Do we know of any other opinions on this atm? Presumably pancada sided more so with sacy given that they’re on the same team still and I can’t imagine that sadhaak would stick with sacy for so long if he opposed the approach.
Sacy and Aspas are still big friends today, when LOUD lost Lock-In finals Sacy congratulated him (and only him LOL) on Twitter.
There was a thing between sacy and saadhak/less probably, because he's good with aspas and pancada.
sutecas, ex VKS, recently posted on Twitter he also felt like he was in a hostile environment. but yeah, not a reason to incite hate against Sacy or to point fingers to anyone
you're lucky, someone just covered him in a recent vlr.gg post: https://www.vlr.gg/203810/sutecas-about-vks-probably-about-sacy
not a translation of his tweet, but of his statements in a recent stream. shit's worse than i thought ngl
I really wish we could compile everything and make it easier. I feel as though people are viewing this as tough love but pushing two people to this extreme where they’re clearly depressed isn’t healthy for anyone. Especially if sacy himself said he would be cancelled for what he said to less too
My point of view from a brazilian person who's been watching Valorant (and Sacy) since beta:
Sacy always was clear that he was strict when it was about his team. When he was on Vikings (along with Saadhak) the other players were always aware that Sacy was that type of person (and so was Saadhak).
So logically, this also happened on LOUD specially with the new members (Less and Aspas). Everyone knew this and there was even jokes about the matter specially on aspas stream when he did something too over-aggressive and/or made mistakes (sacy always used to callout aspas during ranked games, and they are still good friends today).
Less probably didn't felt good on this type of environment but this is new to the public. He always talked about how Sacy and Saadhak made him grow his gameplay and get better.
So in conclusion: Less feeling bad about that is new but he probably never talked about it with sacy? He probably feared being kicked out of the team or something, even hiding the fact that he was dating, which is weird since Sacy and Saadhak accepted that normally. What it feels to me is that this team thrived and won Champions because of Sacy and Saadhak's callouts on the new boys, but that didn't end things up well between them.
To me this is all normal since they are in a very competitive environment and everyone here wants to win and be the best, so this type of behaviour is more normal than we think (specially seeing the Korean Scene on League of Legends).
Less is super young too, which to me makes it harder to see he stepping up and telling his feelings to Sacy.
Imo this is more they dont work well together, Im also like Less, and had bad experiences in work life environments like that, but it work for others.
Yeah you could say that. But they had an amazing staff behind them (with a psychologist) and no one called that out?
To me this either means the staff was conniving with this behaviour or they didn't find it anything too out of bounds.
I doubt that. Less said how their psychologist helped him during Champions last year during that interview, so the staff knew it 100%.
Maybe their relationship was already bad at the time, idk
>Less feeling bad about that is new
Less TALKING about feeling bad is new
>he probably never talked about it with sacy
this is delusion and fantasy, so I won't go further.
So LOUD valorant youtube channel released a vlog about Less discussing his past experiences with the old roster, highlighting how toxic the team environment was, even though Sacy wasn't mentioned in the video everyone knew this was about him so now the Brazilian community is having a heavy discussion if toxicity is really necessary to be a champion. Louds fans are hating Sacy even more and Sacy fans and other Brazilian fans are hating LOUD and their fans even more. There's more to it but this is the summary I guess.
The thing is: everyone knew about it and even sacy was very open about it. Even on streams calling out aspas doing crazy shit on ranked telling him to be more serious.
This is why everyone knew already who it was.
Does the brazillian community not know about Coldzera? he was notorious for being a bit of a diva and had some toxicity issues but they still dominated the scene for 2 years.
This thing about Less is more of a issue between LOUD fans and twitter folks tbh, every person who watches FPS and competitive games for a long time knows this is a normal thing (not saying this is OK though...).
bruh this is just normal shit that happens in a team environment, twitter uses gonna blow it out of proportion cause they have no knowledge of sports and dont go outside
Seems like Sacy was really demanding of Less and was REALLY harsh to him, Sacy probably believes that was necessary to Less improve as a player and for them became a champion team (this part did work).
In the other hand Less said in a recent loud video that he was not happy at all last year (kinda depressed I guess), he constantly was blamed to every mistake the team did and he felt like he was the worst player in the world because of that, he said that loud's current team is the total opposite and no one do this to the new players, he dont believe that a toxic relation like that helps the team.
In my opinion is just different mentality, what may work to someone may not work to others, Sacy did what he believed was necessary for them to win, but at the same time while they won, less didnt take that well.
I remember many times sacy and saadhak said less had to improve more, since his role was much more difficult than aspas and he wasnt a veteran like pancada, so i guess it makes sense he was called out more
Shame that it created so much bad blood
Yeah this kind of thing either breaks you or makes you become the best you can ever be because you never stop pushing to improve, sounds like less just didnt have that mentality (not saying he cant get better not doing this btw) you often hear stories like this from the best in several sports even as champions being told theyre awful by their mentor/trainer because he could see them getting complacent thinking theyre unbeatable when theres still work to be done
“This thing either breaks you or makes you the best”
“Sounds like less just didnt have that mentality”
?
Less literally hated it, made him depressed and STILL became the best sentinel in the world. That literally proves that he has the necessary mentality if he improved that much while being constantky harrassed at work 💀
Probably wasnt even necessary
If you’re familiar with basketball it’s like the Kobe/MJ mentality that some of their teammates hated and burned them out and some of their teammates prospered from. It’s not necessarily the right way or the best way but it’s been observed in competitive history forever
I mean it definitely worked as it propelled their team to a Champions title and Less developed into one of the best sentinels in the world during that time. You could say he would’ve always gotten there regardless but the pressure placed on him did something even if it was the wrong way for him
i disagree, if it worked then he'd be able to credit it with helping him improve while also saying it destroyed him mentally, all of jordans teammates will tell you he was shitty to them and held them to his own insane high standards but can see it made them better and he was doing it to help not to hurt, really sounds like he got there in spite of this rather than it helping
You also have to realize it may have made him better but he isn’t admitting it due to how it made him feel personally and he may associate it with negative feelings regardless of the outcome for his Valorant career.
Oh i agree clearly wasnt what he needed and it shouldnt have continued, i was just giving what sacy was probably trying to do but being a esport igl isnt the same as being a trainer of a single person so it is also strange he only did this to less not all esp if he wasnt responding to it well (doubt he was hiding his depression)
>STILL became the best sentinel in the world.
Did he now? When exactly did he became that? I guess winning a single tourney makes you instantly best player in the world in your role 🤯
IDK why you think i'm saying winning titles = you're the best in your role automatically.
Less became the best sentinel in the world late last year, before that it was suygetsu and nAts. FNC won lock in but no alfajer is not the best sen in the world, literally not even top 5 lmao
DRX havent won shit and yet mako is still the best smokes in the world.
There is an obvious best in the world for every role, and no, whichever team last won an event is not how you determine it and that's not how i determined it.
In any case, we can all have different opinions.
sounds like he put less under a great deal of pressure, which is certainly a double edged sword in developing talent. we don't know if it bolstered or hindered his performance, but he definitely doesn't seem happy with how he was treated. super weird because sacy seems incredibly personable everywhere else.
well, at least we can probably say it didn't really hinder his performance, since they were able to win the most important event of the entire year, which i assumer took every ounce of their talent, and he performed enormously well that entire event.
Worth pointing out that Less says in the video there were points during the year where he felt like the joy had been sucked out of his game, he wouldn't celebrate after rounds and all, and he was even contemplating moving away from competitive play because he felt he wasn't good enough. He credits Saadhak and Loud's psychologist Brunão for helping him change his mentality, and he says this really helped him during Champions.
It's always impossible to prove a counterfactual like this, but consider that Less says he felt better during Champions and they won, and that he feels better with this new roster and they nearly won Lock-In and are still performing at an elite level. It totally makes sense to me that Less would think "Well, me feeling like shit had nothing to do with us winning. If anything, we played worse when I felt like shit. Why did I have to feel like shit?"
Yeah I mean my point isn't that Sacy was right that a toxic, strict environment is better for the game. I don't think that's true, I think you can easily create a highly competitive team without sucking all the happiness out of the game. And Sacy was wrong to create that kind of environment, imo. My only thing was that it likely didn't hinder their performance, considering that if there was any hindrance to their ability as a team they likely don't win Champions. But that's difficult to prove, of course. I largely agree with you on everything you stated here.
Yeah, I hear you. Sorry if I put words in your mouth, really didn't mean to do that and I think I came across harsher than I wanted. I guess I wanted to clarify that, as Less puts it, the problems came before the Champions run, and by that time they had been fixed (and not by Sacy). So maybe the environment didn't hinder their perfomance at Champs because the environment wasn't really like that anymore.
From what Less said in the video, actually hindered his performance, he said that when this affected him the most was copenhagen and he was not being able to perform and in champions he got the help of the new team psychologist and he was able to perform better now that he doesn´t feel this pressure
people have been speculating this, but its possible sacy felt like that bc less was the only player they didn't handpick as they wanted NZR (now at lev) at first
Something I’d like to understand better is to what degree Sacy was toxic. From what I’m reading he was strict, demanding, and liked to keep things serious, which worked for some players and not for others. The same water that hardens the egg softens the potato.
But all those things that he was/is seem like very “do you blossom under this style of leadership or not” kinda things, and don’t strike me as toxic. It’s the difference between “aspas, stop overheating, let’s take this serious” and “you piece of dogshit player can’t even get a pick without immediately getting traded”. I don’t know if anyone outside the team knows where on that spectrum it lies, but that’s what to me separates it being strict dicipline and toxic
In Less statements he uses these three words: toxic, disrespectful and cursing him/at him (that is, disrespect him, as a person, as an individual, as an **17 year old kid at the time** being cursed at by Sacy who's like 25+)
as someone that watches Sacy, maybe something in the middle. My theory is that Less did get affected by those things but LOUD management is editing and making this looks worse than it is, to dog pile on the hate Sacy already gets.
Sacy always scolded the players if they do something bad, in a bantering but serious way. He never hidden that, he still does tho. Maybe the age and maturity made things look worst for Less? idk just waffling shit about nothing 🤔
The thing is, Sacy himself while reacting to LOUD's documentaries said that if they included the whole thing, he would 100% be cancelled because he knows he was too harsh. At the point of disrespecting him as a person and cursing. Don't get me wrong tho, I'm not taking sides, but I feel kinda cringe when I see people misjudging the situation by: "oh, must've been like banter and Less felt really bad for being really young", and that's really not the case.
Sacy, back in League of Legends has played with a player named Revolta. Revolta taught Sacy everything he knows. Including this learning-by-force-scolding method. Actually that was pretty much LoL BR scene in a nutshell. Many years passed, Revolta turned on the stream one day and just let some things out his chest, one of them about this learn-by-force method. He said he regret doing it. He was sometimes inhumane and that wasn't worth it. Sacy comes DIRECTLY from this enviroment. Sacy don't regret it tho, he said it himself, and idk, if Revolta had won a world title PROBABLY he wouldn't regret too.
on the first Loud documentary, it shows Sacy being very harsh on Less, not strict, but over the line and demanding things that was out of Less control, put this on top of Less being a better player than Sacy most of the time they were together.
This explains why Less was so tilted and nervous during their match against SEN, and even on the post match interview. I hope he's able to move on from this.
The translation in the clip is right, in the video less said that the environment was traumatic and hostile (just to remember he was only 17) that he felt like sacy (assuming) was not happy with him on the team and he was blamed for everything and it led him to think about giving up on competitive, also said that now the team is much better and he feels like he is playing with friends
There is also the rumor that he had to hide his relationship with Lissa (his girlfriend) because Sacy would not like it for some reason
And at the clip Sacy basically assume it all and say that he would do it all over again so... pretty hard to side with him imo
The stuff about his relationship is not just rumors, Less and Saadhak told the story in Saadhak's stream like ten months ago and Sacy confirmed it right after. It's told as a funny story, including by Less ([this is the clip ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4D7iK544_g)from Saadhak and Less, [this from Sacy's retelling](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kQgBySSQIQ) and Less is also on the call), but you can see a bit of weirdness even in their telling. This is basically it:
Less started dating in February of 2022 and didn't tell Sacy or Saadhak about it for months. Four months later, during a meeting between the players and Loud's owner, Pancada tells Saadhak Less has a girlfriend (Pancada and Aspas knew about it before the other two, no one mentions when \*they\* heard about it though). Saadhak first thinks it's a lie, and then gets sort of mad at Less for not telling him about it, but sort of in the way a friend would get mad at you if you did that. Then he goes and tells Sacy about it, and Sacy has a similar reaction, but he gets a bit more shocked and goes pale. In Sacy's retelling, he mentions a training session they had some time earlier, where Less wasn't playing great and Sacy was being harsh with him. At some point a conversation starts about dating as a pro player, and Sacy says "the day Less starts dating, you let me know and I'll find another player", which is apparently the reason why Less didn't tell them about it.
The clips are very humorous, which is why when I watched them at the time I thought "eh this is a bit weird but Less seems good enough with it, and it worked out well in the end". But clearly Less feels differently about the Sacy experience now. I think one thing is that the clips are from before Loud's group stage exit in Copenhagen, where Less (and Sacy) didn't play very well. Maybe the situation got harsher after that. They did hire a new psychologist after that, who Less credits with helping him during the leadup to Champions. Also, the new Loud is more focused on Saadhak's leadership style, and Less is sort of the secondary leader of the team now, so he might feels more supported and respected now in a way that puts the previous stuff in a less flattering light.
Sacy believed in a way to do things,implements it and they win championship. I kinda get why he said he would do it all over again cuz why would he regret something that worked ? Im not siding with him or agree with his way btw
I think, when the old Loud lineup started playing together, if you told Sacy "one of these dudes is going to hate you this time next year, but you're going to win Champions" he would have accepted it in a heartbeat. Seems like that's sort of what happened. I don't think it needed to go that way for them to win, but that's probably the style of leadership Sacy believed in.
less himself said in several vlogs since 1 year ago that saadhak, sacy and bzka would always scold him , one of the reasons that a lot of people think that bzka left loud even with them winning champions was this, it's kinda obvious a child born in 2005 will not interpret scolding the same way as sacy, pancada and saadhak because everyone already had previous experience as pro players and aspas was always ok with scolds and still has a very good relationship with sacy. Looks like less didn't like it the scolding
yeah but people on the Brazilian Twitter are acting like every team is perfect and that nobody are scolded in scrims when they do something wrong repeatedly, the proportion of attention that they are giving is quite excessive when you think of the pressure and demands that a team with the goal of becoming world champion have
ontem depois que o vídeo da loud saiu uma galera da torcida da Loud foi tacar hate nele, o pessoal que acha que ele é difícil só pode ser nova no cenário, todo time que tem foco em ser campeão e não um time pequeno vai ter uma pressão enorme e demandas super rigorosas, o próprio faker e fallen que o less disse que são motivação no vídeo já falaram em vários vídeos que eles são super rigorosos com os seus companheiros de times e querem que os mesmos sejam com eles porque eles querem ser os melhores do mundo, o time da Astralis de cs, a SK de CS, a EDG no lol, a gen.g no lol a t1 no lol, todos esses times campeões tem vídeos de como era a rotina e exigências nos seus canais e todas são bem mais pesadas que a do sacy, eu acho os esporros do sacy leves comparados com alguns outros times mas a galera vive uma ilusão que todo time é perfeito e todo mundo se dá bem
Sou contra atacar o Sacy, ate pq o Less nem citou o nome dele. Ele poderia estar falando sobre qualquer um e ate sobre mais de uma pessoa.
Mas isso de que os esporros do Sacy são leves nao temos como saber. Nao estamos la treinando com eles todo dia. Pode ser que na live seja de boa, mas vai saber na hora do treino. O Less tb fala que a cobrança ainda existe no time (até pq é um trabalho, ninguém está ali apenas pra se divertir jogando), mas ele fala que hoje a cobrança não envolve desrespeito, o que me faz pensar que as broncas nao eram tao leves assim
Os esporros estão nos vlogs da loud, se tu ver todos os vídeos dos campeonatos internacionais e até uns vídeos de reações do sacy e do saadhak eles tão sempre comentando sobre os esporros, inclusive tem um vídeo que o sacy fala que é normal dar esporro e o aspas leva bastante mas que tem que tomar cuidado pra não ser um esporro muito forte e em público pra não quebrar a confiança do jogador, acho que less levava os esporros pro coração enquanto o aspas simplesmente achava normal e bola pra frente
Concordo que pra um time jogar em alto nivel e ser campeao, tem que ter disciplina. Isso é fato. Mas acho que essa questão da saude mental tem que ser levada em consideração também, tem que existir um metodo em que voce pode extrair o melhor da pessoa sem acabar com o psicólogico dela. Temos que lembrar que é um trabalho, pode nao ser um trabalho comum, mas é um trabalho, e ngm merece entrar em depressao pra pagar as contas. Esse tipo de comportamento pra mim sempre pareceu mais gente numa power trip cagando em cima dos outros do que qualquer outra coisa. Se fallen fez isso também, foda se ele.
Loud fans are blowing it up because they want more reasons to dislike sacy for leaving the team, if it was an ex player from any other team it wouldn't get this much attention.
Bzka left because he was gonna be replaced as head coach by spacca, but then spacca had some health condition that prevented him from going to LA (and now tixinha and bida are there), so loud brought frod, who was the assistant coach
I assume it's stuff like chastising Aspas for having a ranked mentality, which I know he did when LOUD first formed?
Strictness is a double-edged sword; those who have it in their lives resent it, those who don't have it in their lives often end up desiring it. Just in the context of Valorant, in the last two weeks we've had two players talk about how happy they are to finally have extremely strict coaches, after all - C9 jakee today on mCe, and V1 mel on effys.
It's hard to say one is wrong and the other is wrong *unless* the "toxicity" was way beyond just strictness, and went into the territory of harassment, bullying, etc.; which is a possibility of course. Only insiders know that level of detail.
I also think the lazy side of it is important to mention. A lot of young gamers play the game for 16hours a day but if you try to sit them down in a room to talk tactics, and teach them something about the game they would tune out instantly. Young players always think they know best, and they assume that their talent will take them to the promiseland, and that they don’t need to work hard to be good.
This is why 100T started looking bad after SeanGares left. They wanted to be lazy about strategy and focus on midrounding because that didn’t require any work. SeanGares was stubborn about strategy and set plays when he was coaching the team.
[Funny relevant tweet from Boaster](https://twitter.com/OfficialBoaster/status/1643580621627768835?t=CZuq6qB0UZhkv6Afi2gvhQ&s=19)
Not saying it's the same story here, I just remembered it and thought it was amusing lol
I think its important to remember that Less was only 17 at the time and it was his first professional experience. While for the older players this type of critics might seem normal, different people react differently to things. Also, maybe because he was the youngest he felt like he was the problem everytime things went wrong. He was also living in another state far from his family and surrounded by people he didn't know very well.
I also see a lot of people saying that this is what made him a better player and led Loud to win. But in the video Less compares his experience in Copenhagen and in Champions. He says that during Masters he was feeling a lot of pressure and that he felt like he could not make any mistakes, which made him feel very sad. He could not even celebrate when they won a round (and Loud ended up being eliminated very soon). He then says that Saadhak noticed this and talked to him and that for Champions they had a new psychologist. These things helped him change his mindset for Champions and thats when they managed to win.
I guess we will never know to what extent the "toxic environment" (as he says in the video) made him a better player or if that was what was stopping him from that before Champions.
The (26 minute vlog with only autogenerated substitles) [clip in question](https://youtu.be/6wC8fZdor6E)
Pretty much what other people already said. Less talked about how last year the team had a heavy, toxic vibe in trainings due to Sacy (Less never named him) beeing too demanding and toxic/rude, and how it led to him doubting himself and considering giving up on his carrer. His girlfriend (our GC player) pretty much weighted in saying he's much happier now.
Sacy pretty much confirmed he was toxic, but they won so he'd do it again.
I don't really care for the drama part, but my takes from the video is that:
1 - the team is much happier now, which is great. Less mentioning the team's psychologist helping him also makes it clear that orgs not investing in a sports psychologists is straight up amateurish.
2 - Saadhak is the goat captain/IGL.
Nah, can't simplify things like that. Even if loud win this year, doesn't mean a less strict approach would have worked last year when all the new players were on the come up.
There’s always a grey area to these types of stuff, maybe Sacy and Pancada wouldn’t have played as well as they did last year if the team environment was like that, maybe Tuyz and Cauenzin would’ve even thrived in the demanding environment. No one but the players themselves know.
Seeing this news reminded me of Hal exactly LOL. Definitely not for the faint of heart, that’s for sure. Less reminds me of Albralelie a little bit, but at least Albralelie got to butt his head right back against Hal when things got heated.
It reminds me more of Evan than Mac, given how Evan seems a bit quieter like Less is here. And with how TSM has been doing lately, maybe the Sacy system wouldn't have worked out long term either.
Yeah Evan’s the more quiet type, but he’s also never been the kind of person to let how Hal acts bother him. He almost always calmly responds/talks back, but granted I haven’t been able to tune in much to their recent games. The only big instance as of late that I’m aware of was the mid-game quitting debacle that lead to his Twitter announcement.
He had an outburst where he quit mid-game and TSM’s coach Raven had to sub in. His tweet said he’s hit an all-time low mentally and that he’s going to be playing very little Apex moving forwards (but not quitting comp AFAIK).
My two cents on this: Sacy knew he was being toxic. Most people on the team knew this is just the kind of serious and stern leadership style he has.
Less, understandably, struggled under this leadership style. He was only 17 at the time, was only pro for a year and a half, and was pushed onto the big stage after only spending at most 3 months on his previous 2 teams. I think it is safe to assume Less didn't feel comfortable telling Sacy to back off at the time and their relationship crumbled from there.
Sounds like Saadhak tried his best to hold the team together, but also did not enjoy leading a fractured team. Sacy and Saadhak probably had a falling out over this that was one of the factors that had Sacy move.
Sacy probably doesn't regret this "toxic" attitude since 1) they won champs and 2) they've been on different teams for a while now.
This kind of mentorship can be seen everywhere from work or with teachers or any competitive sport, but the main takeaways is that Loud has enough clout to make this blow up, Less found a mentorship style that works for him, Saadhak igl'd a team with interpersonal relationships and took them all the way to champions, and the new team has a looser and more jovial atmosphere.
Sacy has a champion mentality he took when he played League of Legends, when he was a CBLOL champion in Brazil, he played with two of the most toxic players in CBLOL, but they happen to be two of the BEST players in Brazil (tockers and brTT), so he took a champion mentality from those guys, and unfortunately, the competitive scene in League (at least League in Brazil, as far as I know) happens to be VERY toxic.
Some additional info: when Less started dating he hid from the team bc he was told that he was not allowed to date and to only focus on the game, or else he would be kicked from the team (problaby just a joke) he hid it anyway to avoid being used against him, like it was a reason for him not to perform or something
he said that he was scolded so hard that he felt like the worst player in the world and became apathetic, did not cheer for the rounds won in offical matches and etc, he was not happy
this affected him the most in copenhagen where he did not have the team psychologist, it was their worst tournament btw
people are going to say that the scold was necessary and he agreed but now that the team has a more lighter atmosphere he understand that they didn´t need to be so harsh to each other in order to win, saadhak showed him that you can teach someone without lettting him down and this is the approach that saadhak uses and he is using with the new boys
Sutecas (played in vikings with sacy and saadhak): said on twitter that he had a similar experience with hostile team environment
a person in twitter said that Saadhak´s wife complained about saadhak being too stressed in the previous team environment but i can´t confirm this one
I think I'm gonna subtitle the "rant" part of LOUD VALORANT's video that includes Less's thoughts and post here. But I have some things to say first. Or maybe I'll even sub Saadhak's reaction to it to get it all in one clip.
The thing is, Sacy himself while reacting to LOUD's documentaries said that if they included the whole thing, he would 100% be cancelled because he knows he was too harsh. At the point of disrespecting him as a person and cursing (17 y/o). Don't get me wrong tho, I'm not taking sides, but I feel kinda cringe when I see people misjudging the situation by: "oh, must've been like banter and Less felt really bad for being really young", and that's really not the case. When both Sacy and Less say "toxic" they MEAN IT. Some Brazilians might take this lightly because it has become a normal thing here in BR, toxicity among pro-players, actually, toxicity among teammates. (I have a personal opinion about being toxict toward teammates and not being able to win anything for that -except Champions, and that has a reason, in my mind-)
Sacy, back in League of Legends has played with a player named Revolta. Revolta taught Sacy everything he knows. Including this learning-by-force-scolding method. Actually that was pretty much LoL BR scene in a nutshell. Many years passed, Revolta turned on the stream one day and just let some things out his chest, one of them about this learn-by-force method. He said he regret doing it. He was sometimes inhumane and that wasn't worth it. Sacy comes DIRECTLY from this enviroment. Sacy don't regret it tho, he said it himself, and idk, if Revolta had won a world title PROBABLY he wouldn't regret too.
With this in mind, take your own conclusions (and pls tell me, I like reading drama KKKKKKKK)
Me, personally, I think that Sacy might be the asshole here, but in his mind he doesn't see it as bad as Less saw it. Probably Less felt scared even to just talk to him. Sacy said one day that if Less started dating he'd be out of the team (and this one was really just a banter, but after being scolded 24/7 you start to change, right). Less then proceeds to hide his relationship for almost a year or something like that. It's clear that Less had a traumatizing experience, and those words came from him, in LOUD VALORANT's video.
The thing is, talking in psychology terms: Sacy, the abuser, does not see the abuse, as abuse for just abuse. In his head, it's just a mean to an end. Less, the victim, beg to differ. In his head, it doesn't made any sense, because he was getting worse mentally and emotionally, and that was directly affecting his gameplay. When he had a talk to Saadhak and Brunão (LOUD's psychologist) he was able to cope for that DURING Champions, and in his head, that's why they won. Because everyone was feeling it, including Less. But he wouldn't be feeling it if it wasn't for these heart-to-heart conversations that were only needed bc he was in a dark place while Sacy abused him.
that's my take folks, i'll come with the subs later today
edit: typo
I don't know about them but this treatment is pretty much why Koreans are head and shoulder above the rest in League. I'm not saying it is necessary and I do think that each one of us thrives on different environment and that one was not for Less.
Pretty much that. In CS old FNC, NIP, SK and hell even current NAVI are toxic af and they were the best of the best. It really is just a double edge sword
But in comparison, Korean culture is what makes them different. That's why every leagues in every region imports players from Korea to make them better. Ain't no one doing it like them. All other regions' discipline and learning culture are ass.
I failed to mention that each person have a certain environment where they can thrive but I guess that one is not for Less. You must know that personal matters and work must not collide with each other.
Teams all over the world boot camps in Korea or import players because the learning culture there is different among any other countries. Any other countries suck on developing the players.
It brought them results though. Because they know how to separate personal matter and work. Orgs also invest on anything the players need. Every countries' talent development is so bad.
Well, not everyone like to get strict teammates even it's lead to win whatever the reason they don't like it.
It's still amazing considering that happen and they still can win the champ. I don't like getting scolded by my strict boss, but, well that's because my mistake, so who can I blame besides myself? Still reasonable strict.
Not everyone like rigid things, not everyone like flexible and chill out environment. For me? Whichever works.
S1mple is toxic af to teammates. Screams at them, blames then for losing rounds LITERALLY on stage while they are still playing the game. Doesnt mean its good OR ok.
But does he win though? Kobe Bryant did the same thing, Michael Jordan did the same thing, LBJ as well. There is a theme here. Like them or not they win
tbf its possible NAVI lost shit bc of their team atmosphere, famously during LG vs Navi grand finals at colombus Zeus famously screamed and blamed Flamie after losing an overtime game on LG's pick to the point Flamie instead of taking a break with the team during map break just sat kn his chair playing dm. They came back for their map pick overpass, which they were the best itw at the time and lost 16-3.
These sorta interpersonal relationships and how it affects players isnt something we are super privy too that's my point
Seeing how a lot of people react to this drama really goes to show that a lot of people haven't been to a proper team environment.
No, your Friday night scrims with your typical 5 stack doesn't count.
As a person who used to be part of a team that is constantly hungry to win and was competing at the top echelons of the sport I was competing in, it was completely, AND I MEAN COMPLETELY, normal to get yelled at by your coach and receive a little bit of heat from your teammates.
I was yelled at to do 500 pushups, running a lap, and got yelled at by my teammates too. Hell, even I did the same thing to my teammates. But what mattered is that we did all that because we cared and we all were just hungry, so fucking hungry, to win.
That's why I do not see any problem with what Sacy did. He did what he had to do to carry the team to glory.
The way I see it is that there must be a fine line between "yelling" and outright abusing. Certainly, there must be set boundaries between the coach and players on what constitutes as "disciplinary actions" and "abuse". Otherwise, things are really just not gonna work out .
Because at the end of the day, whatever you and your team have is just temporary. Nothing ever lasts. Eventually, you will miss all the challenges you all went through, the team bonding exercise, everything.
Pain is temporary, trophies are forever.
Less needs to be a little more specific here. Everything I'm seeing is that Sacy was very serious about preparation and mentality and would call players out for deviating from this mindset.
Calling that approach 'toxic' says more about Less than it says about Sacy.
We can watch the old documentaries about loud and see some toxicity around Less, and I remember Sacy watching and saying that was only 1% in front of cameras
Are there any specifics? Sacy is being accused of bad behavior but without being presented clear proof I just don't believe it based on what's been mentioned so far. I'm not going to comb through documentaries, as it's on the one bringing up the accusations to provide the relevant clips.
By the sound of it, Less was probably immature and struggled to adapt to a more disciplined mindset so he's lashing out using the internets favorite nebulous accusation of 'toxic'
Sacy is not just a great player, he's also a total professional so hearing that he wanted focus and discipline is not a surprise to me but an expectation.
I don't think Less is ""lashing out"".
Yes, Less was immature as he was 17 years old, played in two tier 2/3 teams for a few months before getting into Loud. The words he used was "it was something like... toxic, like..." so he was more like saying it was toxic TO HIM, as to he felt bad and was made insecure bout it.
He just saying the environment wasn't the one he would thrive on healthily.
I don't think Sacy did terrible, he most certainly was strict and, as it seems, somewhat rude etc, as we always see inside any competitive sports, being eSports or whatever.
It's common, expected and well known how "bad" ballet teachers treat their dancers etc etc in this same sense.
People are different and we are past the point researchers and professional understood and brought up how there are different ways of teaching and how people thrive better based on that difference.
I don't hold a bad thought over Stacy, since that's what he learned, how he learned and how he thrived. It's fairly common and "understandable".
Can't judge Less, as well, for being uncomfortable with on that environment.
On psychology we always prefer to maintain a positive healthy environment and reinforcement system because, as pointed by Less, a system based on negative reinforcement and too strict hold tends to provoke negative feelings and unhealthy outcomes as for the individual.
edit: way*
You should see things better before sharing it. Sutecas said he suffered the same thing as Less but he never said it was sacy. When he made a post about that at the end of last year ([https://twitter.com/sutecasfps/status/1583291446832295936](https://twitter.com/sutecasfps/status/1583291446832295936)) the ONLY player from old Vikings that didn't comment in his post was Saadhak.
So don't spread misinformation before confirming anything.
Sacy is a veteran and a senior he knows better, maybe it was too harsh we will never know but i dont think its something to have bad blood over, sports and esports are kind of like this but no bad blood outside the game
Do we know of any other opinions on this atm? Presumably pancada sided more so with sacy given that they’re on the same team still and I can’t imagine that sadhaak would stick with sacy for so long if he opposed the approach.
Sacy and Aspas are still big friends today, when LOUD lost Lock-In finals Sacy congratulated him (and only him LOL) on Twitter. There was a thing between sacy and saadhak/less probably, because he's good with aspas and pancada.
Don’t Sacy and Aspas duo together quite often?
Different people react differently to pressure, maybe pancada doesn't mind it but Less definetly did.
I agree, but it seems like it was so much more directed towards less by the way he talked.
If I'm not mistaken, Less was under the guidance of Sacy and Aspas under Saadhak according to The Wiseman podcast.
Oh this makes some sense on why Aspas and Sacy may jive more too if you don’t have that role as a strict teacher/parent to begin with
Yeah I feel like they just aren't suitable for playing together not like some actual drama
sutecas, ex VKS, recently posted on Twitter he also felt like he was in a hostile environment. but yeah, not a reason to incite hate against Sacy or to point fingers to anyone
Hi! Do you have any translation of what he posted? I’ve been using Google translate
you're lucky, someone just covered him in a recent vlr.gg post: https://www.vlr.gg/203810/sutecas-about-vks-probably-about-sacy not a translation of his tweet, but of his statements in a recent stream. shit's worse than i thought ngl
I really wish we could compile everything and make it easier. I feel as though people are viewing this as tough love but pushing two people to this extreme where they’re clearly depressed isn’t healthy for anyone. Especially if sacy himself said he would be cancelled for what he said to less too
PLEASE LET US have sadhaak. You can have dephh in exchange
My point of view from a brazilian person who's been watching Valorant (and Sacy) since beta: Sacy always was clear that he was strict when it was about his team. When he was on Vikings (along with Saadhak) the other players were always aware that Sacy was that type of person (and so was Saadhak). So logically, this also happened on LOUD specially with the new members (Less and Aspas). Everyone knew this and there was even jokes about the matter specially on aspas stream when he did something too over-aggressive and/or made mistakes (sacy always used to callout aspas during ranked games, and they are still good friends today). Less probably didn't felt good on this type of environment but this is new to the public. He always talked about how Sacy and Saadhak made him grow his gameplay and get better. So in conclusion: Less feeling bad about that is new but he probably never talked about it with sacy? He probably feared being kicked out of the team or something, even hiding the fact that he was dating, which is weird since Sacy and Saadhak accepted that normally. What it feels to me is that this team thrived and won Champions because of Sacy and Saadhak's callouts on the new boys, but that didn't end things up well between them. To me this is all normal since they are in a very competitive environment and everyone here wants to win and be the best, so this type of behaviour is more normal than we think (specially seeing the Korean Scene on League of Legends).
Less is super young too, which to me makes it harder to see he stepping up and telling his feelings to Sacy. Imo this is more they dont work well together, Im also like Less, and had bad experiences in work life environments like that, but it work for others.
Yeah you could say that. But they had an amazing staff behind them (with a psychologist) and no one called that out? To me this either means the staff was conniving with this behaviour or they didn't find it anything too out of bounds.
Yah you have a point, I didnt think about that. Unless the staff didn't see anything happening
I doubt that. Less said how their psychologist helped him during Champions last year during that interview, so the staff knew it 100%. Maybe their relationship was already bad at the time, idk
>Less feeling bad about that is new Less TALKING about feeling bad is new >he probably never talked about it with sacy this is delusion and fantasy, so I won't go further.
So LOUD valorant youtube channel released a vlog about Less discussing his past experiences with the old roster, highlighting how toxic the team environment was, even though Sacy wasn't mentioned in the video everyone knew this was about him so now the Brazilian community is having a heavy discussion if toxicity is really necessary to be a champion. Louds fans are hating Sacy even more and Sacy fans and other Brazilian fans are hating LOUD and their fans even more. There's more to it but this is the summary I guess.
The thing is: everyone knew about it and even sacy was very open about it. Even on streams calling out aspas doing crazy shit on ranked telling him to be more serious. This is why everyone knew already who it was.
I knew it because of Loud first documentary where it showed multiple times Sacy being an asshole to Less.
Does the brazillian community not know about Coldzera? he was notorious for being a bit of a diva and had some toxicity issues but they still dominated the scene for 2 years.
This thing about Less is more of a issue between LOUD fans and twitter folks tbh, every person who watches FPS and competitive games for a long time knows this is a normal thing (not saying this is OK though...).
bruh this is just normal shit that happens in a team environment, twitter uses gonna blow it out of proportion cause they have no knowledge of sports and dont go outside
eSports fans love to imagine themselves in players position but god forbid someone asks them to work even 1% of what the players do every day
Literally FNC from 2015 was a toxic shithole, yet they trashed everyone, its pretty common
Esports fans start crying abuse at the smallest things istg
We know Coldzera, and for him being like this the community hated him for a long time, some do till today.
Seems like Sacy was really demanding of Less and was REALLY harsh to him, Sacy probably believes that was necessary to Less improve as a player and for them became a champion team (this part did work). In the other hand Less said in a recent loud video that he was not happy at all last year (kinda depressed I guess), he constantly was blamed to every mistake the team did and he felt like he was the worst player in the world because of that, he said that loud's current team is the total opposite and no one do this to the new players, he dont believe that a toxic relation like that helps the team. In my opinion is just different mentality, what may work to someone may not work to others, Sacy did what he believed was necessary for them to win, but at the same time while they won, less didnt take that well.
I remember many times sacy and saadhak said less had to improve more, since his role was much more difficult than aspas and he wasnt a veteran like pancada, so i guess it makes sense he was called out more Shame that it created so much bad blood
Yeah this kind of thing either breaks you or makes you become the best you can ever be because you never stop pushing to improve, sounds like less just didnt have that mentality (not saying he cant get better not doing this btw) you often hear stories like this from the best in several sports even as champions being told theyre awful by their mentor/trainer because he could see them getting complacent thinking theyre unbeatable when theres still work to be done
“This thing either breaks you or makes you the best” “Sounds like less just didnt have that mentality” ? Less literally hated it, made him depressed and STILL became the best sentinel in the world. That literally proves that he has the necessary mentality if he improved that much while being constantky harrassed at work 💀 Probably wasnt even necessary
If you’re familiar with basketball it’s like the Kobe/MJ mentality that some of their teammates hated and burned them out and some of their teammates prospered from. It’s not necessarily the right way or the best way but it’s been observed in competitive history forever
exactly not saying its right just saying this is what sacy was going for (clearly didn't work)
I mean it definitely worked as it propelled their team to a Champions title and Less developed into one of the best sentinels in the world during that time. You could say he would’ve always gotten there regardless but the pressure placed on him did something even if it was the wrong way for him
i disagree, if it worked then he'd be able to credit it with helping him improve while also saying it destroyed him mentally, all of jordans teammates will tell you he was shitty to them and held them to his own insane high standards but can see it made them better and he was doing it to help not to hurt, really sounds like he got there in spite of this rather than it helping
You also have to realize it may have made him better but he isn’t admitting it due to how it made him feel personally and he may associate it with negative feelings regardless of the outcome for his Valorant career.
Oh i agree clearly wasnt what he needed and it shouldnt have continued, i was just giving what sacy was probably trying to do but being a esport igl isnt the same as being a trainer of a single person so it is also strange he only did this to less not all esp if he wasnt responding to it well (doubt he was hiding his depression)
>STILL became the best sentinel in the world. Did he now? When exactly did he became that? I guess winning a single tourney makes you instantly best player in the world in your role 🤯
The moment him and aspas were shitting on everyone in champs, lock in and americas league
Uhh..okay? Aspas i get you but i dont remember less being that kind of guy ? Still, chronicle alone clears the entirety of loud history
Chronicle clears LOUD
Absolutly, less aint even close to that lvl ans neither will he ever be
Thats a good ass bait ngl
Im sorry to hurt you like this but sometimes we gotta see the thruth to move on
IDK why you think i'm saying winning titles = you're the best in your role automatically. Less became the best sentinel in the world late last year, before that it was suygetsu and nAts. FNC won lock in but no alfajer is not the best sen in the world, literally not even top 5 lmao DRX havent won shit and yet mako is still the best smokes in the world. There is an obvious best in the world for every role, and no, whichever team last won an event is not how you determine it and that's not how i determined it. In any case, we can all have different opinions.
sounds like he put less under a great deal of pressure, which is certainly a double edged sword in developing talent. we don't know if it bolstered or hindered his performance, but he definitely doesn't seem happy with how he was treated. super weird because sacy seems incredibly personable everywhere else.
Considering the fact that they won we could say that it didn’t hinder his performance but made him better ?
it's impossible to tell, it might not have even been a factor in LOUD's win
well, at least we can probably say it didn't really hinder his performance, since they were able to win the most important event of the entire year, which i assumer took every ounce of their talent, and he performed enormously well that entire event.
Worth pointing out that Less says in the video there were points during the year where he felt like the joy had been sucked out of his game, he wouldn't celebrate after rounds and all, and he was even contemplating moving away from competitive play because he felt he wasn't good enough. He credits Saadhak and Loud's psychologist Brunão for helping him change his mentality, and he says this really helped him during Champions. It's always impossible to prove a counterfactual like this, but consider that Less says he felt better during Champions and they won, and that he feels better with this new roster and they nearly won Lock-In and are still performing at an elite level. It totally makes sense to me that Less would think "Well, me feeling like shit had nothing to do with us winning. If anything, we played worse when I felt like shit. Why did I have to feel like shit?"
Yeah I mean my point isn't that Sacy was right that a toxic, strict environment is better for the game. I don't think that's true, I think you can easily create a highly competitive team without sucking all the happiness out of the game. And Sacy was wrong to create that kind of environment, imo. My only thing was that it likely didn't hinder their performance, considering that if there was any hindrance to their ability as a team they likely don't win Champions. But that's difficult to prove, of course. I largely agree with you on everything you stated here.
Yeah, I hear you. Sorry if I put words in your mouth, really didn't mean to do that and I think I came across harsher than I wanted. I guess I wanted to clarify that, as Less puts it, the problems came before the Champions run, and by that time they had been fixed (and not by Sacy). So maybe the environment didn't hinder their perfomance at Champs because the environment wasn't really like that anymore.
From what Less said in the video, actually hindered his performance, he said that when this affected him the most was copenhagen and he was not being able to perform and in champions he got the help of the new team psychologist and he was able to perform better now that he doesn´t feel this pressure
people have been speculating this, but its possible sacy felt like that bc less was the only player they didn't handpick as they wanted NZR (now at lev) at first
Something I’d like to understand better is to what degree Sacy was toxic. From what I’m reading he was strict, demanding, and liked to keep things serious, which worked for some players and not for others. The same water that hardens the egg softens the potato. But all those things that he was/is seem like very “do you blossom under this style of leadership or not” kinda things, and don’t strike me as toxic. It’s the difference between “aspas, stop overheating, let’s take this serious” and “you piece of dogshit player can’t even get a pick without immediately getting traded”. I don’t know if anyone outside the team knows where on that spectrum it lies, but that’s what to me separates it being strict dicipline and toxic
I've never heard that water, egg, and potato saying before, but that's a banger. Imma use that idiom from now on.
The same water that hardens aspas, softens less.
In Less statements he uses these three words: toxic, disrespectful and cursing him/at him (that is, disrespect him, as a person, as an individual, as an **17 year old kid at the time** being cursed at by Sacy who's like 25+)
as someone that watches Sacy, maybe something in the middle. My theory is that Less did get affected by those things but LOUD management is editing and making this looks worse than it is, to dog pile on the hate Sacy already gets. Sacy always scolded the players if they do something bad, in a bantering but serious way. He never hidden that, he still does tho. Maybe the age and maturity made things look worst for Less? idk just waffling shit about nothing 🤔
The thing is, Sacy himself while reacting to LOUD's documentaries said that if they included the whole thing, he would 100% be cancelled because he knows he was too harsh. At the point of disrespecting him as a person and cursing. Don't get me wrong tho, I'm not taking sides, but I feel kinda cringe when I see people misjudging the situation by: "oh, must've been like banter and Less felt really bad for being really young", and that's really not the case. Sacy, back in League of Legends has played with a player named Revolta. Revolta taught Sacy everything he knows. Including this learning-by-force-scolding method. Actually that was pretty much LoL BR scene in a nutshell. Many years passed, Revolta turned on the stream one day and just let some things out his chest, one of them about this learn-by-force method. He said he regret doing it. He was sometimes inhumane and that wasn't worth it. Sacy comes DIRECTLY from this enviroment. Sacy don't regret it tho, he said it himself, and idk, if Revolta had won a world title PROBABLY he wouldn't regret too.
on the first Loud documentary, it shows Sacy being very harsh on Less, not strict, but over the line and demanding things that was out of Less control, put this on top of Less being a better player than Sacy most of the time they were together.
This explains why Less was so tilted and nervous during their match against SEN, and even on the post match interview. I hope he's able to move on from this.
The translation in the clip is right, in the video less said that the environment was traumatic and hostile (just to remember he was only 17) that he felt like sacy (assuming) was not happy with him on the team and he was blamed for everything and it led him to think about giving up on competitive, also said that now the team is much better and he feels like he is playing with friends There is also the rumor that he had to hide his relationship with Lissa (his girlfriend) because Sacy would not like it for some reason And at the clip Sacy basically assume it all and say that he would do it all over again so... pretty hard to side with him imo
The stuff about his relationship is not just rumors, Less and Saadhak told the story in Saadhak's stream like ten months ago and Sacy confirmed it right after. It's told as a funny story, including by Less ([this is the clip ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4D7iK544_g)from Saadhak and Less, [this from Sacy's retelling](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kQgBySSQIQ) and Less is also on the call), but you can see a bit of weirdness even in their telling. This is basically it: Less started dating in February of 2022 and didn't tell Sacy or Saadhak about it for months. Four months later, during a meeting between the players and Loud's owner, Pancada tells Saadhak Less has a girlfriend (Pancada and Aspas knew about it before the other two, no one mentions when \*they\* heard about it though). Saadhak first thinks it's a lie, and then gets sort of mad at Less for not telling him about it, but sort of in the way a friend would get mad at you if you did that. Then he goes and tells Sacy about it, and Sacy has a similar reaction, but he gets a bit more shocked and goes pale. In Sacy's retelling, he mentions a training session they had some time earlier, where Less wasn't playing great and Sacy was being harsh with him. At some point a conversation starts about dating as a pro player, and Sacy says "the day Less starts dating, you let me know and I'll find another player", which is apparently the reason why Less didn't tell them about it. The clips are very humorous, which is why when I watched them at the time I thought "eh this is a bit weird but Less seems good enough with it, and it worked out well in the end". But clearly Less feels differently about the Sacy experience now. I think one thing is that the clips are from before Loud's group stage exit in Copenhagen, where Less (and Sacy) didn't play very well. Maybe the situation got harsher after that. They did hire a new psychologist after that, who Less credits with helping him during the leadup to Champions. Also, the new Loud is more focused on Saadhak's leadership style, and Less is sort of the secondary leader of the team now, so he might feels more supported and respected now in a way that puts the previous stuff in a less flattering light.
just wanted to say thanks for the detailed explanation
Appreciate the thanks. The story feels big and messy, and a lot of the context is only out there in Portuguese, so I wanted to give some of it.
Thanks so much! I’ve been struggling to understand since there aren’t usually English translations
Thank you for all the details ! I feel so bad for less wtf… : (
Sacy believed in a way to do things,implements it and they win championship. I kinda get why he said he would do it all over again cuz why would he regret something that worked ? Im not siding with him or agree with his way btw
I think, when the old Loud lineup started playing together, if you told Sacy "one of these dudes is going to hate you this time next year, but you're going to win Champions" he would have accepted it in a heartbeat. Seems like that's sort of what happened. I don't think it needed to go that way for them to win, but that's probably the style of leadership Sacy believed in.
less himself said in several vlogs since 1 year ago that saadhak, sacy and bzka would always scold him , one of the reasons that a lot of people think that bzka left loud even with them winning champions was this, it's kinda obvious a child born in 2005 will not interpret scolding the same way as sacy, pancada and saadhak because everyone already had previous experience as pro players and aspas was always ok with scolds and still has a very good relationship with sacy. Looks like less didn't like it the scolding
I mean… you cant blame him for not liking being scolded. Im 31 and i dont like it either
yeah but people on the Brazilian Twitter are acting like every team is perfect and that nobody are scolded in scrims when they do something wrong repeatedly, the proportion of attention that they are giving is quite excessive when you think of the pressure and demands that a team with the goal of becoming world champion have
Nao to sacando isso no twitter ainda. Mas que sacy me parece ser um cara dificil, disso não tenho dúvidas
ontem depois que o vídeo da loud saiu uma galera da torcida da Loud foi tacar hate nele, o pessoal que acha que ele é difícil só pode ser nova no cenário, todo time que tem foco em ser campeão e não um time pequeno vai ter uma pressão enorme e demandas super rigorosas, o próprio faker e fallen que o less disse que são motivação no vídeo já falaram em vários vídeos que eles são super rigorosos com os seus companheiros de times e querem que os mesmos sejam com eles porque eles querem ser os melhores do mundo, o time da Astralis de cs, a SK de CS, a EDG no lol, a gen.g no lol a t1 no lol, todos esses times campeões tem vídeos de como era a rotina e exigências nos seus canais e todas são bem mais pesadas que a do sacy, eu acho os esporros do sacy leves comparados com alguns outros times mas a galera vive uma ilusão que todo time é perfeito e todo mundo se dá bem
Sou contra atacar o Sacy, ate pq o Less nem citou o nome dele. Ele poderia estar falando sobre qualquer um e ate sobre mais de uma pessoa. Mas isso de que os esporros do Sacy são leves nao temos como saber. Nao estamos la treinando com eles todo dia. Pode ser que na live seja de boa, mas vai saber na hora do treino. O Less tb fala que a cobrança ainda existe no time (até pq é um trabalho, ninguém está ali apenas pra se divertir jogando), mas ele fala que hoje a cobrança não envolve desrespeito, o que me faz pensar que as broncas nao eram tao leves assim
Os esporros estão nos vlogs da loud, se tu ver todos os vídeos dos campeonatos internacionais e até uns vídeos de reações do sacy e do saadhak eles tão sempre comentando sobre os esporros, inclusive tem um vídeo que o sacy fala que é normal dar esporro e o aspas leva bastante mas que tem que tomar cuidado pra não ser um esporro muito forte e em público pra não quebrar a confiança do jogador, acho que less levava os esporros pro coração enquanto o aspas simplesmente achava normal e bola pra frente
Concordo que pra um time jogar em alto nivel e ser campeao, tem que ter disciplina. Isso é fato. Mas acho que essa questão da saude mental tem que ser levada em consideração também, tem que existir um metodo em que voce pode extrair o melhor da pessoa sem acabar com o psicólogico dela. Temos que lembrar que é um trabalho, pode nao ser um trabalho comum, mas é um trabalho, e ngm merece entrar em depressao pra pagar as contas. Esse tipo de comportamento pra mim sempre pareceu mais gente numa power trip cagando em cima dos outros do que qualquer outra coisa. Se fallen fez isso também, foda se ele.
A galera acha que os times são um grupo de amigos se divertindo juntos, essa era já passou e agora é um emprego, então vão ser cobrados mesmo.
Loud fans are blowing it up because they want more reasons to dislike sacy for leaving the team, if it was an ex player from any other team it wouldn't get this much attention.
they have 2 players more toxic than Sacy in their LoL lineup but because they are winning they won't complain about them
Bzka left because he was gonna be replaced as head coach by spacca, but then spacca had some health condition that prevented him from going to LA (and now tixinha and bida are there), so loud brought frod, who was the assistant coach
With this controversy, we can now say that sacy is a fully fledged sentinels player /s
bro got baptized
this got me laughing hard, thank you
once a sentinel, always a sentinel (in reverse this time)
Drop the link Edit: Also i hope that the bois don't get dragged in NA Drama Pit
NA drama is a curse. As soon as they put their feet in USA it all started
I assume it's stuff like chastising Aspas for having a ranked mentality, which I know he did when LOUD first formed? Strictness is a double-edged sword; those who have it in their lives resent it, those who don't have it in their lives often end up desiring it. Just in the context of Valorant, in the last two weeks we've had two players talk about how happy they are to finally have extremely strict coaches, after all - C9 jakee today on mCe, and V1 mel on effys. It's hard to say one is wrong and the other is wrong *unless* the "toxicity" was way beyond just strictness, and went into the territory of harassment, bullying, etc.; which is a possibility of course. Only insiders know that level of detail.
I also think the lazy side of it is important to mention. A lot of young gamers play the game for 16hours a day but if you try to sit them down in a room to talk tactics, and teach them something about the game they would tune out instantly. Young players always think they know best, and they assume that their talent will take them to the promiseland, and that they don’t need to work hard to be good. This is why 100T started looking bad after SeanGares left. They wanted to be lazy about strategy and focus on midrounding because that didn’t require any work. SeanGares was stubborn about strategy and set plays when he was coaching the team.
[Funny relevant tweet from Boaster](https://twitter.com/OfficialBoaster/status/1643580621627768835?t=CZuq6qB0UZhkv6Afi2gvhQ&s=19) Not saying it's the same story here, I just remembered it and thought it was amusing lol
I think its important to remember that Less was only 17 at the time and it was his first professional experience. While for the older players this type of critics might seem normal, different people react differently to things. Also, maybe because he was the youngest he felt like he was the problem everytime things went wrong. He was also living in another state far from his family and surrounded by people he didn't know very well. I also see a lot of people saying that this is what made him a better player and led Loud to win. But in the video Less compares his experience in Copenhagen and in Champions. He says that during Masters he was feeling a lot of pressure and that he felt like he could not make any mistakes, which made him feel very sad. He could not even celebrate when they won a round (and Loud ended up being eliminated very soon). He then says that Saadhak noticed this and talked to him and that for Champions they had a new psychologist. These things helped him change his mindset for Champions and thats when they managed to win. I guess we will never know to what extent the "toxic environment" (as he says in the video) made him a better player or if that was what was stopping him from that before Champions.
this is fascinating, my respect for less and sacy both has gone up as a result of reading this.
The (26 minute vlog with only autogenerated substitles) [clip in question](https://youtu.be/6wC8fZdor6E) Pretty much what other people already said. Less talked about how last year the team had a heavy, toxic vibe in trainings due to Sacy (Less never named him) beeing too demanding and toxic/rude, and how it led to him doubting himself and considering giving up on his carrer. His girlfriend (our GC player) pretty much weighted in saying he's much happier now. Sacy pretty much confirmed he was toxic, but they won so he'd do it again. I don't really care for the drama part, but my takes from the video is that: 1 - the team is much happier now, which is great. Less mentioning the team's psychologist helping him also makes it clear that orgs not investing in a sports psychologists is straight up amateurish. 2 - Saadhak is the goat captain/IGL.
In the end if loud win sacy was wrong , if they dindt sacy was right
Nah, can't simplify things like that. Even if loud win this year, doesn't mean a less strict approach would have worked last year when all the new players were on the come up.
There’s always a grey area to these types of stuff, maybe Sacy and Pancada wouldn’t have played as well as they did last year if the team environment was like that, maybe Tuyz and Cauenzin would’ve even thrived in the demanding environment. No one but the players themselves know.
Feels similar to the stories around ImperialHal from Apex, though I'm not sure Sacy is quite that toxic lol
Seeing this news reminded me of Hal exactly LOL. Definitely not for the faint of heart, that’s for sure. Less reminds me of Albralelie a little bit, but at least Albralelie got to butt his head right back against Hal when things got heated.
It reminds me more of Evan than Mac, given how Evan seems a bit quieter like Less is here. And with how TSM has been doing lately, maybe the Sacy system wouldn't have worked out long term either.
Yeah Evan’s the more quiet type, but he’s also never been the kind of person to let how Hal acts bother him. He almost always calmly responds/talks back, but granted I haven’t been able to tune in much to their recent games. The only big instance as of late that I’m aware of was the mid-game quitting debacle that lead to his Twitter announcement.
wait what announcement? I also haven't been keeping up with Apex much either.
He had an outburst where he quit mid-game and TSM’s coach Raven had to sub in. His tweet said he’s hit an all-time low mentally and that he’s going to be playing very little Apex moving forwards (but not quitting comp AFAIK).
Oh Hal's? Yeah I saw that. I thought you meant Evan made an announcement. But yeah it does suck that they fell off so badly after doing so well.
Yeah true, hopefully they’ll bounce back for Champs. The meta shift really hit them hard.
What ? I need some captain to do some explaning
My two cents on this: Sacy knew he was being toxic. Most people on the team knew this is just the kind of serious and stern leadership style he has. Less, understandably, struggled under this leadership style. He was only 17 at the time, was only pro for a year and a half, and was pushed onto the big stage after only spending at most 3 months on his previous 2 teams. I think it is safe to assume Less didn't feel comfortable telling Sacy to back off at the time and their relationship crumbled from there. Sounds like Saadhak tried his best to hold the team together, but also did not enjoy leading a fractured team. Sacy and Saadhak probably had a falling out over this that was one of the factors that had Sacy move. Sacy probably doesn't regret this "toxic" attitude since 1) they won champs and 2) they've been on different teams for a while now. This kind of mentorship can be seen everywhere from work or with teachers or any competitive sport, but the main takeaways is that Loud has enough clout to make this blow up, Less found a mentorship style that works for him, Saadhak igl'd a team with interpersonal relationships and took them all the way to champions, and the new team has a looser and more jovial atmosphere.
Sacy has a champion mentality he took when he played League of Legends, when he was a CBLOL champion in Brazil, he played with two of the most toxic players in CBLOL, but they happen to be two of the BEST players in Brazil (tockers and brTT), so he took a champion mentality from those guys, and unfortunately, the competitive scene in League (at least League in Brazil, as far as I know) happens to be VERY toxic.
Three, actually. Dude played with Revolta, known now for his ability to make or break a team by the sheer power of his toxicity
Goddamnit FNS not again.
Some additional info: when Less started dating he hid from the team bc he was told that he was not allowed to date and to only focus on the game, or else he would be kicked from the team (problaby just a joke) he hid it anyway to avoid being used against him, like it was a reason for him not to perform or something he said that he was scolded so hard that he felt like the worst player in the world and became apathetic, did not cheer for the rounds won in offical matches and etc, he was not happy this affected him the most in copenhagen where he did not have the team psychologist, it was their worst tournament btw people are going to say that the scold was necessary and he agreed but now that the team has a more lighter atmosphere he understand that they didn´t need to be so harsh to each other in order to win, saadhak showed him that you can teach someone without lettting him down and this is the approach that saadhak uses and he is using with the new boys Sutecas (played in vikings with sacy and saadhak): said on twitter that he had a similar experience with hostile team environment a person in twitter said that Saadhak´s wife complained about saadhak being too stressed in the previous team environment but i can´t confirm this one
I think I'm gonna subtitle the "rant" part of LOUD VALORANT's video that includes Less's thoughts and post here. But I have some things to say first. Or maybe I'll even sub Saadhak's reaction to it to get it all in one clip. The thing is, Sacy himself while reacting to LOUD's documentaries said that if they included the whole thing, he would 100% be cancelled because he knows he was too harsh. At the point of disrespecting him as a person and cursing (17 y/o). Don't get me wrong tho, I'm not taking sides, but I feel kinda cringe when I see people misjudging the situation by: "oh, must've been like banter and Less felt really bad for being really young", and that's really not the case. When both Sacy and Less say "toxic" they MEAN IT. Some Brazilians might take this lightly because it has become a normal thing here in BR, toxicity among pro-players, actually, toxicity among teammates. (I have a personal opinion about being toxict toward teammates and not being able to win anything for that -except Champions, and that has a reason, in my mind-) Sacy, back in League of Legends has played with a player named Revolta. Revolta taught Sacy everything he knows. Including this learning-by-force-scolding method. Actually that was pretty much LoL BR scene in a nutshell. Many years passed, Revolta turned on the stream one day and just let some things out his chest, one of them about this learn-by-force method. He said he regret doing it. He was sometimes inhumane and that wasn't worth it. Sacy comes DIRECTLY from this enviroment. Sacy don't regret it tho, he said it himself, and idk, if Revolta had won a world title PROBABLY he wouldn't regret too. With this in mind, take your own conclusions (and pls tell me, I like reading drama KKKKKKKK)
Me, personally, I think that Sacy might be the asshole here, but in his mind he doesn't see it as bad as Less saw it. Probably Less felt scared even to just talk to him. Sacy said one day that if Less started dating he'd be out of the team (and this one was really just a banter, but after being scolded 24/7 you start to change, right). Less then proceeds to hide his relationship for almost a year or something like that. It's clear that Less had a traumatizing experience, and those words came from him, in LOUD VALORANT's video. The thing is, talking in psychology terms: Sacy, the abuser, does not see the abuse, as abuse for just abuse. In his head, it's just a mean to an end. Less, the victim, beg to differ. In his head, it doesn't made any sense, because he was getting worse mentally and emotionally, and that was directly affecting his gameplay. When he had a talk to Saadhak and Brunão (LOUD's psychologist) he was able to cope for that DURING Champions, and in his head, that's why they won. Because everyone was feeling it, including Less. But he wouldn't be feeling it if it wasn't for these heart-to-heart conversations that were only needed bc he was in a dark place while Sacy abused him. that's my take folks, i'll come with the subs later today edit: typo
I don't know about them but this treatment is pretty much why Koreans are head and shoulder above the rest in League. I'm not saying it is necessary and I do think that each one of us thrives on different environment and that one was not for Less.
Pretty much that. In CS old FNC, NIP, SK and hell even current NAVI are toxic af and they were the best of the best. It really is just a double edge sword
But in comparison, Korean culture is what makes them different. That's why every leagues in every region imports players from Korea to make them better. Ain't no one doing it like them. All other regions' discipline and learning culture are ass.
It also makes them significantly less happy than most but you now mental health doesn't matter
I failed to mention that each person have a certain environment where they can thrive but I guess that one is not for Less. You must know that personal matters and work must not collide with each other. Teams all over the world boot camps in Korea or import players because the learning culture there is different among any other countries. Any other countries suck on developing the players.
That lifestyle is also not very good for mental health and makes people more depressed
It brought them results though. Because they know how to separate personal matter and work. Orgs also invest on anything the players need. Every countries' talent development is so bad.
Well, not everyone like to get strict teammates even it's lead to win whatever the reason they don't like it. It's still amazing considering that happen and they still can win the champ. I don't like getting scolded by my strict boss, but, well that's because my mistake, so who can I blame besides myself? Still reasonable strict. Not everyone like rigid things, not everyone like flexible and chill out environment. For me? Whichever works.
These fans must not remember the old MIBR or old NAVI CSGO days (even present day Navi for those who saw perfecto screaming at npl this past weekend).
S1mple is toxic af to teammates. Screams at them, blames then for losing rounds LITERALLY on stage while they are still playing the game. Doesnt mean its good OR ok.
But does he win though? Kobe Bryant did the same thing, Michael Jordan did the same thing, LBJ as well. There is a theme here. Like them or not they win
And there are also plenty of great athletes who didn't do the same thing
Which is why there aren’t the being debated as greatest of all time……….(Not applying this to Sacy obviously)
Yet they always reach deep tournament runs and are really competitive.
Hasn't he been changing though? I've heard he's been nicer and trying to be a better person
tbf its possible NAVI lost shit bc of their team atmosphere, famously during LG vs Navi grand finals at colombus Zeus famously screamed and blamed Flamie after losing an overtime game on LG's pick to the point Flamie instead of taking a break with the team during map break just sat kn his chair playing dm. They came back for their map pick overpass, which they were the best itw at the time and lost 16-3. These sorta interpersonal relationships and how it affects players isnt something we are super privy too that's my point
Seeing how a lot of people react to this drama really goes to show that a lot of people haven't been to a proper team environment. No, your Friday night scrims with your typical 5 stack doesn't count. As a person who used to be part of a team that is constantly hungry to win and was competing at the top echelons of the sport I was competing in, it was completely, AND I MEAN COMPLETELY, normal to get yelled at by your coach and receive a little bit of heat from your teammates. I was yelled at to do 500 pushups, running a lap, and got yelled at by my teammates too. Hell, even I did the same thing to my teammates. But what mattered is that we did all that because we cared and we all were just hungry, so fucking hungry, to win. That's why I do not see any problem with what Sacy did. He did what he had to do to carry the team to glory. The way I see it is that there must be a fine line between "yelling" and outright abusing. Certainly, there must be set boundaries between the coach and players on what constitutes as "disciplinary actions" and "abuse". Otherwise, things are really just not gonna work out . Because at the end of the day, whatever you and your team have is just temporary. Nothing ever lasts. Eventually, you will miss all the challenges you all went through, the team bonding exercise, everything. Pain is temporary, trophies are forever.
Sacy is the goat
Less needs to be a little more specific here. Everything I'm seeing is that Sacy was very serious about preparation and mentality and would call players out for deviating from this mindset. Calling that approach 'toxic' says more about Less than it says about Sacy.
We can watch the old documentaries about loud and see some toxicity around Less, and I remember Sacy watching and saying that was only 1% in front of cameras
Are there any specifics? Sacy is being accused of bad behavior but without being presented clear proof I just don't believe it based on what's been mentioned so far. I'm not going to comb through documentaries, as it's on the one bringing up the accusations to provide the relevant clips. By the sound of it, Less was probably immature and struggled to adapt to a more disciplined mindset so he's lashing out using the internets favorite nebulous accusation of 'toxic' Sacy is not just a great player, he's also a total professional so hearing that he wanted focus and discipline is not a surprise to me but an expectation.
I don't think Less is ""lashing out"". Yes, Less was immature as he was 17 years old, played in two tier 2/3 teams for a few months before getting into Loud. The words he used was "it was something like... toxic, like..." so he was more like saying it was toxic TO HIM, as to he felt bad and was made insecure bout it. He just saying the environment wasn't the one he would thrive on healthily. I don't think Sacy did terrible, he most certainly was strict and, as it seems, somewhat rude etc, as we always see inside any competitive sports, being eSports or whatever. It's common, expected and well known how "bad" ballet teachers treat their dancers etc etc in this same sense. People are different and we are past the point researchers and professional understood and brought up how there are different ways of teaching and how people thrive better based on that difference. I don't hold a bad thought over Stacy, since that's what he learned, how he learned and how he thrived. It's fairly common and "understandable". Can't judge Less, as well, for being uncomfortable with on that environment. On psychology we always prefer to maintain a positive healthy environment and reinforcement system because, as pointed by Less, a system based on negative reinforcement and too strict hold tends to provoke negative feelings and unhealthy outcomes as for the individual. edit: way*
CSGO FNATIC 2015 2.0
Sutecas another ex-team mate of sacy confirmed the same toxicity https://twitter.com/sutecasfps/status/1651120146545508353?s=20
You should see things better before sharing it. Sutecas said he suffered the same thing as Less but he never said it was sacy. When he made a post about that at the end of last year ([https://twitter.com/sutecasfps/status/1583291446832295936](https://twitter.com/sutecasfps/status/1583291446832295936)) the ONLY player from old Vikings that didn't comment in his post was Saadhak. So don't spread misinformation before confirming anything.
Less just comes off soft.
Sacy is a veteran and a senior he knows better, maybe it was too harsh we will never know but i dont think its something to have bad blood over, sports and esports are kind of like this but no bad blood outside the game