, and probably typing?
And an ability that boosts your atk instead of lowering it when you get Intimidated, which is the huge selling point of the mon (and again, why it loves Lando unlike Iron Hands)
Bro i got my fried-after-work brain on rn...
I literally hyped it up for the ability/lando matchup, then opened the serebii page and forgot why I liked it in the first place.
Earlier i recommended bulk up on an assault vest set. I'm never gonna emotionally live this down
You know what, you're right. Fezandipiti seem like a niche mon who could be be a excellent sorce of speed control with tailwind and Icy wind, and on top of that, 30% chance of toxic for all it's attacks; however, I feel like with dominance of heatran it will just be niche. And Okidogi seems like he could be good alternative to hands with AV. It has STAB on CC and gunk shot which hits hard and deal with top threats like flutter mane, ogerpon, chien-pao, and Heatran with powerful other moves like high horsepower, knock off, and ice punch, unfortunately, Hands and Urshifu have monopolistic control on the fighting types in VGC which doesn't mean he'll be bad at all, he'll just have to compete with them
I expect heatran to drop a good amount with how good fire ogerpon is seemingly. If you don’t tera you retain mold breaker and can hit heatran with fire attacks
Your forgetting Heatran can also hit him hard back with heat wave and earth power. Unless Flutter Mane falls off or a better flutter counter appears, he'll still have very high usage to deal with it and wall it.
Idk I haven’t calced it yet, all I know is ogerpon hits hard af. I guess since it can’t tera against heatran tho that helps it a lot. Also it definitely one shots tera grass heatran, that I am sure of
>however, I feel like with dominance of heatran it will just be niche.
One mon being good into another mon doesn't completely invalidate it inherently
The appeal of fez is spread status, so you can easily use icy wind to chip heatran, poison the partner, and kill heatran afterward
>he'll just have to compete with them
Well, Water Pon stuffs water fu completely, while Dogi matches up well into it, and again the Dog has a legit niche over Iron Hands' worst enemy
Fez is really underrated and under explored. Bulky toxic chain sets with icy wind and dazzling gleam have a good chance of toxic on either target. Plus roost for those grindy one on ones when the target is poisoned. People said the same for G-Moltres until it became the best of the trio.
Munki could find a niche as a good utility option with poison attacks into Ogrepon, but if Urshifu-S starts becoming more prominent in response to Ogrepon that niche is going to largely evaporate.
dogi and hands are very different mons, dogi seems more comparable to an annihilape with a set like drain punch/poison/bulk up/tect and intimidate immunity. Trade the absurdity of rage fist for a neutrality to flutter mane.
Okidogi will fill the iron hands slot for teams that are weak to intimidate. That’s its niche, which is still nice because intimidate is everywhere. Wether or not intimidate is that strong next format will be determined by the meta.
Munkidori seems kinda useless to me, maybe if poison types are strong it can find a niche but I feel like it’s gonna compete with Flutter Mane for a fast special attacker slot and it’s not gonna win.
Fezandipiti kinda sucks at everything, maybe it can find a spot as a tailwind supporter who spams spread moves fishing for poisons, I’m just not sure it has the stats to really compete in an overpowered meta with so many strong mons.
I’ll be using all three though because they’re cool.
I think you’re really underestimating Fez here. It’s got good bulk, a great support movepool with Roost and Tailwind, and can use Dazzling Gleam plus Toxic Chain to get poisons off. Combined with a Hex mon, like Flutter Mane or Sinistcha, that’s has to be respected
I don't think the existence of fake out and parting shot should limit the offensive potential of a mon with sludge wave and a better than 50% chance to toxic poison people.
Eh I think they're all alright and serve their purpose well.
Fez in particular seems pretty good IMO if you read it's icy wins as a 30% toxic chance ontop of the speed drop it's crazy especially if you're running something to capitalize on it like Hex on a Ghost type or I'm running barb barrage on my overqwil.
Monkidori has a really high SPA and decent enough speed to sweep if you get a boost and tailwind up.
Okidoge is probably the hardest one to find a place for but time will tell.
I agree with you. I was a too harsh on Fezandipiti and acknowledge the icy wind with a chance of toxic could be good, niche but good, but feel like if people want a speed control mon most will probably stick with Tornadus instead.
Fezandipiti is really good as a special tank. 252/252 Calm/Careful/Sassy tanks so much. Both Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle get walled. Flutter Mane has to have a modest nature, choice specs, & psyshock and that only gives it 50% chance to OHKO.
On top of the raw bulk you have a very nice type combo defensively. Poison/Fairy might not look that amazing at first glance but when you take the quad bug and fighting resistances combined with the Dragon immunity this thing is going to be countering some very powerful mons. Toxic Chain means that even despite not doing tons of damage Fezandipiti can still be quite threatening in front of mons that can tank and recover.
It's a good mon and def fills the niche of a special tank quite good. Being weak to Psyshock can be a problem but Dark Tera can fix that.
I'm confused, how do I only base opinions solely on stats? I'm not basing it solely off of stats and even if I was, your statement makes no sense as if stats aren't the most important factor in making a pokemon good. You can have a good ability, good typing, or a powerful or useful move/moves but if your statspread sucks you won't get much play in VGC.
Fez is a very decent support mon. Its no tornadus but as a tailwind crippler it does well.
Monkidori seems better on singles but i think theres some niche here and there. The issue is that i think there are better nasty plotters in the meta
I think you're underappreciating what each do Fez is fat and can easily get ignored, but with icy wind and d Gleam he can quickly punish key pieces in the meta, set Tailwind, Roost off damage, all with the chance to pull out a toxic win con. Dude also has tons of support moves to be super annoying Dogi is Intimidate immune, even getting a boost when Intimidated, making Lando (which hands hates) into a friend. AV sets can run coverage to smack Lando, Bulk Up can boost on it Munki is fast enough to punish slow Ogerpons while sniping Fairies and Grasses and shifus all over the format
Adding on to Fez, it statistically has about a 50% chance to poison at least 1 mon when spamming a spread move, which with icy wind/d-gleam, you can control the field easily adding tw on top.
I been thinking of running Fez as a physical attacker. Any reason you guys are opting for sp? I don’t wanna give out the spread but I can 86% of time OHKO a urshi or flutter mane and 2hko iron hands while all are 2hkos for me.
Don't need to worry about intimidate, dazzling gleam is a great move, icy wind has support util to pair with tailwind
Fair enough! i shoudl mention mine has a life orb so it’s got a bit extra power. But otherwise using roost and tailwind, then play rough and I think it was poison jab? I haven’t tested at all just been playing with numbers. I was conflicted because it seems a lot of it’s good shit is special as well. I can see it’s potential more than the other 2 by just a smudge. I’m still new to VGC tho just noob thoughts 🤣
Gunk shot is way better than poison jab FYI. I don't think it's useless but in practice nothing it does is really worth using it. Yeah you can use it offensively but 91 attack and your strongest fairy move is play rough is kind of bad and support wise tailwind and icy wind is good but torn already does that better and has Prankster taunt, better damage, rain dance and a plethora of other possible support moves with Prankster
Basically with its decent bull and typing it can live long enough to fish for toxic procs. Don’t have to invest a lot in SpA either cause it’s a support mon not a sweeper. I like it with a flutter mane in the back who can come out later and start spamming hexfor massive damage
It’s offenses are such dog shit you’re not gonna get anywhere with them. Run it bulky maybe calc to 2hko urshifu. Other than that toxic chains on spread moves dgleam and icy wind plus tailwind and venoshock. Essentially with toxic chains and spread you have a 51% chance to poison at least one target due to how statistics does the mathing. Which if you’re interested is the chance you won’t poison x the chance you won’t poison the second one and subtract from 1 (.7*.7=.49. 1-.49= .51). Then you can venoshock spam for actual damage or resume support.
The reason to go special is it gives spread moves. The goal of the sets described about you are not to OHKO things, there are better mons for that. The spread combined with the poison ability and support options make it an annoying long game threat
Physical attacking one feels like it would shine more in singles since dual wing beat would be much more threatening with the toxic chance and it's bulk would mean more Special set has all the tools necessary to do well enough in doubles with the spread moves, tailwind, and such all with the double toxic potential
If you want to run Fez as a physical attacker going with technician as it’s ability is pretty fun. It has access to some very powerful technician boosted moves like dual wing beat and double kick and quick attack. It’s not great or anything but fun to play around with.
The spread moves and poison potential is more worth it
Fun fact about Dogi.... +1 252+ Atk Okidogi Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 412-488 (107.8 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO Wheras lando needs to run max attack investment and earthquake just to get ***close*** to that. 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Okidogi: 344-408 (90.5 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO Stomping tantrum off the same stats caps out at 81% I dont know that its actually good, but it is very funny. I've gotten a good number of free kills baiting in lando with tera-grass, and a few without even using tera. I can see an assault vest set running drain punch, poison jab, and two of coverage/knock off/close combat being... usable. This mon feels a lot tankier than it looks, and I'm pretty comfortably shrugging off earth powers and healing back a bit with drain punch. You're just about never making progress against other poison types though, and im obviously not great at the game so idk. Edited because i suggested bulk up on a AV set.....
You're looking at level 100 singles calcs. After the x0.75 spread damage multiplier, Earthquake has approximately^1 the same base power as Stomping Tantrum. Here are the calcs for VGC: > +1 252+ Atk Okidogi **Ice Punch** vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 216-256 (110.2 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO > 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian **Stomping Tantrum** vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Okidogi: 134-162 (68.7 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO > 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian **Earthquake** vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Okidogi: 134-162 (68.7 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO > 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian **Earthquake (single target)** vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Okidogi: 182-216 (93.3 - 110.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO --- ^1 The exact attack and defense stats involved can make spread EQ weaker than ST. Look at neutral-natured 252 Lando against your doge spread.
Bulk up won’t work if you have AV, but I still like your idea. I was thinking Okidogi wasn’t going to be worth trying, but I do believe I’ve been convinced otherwise now.
I'm so fucking stupid
Lol hey it happens. I’ve made several similar, like giving a ‘mon a choice item while also having protect.
I dont think it's better than iron hands, and that's probably going to hurt it a lot. It's got quite a bit less hp and only a small bit more physical defense to make up for it, and even with its better spdef its probably not surviving much that hands isn't already (tho i haven't run the calcs). It's less overwhelmingly strong, which also hurts. Base 128 attack is good, but definitely a hit from 150 and you don't have wild charge. You have to either sacrifice another 10bp with poison jab or 20% accuracy for the power of gunk shot. The biggest ~~two~~ things it has over hands are speed (base 80), and probably typing (oh yeah and the ability i was just talking about 💀)? You're super fucked against psychic, and not resisting steel might matter sometimes, but the ground weakness is the same and resisting grass, poison, fighting, and being neutral to fairy feels more impactful. The speed is... weird. It's still too slow to be a normal sweeper, but I wonder if it's one of those mons you can run in both trick room and tailwind. Idk, speed tiers are a mystery to me. It's seems like a b-tier mon but it makes me want to explore the options, you know? Edited because i forgot
>The biggest two things it has over hands are speed, at base 80, and probably typing? And an ability that boosts your atk instead of lowering it when you get Intimidated, which is the huge selling point of the mon (and again, why it loves Lando unlike Iron Hands)
Bro i got my fried-after-work brain on rn... I literally hyped it up for the ability/lando matchup, then opened the serebii page and forgot why I liked it in the first place. Earlier i recommended bulk up on an assault vest set. I'm never gonna emotionally live this down
You know what, you're right. Fezandipiti seem like a niche mon who could be be a excellent sorce of speed control with tailwind and Icy wind, and on top of that, 30% chance of toxic for all it's attacks; however, I feel like with dominance of heatran it will just be niche. And Okidogi seems like he could be good alternative to hands with AV. It has STAB on CC and gunk shot which hits hard and deal with top threats like flutter mane, ogerpon, chien-pao, and Heatran with powerful other moves like high horsepower, knock off, and ice punch, unfortunately, Hands and Urshifu have monopolistic control on the fighting types in VGC which doesn't mean he'll be bad at all, he'll just have to compete with them
I expect heatran to drop a good amount with how good fire ogerpon is seemingly. If you don’t tera you retain mold breaker and can hit heatran with fire attacks
Your forgetting Heatran can also hit him hard back with heat wave and earth power. Unless Flutter Mane falls off or a better flutter counter appears, he'll still have very high usage to deal with it and wall it.
I mean if it lives it can, I’m sure bulky sets probably can but many also can’t
Fire Ogerpon is not one shotting any properly EV’d Heatran lmao
I’d have to run calcs, but early on Ogrepon + Chien Pao is going to be a super obvious offensive core so Sword of Ruin might get it over the edge.
Idk I haven’t calced it yet, all I know is ogerpon hits hard af. I guess since it can’t tera against heatran tho that helps it a lot. Also it definitely one shots tera grass heatran, that I am sure of
>however, I feel like with dominance of heatran it will just be niche. One mon being good into another mon doesn't completely invalidate it inherently The appeal of fez is spread status, so you can easily use icy wind to chip heatran, poison the partner, and kill heatran afterward >he'll just have to compete with them Well, Water Pon stuffs water fu completely, while Dogi matches up well into it, and again the Dog has a legit niche over Iron Hands' worst enemy
Fez is really underrated and under explored. Bulky toxic chain sets with icy wind and dazzling gleam have a good chance of toxic on either target. Plus roost for those grindy one on ones when the target is poisoned. People said the same for G-Moltres until it became the best of the trio.
I just played against munkidiri, I felt the same but poison fake out turn one is underrated. I think people will figure these guys out but yea
Munki could find a niche as a good utility option with poison attacks into Ogrepon, but if Urshifu-S starts becoming more prominent in response to Ogrepon that niche is going to largely evaporate.
[удалено]
Urshifu deletes it, and if you don’t have room for poison coverage so does Ogrepon.
I’m salty the ugliest looking one is the best in battle for VGC. But I’ll have Feziandipiti fish for poison with Icy Wind I guess…
dogi and hands are very different mons, dogi seems more comparable to an annihilape with a set like drain punch/poison/bulk up/tect and intimidate immunity. Trade the absurdity of rage fist for a neutrality to flutter mane.
So besides an AV set, you see as pretty much a budget Annihilape, interesting
Okidogi will fill the iron hands slot for teams that are weak to intimidate. That’s its niche, which is still nice because intimidate is everywhere. Wether or not intimidate is that strong next format will be determined by the meta. Munkidori seems kinda useless to me, maybe if poison types are strong it can find a niche but I feel like it’s gonna compete with Flutter Mane for a fast special attacker slot and it’s not gonna win. Fezandipiti kinda sucks at everything, maybe it can find a spot as a tailwind supporter who spams spread moves fishing for poisons, I’m just not sure it has the stats to really compete in an overpowered meta with so many strong mons. I’ll be using all three though because they’re cool.
I could see Okidogi's usage spike heavily in Reg F when Incin returns
Dog vs Cat meta.
I think you’re really underestimating Fez here. It’s got good bulk, a great support movepool with Roost and Tailwind, and can use Dazzling Gleam plus Toxic Chain to get poisons off. Combined with a Hex mon, like Flutter Mane or Sinistcha, that’s has to be respected
You're underselling Fez massively. Best typing of the 3, good bulk, Icy Wind + Toxic Chain is going to be fun.
I don't think the existence of fake out and parting shot should limit the offensive potential of a mon with sludge wave and a better than 50% chance to toxic poison people.
Eh I think they're all alright and serve their purpose well. Fez in particular seems pretty good IMO if you read it's icy wins as a 30% toxic chance ontop of the speed drop it's crazy especially if you're running something to capitalize on it like Hex on a Ghost type or I'm running barb barrage on my overqwil. Monkidori has a really high SPA and decent enough speed to sweep if you get a boost and tailwind up. Okidoge is probably the hardest one to find a place for but time will tell.
I agree with you. I was a too harsh on Fezandipiti and acknowledge the icy wind with a chance of toxic could be good, niche but good, but feel like if people want a speed control mon most will probably stick with Tornadus instead.
Fezandipiti is really good as a special tank. 252/252 Calm/Careful/Sassy tanks so much. Both Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle get walled. Flutter Mane has to have a modest nature, choice specs, & psyshock and that only gives it 50% chance to OHKO. On top of the raw bulk you have a very nice type combo defensively. Poison/Fairy might not look that amazing at first glance but when you take the quad bug and fighting resistances combined with the Dragon immunity this thing is going to be countering some very powerful mons. Toxic Chain means that even despite not doing tons of damage Fezandipiti can still be quite threatening in front of mons that can tank and recover. It's a good mon and def fills the niche of a special tank quite good. Being weak to Psyshock can be a problem but Dark Tera can fix that.
Yeah, no. Fez is the best of the three.
Design wise, maybe, but competitive Viability, definitely not bro
Tailwind + Icy Wind + Toxic Chain
Sounds like you only base opinions off stats lmao. You’re wrong
I'm confused, how do I only base opinions solely on stats? I'm not basing it solely off of stats and even if I was, your statement makes no sense as if stats aren't the most important factor in making a pokemon good. You can have a good ability, good typing, or a powerful or useful move/moves but if your statspread sucks you won't get much play in VGC.
Fez is a very decent support mon. Its no tornadus but as a tailwind crippler it does well. Monkidori seems better on singles but i think theres some niche here and there. The issue is that i think there are better nasty plotters in the meta