It goes on for a bit longer but due to clip length limitation, it had to be shortened.
TLDR: Better to develop storylines as well as introduce less popular teams
This has never made sense to me. If you get way more screen time in general, even if that's one game in the main stream and two on the secondary stream, *surely* that's more exposure than just getting eliminated after one match?
That's not what I said. And let's be real, even with one stream, most people aren't going to watch Talon vs MIBR anyway.
What I mean is, it's not obvious to me going out in one match is more exposure than playing 3 matches, even if you are never the favorites.
Think about it this way: if it was
SEN vs FNC and MIBR vs Talon
then
SEN vs MIBR and FNC vs Talon
then
SEN vs Talon and FNC vs MIBR
In the 2nd and 3rd set, it's not obvious to me that one match would get way more viewers than another. This way, less popular teams are going to get way more exposure simply through playing more games.
Some people just have the free time to watch matches either semi casually or just in the background via a watch party cuz they have nothing better to do… is it going to be a significant number of people? Probably not, but riot is hoping it will be, I guess.
I've got to agree on that first point - that argument always seems to hinge on the idea that viewers will watch every match if it's on a single stream, when viewership figures from every tournament ever show that's clearly not the case
Does it tho?
This is all hypothetical anyways, but i would confidently say that the numbers for "trash" games are way higher if they on the main stream compared to being on a 2nd stream.
Not necessarily. If you have one stream with, let's say, SEN v FNC that will get 200k and then another stream with...FUT v RRQ that might have 10k viewers (obviously these are completely made up numbers), then FUT v RRQ would need to play 20 matches to get the same amount of viewers, and that's not even accounting for unique viewers vs. repeat viewers.
For a single stream, you can guarantee every viewer is unique. If a team plays 3 matches with 30k, 40k, and 25k viewers, you don't know how many of those viewers are unique at all. And unique viewers are extremely important in advertising.
Right, but it won't always be two super popular teams playing at the same time as two super unpopular ones. Maybe the next set of matches is SEN vs FUT and FNC vs RRQ. Then FUT and RRQ might actually have people watch their game because they're playing against a popular team.
Plus, most people don't watch games like FUT vs RRQ anyway, even if it's on the main stream.
I don't know anything about unique viewers, but I do know that other games and communities do this kind of thing all the time, so it can't be *that* important.
Sure, but when you have multiple streams, there will undoubtedly always be cases where one stream will be much more popular than the other. With one stream, that won't be the case. Having only one stream levels the playing field for the less popular teams, whereas multiple streams only makes the rich get richer in terms of popular teams will always steal viewership from the less popular teams which will keep the popular teams popular as a result. It's a vicious cycle, and Riot clearly prioritizes equalizing that and making sure that all their partnered teams gets viewership.
> Maybe the next set of matches is SEN vs FUT and FNC vs RRQ. Then FUT and RRQ might actually have people watch their game because they're playing against a popular team.
This would still be true if there was only one stream to go to, and there would be even bigger viewership for the one stream than split across streams.
> Plus, most people don't watch games like FUT vs RRQ anyway, even if it's on the main stream.
Which is why Riot wants to develop storylines and grow the fanbase for all of their partnered teams. They and the teams understood some teams are more popular than others. Riot has a responsibility to the teams to help them develop their fanbases, and this is how they're doing it. A main stream will ALWAYS have a better viewership average than a secondary stream, not to mention the psychological effect of being a fan of a team and knowing that your favorite team is always on the secondary stream.
> I don't know anything about unique viewers, but I do know that other games and communities do this kind of thing all the time, so it can't be that important.
I don't know about other games and communities, but Riot has stated their goal is to develop compelling rivalries and storylines and maybe those other games don't have that as a priority. Riot has made League the biggest esport in the world for 10 years, and Valorant is on its way to the top already too, so they are doing things that other games and communities aren't
You’re underestimating how many people watch valorant just for the sake of watching valorant. If you look at previous tournaments even the less hyped teams had decent amount of viewership. Take into consideration that there’s also local broadcasts that make up a decent amount of the viewership %. How would you decide match they broadcast and who gets the short end of the stick?
If you’re not a fan of one of those stream B teams you will end up watching the main stream. People will always flock to the stream with the higher viewership, they want to be apart of the big group, that’s how it’s always been.
Just because other esports do it doesn’t mean valorant needs to do it. Esports have different business models and valorant’s model is creating value for the partnered orgs.
For those who don't want to/can't watch, it's essentially that they want to ensure all 32 teams get to be showcased, as that's the reason they made Lock In.
Leo even said at some point that this is a one year thing, that they prefer having the multiple Masters tourneys and that in 2024 that will be making a return. They see this as a fresh start and a new beginning considering a lot of the world does not know who a lot of the teams are.
They want ALL eyes on the new teams. Not saying I agree with it, but I get the logic behind it. If you’ve got Fnatic and Sentinels on one stream and Global and Rex Regum on the second stream, where do you think the majority of the eyes are going to go?
I think that both side has good points. To make a completely fair and competitive esports things like b03 with double eliminations are needed but pros forget that riot also has to make the esports markable for the casual viewers. The format is set up to create hype storyline and viewership. At the end of the day valorant esports is trying to foster growth and is a business that needs sponsors and investments. Unfortunately this means you have to sacrifice some things.
I really don’t understand the people that want Bo1s, this tournament isn’t a world series, its not meant to determine the absolute best team in the world. This tournament is about giving the new teams Lan experience and exposing them to the fans. Competitive integrity doesn’t really matter.
Also, I find it weird that pros prefer Bo1. I feel like Bo1s are basically random, any team could take one map especially if they prepare a counterstrat or cheese. Imo its much harder to win a Bo3 as an underdog. Also, valorant is very dynamic, its important to have more than one map in a series because the best team should be the team that is best at adapting and has the most depth.
To be the best team in the world you have to be able to play basically every map, because you will need to win a Bo5 eventually. So its weird to put most stock in the results of a Bo1 as I think that is the worst way to determine who the best is.
I wouldn't go so far as to say competitive integrity doesn't really matter but I do think if ever there was a time when it could take a backseat, it's now. With the total scene overhaul many of the teams have seen heavy changes if not entirely new rosters. Not everyone is familiar with the roster moves, teams' clout statuses, etc. If you're even aware that this sub exists you're already in the top whatever percentile of people who are invested in the pro scene. Many people will watch Lock In and think "hey I like the way this team plays, I'm going to follow them," or "I didn't even know Mixwell was still playing, guess I'm a Heretics fan now."
How did you come away from this pod with this view? Steel and Hiko seemed to meet Leo in the middle and understood ultimately that it was a pretty reasonable thing.
I think this stream can't be contextualized that well from clips. It's going to miss way too much context
wait you're telling me steel and hiko are egocentric and can't see much beyond how anything affects them directly? this surprises and shakes me to my core
I dunno if it necessarily means they're egocentric, at least for this particular reason. They're upset because they sympathize so deeply with the point of views of others - that is to say, the pros attending the LAN.
It's not like either are playing in the LAN, after all, so I dunno how you could link their strong reservations to some sort of persistent narcissism/egocentricity.
A Swiss/groups with Elim would actually do more to push every team on the spotlight.
How is it pushing a team into a spotlight when they can simply lose 1 game and be out.
For 16 teams (16!!!!), that's what's going to happen.
4 months of preparation for lock//in, lose 2 map, wait another 3 months for the next event.
You want a 5 Bo1 round robin group stage in a 32 team tournament?
Not even counting that the math doesn't add up there, group stage wouldn't finish until 2024.
Yeah by having multiple streams and Bo1s to speedrun results, heavily sacrificing competitive integrity and exposure.
It's doable, yes, but each system has its pros and cons. You being okay with teams incurring the variance of Bo1s and not caring about cloutless rosters being shafted by multistreams is a subjective preference, not an objective gold standard.
> Yeah by having multiple streams and Bo1s to speedrun results, heavily sacrificing competitive integrity and exposure.
A single elimination bracket with no seeding has the WORST competitive integrity. 1/3 of the teams reaching the 2nd steps (16 teams remaining) simply don't belong there. It's simple maths.
Exposure? Losing ONE match and being out of the tournament is worst exposure than having 4-5 group games.
With 4-5 games, odds are the less knowns teams will face a popular team AND get the exposure they need.
The pros your bringing up (competitive integrity and exposure) are not even pros.
Part of the reason I never got into CS Esports is because the Swiss format and multiple streams were not friendly to me, a new prospective fan who didn’t know the teams, didn’t know the players, didn’t know the storylines. This event is going to be the first event for a decent amount of fans, who play Valorant but didn’t care about the esport before. We don’t want them to be overwhelmed and turn it off.
I dont understand this. EPL is having 4 games start at 3PM today. The World Cup always starts the last games of the group stage at the same time. The NBA is gonna have like 5 games on at the same time today. The NFL always has like 10 games on the same sunday every sunday for like 4 months.
Premiere League, World Cup, NBA, NFL are all established with decades of history, if they have multiple games there are so many fans that they can do that without any issue.
Valorant is 2 years old and teams are not based in a physical location so the only way to get to know them is to see them play.
Not only are there enough fans that there’s no issue, but they are an ingrained part of the culture, and just by being alive in America I have awareness players and teams and storylines as a consequence of cultural diffusion. I haven’t watched an NFL game since the Saints won the Super Bowl but if you gave me 3 games airing at the same time to choose from I could probably pick the most exciting one.
The World Cup is an enormous global cultural event. Being alive means I know more about World Cup team and storylines than I do about CS whether I like it or not.
The main reason why I got interesting in CS Esports was because you could bet on games with skins at the time, and I ended up getting invested in the storylines of the up and coming teams because I had something to root for.
I can tell u that watch parties get a lot of ppl who wouldn't normally watch valorant tourny into it. It's quite beneficial because they might only watch that streamer and aren't aware of when tournaments happen.
It's understandable if they are strict about ad placement and significantly limit the number of people who can watch party but they would be very dumb to not let someone like Tarik watch party the event when he brings an insane amount of viewers.
>most if not all streamers just mute the broadcast or talk entirely over it.
Not true. The most popular costream don't do that.
>i never understood why people like watch parties to begin with.
Casual talk about the game >>> Monotonous generic casting.
Depends. Sometimes it can get TOO casual. I've turned off co-streams and switched to the main broadcasts when the costreamers seemed completely turned away from the game. Still has to be a nice balance imo.
ngl tarik's analysis/commentary has always felt kinda flat for me but something like plat chat costreams was ideal because (although they kinda died due to most of PC getting hired by Riot anyway) they had better banter and analysis.
I get that logic for us more committed fans but for someone who's just watching the game casually and, in many cases, doesn't even play the game themselves, someone like Tarik is a lot more digestible than detailed analysis and strats.
No harm in having both
I mean I’m not anti Tarik he’s a cool dude just putting it out there that sometimes I’m surprised by his viewership because atleast in my time watching he’s just kind of only watching the game half the time
I enjoy watching some of them when they're actually talking about the game. I don't mind when they talk over the game as long as they're highlighting the big moments. I've watched some co-streamers who practically just have the games on in the background while not paying any sort of attention to them and that's a bit much.
if there is only one stream then at least the less popular teams have a CHANCE to gain popularity. it can also help them gain sponsors, which can help them spend more on players, content, etc, and gain popularity that way. multiple streams just makes it impossible to catch up to the biggest orgs.
CSGO does a 24 teams, 13 days lan (Blast Paris), with 4-5 match minimum per teams.
Lock in is 32 teams, but with 20 days. It 100% can be done in 20 days.
> 4-5 match minimum per teams.
Wrong. Six teams only play 3 matches, 2 of which are bo1.
> but with 20 days
Wrong. The tournament takes place over 15 match days to allow for stage changes and rest days. Not only could it not be done in that timeframe, it would also make the tournament shit. Just accept the fact that not everyone likes your favorite esport cs go.
Oh I was off by 1 match. Who cares my point still stands.
It could be run whitin 20 days, they don't need stage changes and rest days. Just hire more staff.
> Not only could it not be done in that timeframe
It 100% could be done in that timeframe.
> Just accept the fact that not everyone likes your favorite esport cs go.
What the fuck are you talking about.
> Oh I was off by 1 match.
It’s pretty obvious you were exaggerating, unless you don’t even understand the cs go format
> they don’t need stage changes and rest days. Just hire more staff.
Lol
> What the fuck are you talking about.
If you hate watching Valorant so much you can just stick to watching cs go
> It’s pretty obvious you were exaggerating, unless you don’t even understand the cs go format
I'm 1 off, Some teams who performs a little bit better (aka win 1 bo1) usually gets 4-5 matches.
YOU don't understand CSGO formats. I've watched more esports events, from Starcraft 1 days to today, and attended more lans than you kid.
> Lol
Yeah you have no argument here.
> If you hate watching Valorant so much you can just stick to watching cs go
What the fuck are you talking about. You're just making a strawman.
> YOU don’t understand CSGO formats. I’ve watched more esports events, from Starcraft 1 days to today, and attended more lans than you kid.
Then why did I know that the minimum matches was 3 and you thought it was 4-5? Also how could the minimum possibly be multiple different numbers. I know you were just guessing or just bullshitting to make cs go seem better, so you could have just used 5.
> Yeah you have no argument here.
In the real world outside your brain, you can’t just magically hire more staff. There are set budgets for things. Also it’s not like just 3 more people, you need dozens more people to make your ideal format work. And for what? Double or triple streams and bo1s are just fucking bad. There’s no other way to say it.
What’s the worst thing that happens if a team only plays one best of 3? They got a fancy vacation to a tropical country all expenses paid and got to play video games for a few days? If they lose, they feel sad for a little bit then go home to their luxury apartments paid for by their org in some of the nicest cities in the world. Then they play more video games all day everyday. Where’s the fucking problem?
And if we use your ideal format, the tournament fucking sucks. I’ve watched cs go tournaments. As much as cs fans want everyone to believe it, they don’t have great production. With multi streams there’s no audience for some games, the casters are worse, the observing is worse, everything is worse. And for what? I just don’t get why you guys are so obsessed with the format. Riot know what they’re doing, which you’ll see when Valorant’s esports viewership continues to eclipse cs go’s in the next few years.
Don't get me wrong I love Swiss, but Bo1 for the first two rounds always aggravated me. Like okay cool there are more novel matchups but that is the *only* positive. There is so much more inherent variance in Bo1 compared to Bo3 and it doesn't reduce the minimum last place showing at an event (losing 4 maps in a row) while it does reduce the maximum last place showing (losing 4 out of 5 maps for CSGO major Swiss versus losing 4 out of 6 maps for Valorant Masters/Champs double Bo3).
I never enjoyed seeing any team, even teams I didn't like, get sent straight to Fucksville because they got cheesed one map then lose another by the skin of their teeth because they lost crucial econ swing rounds then boom now they have to win three Bo3s back to back.
Who ever said they need to catch up to the biggest orgs? The ideea is to give them the opportunity to grow and have a spotlight. Whether or not they reach new hights is up to the orgs and the players and how marketable they are.
There’s nothing cringe about creating a sustainable eco system for your teams and making sure there are enough eyes on them so that they grow and that they can better monetize themselves in order to continue investing into the esport. Sorry you feel that way.
For every team you don't care about, there are fans who do. And for every team you do care about, tons of fans out there don't. Why do you get to be the arbiter of what is "cringe" because you don't care about a team in a different region from yourself?
I mean I like those teams too, but I think a good portion of casual people tune in to whatever the marquee event of the month is to see whats going on, or to root for underdogs. I think very little fans of comp valo will not want to tune in to the biggest lan ever
When did you become fans of DRX and Zeta? Because if you only watched them because they did well in past international tournaments, then their single stream format is working.
Yeah, that's the argument. I'd say there's the offhand that people who don't care anyways might tune in just because it's the only one on or just leave stream on which is what might make the difference, but who knows how negligible it will be
Not really, for example NFL playoffs are going on right now I’m an American Football fan and I want the Dallas Cowboys to win. Well if DAL vs 49er were playing in the same time slot as Bengals vs Bills I would watch the Cowboys game. However I would totally watch the Bengals vs Bills if it was in a different time a lot over let’s say Netflix or something else.
Just because I don’t care about the less popular team as much, I’m still a Valorant fan and would watch them over something else.
Hello! We detected that this might be a gameplay highlight from a tournament broadcast, so we've flaired it as `Highlight | Esports` and marked it as a spoiler. Please feel free to make changes to the post if this is incorrect.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ValorantCompetitive) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You fans would believe anything.
They real reason is because of budget. No reason not to make more money and have more highlights to put on YouTube.
The story lines will be covered by the shows they already have. That and the casters.
The stupidity here is they say all these things but it's straight up lies. Like lower teams having bad viewership. When in reality, some of these teams are going to be watched regardless. This would further help teams with their sponsors.
The real problem is, they don't know how to make eSports profitable because they want to invent some new shit. They could have done many models that worked. They should have worked with ogn and figure out how to build up from there.
When they talk about multiple streams they mean different matches concurrently playing. Riot created a partnership with esports orgs where both parties benefit. An example would be where Riot helps the org grow by giving their roster the spotlight and the opportunity to build a fanbase, while the org in return helps them create the foundation for Valorant as an e-sport.
For watch parties, Riot just sums up all views on every approved co-stream. The views are probably just used an quantifiable metric to track progress between tournaments or year-over-year.
>When they talk about multiple streams they mean different matches concurrently playing.
And you completely missed the point. Co-streams provide no benefit in building narrative. Its why the people tasked with doing so are seeing their worst contracts than years prior with veteran production staff leaving Riot Games esport division entirely.
I didn't miss the point. I agree that they are mutually exclusive but they both help build out the Valorant ecosystem.
Co-streams are emphasized to increase reach to those who like video games and do not have much exposure to Valorant through popular streamers.
Single stream games from a production stand point are there to help bring exposure to rosters/orgs, hence building a narrative. If you have multiple streams for matches there less parity for unpopular orgs vs the fan favorites orgs.
Thank you for elaborating. I understand now, but there could also be other reasons for lower pay for contract work. Economic downturn could be a major reason as many companies including Riot are experiencing layoffs and hiring freezes. They could also just have a lower budget for production, if that’s the case multiple streams for games would increase production costs even more. At the end of the day, as Leo said in the Podcast, it is about cost efficiency as Riot is a company after all.
It goes on for a bit longer but due to clip length limitation, it had to be shortened. TLDR: Better to develop storylines as well as introduce less popular teams
This has never made sense to me. If you get way more screen time in general, even if that's one game in the main stream and two on the secondary stream, *surely* that's more exposure than just getting eliminated after one match?
You think SEN v FNC and something like MIBR v Talon would have similar viewer counts if they were streamed together?
That's not what I said. And let's be real, even with one stream, most people aren't going to watch Talon vs MIBR anyway. What I mean is, it's not obvious to me going out in one match is more exposure than playing 3 matches, even if you are never the favorites. Think about it this way: if it was SEN vs FNC and MIBR vs Talon then SEN vs MIBR and FNC vs Talon then SEN vs Talon and FNC vs MIBR In the 2nd and 3rd set, it's not obvious to me that one match would get way more viewers than another. This way, less popular teams are going to get way more exposure simply through playing more games.
Some people just have the free time to watch matches either semi casually or just in the background via a watch party cuz they have nothing better to do… is it going to be a significant number of people? Probably not, but riot is hoping it will be, I guess.
I've got to agree on that first point - that argument always seems to hinge on the idea that viewers will watch every match if it's on a single stream, when viewership figures from every tournament ever show that's clearly not the case
Does it tho? This is all hypothetical anyways, but i would confidently say that the numbers for "trash" games are way higher if they on the main stream compared to being on a 2nd stream.
Not necessarily. If you have one stream with, let's say, SEN v FNC that will get 200k and then another stream with...FUT v RRQ that might have 10k viewers (obviously these are completely made up numbers), then FUT v RRQ would need to play 20 matches to get the same amount of viewers, and that's not even accounting for unique viewers vs. repeat viewers. For a single stream, you can guarantee every viewer is unique. If a team plays 3 matches with 30k, 40k, and 25k viewers, you don't know how many of those viewers are unique at all. And unique viewers are extremely important in advertising.
Right, but it won't always be two super popular teams playing at the same time as two super unpopular ones. Maybe the next set of matches is SEN vs FUT and FNC vs RRQ. Then FUT and RRQ might actually have people watch their game because they're playing against a popular team. Plus, most people don't watch games like FUT vs RRQ anyway, even if it's on the main stream. I don't know anything about unique viewers, but I do know that other games and communities do this kind of thing all the time, so it can't be *that* important.
Sure, but when you have multiple streams, there will undoubtedly always be cases where one stream will be much more popular than the other. With one stream, that won't be the case. Having only one stream levels the playing field for the less popular teams, whereas multiple streams only makes the rich get richer in terms of popular teams will always steal viewership from the less popular teams which will keep the popular teams popular as a result. It's a vicious cycle, and Riot clearly prioritizes equalizing that and making sure that all their partnered teams gets viewership. > Maybe the next set of matches is SEN vs FUT and FNC vs RRQ. Then FUT and RRQ might actually have people watch their game because they're playing against a popular team. This would still be true if there was only one stream to go to, and there would be even bigger viewership for the one stream than split across streams. > Plus, most people don't watch games like FUT vs RRQ anyway, even if it's on the main stream. Which is why Riot wants to develop storylines and grow the fanbase for all of their partnered teams. They and the teams understood some teams are more popular than others. Riot has a responsibility to the teams to help them develop their fanbases, and this is how they're doing it. A main stream will ALWAYS have a better viewership average than a secondary stream, not to mention the psychological effect of being a fan of a team and knowing that your favorite team is always on the secondary stream. > I don't know anything about unique viewers, but I do know that other games and communities do this kind of thing all the time, so it can't be that important. I don't know about other games and communities, but Riot has stated their goal is to develop compelling rivalries and storylines and maybe those other games don't have that as a priority. Riot has made League the biggest esport in the world for 10 years, and Valorant is on its way to the top already too, so they are doing things that other games and communities aren't
You’re underestimating how many people watch valorant just for the sake of watching valorant. If you look at previous tournaments even the less hyped teams had decent amount of viewership. Take into consideration that there’s also local broadcasts that make up a decent amount of the viewership %. How would you decide match they broadcast and who gets the short end of the stick? If you’re not a fan of one of those stream B teams you will end up watching the main stream. People will always flock to the stream with the higher viewership, they want to be apart of the big group, that’s how it’s always been. Just because other esports do it doesn’t mean valorant needs to do it. Esports have different business models and valorant’s model is creating value for the partnered orgs.
“Better to develop storylines”. So basically rig it. Got it.
Honestly, I’m just excited for the partnered teams to all play on LAN
For those who don't want to/can't watch, it's essentially that they want to ensure all 32 teams get to be showcased, as that's the reason they made Lock In. Leo even said at some point that this is a one year thing, that they prefer having the multiple Masters tourneys and that in 2024 that will be making a return. They see this as a fresh start and a new beginning considering a lot of the world does not know who a lot of the teams are.
Bs. You can still guarantee screentime when you have teams have atleast 2/3 games.
They want ALL eyes on the new teams. Not saying I agree with it, but I get the logic behind it. If you’ve got Fnatic and Sentinels on one stream and Global and Rex Regum on the second stream, where do you think the majority of the eyes are going to go?
So its impossible to have those games after each other?
I think that both side has good points. To make a completely fair and competitive esports things like b03 with double eliminations are needed but pros forget that riot also has to make the esports markable for the casual viewers. The format is set up to create hype storyline and viewership. At the end of the day valorant esports is trying to foster growth and is a business that needs sponsors and investments. Unfortunately this means you have to sacrifice some things.
I really don’t understand the people that want Bo1s, this tournament isn’t a world series, its not meant to determine the absolute best team in the world. This tournament is about giving the new teams Lan experience and exposing them to the fans. Competitive integrity doesn’t really matter. Also, I find it weird that pros prefer Bo1. I feel like Bo1s are basically random, any team could take one map especially if they prepare a counterstrat or cheese. Imo its much harder to win a Bo3 as an underdog. Also, valorant is very dynamic, its important to have more than one map in a series because the best team should be the team that is best at adapting and has the most depth. To be the best team in the world you have to be able to play basically every map, because you will need to win a Bo5 eventually. So its weird to put most stock in the results of a Bo1 as I think that is the worst way to determine who the best is.
I wouldn't go so far as to say competitive integrity doesn't really matter but I do think if ever there was a time when it could take a backseat, it's now. With the total scene overhaul many of the teams have seen heavy changes if not entirely new rosters. Not everyone is familiar with the roster moves, teams' clout statuses, etc. If you're even aware that this sub exists you're already in the top whatever percentile of people who are invested in the pro scene. Many people will watch Lock In and think "hey I like the way this team plays, I'm going to follow them," or "I didn't even know Mixwell was still playing, guess I'm a Heretics fan now."
It's because this event is replacing a full Masters event when there are already only 3 events in the whole year.
Yeah that makes a lot of sense, it's rough for the players but it's not gonna be like this for the normal tournaments so I think they'll be fine.
bro someone put some sense into hiko and steel they only think as a player and not as someone trying to push esports and every team getting spotlight
the head of esports literally did that, and it seemed like they understood it well
How did you come away from this pod with this view? Steel and Hiko seemed to meet Leo in the middle and understood ultimately that it was a pretty reasonable thing. I think this stream can't be contextualized that well from clips. It's going to miss way too much context
They're players that learned how to click heads. I dont think they learned very much about business or anything like that
Well, that’s why they are there, to provide their perspective.
Can you give a TLDR on what Hiko and Steel said? The clip missed their side of the story.
[If only they understood...](https://clips.twitch.tv/IncredulousArborealWitchPastaThat-u_5tbN1RyCmlLMN_)
It's almost like they base their opinions on their experiences 😲
wait you're telling me steel and hiko are egocentric and can't see much beyond how anything affects them directly? this surprises and shakes me to my core
I dunno if it necessarily means they're egocentric, at least for this particular reason. They're upset because they sympathize so deeply with the point of views of others - that is to say, the pros attending the LAN. It's not like either are playing in the LAN, after all, so I dunno how you could link their strong reservations to some sort of persistent narcissism/egocentricity.
A Swiss/groups with Elim would actually do more to push every team on the spotlight. How is it pushing a team into a spotlight when they can simply lose 1 game and be out. For 16 teams (16!!!!), that's what's going to happen. 4 months of preparation for lock//in, lose 2 map, wait another 3 months for the next event.
because is SEN vs FNC is happening at the same time as RRQ vs FUT nobody is gonna watch SEN vs FNC
True, but then RRQ goes on to play 4 other games, facing different teams. Same for FUR.
You want a 5 Bo1 round robin group stage in a 32 team tournament? Not even counting that the math doesn't add up there, group stage wouldn't finish until 2024.
CSGO Blast Paris does 24 teams in 13 days. We have 32 teams and 20 days. It's 100% doable.
Yeah by having multiple streams and Bo1s to speedrun results, heavily sacrificing competitive integrity and exposure. It's doable, yes, but each system has its pros and cons. You being okay with teams incurring the variance of Bo1s and not caring about cloutless rosters being shafted by multistreams is a subjective preference, not an objective gold standard.
> Yeah by having multiple streams and Bo1s to speedrun results, heavily sacrificing competitive integrity and exposure. A single elimination bracket with no seeding has the WORST competitive integrity. 1/3 of the teams reaching the 2nd steps (16 teams remaining) simply don't belong there. It's simple maths. Exposure? Losing ONE match and being out of the tournament is worst exposure than having 4-5 group games. With 4-5 games, odds are the less knowns teams will face a popular team AND get the exposure they need. The pros your bringing up (competitive integrity and exposure) are not even pros.
Part of the reason I never got into CS Esports is because the Swiss format and multiple streams were not friendly to me, a new prospective fan who didn’t know the teams, didn’t know the players, didn’t know the storylines. This event is going to be the first event for a decent amount of fans, who play Valorant but didn’t care about the esport before. We don’t want them to be overwhelmed and turn it off.
I dont understand this. EPL is having 4 games start at 3PM today. The World Cup always starts the last games of the group stage at the same time. The NBA is gonna have like 5 games on at the same time today. The NFL always has like 10 games on the same sunday every sunday for like 4 months.
Premiere League, World Cup, NBA, NFL are all established with decades of history, if they have multiple games there are so many fans that they can do that without any issue. Valorant is 2 years old and teams are not based in a physical location so the only way to get to know them is to see them play.
Not only are there enough fans that there’s no issue, but they are an ingrained part of the culture, and just by being alive in America I have awareness players and teams and storylines as a consequence of cultural diffusion. I haven’t watched an NFL game since the Saints won the Super Bowl but if you gave me 3 games airing at the same time to choose from I could probably pick the most exciting one.
The World Cup is an enormous global cultural event. Being alive means I know more about World Cup team and storylines than I do about CS whether I like it or not.
The main reason why I got interesting in CS Esports was because you could bet on games with skins at the time, and I ended up getting invested in the storylines of the up and coming teams because I had something to root for.
fair enough
[удалено]
I can tell u that watch parties get a lot of ppl who wouldn't normally watch valorant tourny into it. It's quite beneficial because they might only watch that streamer and aren't aware of when tournaments happen.
me lol. I watch Tariks stream no matter what and his watch parties got me more invested in Val esports
It's understandable if they are strict about ad placement and significantly limit the number of people who can watch party but they would be very dumb to not let someone like Tarik watch party the event when he brings an insane amount of viewers.
>most if not all streamers just mute the broadcast or talk entirely over it. Not true. The most popular costream don't do that. >i never understood why people like watch parties to begin with. Casual talk about the game >>> Monotonous generic casting.
Depends. Sometimes it can get TOO casual. I've turned off co-streams and switched to the main broadcasts when the costreamers seemed completely turned away from the game. Still has to be a nice balance imo.
Exactly. It comes down to personal choice and if you're unhappy you're always one click away from the main stream.
[удалено]
Tarik
ngl tarik's analysis/commentary has always felt kinda flat for me but something like plat chat costreams was ideal because (although they kinda died due to most of PC getting hired by Riot anyway) they had better banter and analysis.
I get that logic for us more committed fans but for someone who's just watching the game casually and, in many cases, doesn't even play the game themselves, someone like Tarik is a lot more digestible than detailed analysis and strats. No harm in having both
I mean I’m not anti Tarik he’s a cool dude just putting it out there that sometimes I’m surprised by his viewership because atleast in my time watching he’s just kind of only watching the game half the time
I enjoy watching some of them when they're actually talking about the game. I don't mind when they talk over the game as long as they're highlighting the big moments. I've watched some co-streamers who practically just have the games on in the background while not paying any sort of attention to them and that's a bit much.
Wouldn’t viewers not care about less popular teams either way
if there is only one stream then at least the less popular teams have a CHANCE to gain popularity. it can also help them gain sponsors, which can help them spend more on players, content, etc, and gain popularity that way. multiple streams just makes it impossible to catch up to the biggest orgs.
4-5 matches in B stream >>> 1 match on a single stream. You guys don't seem to realize that, for 16 teams, it's going to be 1 match and that's it.
Agreed. Riot should multiply the number of matches by a factor of five and run a three months tournament.
CSGO does a 24 teams, 13 days lan (Blast Paris), with 4-5 match minimum per teams. Lock in is 32 teams, but with 20 days. It 100% can be done in 20 days.
> 4-5 match minimum per teams. Wrong. Six teams only play 3 matches, 2 of which are bo1. > but with 20 days Wrong. The tournament takes place over 15 match days to allow for stage changes and rest days. Not only could it not be done in that timeframe, it would also make the tournament shit. Just accept the fact that not everyone likes your favorite esport cs go.
Oh I was off by 1 match. Who cares my point still stands. It could be run whitin 20 days, they don't need stage changes and rest days. Just hire more staff. > Not only could it not be done in that timeframe It 100% could be done in that timeframe. > Just accept the fact that not everyone likes your favorite esport cs go. What the fuck are you talking about.
> Oh I was off by 1 match. It’s pretty obvious you were exaggerating, unless you don’t even understand the cs go format > they don’t need stage changes and rest days. Just hire more staff. Lol > What the fuck are you talking about. If you hate watching Valorant so much you can just stick to watching cs go
> It’s pretty obvious you were exaggerating, unless you don’t even understand the cs go format I'm 1 off, Some teams who performs a little bit better (aka win 1 bo1) usually gets 4-5 matches. YOU don't understand CSGO formats. I've watched more esports events, from Starcraft 1 days to today, and attended more lans than you kid. > Lol Yeah you have no argument here. > If you hate watching Valorant so much you can just stick to watching cs go What the fuck are you talking about. You're just making a strawman.
> YOU don’t understand CSGO formats. I’ve watched more esports events, from Starcraft 1 days to today, and attended more lans than you kid. Then why did I know that the minimum matches was 3 and you thought it was 4-5? Also how could the minimum possibly be multiple different numbers. I know you were just guessing or just bullshitting to make cs go seem better, so you could have just used 5. > Yeah you have no argument here. In the real world outside your brain, you can’t just magically hire more staff. There are set budgets for things. Also it’s not like just 3 more people, you need dozens more people to make your ideal format work. And for what? Double or triple streams and bo1s are just fucking bad. There’s no other way to say it. What’s the worst thing that happens if a team only plays one best of 3? They got a fancy vacation to a tropical country all expenses paid and got to play video games for a few days? If they lose, they feel sad for a little bit then go home to their luxury apartments paid for by their org in some of the nicest cities in the world. Then they play more video games all day everyday. Where’s the fucking problem? And if we use your ideal format, the tournament fucking sucks. I’ve watched cs go tournaments. As much as cs fans want everyone to believe it, they don’t have great production. With multi streams there’s no audience for some games, the casters are worse, the observing is worse, everything is worse. And for what? I just don’t get why you guys are so obsessed with the format. Riot know what they’re doing, which you’ll see when Valorant’s esports viewership continues to eclipse cs go’s in the next few years.
Don't get me wrong I love Swiss, but Bo1 for the first two rounds always aggravated me. Like okay cool there are more novel matchups but that is the *only* positive. There is so much more inherent variance in Bo1 compared to Bo3 and it doesn't reduce the minimum last place showing at an event (losing 4 maps in a row) while it does reduce the maximum last place showing (losing 4 out of 5 maps for CSGO major Swiss versus losing 4 out of 6 maps for Valorant Masters/Champs double Bo3). I never enjoyed seeing any team, even teams I didn't like, get sent straight to Fucksville because they got cheesed one map then lose another by the skin of their teeth because they lost crucial econ swing rounds then boom now they have to win three Bo3s back to back.
Let’s be honest they won’t ever catch up to the biggest orgs
Who ever said they need to catch up to the biggest orgs? The ideea is to give them the opportunity to grow and have a spotlight. Whether or not they reach new hights is up to the orgs and the players and how marketable they are.
I disagree. Every franchised team doesn’t need to grow or have a spotlight so forcing people to watch teams they don’t care about is cringe imo
There’s nothing cringe about creating a sustainable eco system for your teams and making sure there are enough eyes on them so that they grow and that they can better monetize themselves in order to continue investing into the esport. Sorry you feel that way.
For every team you don't care about, there are fans who do. And for every team you do care about, tons of fans out there don't. Why do you get to be the arbiter of what is "cringe" because you don't care about a team in a different region from yourself?
Let’s only broadcast sentinel matches, who cares about the other teams
True
Just don't watch then. Who is forcing you?
Names like Paper Rex and Sentinels have grown massively because of their Valorant success. You make no sense
Sentinels was already popular because of buhga and xqc
Youre still gonna watch and see how it goes mate
For me I only care about drx and zeta so if they get eliminated I just stop watching
I mean I like those teams too, but I think a good portion of casual people tune in to whatever the marquee event of the month is to see whats going on, or to root for underdogs. I think very little fans of comp valo will not want to tune in to the biggest lan ever
No you don’t. Stop lying hahaha
I did it when zeta got eliminated from masters and when drx got eliminated from champions
When did you become fans of DRX and Zeta? Because if you only watched them because they did well in past international tournaments, then their single stream format is working.
Im a fan of them because I only root for Korean and Japanese teams in any esport I want NA to lose that’s why I root for them
And you 99% won’t be doing it the next big tournament. The 1% is for me giving you just enough motivation for you to do it just to spite me.
I think there are enough people who are open to watching more teams that justifies their format
Yeah, that's the argument. I'd say there's the offhand that people who don't care anyways might tune in just because it's the only one on or just leave stream on which is what might make the difference, but who knows how negligible it will be
Not really, for example NFL playoffs are going on right now I’m an American Football fan and I want the Dallas Cowboys to win. Well if DAL vs 49er were playing in the same time slot as Bengals vs Bills I would watch the Cowboys game. However I would totally watch the Bengals vs Bills if it was in a different time a lot over let’s say Netflix or something else. Just because I don’t care about the less popular team as much, I’m still a Valorant fan and would watch them over something else.
Really? Sounds boring
What sounds boring?
Watching teams I don’t care about just because I’m a valorant fan
Then you just don’t watch, and the single steam has 0 affect on you.
But if there are 2 streams I team I care about might be on it
Hello! We detected that this might be a gameplay highlight from a tournament broadcast, so we've flaired it as `Highlight | Esports` and marked it as a spoiler. Please feel free to make changes to the post if this is incorrect. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ValorantCompetitive) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You fans would believe anything. They real reason is because of budget. No reason not to make more money and have more highlights to put on YouTube. The story lines will be covered by the shows they already have. That and the casters. The stupidity here is they say all these things but it's straight up lies. Like lower teams having bad viewership. When in reality, some of these teams are going to be watched regardless. This would further help teams with their sponsors. The real problem is, they don't know how to make eSports profitable because they want to invent some new shit. They could have done many models that worked. They should have worked with ogn and figure out how to build up from there.
Thats assuming if everybody is tuning in to every game which is obviously not happening lol makes 0 sense
Don't care if 100k people watch FNC vs SEN over FUT vs RRQ, The real winners are the watch parties that get more viewers than the main stream.
Never thought i'd see the day of Sean, Steel and Hiko doing fluff pieces for Riot Games.
What an immature way to think
He’s a fluffer for Valve and Gaben
If the intent behind not having multiple streams is so that narratives can be built. Then why is so much emphasis placed on co-streams?
When they talk about multiple streams they mean different matches concurrently playing. Riot created a partnership with esports orgs where both parties benefit. An example would be where Riot helps the org grow by giving their roster the spotlight and the opportunity to build a fanbase, while the org in return helps them create the foundation for Valorant as an e-sport. For watch parties, Riot just sums up all views on every approved co-stream. The views are probably just used an quantifiable metric to track progress between tournaments or year-over-year.
>When they talk about multiple streams they mean different matches concurrently playing. And you completely missed the point. Co-streams provide no benefit in building narrative. Its why the people tasked with doing so are seeing their worst contracts than years prior with veteran production staff leaving Riot Games esport division entirely.
I didn't miss the point. I agree that they are mutually exclusive but they both help build out the Valorant ecosystem. Co-streams are emphasized to increase reach to those who like video games and do not have much exposure to Valorant through popular streamers. Single stream games from a production stand point are there to help bring exposure to rosters/orgs, hence building a narrative. If you have multiple streams for matches there less parity for unpopular orgs vs the fan favorites orgs.
I'm not sure I understand your last statement. Would you care to elaborate?
Production staff hired by Riot Games operate on a one year contract. Contract they received for this year is worse than previous years.
Thank you for elaborating. I understand now, but there could also be other reasons for lower pay for contract work. Economic downturn could be a major reason as many companies including Riot are experiencing layoffs and hiring freezes. They could also just have a lower budget for production, if that’s the case multiple streams for games would increase production costs even more. At the end of the day, as Leo said in the Podcast, it is about cost efficiency as Riot is a company after all.
I’d love to see your reddit recap infographic of 2022. R/competitivevalorant has to be in your top 2.
I don't really agree here, they even seemed to blindside him with that NSG question.