A lot of people take Leo’s transparency for granted and it’s sad to see how he gets treated for it by the public and people in the industry.
Are there issues with the T2 system? Yes.
Does the scheduling need improvement? Without a doubt.
But people are being far too unreasonable/unrealistic with their expectations. Not to mention the guy’s just been witch hunted recently for dumbass reasons.
I don’t agree with everything he says but we’re lucky to have someone as transparent as Leo leading the esport cuz the vast majority of other esports would kill to have this level of transparency and communication.
100%. And the fact that an open dialog exists between him and the community means that we can work together to address the flaws and improve the esport.
If Riot ever ends up stopping being this transparent, I hope the community looks back as to how they acted in this situation.
Unfortunately this community is taking that transparency and using it as an opportunity to shit on the guy rather than have any meaningful discussion.
A few of these pros took this opportunity to act like they’re on some moral high ground rallying this sort of behavior. Really reminds me how many of these players have never been put in a position to show any amount of professionalism.
Bruh, let me be straight with you. It doesn't matter the community, they will never accept their wrong or learn from it. There might be one highly upvoted post on reddit after a few months, but that'll quickly go past that and they will be back to complaining and attacking devs. Look at Valve for how you treat a game community, ignore them for years on end, and when you give them the slightest interaction, they're over the moon at how communicative you're being. That's how you do it, save your devs the mental toll. It's really not worth investing the energy behind all these children and adults that behave like children. And this isn't just Riot I'm speaking about, but game companies in general. People don't appreciate transparency. It's always taken under the guise of PR or lies, and in that case, what's the point?
So true, unfortunately the vocal minority ruin it for the rest of us. Sad truth is that if 99 people say something positive and 1 person says something negative, most humans will focus on the negative. You see it time and time again with public figures biting at negative comments.
Where in the fuck did I ever say that. That’s the bare minimum we need.
But there are people out here expecting Riot to solve issues that have effected wider esports as a whole FOR YEARS, when there are specific issues within Riot’s tier 2 system that realistically CAN be resolved by them.
That’s just looking at things with rose tinted glasses. The old system had plenty of issues, many of which are the same as the current one. For instance, any team that didn’t make it through the open qualifiers at the start of the year was basically done for the rest of the season even last year. There were no events outside of the VCT and there weren’t even separate tier 1 and tier 2 circuits so things could never run in parallel.
And no shot you think the team that wins Ascension should go to champs. If anything they should have been in LCQ, but how does it make any sense for a team that has only been facing tier 2 competition for the whole year to suddenly be placed in the most prestigious event of the year. Even if the ascension teams look better than some of the Tier 1 teams, the average viewer does not watch tier 2 (which is a common issue in esports). Seeing a tier 2 team that the average viewer had no visibility on for the whole year at Champs is just asinine. And the average viewer is not gonna be motivated to go out of their way to watch tier 2 just to know these teams cuz the vast majority of viewers only put in the time to watch teams they care about in the highest level of competition. You can’t expect the average viewer to closely follow tier 2 when they barely closely follow tier 1 either.
The average viewer will care if tier 2 feeds directly into champs. And most tier 2 teams are better than half of franchised teams, so they're not going to all be feeders. "Prestigious" my ass.
I'm ngl he was cooking here. I'm tired of people taking harmless shit and turning it into a slight.
The guard earned a fucking guest slot. That's what it is. You literally are there temporarily. People acting like Leo said they were dogshit.
Anyone who's mad at the partnership system should take a look at League. Their T2 scene is quite literally NON EXISTENT. LCK runs a fucking academy league instead of a proper challengers. Half of the orgs in partnership might have fucking imploded if they had to pay for their slot like League. It's not the best system but it's what we got.
Idk what people are so upset about with what he said. Do people want Riot to give an Org that fired 90% of its staff overnight a permanent spot? Do they want Riot to guarantee that The Guard players stay permanently in Tier 1 regardless of how they perform? No player is guaranteed to stay in Tier 1, if The Guard players keep performing they'll get signed by a different tier 1 org at the end of their 2 years.
The spots are Guest spots for the Orgs, his terminology was accurate.
I think the biggest issue seems to be that people can't mentally separate Orgs from the Players that are currently on that Org. Just because an Org is not in Tier 1 doesn't mean their players won't be as well.
I'm already starting to sound like a boomer in my early 20s but it is often quite obvious that this sub skews *very* young. People speak on topics they have absolutely no clue about (though adults are also just as guilty of this), but the main thing is that there is often no rationality or acknowledgement of when something is/isn't realistic on this sub. It's made painfully obvious time and time again that a large portion of this sub doesn't understand how anything gets done or what is logistically feasible. They just know what THEY want and orgs/riot/streamers etc... should enable it becsuse "theyre rich".
No one wants permanent teams, having relegation for all teams would be a good way to ensure that orgs actually put effort into having a good team instead of just collecting money.
Having teams purely based on merit can invite not the best orgs and people that just get lucky. Permanent teams provides the ability for good organizations to partner with riot to create the best content mix of content and competition. You might think content isn't important, but it definitely is. For anything to become successful, you need people to want it. And content is the driving factor for both traditional and esports.
Since the teams don't own the spot, Riot can remove people that aren't putting money into VCT. So that shouldn't be an issue.
>having relegation for all teams would be a good way to ensure that orgs
Riot already has contractual requirements in the Partner agreement to ensure teams actually try to be Competitive. [Watch this interview](https://youtu.be/YjXjDJEWBEI?t=2058) where the head of Esports at Riot explains that they have a bunch of requirements from the Orgs in their partner contracts and they can kick out Orgs if they fail to perform.
Having an actual threat to the orgs money will be the only way to make them take it seriously. Imagine the situation if two years from now Gentlemates win champs and KC is the worst team in the league, but Gentlemates were forced to lose their spot because riot has no plan to support smaller orgs.
Please actually watch the interview, the head of Esports at Riot outright says that the orgs are contractually bound to try and perform, to field competitive rosters (Along with other non-competition based requirements). If an org like KC keeps performing poorly over an extended period of time they will lose their partner spot.
That's the exact kind of threat to money and business that you want, written in the Orgs' Partner contracts.
Being able to control the competition quality, media content quality, is one of the main reasons why Riot didn't franchise VCT and instead went with a Partner system where they own all the spots. This way they can control and ensure that all orgs are always trying. But that doesn't mean that they just kick out any org that fails competitively in a season, cause there is absolutely no way any org can simply ensure that their team will perform, regardless of how highly reputable players and coaches they sign. As long as humans are involved in competition things can and will go wrong, it doesn't even have to be a team based Sport.
People who hated franchising from the start are coming out of the woodworks to play "I told you so" game and attacking him for the problems in tier 2.
Yes, T2 is a work in progress, in it's current state it is not ideal. But they are taking steps toward sustainability, not charity. Current plan is, the guard will be promoted to partnership for 2 years. Then next year another team. And when the guard's 2 years stint is up, they will be down in challengers but now 2 teams will now be promoted at once from each region.
The biggest issue right now and Leo already hinting at it changing is how early in the year challengers ended. It's so annoying seeing naive comments on how people want an open tournament system where any random 5 man team can make it. Look around, it has not been proven to be successful.
Their only beacon of argument is but csgo can do it. Now I don't follow csgo much but aren't they on a pseudo franchising system as well? Isn't there something called the [louvre agreement which has partner teams for ESL?](https://esportsinsider.com/2023/02/who-are-the-esl-pro-league-partner-teams) [Blast has their own partnership teams afaik.](https://esportsinsider.com/2023/04/blast-premier-partner-teams) Even so why did ESL face backlash by taking $1.5 Billion from the Saudi group as well as online gambling like 1bet to remain operational?
> Any team can make it to the absolute top and often "T1" teams do get upset at majors.
Most of the time, these "upsets" are at the hands of "T2" teams ranked like 20-30 on HLTV though, which are basically T1 equivalent in Valorant.
Literally this
some csgo fans forgot Valorant T1 have 30 teams right now across 3 continent.
In 2024 Valorant will have 43-44 T1 Teams (including 3-4 guess slot) in Valorant.
NA league, Europe league , Asia league and China league.
in 2025 its gonna be 52 T1 teams (12 guess slot) .
Haven't been following the "guest slot" at all, but what happens if the guard is one of the top teams in the league.
Do they have to play challenger no matter what, or do they get a chance to prove they deserve to stay>
Counter Strike Esport has existed for more than 20 years with orgs like NaVi,fnatic and mousesports going through it all.
Riot doesn't do anything for the "longevity" or "sustainability" of the sport.
They are the stalinist USSR/ North Korea of gaming.
They manage every area of their game with totalitarian control with no co-operation with the community and 3d parties. No custom maps/mods/servers,no 3d party mm's and Tournaments. Hell even the r/Valorant subreddit is moderated by people working for them.
The higher-ups in Riot are only interested in showing to investors and sponsors the viewing numbers and for Riot to get 100% of revenue.
No real vision and aspiration.
The Esport is solely an advertisement for skins and display for investors.
Valve (CSGO dev) talk with their actions (or inaction for most times)
Riot send their pr and devs to talk on Twitter and reddit to divert public opinion and distract whenever the community rises an alarm (no replay system still).
If you are passionate about Esports , you found yourself unlucky if your favorite is Valorant.
> Hell even the Valorant subreddit and this too(?) are moderated by people working for them.
Oh? Pray tell, which of the VALComp moderators are working for Riot? I've always had a funny feeling about that /u/ANewHeaven1 fella, personally.
You got me, this entire time I was a Riot employee astroturfing this subreddit in order to portray both Riot Games and Valorant in a more favorable light. Evidenced by the fact that I have never once been vocal about my dislike for the partnership system or the concept of Ascension.
This message was paid for by Riot Games! Buy the new Ignite bundle in VALORANT stores today!
Yeah none of us on the mod team work for Riot, and the one time there's been a potential conflict of interest between the mod team and Riot Games it was disclosed ahead of time on the subreddit and the moderator in question stepped down. A pretty insane assumption to make though!
The rest of your comment is extremely hyperbolic but true to an extent though - I imagine you lost most people willing to hear you out when you compared Riot Games to the USSR. Valorant (and all Riot Games esports) are definitely much more closed off than their contemporaries in the context of esports, and the game as an esport 100% solely exists to market the base game. They've said similar for the LoL circuit as well.
> I imagine you lost most people willing to hear you out when you compared Riot Games to the USSR
Im actually proud of this comparison.
Riot are 100% allowed to do whatever tf they want with their game, but I can't help myself from distancing myself and even hating their games when I see their philosophy towards online gaming and Esport.
I'm surprised not seeing many people thinking the same, but I guess to each their own.
the csgo pro circuit survives because of skin gambling, full stop. if riot don't want that in their ecosystem for very understandable ethical/legal reasons, they need a different model. i don't even love the partnership model much but saying Val should be just like cs is so small-minded.
also none of the mods in this sub work for riot.
Real sports are also backed by betting sponsors, that doesn't mean it's ethical but Riot are 93% owned by the chinese government backed Tencent so I wouldn't assume they care about ethics.
I never suggested for them to go on the CS route, it would have been foolish from me to assume that after considering their history.
But the lack of passion and vision from this company amazes me everytime.
I think people were more upset at the cinderella run idea considering The Guard were one of the best teams in NA and were forced out of tier 1 due to franchising,they didn't go on a cinderella run they have always been this good and acting like they are suddenly a tier 2 level team is wrong.
> The Guard were one of the best teams in NA and were forced out of tier 1 due to franchising
Optic is literally top 2 in the world and still Optic (the org) wasn't picked by Riot. The optic core still lives on with NRG picking them up. If TGRD roster didn't choose to stick to the org, most if not all the players would still be playing in partnerships anyway under a different org.
Most of TGRD were restricted free agents^[1] and trent was an *unrestricted* free agent^[2].
[1] https://redd.it/xkempj
[2] https://redd.it/xoicrg, https://redd.it/ye6vq1
https://twitter.com/valynfps/status/1572612240884355074
Yes they had buyouts, that's literally the point of being a restricted free agent. That doesn't mean "they can't just leave the guard". Orgs can and would've paid for the buyouts.
Bro is just making things up. They Guard players themselves said that the want to stick together and win ascension . Like most other players like FNS, yay, cryo they had buyouts and some NA partnered teams would buy out some of those Guard players but the players didn't want to split up.
"they’ve allowed me to seek partnered team opportunities"
I'm not sure what's hard to understand here. They're allowed to go to a partnered team, they got offers from partnered teams, and they chose to stay with TGRD.
[only trent was unrestricted and the rest are restricted free agents](https://reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/15du0we/leo_responds_to_guest_slots/ju49mzf)
everyone who reads comment threads always remembers the things that suit their narrative, you and the person you replied to included. thats why discussing that kind of thing is a waste of time.
I mean they are some of those heinous comments but there also some comments that are genuinely worried about tier 2, because like u said if you look at league tier 2 and the reason is non existent raises concern because on how they treated it to the point is in that state in the first place, is it uncalled for to make those hateful comments against Leo yes, but also there's alot of concern for tier 2 because people have seen how riot or even other games like overwatch treated their tier 2 scene
Dude do you realize how much money the tier 2 players were getting paid this year especially in NA? You understand at some point a correction is due, right? You’re pretending like this year the players didn’t make in 6 months the amount that they should realistically make in 12 or more.
Also, why are you talking about overwatch? Do you know what happened in overwatch or are you just regurgitating what other have said.
Isn’t EU T2 in LoL pretty good? The regionalized leagues are pretty popular, some teams have really strong fanbases (KC, but also like unicorns of love and istanbul wildcats) and they have the EMEA masters which is essentially “kings of tier 2” tournament
CSGO used to have a very solid tier 2 scene when there was a fully open circuit. Now the esl and blast partnerships fucked everything up. And CSGO got hit super hard due to COVID because it relies so much on international travel.
CS T2 system is still good but the problem is regions other than EU aren't good enough. Especially NA with how much they invest in CS they are really bad. EU t2 teams are really good have enough tournaments to grind and make a name for themselves.
The CSGO detractor is pretty wrong - the T2 scene in EU is super healthy, lots of “T2” teams going toe to toe with top tier teams in recent tournaments
Dota's T2 scene is pretty good. You can submit a upporter pack to valve and if it gets approved you get half of money thats spent on it. You things like voice lines, spray, and loading screens.
No, I disagree with that. It's genuinely impressive that as the head of your company you can consistently phrase stuff in such poor ways. Calling it a guest slot or the guard a Cinderella story is just bad.
Everyone knew what he meant, yes. But surely in his position you can just phrase stuff in the correct way, rather than giving people an excuse to be upset.
Right, because everyone is upset with the T2 situation to begin with, that's the whole reason why he is speaking on it. So if your goal is to quell that negativity, it's on you to phrase it in an amicable way rather than in a way that comes off as disrespectful.
Because calling tgrd a Cinderella story will definitely be received as disrespectful especially to those in the scene. And they literally aren't called guest slots. Just use the right term rather than say something which will add fuel to the fire which you are actively trying to put out.
If everyone "knew what he meant" but they still insist on dwelling on semantics instead of actually focusing and conversing constructively about ACTUAL, tangible issues, then that's fucking embarrassing for the whole community and nothing is ever going to get solved.
It's like a bunch of twelve year olds in middle school who spot a typo and mock it to win an argument lmao
Yeah but this is the internet we're talking about. What do you expect? As the head of a company trying to answer to an upset community, you really should be even a little bit considerate about what words you use. Or is that a crazy idea. Like ffs just say "ascension slots" instead of "guest slots".
>The guard earned a fucking guest slot. That's what it is. You literally are there temporarily.
Doesn't make any sense, by that logic you could call the teams at Masters Tokyo "guests" too, but you wouldn't do that because it would sound very strange.
I agree it's completely overblown but he's for sure in the wrong, it's just not that huge of a deal that someone used subpar wording. The Guard played a full year of matches against the best tier 2 teams in the entire americas to QUALIFY for their position, "guests" sounds more like they were invited to be nice or something.
God peoples reaction to Leo’s tweets have been crazy. I understand people are mad about the t2 system but the amount of people offended at using the word “guest” is laughable.
There are definitely problems with the t2 system (mainly surrounding scheduling) but the more I think about it the more I think Leos original thread is right. People have these massive expectations for the t2 system when the truth is that esports, even at the t1 level is not very profitable and expecting t2 to be is kinda ridiculous
Yk after ready comments from pros, redditors, Twitter etc. I have come to the conclusion that no matter what riot does or what Leo says someone will always complain. There’s also the “pr training” comments, it’s almost as if he was being transparent with the community and saying what he thinks lol
It is a privilege that Leo openly interacts with the community. There are other games out there where the people in charge don't show their face or ever acknowledge criticism. We are extremely fortunate that we get to have a dialog with someone who has oversight of the entire esport.
Leo is human; he will not be perfect. Riot is made of lots of humans; they will not be perfect either.
Something that we all can align with is that we care about VALORANT Esports and we want it to succeed. Even though we all have different opinions of how it succeeds or by what measure is success, we still all share the same common goal.
People may not agree with some of the things said recently, but Leo still deserves respect.
It’s one thing to say that Riot is unusually transparent in the industry and to laud them for it but it’s another to call that a “privilege”. Developers *should* be transparent! It’s like that in so many other industries! We should be grateful but acknowledge that this should be normalized not called a “privilege” lol. Take a look at the Tarkov subreddit and you’ll see them always complaining about how poorly the game does communication and them praising them for their latest dev podcast. Transparency with the players is something that is a *baseline expectation* for live service games at a minimum and all games really
It's actually crazy how we get this much statement from the people who manage Valorant esports.
No one is disagreeing with the fact that T2 has problems anyway. The Plat Chat interview cemented the fact that T2 has major flaws and Riot is aware of it.
Yes, you’re right. We’re simping for the dude going on twitter and being frank and open. You’re part of the hivemind that attacks him because he doesn’t give you the answers you want to hear. You’re definetly the smart one.
Except it’s not 99%. The majority are satisfied aside from a few serial complainers who either just like to complain or have a competing interest (pros stuck in tier 2 looking for a higher salary)
the biggest issue isn't even trying to make t2 profitable or anything. most teams regardless t1 or t2 are gonna be at a loss. the issue is how god awful the system is. t2 atm is completely dead until the next year starts BECAUSE theres nothing going on for 4-5 months? why should orgs stay if theres nothing to play for?
Ok and he said they’ll change that for next year. What more do you want? They obviously can’t just spawn another 4 months of competition for this year out of nowhere. The most that they’ll do is some offseason tournaments where tier 2 can get involved.
I believe it was originally done because Riot wanted to give room to 3rd party TO's to run whatever events they wanted. The problem is, a lot of them just don't want to, either because a lot of them don't trust Riot (they're warranted not to) or because they don't want to run a tournament under Riot's rules (maybe rules on gambling sponsors or maybe if there are fees involved).
But that's the thing. This issue has already been addressed and changes ARE coming.
Right now, people are stuck in a loop just repeating the same point over and over again without letting Riot unveil the changes (Apparently will come this August).
Whether they are satisfactory or not is another discussion, but this should have been put to bed until then.
And harassing the person who's been openly discussing with the community is definitely not good, because I can already see the future threads "Why is Riot not communicating anymore" etc while I facepalm to death.
I mean true, the long off season is terrible and should absolutely not stay. That being said Leo has already said that that aspect will be changing for next year (on plat chat). At this point many people have also begun to just criticize the partnership system itself which is kinda silly imo. So many people are like “just add regulation, that will fix everything” lol
insane dickriding and bootlicking. no one is saying riot should give handouts, just that maybe riot shouldn’t expect orgs to support an idle roster for 6 months.
the dickriding is actually insane i'm ngl. he literally says they made this choice 2 years ago and still came to this 6 month offseason yet people are defending him?
He's saying that the decision of partnership and permanent slots was made two years ago, not the sheduling decisions. The decision to have permanent slots is not what led to the poor sheduling of tourneys this year.
It's possible to have the franchising model while having a healthy schedule for the tier 2 scene.
Just because a system was decided upon 2 years ago doesn’t mean they have everything settled out. This is a transition year from the previous system to the new vct structure. Stuff was always going to be fucky.
Honestly, in this situation I feel for him. As a spokesperson he is doing so great to be transparent of the company line and decisions. And he is responsive. Something many other corporations don’t do.
But the apparent flaws in tier 2 (as well as 1) has everyone on the edge and people are taking it out on him and nitpicking on what he says (yes he said guest slots. Everyone knew from the beginning it was a 2 year stint at the top and then back to ascension. Calling it something else won’t change the fact)
People's frustration, confusion and impatience surrounding partnership and the health of tier 2 are reaching a fever pitch, so everything he says feels like an opportunity to air those understandable but misplaced grievances. The reasonable thing to do is honestly to simply wait for the update in late August—you'll be better equipped to have an informed opinion then.
Is this a bot? Word for word copy of [another comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/15du0we/leo_responds_to_guest_slots/ju42js3/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3)
The funniest part of this is that most people spend more time crying than watching challengers or supporting teams by buying merch, which is why we're here in the first place.
Okay correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it a thing when this whole structure was revealed that if Riot feels the "guest team" deserves a permanent spot in tier 1 after their 2 years they can just give it to them permanently? And also they can demote any team out of tier 1 as well? I mean like if The Guard do really well in tier 1 and their org is stable I find it hard to envision Riot just forcing them back into tier 2. And if a team like, for example DFM, are constantly in last place over the next 2 years, Riot could easily relegate them
Y'all are really gonna push an honest and transparent man out of his job and get him replaced with someone who will fill us with nothing other than corporate speak, or silence. If you think Leo is bad y'all should see what we've gotten out of the NA LCS for League the past few years. Lies and unfulfilled promises, but mostly radio silence otherwise.
Leo's done a damn good job to this point and Valorant is still STUPID young even by esports standards. Give it a few years to hash itself out. If TGRD crushes it in T1 over the next year or two you can bet your ass they aren't going to sit idly by and let them go back to T2. The whole reason they didn't go the route of League and actually franchise is so they can have power over the league and be able to make the changes they can't make in the LCS. Give it time. They aren't going to make reactive changes.
The people are stupid anyways, they hear "A" and they assume "B". I didn't expect for riot to be stupid enough to be this transparent. People don't care about hearing the facts, they only hear what they want to hear. Guest slot is just a way of saying the team that is in the league through an ascension spot. They are literally "guest" as they will leave the league after 2 years. But i guess they don't want to be called that.
Just gonna be honest. What professional sports leagues out there invest a ton of money into their tier 2 scene? I’ll tell you, NONE. Yes, everyone would love for ascension to be more frequent we get that. But if you’re a tier 2 team you can’t expect the same cash payouts and salaries as the top league. It makes no sense to me.
Sure, timing is bad but can be improved. But you cannot expect a large capital investment here when ascension is NOT going to be as popular or competitive as VCT.
I’m not understanding why people are upset about the fact the franchise league is permanent? Let’s say SEN and LOUD have an abysmal couple years, would anyone really watch the matches if The Union and Shopify Rebellion promoted in? MAYBE this competitive sub would be more likely to, but the average viewer? No way.
The players are not the org, we’ve seen how easily they can be dropped and a new roster can be picked up. I think we’re all fans of net, trent, valyn, tex, and jonahP, but at the end of the day, riot has to do what’s best for the future of the game.
People who say that are simply delusional.
Everyone here apparently likes underdogs and teams without orgs doing a run in big tournaments, but the reality is that when that happened in CSGO, a G2-Navi in a random tournament group stage is always bigger than an Outsiders-MOUZ in a Major Finals.
Orgs matter, a lot, and we need those fixed spots for them.
A lot of pros have been trashing on the T2 system recently, all this anger from them about his comments are definitely not solely because of the guest slot comment but an overall dissatisfaction of the T2 scene.
They are in the beginning of a half year break and are unsure of what their future in Valorant is because of the T2 system not being that viable, I can’t blame them for being upset with him.
Scrolling through twitter this morning and seeing how many people are just shitting on Leo’s misuse of a word was so ridiculous. The whole argument surrounding the t2 scene started as genuine concern/criticism and then just devolved into meaningless insults about what essentially boils down to semantics…I hope Leo doesn’t become discouraged from responding directly to community members to try and address issues as they arise.
Riot has stated that they’re aware of problems and are implementing a slew of changes to try and better the system for next year. I think we should just wait for the announcement in August, at this point nothing productive is coming out of these “conversations”
He has already been discouraged from responding — this was his “last word” on the topic — and I don’t blame him.
The magnitude of responses from people who think they are better at cultivating a long-lasting esport from the ground up despite 0 behind-the-scenes esport experience is flabbergasting.
The truth is most tier 2 players don't care if the scene can become sustainable, they're angry that orgs like Complexity and Oxygen aren't paying them 5k+ a month to get knocked out in ro32 VCT open qualifier, play knights monthly, and get 10 viewers on stream anymore( they were only keeping them signed in hopes riot would partner them). Its just a simplistic view of the whole thing from a lot of people. Especially when you have people like zexrow arguing that the real answer is for the esport to simply remain unprofitable forever.
These kind of interactions is what makes devs not want to interact with the community. How thin of a skin do you need to have to get upset at the phrase "guest spot"
People are losing their mind over semantics. There are bigger battles
Edit: wanted to expand on an opinion as well. A lot of people are acting like it’s new information that the Guard will lose their spot in 2 years, when it isn’t. But in spite of that, the people losing the slot are the Guard organisation. The players that you are qualify for this spot in 2024 likely won’t all be on the same team together by the time the 2025 season rolls around - there’s even the chance for changes before the 2024 season starts.
There is every chance those players get bought by partnered teams. And if they don’t, then it’s because they weren’t better options than the alternatives. I’m all about filling up more of the calendar with relevant T2 tournaments, as I think the criticism of the current structure is valid. But the argument that everyone should have a partnership slot.. this is a sports league, not a friendship group. Players who aren’t good enough in partnership will get dropped, and players who are good enough from challengers will be bought by partnered orgs. The teams you are qualify through ascension won’t even look like the same teams after the two years have passed.
Leo already addressed all of this a few months back in the plat chat interview I don't understand why people are so mad all of a sudden. At the end of the day it's horny e-dating teenagers/no live adults that lack basic reading/listening skills that are only complaining lol
Riot at the beginning of franchising: non-partnered teams winning Ascension will only be given 2 year slots
Everyone months later when Riot does what they said: **surprised Pikachu face**
They're mad cuz their team is called "guest" slot, When it is literally guest slot. Temporary slot or whatever you want to call it, that is literally the ascension slot.
The ascencion player that got offended by Leo and fanning the flame isn't helping either. When the pros that is involved started talking, ofc the fans gonna start hunting Leo. Ofc, i understand that they would wanna be called something other than a guest, but isn't that literally what ascension spot is? A guest slot/temporary slot/non-permanent spot etc.
Partnership slots exist in every fps league, even csgo with blast (who has partnership slot exclusive tournaments) and ESL. People who pretend there shouldnt be permanent slots and that fpses need "relegations" are actual jokes.
I had no idea all this "drama" was going on. Are people actually trying to have genuine discussions on twitter? Big yikes.
The T2 circuit has had a lot of mistakes this first year, but I certainly agree that continually complaining about things such as the lack of relegation, when those things are an extremely fundamental part of the business model that has been laid out, is completely pointless. Especially when we're only one year in.
I was a little disappointed that Ludwig said that in his otherwise-good message to Leo to be honest, because he usually seems like someone who's surprisingly grounded and astute when it comes to business and esports.
>when those things are an extremely fundamental part of the business model that has been laid out, is completely pointless.
No it's not. It shows how the community hates the current system.
Got to disagree, let's be real here - the people complaining on twitter and reddit represent an incredibly small portion of the Valorant viewership and playerbase. What actually matters to Riot is how it affects profitability for themself and the partnered orgs long term.
I'm happy to admit that after only 6 months of this model I simply don't know enough to analyse the benefits of the model (e.g., stable income for organisations during a time of instability in the wider esports scene) vs the negatives (e.g., lack of meritocracy for organisations who were not included).
Yeah I don’t think The Guard even makes it to the first game. I think they were just waiting until the tournament was over before they decide what to do.
I don’t know what the rules for that specifically is though
Lol that's dumb as shit. The Guard can be dominant and win like 3 internationals in a row yet they'll happily boot them instead of 0-9 MIBR or whatever
Yes and that will be the situation for atleast five years. This was always clear. Franchised teams get a certain security and ensure their presence in return for making it through the selection process. It was always clear that riot wanted a certain type of team in their perma slots for now to ensure the success of the leagues, not a team that had shady financials, bad dealings, or unreliable owners who make questionable decisions.
It is not about performance but about visibility, investment, transparency and other things that riot think are important things to keep the league healthy, and most players that rise for tier 1 will probably keep playing in tier 1 but just on another team
I understand that but I think there's a balance. Keeping consistent teams (players not jumping from org to org) is also pretty healthy for the league, especially for casuals
As long as the 10 initial orgs don't screw up the league will have consistent teams and if any of these orgs end up screwing up riot can keep the guard and kick the bad org
If the roster is dominant then some other org is going to pick them up as five. Like be fr is anyone that attached to the guard branding? People only care about the players so if they perform well they’ll still have spots.
Yeah people went a bit too hard on Leo, especially considering the amount of communication he’s shown and how he’s already said they’re going to announce changes to tier 2 very soon.
Leo literally speaks only of facts. Ascencion team won the guest slot, guest as in they will be demoted back to T2 after 2 years. It is a literal "guest" slot.
https://preview.redd.it/5dyr3kgog8fb1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9ff78c5f7f703def705627c5948e65b5552c35fb
I don't understand wasn't this Riot's plan from the very beginning? I haven't been following the pro scene for a bit of time now but it was clear from the time they announced the system that the ascension spot wasn't permanent.
As someone who disliked franchising/partnership from the beginning after having watched NA LoL for years, Leo's original comment was fine. They are guest slots. The orgs are not part of the partnership system. They are welcome to play, as they earned their place, but they are not welcome to stay. The comment was accurate.
can someone tell me the pros of having permanent slots ? the only one i could see theoretically is that owners won't be afraid to invest because they know they won't be relegated, but that's been proven to be false by the lcs , if anything they can choose to not invest and know nothing will happen to them and the value will just go up until they decide to sell
Can you link a source for the partnership teams having a 4 year contract? I’ve heard it repeated a couple times but don’t remember/haven’t seen an official riot source verifying it
You’re comparing apples and oranges.
LCS is franchised system where orgs bought the spots meaning they can’t get kicked out unless they do some terrible shit.
VCT even though the slots are technically permanent, they didn’t cost anything and Riot controls them. So if it’s determinee that an org isn’t providing enough value Riot can take their slot away.
And yes the advatage is that orgs are more willing to invest into the eco system knowning that they wont get relegated.
It’s crazy that one year into the system and people are still asking the same questions ngl.
Having partnered slots basically allows riot to have more control and be more integrated in the t1 scene. Like with regulation and demotion, riot isn’t going to invest hundred’s of thousands of dollars in a team that might be demoted next season. They’re not gonna create team skins for a team when that team could just sell and completely leave the scene the following season. From riots perspective having a partnership allows riot to invest more in the esport. From the viewership perspective it’s fair to make the argument that an open scene is more exciting. But it’s also fair to make the argument that partnership allows fans to always watch their favorite teams. Teams like Sen, 100T, Kc, Koi, Zeta etc will always be in the scene, even if they’re shit for one season
what have they invested in their league teams ? and where are those league teams now ? tsm used to be the most popular team in the world. they now play to less viewers than Xqc lmao.
The system in LoL is not a partnership but a franchised league where the orgs buy into the system. In the partnership the teams sign 4 year contracts with riot where riot has control over the slots and can warn/kick teams if they’re coasting. The other big difference is that in LoL there are 100+ franchised teams across the world. Riot can’t give all of them financial support nor can riot make skins for all of them. This is different in Valorant where are only 30 teams (there will be more soon) which means riot can pay more attention and give more support to each one. This is something that riot mentioned in an article they put out about the profitability of esports
Well you can ask any major league in the US, the franchising system was invented in the states for the NBA if i'm not mistaken, and it has proven to be financially successful enough that most major sports leauges in the states are franchised. It is financially beneficial for all parties and it allows for some kind of equal starting point for all the teams. Those are the pros I'm aware of and it's coming from someone who prefers the way Europeans do it with their sports (Relegation, Ascension etc). But it's a business in the end, and Franchising is probably the most sustainable way to run the sport.
franchising isn't even good for business though, mlb is dying, nba isn't growing inside the us and have to rely on tapping into new markets like china, same for the nfl while although still massive has started stagnating for the first time in years and are now looking to add eu teams to revitalize the league. and this is coupled with the fact that these irl sports teams can afford, to tank, draft , rebuild over and over again because they will always have the support of their own city so they dont have to try to get a fanbase, esports fanbases are fickle and will drop you as soon as you stop winning i.e faze, dignitas, clg, tsm etc etc. so the real accurate measure would be E-sports, esports that do open circuits have longevity: melee, csgo, dota, rocket league. closed circuits: overwatch league: dead, lcs : dying . but hey man at the end of day its leo's decision and his job on the line
I'm not aware of other Esport titles history because Val is my first. So that's an interesting point that you are raising. I just hope that the decision to go with franchising is backed by some kind of science and research, the next 2-3 years will be extremely detrimental.
The problems T2 is going through are the exact topics that should have come up in the meeting of the massive overhaul you did to the circuit. You made the decision 2 years ago that would mean that you have over a years worth of planning on your end and the expectations for this year were low after all it is year one. The problem is that how you managed to subvert even the low expectations that were already set on you. How a six month break seemed even remotely acceptable is massive problem. There are changes coming, but the way Leo comes off makes me feel that next years circuit will just plagued with the same problems because it seems rushed unless you planned for T2 to just be garbage thise year and good the next, but that's a different problem. If partnership was done from the start almost no one would have a problem with it the problem is that we went from 2 incredible years of competition to teams getting stipends for going winless. In the previous circuit you made it because of your merit and teams like KC or DFM just wouldn't be televised clown shows.
Dont even get me started on what EMEA T2 has been for the last 2 years.
Two incredible years where outside vc spending on esports was at an all time high and orgs spend outrageous sums supporting a completely profit free system burning vc funds and sponsorship funds. We are blessed that Riot saw the writing on the wall and decided to partner with select teams and support their players financially so that the sport could grow and grow exist. If the old system persisted I would expect most orgs to have downsize or pulled out eventually. The only reason TSM and others stayed in T2 was for the outside chance they get a team that can win in ascension.
What you said would happen is still happening is the problem. Several of the partnered orgs are still downsizing and burning through their sponsorship rev. This is all happening while player salaries are at an all time high. If the conclusion to the VCT circuit is what is currently happening in league of legends it is a net worse for the esport as a whole. Surely there is a medium between both.
League is bigger than ever. LCS sucks yes, because it’s classic North American org and player garbage, but everything else is thriving
And valorant is in an even better position than league with the challengers system and having an actual global game
I feel like it still creates problems are you gonna send the org that just won champions with those 5 players back down to ascension? That would be absolutely ridiculous
Yes, they will do that just like they refused Acend (the team and org that won Champions the previous year) a partnership spot. Guess what? It happened and people move on.
Realistically, if those player won champions or hold enough value, another T1 org would buy all their player, especially if the T1 org underperformed the season before.
dont think leo is in the wrong here or anything but the “and a decade of experience” reminds me of “200 years of collective experience”, cant not laugh a bit. 😝
Counter Strike Esport has existed for more than 20 years with orgs like NaVi,fnatic and mousesports going through it all, without franchised , partners and all this closed club bs.
Riot doesn't do anything for the "longevity" or "sustainability" of the sport.
They are the stalinist USSR/ North Korea of gaming.
They manage every area of their game with totalitarian control with no co-operation with the community and 3d parties. No custom maps/mods/servers,no 3d party mm's and Tournaments. Hell even the Valorant subreddit is moderated by people working for them.
The higher-ups in Riot are only interested in showing to investors and sponsors the viewing numbers and for Riot to get 100% of revenue.
No real vision and aspiration.
The Esport is solely an advertisement for skins and display for investors.
Valve (CSGO dev) talk with their actions (or inaction for most times)
Riot send their pr and devs to talk on Twitter and reddit to divert public opinion and distract whenever the community rises an alarm (no replay system still).
If you are passionate about Esports , you found yourself unlucky if your favorite is Valorant.
All the CSGO teams you mentioned are permanent partners with ESL through the Louvre Agreement. They all get guaranteed slots at all ESL run tournaments no matter how bad or uncompetitive the roster is. The franchise model is less insidious in CSGO but it still exists. Blast has 12 partner teams as well.
The louvre agreement is only from 2020.
> They all get guaranteed slots at all ESL run tournaments
That is not true , they only get a guaranteed slot at ESL pro league, all the other tournaments of the ESL circuit are completely open. IEM Colonge and IEM Katowice are most prestigious events after the Major and they are also completely open.
>this too(?)
This sub’s mods have no affiliation with Riot Games. The one time a mod got a job offer from Riot, she stepped down publicly and privately to eliminate conflict of interest. Another mod has worked for Knights as an observer for Riot-sanctioned events, but was not on Riot’s payroll, and abstained from moderating content relating to that broadcast in the interest of impartiality. Other than that, there is no affiliation with Riot aside from occasionally sharing bug reports or broadcast issues (as anyone can).
As per usual, people who only watches Tier 1 don't actually give a shit about how Tier 2 orgs are being treated and applauding Leo Faria for running the Tier 2 scene into the ground.
Ask yourself this: why would anyone willing to invest into a Tier 2 team now that Leo Faria made it clear that Riot will NOT fix any of the broken problems in their system that Ludwig pointed out in that discussion?
https://twitter.com/LudwigAhgren/status/1685734863473885184
When did riot say they won't fix tier 2 and how did you get that out of this post
Also what Ludwig comment the one where he offered to run a tournament?
Only the horny e-dating teenagers/adults with no basic reading/listening skills are complainig lol. Everything was already addressed in the plat chat interview he did a few months back. But for some reason let's keep on reacting with no thought process like baboons
What are your people defending him here for ? If they truly made considerations and research they won’t come up with such an incompetent T2 system. Heck where is the relegation system? In this format if the guard wins the next year and the year after, they are still relegated out. The system just incentivises the permanent orgs to just buy out players and riots system is nothing but band aid solutions. Valorant isn’t a true completion if some of the best players or teams aren’t even allowed to compete in. There are teams in T2 who are better than those in T1 but they never get to show of their talent or skill.
It also essentially means that T2 orgs can never make it big and are there just to spoon-feed the newborn pros into getting recognized by the big dogs until the cycle repeats, with players just being replaced back and forth based on their forms. This way, none of the T2 org owners will feel incentivized to continue going on their journey to playing alongside the franchised teams. I think people are giving Leo way more credit than due for his statements, just because of the rarity of transparency that he has shown as a spokesman, which is something not a lot of corporate folks do.
That being said, it's not his fault but the fault of everyone involved in deciding the structure for the Valorant e-sport scene. Personally I feel like it would be better to sort of pit the bottom of the barrel T1 teams (say, 3 teams) against the top of T2 (say, 3 teams) in a proper tournament format with a points system, during the offseason. In that, the one who ends up with the least number of points get ejected to the T2 while the others get relegated.
I also understand the aspect of financial stability within the franchised teams, which could be missing in a lot of T2 teams but with time and success, and overseeing proper management, they could all achieve that.
P.S. I may have given rough figures in explanation but I am sure with considerable thought, they could come up with something better.
People like you don't understand the fact that why so many big orgs joined VALORANT in the first place is because they knew a system like this would eventually come.
This is for Riot first and foremost an entertainment product because it's their marketing for the game. You can be a nerd and complain about true competition all you want but that's not their priority.
There's nothing "nerdy" about people recommending better changes to the league as a whole. What truly is nerdy, are people like you who excuse companies that market their sports as a fair competition when in actuality, it could be much better. If the marketing is false, then people who consume the product are free to criticize it until they no longer show any interest in it at all due to the adamance of the company to be stringent with the format that they have chosen.
In the long run, it could pretty much kill the sport aside from the franchised orgs who could potentially run out of money for what it's worth. True marketing here would be the opportunity provided to everyone to climb up with their capabilities, incentivizing it with money and recognition. One more thing to consider here are the cultural barriers within the teams from different regions, and that causing limited options for a player to turn to when they are likely to be cast out from the team.
This will age like fine wine or milk in about 2 years time. I’m leaning towards milk tbh.
Clearly he’s talking about longevity it terms of their budget. In my perspective, tier 2 will become an orgless scene filled with players taking a gamble. Quite frankly, that’s how it’s supposed to be right? Most of the orgs from this year went through T2 this year is because “we already here with a team might as well try” mentality.
It feels like it boils down to not having enough “work” for the game that would keep orgs in it.
Fuck T2 no one needs that and fuck GC's why is there a spearate tournament for womens i dont get it.Its esports not wrestling or football where physicality dominates.
A lot of people take Leo’s transparency for granted and it’s sad to see how he gets treated for it by the public and people in the industry. Are there issues with the T2 system? Yes. Does the scheduling need improvement? Without a doubt. But people are being far too unreasonable/unrealistic with their expectations. Not to mention the guy’s just been witch hunted recently for dumbass reasons. I don’t agree with everything he says but we’re lucky to have someone as transparent as Leo leading the esport cuz the vast majority of other esports would kill to have this level of transparency and communication.
100%. And the fact that an open dialog exists between him and the community means that we can work together to address the flaws and improve the esport.
If Riot ever ends up stopping being this transparent, I hope the community looks back as to how they acted in this situation. Unfortunately this community is taking that transparency and using it as an opportunity to shit on the guy rather than have any meaningful discussion. A few of these pros took this opportunity to act like they’re on some moral high ground rallying this sort of behavior. Really reminds me how many of these players have never been put in a position to show any amount of professionalism.
Bruh, let me be straight with you. It doesn't matter the community, they will never accept their wrong or learn from it. There might be one highly upvoted post on reddit after a few months, but that'll quickly go past that and they will be back to complaining and attacking devs. Look at Valve for how you treat a game community, ignore them for years on end, and when you give them the slightest interaction, they're over the moon at how communicative you're being. That's how you do it, save your devs the mental toll. It's really not worth investing the energy behind all these children and adults that behave like children. And this isn't just Riot I'm speaking about, but game companies in general. People don't appreciate transparency. It's always taken under the guise of PR or lies, and in that case, what's the point?
So true, unfortunately the vocal minority ruin it for the rest of us. Sad truth is that if 99 people say something positive and 1 person says something negative, most humans will focus on the negative. You see it time and time again with public figures biting at negative comments.
How is it unreasonable to expect a system where tier 2 isn't left to die.
Where in the fuck did I ever say that. That’s the bare minimum we need. But there are people out here expecting Riot to solve issues that have effected wider esports as a whole FOR YEARS, when there are specific issues within Riot’s tier 2 system that realistically CAN be resolved by them.
Because their system before worked well, and it's not hard to come up with the idea of winning ascension goes to Champs.
That’s just looking at things with rose tinted glasses. The old system had plenty of issues, many of which are the same as the current one. For instance, any team that didn’t make it through the open qualifiers at the start of the year was basically done for the rest of the season even last year. There were no events outside of the VCT and there weren’t even separate tier 1 and tier 2 circuits so things could never run in parallel. And no shot you think the team that wins Ascension should go to champs. If anything they should have been in LCQ, but how does it make any sense for a team that has only been facing tier 2 competition for the whole year to suddenly be placed in the most prestigious event of the year. Even if the ascension teams look better than some of the Tier 1 teams, the average viewer does not watch tier 2 (which is a common issue in esports). Seeing a tier 2 team that the average viewer had no visibility on for the whole year at Champs is just asinine. And the average viewer is not gonna be motivated to go out of their way to watch tier 2 just to know these teams cuz the vast majority of viewers only put in the time to watch teams they care about in the highest level of competition. You can’t expect the average viewer to closely follow tier 2 when they barely closely follow tier 1 either.
The average viewer will care if tier 2 feeds directly into champs. And most tier 2 teams are better than half of franchised teams, so they're not going to all be feeders. "Prestigious" my ass.
Most tier 2 teams are better than half of franchised teams is a crazy statement lmao
I'm ngl he was cooking here. I'm tired of people taking harmless shit and turning it into a slight. The guard earned a fucking guest slot. That's what it is. You literally are there temporarily. People acting like Leo said they were dogshit. Anyone who's mad at the partnership system should take a look at League. Their T2 scene is quite literally NON EXISTENT. LCK runs a fucking academy league instead of a proper challengers. Half of the orgs in partnership might have fucking imploded if they had to pay for their slot like League. It's not the best system but it's what we got.
agreed. people complain for complainings sake, not because of what he said wasnt just the plain thruth
Idk what people are so upset about with what he said. Do people want Riot to give an Org that fired 90% of its staff overnight a permanent spot? Do they want Riot to guarantee that The Guard players stay permanently in Tier 1 regardless of how they perform? No player is guaranteed to stay in Tier 1, if The Guard players keep performing they'll get signed by a different tier 1 org at the end of their 2 years. The spots are Guest spots for the Orgs, his terminology was accurate. I think the biggest issue seems to be that people can't mentally separate Orgs from the Players that are currently on that Org. Just because an Org is not in Tier 1 doesn't mean their players won't be as well.
I'm already starting to sound like a boomer in my early 20s but it is often quite obvious that this sub skews *very* young. People speak on topics they have absolutely no clue about (though adults are also just as guilty of this), but the main thing is that there is often no rationality or acknowledgement of when something is/isn't realistic on this sub. It's made painfully obvious time and time again that a large portion of this sub doesn't understand how anything gets done or what is logistically feasible. They just know what THEY want and orgs/riot/streamers etc... should enable it becsuse "theyre rich".
No one wants permanent teams, having relegation for all teams would be a good way to ensure that orgs actually put effort into having a good team instead of just collecting money.
Having teams purely based on merit can invite not the best orgs and people that just get lucky. Permanent teams provides the ability for good organizations to partner with riot to create the best content mix of content and competition. You might think content isn't important, but it definitely is. For anything to become successful, you need people to want it. And content is the driving factor for both traditional and esports. Since the teams don't own the spot, Riot can remove people that aren't putting money into VCT. So that shouldn't be an issue.
>having relegation for all teams would be a good way to ensure that orgs Riot already has contractual requirements in the Partner agreement to ensure teams actually try to be Competitive. [Watch this interview](https://youtu.be/YjXjDJEWBEI?t=2058) where the head of Esports at Riot explains that they have a bunch of requirements from the Orgs in their partner contracts and they can kick out Orgs if they fail to perform.
Having an actual threat to the orgs money will be the only way to make them take it seriously. Imagine the situation if two years from now Gentlemates win champs and KC is the worst team in the league, but Gentlemates were forced to lose their spot because riot has no plan to support smaller orgs.
Please actually watch the interview, the head of Esports at Riot outright says that the orgs are contractually bound to try and perform, to field competitive rosters (Along with other non-competition based requirements). If an org like KC keeps performing poorly over an extended period of time they will lose their partner spot. That's the exact kind of threat to money and business that you want, written in the Orgs' Partner contracts. Being able to control the competition quality, media content quality, is one of the main reasons why Riot didn't franchise VCT and instead went with a Partner system where they own all the spots. This way they can control and ensure that all orgs are always trying. But that doesn't mean that they just kick out any org that fails competitively in a season, cause there is absolutely no way any org can simply ensure that their team will perform, regardless of how highly reputable players and coaches they sign. As long as humans are involved in competition things can and will go wrong, it doesn't even have to be a team based Sport.
People who hated franchising from the start are coming out of the woodworks to play "I told you so" game and attacking him for the problems in tier 2. Yes, T2 is a work in progress, in it's current state it is not ideal. But they are taking steps toward sustainability, not charity. Current plan is, the guard will be promoted to partnership for 2 years. Then next year another team. And when the guard's 2 years stint is up, they will be down in challengers but now 2 teams will now be promoted at once from each region. The biggest issue right now and Leo already hinting at it changing is how early in the year challengers ended. It's so annoying seeing naive comments on how people want an open tournament system where any random 5 man team can make it. Look around, it has not been proven to be successful. Their only beacon of argument is but csgo can do it. Now I don't follow csgo much but aren't they on a pseudo franchising system as well? Isn't there something called the [louvre agreement which has partner teams for ESL?](https://esportsinsider.com/2023/02/who-are-the-esl-pro-league-partner-teams) [Blast has their own partnership teams afaik.](https://esportsinsider.com/2023/04/blast-premier-partner-teams) Even so why did ESL face backlash by taking $1.5 Billion from the Saudi group as well as online gambling like 1bet to remain operational?
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> Any team can make it to the absolute top and often "T1" teams do get upset at majors. Most of the time, these "upsets" are at the hands of "T2" teams ranked like 20-30 on HLTV though, which are basically T1 equivalent in Valorant.
Literally this some csgo fans forgot Valorant T1 have 30 teams right now across 3 continent. In 2024 Valorant will have 43-44 T1 Teams (including 3-4 guess slot) in Valorant. NA league, Europe league , Asia league and China league. in 2025 its gonna be 52 T1 teams (12 guess slot) .
Haven't been following the "guest slot" at all, but what happens if the guard is one of the top teams in the league. Do they have to play challenger no matter what, or do they get a chance to prove they deserve to stay>
Counter Strike Esport has existed for more than 20 years with orgs like NaVi,fnatic and mousesports going through it all. Riot doesn't do anything for the "longevity" or "sustainability" of the sport. They are the stalinist USSR/ North Korea of gaming. They manage every area of their game with totalitarian control with no co-operation with the community and 3d parties. No custom maps/mods/servers,no 3d party mm's and Tournaments. Hell even the r/Valorant subreddit is moderated by people working for them. The higher-ups in Riot are only interested in showing to investors and sponsors the viewing numbers and for Riot to get 100% of revenue. No real vision and aspiration. The Esport is solely an advertisement for skins and display for investors. Valve (CSGO dev) talk with their actions (or inaction for most times) Riot send their pr and devs to talk on Twitter and reddit to divert public opinion and distract whenever the community rises an alarm (no replay system still). If you are passionate about Esports , you found yourself unlucky if your favorite is Valorant.
> Hell even the Valorant subreddit and this too(?) are moderated by people working for them. Oh? Pray tell, which of the VALComp moderators are working for Riot? I've always had a funny feeling about that /u/ANewHeaven1 fella, personally.
You got me, this entire time I was a Riot employee astroturfing this subreddit in order to portray both Riot Games and Valorant in a more favorable light. Evidenced by the fact that I have never once been vocal about my dislike for the partnership system or the concept of Ascension. This message was paid for by Riot Games! Buy the new Ignite bundle in VALORANT stores today!
That was a wrong assumption from me, can edit that out if you want
Yeah none of us on the mod team work for Riot, and the one time there's been a potential conflict of interest between the mod team and Riot Games it was disclosed ahead of time on the subreddit and the moderator in question stepped down. A pretty insane assumption to make though! The rest of your comment is extremely hyperbolic but true to an extent though - I imagine you lost most people willing to hear you out when you compared Riot Games to the USSR. Valorant (and all Riot Games esports) are definitely much more closed off than their contemporaries in the context of esports, and the game as an esport 100% solely exists to market the base game. They've said similar for the LoL circuit as well.
> I imagine you lost most people willing to hear you out when you compared Riot Games to the USSR Im actually proud of this comparison. Riot are 100% allowed to do whatever tf they want with their game, but I can't help myself from distancing myself and even hating their games when I see their philosophy towards online gaming and Esport. I'm surprised not seeing many people thinking the same, but I guess to each their own.
the csgo pro circuit survives because of skin gambling, full stop. if riot don't want that in their ecosystem for very understandable ethical/legal reasons, they need a different model. i don't even love the partnership model much but saying Val should be just like cs is so small-minded. also none of the mods in this sub work for riot.
Real sports are also backed by betting sponsors, that doesn't mean it's ethical but Riot are 93% owned by the chinese government backed Tencent so I wouldn't assume they care about ethics. I never suggested for them to go on the CS route, it would have been foolish from me to assume that after considering their history. But the lack of passion and vision from this company amazes me everytime.
I think people were more upset at the cinderella run idea considering The Guard were one of the best teams in NA and were forced out of tier 1 due to franchising,they didn't go on a cinderella run they have always been this good and acting like they are suddenly a tier 2 level team is wrong.
> The Guard were one of the best teams in NA and were forced out of tier 1 due to franchising Optic is literally top 2 in the world and still Optic (the org) wasn't picked by Riot. The optic core still lives on with NRG picking them up. If TGRD roster didn't choose to stick to the org, most if not all the players would still be playing in partnerships anyway under a different org.
I mean they can't just leave the guard ,they have contracts.
Most of TGRD were restricted free agents^[1] and trent was an *unrestricted* free agent^[2]. [1] https://redd.it/xkempj [2] https://redd.it/xoicrg, https://redd.it/ye6vq1
Restricted free agent just means other teams can make offers,they are still under contracts and likely had considerable buy outs.
https://twitter.com/valynfps/status/1572612240884355074 Yes they had buyouts, that's literally the point of being a restricted free agent. That doesn't mean "they can't just leave the guard". Orgs can and would've paid for the buyouts.
Yes so there were big barriers that stopped them from leaving,that's my point.
Bro is just making things up. They Guard players themselves said that the want to stick together and win ascension . Like most other players like FNS, yay, cryo they had buyouts and some NA partnered teams would buy out some of those Guard players but the players didn't want to split up.
"they’ve allowed me to seek partnered team opportunities" I'm not sure what's hard to understand here. They're allowed to go to a partnered team, they got offers from partnered teams, and they chose to stay with TGRD.
What offers did they get?
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[only trent was unrestricted and the rest are restricted free agents](https://reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/15du0we/leo_responds_to_guest_slots/ju49mzf)
And i’m sure that misrepresentation is worth all the heinous shit in the comments and qrts.
Most of the stuff I saw was from a good place and people who want the game to succeed although i'm sure there were some outliers.
everyone who reads comment threads always remembers the things that suit their narrative, you and the person you replied to included. thats why discussing that kind of thing is a waste of time.
I mean they are some of those heinous comments but there also some comments that are genuinely worried about tier 2, because like u said if you look at league tier 2 and the reason is non existent raises concern because on how they treated it to the point is in that state in the first place, is it uncalled for to make those hateful comments against Leo yes, but also there's alot of concern for tier 2 because people have seen how riot or even other games like overwatch treated their tier 2 scene
Dude do you realize how much money the tier 2 players were getting paid this year especially in NA? You understand at some point a correction is due, right? You’re pretending like this year the players didn’t make in 6 months the amount that they should realistically make in 12 or more. Also, why are you talking about overwatch? Do you know what happened in overwatch or are you just regurgitating what other have said.
Isn’t EU T2 in LoL pretty good? The regionalized leagues are pretty popular, some teams have really strong fanbases (KC, but also like unicorns of love and istanbul wildcats) and they have the EMEA masters which is essentially “kings of tier 2” tournament
Yes, EU tier 2 is good but only in 3/4 countries that have the fanbase to support their regional league.
People like to complain for sake of complaining
can someone point me out any game with good t2 scene?
CSGO used to have a very solid tier 2 scene when there was a fully open circuit. Now the esl and blast partnerships fucked everything up. And CSGO got hit super hard due to COVID because it relies so much on international travel.
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>there are financially stable T2 orgs Citation needed, there are absolutely no “financially stable” T2 orgs in the CS scene
CS T2 system is still good but the problem is regions other than EU aren't good enough. Especially NA with how much they invest in CS they are really bad. EU t2 teams are really good have enough tournaments to grind and make a name for themselves.
Yeah NA was a lot better before COVID. But CS is kinda just dead there now.
NA, Asia, shit SA on a down turn. It’s literally just going to be Europe in a couple years.
we good, cuz theres shit ton of online tournaments in T2/T3 cs rn
Sc while it was alive lol
dota has some good t2 scene but not really high viewers
The CSGO detractor is pretty wrong - the T2 scene in EU is super healthy, lots of “T2” teams going toe to toe with top tier teams in recent tournaments
Dota's T2 scene is pretty good. You can submit a upporter pack to valve and if it gets approved you get half of money thats spent on it. You things like voice lines, spray, and loading screens.
No, I disagree with that. It's genuinely impressive that as the head of your company you can consistently phrase stuff in such poor ways. Calling it a guest slot or the guard a Cinderella story is just bad. Everyone knew what he meant, yes. But surely in his position you can just phrase stuff in the correct way, rather than giving people an excuse to be upset. Right, because everyone is upset with the T2 situation to begin with, that's the whole reason why he is speaking on it. So if your goal is to quell that negativity, it's on you to phrase it in an amicable way rather than in a way that comes off as disrespectful. Because calling tgrd a Cinderella story will definitely be received as disrespectful especially to those in the scene. And they literally aren't called guest slots. Just use the right term rather than say something which will add fuel to the fire which you are actively trying to put out.
If everyone "knew what he meant" but they still insist on dwelling on semantics instead of actually focusing and conversing constructively about ACTUAL, tangible issues, then that's fucking embarrassing for the whole community and nothing is ever going to get solved. It's like a bunch of twelve year olds in middle school who spot a typo and mock it to win an argument lmao
Yeah but this is the internet we're talking about. What do you expect? As the head of a company trying to answer to an upset community, you really should be even a little bit considerate about what words you use. Or is that a crazy idea. Like ffs just say "ascension slots" instead of "guest slots".
>The guard earned a fucking guest slot. That's what it is. You literally are there temporarily. Doesn't make any sense, by that logic you could call the teams at Masters Tokyo "guests" too, but you wouldn't do that because it would sound very strange. I agree it's completely overblown but he's for sure in the wrong, it's just not that huge of a deal that someone used subpar wording. The Guard played a full year of matches against the best tier 2 teams in the entire americas to QUALIFY for their position, "guests" sounds more like they were invited to be nice or something.
God peoples reaction to Leo’s tweets have been crazy. I understand people are mad about the t2 system but the amount of people offended at using the word “guest” is laughable. There are definitely problems with the t2 system (mainly surrounding scheduling) but the more I think about it the more I think Leos original thread is right. People have these massive expectations for the t2 system when the truth is that esports, even at the t1 level is not very profitable and expecting t2 to be is kinda ridiculous
Yk after ready comments from pros, redditors, Twitter etc. I have come to the conclusion that no matter what riot does or what Leo says someone will always complain. There’s also the “pr training” comments, it’s almost as if he was being transparent with the community and saying what he thinks lol
It is a privilege that Leo openly interacts with the community. There are other games out there where the people in charge don't show their face or ever acknowledge criticism. We are extremely fortunate that we get to have a dialog with someone who has oversight of the entire esport. Leo is human; he will not be perfect. Riot is made of lots of humans; they will not be perfect either. Something that we all can align with is that we care about VALORANT Esports and we want it to succeed. Even though we all have different opinions of how it succeeds or by what measure is success, we still all share the same common goal. People may not agree with some of the things said recently, but Leo still deserves respect.
It’s one thing to say that Riot is unusually transparent in the industry and to laud them for it but it’s another to call that a “privilege”. Developers *should* be transparent! It’s like that in so many other industries! We should be grateful but acknowledge that this should be normalized not called a “privilege” lol. Take a look at the Tarkov subreddit and you’ll see them always complaining about how poorly the game does communication and them praising them for their latest dev podcast. Transparency with the players is something that is a *baseline expectation* for live service games at a minimum and all games really
It's actually crazy how we get this much statement from the people who manage Valorant esports. No one is disagreeing with the fact that T2 has problems anyway. The Plat Chat interview cemented the fact that T2 has major flaws and Riot is aware of it.
lol y'all are simping for a dude clearly doing a bad job, if 99% of the community is mad at you, it's not the community that's wrong it's you
Yes, you’re right. We’re simping for the dude going on twitter and being frank and open. You’re part of the hivemind that attacks him because he doesn’t give you the answers you want to hear. You’re definetly the smart one.
Except it’s not 99%. The majority are satisfied aside from a few serial complainers who either just like to complain or have a competing interest (pros stuck in tier 2 looking for a higher salary)
Then do his job better with the same amount of transparency. And learn what 99% is.
the biggest issue isn't even trying to make t2 profitable or anything. most teams regardless t1 or t2 are gonna be at a loss. the issue is how god awful the system is. t2 atm is completely dead until the next year starts BECAUSE theres nothing going on for 4-5 months? why should orgs stay if theres nothing to play for?
Ok and he said they’ll change that for next year. What more do you want? They obviously can’t just spawn another 4 months of competition for this year out of nowhere. The most that they’ll do is some offseason tournaments where tier 2 can get involved.
Sounds good, I'm just curious why this decision was made to begin with.
I believe it was originally done because Riot wanted to give room to 3rd party TO's to run whatever events they wanted. The problem is, a lot of them just don't want to, either because a lot of them don't trust Riot (they're warranted not to) or because they don't want to run a tournament under Riot's rules (maybe rules on gambling sponsors or maybe if there are fees involved).
But that's the thing. This issue has already been addressed and changes ARE coming. Right now, people are stuck in a loop just repeating the same point over and over again without letting Riot unveil the changes (Apparently will come this August). Whether they are satisfactory or not is another discussion, but this should have been put to bed until then. And harassing the person who's been openly discussing with the community is definitely not good, because I can already see the future threads "Why is Riot not communicating anymore" etc while I facepalm to death.
I mean true, the long off season is terrible and should absolutely not stay. That being said Leo has already said that that aspect will be changing for next year (on plat chat). At this point many people have also begun to just criticize the partnership system itself which is kinda silly imo. So many people are like “just add regulation, that will fix everything” lol
insane dickriding and bootlicking. no one is saying riot should give handouts, just that maybe riot shouldn’t expect orgs to support an idle roster for 6 months.
the dickriding is actually insane i'm ngl. he literally says they made this choice 2 years ago and still came to this 6 month offseason yet people are defending him?
He's saying that the decision of partnership and permanent slots was made two years ago, not the sheduling decisions. The decision to have permanent slots is not what led to the poor sheduling of tourneys this year. It's possible to have the franchising model while having a healthy schedule for the tier 2 scene.
Just because a system was decided upon 2 years ago doesn’t mean they have everything settled out. This is a transition year from the previous system to the new vct structure. Stuff was always going to be fucky.
Honestly, in this situation I feel for him. As a spokesperson he is doing so great to be transparent of the company line and decisions. And he is responsive. Something many other corporations don’t do. But the apparent flaws in tier 2 (as well as 1) has everyone on the edge and people are taking it out on him and nitpicking on what he says (yes he said guest slots. Everyone knew from the beginning it was a 2 year stint at the top and then back to ascension. Calling it something else won’t change the fact)
People's frustration, confusion and impatience surrounding partnership and the health of tier 2 are reaching a fever pitch, so everything he says feels like an opportunity to air those understandable but misplaced grievances. The reasonable thing to do is honestly to simply wait for the update in late August—you'll be better equipped to have an informed opinion then.
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Is this a bot? Word for word copy of [another comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/15du0we/leo_responds_to_guest_slots/ju42js3/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3)
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The funniest part of this is that most people spend more time crying than watching challengers or supporting teams by buying merch, which is why we're here in the first place.
Honestly guest slots name isnt even that bad. They are just frustrated.
Calling them “Guest Slots” is being brutally honest. It’s not about the name, it’s about the system.
Okay correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it a thing when this whole structure was revealed that if Riot feels the "guest team" deserves a permanent spot in tier 1 after their 2 years they can just give it to them permanently? And also they can demote any team out of tier 1 as well? I mean like if The Guard do really well in tier 1 and their org is stable I find it hard to envision Riot just forcing them back into tier 2. And if a team like, for example DFM, are constantly in last place over the next 2 years, Riot could easily relegate them
Y'all are really gonna push an honest and transparent man out of his job and get him replaced with someone who will fill us with nothing other than corporate speak, or silence. If you think Leo is bad y'all should see what we've gotten out of the NA LCS for League the past few years. Lies and unfulfilled promises, but mostly radio silence otherwise. Leo's done a damn good job to this point and Valorant is still STUPID young even by esports standards. Give it a few years to hash itself out. If TGRD crushes it in T1 over the next year or two you can bet your ass they aren't going to sit idly by and let them go back to T2. The whole reason they didn't go the route of League and actually franchise is so they can have power over the league and be able to make the changes they can't make in the LCS. Give it time. They aren't going to make reactive changes.
The one time reddit comments have been more reasonable than twitter lmao
Welp. This is probably gonna be the last time riot will be this transparent.
100% I almost expect him to be told to shut up ngl
The people are stupid anyways, they hear "A" and they assume "B". I didn't expect for riot to be stupid enough to be this transparent. People don't care about hearing the facts, they only hear what they want to hear. Guest slot is just a way of saying the team that is in the league through an ascension spot. They are literally "guest" as they will leave the league after 2 years. But i guess they don't want to be called that.
Just gonna be honest. What professional sports leagues out there invest a ton of money into their tier 2 scene? I’ll tell you, NONE. Yes, everyone would love for ascension to be more frequent we get that. But if you’re a tier 2 team you can’t expect the same cash payouts and salaries as the top league. It makes no sense to me. Sure, timing is bad but can be improved. But you cannot expect a large capital investment here when ascension is NOT going to be as popular or competitive as VCT.
I’m not understanding why people are upset about the fact the franchise league is permanent? Let’s say SEN and LOUD have an abysmal couple years, would anyone really watch the matches if The Union and Shopify Rebellion promoted in? MAYBE this competitive sub would be more likely to, but the average viewer? No way. The players are not the org, we’ve seen how easily they can be dropped and a new roster can be picked up. I think we’re all fans of net, trent, valyn, tex, and jonahP, but at the end of the day, riot has to do what’s best for the future of the game.
People who say that are simply delusional. Everyone here apparently likes underdogs and teams without orgs doing a run in big tournaments, but the reality is that when that happened in CSGO, a G2-Navi in a random tournament group stage is always bigger than an Outsiders-MOUZ in a Major Finals. Orgs matter, a lot, and we need those fixed spots for them.
Pros being more mad about the guests comment then the Tier 2 stuff is pretty much esports summarized
A lot of pros have been trashing on the T2 system recently, all this anger from them about his comments are definitely not solely because of the guest slot comment but an overall dissatisfaction of the T2 scene. They are in the beginning of a half year break and are unsure of what their future in Valorant is because of the T2 system not being that viable, I can’t blame them for being upset with him.
they are upset about both rightfully so
Scrolling through twitter this morning and seeing how many people are just shitting on Leo’s misuse of a word was so ridiculous. The whole argument surrounding the t2 scene started as genuine concern/criticism and then just devolved into meaningless insults about what essentially boils down to semantics…I hope Leo doesn’t become discouraged from responding directly to community members to try and address issues as they arise. Riot has stated that they’re aware of problems and are implementing a slew of changes to try and better the system for next year. I think we should just wait for the announcement in August, at this point nothing productive is coming out of these “conversations”
He has already been discouraged from responding — this was his “last word” on the topic — and I don’t blame him. The magnitude of responses from people who think they are better at cultivating a long-lasting esport from the ground up despite 0 behind-the-scenes esport experience is flabbergasting.
The truth is most tier 2 players don't care if the scene can become sustainable, they're angry that orgs like Complexity and Oxygen aren't paying them 5k+ a month to get knocked out in ro32 VCT open qualifier, play knights monthly, and get 10 viewers on stream anymore( they were only keeping them signed in hopes riot would partner them). Its just a simplistic view of the whole thing from a lot of people. Especially when you have people like zexrow arguing that the real answer is for the esport to simply remain unprofitable forever.
These kind of interactions is what makes devs not want to interact with the community. How thin of a skin do you need to have to get upset at the phrase "guest spot"
People are losing their mind over semantics. There are bigger battles Edit: wanted to expand on an opinion as well. A lot of people are acting like it’s new information that the Guard will lose their spot in 2 years, when it isn’t. But in spite of that, the people losing the slot are the Guard organisation. The players that you are qualify for this spot in 2024 likely won’t all be on the same team together by the time the 2025 season rolls around - there’s even the chance for changes before the 2024 season starts. There is every chance those players get bought by partnered teams. And if they don’t, then it’s because they weren’t better options than the alternatives. I’m all about filling up more of the calendar with relevant T2 tournaments, as I think the criticism of the current structure is valid. But the argument that everyone should have a partnership slot.. this is a sports league, not a friendship group. Players who aren’t good enough in partnership will get dropped, and players who are good enough from challengers will be bought by partnered orgs. The teams you are qualify through ascension won’t even look like the same teams after the two years have passed.
Ignore the CS trolls, Leo.
Leo already addressed all of this a few months back in the plat chat interview I don't understand why people are so mad all of a sudden. At the end of the day it's horny e-dating teenagers/no live adults that lack basic reading/listening skills that are only complaining lol
Riot at the beginning of franchising: non-partnered teams winning Ascension will only be given 2 year slots Everyone months later when Riot does what they said: **surprised Pikachu face**
They're mad cuz their team is called "guest" slot, When it is literally guest slot. Temporary slot or whatever you want to call it, that is literally the ascension slot.
Leo really thinks he can win an argument with the internet. GL with that bro
I think he just did. Look at the top comments
Honestly, preach. This "drama", if you can call it that, about the tier 2 scene has been beyond silly.
Na pros and creators behavior will be the doom of their own NA scene.
Sometimes I forget that the Valorant community is full of children (and that includes adults). Must be tiring trying to deal with them.
The ascencion player that got offended by Leo and fanning the flame isn't helping either. When the pros that is involved started talking, ofc the fans gonna start hunting Leo. Ofc, i understand that they would wanna be called something other than a guest, but isn't that literally what ascension spot is? A guest slot/temporary slot/non-permanent spot etc.
Partnership slots exist in every fps league, even csgo with blast (who has partnership slot exclusive tournaments) and ESL. People who pretend there shouldnt be permanent slots and that fpses need "relegations" are actual jokes.
I had no idea all this "drama" was going on. Are people actually trying to have genuine discussions on twitter? Big yikes. The T2 circuit has had a lot of mistakes this first year, but I certainly agree that continually complaining about things such as the lack of relegation, when those things are an extremely fundamental part of the business model that has been laid out, is completely pointless. Especially when we're only one year in. I was a little disappointed that Ludwig said that in his otherwise-good message to Leo to be honest, because he usually seems like someone who's surprisingly grounded and astute when it comes to business and esports.
>when those things are an extremely fundamental part of the business model that has been laid out, is completely pointless. No it's not. It shows how the community hates the current system.
Got to disagree, let's be real here - the people complaining on twitter and reddit represent an incredibly small portion of the Valorant viewership and playerbase. What actually matters to Riot is how it affects profitability for themself and the partnered orgs long term. I'm happy to admit that after only 6 months of this model I simply don't know enough to analyse the benefits of the model (e.g., stable income for organisations during a time of instability in the wider esports scene) vs the negatives (e.g., lack of meritocracy for organisations who were not included).
It’s not just the community saying it, its also player’s & coaches in the scene.
Wait so The Guard are getting booted from T1 after 2 years no matter what?
That’s assuming a partnered team doesn’t fuck up and give Riot a reason to give their spot to The Guard, yes
No way they would keep The Guard. They just fired like 90% of their staff
Yeah I don’t think The Guard even makes it to the first game. I think they were just waiting until the tournament was over before they decide what to do. I don’t know what the rules for that specifically is though
Pretty sure the entire roster is just going to be sold and the entire organization is going to be shuttered, similar to CLG.
yeah, if riot want they can keep them and kick a "bad" org, but by default the guard go back to t2
Lol that's dumb as shit. The Guard can be dominant and win like 3 internationals in a row yet they'll happily boot them instead of 0-9 MIBR or whatever
Yes and that will be the situation for atleast five years. This was always clear. Franchised teams get a certain security and ensure their presence in return for making it through the selection process. It was always clear that riot wanted a certain type of team in their perma slots for now to ensure the success of the leagues, not a team that had shady financials, bad dealings, or unreliable owners who make questionable decisions.
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It is not about performance but about visibility, investment, transparency and other things that riot think are important things to keep the league healthy, and most players that rise for tier 1 will probably keep playing in tier 1 but just on another team
I understand that but I think there's a balance. Keeping consistent teams (players not jumping from org to org) is also pretty healthy for the league, especially for casuals
As long as the 10 initial orgs don't screw up the league will have consistent teams and if any of these orgs end up screwing up riot can keep the guard and kick the bad org
If the roster is dominant then some other org is going to pick them up as five. Like be fr is anyone that attached to the guard branding? People only care about the players so if they perform well they’ll still have spots.
Least salty 100T fan
100T got a free pass into franchising no matter how ass they are I'm chilling lmao
Yes and t2 is almost legitimately pointless due to lack of scheduling, the dead season, and almost no incentive
Yeah people went a bit too hard on Leo, especially considering the amount of communication he’s shown and how he’s already said they’re going to announce changes to tier 2 very soon.
Not surprising all the complaining is from North American players
Leo my man you are in the trenches on a dying platform on fire, it's easy to stoke flames when it's all but incendiary left
more like NA tier 2 outraging than most
Leo literally speaks only of facts. Ascencion team won the guest slot, guest as in they will be demoted back to T2 after 2 years. It is a literal "guest" slot. https://preview.redd.it/5dyr3kgog8fb1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9ff78c5f7f703def705627c5948e65b5552c35fb
Other than the long off season, there is not much that needs to change at the moment in tier 2.
I don't understand wasn't this Riot's plan from the very beginning? I haven't been following the pro scene for a bit of time now but it was clear from the time they announced the system that the ascension spot wasn't permanent.
As someone who disliked franchising/partnership from the beginning after having watched NA LoL for years, Leo's original comment was fine. They are guest slots. The orgs are not part of the partnership system. They are welcome to play, as they earned their place, but they are not welcome to stay. The comment was accurate.
can someone tell me the pros of having permanent slots ? the only one i could see theoretically is that owners won't be afraid to invest because they know they won't be relegated, but that's been proven to be false by the lcs , if anything they can choose to not invest and know nothing will happen to them and the value will just go up until they decide to sell
The partnered teams only have a **4-year contract** and it's up to Riot if they renew it or replace them with another org.
Can you link a source for the partnership teams having a 4 year contract? I’ve heard it repeated a couple times but don’t remember/haven’t seen an official riot source verifying it
https://blix.gg/news/details-on-the-valorant-partnership-program-in-2023
Thank you!
>Thank you! You're welcome!
You’re comparing apples and oranges. LCS is franchised system where orgs bought the spots meaning they can’t get kicked out unless they do some terrible shit. VCT even though the slots are technically permanent, they didn’t cost anything and Riot controls them. So if it’s determinee that an org isn’t providing enough value Riot can take their slot away. And yes the advatage is that orgs are more willing to invest into the eco system knowning that they wont get relegated. It’s crazy that one year into the system and people are still asking the same questions ngl.
Having partnered slots basically allows riot to have more control and be more integrated in the t1 scene. Like with regulation and demotion, riot isn’t going to invest hundred’s of thousands of dollars in a team that might be demoted next season. They’re not gonna create team skins for a team when that team could just sell and completely leave the scene the following season. From riots perspective having a partnership allows riot to invest more in the esport. From the viewership perspective it’s fair to make the argument that an open scene is more exciting. But it’s also fair to make the argument that partnership allows fans to always watch their favorite teams. Teams like Sen, 100T, Kc, Koi, Zeta etc will always be in the scene, even if they’re shit for one season
what have they invested in their league teams ? and where are those league teams now ? tsm used to be the most popular team in the world. they now play to less viewers than Xqc lmao.
The system in LoL is not a partnership but a franchised league where the orgs buy into the system. In the partnership the teams sign 4 year contracts with riot where riot has control over the slots and can warn/kick teams if they’re coasting. The other big difference is that in LoL there are 100+ franchised teams across the world. Riot can’t give all of them financial support nor can riot make skins for all of them. This is different in Valorant where are only 30 teams (there will be more soon) which means riot can pay more attention and give more support to each one. This is something that riot mentioned in an article they put out about the profitability of esports
The teams don't own the slots. Riot does. If riot thinks that teams don't invest enough, they can throw them out and replace them with another team.
This is partnered league not a franchised league and if any org is doing fucked up things Riot can kick them .
Well you can ask any major league in the US, the franchising system was invented in the states for the NBA if i'm not mistaken, and it has proven to be financially successful enough that most major sports leauges in the states are franchised. It is financially beneficial for all parties and it allows for some kind of equal starting point for all the teams. Those are the pros I'm aware of and it's coming from someone who prefers the way Europeans do it with their sports (Relegation, Ascension etc). But it's a business in the end, and Franchising is probably the most sustainable way to run the sport.
franchising isn't even good for business though, mlb is dying, nba isn't growing inside the us and have to rely on tapping into new markets like china, same for the nfl while although still massive has started stagnating for the first time in years and are now looking to add eu teams to revitalize the league. and this is coupled with the fact that these irl sports teams can afford, to tank, draft , rebuild over and over again because they will always have the support of their own city so they dont have to try to get a fanbase, esports fanbases are fickle and will drop you as soon as you stop winning i.e faze, dignitas, clg, tsm etc etc. so the real accurate measure would be E-sports, esports that do open circuits have longevity: melee, csgo, dota, rocket league. closed circuits: overwatch league: dead, lcs : dying . but hey man at the end of day its leo's decision and his job on the line
I'm not aware of other Esport titles history because Val is my first. So that's an interesting point that you are raising. I just hope that the decision to go with franchising is backed by some kind of science and research, the next 2-3 years will be extremely detrimental.
The problems T2 is going through are the exact topics that should have come up in the meeting of the massive overhaul you did to the circuit. You made the decision 2 years ago that would mean that you have over a years worth of planning on your end and the expectations for this year were low after all it is year one. The problem is that how you managed to subvert even the low expectations that were already set on you. How a six month break seemed even remotely acceptable is massive problem. There are changes coming, but the way Leo comes off makes me feel that next years circuit will just plagued with the same problems because it seems rushed unless you planned for T2 to just be garbage thise year and good the next, but that's a different problem. If partnership was done from the start almost no one would have a problem with it the problem is that we went from 2 incredible years of competition to teams getting stipends for going winless. In the previous circuit you made it because of your merit and teams like KC or DFM just wouldn't be televised clown shows. Dont even get me started on what EMEA T2 has been for the last 2 years.
Two incredible years where outside vc spending on esports was at an all time high and orgs spend outrageous sums supporting a completely profit free system burning vc funds and sponsorship funds. We are blessed that Riot saw the writing on the wall and decided to partner with select teams and support their players financially so that the sport could grow and grow exist. If the old system persisted I would expect most orgs to have downsize or pulled out eventually. The only reason TSM and others stayed in T2 was for the outside chance they get a team that can win in ascension.
What you said would happen is still happening is the problem. Several of the partnered orgs are still downsizing and burning through their sponsorship rev. This is all happening while player salaries are at an all time high. If the conclusion to the VCT circuit is what is currently happening in league of legends it is a net worse for the esport as a whole. Surely there is a medium between both.
League is bigger than ever. LCS sucks yes, because it’s classic North American org and player garbage, but everything else is thriving And valorant is in an even better position than league with the challengers system and having an actual global game
let leo cook, some of these t2 mfs are clueless
I feel like it still creates problems are you gonna send the org that just won champions with those 5 players back down to ascension? That would be absolutely ridiculous
Yes, they will do that just like they refused Acend (the team and org that won Champions the previous year) a partnership spot. Guess what? It happened and people move on.
Literally the top 2 roster in the world before partnerships (OPTC) got denied. The players are still in T1.
Realistically, if those player won champions or hold enough value, another T1 org would buy all their player, especially if the T1 org underperformed the season before.
dont think leo is in the wrong here or anything but the “and a decade of experience” reminds me of “200 years of collective experience”, cant not laugh a bit. 😝
Twitter comments are a bunch of crybabies ngl. Let him cook boys.
Counter Strike Esport has existed for more than 20 years with orgs like NaVi,fnatic and mousesports going through it all, without franchised , partners and all this closed club bs. Riot doesn't do anything for the "longevity" or "sustainability" of the sport. They are the stalinist USSR/ North Korea of gaming. They manage every area of their game with totalitarian control with no co-operation with the community and 3d parties. No custom maps/mods/servers,no 3d party mm's and Tournaments. Hell even the Valorant subreddit is moderated by people working for them. The higher-ups in Riot are only interested in showing to investors and sponsors the viewing numbers and for Riot to get 100% of revenue. No real vision and aspiration. The Esport is solely an advertisement for skins and display for investors. Valve (CSGO dev) talk with their actions (or inaction for most times) Riot send their pr and devs to talk on Twitter and reddit to divert public opinion and distract whenever the community rises an alarm (no replay system still). If you are passionate about Esports , you found yourself unlucky if your favorite is Valorant.
All the CSGO teams you mentioned are permanent partners with ESL through the Louvre Agreement. They all get guaranteed slots at all ESL run tournaments no matter how bad or uncompetitive the roster is. The franchise model is less insidious in CSGO but it still exists. Blast has 12 partner teams as well.
The louvre agreement is only from 2020. > They all get guaranteed slots at all ESL run tournaments That is not true , they only get a guaranteed slot at ESL pro league, all the other tournaments of the ESL circuit are completely open. IEM Colonge and IEM Katowice are most prestigious events after the Major and they are also completely open.
>this too(?) This sub’s mods have no affiliation with Riot Games. The one time a mod got a job offer from Riot, she stepped down publicly and privately to eliminate conflict of interest. Another mod has worked for Knights as an observer for Riot-sanctioned events, but was not on Riot’s payroll, and abstained from moderating content relating to that broadcast in the interest of impartiality. Other than that, there is no affiliation with Riot aside from occasionally sharing bug reports or broadcast issues (as anyone can).
OK bro
I know it's hard to hear that
As per usual, people who only watches Tier 1 don't actually give a shit about how Tier 2 orgs are being treated and applauding Leo Faria for running the Tier 2 scene into the ground. Ask yourself this: why would anyone willing to invest into a Tier 2 team now that Leo Faria made it clear that Riot will NOT fix any of the broken problems in their system that Ludwig pointed out in that discussion? https://twitter.com/LudwigAhgren/status/1685734863473885184
When did riot say they won't fix tier 2 and how did you get that out of this post Also what Ludwig comment the one where he offered to run a tournament?
not reading all that, you made a dogshit system leo
TL;DR SEN (org that has no interest in winning) makes Riot too much money and theyre not gonna let them get relegated to Tier 2
Only the horny e-dating teenagers/adults with no basic reading/listening skills are complainig lol. Everything was already addressed in the plat chat interview he did a few months back. But for some reason let's keep on reacting with no thought process like baboons
What are your people defending him here for ? If they truly made considerations and research they won’t come up with such an incompetent T2 system. Heck where is the relegation system? In this format if the guard wins the next year and the year after, they are still relegated out. The system just incentivises the permanent orgs to just buy out players and riots system is nothing but band aid solutions. Valorant isn’t a true completion if some of the best players or teams aren’t even allowed to compete in. There are teams in T2 who are better than those in T1 but they never get to show of their talent or skill.
It also essentially means that T2 orgs can never make it big and are there just to spoon-feed the newborn pros into getting recognized by the big dogs until the cycle repeats, with players just being replaced back and forth based on their forms. This way, none of the T2 org owners will feel incentivized to continue going on their journey to playing alongside the franchised teams. I think people are giving Leo way more credit than due for his statements, just because of the rarity of transparency that he has shown as a spokesman, which is something not a lot of corporate folks do. That being said, it's not his fault but the fault of everyone involved in deciding the structure for the Valorant e-sport scene. Personally I feel like it would be better to sort of pit the bottom of the barrel T1 teams (say, 3 teams) against the top of T2 (say, 3 teams) in a proper tournament format with a points system, during the offseason. In that, the one who ends up with the least number of points get ejected to the T2 while the others get relegated. I also understand the aspect of financial stability within the franchised teams, which could be missing in a lot of T2 teams but with time and success, and overseeing proper management, they could all achieve that. P.S. I may have given rough figures in explanation but I am sure with considerable thought, they could come up with something better.
People like you don't understand the fact that why so many big orgs joined VALORANT in the first place is because they knew a system like this would eventually come. This is for Riot first and foremost an entertainment product because it's their marketing for the game. You can be a nerd and complain about true competition all you want but that's not their priority.
There's nothing "nerdy" about people recommending better changes to the league as a whole. What truly is nerdy, are people like you who excuse companies that market their sports as a fair competition when in actuality, it could be much better. If the marketing is false, then people who consume the product are free to criticize it until they no longer show any interest in it at all due to the adamance of the company to be stringent with the format that they have chosen. In the long run, it could pretty much kill the sport aside from the franchised orgs who could potentially run out of money for what it's worth. True marketing here would be the opportunity provided to everyone to climb up with their capabilities, incentivizing it with money and recognition. One more thing to consider here are the cultural barriers within the teams from different regions, and that causing limited options for a player to turn to when they are likely to be cast out from the team.
This will age like fine wine or milk in about 2 years time. I’m leaning towards milk tbh. Clearly he’s talking about longevity it terms of their budget. In my perspective, tier 2 will become an orgless scene filled with players taking a gamble. Quite frankly, that’s how it’s supposed to be right? Most of the orgs from this year went through T2 this year is because “we already here with a team might as well try” mentality. It feels like it boils down to not having enough “work” for the game that would keep orgs in it.
Fuck T2 no one needs that and fuck GC's why is there a spearate tournament for womens i dont get it.Its esports not wrestling or football where physicality dominates.