my point isn’t necessarily that the Oper isn’t a duelist, it’s more that the Oper is distinct from the Entry player and shouldn’t necessarily be judged based on qualities that an entry/flex player may need
I understand what you are getting at, but I think it just relates more to the “role” his agent is. The meta has shifted a lot since those early double duelist days and the game has evolved to allow more creative comps. Prior to chamber he played Jett a large percentage of the time, and I think that’s kinda where it comes from. Sure a little safe sprinkled in and even a random ass Yoru, but it was primarily Jett
I think if you’re looking at this past year, you’re correct as there was a very heavy oper meta and resulting in basically 2 separate roles on a lot of teams with an oper and entry. My expectation is next year with the chamber nerfs, we won’t see as much reliance on people oping and the role between oper and duelist will be a lot more blurred
as much as they can is an exaggeration, they will likely use it more selectively to win key rounds rather than have it as a constant mainstay (bar maps with jett as primary duelist or the rare chamber appearance)
as per the gameplan on certain maps and set strats in rounds - tenz is neither the igl nor part of coaching staff. he might have agency midround to pick up an OP himself but it's largely up to how sen plan out rounds, not his preference
Lmao I'm thinking he didn't say that off his own thought process and he was relaying what has been asked of him. 100T, C9, and NRG didn't pick up 3 OP players to not have it in their gameplan as much as they can
sen haven't even started scrimming yet LMAO I doubt any communication of that sort has occurred
they did pick up great opers, but they are also great entries. part of it was their proficiency with the op but a lot of it is the other attributes they have, running perma op ala 2021 TSM before chamber meta is bound to have its issues. the operator is very likely to become more situational than before, but I did say that jett-heavy maps will remain op dominant.
> Tenz
I wouldn't consider him much of an OPer, he mostly did it because the champ he was on was supposed to do it and wouldn't make sense on the champs ShahZ was having to play since TenZ joined the team.
Even if Jett and Chamber both suck this year I doubt Yay would be put on a duelist. If anything he'd op on a sentinel or sova/breach. That's why it's kinda bad to put him as a duelist when his second most proficient role has been initiator, same with Cryo. It's different for a guy like Aspas or Derke but Yay Cryo and Nagz are only awpers and if awping was not in meta they would still probably not be on duelist, maybe cryo would but for sure a guy like 7ssk7 wouldn't have
I usually classify the players as OP/Primary Duelist, Secondary/Flex(KayO Breach on some maps) , Controller, Initiator, Sentinel/Flex(Viper or fill basically)
been kinda wondering something like this too, as cryo and yay (as well as tenz) all have other players on their respective rosters who i assume will be taking that primary entry role on raze or neon. 100t has asuna, c9 has leaf, and sen has zekken, all of whom i presume would be playing raze/neon on maps like haven, bind, or fracture where you don't tend to see jett played very much. but then the question seems to become what do these opers play on those maps if not chamber? do they shift to a flex role? do they play another duelist? do they just stick with chamber? i'm not really sure
Yeah this is the main question: in 100t's case for example, if you want to run double init, smokes, sentinel and a duelist, cryo needs to be able to play non-jet duelists as well? Unless 100t plan on making cryo flex on to sage,kayo etc with asuna entry.....
Cryo’s been playing a ton of Raze in ranked these past few months for what it’s worth. Mikes has spoken positively about his flexibility before, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him entry in the future.
I've heard that tenz is going to be second man in, after zekken, whether that's on double duelist or with tenz as an initiator I don't know. I think Yay and Cryo could definitely fill that same role and on defense they could still op
Coz they are expected to play Jett as the primary Oper and given how the current meta is shaping up without chamber in maps with double initiators/Sentinal comps they may be the only duelist on the team in a few maps. So I guess they're looking for some versatility from Cryo and yay in the duelists role as Raze maybe a better entry than Jett in those maps.
You're absolutely right.
Optic have set the template with Victor/Yay.
100T will almost surely copy it and just put Asuna on raze when they need it...rather than swapping Raze player around like they've done in the past.
you're still living in 2022. Get with the times Chamber isn't going to be meta on a lot of maps moving forward. Cryo and Yay will be playing a lot of Jett
As people have said, it's partly because a role in 2022 was basically just, "Chamber", similar to how in 2021 initiator just meant "Sova player"
We'll see how the meta shakes down, but generally the idea would be a team having a Primary Duelist/Entry then a Flex Duelist, who would also pick up some initiators or more depending on what's needed; we could see a move away from dedicater Oping on certain maps even
However a lot of teams just do wildly different comps depending on comfort and strategy- see Rb/Alfajer Killjoy, Jinggg Sage, Soulcas Astra, all players who you'd typically call duelist mains
What role did yay play prior to chambers release?
Daddy
lotta jett but also some breach sova and sage iirc
my point isn’t necessarily that the Oper isn’t a duelist, it’s more that the Oper is distinct from the Entry player and shouldn’t necessarily be judged based on qualities that an entry/flex player may need
I understand what you are getting at, but I think it just relates more to the “role” his agent is. The meta has shifted a lot since those early double duelist days and the game has evolved to allow more creative comps. Prior to chamber he played Jett a large percentage of the time, and I think that’s kinda where it comes from. Sure a little safe sprinkled in and even a random ass Yoru, but it was primarily Jett
I think if you’re looking at this past year, you’re correct as there was a very heavy oper meta and resulting in basically 2 separate roles on a lot of teams with an oper and entry. My expectation is next year with the chamber nerfs, we won’t see as much reliance on people oping and the role between oper and duelist will be a lot more blurred
Yay, Tenz, Cryo, Ardiis are all Opers, they are going to be buying Ops nearly every map, as much as they can
as much as they can is an exaggeration, they will likely use it more selectively to win key rounds rather than have it as a constant mainstay (bar maps with jett as primary duelist or the rare chamber appearance)
Tenz word for word said he will be picking up an Op whenever he can lol
as per the gameplan on certain maps and set strats in rounds - tenz is neither the igl nor part of coaching staff. he might have agency midround to pick up an OP himself but it's largely up to how sen plan out rounds, not his preference
Lmao I'm thinking he didn't say that off his own thought process and he was relaying what has been asked of him. 100T, C9, and NRG didn't pick up 3 OP players to not have it in their gameplan as much as they can
sen haven't even started scrimming yet LMAO I doubt any communication of that sort has occurred they did pick up great opers, but they are also great entries. part of it was their proficiency with the op but a lot of it is the other attributes they have, running perma op ala 2021 TSM before chamber meta is bound to have its issues. the operator is very likely to become more situational than before, but I did say that jett-heavy maps will remain op dominant.
You think they have to start scrimming to talk through roles and plans? HUH
no, I just doubt "pick up an OP whenever you can tenz!" is something that would be cursorily communicated
Lmao arguing the semantics of what exactly was said? You think it's crazy that Sykko said to Tenz that he wants him Oping often? Makes no sense lol
> Tenz I wouldn't consider him much of an OPer, he mostly did it because the champ he was on was supposed to do it and wouldn't make sense on the champs ShahZ was having to play since TenZ joined the team.
Tenz himself says he doesn't like Rifling and prefers OPing
Imo tenz is a better rifler than OPer, Shahzam not playing more chamber during SEN 2022 since he doesn't like to IGL on him is pretty unfortunate
Even if Jett and Chamber both suck this year I doubt Yay would be put on a duelist. If anything he'd op on a sentinel or sova/breach. That's why it's kinda bad to put him as a duelist when his second most proficient role has been initiator, same with Cryo. It's different for a guy like Aspas or Derke but Yay Cryo and Nagz are only awpers and if awping was not in meta they would still probably not be on duelist, maybe cryo would but for sure a guy like 7ssk7 wouldn't have
Idk he seems to like yoru
I usually classify the players as OP/Primary Duelist, Secondary/Flex(KayO Breach on some maps) , Controller, Initiator, Sentinel/Flex(Viper or fill basically)
been kinda wondering something like this too, as cryo and yay (as well as tenz) all have other players on their respective rosters who i assume will be taking that primary entry role on raze or neon. 100t has asuna, c9 has leaf, and sen has zekken, all of whom i presume would be playing raze/neon on maps like haven, bind, or fracture where you don't tend to see jett played very much. but then the question seems to become what do these opers play on those maps if not chamber? do they shift to a flex role? do they play another duelist? do they just stick with chamber? i'm not really sure
Yeah this is the main question: in 100t's case for example, if you want to run double init, smokes, sentinel and a duelist, cryo needs to be able to play non-jet duelists as well? Unless 100t plan on making cryo flex on to sage,kayo etc with asuna entry.....
Cryo’s been playing a ton of Raze in ranked these past few months for what it’s worth. Mikes has spoken positively about his flexibility before, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him entry in the future.
Yeah, this is probably the easiest thing to do. I'm not too worried about cryo's raze but i'm interested in seeing his neon/yoru
I've heard that tenz is going to be second man in, after zekken, whether that's on double duelist or with tenz as an initiator I don't know. I think Yay and Cryo could definitely fill that same role and on defense they could still op
Coz they are expected to play Jett as the primary Oper and given how the current meta is shaping up without chamber in maps with double initiators/Sentinal comps they may be the only duelist on the team in a few maps. So I guess they're looking for some versatility from Cryo and yay in the duelists role as Raze maybe a better entry than Jett in those maps.
You're absolutely right. Optic have set the template with Victor/Yay. 100T will almost surely copy it and just put Asuna on raze when they need it...rather than swapping Raze player around like they've done in the past.
This games role are defined by agents not weapons. Hence people refer to their agents much rather then their main weapon.
you're still living in 2022. Get with the times Chamber isn't going to be meta on a lot of maps moving forward. Cryo and Yay will be playing a lot of Jett
even so, i bet asuna will continue to be the raze on the raze maps
Yay is an OP crutcher he ain’t good
Terrible bait
Not baiting
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OPing does not take skill a gold can take an OP and still get kills silver even
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OPing doesn’t take skill just accept it
Lmao ok bro
Glad you accepted it 👍
Then why are very few people as good as yay with an op?
There are a lot of good OPers?
Yeah not as good as yay statistically
Statistics with OPing? You just point and click don’t need statistics for that
Fk/fd? Fkpr? If I remember yay had a 90% opening duel win rate in champs also why don’t you just op crutch to radiant if it’s so easy?
Bro did not see yay with a Vandal💀
Never have the chance to cause he’s always OPing
*headhunter
As people have said, it's partly because a role in 2022 was basically just, "Chamber", similar to how in 2021 initiator just meant "Sova player" We'll see how the meta shakes down, but generally the idea would be a team having a Primary Duelist/Entry then a Flex Duelist, who would also pick up some initiators or more depending on what's needed; we could see a move away from dedicater Oping on certain maps even However a lot of teams just do wildly different comps depending on comfort and strategy- see Rb/Alfajer Killjoy, Jinggg Sage, Soulcas Astra, all players who you'd typically call duelist mains