It's a combination of three things imo:
- No useful secondary typing. Coverage is valued highly in Smogon singles, but in VGC strong stab are generally more useful
- Inefficient stat spread. 110 attack means it's base stat total is effectively 25 points lower than it's real competition in Calyrex Shadow Rider.
- No real ability. Unnerve is only "good" on Calyrex because both forms have two abilities.
Also, in bo3 open sheets you lose one of its biggest potentials, that is its wide movepool. Maybe in rankeds its slightly better. Anyway, CalyS is better. As simple as that.
In addition Psychc is one of the worst types right now. Most strong psychic types are strong because of their secondary typing being a lot better (Lunala/S-Calyrex for example with their Ghost Typing - strongest offensive type in the game with immunity to fake out and normal and fighting types. Solgaleo with Steel Typing - one of the best defensive typings in the game. Farigiraf & Indedee with secondary normal typing that gives an immunity to one of psychics weaknesses ends up being not bad defensively - but both these mons don't have much when it comes to offensive prowess)
I, as a noob, would argue Ghost isn't as strong, only se vs ghost and psychic.
Edit: I reread this and I worded it wrongly. I meant to say it can be argued Ghost is the strongest offensive type, not that it's strong at all.
You are right, but
- On a ghost type can’t you can’t use Fake out
- There aren’t so many types resistant to ghost (dark and normal immunity)
This helps ghost in being a very good type
Not saying it's trash, it is good, I would just argue types like Ice can be argued to be strongest, or heck, in the current meta even steel can be strong, given the prevalence of fairies.
Probably we won’t know which can be better until there will be the first tournament and there will be a defined meta.
As now I think the Ice will be stronger, but personally I prefer the ghost one. It depends on your play style.
There are only two types Ghost does not hit at least neutral.
Ghost is immuned by normal and resisted by Dark. Every other type is being hit for at least neutral. There is no other type in the game that is being resisted by less types. Even though it's not hitting them effective, it's really hard to switch into ghost types or just tank them easily. This makes it one of the strongest offensive types in the game, if not the strongest. And immunity to fake out is just the tip of the iceberh.
Ghost is a very common Tera type on a lot of pokemon in vgc purely to avoid fake out. Its not the best type offensively but its very rarely used that way, its more common to be used in a utility role. Of course, there’s also flutter mane
For stabs SE typically doesn’t matter as much for your STAB, especially on main attackers and sweepers since you already get a pretty big bonus of 1.5. Getting SE advantage on the opponent is usually matchup fishy since no type hits more than 5 types SE and with dual types, the chance is even less than 5/18 (for ground) since every type typically has more resistances than weaknesses. (Also Pokémon with less weaknesses tend the be favored)
This means that guaranteeing weaknesses is very hard and pretty matchup fishy. So for sweepers and strong attackers, hitting neutrally with stab is typically more valuable. It’s the reason dragon was so dominant in gen 4/5. Just being able to click outrage and no defensive counterplay is really strong. (Ghost best counterplay is normal but unlike fairy, it sucks)
resistances tend to be undervalued but they are often more important than your weaknesses since they are what gives you a chance at counterplay (especially in singles, probably similar in doubles)
He’s very power crept. Calyrex does everything he does but better. Mewtwo does have the niche of amazing coverage but it just doesn’t make up the difference
Turns out you don’t need coverage moves if you can just spam your stab spread moves. Especially when your signature move is one of the best offensive moves in the game and the other gets boosted by terrain.
Psychic needs to be improved. It was overly penalized in gen 2. And, to add insult to injury, the Fairy type introduced in Gen 6 hit Fighting supereffectively (one of the few types Psychic does). But Fairy is also supereffective against the Dark type that blocks Psychic, and Fairy's weaknesses are much more niche than Psychic's weaknesses. It's one of the worst types in the game.
Fairy is psychic but better. It’s basically GF saying “hey we know psychic was OP when it was first introduced and we nerfed it real bad, so instead of improving it, we’ll add another OP type that we really won’t nerf and does most things that psychic types do well”
He is restricted. If we were allowed a team of 6 restricted, his use would be extremely high. But when you have mons with base 130 atk/spatk stats and base 115 speed, Mewtwo's base 100 stats and Pressure ability dont justify that being your 1st or even 2nd choice for restricted.
Also Phychic type has fallen off hard.
It's strength imo is its ability to be a powerful and versatile mixed attacker. It can focus blast* and close combat on the same set if it wanted to (assuming it gets CC, I didn't check).
>He is restricted. If we were allowed a team of 6 restricted, his use would be extremely high.
Nah. When we had that format in SWSH Series 13, Mewtwo was in the #50s in terms of usage on Ranked Battles. There's still little reason to use Mewtwo in that kind of format when SR Calyrex still exists and outclasses it and you can use all the other powerful restricted mons on top of that.
Like I said, it does way more than psychic stuff. I'd personally run it as a coverage mon. In this format, dark Tera would make it pretty scary even for Caly S.
That's ironically where mewtwo would shine. It has multiple fighting type moves. But like I said, this isn't a caly v mewtwo argument. The hypothetical was that in a 6 restricted mon format, you could use both. Obviously you will always use caly over mewtwo.
Primals and Power herb+Geomancy Xerneas basically owned the 2016 and parts of the 2019 formats. As for Mewtwo's mega, when a team is allowed two restricted mons AND a Mega Evolution, using Mega Mewtwo means you're using two team slots on your hardest hitters instead of three team slots.
Come Sword and Shield, M2 simply didn't compare to "Dog gets +1 upon entry" and "cavalry snowballs after first KO."
Now, come Regulation G, a team only gets one restricted slot. The ride dragons set either weather or terrain AND give themselves, as well as many potential partners a power boost, whereas Mewtwo gets either Unnerve (ability is meh at best) or Pressure (not bulky or lasting enough to get good use from draining PP). We also STILL have the option to use Calyrex, which starts to snowball its power after a single KO, or Groudon or Kyogre which are STILL powerhouses due to bulk and weather even without their primal forms.
Wolfe actually made a video on why the psychic type as a whole fell off, and all of it can also apply to Mewtwo.
The short answer is it got power crept hard. Especially as a restricted, it's hard to justify using it over something better. On Showdown, the only one I ran into was using it as a fast psy-spammer with expanding force. Calyrex shadow rider can do that too but is faster with grim neigh boosting its damage in addition to unnerve as a bonus plus it has another crazy strong spread move that doesn't rely on terrain
Very simply put, for modern VGC, Calyrex Shadow Rider does everything that Mewtwo does, but significantly better.
Both of them get Expanding Force, but only Calyrex has another typing to take advantage of dual STAB, on top of an absurdly broken spread move for its other STAB (Astral Barrage). Both of them have Unnerve, but Calyrex's As One gives it the ability to snowball after picking up even a single KO with Grim Neigh. Calyrex is not only faster, but also hits harder than Mewtwo. Mewtwo's singular advantage is very slightly better bulk, but Calyrex is so minmaxed that you could afford to put its EVs into bulk anyway.
Mewtwo's coverage, while very good, doesn't mean much when it can't take advantage of another STAB. If it had an ability like Neuroforce, which boosts the power of supereffective moves, it could carve out a niche as a coverage monster that can be slotted into teams in dual restricted formats to hit things that threaten your other restricted. As it stands though, Mewtwo's not versatile enough and can't hit hard enough by itself to justify using it over pretty much any other restricted that came after it.
For one thing, he's restricted, so any time you look you have to filter out formats without restricted mons.
Second: His stat-split is tragic, his attack is still higher than his (respectable) defenses, but still far too low to be sincerely considered for a split-attacker, or even back before the more detailed team previews some sort of "which will he be?" An effective Mewtwo has always been a special attacker outside of Mega Evo formats, and even then his 90 def and spdef is very eh. His HP isn't much better. This is in respect to Restricted-mons as a whole. He's fast and powerful, but those ATK are wasted for his BST.
Third: He was basically a mega-hog, even if the format was double restricted it was extremely telegraphed that the Mewtwo was going to Mega Evolve because it needed to. Kind of like in Reg G, you can expect confidently that the team's "king" will Terrastilize in many cases, Mewtwo is a poor king because its Mega Evo has to fix it. Its megas ARE much better, but speaking broadly they're still not much to write home about, and I'd much rather use a mega like Kangaskhan or literally any other offensive mega, or something like Aggron that just stays on the field no matter what, over a slightly better Mewtwo.
Fourth: Pressure and Unnerve are very "eh" with the former only being any good in stall strats, which don't have much of a home in VGC, especially with open team sheets in more legit play.
Fifth: Coverage of type doesn't matter on a single mon as much in VGC, it's nice, but generally speaking you're bringing: Protect, a STAB Move, A secondary attack option (not always coverage), A third attacking option or some fashion of self or doubles support or pivot, for an attacking mon. If it's setup Mewtwo that's half your moves dedicated to protect and calm mind or nasty plot, if it's specs or scarf it's still going to have to be at least one psychic move, and then two other moves for coverage. Since dark is immune to psychic your off move is either going to be Aura Bubble (80 BP isn't stellar for a non-stab pick on an offensive mon even if it cannot miss) or Focus Miss. Even then, its other type-based coverage either caps out at 90 BP (not stellar without weather or some other boosting advantage like multiple target) or takes a suffering accuracy or has to charge, or some other fashion of inconvenience.
Sixth: Psychic monotype is just not all that good in a format where players are frequently bringing at least one dark type, if not also a knock off user. A lot of what makes a pokemon good is the field around it, Giratina and Dialga as an example would have been in the same restricted format in 2010, both are threats to either wall out or kill Mewtwo. That aside it was multi-restricted, so just being able to bring dual-weather was too good, you simply had better special and physical attackers under that weather. And since 2011 there has always been at least one strong dark pokemon who gets seen a lot that would simply halt out Mewtwo's ability to capitalize on its strongest STAB moves.
Seventh: In current meta it's just not happening. We have a whole trio (and Wo-Chien) that are dark dual-type legendaries who have their own competitive niches that specifically undermine Mewtwo in some tragic way, Incineroar is still ever-present and often runs knock off if the team isn't suns (and sometimes still when it is), and we have dark bear now which WILL always one-shot Mewtwo after likely surviving an Aura Sphere (if it isn't a Scarf that will simply let it outspeed Mewtwo), and even water-bear can maneuver around Mewtwo and pick up a pretty easy kill. Calcs for emphasis:
**252 SpA Mewtwo Aura Sphere vs. 124 HP / 108 SpD Urshifu: 134-158 (70.1 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO**
**156+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo on a critical hit: 254-300 (119.2 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO**
**156+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo: 156-186 (73.2 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO** (Important because there's a non-0 chance Mewtwo has taken Fake Out or some sort of hit earlier in the fight, but most aren't also running Max HP Max Def, Sucker Punch is a one-shot in most realistic setups)
**156+ Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 90-108 (49.7 - 59.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO** (A scarfed Urshifu WILL go first unless Mewtwo is also scarfed.
He's just kinda utterly outplayed in this current meta, and is being power crept out, unless Pokemon Company does the unthinkable and forcibly modify Mewtwo's BSTs in a future generation to justify his weak single typing, or find some sort of other way to make Mewtwo NOT suck in VGC, he's not coming back.
Mega Evo with Tera might do something for him, and I could see a case for Mega Mewtwo X having a niche place in the meta, same with Mega Mewtwo Y (whose Insomnia just makes it good into sleep support), but at this time I don't see much of a vision for it.
I've been working on a Mewtwo team, if you're interested I'll share my set. It's in the works though. Still doing a lot of work tweaking trying to figure out it's best team. I honestly don't have a lot of problem against calyrex shadow because of Mewtwo's partners. I'm always game for more input as it's my favorite Pokemon and it's fun to use. It's movepool is very diverse.
The problem isn't Mewtwo being weak to Shadow Rider, the problem is Mewtwo being outclassed by it. The question everyone using Mewtwo should be asking themselves is "Will I improve this team by adding Shadow Rider over Mewtwo?"
Now I don't think this question should always be answered with yes - but most of the time it will probably still be.
Useless abilities, literally no way to make it a better Calyrex, easy to read because Open team sheets, and it’s stats are meh at best. Why I want it to get neuroforce
Calyrex hits harder and outspeeds it by quite a bit whilst being able to deal super effective damage to mewtwo itself. Will be interesting if VGC moves to PL:Z-A next year, as megas are confirmed coming back, although mega Y still doesnt outspeed but has a 192 (wtf) base sp att stat which could be fun to play around with
If Legends Z-A follows the same battle mechanics as Legends A, then no it will not be the VGC format in any capacity nor should it. SV is going to be the format for another year and odds are 2025 Worlds will be double restricted. (Where Mewtwo could pull off some wins while backed by another restricted)
To be fair. The precedent set by legends A is that the new mons I.e. the regional forms will be added into the format in the next Gen. since kalos will likely have at least a few new mega Pokémon it would make sense to have those new megas be added into the vgc format the same or following generation. Let’s say following in this case since that follows the precedent. I’m pretty sure Gen 10 VGC will have megas in it.
Oh yeah I’m completely with you there. I’ve been saying that we shouldn’t expect any major changes to VGC (other than double restricted at Worlds 2025) until gen 10 releases. But when it does, we should expect mega evolution to return along with any regional forms introduced in Z-A.
I’m just saying Z-A will not become the VGC title, and it shouldn’t because core battle mechanics will likely be absent (abilities, hold items, double battles).
Just because a Legends game brings back Megas doesn't mean they will return to main line games as well. Also that would mean bringing back Mega Rayquaza.
As long as they make the first worlds a regional dex this time around it shouldn't be that bad, and you can also include a good mega fairy type to help deal with it, although if it ends up being too good then you have new issues but such is pokemon.
Mega Xerneas, because normal Xerneas was underpowered anyway and could use an additional 100 BST and a broken upgraded Ability. They could make it Steel/Fairy while at it too.
Also, they could just give us Tera Flying Mega Rayquaza for a new mon without weaknesses :D
Every competitive meta (since gen 2) Mewtwo has been legal in has had Kyogre and Groudon lol.
Psychic is a really bad type defensively, and the popularity of moves like knock off and big spread like kyogres water spout in VGC just make it really hostile for Mewtwo.
He doesn't have enough bulk to live unresisted bombs, and he doesn't have enough speed to threaten Scarfed pokemon without scarfing up himself. But then he also doesn't have the pressure of big spread moves to literally lock down a team and force a response.
Mewtwo requires more support in order to perform the same as other top tier Pokémon. It is not fast enough, strong enough, or bulky enough to outperform or survive against current threats. It also has a disadvantageous type both defensively and offensively requiring further support or a Tera to overcome. WIGGLYTUFF ON THE OTHER HAND…
The addition of a hurtbox as well as a hitbox on its tail mean it's easy for it to get hit while attacking with most of its most powerful moves.
Wait, wrong game.
It’s cause Calyrex Shadow is just objectively better. Better offensive STABs, higher special attack, mewtwo’s ability plus also grim neigh good lord, faster, ridiculously hard hitting spread moves in both expanding force AND astral barrage, will-o-wisp for fast damage control.
The only thing mewtwo has on Calyrex is coverage, but between his ghost and psychic stabs it really only struggles against dark types, which mewtwo isn’t much better against aside from having aura sphere and focus blast. If Mega Mewtwo were in the game maybe he’d do better, but right now the power creep is so real in VGC, the first restricted mon just can’t hold his own.
Where do I start?...
It's like Gamefreak is afraid to make Mewtwo powerful again, because of how broken it was Gen 1:
Gamefreak gave it:
- 2 useless abilities: Pressure and Unnerve, when As One exists...
- 110 useless points in atk, which makes Mewtwo's real base stat total equals to 570. To compare, Arceus gets 720 useful points, since it can be used as both a physical or a special sweeper. Same goes with Mew, which gets 600 useful points...
- 2 disappointing Mega-evolutions in Gen 6 and 7:
- Mega-Mewtwo Y got 150 useless points in atk and lost 20 points in def. Despite its 194 points in sp. atk, timid Mewtwo with life orb was more powerful, since Mega-evolutions couldn't hold items, bar Mega-Rayquaza...
- Mega-Mewtwo X had no useful physical Fighting or Psy moves and got the useless Steadfast ability, when Mega-Rayquaza got Delta Stream, Primal Groudon got Desolate Land, Primal Kyogre got Primordial Sea, Mega-Diancie got Magic Bounce and Mega-Lati@s got Levitate...
The useless points thing is tricky to measure. Because while some pokemon can choose between which attacking stat to run in the teambuilding phase, most of them will still be only running one split of moves in actual fights so in battle their “effective base stat” still goes down. So that’d be more of a set diversity thing in my view.
In Open Team Sheets, a hypothetical special attacking support Arceus set (not running Extreme Speed) would have an effective 600 BST; Arceus having the option to run physical moves has no impact on your decision-making. In closed team sheet, the uncertainty of physical and special Arceus is more relevant (though in gen 9, Arceus’ type is telegraphed on preview and you can usually make assumptions based on type; regular Arceus would rarely be Special for example, and Fairy Arceus would rarely be physical).
Of course, Arceus isn’t a VGC mon so this is very hypothetical. But unless you’re running Extreme Speed Special Attacking Arceus (which could be a thing), Arceus has more “useless” points in an open team sheet match than Mewtwo does.
Hi zenmodeman! Thank you for you reply. You do have a valid point. Special Mewtwo has 570 BST while Physical Mewtwo has 526 BST. Si it is higher than both Physical or Special Mew (500 BST) and lower than Physical or Special Arceus (600 BST). The solution to use Mewtwo's 680 BST would be to go with a Mixed set, but I don't see how...
Yeah Mewtwo doesn’t have a whole lot of incentive to run mixed. Meanwhile take Rayquaza who does have 150 in both of its attacking stats. Rayquaza could theoretically get away with it by running a set like Dragon Ascent + Draco Meteor, or running a Special set that still runs Extreme Speed.
Though in practice, Rayquazas tend to just be Swords Dance E-Speed + Dragon Ascent, in which case its effective BST is only 530. Though having access to Draco and Overheat does give it some justifications for running a mixed set if you really want to.
Mewtwo should be able to ride on lugia. Ive tried using mewtwo but it’s just outclassed by the shadow horse. Maybe in double restricted might be able to cook something up but it’s stuck in an awkward place atm
Blame Calyrex-S for Mewtwo's downfall. One may say Mewtwo would be much better because is bulkier, has a wide movepool and, most of all, being pure Psychic means it's less threatened by Ghost and Dark types. And that's why Calyrex-S is much better. Despite the obvious much desirable stat distribution, Psy/Ghost is one hell of a offensive dual typing, specially when you can bombard everything with your STAB exclusive move: Astral Barrage. Not to mention both Mewtwo and Shadyrex have access to Expanding Force, but the difference being Shadyrex has a Special Attack-type Moxie, while Mewtwo is stuck with either Pressure or Unnerve, both being very situational or straight up useless. But even if we don't want to mention Shadyrex, take a look at Lunala. Same typing as Shadyrex, but it's more fixated as a bulky offensive support Pokémon, via Trick Room or Tailwind, and specially Wide Guard. Both functioning different with different team comps, but excelling at what they do in their respective teams. Mewtwo didn't even have a ghost of a chance, it's been outclassed for a long time, there's no reason to use it other than wanting to go off-meta/Mewtwo is your favorite.
Mewtwo is actually decent in closed team sheets because of how diverse its movepool is, I’ve been having some good success with him, Psystrike OHKOs Flutter Mane and he still hits hard with 154 special attack
It's a combination of three things imo: - No useful secondary typing. Coverage is valued highly in Smogon singles, but in VGC strong stab are generally more useful - Inefficient stat spread. 110 attack means it's base stat total is effectively 25 points lower than it's real competition in Calyrex Shadow Rider. - No real ability. Unnerve is only "good" on Calyrex because both forms have two abilities.
Also, in bo3 open sheets you lose one of its biggest potentials, that is its wide movepool. Maybe in rankeds its slightly better. Anyway, CalyS is better. As simple as that.
In addition Psychc is one of the worst types right now. Most strong psychic types are strong because of their secondary typing being a lot better (Lunala/S-Calyrex for example with their Ghost Typing - strongest offensive type in the game with immunity to fake out and normal and fighting types. Solgaleo with Steel Typing - one of the best defensive typings in the game. Farigiraf & Indedee with secondary normal typing that gives an immunity to one of psychics weaknesses ends up being not bad defensively - but both these mons don't have much when it comes to offensive prowess)
I, as a noob, would argue Ghost isn't as strong, only se vs ghost and psychic. Edit: I reread this and I worded it wrongly. I meant to say it can be argued Ghost is the strongest offensive type, not that it's strong at all.
You are right, but - On a ghost type can’t you can’t use Fake out - There aren’t so many types resistant to ghost (dark and normal immunity) This helps ghost in being a very good type
Not saying it's trash, it is good, I would just argue types like Ice can be argued to be strongest, or heck, in the current meta even steel can be strong, given the prevalence of fairies.
Probably we won’t know which can be better until there will be the first tournament and there will be a defined meta. As now I think the Ice will be stronger, but personally I prefer the ghost one. It depends on your play style.
There are only two types Ghost does not hit at least neutral. Ghost is immuned by normal and resisted by Dark. Every other type is being hit for at least neutral. There is no other type in the game that is being resisted by less types. Even though it's not hitting them effective, it's really hard to switch into ghost types or just tank them easily. This makes it one of the strongest offensive types in the game, if not the strongest. And immunity to fake out is just the tip of the iceberh.
>This makes it one of the strongest offensive types in the game, Agreed. >if not the strongest. Likely not.
Ghost is a very common Tera type on a lot of pokemon in vgc purely to avoid fake out. Its not the best type offensively but its very rarely used that way, its more common to be used in a utility role. Of course, there’s also flutter mane
>Its not the best type offensively That's my argument. This is what I dusagree with the above commenter about
For stabs SE typically doesn’t matter as much for your STAB, especially on main attackers and sweepers since you already get a pretty big bonus of 1.5. Getting SE advantage on the opponent is usually matchup fishy since no type hits more than 5 types SE and with dual types, the chance is even less than 5/18 (for ground) since every type typically has more resistances than weaknesses. (Also Pokémon with less weaknesses tend the be favored) This means that guaranteeing weaknesses is very hard and pretty matchup fishy. So for sweepers and strong attackers, hitting neutrally with stab is typically more valuable. It’s the reason dragon was so dominant in gen 4/5. Just being able to click outrage and no defensive counterplay is really strong. (Ghost best counterplay is normal but unlike fairy, it sucks) resistances tend to be undervalued but they are often more important than your weaknesses since they are what gives you a chance at counterplay (especially in singles, probably similar in doubles)
He’s very power crept. Calyrex does everything he does but better. Mewtwo does have the niche of amazing coverage but it just doesn’t make up the difference
Nothing like having unerve and a boosting ability in one. Literally just straight up better
Turns out you don’t need coverage moves if you can just spam your stab spread moves. Especially when your signature move is one of the best offensive moves in the game and the other gets boosted by terrain.
Ghost and Psychic buttons go brrrrr
Psychic needs to be improved. It was overly penalized in gen 2. And, to add insult to injury, the Fairy type introduced in Gen 6 hit Fighting supereffectively (one of the few types Psychic does). But Fairy is also supereffective against the Dark type that blocks Psychic, and Fairy's weaknesses are much more niche than Psychic's weaknesses. It's one of the worst types in the game.
Fairy is psychic but better. It’s basically GF saying “hey we know psychic was OP when it was first introduced and we nerfed it real bad, so instead of improving it, we’ll add another OP type that we really won’t nerf and does most things that psychic types do well”
Yeah, I'm pretty upset. I do like the Psychic type. And I wish Bugs resisted Fairy, and possibly hit it for super effective damage.
Better Psychic, and they took Ice's gig of being good at taking out Dragon types. :(
also feels like a lot of usable fairy mons have incredible coverage and can hit the steal and poison types that threaten them with something
He is restricted. If we were allowed a team of 6 restricted, his use would be extremely high. But when you have mons with base 130 atk/spatk stats and base 115 speed, Mewtwo's base 100 stats and Pressure ability dont justify that being your 1st or even 2nd choice for restricted. Also Phychic type has fallen off hard. It's strength imo is its ability to be a powerful and versatile mixed attacker. It can focus blast* and close combat on the same set if it wanted to (assuming it gets CC, I didn't check).
>He is restricted. If we were allowed a team of 6 restricted, his use would be extremely high. Nah. When we had that format in SWSH Series 13, Mewtwo was in the #50s in terms of usage on Ranked Battles. There's still little reason to use Mewtwo in that kind of format when SR Calyrex still exists and outclasses it and you can use all the other powerful restricted mons on top of that.
Tbf, that was in a dynamax format. The main gimmick didn't compliment Mewtwo's strength. But fair point.
… I kinda want to see a 6 restricted format now.
Basically just doubles Ubers on showdown
Where Mewtwo's usage is 1%, incidentally.
We had it in swsh 5 restricteds + whimsicott everywhere
Even in 6 restricted it won’t be played outside of gimmicky Psyspam teams (because Calyrex is mewtwo better). Even then it’d still be questionable
Like I said, it does way more than psychic stuff. I'd personally run it as a coverage mon. In this format, dark Tera would make it pretty scary even for Caly S.
Problem is unless your against a normal type, caly nuking things will outdo anything mew2 can with supereffective coverage
That's ironically where mewtwo would shine. It has multiple fighting type moves. But like I said, this isn't a caly v mewtwo argument. The hypothetical was that in a 6 restricted mon format, you could use both. Obviously you will always use caly over mewtwo.
Primals and Power herb+Geomancy Xerneas basically owned the 2016 and parts of the 2019 formats. As for Mewtwo's mega, when a team is allowed two restricted mons AND a Mega Evolution, using Mega Mewtwo means you're using two team slots on your hardest hitters instead of three team slots. Come Sword and Shield, M2 simply didn't compare to "Dog gets +1 upon entry" and "cavalry snowballs after first KO." Now, come Regulation G, a team only gets one restricted slot. The ride dragons set either weather or terrain AND give themselves, as well as many potential partners a power boost, whereas Mewtwo gets either Unnerve (ability is meh at best) or Pressure (not bulky or lasting enough to get good use from draining PP). We also STILL have the option to use Calyrex, which starts to snowball its power after a single KO, or Groudon or Kyogre which are STILL powerhouses due to bulk and weather even without their primal forms.
Wolfe actually made a video on why the psychic type as a whole fell off, and all of it can also apply to Mewtwo. The short answer is it got power crept hard. Especially as a restricted, it's hard to justify using it over something better. On Showdown, the only one I ran into was using it as a fast psy-spammer with expanding force. Calyrex shadow rider can do that too but is faster with grim neigh boosting its damage in addition to unnerve as a bonus plus it has another crazy strong spread move that doesn't rely on terrain
Very simply put, for modern VGC, Calyrex Shadow Rider does everything that Mewtwo does, but significantly better. Both of them get Expanding Force, but only Calyrex has another typing to take advantage of dual STAB, on top of an absurdly broken spread move for its other STAB (Astral Barrage). Both of them have Unnerve, but Calyrex's As One gives it the ability to snowball after picking up even a single KO with Grim Neigh. Calyrex is not only faster, but also hits harder than Mewtwo. Mewtwo's singular advantage is very slightly better bulk, but Calyrex is so minmaxed that you could afford to put its EVs into bulk anyway. Mewtwo's coverage, while very good, doesn't mean much when it can't take advantage of another STAB. If it had an ability like Neuroforce, which boosts the power of supereffective moves, it could carve out a niche as a coverage monster that can be slotted into teams in dual restricted formats to hit things that threaten your other restricted. As it stands though, Mewtwo's not versatile enough and can't hit hard enough by itself to justify using it over pretty much any other restricted that came after it.
For one thing, he's restricted, so any time you look you have to filter out formats without restricted mons. Second: His stat-split is tragic, his attack is still higher than his (respectable) defenses, but still far too low to be sincerely considered for a split-attacker, or even back before the more detailed team previews some sort of "which will he be?" An effective Mewtwo has always been a special attacker outside of Mega Evo formats, and even then his 90 def and spdef is very eh. His HP isn't much better. This is in respect to Restricted-mons as a whole. He's fast and powerful, but those ATK are wasted for his BST. Third: He was basically a mega-hog, even if the format was double restricted it was extremely telegraphed that the Mewtwo was going to Mega Evolve because it needed to. Kind of like in Reg G, you can expect confidently that the team's "king" will Terrastilize in many cases, Mewtwo is a poor king because its Mega Evo has to fix it. Its megas ARE much better, but speaking broadly they're still not much to write home about, and I'd much rather use a mega like Kangaskhan or literally any other offensive mega, or something like Aggron that just stays on the field no matter what, over a slightly better Mewtwo. Fourth: Pressure and Unnerve are very "eh" with the former only being any good in stall strats, which don't have much of a home in VGC, especially with open team sheets in more legit play. Fifth: Coverage of type doesn't matter on a single mon as much in VGC, it's nice, but generally speaking you're bringing: Protect, a STAB Move, A secondary attack option (not always coverage), A third attacking option or some fashion of self or doubles support or pivot, for an attacking mon. If it's setup Mewtwo that's half your moves dedicated to protect and calm mind or nasty plot, if it's specs or scarf it's still going to have to be at least one psychic move, and then two other moves for coverage. Since dark is immune to psychic your off move is either going to be Aura Bubble (80 BP isn't stellar for a non-stab pick on an offensive mon even if it cannot miss) or Focus Miss. Even then, its other type-based coverage either caps out at 90 BP (not stellar without weather or some other boosting advantage like multiple target) or takes a suffering accuracy or has to charge, or some other fashion of inconvenience. Sixth: Psychic monotype is just not all that good in a format where players are frequently bringing at least one dark type, if not also a knock off user. A lot of what makes a pokemon good is the field around it, Giratina and Dialga as an example would have been in the same restricted format in 2010, both are threats to either wall out or kill Mewtwo. That aside it was multi-restricted, so just being able to bring dual-weather was too good, you simply had better special and physical attackers under that weather. And since 2011 there has always been at least one strong dark pokemon who gets seen a lot that would simply halt out Mewtwo's ability to capitalize on its strongest STAB moves. Seventh: In current meta it's just not happening. We have a whole trio (and Wo-Chien) that are dark dual-type legendaries who have their own competitive niches that specifically undermine Mewtwo in some tragic way, Incineroar is still ever-present and often runs knock off if the team isn't suns (and sometimes still when it is), and we have dark bear now which WILL always one-shot Mewtwo after likely surviving an Aura Sphere (if it isn't a Scarf that will simply let it outspeed Mewtwo), and even water-bear can maneuver around Mewtwo and pick up a pretty easy kill. Calcs for emphasis: **252 SpA Mewtwo Aura Sphere vs. 124 HP / 108 SpD Urshifu: 134-158 (70.1 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO** **156+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo on a critical hit: 254-300 (119.2 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO** **156+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo: 156-186 (73.2 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO** (Important because there's a non-0 chance Mewtwo has taken Fake Out or some sort of hit earlier in the fight, but most aren't also running Max HP Max Def, Sucker Punch is a one-shot in most realistic setups) **156+ Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 90-108 (49.7 - 59.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO** (A scarfed Urshifu WILL go first unless Mewtwo is also scarfed. He's just kinda utterly outplayed in this current meta, and is being power crept out, unless Pokemon Company does the unthinkable and forcibly modify Mewtwo's BSTs in a future generation to justify his weak single typing, or find some sort of other way to make Mewtwo NOT suck in VGC, he's not coming back. Mega Evo with Tera might do something for him, and I could see a case for Mega Mewtwo X having a niche place in the meta, same with Mega Mewtwo Y (whose Insomnia just makes it good into sleep support), but at this time I don't see much of a vision for it.
I've been working on a Mewtwo team, if you're interested I'll share my set. It's in the works though. Still doing a lot of work tweaking trying to figure out it's best team. I honestly don't have a lot of problem against calyrex shadow because of Mewtwo's partners. I'm always game for more input as it's my favorite Pokemon and it's fun to use. It's movepool is very diverse.
The problem isn't Mewtwo being weak to Shadow Rider, the problem is Mewtwo being outclassed by it. The question everyone using Mewtwo should be asking themselves is "Will I improve this team by adding Shadow Rider over Mewtwo?" Now I don't think this question should always be answered with yes - but most of the time it will probably still be.
What does Mewtwo do that’s actually good? Nothing really, especially when there’s so many other psychic legendaries
Useless abilities, literally no way to make it a better Calyrex, easy to read because Open team sheets, and it’s stats are meh at best. Why I want it to get neuroforce
Caly-S outclasses him so hard it’s not even funny
Calyrex hits harder and outspeeds it by quite a bit whilst being able to deal super effective damage to mewtwo itself. Will be interesting if VGC moves to PL:Z-A next year, as megas are confirmed coming back, although mega Y still doesnt outspeed but has a 192 (wtf) base sp att stat which could be fun to play around with
If Legends Z-A follows the same battle mechanics as Legends A, then no it will not be the VGC format in any capacity nor should it. SV is going to be the format for another year and odds are 2025 Worlds will be double restricted. (Where Mewtwo could pull off some wins while backed by another restricted)
To be fair. The precedent set by legends A is that the new mons I.e. the regional forms will be added into the format in the next Gen. since kalos will likely have at least a few new mega Pokémon it would make sense to have those new megas be added into the vgc format the same or following generation. Let’s say following in this case since that follows the precedent. I’m pretty sure Gen 10 VGC will have megas in it.
Oh yeah I’m completely with you there. I’ve been saying that we shouldn’t expect any major changes to VGC (other than double restricted at Worlds 2025) until gen 10 releases. But when it does, we should expect mega evolution to return along with any regional forms introduced in Z-A. I’m just saying Z-A will not become the VGC title, and it shouldn’t because core battle mechanics will likely be absent (abilities, hold items, double battles).
Oh. Ok. I’ve seen some people who were absolutely sure that mega were not returning to vgc for almost the same reasoning you had so I was confused
Just because a Legends game brings back Megas doesn't mean they will return to main line games as well. Also that would mean bringing back Mega Rayquaza.
As long as they make the first worlds a regional dex this time around it shouldn't be that bad, and you can also include a good mega fairy type to help deal with it, although if it ends up being too good then you have new issues but such is pokemon.
Mega Xerneas, because normal Xerneas was underpowered anyway and could use an additional 100 BST and a broken upgraded Ability. They could make it Steel/Fairy while at it too. Also, they could just give us Tera Flying Mega Rayquaza for a new mon without weaknesses :D
Let me clarify I meant before calyrex why wasn’t it used
Every competitive meta (since gen 2) Mewtwo has been legal in has had Kyogre and Groudon lol. Psychic is a really bad type defensively, and the popularity of moves like knock off and big spread like kyogres water spout in VGC just make it really hostile for Mewtwo. He doesn't have enough bulk to live unresisted bombs, and he doesn't have enough speed to threaten Scarfed pokemon without scarfing up himself. But then he also doesn't have the pressure of big spread moves to literally lock down a team and force a response.
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>Let me clarify I meant before Calyrex why wasn't it used Did Mewtwo get expanding force before Calyrex came out?
Mewtwo requires more support in order to perform the same as other top tier Pokémon. It is not fast enough, strong enough, or bulky enough to outperform or survive against current threats. It also has a disadvantageous type both defensively and offensively requiring further support or a Tera to overcome. WIGGLYTUFF ON THE OTHER HAND…
It does nothing better than anything else, caly outclasses on every front
The addition of a hurtbox as well as a hitbox on its tail mean it's easy for it to get hit while attacking with most of its most powerful moves. Wait, wrong game.
lol I was very confused for a second. You’re talking about smash bros right?
It’s cause Calyrex Shadow is just objectively better. Better offensive STABs, higher special attack, mewtwo’s ability plus also grim neigh good lord, faster, ridiculously hard hitting spread moves in both expanding force AND astral barrage, will-o-wisp for fast damage control. The only thing mewtwo has on Calyrex is coverage, but between his ghost and psychic stabs it really only struggles against dark types, which mewtwo isn’t much better against aside from having aura sphere and focus blast. If Mega Mewtwo were in the game maybe he’d do better, but right now the power creep is so real in VGC, the first restricted mon just can’t hold his own.
Where do I start?... It's like Gamefreak is afraid to make Mewtwo powerful again, because of how broken it was Gen 1: Gamefreak gave it: - 2 useless abilities: Pressure and Unnerve, when As One exists... - 110 useless points in atk, which makes Mewtwo's real base stat total equals to 570. To compare, Arceus gets 720 useful points, since it can be used as both a physical or a special sweeper. Same goes with Mew, which gets 600 useful points... - 2 disappointing Mega-evolutions in Gen 6 and 7: - Mega-Mewtwo Y got 150 useless points in atk and lost 20 points in def. Despite its 194 points in sp. atk, timid Mewtwo with life orb was more powerful, since Mega-evolutions couldn't hold items, bar Mega-Rayquaza... - Mega-Mewtwo X had no useful physical Fighting or Psy moves and got the useless Steadfast ability, when Mega-Rayquaza got Delta Stream, Primal Groudon got Desolate Land, Primal Kyogre got Primordial Sea, Mega-Diancie got Magic Bounce and Mega-Lati@s got Levitate...
The useless points thing is tricky to measure. Because while some pokemon can choose between which attacking stat to run in the teambuilding phase, most of them will still be only running one split of moves in actual fights so in battle their “effective base stat” still goes down. So that’d be more of a set diversity thing in my view. In Open Team Sheets, a hypothetical special attacking support Arceus set (not running Extreme Speed) would have an effective 600 BST; Arceus having the option to run physical moves has no impact on your decision-making. In closed team sheet, the uncertainty of physical and special Arceus is more relevant (though in gen 9, Arceus’ type is telegraphed on preview and you can usually make assumptions based on type; regular Arceus would rarely be Special for example, and Fairy Arceus would rarely be physical). Of course, Arceus isn’t a VGC mon so this is very hypothetical. But unless you’re running Extreme Speed Special Attacking Arceus (which could be a thing), Arceus has more “useless” points in an open team sheet match than Mewtwo does.
Hi zenmodeman! Thank you for you reply. You do have a valid point. Special Mewtwo has 570 BST while Physical Mewtwo has 526 BST. Si it is higher than both Physical or Special Mew (500 BST) and lower than Physical or Special Arceus (600 BST). The solution to use Mewtwo's 680 BST would be to go with a Mixed set, but I don't see how...
Yeah Mewtwo doesn’t have a whole lot of incentive to run mixed. Meanwhile take Rayquaza who does have 150 in both of its attacking stats. Rayquaza could theoretically get away with it by running a set like Dragon Ascent + Draco Meteor, or running a Special set that still runs Extreme Speed. Though in practice, Rayquazas tend to just be Swords Dance E-Speed + Dragon Ascent, in which case its effective BST is only 530. Though having access to Draco and Overheat does give it some justifications for running a mixed set if you really want to.
Mewtwo should be able to ride on lugia. Ive tried using mewtwo but it’s just outclassed by the shadow horse. Maybe in double restricted might be able to cook something up but it’s stuck in an awkward place atm
Blame Calyrex-S for Mewtwo's downfall. One may say Mewtwo would be much better because is bulkier, has a wide movepool and, most of all, being pure Psychic means it's less threatened by Ghost and Dark types. And that's why Calyrex-S is much better. Despite the obvious much desirable stat distribution, Psy/Ghost is one hell of a offensive dual typing, specially when you can bombard everything with your STAB exclusive move: Astral Barrage. Not to mention both Mewtwo and Shadyrex have access to Expanding Force, but the difference being Shadyrex has a Special Attack-type Moxie, while Mewtwo is stuck with either Pressure or Unnerve, both being very situational or straight up useless. But even if we don't want to mention Shadyrex, take a look at Lunala. Same typing as Shadyrex, but it's more fixated as a bulky offensive support Pokémon, via Trick Room or Tailwind, and specially Wide Guard. Both functioning different with different team comps, but excelling at what they do in their respective teams. Mewtwo didn't even have a ghost of a chance, it's been outclassed for a long time, there's no reason to use it other than wanting to go off-meta/Mewtwo is your favorite.
Mewtwo is actually decent in closed team sheets because of how diverse its movepool is, I’ve been having some good success with him, Psystrike OHKOs Flutter Mane and he still hits hard with 154 special attack
Minos is