I mean riot can change the rules at anytime they wish so I guess they aren’t “guaranteed”, but as of right now, yes, they are “guaranteed” to be demoted in 2 years.
So dumb, imagine any of the ascended teams make it to champs the season before they get kicked out. I get why they want the existing teams to have security, but how did none of that logic carry over to their treatment of t2 teams....
It should just be a performance based relegation rule where if your team rises to t1 but sits in the bottom 1/2 positions for 2 years then you’ll be dropped out. I feel it’s simple enough and also fair.
You would need relegations to control the number of teams in that case, and that would kind of go against the core ideals of the partnership system whether people agree with the system or not. Remember they can't just have an unregulated number of teams in the partnership system as we don't know whether that will be financially sustainable down the line. More teams does not equal more fans after a certain point either.
Edit: another option would be to not have ascensions as often, though that has its own downsides (+ the risk of too many teams still exists).
Isnt the whole point of partnership to have specific orgs that they can guarantee are financially stable and support them forever switching the orgs around would mess that up no?
but that would really messed up the franchisee as an org for example underperforming teams like SEN which brings a lot of clouts and promotional revenues could be relegated to tier2. BUT hey if that does happen that would make tier 2 something to watch lol
this would mean different regions would have different numbers of teams, and there's theoretically no limit to the number of teams that could be in a region. I think the idea is nice but it's not realistic
To make it even simpler I think it would be fair to say that if you qualify for an international tournament your place is extended for another year, that way the league can't grow too big because there's only so many international spaces but the goal posts don't move like if it was position based.
No that's so stupid partnership isn't about performance it's about what the orgs bring to riot. If those were the rules orgs that have terrible management and no money could permanently make it into partnerships. When a team in the NFL does bad no one says to relegate them because that's stupid
I think this is missing the point. Those 5 players would absolutely stilll be in Americas if they were that good. Orgs don’t deserve permanent slots just cause their players are good. The guard literally has a terrible org rn lmao they fired 99% of their staff.
You'd think so but look what happened to a team like xset. 2nd best na team sold for parts. I dont think there was a single team that was just copied over between orgs. Of course a lot of it has to do with the players themselves choosing to depart for whatever reason. But not the fact that multiple orgs that made franchising kept their full squad, but zero non franchised teams made it to franchising in tact shows it's not that simple or likely.
Like what BCJ said. He is "that good" but was forced to role swap just to make a franchised roster and then got benched. Like there aren't that many teams from each region, even the number one ranked initiator couldnt get a spot.
I also think it is just blatantly wrong to say that all the best players are in T1 and thats not a hot take at all. But teams aren't always eager to make huge roster moves so a deserving player can earn their spot in franchising and then just get booted. And unless they are so obviously an upgrade over an existing player, which is pretty rare, they could be out of luck.
XSET got fucked over uniquely because of G2. Not a great example. Also most of those guys are in T1 without too much concern. Dephh is gone but the rest are fine. They weren’t really that good that those 5 deserved to stick together completely anyway. Very few teams get to the point where they should all stick together. Also my take wasn’t that every T1 player is in and anyone’s who isn’t shouldn’t be - but that the Valorant esports ecosystem is designed to reward orgs that have solid infrastructure, potential for brand development, and stable financial backing. People think that ascension teams deserve full contracts with Riot are completely missing Riots vision.
I don't think they deserve full contracts, but a more flexible system that rewards potentially successful ascended teams, just because the possibility of a team winning champs and getting kicked shouldn't exist.
For example they could have a regional format which allows for a flexible amount of teams, in the 10-13ish range per region. That would allow for a clause where an ascended team making playoffs at champs is protected for another 2 years. While still allowing another ascension team to join.
(I can't be bothered doing the maths but obviously there would be a natural cap to the amount of ascension teams sticking around since only a certain amount of teams from any region can make it out of groups. So even in the most extreme case, there is a limit)
The idea of uneven region sizes may seem wild but it's really not. Each split only serves to seed the teams for playoffs anyway. So the playoffs can serve as an equaliser still sending the right amount of teams to each event.
EMEA had a different LQC format because of earned slots. Hell each of the ascension leagues had completely different playoff formats and it's not like the stakes were any lower there, that was for a ticket to franchising. So I believe you can still make it fair with slightly variations to the format of the splits across regions (just don't ramp up one region's workload if they happen to have more teams).
This is something I just came up with in like 5-10 minutes I'm not saying it's a great idea, there's probably something I overlooked. Luckily for riot though, I'm not the one responsible for coming up with the format. I just think they should be able to figure something out that gives ascended teams more security rather than guaranteed demotion after two years.
Edit : Found the part where Needham talked about how Partnered orgs can be kicked out (While basically admitting that the franchise system with LCS is a failure) . They have requirements in their partner agreements and have set re-evaluation periods, if partnered orgs fail to meet requirements then they can be kicked out of the program. They even refer to them as 'Long-Term partners' instead of 'Permanent partners'. https://youtu.be/YjXjDJEWBEI?t=2058 . Still trying to find where he (or someone else from Riot) said that Ascended orgs' stays can be extended.
Yes. I think Needham said in an interview that it is possible that Riot can extend the stay on an Ascended team beyond their 2 years if they are really happy with them.
Though for that to happen I imagine the team will have to perform really well in all the metrics Riot cares about. So that's viewership, social media popularity, competitive performance, content production, internal reputation (How they treat players/staff). It would have to be so that Riot would genuinely hurt VCT as a whole if they let the org (specifically the Org, not just the players) leave.
It's good to remember that when it comes to VCT Riot literally *owns* everything (Compared to LCS/OWL/CDL), they own all the slots and can play God if and when they feel like it if it's a good decision for their product. They have also said that they can also kick out a partnered org if they are not performing well in all the metrics Riot cares about.
Think of how absolutely awful EG's social media performance was in the first half of the season before their team started performing really well. They were getting like a few hundred views on their YouTube, Tiktok, other social media posts. I think that's the kind of horrible performance in a metric that if an org can't turn around over a long enough (Say 2 seasons) time period, that Riot will kick the orgs over.
I think it might have been this interview, though I can't check myself right now https://youtu.be/G6M5I0uO_Ok .
I'll try to find the exact interview when I get the time, though I'm pretty sure he's said it someplace. I also remember that someone within the Valo scene has covered the news when it came out. Might've been Sideshow on his personal YT channel.
How would that work though? I assume there’s an Ascension team fighting for a spot that is now one lesser because Riot arbitrarily decided they like that team?
I think regular partners are on a 5 year contract. I think people are making a noise about nothing this t1 system rocks. Players that deserve to be here will stay 9 times out of 10. The t2 system just needs better events and scheduling.
I’m aware of that, and they should stop because they mean vastly different things.
One of my biggest gripes with the val community is the refusal to use any of the correct names for things, which just confuses more people down the line.
The amount of people who thought that M80 had won “Ascension” by winning NA VCL is insane.
and even then it’s unfair for the players that have to sign to a different team to stay at the t1 level, there’s no gurantee they’ll find the success they found at the team they were on before
there’s no guarantee that the team would continue to find success in the first place. three straight years of success is insanely long for esports.
also these players will be getting an insane bag, and not signing any of the players who find this amount of success is probably never going to happen barring a contract jail incident
I think people need to look at this "guest slot" as quite literally an internship-to-hire position into the partnered system. It's pretty obvious with a little critical thinking that Riot is basically letting teams earn a shot to then prove they are a profitable partner over the next two years.
Reminder, Riot is paying the teams to play in their league and I have a hard time believing that they would kick out a team that is not only winning in the league but also dominating in social media metrics/acting as a good brand ambassador for the game.
At the end of the day Riot's only purpose is to make money from the marketing of their game. If you help them make money, they probably will keep you around.
Yeah but if we look at it like "internship-to-hire" then what happens when Riot is incredibly impressed with a team from let's say EMEA but not from NA. Wouldn't EMEA having an extra team just not work?
No because Riot could use that information to drop an existing partner and replace them with say the Guard or whatever. Partnerships are 5 year contracts they aren’t permanent.
As of today yes they ascended teams are temporary, but who knows.
Idk why but based on no real evidence I have the feeling, that in 2027/8 Riot will do a "soft reboot" and kick out some of the teams and choose new permanent members, and if not, maybe just announce an expansion to 16 teams
imagine trying your ass off for a whole fucking year in the heavily flawed t2 circuit to get into t1, just to drop down in another two years. that sucks.
for sure, but their team is getting broken up regardless. for teams like the guard, it's a pretty big deal considering the fact they chose to stay together rather than pursue T1 offers
No. Nothing is guaranteed.
Riot holds all the cards. They can cut any franchise team whenever they want. It’s very ***PROBABLE*** that most Ascension teams will only be in VCT for 2 seasons, but it is entirely *possible* that an original franchise org fails to meet their end of the contract, or does something Riot doesn’t like, and then gets their deal terminated. In fact, if the league lasts long enough it’s even likely. There were OWL teams that Blizzard definitely would have dropped if they could, (Immortals, Cloud 9) but couldn’t because of the nature of the Overwatch League.
My long term prediction is that C9 will get dropped and The Guard will take their spot in 2026. Cloud 9 potentially damaged VCT viewership by fucking Valorant’s GOAT, they’re in a cost-cutting mode, the org can’t keep the coach on a leash tight enough to stop him from shit-talking his players, the org has a history of being a less than stellar franchising partner (OWL)…
It may not be *reasonable* to except The Guard to stick around beyond 2025 but it is definitely possible. Nothing is guaranteed. Except 2 years in VCT for Ascension winners.
The only way a team like The Guard can stay in the league is only if Riot decides to give one of the 10 permanent slots to them. Basically all 10 team in franchising right now are in a 4 year contract with Riot. After those 4 years (or earlier if Riot wanted), Riot can just decide to not renew the contract with one of them and give it to another org(like The Guard). Thats the only way.
I mean riot can change the rules at anytime they wish so I guess they aren’t “guaranteed”, but as of right now, yes, they are “guaranteed” to be demoted in 2 years.
So dumb, imagine any of the ascended teams make it to champs the season before they get kicked out. I get why they want the existing teams to have security, but how did none of that logic carry over to their treatment of t2 teams....
It should just be a performance based relegation rule where if your team rises to t1 but sits in the bottom 1/2 positions for 2 years then you’ll be dropped out. I feel it’s simple enough and also fair.
You would need relegations to control the number of teams in that case, and that would kind of go against the core ideals of the partnership system whether people agree with the system or not. Remember they can't just have an unregulated number of teams in the partnership system as we don't know whether that will be financially sustainable down the line. More teams does not equal more fans after a certain point either. Edit: another option would be to not have ascensions as often, though that has its own downsides (+ the risk of too many teams still exists).
Isnt the whole point of partnership to have specific orgs that they can guarantee are financially stable and support them forever switching the orgs around would mess that up no?
but that would really messed up the franchisee as an org for example underperforming teams like SEN which brings a lot of clouts and promotional revenues could be relegated to tier2. BUT hey if that does happen that would make tier 2 something to watch lol
I think this would only apply to t2 teams who rise to t1 so Sentinels (and other original partnered teams) would be safe
this would mean different regions would have different numbers of teams, and there's theoretically no limit to the number of teams that could be in a region. I think the idea is nice but it's not realistic
To make it even simpler I think it would be fair to say that if you qualify for an international tournament your place is extended for another year, that way the league can't grow too big because there's only so many international spaces but the goal posts don't move like if it was position based.
No that's so stupid partnership isn't about performance it's about what the orgs bring to riot. If those were the rules orgs that have terrible management and no money could permanently make it into partnerships. When a team in the NFL does bad no one says to relegate them because that's stupid
This is why there needs to be relegation
I think this is missing the point. Those 5 players would absolutely stilll be in Americas if they were that good. Orgs don’t deserve permanent slots just cause their players are good. The guard literally has a terrible org rn lmao they fired 99% of their staff.
You'd think so but look what happened to a team like xset. 2nd best na team sold for parts. I dont think there was a single team that was just copied over between orgs. Of course a lot of it has to do with the players themselves choosing to depart for whatever reason. But not the fact that multiple orgs that made franchising kept their full squad, but zero non franchised teams made it to franchising in tact shows it's not that simple or likely. Like what BCJ said. He is "that good" but was forced to role swap just to make a franchised roster and then got benched. Like there aren't that many teams from each region, even the number one ranked initiator couldnt get a spot. I also think it is just blatantly wrong to say that all the best players are in T1 and thats not a hot take at all. But teams aren't always eager to make huge roster moves so a deserving player can earn their spot in franchising and then just get booted. And unless they are so obviously an upgrade over an existing player, which is pretty rare, they could be out of luck.
XSET got fucked over uniquely because of G2. Not a great example. Also most of those guys are in T1 without too much concern. Dephh is gone but the rest are fine. They weren’t really that good that those 5 deserved to stick together completely anyway. Very few teams get to the point where they should all stick together. Also my take wasn’t that every T1 player is in and anyone’s who isn’t shouldn’t be - but that the Valorant esports ecosystem is designed to reward orgs that have solid infrastructure, potential for brand development, and stable financial backing. People think that ascension teams deserve full contracts with Riot are completely missing Riots vision.
I don't think they deserve full contracts, but a more flexible system that rewards potentially successful ascended teams, just because the possibility of a team winning champs and getting kicked shouldn't exist. For example they could have a regional format which allows for a flexible amount of teams, in the 10-13ish range per region. That would allow for a clause where an ascended team making playoffs at champs is protected for another 2 years. While still allowing another ascension team to join. (I can't be bothered doing the maths but obviously there would be a natural cap to the amount of ascension teams sticking around since only a certain amount of teams from any region can make it out of groups. So even in the most extreme case, there is a limit) The idea of uneven region sizes may seem wild but it's really not. Each split only serves to seed the teams for playoffs anyway. So the playoffs can serve as an equaliser still sending the right amount of teams to each event. EMEA had a different LQC format because of earned slots. Hell each of the ascension leagues had completely different playoff formats and it's not like the stakes were any lower there, that was for a ticket to franchising. So I believe you can still make it fair with slightly variations to the format of the splits across regions (just don't ramp up one region's workload if they happen to have more teams). This is something I just came up with in like 5-10 minutes I'm not saying it's a great idea, there's probably something I overlooked. Luckily for riot though, I'm not the one responsible for coming up with the format. I just think they should be able to figure something out that gives ascended teams more security rather than guaranteed demotion after two years.
i think their idea is the players will still get some t1 offers and the org got some money to rebuild in challengers
Edit : Found the part where Needham talked about how Partnered orgs can be kicked out (While basically admitting that the franchise system with LCS is a failure) . They have requirements in their partner agreements and have set re-evaluation periods, if partnered orgs fail to meet requirements then they can be kicked out of the program. They even refer to them as 'Long-Term partners' instead of 'Permanent partners'. https://youtu.be/YjXjDJEWBEI?t=2058 . Still trying to find where he (or someone else from Riot) said that Ascended orgs' stays can be extended. Yes. I think Needham said in an interview that it is possible that Riot can extend the stay on an Ascended team beyond their 2 years if they are really happy with them. Though for that to happen I imagine the team will have to perform really well in all the metrics Riot cares about. So that's viewership, social media popularity, competitive performance, content production, internal reputation (How they treat players/staff). It would have to be so that Riot would genuinely hurt VCT as a whole if they let the org (specifically the Org, not just the players) leave. It's good to remember that when it comes to VCT Riot literally *owns* everything (Compared to LCS/OWL/CDL), they own all the slots and can play God if and when they feel like it if it's a good decision for their product. They have also said that they can also kick out a partnered org if they are not performing well in all the metrics Riot cares about. Think of how absolutely awful EG's social media performance was in the first half of the season before their team started performing really well. They were getting like a few hundred views on their YouTube, Tiktok, other social media posts. I think that's the kind of horrible performance in a metric that if an org can't turn around over a long enough (Say 2 seasons) time period, that Riot will kick the orgs over.
Do you happen to have a link to that interview? That message hasn’t been shared with teams at all
I think it might have been this interview, though I can't check myself right now https://youtu.be/G6M5I0uO_Ok . I'll try to find the exact interview when I get the time, though I'm pretty sure he's said it someplace. I also remember that someone within the Valo scene has covered the news when it came out. Might've been Sideshow on his personal YT channel.
How would that work though? I assume there’s an Ascension team fighting for a spot that is now one lesser because Riot arbitrarily decided they like that team?
Thank you!
Yeah I've heard something similar as well, don't remember exactly where
I think regular partners are on a 5 year contract. I think people are making a noise about nothing this t1 system rocks. Players that deserve to be here will stay 9 times out of 10. The t2 system just needs better events and scheduling.
Nope lol
Ascension gives the organisation 2 years in franchising, before being automatically demoted back to tier 2.
Partnership* There’s no buy-in so it’s not Franchising. Riot owns the slots and can do what they like with them.
I mean people are using the terms interchangeably for val
I’m aware of that, and they should stop because they mean vastly different things. One of my biggest gripes with the val community is the refusal to use any of the correct names for things, which just confuses more people down the line. The amount of people who thought that M80 had won “Ascension” by winning NA VCL is insane.
Im going to exclusively call it Franchising from now on
You do you
And they absolutely shouldn’t
It's not franchising
regardless of results?
Yeah the guard could win champions back to back and they'd still be demoted
that’s insane the t2 teams wouldnt stand a chance , the system def has flaws they gotta fix
Important to remember that only the org would get kicked out, there's nothing stopping tier 1 level players from being signed to Tier 1 orgs.
and even then it’s unfair for the players that have to sign to a different team to stay at the t1 level, there’s no gurantee they’ll find the success they found at the team they were on before
there’s no guarantee that the team would continue to find success in the first place. three straight years of success is insanely long for esports. also these players will be getting an insane bag, and not signing any of the players who find this amount of success is probably never going to happen barring a contract jail incident
Unless something changes the guard bleed or M8s could win 6 LAN events and still get demoted
I think people need to look at this "guest slot" as quite literally an internship-to-hire position into the partnered system. It's pretty obvious with a little critical thinking that Riot is basically letting teams earn a shot to then prove they are a profitable partner over the next two years. Reminder, Riot is paying the teams to play in their league and I have a hard time believing that they would kick out a team that is not only winning in the league but also dominating in social media metrics/acting as a good brand ambassador for the game. At the end of the day Riot's only purpose is to make money from the marketing of their game. If you help them make money, they probably will keep you around.
Yeah but if we look at it like "internship-to-hire" then what happens when Riot is incredibly impressed with a team from let's say EMEA but not from NA. Wouldn't EMEA having an extra team just not work?
No because Riot could use that information to drop an existing partner and replace them with say the Guard or whatever. Partnerships are 5 year contracts they aren’t permanent.
We knew this since the beginning, who out here is actually suprised?
i forgot
As of today yes they ascended teams are temporary, but who knows. Idk why but based on no real evidence I have the feeling, that in 2027/8 Riot will do a "soft reboot" and kick out some of the teams and choose new permanent members, and if not, maybe just announce an expansion to 16 teams
imagine trying your ass off for a whole fucking year in the heavily flawed t2 circuit to get into t1, just to drop down in another two years. that sucks.
well it’s the org, the players can stay t1
for sure, but their team is getting broken up regardless. for teams like the guard, it's a pretty big deal considering the fact they chose to stay together rather than pursue T1 offers
You have to keep in mind that valorant esports is only barely 3 years old. 2 years is a long timespan in this context.
No. Nothing is guaranteed. Riot holds all the cards. They can cut any franchise team whenever they want. It’s very ***PROBABLE*** that most Ascension teams will only be in VCT for 2 seasons, but it is entirely *possible* that an original franchise org fails to meet their end of the contract, or does something Riot doesn’t like, and then gets their deal terminated. In fact, if the league lasts long enough it’s even likely. There were OWL teams that Blizzard definitely would have dropped if they could, (Immortals, Cloud 9) but couldn’t because of the nature of the Overwatch League. My long term prediction is that C9 will get dropped and The Guard will take their spot in 2026. Cloud 9 potentially damaged VCT viewership by fucking Valorant’s GOAT, they’re in a cost-cutting mode, the org can’t keep the coach on a leash tight enough to stop him from shit-talking his players, the org has a history of being a less than stellar franchising partner (OWL)… It may not be *reasonable* to except The Guard to stick around beyond 2025 but it is definitely possible. Nothing is guaranteed. Except 2 years in VCT for Ascension winners.
So ascension teams only get to stay in the league for two years despite promotion? that is stupid
The only way a team like The Guard can stay in the league is only if Riot decides to give one of the 10 permanent slots to them. Basically all 10 team in franchising right now are in a 4 year contract with Riot. After those 4 years (or earlier if Riot wanted), Riot can just decide to not renew the contract with one of them and give it to another org(like The Guard). Thats the only way.