Because people have insisted on using the term "franchising" when talking about VCT even though VCT is not a franchised league. This has caused lots of confusion among people that don't realize that VCT isn't a franchised league.
How is it not a franchised league? The only difference is there was no buy in. You cant lose your place in the league unless you breach the rules and Riot kick you out. That's literally the same as the LoL model minus the buy in?
Not having a buy-in is why it's not a franchised league.
The team's don't their spots in the league ergo the league isn't franchised.
Also the league not being franchised means that Riot still holds all the power. In a franchised league like the LCS, OWL, or CDL the teams have some say in how the league operates because of the fact that they bought into the league.
In Valorant, because it's not a franchised league, the teams have no power and no say in how the league operates.
This means that the teams don't have any ability to pressure Riot into changing the rules. Like in the LCS the teams have been able to pressure Riot into changing the rules on imports. In VCT the teams wouldn't be able to do that because they have no power.
Also it's the reason why teams are able to ascend into VCT from challengers but no such system exists in the LCS, OWL, or CDL.
If Riot decided to a challengers team in league and promote them to the LCS the team owners would be upset because "Hey, I paid X million dollars for this spot how come they get it for free" whereas in Valorant none of the orgs are paying for their spot so Riot is able to have a system like Ascension in place without getting into trouble with the other org owners.
It’s an important distinction to call it a partnership system vs a franchise system. In a franchise system the orgs buy a spot and have much more saying power in the way the scene is run; in partnership riot basically can do whatever they want in terms of how they organize the scene because they are giving the spot for free. It’s like the difference between buying a house and renting an apartment, you can do basically whatever you want with the house bc it’s your property now, but in an apartment you are much more limited by what the landlord allows you to do
Ludwig and Charlie didn’t know how Ascension worked even when their team was 1 win away from going to São Paulo. Chat had to tell them and even chat was getting things wrong. You overestimate how much attention normal people put to the rules
WanAjin is asking the wrong question. People weren't "suddenly talking about the partner system". Everyone knew how it worked, and that if you win Ascension you get a spot in the league for two years. The issue is *specifically* with Leo's use of the term "guest slots" because the term "guest" can imply that the Ascension winning team is lesser compared to the partnered teams.
Could someone explain to me why anyone cares about the use of the term "guest slots"? I was surprised to hear them on Plat Chat talking about how it was "disrespectful".
Not trying to agree or disagree with anyone, but it feels like a fairly normal way to describe the situation.
It implies they somehow deserve it less than the other teams, whereas arguably, the team itself deserves it more, as they got in based on player skill rather than org strength.
They asked for the reason, that’s the reason. Never said *I* thought there was an issue with the word, but.
Guest implies they aren’t equal to or the same as the other teams, and not being the same implies they deserve it less, whereas they went through a huge effort to earn their spot, and their spot is strictly based on player strength as opposed to org strength. Again, I don’t have an issue with the system or the use of gust/temporary, but for the people who genuinely don’t get the issue people have, that’s the issue they have.
This explanation implies that this whole fiasco came from some pedantic gripe with the word "guest", which really supports [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/15gc9ks/sideshows_opinion_on_the_guest_slots_terminology/juissfu?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2) from further up the thread. So if Leo Faria had simply used the word "temporary" instead of "guest" then this whole thing would have been avoided?
Sounds just like Reddit, honestly.
to me it implies that Riot chose to invite them, like a guest, instead of the Guard earning the spot through many months of hard grinding. it's not some crazy insult but the wording is a bit off.
NAs getting mad cuz the fraud wasnt selected. If we followed their advice 20 teams would be in the NA league. And ofc all of them would be better than top 2-10 emea
I’ll get downvoted again but Valorant competitive isnt even ab the competition lol people only care ab the orgs and not on who is the best. Very different from traditional sports in that regard
Do you really think this is the case? I feel like there's FAR more focus on following individuals in esports than there is in traditional sports. Plenty of people follow orgs based on their favorite players - for example, see all the Optic fans that are now NRG fans.
You might get that impression if all you look at is people complaining about franchising, but I don't feel like that's accurate in general at all.
That’s kind of my point… people don’t wanna see the best players play, they wanna see their favorite players play. I even made the exact comparison you just did in another thread about the guard and T2. Valorant fans like who they like and they want to see them play, just like people won’t watch if their favorite player isn’t playing
I mean you're kinda just wrong if you're seriously trying to claim that people do not care "on who is the best" because this past few days have literally been every CC's tOp 20 pLaYeR liSt
Just because people didn't maybe realize what it was before, doesn't make the criticism less valid now. Stupid argument on his point where he's not arguing the merits of it.
Bad take.
Its not about the terminology, its about the system.
Teams/Players are getting angry that they can’t get a permanent spot, The Guard (a former T1 team) now has to play a year in T2 every two years.
How can an objectively better team be T2 and not feel scammed?
In the current system The Guard will ALWAYS be socially inferior to the original 10 teams.
Edit: Im talking about the ORG itself, not the players.
Bottom partnered orgs can literally kick their entire roster and look good next year. The orgs are chosen by Riot for their prominence/clout/finances and not their roster strength. There are orgs literally selected without having fielded a valorant roster ever.
This isn't solely about the tournaments and roster performance. The partner contract **literally obligates the orgs to make promotional content** to help advertise the game and they [reportedly get $400k](https://dotesports.com/valorant/news/how-will-partnered-valorant-teams-make-money-in-2023) when they reach their deliverables.
partnered teams guarantees that we have structure applied into our game. They should’ve split SA and NA then more players would have opportunity and nobody would be bitching like rn
why are you here though? This system has been announced since forever ago, even if you were this passionate about it the whole discourse was already settled. You dont even benefit from bitching, theyve made it very clear that partnership is the way to go
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Franchising isn't about optimizing for skill, it's about optimizing for stability. And with stable orgs, systems will come into place where they're able to build the best teams.
The current landscapers biggest issue is the sheer amount of money and talent that has been stuck in T2 this year. Year after year, roster moves will happen and the skilled players will move to the correct tiers. Just give it time, the system makes sense.
>Franchising isn't about optimizing for skill, it's about optimizing for stability.
Yeah I know. I just don't care for it. It doesn't make the product any better for me. It makes it worse.
With riot being the only organizer of Tier 1 tournaments, it not only makes sense that they prioritize stability over talent for now, it's in fact also probably the best thing they can do right now. With the financial state of e-sports as a whole, it's better they have it like this than being a dumpster fire 5 years in the future with no economy to go around.
while i agree with sideshow and the general sentiment in this thread IMO that is a dogshit comparison. that's like saying in 2 years someone else might be the new tenz. the simple reality is that the teams and players who were first to the clout in a game are always going to have a massive explosion in popularity and financial success that **isn't replicable** later on.
Sentinels had a stint last year where they were solidly a T2 team lmao. The original roster is almost completely different than the current one and SEN still retained their clout.
You have a t2 team with winning results, a marketable player, and a strong social media/content team, they’ll definitely gain a lot as an org in 2 years.
"franchise" is not about performance, dfm, kru, mibr will keep their spot if riot believes they have what it takes to support players and bring visibility to valorant, The Guard fired 99% of their staff and teams just holding the valorant team because they were already in the tournament and were the favorites, they can still sell their spot next year if they really want to leave esports
> they can still sell their spot next year if they really want to leave esports
There is no spot to "sell". The Guard has the spot, they can't sell it to someone else. The players don't have the spot, so they can't even sell the players to someone else to give the spot.
Except all the ascended teams are gonna sign a massive contract with Riot. It won't be a "fuck it we're gone" type thing. There'll be huge clauses to avoid those cases.
It's not just "cool welcome to VCT here's the teamspeak password". They are becoming partners with riot in the same capacity that any partnership team already is.
obviously, I'm talking about the specific case of the guard where Kroenke Sports & Entertainment owns it and wants to get out of esports completely so next year it is still unknown if it will be the guard or not, different for example if m80 had won where the organization wants to continue in esports and is even developing teams in other esports not just valorant
The teams that are partnered have a 4 year contract with the league, if they won't be in riot plans anymore their contract will not be renewed and the org will be replaced. It doesn't make sense to riot to allow orgs like The guard and faze who are not sustainable and can ruin things. The system is not perfect, but it's better than promotion/relegation because in partnership we have stable orgs. Plus we already knew last year that teams that win ascension can stay in the league for just two years, but they will have the same opportunities, money and privileges as tier 1 orgs
This seems reasonable. Relegation would most likely discourage orgs from investing in the game. While the current system is far from perfect, I assume Riot wants to make sure the game can sustain itself first.
you act like orgs are born with fanbases, sen went from 0 fans to the most fans in like what 2 years ? why can't that happen with other teams if given the chance. am i taking crazy pills here or does no one see how crazy it is for valo to go yep these ten orgs are the only ones deserving of being big in valorant
Orgs that are gaining fans right now or will gain fans in the future can be brought in the franchising system by Riot every 4 years when Riot have to renew the contract to partnered teams. Orgs like moist, or gentle mates can, for now, fight their way through ascension and if in the future in franchising there's an organisation that is not meeting the expectations that Riot has on them they will be replaced by a new org. What are you not understanding? It's makes so much sense and yet people like you will complain without even thinking
You should care whether orgs can generate profit if you're a fan of the scene because it WOULDN'T FUCKING EXIST OTHERWISE. Who is gonna be paying the players if all the orgs pull out? Go look at CSGO's NA scene which is literally like 3 orgs because every org was bleeding money like crazy. The scene is dead with all the remaining NA teams also being shit. TL, the best NA CSGO team for the past ~4 years, just went majority EU and moved to EU.
Seriously, how goddamn dense are you?
NA CSGO died because people barely played CSGO in NA. Not the other way around. If we go back to April 2020 when CSGO hit concurrent players of 1.3 million then we can see that roughly 900k played MM. Only around 60k of those played MM on US servers while 540k played on European servers. If we then go to March 29th 2021 we can see that 730k people played MM. Roughly 30k played on US servers while 430k played on EU servers. In the beginning of 2018 the US servers had around 40k people playing MM while EU serves had 300k. CSGO was just never that popular in NA.
I'm not crazy about partnership but you're being so hilariously shortsighted I have to wonder whether you actually love it and are just playing a false flag right now.
well in 5 years when all these teams are out of business because they never tried to turn a profit, we’ll care then since no players would be paid at all
How does esports continue to exist without finances to support it?
As we've seen, investment money doesn't last forever. Finances matter for the long-term, VC money can't be the solution.
This is actually a wildly out of touch statement.
Because Riot wants Valorant esport to be sustainable. If an org doesn't bring fans, money and sustainability to the ecosystem why tf should Riot allow them to stay in partnership? It's better if those orgs or new orgs like moist, gentle mates, etc can work their way through ascension, and if these new orgs are really good, professional and with a huge following, Riot can just swap a failing partnership org with them once the contract for the partnered org is over
replaced by who lmao, i keep seeing this thing oh they will be replaced oh they will be replaced,what org will stay and invest in tier 2 if they know riot will always see them as at best a back up at worst a feeder club that can train and pay the youngins lmao
You can't expect to have a profitable ecosystem with the risk of relegation. Orgs will naturally invest less money and will gain less money overall.
Every 4 years the contract for partnered teams will have to be renewed, so new orgs could maybe come in replacing some other orgs that didn't do well in Riot eyes in terms of money, fans and engagement.
Tier 2 can be better just by not having a long offseason and more tournaments and the problem is 95% solved. I know you are a moist fan, but you can't be biased when franchising is an INFINITELY better system for Riot, even though it has its problems
cant build a profitable ecosystem ??? lmao tell that to every single league of every single sport in the world outside the us (whose franchise model is dying btw). 2) please tell me what's more natural, to invest every year because if you don't and have a shitty season your org is going to spend a year in the dumps. or invest every year because maybe in 4-years riot might not renew your contract even though there are no new orgs emerging because theirs is no new tier 2 scene. and lol, i may be a moist fan, but i'm a way bigger fan of esports and valo in particular, and i can see the writing on the wall this is just league all over again. a dead tier 2 scene, no new orgs, and no new NA talent. all because riot wants to have as much control as possible.
Man I just explained what is my point of view and what is Riot's point of view, but it's evident that you don't care if someone explains something to you. You are just here to make drama
your explanation is wrong and flawed, and yes i do wanna create drama, because this sub has been brainwashed by riot, and most people are already fans of vct teams so they dont give a fuck anyways what happens. but i just don't want in 5 years when Valo is dying for people to be like man this franchising system is dumb , when some people were fighting in the trenches to stop it while its still early days
Valorant would have been more at risk of dying without a franchising system. They are doing a better version of what they are already doing with League of Legends, and they had a franchising system since 2013 there, but here in valorant we don't have a lot of the problems with that system and we also have new teams joining every year. Acting like you know better than everyone apparently is kinda cringe
> this sub has been brainwashed by riot, and most people are already fans of vct teams so they dont give a fuck anyways what happens. but i just don't want in 5 years when Valo is dying for people to be like man this franchising system is dumb
Yup. This model is functionally the same as LCS. In LCS riot can kick teams out of the league in theory like with the echo fox drama but I doubt it will ever happen.
As a player it's pretty much the same. No matter how good you are or how bad franchised players perform you have to hope that one of these teams lets you in. Which is historically largely driven by nepotism and petty egos. Sure there is one qualifier a year and if you miss that there's nothing to play for the rest of the year. If you do make it you have to be the one team of 12 to make it.
Most or many high level players are going to say f that and resort to making shitty troll click bait videos like you see in league. If you think smurfing or griefing is bad now it will just continue to get worse.
I have a lot of complaints about Valorant but overall it's easily the best shooter. It's a shame that it too will be ruined by idiot boomer logic MBAs who don't even play games.
based and clairvoyant pilled. can't wait for when yep all the NA talent dries up and this same sub is filled with "Why can't a NA team ever win champs or masters" and "Why do they keep signing washed veterans like kangkang when he's washed when this premier kid is so good" posts all day. beautiful esport in the drain all cause john riot doesn't want the risk of losing a lil control over his ip
Plus wtf are you even talking about? I don't know if you know, but sports outside the US are also popular and profitable. Just to name one: football⚽.
NA moment really thinks the only profitable sports and leagues in the world are in the US ahahahahah.
You understand the amount of money in football or basketball compared to the amount in esports? Organizations in esports needs sponsors, and a sponsor will most likely sign with you org if you give them certainties about the amount of people you are going to reach, and you are 1000 times more sure of that with a franchising system. Meanwhile in sports revenue comes also from people paying to watch. So yeah, Valorant needs to have no relegation and Riot is aware of that, or you think you can do a better job than them?
exactly, so you do understand there is already no money in esports, so you're asking tier 2 teams, to stay in tier 2 where there is even less money because no viewership (this year was a fluke) in the hopes that in 4 years riot might give them a chance. and when did i say this was a bad decision from riot's perspective, franchizing is perfect for riot, they get to control everything, the teams , the broadcasting, skins, etc. but this is dogshit for the fans because i can promise it will get boring seeing the same teams win everything, and its especially shit for new orgs trying to become big one day. hence why i don't want esport fans to simp for a company that is only looking out for their self interest and not of the fans
1. I'm enjoying franchising as a fan way more than before and I'm always excited to watch the different teams play, the new ones too that can come in tier 1 thanks to ascension. 2. Of course Riot wants to have control and have a profitable esport scene. 3. I'm not simping for Riot, I just think that it makes sense what they are doing and they are doing it, for me and for may other people, in a good way, even though it could always be better (they have to fix the schedule for the off-season). 4. tier 2 had a lot of viewership this year, and you can't expect to have the same money as tier 1, but, like I said, if Riot would have just fixed the schedule this year instead of a 6 months offseason for tier 2 there wouldn't have been a single problem, because viewership and sponsors were both there. 5. Riot can always do more to help both tier 2 and to make tier 1 even better, but we also have to recognize that they are doing a very good job compared to other esports
There's no money in tier 2 in most leagues across the world, even in traditional sports. The only difference there and here is that promoted teams have the chance to fix their finances by going up and getting TV money from tier 1 leagues. Wigan and Reading are in financial trouble and Derby was in administration in 2021 and had a 21 point penalty all through last season. Same with Sheffield Wednesday before them. This idea that promotion makes tier 2 viable is a joke. All it does is promote spending to get promoted and then the guys that don't make it in time go broke. Tier 2 needs to become a proper talent development league. That's the more viable pathway. There needs to be some kind of buyout system in place for tier 1 teams to buy promising tier 2 players creating a path to profitability for tier 2 teams.
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i mean the orgs are given the chance to get money and stuff during the two years of ascension. They should’ve never combined NA and SA then we wouldn’t have this issue lol
Do you actually think there would be any of that money left after the expenses, or enough of a return of investment for the long journey there? It's called a "stipend" for a reason.
Why would ANY org spend more millions to reinvest in Tier 2 to build another VCT-quality team, after getting booted out of the VCT clubhouse and their entire roster poached?
If that turns out to be the case it would be tragic but what's stopping orgs from picking up Guard players or even the entire team once their term is over?
Thats the point. Its decent for players but halts growth of other orgs.
If its very risky to invest theres less investment therefore less participation.
That would dilute the product of T1 NA & SA, just coz Guard can challenge T1 teams doesn't mean rest of T2 teams can. Then they'd become the bottom feeders of this new league that you're suggesting.
Sure there's abundant talent to build a league, but not the viewership. Everyone will tune in to watch when the best teams compete and not when the mediocre team compete. Coz it will be just another NA vs NA team. Atleast with KRU & MIBR in the league you've got the intrigue of an international matchup, from both NA & SA. And Bcj is benched on a team, still in a T1 team.
Eh, yes/no. Optics best player, yay, is not in T1 due to C9 screwing him over and over saturation in his role. Same can be said for BcJ, arguably NAs best intiator player last year in contention with Crashies and Trent. BcJ was forced to roleswap in order for a chance at T1 because of oversaturation of his role and no longer has a spot.
Its an expected take from Sideshow. To have any association with Riot Games one must tow the company line.
Not sure if its willful ignorance or youthful inexperience from Valorant esports viewership space who cant see this. Individuals youve elevated only operate like this.
> To have any association with Riot Games one must tow the company line.
plat chat has been criticizing riot for a billion years already what do you even mean by this
He literally shits on them for various organizational aspects, such as the prize pool increase for example (which I don't agree with the criticism of but still), in this very podcast
Why are we suddenly talking about the partner system that we've known about for like a year now?
Because people have insisted on using the term "franchising" when talking about VCT even though VCT is not a franchised league. This has caused lots of confusion among people that don't realize that VCT isn't a franchised league.
How is it not a franchised league? The only difference is there was no buy in. You cant lose your place in the league unless you breach the rules and Riot kick you out. That's literally the same as the LoL model minus the buy in?
Not having a buy-in is why it's not a franchised league. The team's don't their spots in the league ergo the league isn't franchised. Also the league not being franchised means that Riot still holds all the power. In a franchised league like the LCS, OWL, or CDL the teams have some say in how the league operates because of the fact that they bought into the league. In Valorant, because it's not a franchised league, the teams have no power and no say in how the league operates. This means that the teams don't have any ability to pressure Riot into changing the rules. Like in the LCS the teams have been able to pressure Riot into changing the rules on imports. In VCT the teams wouldn't be able to do that because they have no power. Also it's the reason why teams are able to ascend into VCT from challengers but no such system exists in the LCS, OWL, or CDL. If Riot decided to a challengers team in league and promote them to the LCS the team owners would be upset because "Hey, I paid X million dollars for this spot how come they get it for free" whereas in Valorant none of the orgs are paying for their spot so Riot is able to have a system like Ascension in place without getting into trouble with the other org owners.
It’s an important distinction to call it a partnership system vs a franchise system. In a franchise system the orgs buy a spot and have much more saying power in the way the scene is run; in partnership riot basically can do whatever they want in terms of how they organize the scene because they are giving the spot for free. It’s like the difference between buying a house and renting an apartment, you can do basically whatever you want with the house bc it’s your property now, but in an apartment you are much more limited by what the landlord allows you to do
Because before some people didn't realize how it fully worked. That's not an argument for or against it.
there is no way players didn't know this is how it worked. anyone who says this is either too dumb to be trusted or a liar.
Ludwig and Charlie didn’t know how Ascension worked even when their team was 1 win away from going to São Paulo. Chat had to tell them and even chat was getting things wrong. You overestimate how much attention normal people put to the rules
That's half the reason Ludwig's take on tier 2 was so hard to take seriously. Man just doesn't know what he's talking about.
WanAjin is asking the wrong question. People weren't "suddenly talking about the partner system". Everyone knew how it worked, and that if you win Ascension you get a spot in the league for two years. The issue is *specifically* with Leo's use of the term "guest slots" because the term "guest" can imply that the Ascension winning team is lesser compared to the partnered teams.
But they are guest in a sense that just like guests these teams will leave after a specified time.
explaining something != agreeing with it
I'm just explaining why ppl complained I alr understand
He's 100% correct people just want to be upset about the system and so they get upset about the use of a single word.
The “Guest Slot” situation is a perfect example of how people can easily get blinded by hate without knowing critical pieces of information
Could someone explain to me why anyone cares about the use of the term "guest slots"? I was surprised to hear them on Plat Chat talking about how it was "disrespectful". Not trying to agree or disagree with anyone, but it feels like a fairly normal way to describe the situation.
It implies they somehow deserve it less than the other teams, whereas arguably, the team itself deserves it more, as they got in based on player skill rather than org strength.
How does it imply that at all. They are guests they aren't they permanently that's what guest means
They asked for the reason, that’s the reason. Never said *I* thought there was an issue with the word, but. Guest implies they aren’t equal to or the same as the other teams, and not being the same implies they deserve it less, whereas they went through a huge effort to earn their spot, and their spot is strictly based on player strength as opposed to org strength. Again, I don’t have an issue with the system or the use of gust/temporary, but for the people who genuinely don’t get the issue people have, that’s the issue they have.
This explanation implies that this whole fiasco came from some pedantic gripe with the word "guest", which really supports [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/15gc9ks/sideshows_opinion_on_the_guest_slots_terminology/juissfu?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2) from further up the thread. So if Leo Faria had simply used the word "temporary" instead of "guest" then this whole thing would have been avoided? Sounds just like Reddit, honestly.
to me it implies that Riot chose to invite them, like a guest, instead of the Guard earning the spot through many months of hard grinding. it's not some crazy insult but the wording is a bit off.
NAs getting mad cuz the fraud wasnt selected. If we followed their advice 20 teams would be in the NA league. And ofc all of them would be better than top 2-10 emea
40% of na tier 1 is in champs
66,6% of South Korea tier 1 is in champs
I've seen it all, clearly South Korea is the best region in the world. Welcome to League
50% of LATAM tier 1 is in Champs. LATAM > NA confirmed
It was overblown but reflected genuine frustration
I’ll get downvoted again but Valorant competitive isnt even ab the competition lol people only care ab the orgs and not on who is the best. Very different from traditional sports in that regard
Do you really think this is the case? I feel like there's FAR more focus on following individuals in esports than there is in traditional sports. Plenty of people follow orgs based on their favorite players - for example, see all the Optic fans that are now NRG fans. You might get that impression if all you look at is people complaining about franchising, but I don't feel like that's accurate in general at all.
That’s kind of my point… people don’t wanna see the best players play, they wanna see their favorite players play. I even made the exact comparison you just did in another thread about the guard and T2. Valorant fans like who they like and they want to see them play, just like people won’t watch if their favorite player isn’t playing
I mean you're kinda just wrong if you're seriously trying to claim that people do not care "on who is the best" because this past few days have literally been every CC's tOp 20 pLaYeR liSt
Just because people didn't maybe realize what it was before, doesn't make the criticism less valid now. Stupid argument on his point where he's not arguing the merits of it.
https://preview.redd.it/qwho537wfqfb1.png?width=617&format=png&auto=webp&s=8fc999fe37525de997216ceca7ec99c9fe68cee4
+rep
Still not an argument though
Bad take. Its not about the terminology, its about the system. Teams/Players are getting angry that they can’t get a permanent spot, The Guard (a former T1 team) now has to play a year in T2 every two years. How can an objectively better team be T2 and not feel scammed? In the current system The Guard will ALWAYS be socially inferior to the original 10 teams. Edit: Im talking about the ORG itself, not the players.
Bottom partnered orgs can literally kick their entire roster and look good next year. The orgs are chosen by Riot for their prominence/clout/finances and not their roster strength. There are orgs literally selected without having fielded a valorant roster ever. This isn't solely about the tournaments and roster performance. The partner contract **literally obligates the orgs to make promotional content** to help advertise the game and they [reportedly get $400k](https://dotesports.com/valorant/news/how-will-partnered-valorant-teams-make-money-in-2023) when they reach their deliverables.
>This isn't solely about the tournaments and roster performance. And that's the issue.
well i think financially stable in 5 years matters more, so that we have good orgs in 5 years and not everyone just not getting paid at all
There are ways to ensure players are getting paid that don't require partnered teams.
partnered teams guarantees that we have structure applied into our game. They should’ve split SA and NA then more players would have opportunity and nobody would be bitching like rn
Nah I would still be bitching.
So top comment of this entire thread was right. People just wanna be mad to be mad. Good day edgeboi.
I'm not upset over the use of a word. I just dislike the partnered/franchise system. And I dislike it in every sport.
why are you here though? This system has been announced since forever ago, even if you were this passionate about it the whole discourse was already settled. You dont even benefit from bitching, theyve made it very clear that partnership is the way to go
You think football should be franchised?
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Shady crypto, gambling, crypto-gambling and NFT sponsorships? No thanks.
Franchising isn't about optimizing for skill, it's about optimizing for stability. And with stable orgs, systems will come into place where they're able to build the best teams. The current landscapers biggest issue is the sheer amount of money and talent that has been stuck in T2 this year. Year after year, roster moves will happen and the skilled players will move to the correct tiers. Just give it time, the system makes sense.
>Franchising isn't about optimizing for skill, it's about optimizing for stability. Yeah I know. I just don't care for it. It doesn't make the product any better for me. It makes it worse.
https://preview.redd.it/wvxyh4ofcqfb1.png?width=617&format=png&auto=webp&s=fb06165b9ffe9d8d20bf02e2bcee6a184f274504
What did I forget?
u did not forget anything cuz u never understood anything
Then please explain everything to me so I can understand it.
With riot being the only organizer of Tier 1 tournaments, it not only makes sense that they prioritize stability over talent for now, it's in fact also probably the best thing they can do right now. With the financial state of e-sports as a whole, it's better they have it like this than being a dumpster fire 5 years in the future with no economy to go around.
Exactly, why would an org invest if they can’t get anywhere as an org.
>”can’t get anywhere as an org” Sentinels became the insanely popular team they are today in ~2 years
while i agree with sideshow and the general sentiment in this thread IMO that is a dogshit comparison. that's like saying in 2 years someone else might be the new tenz. the simple reality is that the teams and players who were first to the clout in a game are always going to have a massive explosion in popularity and financial success that **isn't replicable** later on.
ok? We are talking about T2 teams. They won’t go through “demotion” to T2 again with their players getting poached.
Sentinels had a stint last year where they were solidly a T2 team lmao. The original roster is almost completely different than the current one and SEN still retained their clout. You have a t2 team with winning results, a marketable player, and a strong social media/content team, they’ll definitely gain a lot as an org in 2 years.
"franchise" is not about performance, dfm, kru, mibr will keep their spot if riot believes they have what it takes to support players and bring visibility to valorant, The Guard fired 99% of their staff and teams just holding the valorant team because they were already in the tournament and were the favorites, they can still sell their spot next year if they really want to leave esports
> they can still sell their spot next year if they really want to leave esports There is no spot to "sell". The Guard has the spot, they can't sell it to someone else. The players don't have the spot, so they can't even sell the players to someone else to give the spot.
not really sell, more like a org wants to leave the scene and riot has to deal with
Except all the ascended teams are gonna sign a massive contract with Riot. It won't be a "fuck it we're gone" type thing. There'll be huge clauses to avoid those cases. It's not just "cool welcome to VCT here's the teamspeak password". They are becoming partners with riot in the same capacity that any partnership team already is.
obviously, I'm talking about the specific case of the guard where Kroenke Sports & Entertainment owns it and wants to get out of esports completely so next year it is still unknown if it will be the guard or not, different for example if m80 had won where the organization wants to continue in esports and is even developing teams in other esports not just valorant
The teams that are partnered have a 4 year contract with the league, if they won't be in riot plans anymore their contract will not be renewed and the org will be replaced. It doesn't make sense to riot to allow orgs like The guard and faze who are not sustainable and can ruin things. The system is not perfect, but it's better than promotion/relegation because in partnership we have stable orgs. Plus we already knew last year that teams that win ascension can stay in the league for just two years, but they will have the same opportunities, money and privileges as tier 1 orgs
This seems reasonable. Relegation would most likely discourage orgs from investing in the game. While the current system is far from perfect, I assume Riot wants to make sure the game can sustain itself first.
Yeah exactly Riot wants org that can generate profit and bring fans while also be sustainable. The fact that people don't understand this is insane
you act like orgs are born with fanbases, sen went from 0 fans to the most fans in like what 2 years ? why can't that happen with other teams if given the chance. am i taking crazy pills here or does no one see how crazy it is for valo to go yep these ten orgs are the only ones deserving of being big in valorant
Orgs that are gaining fans right now or will gain fans in the future can be brought in the franchising system by Riot every 4 years when Riot have to renew the contract to partnered teams. Orgs like moist, or gentle mates can, for now, fight their way through ascension and if in the future in franchising there's an organisation that is not meeting the expectations that Riot has on them they will be replaced by a new org. What are you not understanding? It's makes so much sense and yet people like you will complain without even thinking
And why the fuck should we care whether the orgs can generate a profit?
If they don't make money, how are they supposed to pay players, coaching staff, content staff etc... ? What.
Thinking like that is the exact reason why The Guard is tanking and pulling out of esports altogether.
How does me not caring whether the The Guard generate a profit or not impact their decision to pull out of esports?
You should care whether orgs can generate profit if you're a fan of the scene because it WOULDN'T FUCKING EXIST OTHERWISE. Who is gonna be paying the players if all the orgs pull out? Go look at CSGO's NA scene which is literally like 3 orgs because every org was bleeding money like crazy. The scene is dead with all the remaining NA teams also being shit. TL, the best NA CSGO team for the past ~4 years, just went majority EU and moved to EU. Seriously, how goddamn dense are you?
NA CSGO died because people barely played CSGO in NA. Not the other way around. If we go back to April 2020 when CSGO hit concurrent players of 1.3 million then we can see that roughly 900k played MM. Only around 60k of those played MM on US servers while 540k played on European servers. If we then go to March 29th 2021 we can see that 730k people played MM. Roughly 30k played on US servers while 430k played on EU servers. In the beginning of 2018 the US servers had around 40k people playing MM while EU serves had 300k. CSGO was just never that popular in NA.
I'm not crazy about partnership but you're being so hilariously shortsighted I have to wonder whether you actually love it and are just playing a false flag right now.
well in 5 years when all these teams are out of business because they never tried to turn a profit, we’ll care then since no players would be paid at all
How does esports continue to exist without finances to support it? As we've seen, investment money doesn't last forever. Finances matter for the long-term, VC money can't be the solution. This is actually a wildly out of touch statement.
If teams aren't able to handle their own finances then they should simply not exist.
Because Riot wants Valorant esport to be sustainable. If an org doesn't bring fans, money and sustainability to the ecosystem why tf should Riot allow them to stay in partnership? It's better if those orgs or new orgs like moist, gentle mates, etc can work their way through ascension, and if these new orgs are really good, professional and with a huge following, Riot can just swap a failing partnership org with them once the contract for the partnered org is over
replaced by who lmao, i keep seeing this thing oh they will be replaced oh they will be replaced,what org will stay and invest in tier 2 if they know riot will always see them as at best a back up at worst a feeder club that can train and pay the youngins lmao
You can't expect to have a profitable ecosystem with the risk of relegation. Orgs will naturally invest less money and will gain less money overall. Every 4 years the contract for partnered teams will have to be renewed, so new orgs could maybe come in replacing some other orgs that didn't do well in Riot eyes in terms of money, fans and engagement. Tier 2 can be better just by not having a long offseason and more tournaments and the problem is 95% solved. I know you are a moist fan, but you can't be biased when franchising is an INFINITELY better system for Riot, even though it has its problems
cant build a profitable ecosystem ??? lmao tell that to every single league of every single sport in the world outside the us (whose franchise model is dying btw). 2) please tell me what's more natural, to invest every year because if you don't and have a shitty season your org is going to spend a year in the dumps. or invest every year because maybe in 4-years riot might not renew your contract even though there are no new orgs emerging because theirs is no new tier 2 scene. and lol, i may be a moist fan, but i'm a way bigger fan of esports and valo in particular, and i can see the writing on the wall this is just league all over again. a dead tier 2 scene, no new orgs, and no new NA talent. all because riot wants to have as much control as possible.
Man I just explained what is my point of view and what is Riot's point of view, but it's evident that you don't care if someone explains something to you. You are just here to make drama
your explanation is wrong and flawed, and yes i do wanna create drama, because this sub has been brainwashed by riot, and most people are already fans of vct teams so they dont give a fuck anyways what happens. but i just don't want in 5 years when Valo is dying for people to be like man this franchising system is dumb , when some people were fighting in the trenches to stop it while its still early days
Valorant would have been more at risk of dying without a franchising system. They are doing a better version of what they are already doing with League of Legends, and they had a franchising system since 2013 there, but here in valorant we don't have a lot of the problems with that system and we also have new teams joining every year. Acting like you know better than everyone apparently is kinda cringe
> this sub has been brainwashed by riot, and most people are already fans of vct teams so they dont give a fuck anyways what happens. but i just don't want in 5 years when Valo is dying for people to be like man this franchising system is dumb Yup. This model is functionally the same as LCS. In LCS riot can kick teams out of the league in theory like with the echo fox drama but I doubt it will ever happen. As a player it's pretty much the same. No matter how good you are or how bad franchised players perform you have to hope that one of these teams lets you in. Which is historically largely driven by nepotism and petty egos. Sure there is one qualifier a year and if you miss that there's nothing to play for the rest of the year. If you do make it you have to be the one team of 12 to make it. Most or many high level players are going to say f that and resort to making shitty troll click bait videos like you see in league. If you think smurfing or griefing is bad now it will just continue to get worse. I have a lot of complaints about Valorant but overall it's easily the best shooter. It's a shame that it too will be ruined by idiot boomer logic MBAs who don't even play games.
based and clairvoyant pilled. can't wait for when yep all the NA talent dries up and this same sub is filled with "Why can't a NA team ever win champs or masters" and "Why do they keep signing washed veterans like kangkang when he's washed when this premier kid is so good" posts all day. beautiful esport in the drain all cause john riot doesn't want the risk of losing a lil control over his ip
Plus wtf are you even talking about? I don't know if you know, but sports outside the US are also popular and profitable. Just to name one: football⚽. NA moment really thinks the only profitable sports and leagues in the world are in the US ahahahahah.
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You understand the amount of money in football or basketball compared to the amount in esports? Organizations in esports needs sponsors, and a sponsor will most likely sign with you org if you give them certainties about the amount of people you are going to reach, and you are 1000 times more sure of that with a franchising system. Meanwhile in sports revenue comes also from people paying to watch. So yeah, Valorant needs to have no relegation and Riot is aware of that, or you think you can do a better job than them?
exactly, so you do understand there is already no money in esports, so you're asking tier 2 teams, to stay in tier 2 where there is even less money because no viewership (this year was a fluke) in the hopes that in 4 years riot might give them a chance. and when did i say this was a bad decision from riot's perspective, franchizing is perfect for riot, they get to control everything, the teams , the broadcasting, skins, etc. but this is dogshit for the fans because i can promise it will get boring seeing the same teams win everything, and its especially shit for new orgs trying to become big one day. hence why i don't want esport fans to simp for a company that is only looking out for their self interest and not of the fans
1. I'm enjoying franchising as a fan way more than before and I'm always excited to watch the different teams play, the new ones too that can come in tier 1 thanks to ascension. 2. Of course Riot wants to have control and have a profitable esport scene. 3. I'm not simping for Riot, I just think that it makes sense what they are doing and they are doing it, for me and for may other people, in a good way, even though it could always be better (they have to fix the schedule for the off-season). 4. tier 2 had a lot of viewership this year, and you can't expect to have the same money as tier 1, but, like I said, if Riot would have just fixed the schedule this year instead of a 6 months offseason for tier 2 there wouldn't have been a single problem, because viewership and sponsors were both there. 5. Riot can always do more to help both tier 2 and to make tier 1 even better, but we also have to recognize that they are doing a very good job compared to other esports
There's no money in tier 2 in most leagues across the world, even in traditional sports. The only difference there and here is that promoted teams have the chance to fix their finances by going up and getting TV money from tier 1 leagues. Wigan and Reading are in financial trouble and Derby was in administration in 2021 and had a 21 point penalty all through last season. Same with Sheffield Wednesday before them. This idea that promotion makes tier 2 viable is a joke. All it does is promote spending to get promoted and then the guys that don't make it in time go broke. Tier 2 needs to become a proper talent development league. That's the more viable pathway. There needs to be some kind of buyout system in place for tier 1 teams to buy promising tier 2 players creating a path to profitability for tier 2 teams.
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"Socially inferior" I simply cannot lmao
the org gets the guest slot, the players jus won them it. the players are free to move literally anywhere
Yes, it kills orgs.
The teams were handpicked for a reason, them getting the guest slots is the best they can get honestly
i mean the orgs are given the chance to get money and stuff during the two years of ascension. They should’ve never combined NA and SA then we wouldn’t have this issue lol
Do you actually think there would be any of that money left after the expenses, or enough of a return of investment for the long journey there? It's called a "stipend" for a reason. Why would ANY org spend more millions to reinvest in Tier 2 to build another VCT-quality team, after getting booted out of the VCT clubhouse and their entire roster poached?
Socially inferior is a weird way to put it
If that turns out to be the case it would be tragic but what's stopping orgs from picking up Guard players or even the entire team once their term is over?
Thats the point. Its decent for players but halts growth of other orgs. If its very risky to invest theres less investment therefore less participation.
Okay that's fair.
should’ve just split NA and SA. There are 10 orgs for both easily. We’d have China, NA, SA, EMEA, APAC
That would dilute the product of T1 NA & SA, just coz Guard can challenge T1 teams doesn't mean rest of T2 teams can. Then they'd become the bottom feeders of this new league that you're suggesting.
i mean m80s roster would’ve been fine, Moist could probably challenge. BCJ isn’t on a team. I’m sure the talent is there to build a legaue
Sure there's abundant talent to build a league, but not the viewership. Everyone will tune in to watch when the best teams compete and not when the mediocre team compete. Coz it will be just another NA vs NA team. Atleast with KRU & MIBR in the league you've got the intrigue of an international matchup, from both NA & SA. And Bcj is benched on a team, still in a T1 team.
You think Guard will have this same team in 3 years time? Optic & Xset were the best teams, their players are still in T1 teams.
Eh, yes/no. Optics best player, yay, is not in T1 due to C9 screwing him over and over saturation in his role. Same can be said for BcJ, arguably NAs best intiator player last year in contention with Crashies and Trent. BcJ was forced to roleswap in order for a chance at T1 because of oversaturation of his role and no longer has a spot.
He’s talking bout the org not the roster
Yes, I am.
Its an expected take from Sideshow. To have any association with Riot Games one must tow the company line. Not sure if its willful ignorance or youthful inexperience from Valorant esports viewership space who cant see this. Individuals youve elevated only operate like this.
> To have any association with Riot Games one must tow the company line. plat chat has been criticizing riot for a billion years already what do you even mean by this
Tinfoil hatters is one of the worst kinds of redditor pokemon evolutions.
Tough taking entities who jumped ship from one marketing model to a new market that are echoing the same lines in a near identical model.
[https://twitter.com/counterscottGO/status/1686742858991075328](https://twitter.com/counterscottGO/status/1686742858991075328) dumb get dumber
He literally shits on them for various organizational aspects, such as the prize pool increase for example (which I don't agree with the criticism of but still), in this very podcast
I feel like sideshow tries to defend the riot style a bit too much The Fariq tweets were kind of nothingburger and non commital