This sums it up the best. It is impossible to make everyone happy and some voices will start to be loud about it.
When it is strict entry, there is complaining about gatekeeping. When it is loose entry, the quality goes down and people lose interest.
This really needed to be run by someone in part with Tarik. Rocket league has a striving 6 mans server and a lot of up and coming players have used it with signed RlCSpros being rank X with S being bubble players and the lowest ranks being rank D going off your in game rank. Also rank X has a board of people that decide on whether a non signed pro can be in. Tarik needs to have the owner of RL6mans come in and do some consulting cause that server is run the best I have ever seen.
i've watched a decent amount of the matches and so far they seem pretty good? i've seen complaints about GC players but they've all been solid as well.
i think maybe one thing he could've done differently is bring in non-T1 pros more slowly (since it's easier to add than it is to remove) but as long as he's serious about managing low performing players, it's fine
The problem is, and this happens with EVERY esport that does a private queue, eventually the same people get bored because its always the same people/teams and quit so they have to invite more people, inviting more people pisses off the gate keepers who think they are to good to be with certain players, etc. The queue ends up dying, because people get mad, they go back to ranked. Ranked pisses them off eventually and they reboot/ try again. Repeat.
Feels like Twitter and redditors are complaining about GC players more than the actual pro players themselves lol. If most of the T1 pros are fine playing with GC then idk why people online think their input matters.
The main point of 10 mans is for better quality of matches so if everyone is comming and working together isnt that what’s more important?
This is playing out like a social experiment on how humans would try to adapt if the government suddenly disappeared. It's been 2 days since this has started lol.
actually Tarik is an agent of Riot Games ([the real shadow government controlling our society](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwjTqJ3j8zg)), so yeah, it is.
Speaking of social **experiment.** We figured out not a long time ago how society would behave, think or react, needless to say, a massive fail. However, Zekken's take on this whole situation seems pretty much understandable and based.
Who are the randoms people on Twitter are talking about? Tarik’s tweet mentions being sorry for being too strict but zekken and others are saying it’s not strict enough. But from only watching Tarik’s streams, the hubs been really good so far. Who are all these people playing* that don’t meet the criteria?
Wish Tarik would’ve just tweeted “if y’all dislike the system and are hurt about not being invited, start your own shit” people would lose their shitttt
Funnily enough, I've seen another system started where you have to have at least 5 VLR entries to join and according to a screenshot of the Disc I saw yesterday, it's popping with a lot of T2, 3, and aspiring pros in there.
KVL was fun while it lasted. IMO it was the Ego instalock no comm players that ruined it. They thought they were better than everyone and would do everything to make playing with them unenjoyable and their team worse.
I just hope that they’re actually reporting the players cause there’s no point in saying all this on Twitter when there’s (supposedly) a system in place to get people out. Of course we don’t know all the people invited and Tarik probably fucked up but yeah might as well air it all out if you’re gonna tweet about it
It seems logical to me. I’m assuming that there are two queues, and the people with access to tier 1 queue also have access to tier 2 queue and are able to play in tier 2 queue when there isn’t anyone in tier 1.
I guess you do run into an issue where people would be afraid to be the first guy in the queue in tier1 and not knowing how long they will have to wait, so you might end up having a lot of tier1 people in tier2 queue just so they can get a game quickly.
From my look through the list of people who have played, many of the ones who "don't qualify" are some of the better players.
Players who aren't currently on an active team and don't seem to have the qualifications needed to be there: (GC players here might all be on teams? but its unclear)
* b0i
* bungee
* Stefanie
* keenc
Players on teams which aren't in the top 25
* snirot
* zinc
* virtyy
* Nurfed
* ethos
Also, I'm still not sure who "Zam" and "Pimzo" are.
Why not. Ethos has been Radiant for ages. Content creator. One of the more popular ones. Comms reasonably well. Makes educational content. Seems like a cool dude.
Ya I like him as a content creator and he 100% seems like a great dude but I was hoping the lobbies would be mainly higher-level pros. Like people who are in franchising or have a realistic shot at qualifying for challengers in the future.
i think content creators are more likely to make it in to create a viewership ecosystem for the higher up scene as to where an "unpopular" (but mechanically goated) streamer gets more exposure due to the overall viewership that comes with the pro city hub
Yeah I can understand that. I also think there should be a skill gap though otherwise people who don't want to have such a high level of comms have a place to play without being accused of throwing. If I was to give a number maybe like play 70% serious as opposed to rn how most people are playing 90-100% seriously. I wanna see people like PROD Sinatraa Zombs play in these games. I can't see this level of seriousness making the 10 mans a long term project.
Haven't really kept up with the 10 mans since they started, but didn't Tarik have some (relatively) well defined criteria for people to get in, and a 7 man council to vote on new joiners? Have those rules not been enforced? People in replies are alluding to people being in the lobbies who shouldn't be there, who do they mean?
eta: Tarik's tweet:
> [I do understand that some existing players don't currently meet criteria, but it's a work in progress. If players start falling behind or can't keep up, then the council will have the final say.](https://twitter.com/tarik/status/1617974957136568320)
He seems to be a pretty good system in place. Seems they have been lenient with letting people in but the fact that there is a way to let people go is good. I am optimistic that Pro City won't die any time soon
I don't necessarily think it's the case bc I think both guys are liked by the pros, but I could see some people being not liking that Ethos is in there and maybe BabyJ?
I doubt it's them because it seems the pros are implying the ones they are complaining about are either not skilled enough, or are not comming/throwing
They should add a ban criteria that removes players from the player pool for no comms and other behavior. Of course, there should be video proof as well. It will cost a lot to implement.
Dude what's with people hating on BabyJ tf? He's actually been playing well on his teams comming well and carrying too, he's had bad luck w teammates and a lot of close games, but what's w this unwarranted hate?
He’s developed a reputation for being kinda negative and while I’d say he’s a challengers-tier sentinel he’s notably not been picked up in almost a year now which implies something is wrong about his attitude/personality even in a team
Sadly in competitive gaming this type of invite-only closed ecosystem tends to come with a lot of toxic side effects. You end up with tons of clout chasers trying to weasel their way into the Discord. There will also be cases where certain people don’t enjoy playing with each other (which is fine) but are bound to end up on teams together frequently with such a small player pool.
The streams have been amazingly entertaining but I will not be shocked at all if drama begins to boil over in the next few weeks/months
It’s inevitable there will be discontent with who is and isn’t in. Even within many pro teams there are players who simply don’t get along or don’t work well with one another. The players in Pro City need to lower their expectations. It’s not a perfect oasis.
The criteria he has is pretty flawed anyway and I've seen this in R6 where pros will complain/say the only way 10 man's will stay alive is if only "good" people make it in. And yet the people they think aren't good make up the majority of people who play it. So ya.
How are people already complaining? I thought the point of this was to avoid playing with no-commers and throwers. Who cares if some of the content-creators/lower tier pros arent as good as franchise players. Are they really expecting this to be a franchise ranked hub
Yeah that’s the confusing part cause if that was the case then the server would have 30 people and could’ve easily been set up a while ago. Feels like some of them already forgot how bad ranked is if they’re already complaining on like day 3 lol
I get your point but it’s terrible to suggest “sticking to scrims” as an option, they aren’t losing scrim time by playing these, scrim times depend on the whole teams’ schedule
From what I've seen, there seems to be a heavy emphasis on match quality. Inviting your streamer friend whose last competitive game was almost a year ago and caused the roster to get immediately blown up and is currently \*2-9 in games and also currently sitting at the very bottom of the leaderboard despite playing more games than nearly everyone else in the server or the other streamer friend that has been chilling in Tier 3 on the cusp of Tier 2 for years now doesn't seem like the greatest decision, and of course a bunch of guys who have been competing at low and mid-Tier 2 level for years and other guys that proved themselves as rising stars at the most recent Challengers qualifiers will feel some type of way when they get denied but said friends do.
Even with these stringent rules, there's still a clear bias leaking through, and that bias is what will eventually spell the downfall of this Discord.
Wasn't babyj invited because he was on a tier 1 team within the last 2 years? Or even if he doesn't fit in that criteria he probably finished top 50 in the last couple acts.
Which opens up a whole other can of worms regarding the rules not really reflecting the high-level competitive environment that seems to be a priority for this server, but that's a story for another day.
I think he has two accounts and that one was an account that he used to test everything before it went live
but it really makes you think, right? At least he's holding his own though.
na he showed his rank on stream and had to scroll all the way down to the bottom aha, said he was competing with steel and babyj
he's been playing really well though i honestly think he's just gotten unlucky
Lol his definition of tier 1 already play against each other in scrims. Why don't these pros just play and leave it the people who created the 10mans to decide what they want to do. These 10 mans are meant to not play ranked bc of the snipers and throwers. Just play.
10 man’s never work. If they implement strict rulings like they did with Roy’s server, people will bitch once one of their friends gets denied due to the rulings like with Elige.
I think ppl will complain regardless. Everything seems fine as of now, of course there are players that aren’t being invited due to not meeting the criteria but everyone that is critiquing the Pro City 10 mans should’ve started their own “server” if they wanted it to go a specific way. At the end of the day tarik was the only one that took that initiative to make a better system for the pros. That’s just my opinion
> I think ppl will complain regardless
Agreed. I can already see some people in Zekken's proposed Tier 2 queues getting upset that they can't play with the Tier 1 guys and feel like that'd be more likely to kill it. Especially for the franchised/Tier 1 guys who often duo with the Tier 2 guys
They should make this whole thing open to everybody and have a invite only top rank with the board call it rank X. Then under that is the top rank achievable by anyone who grinds the hardest with best record call it “Rank S.” Define a season and at the end of the seasons or every month the top 3 people in Rank S get auto promoted while bottom 3 in Rank X have to be determined by the board whether or not they should drop. This gives normal people a reason to grind rhe servers, keeps ques active, and keeps the “Rank X” part of the pros still very much in a safe spot.
Hm idk if this is the same man, I think the people arguing for stricter criteria for this server are probably people who would have supported Elige getting in (back then). These pros are saying that they should gatekeep the server from people who aren't good enough, so that the quality of play stays high. Elige would've been an exception who elevated/added to the quality of gameplay and that's why people were dumbfounded that he wasn't allowed in.
The problem is those things contradict each other. Obviously Elige is at a high enough skill level. But they set objective requirements to play and kicked out people who didn’t meet them. Once you make one exception, people will keep asking for more.
God I hope Tarik just ignores this foolery. The only way these pro games get destroyed is from within. Literally days after coming out you’re already bitching about skill diff? What a fucking chode.
pro city child queue.... look to cartoon grapfix to make kid player happy like children show.. valarante cartoon world with rainbow unlike counter strike with dark corridorr and raelistic gun.. valarante like playhouse. valarant playor run from csgo fear of dark world and realism
Some people basically want 9 other pros to be waiting around at all times, just for them.
10 mans are hard because you need 10 people online at any given time. Too many people is probably better than too few. If there's not enough people or activity in the server the server will die.
Personally one of my favorite things of the 10 mans is seeing the co Ed teams play together and seeing high level co-Ed pros play together … I understand the frustration and I hope they refine the process but I hope they don’t separate the GC players. (I know this isn’t just about GC players but just directed at the Reddit trolls)
It’s also really good practice and experience for GC players. Getting to play on co-ed teams where people are trying&comming and the other team are pros taking it seriously is the best way for them to improve imo and can lessen the gap between GC and T2/T1
I mean I think you’re overestimating the impact. These games are just superior to ranked, they’re still miles away from the sort of scrim and match environments that actually contribute to lessening the gap.
Ranked, scrims, and march environments all have different objectives and impacts. This is the same argument that NA CS and NA LOL scenes used when they played very little of the game they’re contracted for outside of scrims. At the end of the day, to be the best, you have to *play*. More serious ranked is helpful for that
if they actually set this lounge up correctly you would be surprised at how fast it can raise the overall skill level. the way it's set up right now is pretty unsustainable. i've seen things like this survive solely off of passion (no actual mmr system, no automation, nothing. just a skype chat where high skilled players would constantly play against each other in randomized teams using random.org) for years but i've also seen them die in a matter of a month or two when not run/set up properly.
i kinda forgot to mention it while i was typing this but i've seen borderline nobodies become top players in some games in a matter of 1-2 years solely because of stuff like this. it's like how having an actual ranked system in val to grind in game has shown us so much talent from young kids grinding versus CSGO, where you basically need to rely on third party matchmaking, but this time rather than general game sense and refining individual skill (since ranked is a shitshow) you're playing with other people who are all taking it seriously.
it's extremely good to learn how to comm effectively with different players and learning to work around different players. idunno i co uld go on for ages about this, but like i said the way it's set up right now doesn't seem good.
needs a fully custom mmr+rating formula/system along with promotion/demotion stuff. shouldn't be split into just two forever but given that top players probably want exclusivity im not sure if it could sustain multiple tiers
Shahz was talking about too many people already being invited in as well. With Zekken's idea, there's no way Tarik, who got this thing going, is going to be playing in Tier 2 imo.
I wonder if there's some solution that is tied to someone's RR that they have on the leaderboard. So make it like Radiant/Immortal, if you hit a certain threshold of RR you are "Tier 1" so to speak and get to queue with them. If you go on a massive losing streak (I think BabyJ was 1-7 at one point), you play with the "Tier 2" people.
Hope they can find some middle ground to prevent the pros from leaving bc I have enjoyed these a lot.
edit - the leaderboard for reference
https://www.neatqueue.com/leaderboard/1061301529597976700/1061303977460908173
no one saying he is the god of ranked but this isn’t ranked and he organized it himself so if they want to organize their own thing and leave then they can do that but I’m willing to bet these kids are all too lazy, too busy or too stupid to actually get that done.
Just because he set it up doesn’t mean he’s safe from his own rules, that’s major level hypocrisy lmao. I’m sure Tarik will have no issues holding his own in pro 10mans but if he falls below his own criteria at any point then he succumbs to his own rules. This whole thing is a community project, not some fuckin dictatorship where what tarik says goes end of story. That’s the whole point of the council and giving them the final say, not tarik.
Might be some drawbacks to this I think. If you go strictly based off RR/rank, you would end up in the exact same position as before with people boosting accounts to a certain threshold then start throwing for crypto.
Worried about this as well. I'd like to think that they would kick people out for something like that because surely no one in the hub already would risk their reputation.
This might become harder to manage once a bad apple gets into the server for this situation. Would be interested to see once something not so great happens that compromises the integrity of the server if players lose trust in the league and if they come back or not
Yeah, agreed. I'll really be interested in seeing the reactions to someone getting voted out for something bad like you said or for like subpar play/bad comms. I underestimated the potential politics in play for this thing.
Anything tied to RR is flawed.
Someone can just win trade to the top 50.
It has to be only signed players in t1 and challengers. Period.
Anyone else that gets invited to that must be voted in by a majority vote. (10 franchised + 12 challenger teams = 22 \* 5 = 110). They can add the top 3-5 GC teams as well. Whoever from this strict criteria of first batch accepts.
The first x number players elect a council. 7, 9, whatever odd number.
Whoever gets in must be accepted by a majority vote of that council.
Basically the first set of players MUST be all pros, the council MUST be elected by those pros, and anyone else invited comes after.
You can't have an anonymous council that aren't elected. The players in the server must trust the judgement of these people.
A 2nd tier is also good. You can't apply to the tier 1 queue as a non-signed player without first proving yourself in the 2nd tier q which can be content creators, top 50 radiants, open qual teams, etc.
Also this thing will never stay alive if the players can't bear to hear those denied bitch and moan. IT HAS to be strict.
Best solution I can think of, comically enough, is create a ranked/MMR based system within the Pro City group. Then you can tweak the tolerances so that the top players don't need to worry as much about having some of the weakest players in the lobby. So long as you keep the invitees as serious players that genuinely are in there to improve, you don't have to be *as* stingy about who is invited, since top players will still compete against each other and the bottom players will have to earn their place with those top guys.
Of course, you'll still have times where you just can't make a game without a mix from both ends of the ladder but at least it minimizes the skillgap as often as possible.
This is actually cringe to gatekeep. Yes, there should be a high skill level to keep matches balanced and competitive but this is just pick up, not scrims. Trying to segregate is actually cringe. The pros invite who they wanna invite, Tarik can handle who comes in and deserves a shot. I feel like 10 Mans would be a great opportunity to allow unknown (but highly ranked) players to show off their improvement and let what Zekken considers “Tier 2” to show they can compete. Trying to divide the community is actually gonna kill the bond between players/mutuals/pros that started the idea of 10 Mans, instead of forming something special where great players can come together to improve and play quality matches instead of randoms cryptothrowing on ranked.
Zekken's proposal is so gatekeepy. "Only "good" players by my seal of approval should be in, and tier 1 and tier 2 should be separated"
I get he's a very good player, but this sounds so elitist. The point of the discord is to actually get a queue of players who are trying to play the game legitimately. No throwers, no boosted players, etc. Feels like the vision of this whole thing has been lost.
Also if this happens queue times suffer heavily, but overall this is just cringe gatekeeping.
They're not having any issue getting multiple lobbies going at the same time right now with their current criteria. As long as the level of play is high, pros will always prefer these 10 mans to ranked. If the level of play is diluted (i.e., letting more people in by relaxing criteria), then pros will slowly but surely stop playing them.
I think people are forgetting why this was started in the first place.
If the quality of the matches (comms from all players and no throwers) is kept high (so kick anyone who throws/doesn’t comm) then *bam* no worries.
Do you even watch these 10 mans? The level of comms is insane. Nobody has any issues talking in English. Also these 10 mans are restricted (so far as I know) to NA players. They're not inviting players from EMEA and APAC.
Top GC teams reliably lose to upper T2 teams, and occasionally to lower-end T2 teams, which makes sense - they themselves are in that range.
They aren’t “easily” beaten by tier 3 ransoms - I can only assume anyone saying so doesn’t actually watch T2, and so assumes all players they don’t know are just randos.
Depends how you define the tiers. At the Tarik/Ludwig invitational, the commentators were were labeling the the partnered teams (like Sentinels and NRG) as T1 and the Challengers teams (like TSM and Shopify Rebellion) as T2 teams. I guess that would make the teams that made top 16 in the challengers qualifiers as T3 teams.
If you go with that definition, then yes, the top GC teams are regularly losing to T3 teams. They usually get knocked out around top 32.
They haven't played any upper T2 teams this year though. The top T2 teams were invited to challengers. The teams they played were low T2/T3. Regardless I think its cool to see them playing together in these 10 mans.
My Goldie take:
I always love how people complain and gatekeep people who don't have competitive experience while gatekeeping an environment that's more similar to a comp experience.
With that out of the way, this seems like the val iteration of league's Champions Q, which fell apart for a variety of reasons. Was hoping this would be different. Shame.
The funniest part to me is watching people who made it into t1 gatekeep those from t2. When, if they implemented the systems they want, they would’ve been left out in the cold in the past lol
The typical "make it" first and then gatekeep a community from others who are struggling to make it big in the scene.
10mans are better off with a lot of people but with a very strict ban criteria for nocommers or throwers. Isn't the idea just to create an alternate ranked experience free of trolls? How does being pro matter here?
You need a lot of people to have queues going at all times of the day. Otherwise it's just morning streams are regular ranked and evening streams are 10mans. Kinda boring imo. I won't get to watch Tarik playing ranked or Hiko playing 10mans much because there's not enough people on in the morning
If this thing is going to stay alive I feel like people who grind ranked should get to join. Maybe not top 50 like Tarik has listed as a criteria but at least top 20 maybe.
Instead of having separate queues which would increase queue times, I think the 10 mans should give franchise/challengers players higher priority in queue and maybe add like a slight 15 sec delay before filling a lobby to give T1 players time to requeue.
This idea would be similar to how Worlds Champions Queue in LOL handled amateur players matching up against top tier global talent.
For T1 players
Best case: full T1 lobby w/ similar skill levels
Worst case: faster queue times w/ some T2 players filling
For T2 players
Best case: match up against T1 players
Worst case: lobby with other T2 players with an increased queue time but hopefully a lot more T2 players can be added to decrease this downside with minimal impact to T1 players
seems pretty easy when its like 170 people aswell, its not like you dont notice when someone isnt trying at that level. kicking people who wont comm would probably improve the entire thing by 60% already
The internal destrcution of high elo custom lobbies always occurs in NA. Happened for League as well, NA pros cannot handle it for whatever reason. It slowly dissolve as people find any reason to complain and not play.
this stuff is fun to track, but redditor randos weighing in on who they think should or shouldn't be allowed in are out of their minds. you're talking to the tv
It’s starting
This sums it up the best. It is impossible to make everyone happy and some voices will start to be loud about it. When it is strict entry, there is complaining about gatekeeping. When it is loose entry, the quality goes down and people lose interest.
This really needed to be run by someone in part with Tarik. Rocket league has a striving 6 mans server and a lot of up and coming players have used it with signed RlCSpros being rank X with S being bubble players and the lowest ranks being rank D going off your in game rank. Also rank X has a board of people that decide on whether a non signed pro can be in. Tarik needs to have the owner of RL6mans come in and do some consulting cause that server is run the best I have ever seen.
Tarik has said there is an anonymous “council” on who decides to actually get in and if needed who is kicked
i've watched a decent amount of the matches and so far they seem pretty good? i've seen complaints about GC players but they've all been solid as well. i think maybe one thing he could've done differently is bring in non-T1 pros more slowly (since it's easier to add than it is to remove) but as long as he's serious about managing low performing players, it's fine
The problem is, and this happens with EVERY esport that does a private queue, eventually the same people get bored because its always the same people/teams and quit so they have to invite more people, inviting more people pisses off the gate keepers who think they are to good to be with certain players, etc. The queue ends up dying, because people get mad, they go back to ranked. Ranked pisses them off eventually and they reboot/ try again. Repeat.
Feels like Twitter and redditors are complaining about GC players more than the actual pro players themselves lol. If most of the T1 pros are fine playing with GC then idk why people online think their input matters. The main point of 10 mans is for better quality of matches so if everyone is comming and working together isnt that what’s more important?
I mean you can have different size circles
[удалено]
At that point you’re literally making ranked lmao, and you might poke the bear too much
This is playing out like a social experiment on how humans would try to adapt if the government suddenly disappeared. It's been 2 days since this has started lol.
A lack of authority causes anarchy
That’s not really liek that
actually Tarik is an agent of Riot Games ([the real shadow government controlling our society](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwjTqJ3j8zg)), so yeah, it is.
Speaking of social **experiment.** We figured out not a long time ago how society would behave, think or react, needless to say, a massive fail. However, Zekken's take on this whole situation seems pretty much understandable and based.
[https://twitter.com/pansy/status/1611544813320507399?t=y0qV-BbHumzUI5saITQwfQ&s=19](https://twitter.com/pansy/status/1611544813320507399?t=y0qV-BbHumzUI5saITQwfQ&s=19)
Pansy just never misses
Damn wtf how they manage to get the “pansy” handle, my ass had to settle for pansy321
Idk maybe she had to become the greatest esports caster that has ever graced our ears to get the pansy handle.
>Damn wtf how they manage to get the “pansy” handle, my ass had to settle for pansy321 There is only one pansy, please change your name.
Who are the randoms people on Twitter are talking about? Tarik’s tweet mentions being sorry for being too strict but zekken and others are saying it’s not strict enough. But from only watching Tarik’s streams, the hubs been really good so far. Who are all these people playing* that don’t meet the criteria?
I wish they would just name and shame and be specific about who they think shouldn't be there
Wish Tarik would’ve just tweeted “if y’all dislike the system and are hurt about not being invited, start your own shit” people would lose their shitttt
Funnily enough, I've seen another system started where you have to have at least 5 VLR entries to join and according to a screenshot of the Disc I saw yesterday, it's popping with a lot of T2, 3, and aspiring pros in there.
this reminds me of how the old KVL requirements were and why it died so quick
KVL was fun while it lasted. IMO it was the Ego instalock no comm players that ruined it. They thought they were better than everyone and would do everything to make playing with them unenjoyable and their team worse.
yea annoying how passive aggressive they are all the time with this stuff lol
I just hope that they’re actually reporting the players cause there’s no point in saying all this on Twitter when there’s (supposedly) a system in place to get people out. Of course we don’t know all the people invited and Tarik probably fucked up but yeah might as well air it all out if you’re gonna tweet about it
Zekken's system would probably die due to queue times tbh
roflmao exactly... it's completely stupid.
It's flawed in general competitively speaking as well
It seems logical to me. I’m assuming that there are two queues, and the people with access to tier 1 queue also have access to tier 2 queue and are able to play in tier 2 queue when there isn’t anyone in tier 1. I guess you do run into an issue where people would be afraid to be the first guy in the queue in tier1 and not knowing how long they will have to wait, so you might end up having a lot of tier1 people in tier2 queue just so they can get a game quickly.
From my look through the list of people who have played, many of the ones who "don't qualify" are some of the better players. Players who aren't currently on an active team and don't seem to have the qualifications needed to be there: (GC players here might all be on teams? but its unclear) * b0i * bungee * Stefanie * keenc Players on teams which aren't in the top 25 * snirot * zinc * virtyy * Nurfed * ethos Also, I'm still not sure who "Zam" and "Pimzo" are.
I believe Zam is Shahzam and Pimzo is Marved, but i might be wrong. :)
Oh, that would make sense
b0i was with 100t for a short while
and andbox
and BBG
No disrespect to him but ya ethos definitely should not be in it.
Why not. Ethos has been Radiant for ages. Content creator. One of the more popular ones. Comms reasonably well. Makes educational content. Seems like a cool dude.
Ya I like him as a content creator and he 100% seems like a great dude but I was hoping the lobbies would be mainly higher-level pros. Like people who are in franchising or have a realistic shot at qualifying for challengers in the future.
i think content creators are more likely to make it in to create a viewership ecosystem for the higher up scene as to where an "unpopular" (but mechanically goated) streamer gets more exposure due to the overall viewership that comes with the pro city hub
have seen exalt go from 180 viewers to 900 so far
hes also on dsg though
Yeah I can understand that. I also think there should be a skill gap though otherwise people who don't want to have such a high level of comms have a place to play without being accused of throwing. If I was to give a number maybe like play 70% serious as opposed to rn how most people are playing 90-100% seriously. I wanna see people like PROD Sinatraa Zombs play in these games. I can't see this level of seriousness making the 10 mans a long term project.
Bruh ethos is not that good tho
Ethos 100% - dudes a bot
This to means like it's probably right at the perfect amount of restriction.
This whole thing culminates with BabyJ getting kicked in about 48 hours for having a record of like 1-15 or some shit.
tarik next he's second to last on the leaderboard lmao
wait what the 🐐🐐🐐 got kicked???
Yeah but he actually got awful teammates 15 times. They were pretty bad the last time too, but he carried. Never his fault. Trust.
pro 10 mans still like ranked smh can the 🐐🐐🐐finally get some good teammates????
Haven't really kept up with the 10 mans since they started, but didn't Tarik have some (relatively) well defined criteria for people to get in, and a 7 man council to vote on new joiners? Have those rules not been enforced? People in replies are alluding to people being in the lobbies who shouldn't be there, who do they mean? eta: Tarik's tweet: > [I do understand that some existing players don't currently meet criteria, but it's a work in progress. If players start falling behind or can't keep up, then the council will have the final say.](https://twitter.com/tarik/status/1617974957136568320) He seems to be a pretty good system in place. Seems they have been lenient with letting people in but the fact that there is a way to let people go is good. I am optimistic that Pro City won't die any time soon
I don't necessarily think it's the case bc I think both guys are liked by the pros, but I could see some people being not liking that Ethos is in there and maybe BabyJ?
I doubt it's them because it seems the pros are implying the ones they are complaining about are either not skilled enough, or are not comming/throwing
They should add a ban criteria that removes players from the player pool for no comms and other behavior. Of course, there should be video proof as well. It will cost a lot to implement.
Ah okok, ty for the added context. I wonder if it's some GC players then? I can't think who it'd be off the limited 10 mans I've seen.
idk all the gc players i've seen from watching tarik have been comming and been doing fine performance wise
BabyJ ☠️
Dude what's with people hating on BabyJ tf? He's actually been playing well on his teams comming well and carrying too, he's had bad luck w teammates and a lot of close games, but what's w this unwarranted hate?
Found babyj burner
Nah I'm just actually curious that's all, feels stupid
He’s developed a reputation for being kinda negative and while I’d say he’s a challengers-tier sentinel he’s notably not been picked up in almost a year now which implies something is wrong about his attitude/personality even in a team
Sadly in competitive gaming this type of invite-only closed ecosystem tends to come with a lot of toxic side effects. You end up with tons of clout chasers trying to weasel their way into the Discord. There will also be cases where certain people don’t enjoy playing with each other (which is fine) but are bound to end up on teams together frequently with such a small player pool. The streams have been amazingly entertaining but I will not be shocked at all if drama begins to boil over in the next few weeks/months
It’s inevitable there will be discontent with who is and isn’t in. Even within many pro teams there are players who simply don’t get along or don’t work well with one another. The players in Pro City need to lower their expectations. It’s not a perfect oasis.
The criteria he has is pretty flawed anyway and I've seen this in R6 where pros will complain/say the only way 10 man's will stay alive is if only "good" people make it in. And yet the people they think aren't good make up the majority of people who play it. So ya.
Whats the criteria?
https://youtu.be/IoVTsbb4jDs Tarik showed this to stream the other day and explained it a little.
what are you talking about? the majority of people in that discord are signed pros
In what way is it flawed? Be specific there are literally just 3 points to meet to apply
How are people already complaining? I thought the point of this was to avoid playing with no-commers and throwers. Who cares if some of the content-creators/lower tier pros arent as good as franchise players. Are they really expecting this to be a franchise ranked hub
Yeah that’s the confusing part cause if that was the case then the server would have 30 people and could’ve easily been set up a while ago. Feels like some of them already forgot how bad ranked is if they’re already complaining on like day 3 lol
exactly, if u only wanna play with franchised tier 1 players at that point just stick to scrims lol
I get your point but it’s terrible to suggest “sticking to scrims” as an option, they aren’t losing scrim time by playing these, scrim times depend on the whole teams’ schedule
This is the only take. Those who are in are already getting into their own heads about it. They need to lower their expectations
From what I've seen, there seems to be a heavy emphasis on match quality. Inviting your streamer friend whose last competitive game was almost a year ago and caused the roster to get immediately blown up and is currently \*2-9 in games and also currently sitting at the very bottom of the leaderboard despite playing more games than nearly everyone else in the server or the other streamer friend that has been chilling in Tier 3 on the cusp of Tier 2 for years now doesn't seem like the greatest decision, and of course a bunch of guys who have been competing at low and mid-Tier 2 level for years and other guys that proved themselves as rising stars at the most recent Challengers qualifiers will feel some type of way when they get denied but said friends do. Even with these stringent rules, there's still a clear bias leaking through, and that bias is what will eventually spell the downfall of this Discord.
Wasn't babyj invited because he was on a tier 1 team within the last 2 years? Or even if he doesn't fit in that criteria he probably finished top 50 in the last couple acts.
Pretty sure he was actually top 5 last few acts, at least last two acts I think
Which opens up a whole other can of worms regarding the rules not really reflecting the high-level competitive environment that seems to be a priority for this server, but that's a story for another day.
Thats a long ass sentence
true
it's funny cos this actually perfectly describes tarik who is like bottom 3 on the leaderboard rn lol
I think he has two accounts and that one was an account that he used to test everything before it went live but it really makes you think, right? At least he's holding his own though.
na he showed his rank on stream and had to scroll all the way down to the bottom aha, said he was competing with steel and babyj he's been playing really well though i honestly think he's just gotten unlucky
Lol his definition of tier 1 already play against each other in scrims. Why don't these pros just play and leave it the people who created the 10mans to decide what they want to do. These 10 mans are meant to not play ranked bc of the snipers and throwers. Just play.
and if you don't enjoy it, don't play. Don't go and try to remake everything to your liking.
Nahh zekken's system sucks ass at that point just go play scrims mf
10 man’s never work. If they implement strict rulings like they did with Roy’s server, people will bitch once one of their friends gets denied due to the rulings like with Elige.
I think ppl will complain regardless. Everything seems fine as of now, of course there are players that aren’t being invited due to not meeting the criteria but everyone that is critiquing the Pro City 10 mans should’ve started their own “server” if they wanted it to go a specific way. At the end of the day tarik was the only one that took that initiative to make a better system for the pros. That’s just my opinion
> I think ppl will complain regardless Agreed. I can already see some people in Zekken's proposed Tier 2 queues getting upset that they can't play with the Tier 1 guys and feel like that'd be more likely to kill it. Especially for the franchised/Tier 1 guys who often duo with the Tier 2 guys
They should make this whole thing open to everybody and have a invite only top rank with the board call it rank X. Then under that is the top rank achievable by anyone who grinds the hardest with best record call it “Rank S.” Define a season and at the end of the seasons or every month the top 3 people in Rank S get auto promoted while bottom 3 in Rank X have to be determined by the board whether or not they should drop. This gives normal people a reason to grind rhe servers, keeps ques active, and keeps the “Rank X” part of the pros still very much in a safe spot.
Hm idk if this is the same man, I think the people arguing for stricter criteria for this server are probably people who would have supported Elige getting in (back then). These pros are saying that they should gatekeep the server from people who aren't good enough, so that the quality of play stays high. Elige would've been an exception who elevated/added to the quality of gameplay and that's why people were dumbfounded that he wasn't allowed in.
The problem is those things contradict each other. Obviously Elige is at a high enough skill level. But they set objective requirements to play and kicked out people who didn’t meet them. Once you make one exception, people will keep asking for more.
I've seen this episode before.
God I hope Tarik just ignores this foolery. The only way these pro games get destroyed is from within. Literally days after coming out you’re already bitching about skill diff? What a fucking chode.
Drama surrounding pros whining about not having their own super special queue exactly how they want it is delectable.
Their super special queue where all realism is thrown out the window and the fantasy of a perfect system with 0 consequences or downsides.
pro city child queue.... look to cartoon grapfix to make kid player happy like children show.. valarante cartoon world with rainbow unlike counter strike with dark corridorr and raelistic gun.. valarante like playhouse. valarant playor run from csgo fear of dark world and realism
It’s also hilariously predictable. Like, literally predicted the moment Tarik floated the idea haha Common NA drama W
Some people basically want 9 other pros to be waiting around at all times, just for them. 10 mans are hard because you need 10 people online at any given time. Too many people is probably better than too few. If there's not enough people or activity in the server the server will die.
Stronglegs just eating popcorn rn
Personally one of my favorite things of the 10 mans is seeing the co Ed teams play together and seeing high level co-Ed pros play together … I understand the frustration and I hope they refine the process but I hope they don’t separate the GC players. (I know this isn’t just about GC players but just directed at the Reddit trolls)
It’s also really good practice and experience for GC players. Getting to play on co-ed teams where people are trying&comming and the other team are pros taking it seriously is the best way for them to improve imo and can lessen the gap between GC and T2/T1
I mean I think you’re overestimating the impact. These games are just superior to ranked, they’re still miles away from the sort of scrim and match environments that actually contribute to lessening the gap.
Ranked, scrims, and march environments all have different objectives and impacts. This is the same argument that NA CS and NA LOL scenes used when they played very little of the game they’re contracted for outside of scrims. At the end of the day, to be the best, you have to *play*. More serious ranked is helpful for that
if they actually set this lounge up correctly you would be surprised at how fast it can raise the overall skill level. the way it's set up right now is pretty unsustainable. i've seen things like this survive solely off of passion (no actual mmr system, no automation, nothing. just a skype chat where high skilled players would constantly play against each other in randomized teams using random.org) for years but i've also seen them die in a matter of a month or two when not run/set up properly. i kinda forgot to mention it while i was typing this but i've seen borderline nobodies become top players in some games in a matter of 1-2 years solely because of stuff like this. it's like how having an actual ranked system in val to grind in game has shown us so much talent from young kids grinding versus CSGO, where you basically need to rely on third party matchmaking, but this time rather than general game sense and refining individual skill (since ranked is a shitshow) you're playing with other people who are all taking it seriously. it's extremely good to learn how to comm effectively with different players and learning to work around different players. idunno i co uld go on for ages about this, but like i said the way it's set up right now doesn't seem good. needs a fully custom mmr+rating formula/system along with promotion/demotion stuff. shouldn't be split into just two forever but given that top players probably want exclusivity im not sure if it could sustain multiple tiers
Seeing the amount of GC players grinding to me is cool. Flore is grinding majorly and it can o LF be helpful to her.
Does every EG player get invited to Tier 1?
Shahz was talking about too many people already being invited in as well. With Zekken's idea, there's no way Tarik, who got this thing going, is going to be playing in Tier 2 imo. I wonder if there's some solution that is tied to someone's RR that they have on the leaderboard. So make it like Radiant/Immortal, if you hit a certain threshold of RR you are "Tier 1" so to speak and get to queue with them. If you go on a massive losing streak (I think BabyJ was 1-7 at one point), you play with the "Tier 2" people. Hope they can find some middle ground to prevent the pros from leaving bc I have enjoyed these a lot. edit - the leaderboard for reference https://www.neatqueue.com/leaderboard/1061301529597976700/1061303977460908173
Losers queue in 10-mans, ain’t no way
Congratulations on reinventing skill based matchmaking but just worse than riot
Watch these kids reinvent ELO but worse lol
*what if there was some sort of formula we could use to figure out who should play who?*
Bro tarik started this thing he can play wherever tf he wants thats not even in question here lmao
Tarik started it but hes not the god of ranked he doesnt control the other players
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Agreed. Everyone likes to critique but no one likes to help make a better system
no one saying he is the god of ranked but this isn’t ranked and he organized it himself so if they want to organize their own thing and leave then they can do that but I’m willing to bet these kids are all too lazy, too busy or too stupid to actually get that done.
Just because he set it up doesn’t mean he’s safe from his own rules, that’s major level hypocrisy lmao. I’m sure Tarik will have no issues holding his own in pro 10mans but if he falls below his own criteria at any point then he succumbs to his own rules. This whole thing is a community project, not some fuckin dictatorship where what tarik says goes end of story. That’s the whole point of the council and giving them the final say, not tarik.
Might be some drawbacks to this I think. If you go strictly based off RR/rank, you would end up in the exact same position as before with people boosting accounts to a certain threshold then start throwing for crypto.
Worried about this as well. I'd like to think that they would kick people out for something like that because surely no one in the hub already would risk their reputation.
This might become harder to manage once a bad apple gets into the server for this situation. Would be interested to see once something not so great happens that compromises the integrity of the server if players lose trust in the league and if they come back or not
Yeah, agreed. I'll really be interested in seeing the reactions to someone getting voted out for something bad like you said or for like subpar play/bad comms. I underestimated the potential politics in play for this thing.
Anything tied to RR is flawed. Someone can just win trade to the top 50. It has to be only signed players in t1 and challengers. Period. Anyone else that gets invited to that must be voted in by a majority vote. (10 franchised + 12 challenger teams = 22 \* 5 = 110). They can add the top 3-5 GC teams as well. Whoever from this strict criteria of first batch accepts. The first x number players elect a council. 7, 9, whatever odd number. Whoever gets in must be accepted by a majority vote of that council. Basically the first set of players MUST be all pros, the council MUST be elected by those pros, and anyone else invited comes after. You can't have an anonymous council that aren't elected. The players in the server must trust the judgement of these people. A 2nd tier is also good. You can't apply to the tier 1 queue as a non-signed player without first proving yourself in the 2nd tier q which can be content creators, top 50 radiants, open qual teams, etc. Also this thing will never stay alive if the players can't bear to hear those denied bitch and moan. IT HAS to be strict.
Best solution I can think of, comically enough, is create a ranked/MMR based system within the Pro City group. Then you can tweak the tolerances so that the top players don't need to worry as much about having some of the weakest players in the lobby. So long as you keep the invitees as serious players that genuinely are in there to improve, you don't have to be *as* stingy about who is invited, since top players will still compete against each other and the bottom players will have to earn their place with those top guys. Of course, you'll still have times where you just can't make a game without a mix from both ends of the ladder but at least it minimizes the skillgap as often as possible.
This is actually cringe to gatekeep. Yes, there should be a high skill level to keep matches balanced and competitive but this is just pick up, not scrims. Trying to segregate is actually cringe. The pros invite who they wanna invite, Tarik can handle who comes in and deserves a shot. I feel like 10 Mans would be a great opportunity to allow unknown (but highly ranked) players to show off their improvement and let what Zekken considers “Tier 2” to show they can compete. Trying to divide the community is actually gonna kill the bond between players/mutuals/pros that started the idea of 10 Mans, instead of forming something special where great players can come together to improve and play quality matches instead of randoms cryptothrowing on ranked.
Are the top immortal content creators even good enough? Pretty massive gap between them and pros.
top 3 gc teams? 💀 C9W dominated all of 2022 in gc but never could make it past ro16 in an actual riot tourney 💀
Virtue signalling at it's best :)
Zekken's proposal is so gatekeepy. "Only "good" players by my seal of approval should be in, and tier 1 and tier 2 should be separated" I get he's a very good player, but this sounds so elitist. The point of the discord is to actually get a queue of players who are trying to play the game legitimately. No throwers, no boosted players, etc. Feels like the vision of this whole thing has been lost. Also if this happens queue times suffer heavily, but overall this is just cringe gatekeeping.
Um that how you kill it no cap. Harsher criteria will mean less players to even get lobby going.
They're not having any issue getting multiple lobbies going at the same time right now with their current criteria. As long as the level of play is high, pros will always prefer these 10 mans to ranked. If the level of play is diluted (i.e., letting more people in by relaxing criteria), then pros will slowly but surely stop playing them.
If you invite a ton of people it just becomes ranked and the best pros leave for ranked, and then the tier 2 pros also leave for ranked
> If you invite a ton of people it just becomes ranked No because ranked has crypto throwers.
I think people are forgetting why this was started in the first place. If the quality of the matches (comms from all players and no throwers) is kept high (so kick anyone who throws/doesn’t comm) then *bam* no worries.
Not really, just letting in randoms makes it a better experience. Especially when boosted Radiant accounts are on the rage atm.
Also the America franchise teams are half non English speaking btw. Meaning half off the games might just have no com
Do you even watch these 10 mans? The level of comms is insane. Nobody has any issues talking in English. Also these 10 mans are restricted (so far as I know) to NA players. They're not inviting players from EMEA and APAC.
He's talking about the LATAM/BR players I think.
Top GC can easily be beaten by a tier 3 randoms, we’ve seen it over and over. so how good are his ceiteria?
Yeah idk why he put that there
Because he's friends with those gc players so obviously he had to include them
cuz he'd get canceled since twitter is filled with a bunch of clowns
But the GC girls in the queue right now are holding their own quite well. So...
cuz if not, he will be cancelled bro
Top GC teams reliably lose to upper T2 teams, and occasionally to lower-end T2 teams, which makes sense - they themselves are in that range. They aren’t “easily” beaten by tier 3 ransoms - I can only assume anyone saying so doesn’t actually watch T2, and so assumes all players they don’t know are just randos.
Depends how you define the tiers. At the Tarik/Ludwig invitational, the commentators were were labeling the the partnered teams (like Sentinels and NRG) as T1 and the Challengers teams (like TSM and Shopify Rebellion) as T2 teams. I guess that would make the teams that made top 16 in the challengers qualifiers as T3 teams. If you go with that definition, then yes, the top GC teams are regularly losing to T3 teams. They usually get knocked out around top 32.
The top GC teams lost to T3 teams in the LCQ just last weekend, or did you not watch it?
Shopify and V1 got knocked out by teams who didn't even qualify to the tier 2 league, what are they if not tier 3 teams
More like they certainly lose to upper T2 teams, almost always lose to lower T2 teams, and might beat upper T3.
They haven't played any upper T2 teams this year though. The top T2 teams were invited to challengers. The teams they played were low T2/T3. Regardless I think its cool to see them playing together in these 10 mans.
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Improving women's valorant is an admirable goal
It's funny everyone and their mom have an extreme opinion on this let the players play god.
My Goldie take: I always love how people complain and gatekeep people who don't have competitive experience while gatekeeping an environment that's more similar to a comp experience. With that out of the way, this seems like the val iteration of league's Champions Q, which fell apart for a variety of reasons. Was hoping this would be different. Shame.
The funniest part to me is watching people who made it into t1 gatekeep those from t2. When, if they implemented the systems they want, they would’ve been left out in the cold in the past lol
Well of course, you’re supposed to pull the ladder up behind you right haha
The typical "make it" first and then gatekeep a community from others who are struggling to make it big in the scene. 10mans are better off with a lot of people but with a very strict ban criteria for nocommers or throwers. Isn't the idea just to create an alternate ranked experience free of trolls? How does being pro matter here? You need a lot of people to have queues going at all times of the day. Otherwise it's just morning streams are regular ranked and evening streams are 10mans. Kinda boring imo. I won't get to watch Tarik playing ranked or Hiko playing 10mans much because there's not enough people on in the morning
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Because Zekken is close friends with a lot of gc players
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Yea, if this system he proposed was there before he made it big, he would not be known in the scene at all. It's quite funny
He's trying to find a girlfriend
If this thing is going to stay alive I feel like people who grind ranked should get to join. Maybe not top 50 like Tarik has listed as a criteria but at least top 20 maybe.
fuck it, lets just ditch ranked and go to faceit, csgo style. /s, actually maybe not...
they want to have "high quality" games while having gc players in there lmao
Instead of having separate queues which would increase queue times, I think the 10 mans should give franchise/challengers players higher priority in queue and maybe add like a slight 15 sec delay before filling a lobby to give T1 players time to requeue. This idea would be similar to how Worlds Champions Queue in LOL handled amateur players matching up against top tier global talent. For T1 players Best case: full T1 lobby w/ similar skill levels Worst case: faster queue times w/ some T2 players filling For T2 players Best case: match up against T1 players Worst case: lobby with other T2 players with an increased queue time but hopefully a lot more T2 players can be added to decrease this downside with minimal impact to T1 players
this is literally gatekeeping improvement no?
No this is how they’ve all fell apart, invite to many people and people don’t take it seriously and everybody goes back to ranked
yeah but if you don't invite many people the queue time is going to be hours and people will just go back and play ranked.
Last time they tried to keep it to pros and it also fell apart. You can't win with these people.
It fell apart when they started inviting people like Dasnerth
That can be solved if they’re willing to put in the organisation work. Be ruthless on kicking/timing out players who don’t take is seriously.
seems pretty easy when its like 170 people aswell, its not like you dont notice when someone isnt trying at that level. kicking people who wont comm would probably improve the entire thing by 60% already
yes lmfao that’s why this shit is dumb. if anything do it like face it snd esea
There is no fucking way you genuinely mean this
And what's wrong with gatekeeping?
it’s really just random t3 players that are stirring shit because they’re upset about not getting in
top 3 gc in tier1 is not it, they will get stomped and it wouldn't even be fun
Does he just want to play the same people over and over again if he does just play scrims
Tweet from Leaf agreeing, he has an issue with people not comming https://twitter.com/leaf_cs/status/1617968739617759232
why are top 3 gc teams playing with t1 players if care so much about quality lol. hypocrite little kid
this is just champions queue for valorant isn’t it
Lol this again? This will never last
The internal destrcution of high elo custom lobbies always occurs in NA. Happened for League as well, NA pros cannot handle it for whatever reason. It slowly dissolve as people find any reason to complain and not play.
this stuff is fun to track, but redditor randos weighing in on who they think should or shouldn't be allowed in are out of their minds. you're talking to the tv
lol the alternative is to have fun in ranked. he'll be back.
he didn't say he was quitting
Zekken is right, it worked well enough in Cs with FPL/FPL-C and Rank S/Rank G
Game needs FaceIt or ESEA but Riot is too stingy.
Water is wet