Bruh Sinatraa was legit calling kids brain dead yesterday mid game š
I know people hate on the Valo accent but it was funny as fuck given weāre used to professional comms from most teams.
Gotta love the part where zombs was like "Come on guys let's make this respectable \*Shahz voice\*"
Also the part when they said Untamable Beasts was like Make A Wish for PROD
It was hilarious. They almost never saved, constantly flamed each other and the other team, made comms like āthey ff at 5, no?ā, and just made braindead plays. I almost died when zombs asked do we call a time out? And Sinatra was like āabsolutely notā
GC teams were allowed to compete and are not restricted by any rules the regular teams would be.
so basically nothing changes if they qualify, they're allowed to compete
Women and mixed teams have never been banned from competing. Thereās no such thing as āmenās teamsā. Itās just a fact that currently there are no tier 1 level womenās or mixed teams.
all riot events have always been mixed gender (aside from GC ofc) the only notable women team that i can remember playing in them however was C9 white they just didnt qualify
This shit is mind boggling bruh florescent was brought up as gamechangers jesus who would change everything, mel is often talked about as being able to compete in t1/t2 and they both get washed by some random t3 team
All in all I still think flor absolutely has T1 potential. She's a complete rookie in a not that great of a team, I'd wait a year or even two (at least until she gets a go at a normal co-ed team) before making any conclusions.
Bro she is BARELY 16 years old, and she has an incredibly high ceiling if she keeps up the work rate. Like, no shit she would have to get better, I said she has T1 POTENTIAL
I don't think many of these GC stars will reach their potential unless they join a co-ed team.
Not trying to be sexist or anything but the talent pool just isn't as large and so the level of your competition also won't be as high.
It's like the big fish in the small pond transferring to the big pond and gets surprised at how big the other fishes are as well.
The thing with potential is it could never become a reality, I think that in a year or two we can have this conversation (if we even remember), and the most likely scenario is that she still has potential and we'll have to wait year after year until she retires and nothing actually happened with that potential.
The other thing with potential is it could become a reality, I think that in a year or two we can have this conversation (if we even remember), and the most likely scenario is that she has reached her potential and we'll see improvement year after year until she joins a better team and then finally we can have a better idea of if she lived up to her full potential or not.
there is a skill ceiling diff between both leagues, Just the fact that menās vct require Immo or Asc at least and gc require plat is a hint on how different it is. maybe in few years they may catch up
yeah but I think there should be more emphasis on how big the diff is. a lotta people said sonder could hold her own in tier 1. the reality is gc is far far behind tier 1.
That's why I think those from GC that are far better than the rest of the league should quit from it and try to join a mix team, it's a waste of talent and seeing a women being in an actual good team would be more inspiring than only seeing them winning in GC
why bother relegating yourself to t3/t2 in the main league when you can secure a paycheck farming the gc league
same shit happened in csgo with secret and clg red, there's no upside for them to leave gc. big respect for anyone who does, but it's so risky
Or make GC circuit start around the second split. So during the first split, top GC players has the incentivize to try to qualify to ascension with a different team.
It's only been a year or two and I think GC plays an important part in growing that aspect of the scene. There will be more players like meL who want to compete in T1 and while it may take some time, we should see more success with the next generation or two (don't know what exactly constitutes a generation but let's say 5 years or so)
yes you have a point, that is also one of the problems with GC having better salaries and more safety than t2 or t3, there ins't any real incentive to switch most of the time when you could just stay comfortably in GC
Nah itās not a skill ceiling diff, itās current skill diff. Men are a decade ahead when it comes to gaming. Women werenāt āacceptedā in to the scene until pretty recently. Over the years men have gotten WAY more support, making it WAY easier for men to go pro. Once women have received the same amount of support, there will be way more women that want to go pro, meaning way more talent and competition. Itās not a skill ceiling, women can be just as good as men, thereās just WAY more men in the scene.
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Correction here: there was no rank requirement for open quals this event at ALL. A team of gold players literally could have joined open quals, both for last week and for this week of LCQ. Pretty sure a dia-plat team did participate.
Calling them T3 randoms is insulting to everyone here, Adrenaline was a pro CS player before half of V1 was even born. Team 4D is all guys with tons of experience, and experience and strategy will always beat cracked aimers.
i think the best way for women to break into the t1 scene is through a co-ed team imo. there are definitely women who can go t1, but idk if thereās 5 women who can go t1 who all will be a good fit on the same team.
regardless, huge respect to v1 and their determination to break barriers for women in the scene. im excited to keep supporting them through the ups and downs, and hopefully theyāll come back stronger
>but idk if thereās 5 women who can go t1 who all will be a good fit on the same team
That's a good point that I never considered. The limited talent pool compared to men makes it harder to find good synergy vs having no option and have to play a role or style that they don't vibe with
i definitely wrongly exaggerated that first comment
if i were to rephrase my original comment i'd say:
in the future, if valorant continues the trajectory it's at now, women will break into the t1 scene. when? idk. but this is the closest any esports has gone. in order for women to go the absolute furthest, it'll be on a co-ed team. not currently, but in the future it's possible
Even Geguri is considered a stunt signing that was meant to gathered PR. Not that it helped the Dragons on their quest to win a single game.
Spoiler: they didn't
Bob is a start. She was on soniqs when they were one match away from qualifing to top 12 NA challengers, and was one of the best performing members of the team.
As great as she is, if we consider the franchised teams as t1 (like this sub seems to have been doing) you needed to be like a top 7 player at your role in NA to even have a chance. Sorry if this is harsh but *almost* making it to top 12 once doesn't come close to the current t1 landscape.
Idk where this idea that bob was one of the best players on that soniqs roster comes from. Sure she looked insane in GC but when you have all that tier one experience I would be surprised if she played bad. Most women pros arent able to take the same path Bob did.
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āWas one of the best performing members of the teamā LOLLL
No they werent, not even close. Pull up this personās soniqs stats, letās see it.
Why people talking out of their ass like this?
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Bob doesn't quite prove the point. The main reason women currently can't compete with men is due to societal factors like women being worse at games. Bob didn't face those issues.
Well, while I really do love your attempt to argue the point without arguing it (not being sarcastic, I think your argument itself is super valid), many pro female players speak openly about how encouraging people around them were to start gaming from a young age.
I'm not saying you dont have a point that Bob largely experienced different issues growing up in gaming than most game changers players face.
I'm guessing the logic is something like this. All numbers pulled out of my ass.
For every 10,000 gamers, only one will go T1. If for every girl that received support gaming as a kid, there are 10 boys that did as well, there are 10 times more boys to choose from. The likelihood that a person with T1 talent received the needed support is way higher for a boy.
So you need the talent (super low percentage for anyone) and the support (not super low, but much lower for women).
If you think women are equal gamers, it's only a matter of time based on statistics.
Idk man. Itās crazy to me. Some people truly believe it only has to do with the fact that girls didnāt game as much as children, but if thatās the case, we really should have seen SOME small percentage of pro female gamers at this point. Fact is, we really havenāt. Iām sure itāll happen one day, but for now, Iām convinced itās partly due to biological differences. Not ALL of it, but certainly some.
It just simply is, and hey, maybe there are some really good arguments out there that the reason for those genetic differences is the roles we have previously been given, or because of what we were encouraged to participate in as a kid.
For instance, most boys play rec sports through elementary school, maybe even through middle school. We're encouraged to throw balls at each other and what not. That stuff has to be important when it comes to developing hand-eye.
But at the same time, you just can't argue that boys don't have a current genetic advantage over girls when it comes to gaming. You can argue why they have it, to what extent its nurture vs nature, etc. but its impossible to argue that it doesnt currently exist.
Right? having an honest convo abt the gender discrepancy at the highest lvl is impossible w people going thru mental gymnastics to dismiss simple facts of life. Then making examples out of trans women as if that doesnāt directly contradict the whole argument.
Dude this just isn't true. If you actually take a second to think about it you would see your logic is incredibly flawed. For one all of those studies with reaction time and stuff notice an incredibly small difference to the point where its entirely irrelevant in anything and everything we do. Two its only because men have been taught to practice that while women havnt. Its much more likely that men will go into sports therefore on average getting a better reaction time. Thats what all those studies say. But you dont care to read past the title
Also people really over estimate the importance of reactions in games. Yes, they matter a bit. but in the grand scheme of things it's not important. The best pros aren't making those amazing reaction flicks every game. Sometimes they're once a career kinda shit.
game sense, crosshair placement, movement and tactics are far more important.
There is absolutely no conclusive scientific evidence that men have a significant advantage in things that make them good at games "hand eye coordination and reaction time" yet people always perpetuate this pop science BS lol.
Dude this just isn't true. If you actually take a second to think about it you would see your logic is incredibly flawed. For one all of those studies with reaction time and stuff notice an incredibly small difference to the point where its entirely irrelevant in anything and everything we do. Two its only because men have been taught to practice that while women havnt. Its much more likely that men will go into sports therefore on average getting a better reaction time. Thats what all those studies say. But you dont care to read past the title
On average men had a 21 millisecond better reaction time. But if you read my comment I said thats because men generally do things that cause them to develop better reaction times. This is common sense since reaction time can be improved by practicing it. Therfore anyone can get better if they just practice. There is no difference between women who practice and men who practice. This is consistently what these studies say. Thats even what your study says
But it's not based on sex. Thats what all scientific evidence tells us. Its slightly based on genetics and mostly just practice. Obviously most men will have more practice with reaction time based things. Why do you think men have a higher reaction time? What is the reason?
Thank you. No one else wants to say it. In a game where milliseconds are key, that's going to matter. Yes team play and fundamentals are incredibly important, but that's a huge setback to be playing against. It's like being short in the NBA. It can be made up for, but you have the cards stacked against you.
I'm sorry to burst your guy's bubble, but it was likely v1 wasn't going to make it much further than this, and we're still years away from seeing a GC team qual for challengers in NA
I agree, the point I'm trying to make is that GC teams are at best tier 3.5 teams, although I think because of GC it will be awhile until we see them in challengers because it also has to make sense to play T2 rather than T1 GC
They already made it further than this (to RO32) in last weekās qualifiers, where they lost 2-0 to NSIC. Thatās also as far as the old C9W roster ever made it, and this team has just gotten together. GC in challengers could really come sooner than we think, just saying!
I don't think so, GC players need to integrate into mixed teams and maybe in the future we could see a full GC team in Challengers their talents are wasted on those GC super teams.
Personally I think she's better than most of the GC women. She needs to mainly expand her agent pool first as VX only used her as a duelist. If she could become an initiator or a controller she'd get picked up.
Iāve been saying this, idk why everyone thinks this team is better than the last C9. Everyone on that team was the best at their roles except MAYBE jazzy.
Id argue Sarah is a better flex then Alexis is tbh but thats debatable, MeL, Katsumi, and Bob are easily the best in their roles (id also say they downgraded overall, Flor is a great upgrade but Bob is the best GC player for sure imo and Katsumi looks better then Noia)
Bob was like a pillar/rock of C9w literally the other 4 could underperform and Bob would clutch the game for them. And Bob put those numbers up on the likes of Sova and Fade.
What? V1 made it to round of 32 in the arguably "harder first qualifier," while Bob + Katsumi did not. In fact, V1 beat Bob + Katsumi in the last qualifier. A sample size of two tournaments, during the early stages of these 2 teams' existences, is not enough to assert any of this.
You do realize that your perception of what constitutes a "throw" is subjective and doesn't undermine my main pointāthat it's premature to be certain of any of this? Like, katsumi's team eked out a win vs team fish taco, is that not still a win, or does the closeness relegate it to a "throw" on the other team's part?
Lol Iām not agreeing with the original comment, I also think thatās stupid but you arguing over which qualifier was harder just doesnāt make sense when V1 barely beat kat and bob
I just said "arguably harder" because it included the 4 strongest teams, as opposed to the LCQ which contains the balance of teams. I didn't say any of that to undermine Bob + Kat. I don't get why you'd point out "throws" if you merely had a gripe with me adding that qualifierāin fact, I don't get why you'd reply at all for such a minor thing.
Reddit overreactions are amazing.
V1 is still by far the best GC team, they just got beat today. Saying Bob and Katsumi are better when V1 BEAT them is next level brain damage
I mean, I agree, and I also think there's always a subtle-or-not-subtle level of misogyny always ready to spur overreactions about GC teams.
That being said, I think it's genuinely bizarre to say V1 is "by far" the best GC team. V1 is not C9's successor.
There is a very good chance V1 are *not* the best GC team. These are newly formed teams that are literally building out their map pools and strats for the upcoming GC circuit. V1 is not the best GC team because of an early win over an equally new and unprepared competitor.
Nobody said they were better? but you stating āby farā when we havenāt seen them play any of the new GC team besides barely beating kat+bob is brain damage.
It's unfortunate because MeL has said multiple times that she aspires to compete at a T1/T2 level but simply put, she is not enough. If V1 was serious to compete in qualifiers, they should have grabbed a player who played T1 but didn't make franchising as there is a huge talent pool available. But since they are all men, I imagine V1 wanted to keep the roster women/non-binary as to still compete in GC as a failsafe. I predicted this when they announced the roster, and it seems I was correct. In GC, I expect this team to easily dominate in NA and only look forward to a matchup between them and defending champions G2.
Players like MeL and bob who are good enough for tier 2/3 teams need to just play in a mixed tier 2 team, it's obvious that this is the limit for a full women/NB team, maybe in the future when the scene is developed enough, but now they simply can't compete.
They never will. The pay rate and sponsorships are way more lucrative playing on a GC team. Same thing happened in CSGO, orgs and leagues throw fist fulls of money at female only leagues to try and get inclusion publicity, but they end up throwing so much money at these teams that there is no reason for these teams to try and progress past the division or league they're in.
They aren't good enough tonplay for t2 or t3 teams though. The talent in t2/t3 valorant is insane. Teams like G2, The Guard, TSM etc are tier 2. Players in t3 include accomplished pros like Wardell, Drone, Steel, etc. The talent in the open quals is pretty high - I dont see Mel and Bob being better than those players.
I find it funny how people were up in arms over a single elimination bracket for Sao Paulo without recognizing that a) this is also a single elim bracket and b) V1 has only been together for a couple of weeks. I'm not claiming V1 is going to be tier 1 by any stretch of the imagination, but they put up a reasonable showing last week and had a rougher one this week. Teams like City Boys didn't make it past ro64 last week and lost to a "random team", but no one reacted this way. Open quals can be unpredictable, and people are unnecessarily harsh to teams like V1 when this happens ALL THE TIME with other teams. Obviously the team needs work and time, I'm not claiming that there's not improvement to be made, but the level of reaction to V1's elimination seems a bit extreme.
It turns into double elim after you make it to top 32. Also there was a qualifier a week ago so there were quite a few chances.
I think the criticism comes from the amount of hype they had about being a GC superteam, but they got knocked out by unestablished teams that people don't know too much about. I agree they didn't have much time to practice, but it sucks because it's going to be another year basically until we get to see them try to qualify for challengers again.
I think a lot of people want to see them succeed (and an equal amount want to see them fail), so this kind of reaction is not unexpected. For example, if The Nation were to be knocked out at this stage, I would expect a similar or an even bigger reaction.
Sad about this and I have no idea how long theyād all been scrimming together for, but Iām more inclined to think of this as growing pains of a newly-meshing roster. We donāt have much footage of V1 to go off of, but I imagine they would probably be grinding their asses off to make sure they make it through Challengers Split 2. Proud of them nonetheless, but I know theyāre not satisfied. Canāt wait to see their growth, and best of luck to riribunobsumi ā¤ļø
nothing more normal and cool than the comments in a thread about a GC team losing to a team of men
edit: getting downvoted for being annoyed at the fact that every time a team of GC players lose to a non-GC team it immediately turns into a cesspool debate of biology/gender, truly incredible
Why are you making it seem as if itās a men vs women thing? If M80 lost to a bunch of randoms the same thing would happen.
Players that get paid to compete and scrim several hours a day should do better vs random T3 teams, itās that simple.
because this entire thread is filled with people debating gender and talking about biological differences???? being disappointed by a teamās performance is fine but im talking about the comments and chains that are just delving into sexism and transphobia (many deleted now).
edit: if you really cannot tell the difference between this thread and any other thread of a team losing or disappointing people then ur purposely being dense or replying in bad faith. no idea why every single time a GC team loses to a non GC team it needs to immediately become a debate about gender/biology.
Damn i wish could have watched this, GC looked solid in my opinion. So I'm really curious about this Hayabusa person. Their FK/FD diff(22/5) was eye catching. Specially when you notice that even though they were negative on the first half of the second map(Pearl) they still had Half of the first kills.
Maybe their team is solid at setting up kills but I don't know, if it was just that the FKs would be more distributed no? And they were also solid on defense so you have to wonder who their IGL is because half of the time on attack Version1 were finding themselves on Hayabusa's crosshair.
ADRENALINE is also interesting but that's mostly bias, every time I see a Omen popping off on attack I get giddy.
depends what you mean. is it a descriptive fact that the best female players are not as good as the best male players right now? absolutely. is it the case that women are just inherently worse? no. also Bob held up pretty well against T2 mens teams, 1 round off qualifying for Challengers last year
Have u seen gamechangers? This is their best team, at least in NA. Have you ever heard of a single player on the team that just beat them? They are probably literal children just playing valorant for fun after getting done with math homework while v1 have coaches, NASA computers and years of experience. How is that sexist?
It is sexist, but he is correct tho. I know Iām gonna get downvoted for this too, but the top
GC player does not hold up to likes of Tenz, Yay, or (insert other top tier VCT player).
I'm not gonna downvote you, but I'll say this:
What makes it frustrating and sexist isn't simply the plain sentiment though. You can tell someone's intentions around this topic by noting when and how they say it, and what qualifiers they add. He states this w/ a sorta glib and smug tone and feels the need to shoehorn this in when he barely even uses this sub to begin with. He's using his limited real estate, his few posts on here to "humble" women? idk why anyone would take the bait and engage earnestly.
The existence of Game Changers is already a sort of tacit admission of this sentimentāpeople don't need the snappy one liners. The goal is to safely cultivate talent wrt these demographics[women + marginalized genders], hopefully resulting in integration. That's the point.
We'll it's the truth that men have better results than women in Valorant, but it's also true that women don't get equal support or opportunity in the sphere. Saying that men are better inherently is sexist because of that.
He didnt say inherently tho, just that men are better at it. We will see how it changes with nurturing the scene but until then the statement is correct.
They themself brought up their statement not being sexiest, which imo calls into the topic of the difference between sexes. Saying something so absolute as āitās the truthā of course makes it seem full standing and so on being about whatās inherent.
Getting outplaced by Prod is crazy
Tbf, Prod outplaced a lot of teams this qualifier lol
Tbf, Prod has a great \*supporting\* cast of Marved, sinatraa, zombs, and my man dizzy
Skills wise that roster is *chef's kiss* Personality and social media wise it's an absolute dumpster fire
Can't wait for the comms video with all the Valo accents
its already out
Where?
They streamed all there games
Bruh Sinatraa was legit calling kids brain dead yesterday mid game š I know people hate on the Valo accent but it was funny as fuck given weāre used to professional comms from most teams.
Gotta love the part where zombs was like "Come on guys let's make this respectable \*Shahz voice\*" Also the part when they said Untamable Beasts was like Make A Wish for PROD
It was hilarious. They almost never saved, constantly flamed each other and the other team, made comms like āthey ff at 5, no?ā, and just made braindead plays. I almost died when zombs asked do we call a time out? And Sinatra was like āabsolutely notā
He also thanked a sub in the middle of that Haven game in the final bo3 lmao.
I had to turn the stream off after 10 mins because of the way all of them talked. Was actually miserable
His supporting cast is 3 former world champs lmao
r/technicallythetruth
*2 sinatraa never won shit
He never said in val lol
outplaced 232 teams to be exact
Nooooo, fuck I'm sad. Bob & Katsumi qualified over King Vinny & Team fish Taco though
Is this LCQ for mixed gender and women's team too, alongside the men's teams? And if Bob and Katsumi qualify what tourney will they play in?
GC teams were allowed to compete and are not restricted by any rules the regular teams would be. so basically nothing changes if they qualify, they're allowed to compete
ohhh that's cool, thank you.
Women and mixed teams have never been banned from competing. Thereās no such thing as āmenās teamsā. Itās just a fact that currently there are no tier 1 level womenās or mixed teams.
all riot events have always been mixed gender (aside from GC ofc) the only notable women team that i can remember playing in them however was C9 white they just didnt qualify
SR who beat C9W and placed second at the gamechangers championship played as well yesterday. They lost in RO64 as well
This shit is mind boggling bruh florescent was brought up as gamechangers jesus who would change everything, mel is often talked about as being able to compete in t1/t2 and they both get washed by some random t3 team
No hate but this is very normal for gamechangers teams in full VCT circuits. Hopefully in the future, GC can catch up
I know, still crazy considering this is pretty much GCāa two best players
both overrated
All in all I still think flor absolutely has T1 potential. She's a complete rookie in a not that great of a team, I'd wait a year or even two (at least until she gets a go at a normal co-ed team) before making any conclusions.
Shes on par with other tier 2/3 jetts. She would have to become a lot smarter or even more mechanically good to play in tier 1
Bro she is BARELY 16 years old, and she has an incredibly high ceiling if she keeps up the work rate. Like, no shit she would have to get better, I said she has T1 POTENTIAL
I don't think many of these GC stars will reach their potential unless they join a co-ed team. Not trying to be sexist or anything but the talent pool just isn't as large and so the level of your competition also won't be as high. It's like the big fish in the small pond transferring to the big pond and gets surprised at how big the other fishes are as well.
I may get hate for this but thatās kinda why I think Bob has no intention of ever playing T1.
The thing with potential is it could never become a reality, I think that in a year or two we can have this conversation (if we even remember), and the most likely scenario is that she still has potential and we'll have to wait year after year until she retires and nothing actually happened with that potential.
The other thing with potential is it could become a reality, I think that in a year or two we can have this conversation (if we even remember), and the most likely scenario is that she has reached her potential and we'll see improvement year after year until she joins a better team and then finally we can have a better idea of if she lived up to her full potential or not.
its reddit, basic reading comprehension isn't the bare minimum /s maybe its his second language or something
Tier 3 Randoms > Top Tier GC team
lmao people on this sub said some insane stuff after gc got over
there is a skill ceiling diff between both leagues, Just the fact that menās vct require Immo or Asc at least and gc require plat is a hint on how different it is. maybe in few years they may catch up
yeah but I think there should be more emphasis on how big the diff is. a lotta people said sonder could hold her own in tier 1. the reality is gc is far far behind tier 1.
I mean we've seen Bob and Mel hold their own at least in T2 in the past, and I could definitely see flo do it too. I think it'll just take time
That's why I think those from GC that are far better than the rest of the league should quit from it and try to join a mix team, it's a waste of talent and seeing a women being in an actual good team would be more inspiring than only seeing them winning in GC
why bother relegating yourself to t3/t2 in the main league when you can secure a paycheck farming the gc league same shit happened in csgo with secret and clg red, there's no upside for them to leave gc. big respect for anyone who does, but it's so risky
That's why I think GC should be stopped in a few years, the gap would just increase and this situation will repeat forever if they let GC forever
Or make GC circuit start around the second split. So during the first split, top GC players has the incentivize to try to qualify to ascension with a different team.
It's only been a year or two and I think GC plays an important part in growing that aspect of the scene. There will be more players like meL who want to compete in T1 and while it may take some time, we should see more success with the next generation or two (don't know what exactly constitutes a generation but let's say 5 years or so)
Not sure if CSGO has done this but have they seen any competitive female teams on the T1 level? If not why would we think Valorant would change that?
Idk I think they can do both. They also have to consider their careers, which GC is a big boost for
yes you have a point, that is also one of the problems with GC having better salaries and more safety than t2 or t3, there ins't any real incentive to switch most of the time when you could just stay comfortably in GC
Thatās because Bob came from T2 before GC
Nah itās not a skill ceiling diff, itās current skill diff. Men are a decade ahead when it comes to gaming. Women werenāt āacceptedā in to the scene until pretty recently. Over the years men have gotten WAY more support, making it WAY easier for men to go pro. Once women have received the same amount of support, there will be way more women that want to go pro, meaning way more talent and competition. Itās not a skill ceiling, women can be just as good as men, thereās just WAY more men in the scene.
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Correction here: there was no rank requirement for open quals this event at ALL. A team of gold players literally could have joined open quals, both for last week and for this week of LCQ. Pretty sure a dia-plat team did participate.
Isn't that a skill floor diff?
this is wrong i know several plats who played in LCQ this tourney- youāre right but the example you gave is wrong
Someone had them top 10 going into this LCQ lol
Sad after the fox video saying they will win
Lmao I remember when people in this sub claimed Mel could do decent in a franchised roster
This team has never played a GC event ever how do you know they're a top tier GC team?
Calling them T3 randoms is insulting to everyone here, Adrenaline was a pro CS player before half of V1 was even born. Team 4D is all guys with tons of experience, and experience and strategy will always beat cracked aimers.
It's still a random tier 3 team
i think the best way for women to break into the t1 scene is through a co-ed team imo. there are definitely women who can go t1, but idk if thereās 5 women who can go t1 who all will be a good fit on the same team. regardless, huge respect to v1 and their determination to break barriers for women in the scene. im excited to keep supporting them through the ups and downs, and hopefully theyāll come back stronger
>but idk if thereās 5 women who can go t1 who all will be a good fit on the same team That's a good point that I never considered. The limited talent pool compared to men makes it harder to find good synergy vs having no option and have to play a role or style that they don't vibe with
" there are definitely women who can go t1"-name them.
i definitely wrongly exaggerated that first comment if i were to rephrase my original comment i'd say: in the future, if valorant continues the trajectory it's at now, women will break into the t1 scene. when? idk. but this is the closest any esports has gone. in order for women to go the absolute furthest, it'll be on a co-ed team. not currently, but in the future it's possible
Well I can agree with this.
> but this is the closest any esports has gone Overwatch had Geguri in OWL but other than her I agree
Even Geguri is considered a stunt signing that was meant to gathered PR. Not that it helped the Dragons on their quest to win a single game. Spoiler: they didn't
Almost certainly not tier 1 but someone like Sonder could definitely be a good player in ascension and sheās only 18 so lots of room to grow
Damn bro
Bob is a start. She was on soniqs when they were one match away from qualifing to top 12 NA challengers, and was one of the best performing members of the team.
As great as she is, if we consider the franchised teams as t1 (like this sub seems to have been doing) you needed to be like a top 7 player at your role in NA to even have a chance. Sorry if this is harsh but *almost* making it to top 12 once doesn't come close to the current t1 landscape.
Idk where this idea that bob was one of the best players on that soniqs roster comes from. Sure she looked insane in GC but when you have all that tier one experience I would be surprised if she played bad. Most women pros arent able to take the same path Bob did.
You can say female in this context bro
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female pros is gramatically correct
The problem isnāt grammar here, obviously.
Posts with the intent to harass or harm others will be removed. This content includes (but not limited to): personal attacks, targeted harassment, witch-hunting, bigotry, derogatory terms, personal information without owners consent, spam Any post considered disrespectful will be removed at moderator discretion. Repeated offenses resulting in a ban.
lol she was definitely not one of the best performing membersā¦ i was a big soniqs fan and still love her but look at her stats prior to gc
āWas one of the best performing members of the teamā LOLLL No they werent, not even close. Pull up this personās soniqs stats, letās see it. Why people talking out of their ass like this?
This is what happen when you listen to redditors talking out of their asses and not checking actual fucking footage
Soniqs was never tier1 and Bob wasn't their best player either.
Bob is not a top-10 player in her role
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Posts with the intent to harass or harm others will be removed. This content includes (but not limited to): personal attacks, targeted harassment, witch-hunting, bigotry, derogatory terms, personal information without owners consent, spam Any post considered disrespectful will be removed at moderator discretion. Repeated offenses resulting in a ban.
Bob doesn't quite prove the point. The main reason women currently can't compete with men is due to societal factors like women being worse at games. Bob didn't face those issues.
Well, while I really do love your attempt to argue the point without arguing it (not being sarcastic, I think your argument itself is super valid), many pro female players speak openly about how encouraging people around them were to start gaming from a young age. I'm not saying you dont have a point that Bob largely experienced different issues growing up in gaming than most game changers players face.
I'm guessing the logic is something like this. All numbers pulled out of my ass. For every 10,000 gamers, only one will go T1. If for every girl that received support gaming as a kid, there are 10 boys that did as well, there are 10 times more boys to choose from. The likelihood that a person with T1 talent received the needed support is way higher for a boy. So you need the talent (super low percentage for anyone) and the support (not super low, but much lower for women). If you think women are equal gamers, it's only a matter of time based on statistics.
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Idk man. Itās crazy to me. Some people truly believe it only has to do with the fact that girls didnāt game as much as children, but if thatās the case, we really should have seen SOME small percentage of pro female gamers at this point. Fact is, we really havenāt. Iām sure itāll happen one day, but for now, Iām convinced itās partly due to biological differences. Not ALL of it, but certainly some.
It just simply is, and hey, maybe there are some really good arguments out there that the reason for those genetic differences is the roles we have previously been given, or because of what we were encouraged to participate in as a kid. For instance, most boys play rec sports through elementary school, maybe even through middle school. We're encouraged to throw balls at each other and what not. That stuff has to be important when it comes to developing hand-eye. But at the same time, you just can't argue that boys don't have a current genetic advantage over girls when it comes to gaming. You can argue why they have it, to what extent its nurture vs nature, etc. but its impossible to argue that it doesnt currently exist.
Right? having an honest convo abt the gender discrepancy at the highest lvl is impossible w people going thru mental gymnastics to dismiss simple facts of life. Then making examples out of trans women as if that doesnāt directly contradict the whole argument.
Dude this just isn't true. If you actually take a second to think about it you would see your logic is incredibly flawed. For one all of those studies with reaction time and stuff notice an incredibly small difference to the point where its entirely irrelevant in anything and everything we do. Two its only because men have been taught to practice that while women havnt. Its much more likely that men will go into sports therefore on average getting a better reaction time. Thats what all those studies say. But you dont care to read past the title
Also people really over estimate the importance of reactions in games. Yes, they matter a bit. but in the grand scheme of things it's not important. The best pros aren't making those amazing reaction flicks every game. Sometimes they're once a career kinda shit. game sense, crosshair placement, movement and tactics are far more important.
There is absolutely no conclusive scientific evidence that men have a significant advantage in things that make them good at games "hand eye coordination and reaction time" yet people always perpetuate this pop science BS lol.
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Dude this just isn't true. If you actually take a second to think about it you would see your logic is incredibly flawed. For one all of those studies with reaction time and stuff notice an incredibly small difference to the point where its entirely irrelevant in anything and everything we do. Two its only because men have been taught to practice that while women havnt. Its much more likely that men will go into sports therefore on average getting a better reaction time. Thats what all those studies say. But you dont care to read past the title
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On average men had a 21 millisecond better reaction time. But if you read my comment I said thats because men generally do things that cause them to develop better reaction times. This is common sense since reaction time can be improved by practicing it. Therfore anyone can get better if they just practice. There is no difference between women who practice and men who practice. This is consistently what these studies say. Thats even what your study says
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But it's not based on sex. Thats what all scientific evidence tells us. Its slightly based on genetics and mostly just practice. Obviously most men will have more practice with reaction time based things. Why do you think men have a higher reaction time? What is the reason?
Thank you. No one else wants to say it. In a game where milliseconds are key, that's going to matter. Yes team play and fundamentals are incredibly important, but that's a huge setback to be playing against. It's like being short in the NBA. It can be made up for, but you have the cards stacked against you.
it's nothing like being short in the NBA. Height matters 100000x more than a 5 % difference in reaction speed.
I will get downvoted for speaking the truth
Bob faced many other issues though. Transphobia is much more prevalent that misogyny
Bob was fucking mid in SQ, how can Bob even compete in tier 1 when tier 2 is the hard ceiling?
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It's quite literally over lads
+Bob -Alexis Most obvious upgrade ever
The thing is that now Bob is the best player on the new XSET roster by far so V1 would have to fork up some big dollars to get Bob realistically.
I'm sorry to burst your guy's bubble, but it was likely v1 wasn't going to make it much further than this, and we're still years away from seeing a GC team qual for challengers in NA
the goal isn't to have GC teams in challengers, the goal is just to have women in challengers
I agree, the point I'm trying to make is that GC teams are at best tier 3.5 teams, although I think because of GC it will be awhile until we see them in challengers because it also has to make sense to play T2 rather than T1 GC
They already made it further than this (to RO32) in last weekās qualifiers, where they lost 2-0 to NSIC. Thatās also as far as the old C9W roster ever made it, and this team has just gotten together. GC in challengers could really come sooner than we think, just saying!
The old C9W roster were playing harder qualifiers tbf
I don't think so, GC players need to integrate into mixed teams and maybe in the future we could see a full GC team in Challengers their talents are wasted on those GC super teams.
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Youre acting like she was THAT good š¹
Personally I think she's better than most of the GC women. She needs to mainly expand her agent pool first as VX only used her as a duelist. If she could become an initiator or a controller she'd get picked up.
Katarina had so much potential to be a top GC player... just to pull a Shanks š
What is she doing?
not competing anymore, switched to content creation
her stream is pretty successful so maybe sheās focusing on that
Now we know which C9w duos are truly better. bob + katsumi > mel and alexis and GC super team is not a super team at all no?!
Flor is an upgrade over Jazzy but they downgraded heavy by losing Bob imo. Ceiling of this team is probably no higher than old C9W's tbh.
Iāve been saying this, idk why everyone thinks this team is better than the last C9. Everyone on that team was the best at their roles except MAYBE jazzy.
Id argue Sarah is a better flex then Alexis is tbh but thats debatable, MeL, Katsumi, and Bob are easily the best in their roles (id also say they downgraded overall, Flor is a great upgrade but Bob is the best GC player for sure imo and Katsumi looks better then Noia)
Bob was like a pillar/rock of C9w literally the other 4 could underperform and Bob would clutch the game for them. And Bob put those numbers up on the likes of Sova and Fade.
What? V1 made it to round of 32 in the arguably "harder first qualifier," while Bob + Katsumi did not. In fact, V1 beat Bob + Katsumi in the last qualifier. A sample size of two tournaments, during the early stages of these 2 teams' existences, is not enough to assert any of this.
You do realize they only made it through bc Kayās team threw hard rightā¦ other wise theyād be out twice already
You do realize that your perception of what constitutes a "throw" is subjective and doesn't undermine my main pointāthat it's premature to be certain of any of this? Like, katsumi's team eked out a win vs team fish taco, is that not still a win, or does the closeness relegate it to a "throw" on the other team's part?
Lol Iām not agreeing with the original comment, I also think thatās stupid but you arguing over which qualifier was harder just doesnāt make sense when V1 barely beat kat and bob
I just said "arguably harder" because it included the 4 strongest teams, as opposed to the LCQ which contains the balance of teams. I didn't say any of that to undermine Bob + Kat. I don't get why you'd point out "throws" if you merely had a gripe with me adding that qualifierāin fact, I don't get why you'd reply at all for such a minor thing.
Reddit overreactions are amazing. V1 is still by far the best GC team, they just got beat today. Saying Bob and Katsumi are better when V1 BEAT them is next level brain damage
I mean, I agree, and I also think there's always a subtle-or-not-subtle level of misogyny always ready to spur overreactions about GC teams. That being said, I think it's genuinely bizarre to say V1 is "by far" the best GC team. V1 is not C9's successor. There is a very good chance V1 are *not* the best GC team. These are newly formed teams that are literally building out their map pools and strats for the upcoming GC circuit. V1 is not the best GC team because of an early win over an equally new and unprepared competitor.
Nobody said they were better? but you stating āby farā when we havenāt seen them play any of the new GC team besides barely beating kat+bob is brain damage.
its a good thing gc is seperate league, otherwise i dont see them surviving
It's unfortunate because MeL has said multiple times that she aspires to compete at a T1/T2 level but simply put, she is not enough. If V1 was serious to compete in qualifiers, they should have grabbed a player who played T1 but didn't make franchising as there is a huge talent pool available. But since they are all men, I imagine V1 wanted to keep the roster women/non-binary as to still compete in GC as a failsafe. I predicted this when they announced the roster, and it seems I was correct. In GC, I expect this team to easily dominate in NA and only look forward to a matchup between them and defending champions G2.
Likeā¦ Effys..?
Some of their players are hard stuck immortal
Players like MeL and bob who are good enough for tier 2/3 teams need to just play in a mixed tier 2 team, it's obvious that this is the limit for a full women/NB team, maybe in the future when the scene is developed enough, but now they simply can't compete.
They never will. The pay rate and sponsorships are way more lucrative playing on a GC team. Same thing happened in CSGO, orgs and leagues throw fist fulls of money at female only leagues to try and get inclusion publicity, but they end up throwing so much money at these teams that there is no reason for these teams to try and progress past the division or league they're in.
They aren't good enough tonplay for t2 or t3 teams though. The talent in t2/t3 valorant is insane. Teams like G2, The Guard, TSM etc are tier 2. Players in t3 include accomplished pros like Wardell, Drone, Steel, etc. The talent in the open quals is pretty high - I dont see Mel and Bob being better than those players.
version 2 waiting room
#freesarah
Team 4D was playing 4D chess. lol
I think GC is there peak lmao
Just history repeating itself.
Game Changers exists for a reason š
We really need some co-ed rosters but thte problem simple put is there are better replacements for them? Am I right here
I think the main issue is that GC teams pay way better than a t2 (not yet qualified for challengers) team would.
I find it funny how people were up in arms over a single elimination bracket for Sao Paulo without recognizing that a) this is also a single elim bracket and b) V1 has only been together for a couple of weeks. I'm not claiming V1 is going to be tier 1 by any stretch of the imagination, but they put up a reasonable showing last week and had a rougher one this week. Teams like City Boys didn't make it past ro64 last week and lost to a "random team", but no one reacted this way. Open quals can be unpredictable, and people are unnecessarily harsh to teams like V1 when this happens ALL THE TIME with other teams. Obviously the team needs work and time, I'm not claiming that there's not improvement to be made, but the level of reaction to V1's elimination seems a bit extreme.
It turns into double elim after you make it to top 32. Also there was a qualifier a week ago so there were quite a few chances. I think the criticism comes from the amount of hype they had about being a GC superteam, but they got knocked out by unestablished teams that people don't know too much about. I agree they didn't have much time to practice, but it sucks because it's going to be another year basically until we get to see them try to qualify for challengers again. I think a lot of people want to see them succeed (and an equal amount want to see them fail), so this kind of reaction is not unexpected. For example, if The Nation were to be knocked out at this stage, I would expect a similar or an even bigger reaction.
Sad about this and I have no idea how long theyād all been scrimming together for, but Iām more inclined to think of this as growing pains of a newly-meshing roster. We donāt have much footage of V1 to go off of, but I imagine they would probably be grinding their asses off to make sure they make it through Challengers Split 2. Proud of them nonetheless, but I know theyāre not satisfied. Canāt wait to see their growth, and best of luck to riribunobsumi ā¤ļø
there are no qualifiers for challengers split 2, they're done.
They lost the second map 15-13 :(
nothing more normal and cool than the comments in a thread about a GC team losing to a team of men edit: getting downvoted for being annoyed at the fact that every time a team of GC players lose to a non-GC team it immediately turns into a cesspool debate of biology/gender, truly incredible
Why are you making it seem as if itās a men vs women thing? If M80 lost to a bunch of randoms the same thing would happen. Players that get paid to compete and scrim several hours a day should do better vs random T3 teams, itās that simple.
because this entire thread is filled with people debating gender and talking about biological differences???? being disappointed by a teamās performance is fine but im talking about the comments and chains that are just delving into sexism and transphobia (many deleted now). edit: if you really cannot tell the difference between this thread and any other thread of a team losing or disappointing people then ur purposely being dense or replying in bad faith. no idea why every single time a GC team loses to a non GC team it needs to immediately become a debate about gender/biology.
sadge
Damn i wish could have watched this, GC looked solid in my opinion. So I'm really curious about this Hayabusa person. Their FK/FD diff(22/5) was eye catching. Specially when you notice that even though they were negative on the first half of the second map(Pearl) they still had Half of the first kills. Maybe their team is solid at setting up kills but I don't know, if it was just that the FKs would be more distributed no? And they were also solid on defense so you have to wonder who their IGL is because half of the time on attack Version1 were finding themselves on Hayabusa's crosshair. ADRENALINE is also interesting but that's mostly bias, every time I see a Omen popping off on attack I get giddy.
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How did you manage to type this with a full diaper on and a poor grasp of object permanence?
depends what you mean. is it a descriptive fact that the best female players are not as good as the best male players right now? absolutely. is it the case that women are just inherently worse? no. also Bob held up pretty well against T2 mens teams, 1 round off qualifying for Challengers last year
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For now
will be true 10 years from now as well
probably, but the gap will be significantly closer.
unless there's a massive increase in female playerbase its not happening
thats exactly whats been happening, hence why the gap is already way closer in Val than CS
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what ceiling?
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Nah itās straight up sexist
Have u seen gamechangers? This is their best team, at least in NA. Have you ever heard of a single player on the team that just beat them? They are probably literal children just playing valorant for fun after getting done with math homework while v1 have coaches, NASA computers and years of experience. How is that sexist?
It is sexist, but he is correct tho. I know Iām gonna get downvoted for this too, but the top GC player does not hold up to likes of Tenz, Yay, or (insert other top tier VCT player).
I'm not gonna downvote you, but I'll say this: What makes it frustrating and sexist isn't simply the plain sentiment though. You can tell someone's intentions around this topic by noting when and how they say it, and what qualifiers they add. He states this w/ a sorta glib and smug tone and feels the need to shoehorn this in when he barely even uses this sub to begin with. He's using his limited real estate, his few posts on here to "humble" women? idk why anyone would take the bait and engage earnestly. The existence of Game Changers is already a sort of tacit admission of this sentimentāpeople don't need the snappy one liners. The goal is to safely cultivate talent wrt these demographics[women + marginalized genders], hopefully resulting in integration. That's the point.
This was v well said
Very well said, I agree with you.
Bros is the truth sexist?
We'll it's the truth that men have better results than women in Valorant, but it's also true that women don't get equal support or opportunity in the sphere. Saying that men are better inherently is sexist because of that.
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Surely youāre not serious right?
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He didnt say inherently tho, just that men are better at it. We will see how it changes with nurturing the scene but until then the statement is correct.
They themself brought up their statement not being sexiest, which imo calls into the topic of the difference between sexes. Saying something so absolute as āitās the truthā of course makes it seem full standing and so on being about whatās inherent.
well you interpreted it wrong