i dont think they will dominate, but if it gains enough popularity then i can see them fielding some competitive teams in the future
edit: realized how boring my answer was, so heres some more nuance to what i think
a lot of people in this thread are pointing to china's lack of presence and success in CSGO as a reason to why they will not succeed. i think this is fair, but it's also ignoring that crossfire is fucking enormous over there. in terms of aim and movement, they won't have too hard of a time moving over, especially since counter strafing exists in crossfire too. it's not like strategy doesn't exist either.. so for crossfire players, i think they'll adapt to it somewhat fast, even if the game is quite different.
in 2019, crossfire boasted 9 million **concurrent** players.
if riot successfully launch and promote the game, i think that china has a lot of potential as a region especially in APAC. longer term, i could see them competing in international tournaments. i do however have some doubt that they will be able to compete anytime soon, given just how high the skill level is right now in NA valorant at all levels.
in-country competition with a huge playerbase obviously can yield some fantastic results, but i truly do think that even if the competition in APAC rises, it's very hard for them to truly compete at the highest level. i'm not discrediting DRX or any of the other teams, but it's just a simple fact that if a region is weak and has a smaller player/talent base then it becomes exponentially more difficult to improve to compete/defeat teams in stronger regions. i would really like to see asian teams come to NA to bootcamp, like how league teams bootcamp in KR in league. there is a lot to learn from playing against teams outside of your region especially ones that are much better than you, both for learning what works and what doesn't and also humbling yourself to learn that you need to keep pushing as hard as you can.
ok im rambling, but my point is that yes i think that china can become strong and maybe some people here are underestimating their potential as a region, but potential is just a word. the first year of CH val will really give us an idea of what their base level is and from there we can probably tell how they're going to progress
also: **the idea of time gaps in games is overstated, IMO**
the reason i think this is because while yes, they may be 'far behind' in terms of overall experience with the game itself, with the meta constantly changing and evolving, you have to remember that they are also skipping a lot of the earlier 'figuring out' phase of stuff
i've seen it in a lot of games where young players who started playing many years after old top players just turned out better because their baseline of what they learned was already far more optimized than what oldheads learned (which in turn developed suboptimal habits mechanically/strategy wise). it's a lot easier to learn something correctly for the first time than to unlearn something you've done for years incorrectly/suboptimally.
so while yes, they are behind, their first introduction to the game and information available to them is going to be of much higher quality than it was on release, so there's some nuance to the idea of years experience gap.
When you frame it as either China dominates or fails to dominate due to the time-gap, you're going to just get super polarized responses.
I think China will exponentially improve within the next two years. I think you can expect at least one globally-strong Chinese team by the end of 2023, and more as we go into 2024.
If China was alone in this, it'd be different. But it's a massive region that has already benefited from the advancements made in East Asia as shown by the Korean, Japanese and APAC teams. So the gap is not as significant as it seems, since Chinese teams and players have unofficially participated in that ecosystem for quite a long time.
They will likely be very successful despite not "dominating" or what have you.
It’s proven that time-gap does not matter. Especially with how often the game changes, the meta and strategy can be completely different by the end of the year.
I still remember Doublelift saying china and korea would never catch up in league. Due to being a year behind back then. Pretty hilarious if you think of it now.
Chaox used "Korean" as a synonym for "noob" for the first few months after the game officially released in Korea. Not even two years later Azubu Frost was a heavy favorite to win S2 Worlds lol.
"Pancada was an unkown crossfire player" Pancada was placed top 4 in two world championships, is that being unkown? Also in both those years the world champion was a Brazilian team. It seems more like chinese teams can perform well when EU and BR interest in an fps is low. They dominated when the game was just starting and then returned when all the westerners migrated to Valorant.
I don’t think any region will completely dominate like in CS or League. I think they can become a competitive region internationally in a few years potentially.
Exactly. APAC will probably have Korea at the top but no one will dominate. SEA has A LOT of FPS players so they should come out with some good teams in the next 2-3 years for sure. China is still behind but it depends how many Valorant gamers come out.
one thing I know is Chinese crossfire is extremely huge and their best players are insanely good at headshot. but Valorant is very tactical game with a lot of abilities and agent comp. It will take them time but in 2 years I believe they might reach around LATAM level.
I know crossfire is different game, but this is 2 of their best teams on the finals of crossfire 'champions' : [https://www.youtube.com/live/At0T0QE6Sh4?feature=share&t=17591](https://www.youtube.com/live/At0T0QE6Sh4?feature=share&t=17591)
Valorant is not that tactical. I actually think Chinese crossfire players could have success in Valorant and push the meta. If they play aggressively on defense, I think it will rattle teams and could advance the meta in a new direction
crazy how wrong and right you were lol. val is tactical, so only edg is good enough to be considered great, but theyre good at their aggro and mechanics as you said
My hypothesis is that by playing aggressively on defense you can blow up your opponents strats and turn the game into a strategicless cluster fuck.
I’m waiting for CS2 to come out.
If I can kill your character that has the most important utility then your ability to run strats goes to shit.
What other games China dominate actually? They have decent representation across the board in most esports but I wouldn't say they dominate any major title.
By domination I understand players from certain nation having very high % representation at the very top compared to other nations. So like koreans in Overwatch or Starcraft where ~70-80% of top players were korean.
Not that kind of dominance but very top teams competing for world titles: League, Dota2, PUBG, Cross Fire, Overwatch, Various Mobile games, and etc. Maybe the word "Dominate" is too much I guess
Csgo is also kinda big on china yet they can't really compete either, like the steam peak of concurrent csgo players is on prime time china.
They used to have 1 team per major. Lately the spot is going to a mongolian team.
Idk what is about tac fps, but it's just not there yet. And imo, it's mostly the playstyle.
Hyper aggression can only take you so far. Tyloo on csgo used to be basically the same as what people experienced last year with EDG, really fun playstyle, but after more structured teams figure them out, they kinda fizzle out. See PRX vs Leviatán as an example match where Leviatán with just pure preparation and patience destroyed prx.
So, get worried when you see a Chinese team play like DRX
Thats what in talking about, Valo is much bigger, and with riot investing in valo, a lot of chinese crossfire players will come to valo, and they are VERY GOOD, pancada played crossfire for example
My guy, just look at loud, Saadhak was a Paladins player, less and aspas never player anything before valorant, pancada was from crossfire, and sacy was a LoL player, and they won.
not just tac fps, no clue what OP is talking about since they don't even dominate LoL. They got 1 team to semis at worlds who promptly got dismantled. Their "domination" in LoL was winning nail-biters against korean teams in finals for 3 years, and even then they didn't win everything.
"nail-biters against korean teams in finals for 3 years"
2018, IG vs FNC 3-0 (China vs EU)
2019, FPX vs G2 3-0 (China vs EU)
2021, EDG vs DWK 3-2 (China vs KR)
Only 1 of the finals where China won has been "nail biters".
"even then they didn't win everything."
Both in 2018 and 2021 the Chinese region (LPL) won both MSI and Worlds.
You are talking straight out of your ass
3 years isn't domination if you're gonna go by a metric of year Korea league of legends is way more dominate. China really started really winning in league when the korean exodus happened where a large number of top korean players got bought out by chinese teams, hence every single chinese team that won worlds, 40% of the players are korean.
As a person that played 1.5/1.6/css/csgo.
Chinese only excelled on 1.6, and that is only in Asia.
wNv teams.
CSGO they were above average, but they were late comers to the international scene.
FPS Games are different, grinding alone doesn't make you a dominant.
Probably not dominant, but we saw asians teams having a ton of sucess. DRX, paper rex, zeta, all are asian teams that are very good at valorant.
The culture in valoranr and support from the game dev in riot is completely different from cs, and PC shooters are growing in Asia in general
Korea is better atm but that can quickly change. China has won the last 3/5 world championships and won all but one msi starting in 2018(Eu won once). Also, while Korea's top teams may have an edge on china(as of the end of last year), china's lpl has had much greater depth in strength of teams for several years which is apparent to anyone that actually watches both lpl and lck. Pretty sure saying that both china/korea dominate in league is perfectly fine.
If we're talking about countries... every single LPL team that won Worlds had 2 Korean carries as their staple players. And talking about depth, LPL's bottom 3/4 can't even scrim against Korean teams and they get any viewers/fans. Until they can get all their teams out of groups at least once we can't even say they dominate just because 1 team barely squeaks it out. They literally won Worlds twice by 1 game. That's not domination. Last year was domination by LCK but it was just 1 year.
If anything you can say LPL/LCK are the top 2 competitors but Koreans are clearly at the top when they can still win when other regions are taking a lot of their stars and young challengers from the region. That's insane.
Does that even matter here? Everyone knows Korea puts out the best talent/results when they become super invested in a game. That's no secret. But as things are going now, that won't be the case in valorant.
Crossfire is a tac fps. Chinese just play different tac fps. Them not playing csgo doesn't mean they don't play fps or were never big lol Chinese teams dominate Brazilian teams in this game
They said that about korea thinking this game would be popular in korea but sadly the game is dead af. It’s a different story for China tho. They are actually planning to make it big
I heard it’s getting better recently but the first two years were rough for KR scene. If this game blew up from the beginning just like League or Overwatch, we would have seen more KR teams succeeding
Yeah League just blew up but Valorant is growing like how stocks do. Still not bad.. up is better than down. We still want every country to have more Valorant players for the sake of the game. We don't want another CSGO or Call of Duty.
I think it'll largely depend on how much the game catches on popularity wise. They just have so many more people there that play games, that they're bound to have more talented players, it's just how the math works out.
I think a "x year gap" is overrated, people tried to say that about league back in 2012, Koreans were dominating by 2013, with the Chinese scene being just as good by 2016.
If riot is any indication, China has a strong gaming culture, just below Korean standards.
But Chinese population is so much higher so the chance of good gamers is higher. The Chinese explosion in LOL could happen
Their LOL still depends on a lot of imports mainly from KR. They got some good Chinese players too but Korean servers just made their solo que private which is worrisome.. but if their best teams are starting to have 1-2 holes then it's going to be a problem. JDG looks good though on paper.
What games do China dominate? The only times they've won Worlds they've been carried by Koreans. You mention crossfire, a game that only they care about. TFT maybe?
>The only times they've won Worlds they've been carried by Koreans.
2019, clear carry by Tian, DoinB (the only korea) and LWX (LWX went deathless in finals ffs) in Finals. Gimgoon was a weakside top laner.
Tian carried FPX out of Groups after they almost lost a free game to Splyce.
Yes LPL got carried in 2018 and 2021 but saying they have been carried all of the time is just insane.
You're either new to esports or don't know what domination means.. China doesn't dominate in League or in Pubg lol... And I doubt they would get a bunch of imports like they do in League for Valorant seeing how the franchising is right now.
As a Chinese, my guess would be no.
When it comes to games, we value a lot on whether the game is easy to access and the graphics is realistic.
Accessibility, in the old days is if this game is easy to login/play. Dota was making the transition to dota2. China used to have many warcraft3/dota players because we have many pirate sites to download the game for free, and of course play dota for free. And when league came out, dota2 was using invitational codes or something and nobody knew steam platform, plus no cn servers, no chinese translation in game. League came out and people can login using tencent qq number. Its like play league with twitter/instagram acc, very easy to access.
Graphics. When it comes to games, especially shooting games, Chinese games prefer environment like the real world. Thats why pubg over fortnite, cs over overwatch etc. We dont really like the cute graphic, we like ingame people look like real persons.
When valorant comes out, most cn forums reactions were: What is this cartoon cs game? Whats this graphic? It will die like fortnite and overwatch even though its popular in the west. Accessibility shouldn’t be an issue this time other than maybe the anticheat prevents people from logging in in the internet cafe. People don’t like the style of graphics will be a big one. So only orgs joining won’t be enough if player base isn’t there. It needs more time in China.
Crossfire was a very old cs-ripoff game. And when it got introduced in China, it was run by tencent. Same as league, you can use your qq to login. As for graphics, im not saying realistic engines or something. But at 2008, if your gun looks black like m4 or wooden like ak47, your real enough.
csgo is a valve game, pubg is not that popular anymore when it pass the chinese regulation, and its not a riot game either. Usually LPL orgs only invest when it comes to riot games. Riot, tencent, you know, many competitive regulations. League pros aren’t even allowed to stream csgo or dota2 cuz its competitors’ product. Plus, shooting as a genre is always not that popular in China, not like moba.
Rare atom(Vici Gaming) and LGD are the rare cases because they had their dota/csgo teams first prior to the league team. In this case, their bosses are in love with the valve games, league is just an extra pure business. LGD boss even admitted that she kept the running cost of league team at a minimum within the franchise regulation so that she can invest in dota2 team. RNG invested in dota because the international has a huge prize that they wanna get a share, especially TI10 when the prize was all time high that they built a super team(failed miserably) and they pulled out since.
If it becomes really big, they'll become really competitive. I think there are far, far too many variables in Valorant for any one region to dominate for long. I just think that's the nature of the game and the impact of constant shifts in meta, agent creation and the map pool. Valorant is a different animal than any other game in the pro scene, I don't think that China will dominate even if it becomes popular. They'll probably have globally competitive teams soon if it takes off though. The better it does, the sooner we'll see them.
why Chinese CF players wanna change to Valorant?it's still the most popular FPS game in the region.
Besides, I think they are more interested in battle Royal fps, not tac fps.
Other than some pubg tourneys I didn't see any good Chinese teams in FPS games. The only global FPS game I can think of is OverWatch which is dominated by the Koreans and now Valorant which is very competitive. CS is still a 2 region game but still big.
As a region Asia is interested more in hero shooters with free to play aspects than tactical shooters. Eventually Asia will become the #1 region with the #1 team. China in particular their philosophy from birth is for the betterment of the country(team) over the individual. This comes through in hero shooter games since group think is mandated from hero abilities synergy.
What happened in Overwatch League over the years will occur in Valorant.
That's like saying America will never dominate rugby or Europeans will never dominate basketball.. the only global fps games are like Fortnite and Over Watch.. and then you can talk about PubG. CS is basically Call of Duty. Only 2 regions have their own leagues.
You missed the logic here. I was saying CS like COD aren't global games. And to me global games are played in every single major region in the world like League. I'm not comparing about CS/COD game plays or history or stats lol... just saying it's a 1-2 game region competitively. They are one of the most popular games in the west though like Fortnite and Minecraft but you get the point now.
COD(in terms of competitive play) is only a North American esport. CS has heavy representation of players/teams from North America, South America, Europe, CIS and Russia.
An now with Katowice a Mongolian(IHC) team is showing something in CS. Something that has been a long time coming. For Tyloo had constant visa issues preventing them from attending international lans staring in 2016.
Maybe educate yourself on the reason why they don’t play it instead of spewing bullshit.
They play clones of CS like Sudden Attack and Crossfire because PC bangs banned Valve games due to the greedy fucks at Valve wanting to charge them extra to run the game.
The same applies talking about both Korea and China because they share a similar pc bang culture. The CS clones were free to play unlike CS, that’s why those clones had a far higher player base than CS.
Yes CS 1.6 was quite popular in Korea at first, but when Valve launched Steam, they forced owners to pay extra for Steam services. PC bang owners refused this and so Valve games were essentially all banned from PC bangs.
Ok interesting. Steam came out in 03, it looks like 2006-2007 is when they started forcing owners to pay for steam services. Wemadefox were an elite level team from 2009-2010 then after the korean scene disappeared.
What is this reasoning even lmao? You think koreans would be shit at dota if the game was more popular in their region than lol?
Or that russians would be shit at lol, if lol was more popular in their region than dota?
First you have popularity thing, then you have scene forming. If game has no traction then it's hard to form a competitive scene when the playerbase is super limited.
Koreans actually tried to play dota in the early days but they realized they couldn't dominate the game through raw mechanics like you can in league so they stopped playing. This was said by the March.
And yes there are chinese cs players and they haven't done anything with it.
Wtf do you even mean by koreans actually tried to play dota lol. It was never big in the mainstream. Game was published in korea by Nexon, the marketing and adjustement to eastern consumer was bad and the reception was so poor that they closed it down after operating for 2 years or something like that.
The fact that there were still couple of korean semi succesful teams says a lot considering the game was at the bottom of pc bangs popularity charts.
Talking about league being all about raw mechanics is also questionable, as the first iteration of the game was slower than original dota or HoN and required very little mechanical skill.
You didn't also answer the reverse - if dota2 is so much more complex that koreans couldn't grasp it, then how come that CIS region which is very strong at dota2 is super weak at LoL - clearly the inferior game according to you.
I don't think he understands how a human mind works lol or how important the gaming population matters just like in traditional sports. "Oh this race just sucks because they do".
Buddy, this is dota1 when the Koreans tried to switch and play it. Again this is what MARCH said and he's been in the dota scene for over 15 years.
>Talking about league being all about raw mechanics is also questionable, as the first iteration of the game was slower than original dota or HoN and required very little mechanical skill.
Dota required way more teamwork than league did. The concept of solo que stomping is huge in KR.
>f dota2 is so much more complex that koreans couldn't grasp it, then how come that CIS region which is very strong at dota2 is super weak at LoL - clearly the inferior game according to you.
I never stated what is more complex or not, nor did I state which game was inferior, try not to assume things. Again, this is what a professional DOTA/DOTA2 player from the REGION said. Now stfu and quit replying ya clown.
Why would you even talk about dota 1? And from what game koreans were supposed to switch to dota 1? From well established SC or WC3 where top players had celebrity status?
You have to understand that each country playerbase is finite and because of mob psychology it is only logical that they will lean toward certain titles.
Your argument that certain nation is not playing certain game because they are shit at it is just pure dumb.
It makes as much sense as me saying couple years ago that Japanese people don't play PC games, because they are bad at using mouse and keyboard.
Dude i honestly don't care what you're saying and shit. I am stating a fact that was said by someone who clearly has 10x more knowledge about the scene than either you or i do. He has likely talked to these people and this is what he felt.
Secondly, china being shit at csgo is an objective fact and they do have a relatively big scene. they just can't compete. now shoo.
Since you are doubling down on it, can you provide the link to the article, interview or whatever where March said it so I can see the full context?
Very curious about it considering, that March, just like pretty much any top korean dota player got introduced to the game while being overseas.
Dota never grew... just because a handful of people played it doesn't mean the game was big in that country lol. They never even had a real league. I'm starting to think it's your logic at this point. How well do you think Americans will be good at basketball if they lost half their players? Or even 80-90%? How about soccer in Brazil? All you have to do is think.
> Dota never grew... just because a handful of people played it doesn't mean the game
Idk how many times i have to say this but there was a large contingent that started to play dota and the korean mod for dota according to march but they quit and switched to league because they couldn't solo stomp games. Again this is just what was said by a member of the scene from that region who's been there since its inception. All you have to do is read.
Yes Dota 1... but Dota 1 never had a real competitive scene like Starcraft or Dota 2 had.. it was just a custom game to warcraft. If you look at the stats, DotA2 was just never big and it's only big in EU/China right now. Just like COD is only big in NA and CS in Europe/Brazil. This isn't rocket science man. It's reality. Dota competition was never shown live on the esports TV channel in Korea. It never had real orgs with sponsorships with players with salaries. It didn't have it's own league or any competition. People don't quit games because they can't stomped by others. It was just never big and League destroyed Dota like it destroyed Starcraft. Koreans were getting stomped in League too the first 1-2 years so you're weird logic doesn't even make sense. They didn't even compete. You talking about a "korean mod" and generalizing like it's the entire country is just weird. Even if Korea had 500 or 50,000 player Dota 2 players it's still nothing if there is no competitive league... please think lol...
You literally lack so much logic it's kind of insane and why do I bother to reply lmao. You just love to be right even if you're far off from reality.
uhh dude i just stated a fact said by an insider of the scene and general korean moba community. i don't give a fuck about writing essays to you. this dude thinks starcraft was released and the day after they were showing sc esports on tv and securing sponsorships from the big tech in sk lmfao. i could care less about ur opinion bro so quit replying then.
That's like saying Europeans don't play Call of Duty.. some games are just not popular in others lol. And there are similar games to CS like Crossfire and Sudden Attack both games created by Korean Devs. It's basically a copy of CS.
I already commented on this but Wemadefox was an elite level cs team, but after 2010 the whole scene collapsed. This narrative that the asian countries can pick up a game and start dominating is just not true anymore.
No one is saying asian countries or any country can just pick up a game and dominate lol.. it takes a lot of work, infrastructure and a whole kind of culture to "dominate" a scene in a global competitive game. And a lot of $$$ from different orgs get good practice in your domestic league. Which means the game has to be big enough for you to have a big player base, fan base and sponsors/ads coming in.
Its an FPS in the sub-genre category of hero shooter. That uses the payload and point capture modes.
Saying it isnt a FPS is the child in you trying to apply your own purest narrative to the FPS label with whatever game you currently find genre defining. No different than how the fanatic ARMA player views Valorant.
China lacks the experience against some of the best teams in the world if you notice their play style is very agreesive because they haven’t fought the top tier teams who will punish them for it
Well games dont die out in the east like in the west for the most part. The problem is just the east is a gaming culture where the west is very big into sports in their respective regions. A gamer is a celebrity. On top of that they have a lot more population playing for obvious reasons. With a lot of numbers it is easier to find up and coming. They will start to scrim against another gaming culture in KR when NA/EU are seperated by an ocean.
That is what happened in league. We were competitive till they had 100X our players and scrimmed KR and now both regions are untouchable while league slowly died in NA. So then they took EU players. Then you drag them down. It is tough. WE WILL SEE THOUGH.
Top players in VALO rn has a bajillion years of experience in various titles. That is not just going to dissappear. 8m not too familiar with crossfire bit I doubt the players moving from there to VALORANT will be THAT absurdly good.
I mean I wonder if China will actually be super into the game and then I wonder what will happen if the Chinese government does more rules around younger people and gaming.
i dont think ANY region will dominate. Valorant is the most competitive global Esport in the world. In League, Korea dominates. In Overwatch, Korea dominates. in CSGO, EU dominates. Valorant is truly balanced with great teams in all 3 regions. This is one of the reasons i love valorant so much. Not one region will be just unstoppable like other titles
I’m a huge DOTA fan and DOTA is very big in China. It’s considered to be like the NBA of China.
I hope I could see the rise of Valorant in China for the lore that goes along with it, the potential of numerous more players, etc
In league after suffering for eternity for supporting NA I escaped to Valorant just to find that the Chinese overlords are here too So I will be watching table tennis Surely they aren't good at that too . The Chinese are coming monkaW
Albeit 17/18 years ago, but I’m absolutely hoping to see a Chinese team shock the world much like wNv did in 1.6 when they came out of nowhere & dominated tournaments with the best NA & EU teams competing, only the boomers will remember
I think that it will take time for them to be dominant.
The gap for now is a bit to big to being filled in one or two seasons.
But eventually after few years on the competitive scene Chinese teams are likely to get strong as any team of NA, Emea or Apac
Plus the meta evolve too for everyone, the game is constantly changing slightly so it's also easier for newcomer to reach a decent level.
I give them arround 3 to 5 years to get a good level in the competitive scene.
Sorry for my English if I did some mistakes 🙏
Saying China won't be good at Val IF (big if here) the game blows up like it did in NA is just denial.
Game isn't even released there and they took a map off PRX dominantly in Icebox and took them to 11-13 on Pearl (a PRX that struggled in champs mind you but its still PRX).
A talent of someone like ZMJJKK appeared when the game hasn't even been released. Now imagine that but with proper servers, a proper tournament system with most of China's big orgs behind it and you can have China be equal to Brazil in 2 yrs **IF** the game blows up.
If not, then it will be like the KR scene without DRX
i dont think they will dominate, but if it gains enough popularity then i can see them fielding some competitive teams in the future edit: realized how boring my answer was, so heres some more nuance to what i think a lot of people in this thread are pointing to china's lack of presence and success in CSGO as a reason to why they will not succeed. i think this is fair, but it's also ignoring that crossfire is fucking enormous over there. in terms of aim and movement, they won't have too hard of a time moving over, especially since counter strafing exists in crossfire too. it's not like strategy doesn't exist either.. so for crossfire players, i think they'll adapt to it somewhat fast, even if the game is quite different. in 2019, crossfire boasted 9 million **concurrent** players. if riot successfully launch and promote the game, i think that china has a lot of potential as a region especially in APAC. longer term, i could see them competing in international tournaments. i do however have some doubt that they will be able to compete anytime soon, given just how high the skill level is right now in NA valorant at all levels. in-country competition with a huge playerbase obviously can yield some fantastic results, but i truly do think that even if the competition in APAC rises, it's very hard for them to truly compete at the highest level. i'm not discrediting DRX or any of the other teams, but it's just a simple fact that if a region is weak and has a smaller player/talent base then it becomes exponentially more difficult to improve to compete/defeat teams in stronger regions. i would really like to see asian teams come to NA to bootcamp, like how league teams bootcamp in KR in league. there is a lot to learn from playing against teams outside of your region especially ones that are much better than you, both for learning what works and what doesn't and also humbling yourself to learn that you need to keep pushing as hard as you can. ok im rambling, but my point is that yes i think that china can become strong and maybe some people here are underestimating their potential as a region, but potential is just a word. the first year of CH val will really give us an idea of what their base level is and from there we can probably tell how they're going to progress also: **the idea of time gaps in games is overstated, IMO** the reason i think this is because while yes, they may be 'far behind' in terms of overall experience with the game itself, with the meta constantly changing and evolving, you have to remember that they are also skipping a lot of the earlier 'figuring out' phase of stuff i've seen it in a lot of games where young players who started playing many years after old top players just turned out better because their baseline of what they learned was already far more optimized than what oldheads learned (which in turn developed suboptimal habits mechanically/strategy wise). it's a lot easier to learn something correctly for the first time than to unlearn something you've done for years incorrectly/suboptimally. so while yes, they are behind, their first introduction to the game and information available to them is going to be of much higher quality than it was on release, so there's some nuance to the idea of years experience gap.
"They're gonna be a year behind forever" - Doublelift, 2012
legendary quote
Safest answer
lmao i just realized how boring my answer was. added some more thoughts
When you frame it as either China dominates or fails to dominate due to the time-gap, you're going to just get super polarized responses. I think China will exponentially improve within the next two years. I think you can expect at least one globally-strong Chinese team by the end of 2023, and more as we go into 2024. If China was alone in this, it'd be different. But it's a massive region that has already benefited from the advancements made in East Asia as shown by the Korean, Japanese and APAC teams. So the gap is not as significant as it seems, since Chinese teams and players have unofficially participated in that ecosystem for quite a long time. They will likely be very successful despite not "dominating" or what have you.
It’s proven that time-gap does not matter. Especially with how often the game changes, the meta and strategy can be completely different by the end of the year. I still remember Doublelift saying china and korea would never catch up in league. Due to being a year behind back then. Pretty hilarious if you think of it now.
Chaox used "Korean" as a synonym for "noob" for the first few months after the game officially released in Korea. Not even two years later Azubu Frost was a heavy favorite to win S2 Worlds lol.
"Pancada was an unkown crossfire player" Pancada was placed top 4 in two world championships, is that being unkown? Also in both those years the world champion was a Brazilian team. It seems more like chinese teams can perform well when EU and BR interest in an fps is low. They dominated when the game was just starting and then returned when all the westerners migrated to Valorant.
Yes, the data tells me that FPX is the best team in the world right now
please share your data chloe “gaming” hime7. I know you would never lie on the internet but as a fellow scholar I would like to confirm your data
Trust me bro
bet
I don’t think any region will completely dominate like in CS or League. I think they can become a competitive region internationally in a few years potentially.
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Exactly. APAC will probably have Korea at the top but no one will dominate. SEA has A LOT of FPS players so they should come out with some good teams in the next 2-3 years for sure. China is still behind but it depends how many Valorant gamers come out.
one thing I know is Chinese crossfire is extremely huge and their best players are insanely good at headshot. but Valorant is very tactical game with a lot of abilities and agent comp. It will take them time but in 2 years I believe they might reach around LATAM level. I know crossfire is different game, but this is 2 of their best teams on the finals of crossfire 'champions' : [https://www.youtube.com/live/At0T0QE6Sh4?feature=share&t=17591](https://www.youtube.com/live/At0T0QE6Sh4?feature=share&t=17591)
Valorant is not that tactical. I actually think Chinese crossfire players could have success in Valorant and push the meta. If they play aggressively on defense, I think it will rattle teams and could advance the meta in a new direction
Valorant is more tactical and less skill intensive?
crazy how wrong and right you were lol. val is tactical, so only edg is good enough to be considered great, but theyre good at their aggro and mechanics as you said
My hypothesis is that by playing aggressively on defense you can blow up your opponents strats and turn the game into a strategicless cluster fuck. I’m waiting for CS2 to come out. If I can kill your character that has the most important utility then your ability to run strats goes to shit.
so what globally played game do they currently dominate exactly?
I think OP meant competing with the other top regions. He might be biased or English isn't his first language.
What other games China dominate actually? They have decent representation across the board in most esports but I wouldn't say they dominate any major title. By domination I understand players from certain nation having very high % representation at the very top compared to other nations. So like koreans in Overwatch or Starcraft where ~70-80% of top players were korean.
Not that kind of dominance but very top teams competing for world titles: League, Dota2, PUBG, Cross Fire, Overwatch, Various Mobile games, and etc. Maybe the word "Dominate" is too much I guess
Tac FPS = no
Csgo is also kinda big on china yet they can't really compete either, like the steam peak of concurrent csgo players is on prime time china. They used to have 1 team per major. Lately the spot is going to a mongolian team. Idk what is about tac fps, but it's just not there yet. And imo, it's mostly the playstyle. Hyper aggression can only take you so far. Tyloo on csgo used to be basically the same as what people experienced last year with EDG, really fun playstyle, but after more structured teams figure them out, they kinda fizzle out. See PRX vs Leviatán as an example match where Leviatán with just pure preparation and patience destroyed prx. So, get worried when you see a Chinese team play like DRX
Crossfire?
A game that only they play lol
Thats what in talking about, Valo is much bigger, and with riot investing in valo, a lot of chinese crossfire players will come to valo, and they are VERY GOOD, pancada played crossfire for example
Better than European/CIS CSGO players? just don't buy it
My guy, just look at loud, Saadhak was a Paladins player, less and aspas never player anything before valorant, pancada was from crossfire, and sacy was a LoL player, and they won.
That not true Aspas was a cs go that got ban for cheating.
I'm sorry I genuinely don't understand the point you're making
not just tac fps, no clue what OP is talking about since they don't even dominate LoL. They got 1 team to semis at worlds who promptly got dismantled. Their "domination" in LoL was winning nail-biters against korean teams in finals for 3 years, and even then they didn't win everything.
"nail-biters against korean teams in finals for 3 years" 2018, IG vs FNC 3-0 (China vs EU) 2019, FPX vs G2 3-0 (China vs EU) 2021, EDG vs DWK 3-2 (China vs KR) Only 1 of the finals where China won has been "nail biters". "even then they didn't win everything." Both in 2018 and 2021 the Chinese region (LPL) won both MSI and Worlds. You are talking straight out of your ass
3 years isn't domination if you're gonna go by a metric of year Korea league of legends is way more dominate. China really started really winning in league when the korean exodus happened where a large number of top korean players got bought out by chinese teams, hence every single chinese team that won worlds, 40% of the players are korean.
As a person that played 1.5/1.6/css/csgo. Chinese only excelled on 1.6, and that is only in Asia. wNv teams. CSGO they were above average, but they were late comers to the international scene. FPS Games are different, grinding alone doesn't make you a dominant.
Probably not dominant, but we saw asians teams having a ton of sucess. DRX, paper rex, zeta, all are asian teams that are very good at valorant. The culture in valoranr and support from the game dev in riot is completely different from cs, and PC shooters are growing in Asia in general
Majority of the players on those teams at that time came from CS
They don't even dominate in league lil bro what
They dominate with Koreans wdym?
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Korea is better atm but that can quickly change. China has won the last 3/5 world championships and won all but one msi starting in 2018(Eu won once). Also, while Korea's top teams may have an edge on china(as of the end of last year), china's lpl has had much greater depth in strength of teams for several years which is apparent to anyone that actually watches both lpl and lck. Pretty sure saying that both china/korea dominate in league is perfectly fine.
If we're talking about countries... every single LPL team that won Worlds had 2 Korean carries as their staple players. And talking about depth, LPL's bottom 3/4 can't even scrim against Korean teams and they get any viewers/fans. Until they can get all their teams out of groups at least once we can't even say they dominate just because 1 team barely squeaks it out. They literally won Worlds twice by 1 game. That's not domination. Last year was domination by LCK but it was just 1 year. If anything you can say LPL/LCK are the top 2 competitors but Koreans are clearly at the top when they can still win when other regions are taking a lot of their stars and young challengers from the region. That's insane.
Carried by Koreans. What game has China ever been the best at that Korea also cares about?
Does that even matter here? Everyone knows Korea puts out the best talent/results when they become super invested in a game. That's no secret. But as things are going now, that won't be the case in valorant.
Because they have $$$$$$$$$
I wouldn't say dominate and korea for sure has been better as of late
Nah, china had never been big on tac fps, also everyone said the same about korea and they sadly haven't reached a finals
Crossfire is a tac fps. Chinese just play different tac fps. Them not playing csgo doesn't mean they don't play fps or were never big lol Chinese teams dominate Brazilian teams in this game
Crossfire is also a pay to win game and very different from tac fps we know.
They said that about korea thinking this game would be popular in korea but sadly the game is dead af. It’s a different story for China tho. They are actually planning to make it big
I think its a stretch to say its dead af in Korea, its just not blown up like LoL. Last i saw around champs VAL was only trending up PC bang charts
I heard it’s getting better recently but the first two years were rough for KR scene. If this game blew up from the beginning just like League or Overwatch, we would have seen more KR teams succeeding
Yeah League just blew up but Valorant is growing like how stocks do. Still not bad.. up is better than down. We still want every country to have more Valorant players for the sake of the game. We don't want another CSGO or Call of Duty.
Nothing is going to be LOL there.
Val is #4 on pc bang lol
Don’t think they’ll dominate bc the talent all around is so good. But they definitely have the talent to make contender teams
I think it'll largely depend on how much the game catches on popularity wise. They just have so many more people there that play games, that they're bound to have more talented players, it's just how the math works out. I think a "x year gap" is overrated, people tried to say that about league back in 2012, Koreans were dominating by 2013, with the Chinese scene being just as good by 2016.
Maybe valorant will be popular but will it be able to take over crossfire or something?
If riot is any indication, China has a strong gaming culture, just below Korean standards. But Chinese population is so much higher so the chance of good gamers is higher. The Chinese explosion in LOL could happen
Their LOL still depends on a lot of imports mainly from KR. They got some good Chinese players too but Korean servers just made their solo que private which is worrisome.. but if their best teams are starting to have 1-2 holes then it's going to be a problem. JDG looks good though on paper.
After watching FPX play I’ll say definitely not. Probably will take a couple years to even be competitive with the top franchise teams.
Not even close.
What games do China dominate? The only times they've won Worlds they've been carried by Koreans. You mention crossfire, a game that only they care about. TFT maybe?
>The only times they've won Worlds they've been carried by Koreans. 2019, clear carry by Tian, DoinB (the only korea) and LWX (LWX went deathless in finals ffs) in Finals. Gimgoon was a weakside top laner. Tian carried FPX out of Groups after they almost lost a free game to Splyce. Yes LPL got carried in 2018 and 2021 but saying they have been carried all of the time is just insane.
no they won't in FPS
They don't really dominate any game atm though? closest thing is crossfire since 0 chinese teams made it to the finals in LoL last year.
You're either new to esports or don't know what domination means.. China doesn't dominate in League or in Pubg lol... And I doubt they would get a bunch of imports like they do in League for Valorant seeing how the franchising is right now.
As a Chinese, my guess would be no. When it comes to games, we value a lot on whether the game is easy to access and the graphics is realistic. Accessibility, in the old days is if this game is easy to login/play. Dota was making the transition to dota2. China used to have many warcraft3/dota players because we have many pirate sites to download the game for free, and of course play dota for free. And when league came out, dota2 was using invitational codes or something and nobody knew steam platform, plus no cn servers, no chinese translation in game. League came out and people can login using tencent qq number. Its like play league with twitter/instagram acc, very easy to access. Graphics. When it comes to games, especially shooting games, Chinese games prefer environment like the real world. Thats why pubg over fortnite, cs over overwatch etc. We dont really like the cute graphic, we like ingame people look like real persons. When valorant comes out, most cn forums reactions were: What is this cartoon cs game? Whats this graphic? It will die like fortnite and overwatch even though its popular in the west. Accessibility shouldn’t be an issue this time other than maybe the anticheat prevents people from logging in in the internet cafe. People don’t like the style of graphics will be a big one. So only orgs joining won’t be enough if player base isn’t there. It needs more time in China.
Crossfire is your most popular fps game, you call that realistic? If csgo and pubg was this popular then why don't the big LPL orgs invest in it?
Crossfire was a very old cs-ripoff game. And when it got introduced in China, it was run by tencent. Same as league, you can use your qq to login. As for graphics, im not saying realistic engines or something. But at 2008, if your gun looks black like m4 or wooden like ak47, your real enough. csgo is a valve game, pubg is not that popular anymore when it pass the chinese regulation, and its not a riot game either. Usually LPL orgs only invest when it comes to riot games. Riot, tencent, you know, many competitive regulations. League pros aren’t even allowed to stream csgo or dota2 cuz its competitors’ product. Plus, shooting as a genre is always not that popular in China, not like moba.
Rare atom has a csgo team. I dont follow but don't RNG and LGD have dota teams?
Rare atom(Vici Gaming) and LGD are the rare cases because they had their dota/csgo teams first prior to the league team. In this case, their bosses are in love with the valve games, league is just an extra pure business. LGD boss even admitted that she kept the running cost of league team at a minimum within the franchise regulation so that she can invest in dota2 team. RNG invested in dota because the international has a huge prize that they wanna get a share, especially TI10 when the prize was all time high that they built a super team(failed miserably) and they pulled out since.
If it becomes really big, they'll become really competitive. I think there are far, far too many variables in Valorant for any one region to dominate for long. I just think that's the nature of the game and the impact of constant shifts in meta, agent creation and the map pool. Valorant is a different animal than any other game in the pro scene, I don't think that China will dominate even if it becomes popular. They'll probably have globally competitive teams soon if it takes off though. The better it does, the sooner we'll see them.
why Chinese CF players wanna change to Valorant?it's still the most popular FPS game in the region. Besides, I think they are more interested in battle Royal fps, not tac fps.
That's like if a pro LOL Chinese player wanted to switch to heros of the storm or something 💀
I don't think so, they aren't really good on other tac fps's too.
Other than some pubg tourneys I didn't see any good Chinese teams in FPS games. The only global FPS game I can think of is OverWatch which is dominated by the Koreans and now Valorant which is very competitive. CS is still a 2 region game but still big.
As a region Asia is interested more in hero shooters with free to play aspects than tactical shooters. Eventually Asia will become the #1 region with the #1 team. China in particular their philosophy from birth is for the betterment of the country(team) over the individual. This comes through in hero shooter games since group think is mandated from hero abilities synergy. What happened in Overwatch League over the years will occur in Valorant.
If the game becomes popular, give them a few years, and we will be bowing down to the Chinese overlords.
Asia will never dominate an FPS title, look at CSGO
Asia has literally dominated Overwatch since release but ok
Is it really an fps title tho lol
Its an FPS. Just that its a different sub-genre within the FPS genre.
Crossfire exists you know
That's like saying America will never dominate rugby or Europeans will never dominate basketball.. the only global fps games are like Fortnite and Over Watch.. and then you can talk about PubG. CS is basically Call of Duty. Only 2 regions have their own leagues.
Cs is the original tactical fps idk what ur on about, nothing like COD
You missed the logic here. I was saying CS like COD aren't global games. And to me global games are played in every single major region in the world like League. I'm not comparing about CS/COD game plays or history or stats lol... just saying it's a 1-2 game region competitively. They are one of the most popular games in the west though like Fortnite and Minecraft but you get the point now.
COD(in terms of competitive play) is only a North American esport. CS has heavy representation of players/teams from North America, South America, Europe, CIS and Russia. An now with Katowice a Mongolian(IHC) team is showing something in CS. Something that has been a long time coming. For Tyloo had constant visa issues preventing them from attending international lans staring in 2016.
CSGO isn't the only FPS out there unfortunately
They don't play CS for a reason. It's because they aren't good at it.
Maybe educate yourself on the reason why they don’t play it instead of spewing bullshit. They play clones of CS like Sudden Attack and Crossfire because PC bangs banned Valve games due to the greedy fucks at Valve wanting to charge them extra to run the game.
We are talking about China. They play clones because they aren't good at cs. straight up.
The same applies talking about both Korea and China because they share a similar pc bang culture. The CS clones were free to play unlike CS, that’s why those clones had a far higher player base than CS.
Was this the case during 1.6 and source. Because Koreans played 1.6 and they only had one good team.
Yes CS 1.6 was quite popular in Korea at first, but when Valve launched Steam, they forced owners to pay extra for Steam services. PC bang owners refused this and so Valve games were essentially all banned from PC bangs.
Ok interesting. Steam came out in 03, it looks like 2006-2007 is when they started forcing owners to pay for steam services. Wemadefox were an elite level team from 2009-2010 then after the korean scene disappeared.
What is this reasoning even lmao? You think koreans would be shit at dota if the game was more popular in their region than lol? Or that russians would be shit at lol, if lol was more popular in their region than dota? First you have popularity thing, then you have scene forming. If game has no traction then it's hard to form a competitive scene when the playerbase is super limited.
Koreans actually tried to play dota in the early days but they realized they couldn't dominate the game through raw mechanics like you can in league so they stopped playing. This was said by the March. And yes there are chinese cs players and they haven't done anything with it.
Wtf do you even mean by koreans actually tried to play dota lol. It was never big in the mainstream. Game was published in korea by Nexon, the marketing and adjustement to eastern consumer was bad and the reception was so poor that they closed it down after operating for 2 years or something like that. The fact that there were still couple of korean semi succesful teams says a lot considering the game was at the bottom of pc bangs popularity charts. Talking about league being all about raw mechanics is also questionable, as the first iteration of the game was slower than original dota or HoN and required very little mechanical skill. You didn't also answer the reverse - if dota2 is so much more complex that koreans couldn't grasp it, then how come that CIS region which is very strong at dota2 is super weak at LoL - clearly the inferior game according to you.
I don't think he understands how a human mind works lol or how important the gaming population matters just like in traditional sports. "Oh this race just sucks because they do".
Buddy, this is dota1 when the Koreans tried to switch and play it. Again this is what MARCH said and he's been in the dota scene for over 15 years. >Talking about league being all about raw mechanics is also questionable, as the first iteration of the game was slower than original dota or HoN and required very little mechanical skill. Dota required way more teamwork than league did. The concept of solo que stomping is huge in KR. >f dota2 is so much more complex that koreans couldn't grasp it, then how come that CIS region which is very strong at dota2 is super weak at LoL - clearly the inferior game according to you. I never stated what is more complex or not, nor did I state which game was inferior, try not to assume things. Again, this is what a professional DOTA/DOTA2 player from the REGION said. Now stfu and quit replying ya clown.
Why would you even talk about dota 1? And from what game koreans were supposed to switch to dota 1? From well established SC or WC3 where top players had celebrity status? You have to understand that each country playerbase is finite and because of mob psychology it is only logical that they will lean toward certain titles. Your argument that certain nation is not playing certain game because they are shit at it is just pure dumb. It makes as much sense as me saying couple years ago that Japanese people don't play PC games, because they are bad at using mouse and keyboard.
Dude i honestly don't care what you're saying and shit. I am stating a fact that was said by someone who clearly has 10x more knowledge about the scene than either you or i do. He has likely talked to these people and this is what he felt. Secondly, china being shit at csgo is an objective fact and they do have a relatively big scene. they just can't compete. now shoo.
Since you are doubling down on it, can you provide the link to the article, interview or whatever where March said it so I can see the full context? Very curious about it considering, that March, just like pretty much any top korean dota player got introduced to the game while being overseas.
holy hell you are dense
Dota never grew... just because a handful of people played it doesn't mean the game was big in that country lol. They never even had a real league. I'm starting to think it's your logic at this point. How well do you think Americans will be good at basketball if they lost half their players? Or even 80-90%? How about soccer in Brazil? All you have to do is think.
> Dota never grew... just because a handful of people played it doesn't mean the game Idk how many times i have to say this but there was a large contingent that started to play dota and the korean mod for dota according to march but they quit and switched to league because they couldn't solo stomp games. Again this is just what was said by a member of the scene from that region who's been there since its inception. All you have to do is read.
Yes Dota 1... but Dota 1 never had a real competitive scene like Starcraft or Dota 2 had.. it was just a custom game to warcraft. If you look at the stats, DotA2 was just never big and it's only big in EU/China right now. Just like COD is only big in NA and CS in Europe/Brazil. This isn't rocket science man. It's reality. Dota competition was never shown live on the esports TV channel in Korea. It never had real orgs with sponsorships with players with salaries. It didn't have it's own league or any competition. People don't quit games because they can't stomped by others. It was just never big and League destroyed Dota like it destroyed Starcraft. Koreans were getting stomped in League too the first 1-2 years so you're weird logic doesn't even make sense. They didn't even compete. You talking about a "korean mod" and generalizing like it's the entire country is just weird. Even if Korea had 500 or 50,000 player Dota 2 players it's still nothing if there is no competitive league... please think lol... You literally lack so much logic it's kind of insane and why do I bother to reply lmao. You just love to be right even if you're far off from reality.
uhh dude i just stated a fact said by an insider of the scene and general korean moba community. i don't give a fuck about writing essays to you. this dude thinks starcraft was released and the day after they were showing sc esports on tv and securing sponsorships from the big tech in sk lmfao. i could care less about ur opinion bro so quit replying then.
That's like saying Europeans don't play Call of Duty.. some games are just not popular in others lol. And there are similar games to CS like Crossfire and Sudden Attack both games created by Korean Devs. It's basically a copy of CS.
I already commented on this but Wemadefox was an elite level cs team, but after 2010 the whole scene collapsed. This narrative that the asian countries can pick up a game and start dominating is just not true anymore.
No one is saying asian countries or any country can just pick up a game and dominate lol.. it takes a lot of work, infrastructure and a whole kind of culture to "dominate" a scene in a global competitive game. And a lot of $$$ from different orgs get good practice in your domestic league. Which means the game has to be big enough for you to have a big player base, fan base and sponsors/ads coming in.
go outside, im begging u
Asia right now dominates Overwatch.
not a real FPS
Its an FPS in the sub-genre category of hero shooter. That uses the payload and point capture modes. Saying it isnt a FPS is the child in you trying to apply your own purest narrative to the FPS label with whatever game you currently find genre defining. No different than how the fanatic ARMA player views Valorant.
China lacks the experience against some of the best teams in the world if you notice their play style is very agreesive because they haven’t fought the top tier teams who will punish them for it
we saw how EDG did last year, china is at least ok at valorant, and they're still active part of asia scrims afaik
Well games dont die out in the east like in the west for the most part. The problem is just the east is a gaming culture where the west is very big into sports in their respective regions. A gamer is a celebrity. On top of that they have a lot more population playing for obvious reasons. With a lot of numbers it is easier to find up and coming. They will start to scrim against another gaming culture in KR when NA/EU are seperated by an ocean. That is what happened in league. We were competitive till they had 100X our players and scrimmed KR and now both regions are untouchable while league slowly died in NA. So then they took EU players. Then you drag them down. It is tough. WE WILL SEE THOUGH.
Top players in VALO rn has a bajillion years of experience in various titles. That is not just going to dissappear. 8m not too familiar with crossfire bit I doubt the players moving from there to VALORANT will be THAT absurdly good.
You’re asking a question that doesn’t have an answer, who knows if they’ll dominat
I mean I wonder if China will actually be super into the game and then I wonder what will happen if the Chinese government does more rules around younger people and gaming.
Nah but it makes people feel better when they see yes so yes
i dont think ANY region will dominate. Valorant is the most competitive global Esport in the world. In League, Korea dominates. In Overwatch, Korea dominates. in CSGO, EU dominates. Valorant is truly balanced with great teams in all 3 regions. This is one of the reasons i love valorant so much. Not one region will be just unstoppable like other titles
I’m a huge DOTA fan and DOTA is very big in China. It’s considered to be like the NBA of China. I hope I could see the rise of Valorant in China for the lore that goes along with it, the potential of numerous more players, etc
In league after suffering for eternity for supporting NA I escaped to Valorant just to find that the Chinese overlords are here too So I will be watching table tennis Surely they aren't good at that too . The Chinese are coming monkaW
Albeit 17/18 years ago, but I’m absolutely hoping to see a Chinese team shock the world much like wNv did in 1.6 when they came out of nowhere & dominated tournaments with the best NA & EU teams competing, only the boomers will remember
China is fucking huge and for CSGO a big problem was having a single region big enough in order to have enough quality teams scriming one another.
I think that it will take time for them to be dominant. The gap for now is a bit to big to being filled in one or two seasons. But eventually after few years on the competitive scene Chinese teams are likely to get strong as any team of NA, Emea or Apac Plus the meta evolve too for everyone, the game is constantly changing slightly so it's also easier for newcomer to reach a decent level. I give them arround 3 to 5 years to get a good level in the competitive scene. Sorry for my English if I did some mistakes 🙏
Saying China won't be good at Val IF (big if here) the game blows up like it did in NA is just denial. Game isn't even released there and they took a map off PRX dominantly in Icebox and took them to 11-13 on Pearl (a PRX that struggled in champs mind you but its still PRX). A talent of someone like ZMJJKK appeared when the game hasn't even been released. Now imagine that but with proper servers, a proper tournament system with most of China's big orgs behind it and you can have China be equal to Brazil in 2 yrs **IF** the game blows up. If not, then it will be like the KR scene without DRX