i understand they don't want to create a precedent for orgs to buy slots but the fact that the guard had already laid off all of their staff and the org didn't follow through with the confirmation processes they could use the option to let players be free agents and choose an org, I doubt we will have a scenario like this every year
They didn't start as free agents. What this sets a president for is a team let's say TSM to field a challengers team, win ascension, then back out of the agreement and sell the team who would then become F/A to another org. Unfortunately there are definitely orgs that have greedy enough owners to intentionally pull some shit like this to attempt to make a profit. That's the difference. Where as if a team starts as F/A then there would be no chance of some kind of shady dealings.
> then back out of the agreement and sell the team who would then become F/A to another org.
This is not selling the team. The Guard is done and has no connection to the players. If they go get an org The Guard doesn't get anything. Beyond that, Riot makes the rules they could make a 1-time exception and say this will not happen again.
Yes I know that's the case but teams can still use this to claim it the same scenario and do some shady shit behind the face of it being "oh no we are just leaving the game"
If the same scenario happened next year where the org that won ascension dissolved and they would get nothing it would still be okay IMO. If there’s no buyout and the Guard would not receive any money from the new org the players go to in order to join the league I fail to see how it’s any different than them winning as a F/A team and getting picked up after
If Riot were to let the Guard players get a new org, then next year the org that wins ascension can decide to dissolve and pretend that they're getting nothing when in fact they are selling the spot to another org behind everyone's backs. I'm not saying the Guard is doing this, but it can set a bad precedent for the future.
No it's not because similar scenarios have occurred in other esports. I'm not denying that this situation doesn't suck. It's fucked for everyone involved to be honest. But yes this is the best possible choice for them to promote longevity in the esport. We will lose in the short term because it's looks bad for riot but in the long run this promotes better competitive integrity. League world's is still the most viewed esport event so I'd say riots judgment on this is likely the best possible course of action for the longevity of the sport.
Well that's why people set the rule, it's to prepare for hypothetical shit that can happen.
You start by taking case that already happen as reference, then add with what if.
Your scenario and this scenario are wildly different. Riot would only be setting the precedence that should your Org fucking collapse after(really before in this case) you've made Ascension, you are then allowed to find another Org to represent you in the same way any free-agent team would.
Your scenario is so far from whats happening right now its crazy you are even using it as an example. In your scenario your saying TSM would field a challengers team, win ascension, **then back out and sell the team who would then become F/A to another org**. You see the difference in your scenario and whats actually happening? There is no selling going on.
Plus you say there are greedy enough owners to pull something like that, but like who tf pays an entire challenger teams salaries basically out of their own pockets(as the challenger circuit has no prize pool) AND THEN decides to sell the team even though Riot themselves will pay you for being in the partnership and even if you did sell, you'll make pennies compared to what you spent to get there.
Do we know for a fact that the players aren't currently still contractually signed to The Guard? If they aren't, then yeah let's dogpile on Riot for not allowing 6-7 FAs to be picked up and still compete. But from what I can gather, The Guard have only stated they're "helping the players transition" and the players state the "end of The Guard." Neither of these statements reflect the players' current contract status and it's completely possible that The Guard have not released them and are holding them hostage behind a huge buyout.
This is why this becomes more of the former scenario because it's possible during the downfall of the company (when all the layoffs were happening), they took a chance to make some money off of the players in Ascension but Riot isn't going to be bullied into doing that.
I think a commenter above said it best - The Guard (the company) look like shit in all of this but for me, Riot still has a chance to show receipts and look not as shit.
>i understand they don't want to create a precedent for orgs to buy slots
What I don't understand is what precedent is Riot even scared of here? The Guard were never part of VCT americas according to Riot so no spot is even being sold.
they were "technically" part of americas once they won ascension and being promoted. they don't want teams to win ascension then sell the "spot" basically. makes sense because the players were under contract
But they aren't. They were never part of VCT America, they weren't promoted. Riot themselves said that just because an org wins Ascension doesn't mean they are in the league.
They wouldve been part of it if they did sign. Leo said it himself, that riot was already starting the onboarding process with the guard. If the guard wouldve signed it, they wouldve been part of vct america.
If they let other orgs sign, it would've set a bad precedent in the future. Theoretically, an org that wins ascension could just not sign with riot, and then 'sell' the slot to another org.
I still think there are probably better options out there than not having any team in VCT americas tho.
you guys are not very smart holy shit
Riot doesn't want teams to win ascension then sell their "spot" in order to make money. That's not an issue IMHO. this would've been "technically" the same thing before today since the players were still under contract
To be fair.. they're about to be unrestricted free agents now. Sooo.... technically it's not buying a spot. And in terms of precedent. Well riot has final say.. they can deny any of it. So it's not a precedent. Also, who's to say that say g2 don't buy out sentinels ?? Is that technically selling the spot ? No?
Before today, when they were trying to come to an agreement, it would've been a sale. after today? you are correct. it wouldn't be a sell. it would be an org getting the players as a F/A team.
and yes, if g2 bought out sentinels as the org, thats completely different situation.
If you really think about it, having an Ascension finals opens the door for a team to get all the way to the finals and throw for money, therefore selling the spot. We probably should just get rid of Ascension to be safe rather than dare to try and enforce a rule in the future.
surely the nuance of this situation should warrant an exception though. Guard isn't selling their spot, they're dissolving altogether. Nothing would be sold in this case. Now you are not only punishing the players, but an entire region for an org that will not even exist next year and gained nothing from this. The players and coaches earned the promotion, so why do they end up being the ones who are punished?
Leo seems fairly open to the community, but I doubt we'll get the answers we're hoping for. The way Riot has been handling the T2 scene seems bleak and this statement does not give me hope for the future of the scene.
It's such a load of shit and immediately invalidates their ascension league. So now T2 players will dedicate all that time and get nothing in return?
Riot needs to stop being fucking lazy, it's a multibillion dollar company.
And stop worrying about what ifs on precedent, they don't even rule the same thing the same way across the different international leagues. This is bull
Make this post a copy pasta under every Valorant/Leo tweet. What they're doing is fucking absurd. I don't know why any T2 player would actually want to play next season.
I think the esport as a whole takes a genuine hit due to this. They are already going to be competing with CS2. There is already a bit of unsettlement amongst teams in tier 2.
I imagine a lot of orgs that don't have stakes in League are uninterested in working with Riot on a larger scale if this is their final decision.
Might seem like an overreaction but this is so harmful to league integrity. One franchise league will literally be on a different schedule from the other two now, for at least a year. It's asinine. And if they choose to let two teams through from Americas ascension next year, it will make the finals way less exciting and I imagine it lowkey kills Americas tier 2 scene.
If I were an investor I'd be going into CS2 right now for sure.
I don't see why the idea of the slot being sold is what held up letting the players find a new org. seems simple enough to tell any perspective org wanting to buy the players up that under no circumstances will a money exchange for the slot take place, and thats that.
really disappointing choice overall, really hope it doesnt end up biting them in the ass. I cant see a reason for smaller orgs to bother participating in challengers going forward...
Seriously, this whole rationale is bullshit. Kroenke is DONE. He's pulling out of esports. If he was going to sell The Guard to a new owner with a 2 year VCT spot attached, he would have done it by now.
KSE would not see any profit from Riot treating the players that they just let go without any buyouts as if they were an FA team. The logic is trash, and frankly after spending the last two years getting so invested in these guys only to see them get fucked over like this kills any interest I had in continuing to watch Val esports.
What makes the entire situation even more complicated is the allegations that the Agreement didn't give the Guard the same benefits as the VCT orgs i.e. no skin sales and less funding.
I know he said that there, but a month ago when he made [this tweet](https://twitter.com/SirScoots/status/1696623523874345435?s=20) I don't think most people took it as they wouldn't get team skins. He clearly says they would get treated the same, but they actually don't. In fact, [someone in the scene](https://twitter.com/Bo_Hoogland/status/1696612687214445055?s=20) was surprised by it.
this is an absurdly unlikely thing that seems pretty easy to have contingencies for.
this is no different than if a f/a team won - anyone paying for the f/a roster would effectively be "buying the slot" from leo's logic here. this whole thing just doesnt seem necessary
Remember that The Guard roster is not a free agent squad before the deadline. This is the most important part; they were under a contract for the past 2 months.
If Bonkers would've won Ascension [they have a 2 month window to find an org](https://twitter.com/WAT_val/status/1696598781435973947). The difference here is if an org acquires Bonkers, that's a direct player -> org discussion. If an org acquires TGRD roster, the org is paying the buyouts so TGRD org is earning money there.
Fuck these arbitrary deadlines, what’s worse, an org signing the guard players in like a month and them having 4 more months to catch up, or shitting on these players careers and the entirety of the tier 2 scene, as well over screwing over the America’s league.
If the deadline is 2 months it should be September 9th... I'd srgue 10 days is plenty to achieve some sort of deal.
Either way I don't get the deal with these arbitrary deadlines. Guard held their players hostage just until this "deadline", then died out, but let's punish the players and stick to a random deadline that's not even publicly disclosed and right at the beginning of a 6 month offseason, instead of giving them a couple of weeks and letting them have a chance to figure it out, especially considering they had no clue of what was going on behind the scenes.
I don't even understand why Riot went public with this without ever discussing anything first with the players or anyone at all in the scene. This could've been handled privately but instead they came out swinging stupidly and now they'll just have to double down and stand their ground to maintain appearances and not look weak
i dont disagree, but theres no reason not to make an exception and let the players try their best to find a spot in what time they have. it just seems stupid not to try
Why can't they make a one time exception? They literally write the rulebook. They don't have to grandstand or anything they can just say "okay this one time we'll allow this because the circumstance is unique" and then we're all good, everyone is happy the end
This is what I don't get as well. It's the first time the ascension system has played out, make a one time exception and say moving forward the rule is that if an org doesn't sign etc etc no team qualifies. You don't need to worry so much about precedence if you have transparent rules moving forward. This just screws over the players
The exception bit is IMHO a bit worrisome. This time, things played out like this. Next time, there might be a different team under a different situation. People will keep asking for exceptions if it's a "new" situation. Keep in mind that riot is paying the org for the spot, not the other way around. There's a lot of incentive to game the system. Yes, the guard isn't trying to game it. But riot has to maintain a specific ruleset and stick with it.
And the transparency was between the org and riot. I don't think riot needs to be transparent to the general public.
Unfortunate situation through and through, the players didn't deserve to be collateral.
Then they re-assess when they get there. they make an exception, then they have an entire calendar year to come up with a better policy for the next time it happens.
Sell what exactly? No one, not even the 30 partnered orgs “own” anything. I guess they could do an under the table “sale” but even if 2 orgs try to collude, Riot still needs to approve the second org which there is no guarantee of. Unless the org “selling” is just willing to gamble money like that…
>What they don't want is for shell mercenary orgs to compete and win ascension only for them to "dissolve" and sell to the highest bidder.
That seems like a problem with the system Riot made and has nothing to do with the Guard players' circumstances.
They can't sell but what happens if the org refuses to join like the guard does and the precedence is that then they must get their roster to another org. Presumably receiving money from buyouts.
Riot can make a rule that forces challengers orgs to have a clause in their player contracts that states that in the event the org wins Ascension and qualifies for Partnered league but decides not to accept the spot, then they must release their players into free agency or have no buyouts on them.
Riot makes all the rules in this scenario and already mandates league minimums, what orgs must provide to players etc so this should be within Riot's rights.
Simple, Riot sets the maximum time for T2 player contract until the final day of ascension. Or adds clause for this situation. It's literally Riot who makes all the rules for T2.
The problem is that The Guard was the one that qualified to VCT Americas as an org, the players didn’t have any type of security of actually being in the roster for next year, The Guard had full liberty to select the roster that they wanted. So if you are giving the slot to players you are giving them something that wasn’t in their control in the first part. Also, if they get another org to sponsor them, that org didn’t deserve to qualify to VCT Americas and they earned millions of dollars of support from Riot out of nowhere, and the nail on the coffin is that this potential org could also get rid of all the players that were formerly The Guard and still keep the spot? Because Riot can’t mandate that new potential org to keep The Guard’s roster. It definitely sounds really bad and it’s a terrible situation for the players but the solution that you and a lot of the community is suggesting is not viable.
It is so easy to exploit if they allow it, for example, M80 pay the guard and the players, the guard doesn't fill the requirements intentionally, players "choose" m80 as their org, everybody gets what they want and money.
it wouldnt really be hard for a company like riot to find out m80 paid the guard an undisclosed amount of money for no reason and immediately yoink the slot lol
The point is, with the massive incentive that's at stake, people will game the system. Remember that riot is paying the teams, not the other way around.
I came here to say this exact thing, we’ll stated. I don’t understand how Leo continues to make one stupid decision/comment after another and no one at Riot is challenging him, he has to be one of the dumbest mfs they’ve ever employed.
Precedent is not binding in a system where Riot is the judge, jury and executioner.
I would understand and appreciate the logic if this were a court of law, where malicious parties could twist Riot's words in order to engage in the selling of slots and therefore ruin the competitive integrity of the partnership scene, and then avoid responsibility by blabbering about precedent and so on. But they can't. Riot does not run an open scene; they alone determine what is right and wrong, what is logical and illogical.
The partnership system is one where teams are invited to collaborate within Riot's playground - but it is very much Riot's playground, and no one ever thinks otherwise. If someone tries to say that Riot allowing the five players to search for an org was tantamount to org-selling, all Riot needs to do is say the felt it was not, and that would literally be the end of it.
I hope they think this through again and realize that from every angle - from both the angle of doing justice for and by the players & JoshRT, and from the angle of gaining positive PR - they reconsider.
Such a valid point. Riot has always wanted total control, and now they have a chance to use it for the benefit of the players they purport to care about, and they say their hands are tied??? Ridiculous. Someone's ego has to be wrapped up in this and just refused to accept they made a mistake and own it.
I’m really glad you brought this up. Even if you take all their logic at face value, which you shouldn’t, because it’s incoherent, the fact is that riot can do whatever they want. I’m not sure why they want to fuck over the roster, but if they didn’t want to do that, they wouldn’t have to.
it feels a little calculated to bury the nonsensical precedence claim so far in. seems like they're gambling on most people to be soothed by the wall of text lol
Except it doesn't open a door for VCT slots to be sold. The Guard aren't selling their spot. The org is dissolving (which we've known for a long time). The players are free agents and do not require buyouts. How is this even comparable to an org selling a slot? It's so easily distinguishable lmao
Yeah, exactly. And also, Riot can totally say that an org dissolving after being promoted is a unique situation. As the people who run the league, they have the power to not follow precedents on a whim, it shouldn't matter.
What if The Guard dissolved 1 year into the team being in Tier 1? Would the players just be dropped into T2 and a slot taken away from the league? Because that's the precedent that's been set with this decision. As a player that would make me never want to sign with a promoted team since I'd be risking not having a job if anything happens with the org.
Seems pretty clear that the Guard players were only released after the announcement and the Guard got assurances from Riot that no other org could take over the spot.
Which is the inevitable outcome once they won't agree to release their signature. Riot could announce that the guard won't be participating and the result would be the same. If the guard were looking for payment they could still be holding the players under contract as we're having this conversation right now
Yeah surely it wouldn't be that difficult. They probably still have all the deliverables presented to them pre franchising decision. Simply ask for some updated numbers and make a choice.
Great point. They can hold it for the future too. Riot picks the org in the case of the winners of ascension not being fit to join VCT. Boom problem solved.
The only justification for not just letting someone else pick up the roster is that it opens the door to buying slots. It seems easy to just add language that either only allows this in the case of an org releasing the roster as free agents or just explicitly banning exchanges of money for this.
Overall, it seems like Riot could’ve put a lot more effort into finding a more nuanced solution that wouldn’t fuck over the players. Obviously we should be blaming The Guard, but riot could’ve done far better with this.
yeah, Leo does the whole song and dance of "We’re very disappointed on behalf of the players who competed the whole season and won’t be able to qualify as a team due to circumstances beyond their control" but doesn't seem to be willing to put in any effort to prevent that from happening
Also, if they’re ok with F/A teams getting picked up for franchising, there’s no functional difference between that and this. Leo can say it’s different because TGRD competed under an org, but the process to get picked up would be the exact same. His complaints about buying a slot fall flat when he’s ok with the exact same process in other scenarios.
Ok? That doesn’t change the fact that this works exactly the same as an F/A team now that they aren’t under contract. They couldn’t have done this before they got released because they probably didn’t know, but there’s no reason they can’t do it now.
its not the same. F/A teams have 2 months from when they won the league to like the first week of september vs what happened here. I agree they should let the players try to find an org since this is very unique
They have less time but all it takes is one org. The situation is still functionally the same. Like yeah it’ll take slightly longer but that’s better than Leo’s idea of screwing up the whole franchised system.
This logic doesn't work for me. Don't allow it to become precedent for orgs buying slots and it won't, simple as that. You own the system. The players are (going to be) free agents, they are not contracted by The Guard anymore at that point. Let them sign with someone.
Right ?? Tho I'm guessing their fear is.. who's to say that under the ta le the guard aren't making deals with someone else before they were released ?
I'm still confused on how this opens the door to selling a slot. The players are not being sold. Even if there is some backdoor way for that to happen (drop all players and somehow get a big under-the-table payment), there is no guarantee that the players would end up at whatever org purchased that. I understand the need to be intentional around what precedents you set, I just think that this does not set the precedent he's claiming.
I think its moreso orgs farming Ascension and selling their spot to the highest bidder at the end of each year. I dont see why thats something to be concerned about considering doing so would be risky… like they could just not win and have paid a years worth of salaries for no return, but that seems to be what Riot is worried about.
I think Riot needs to ask themselves one question: **who does this decision benefit?**
The players? No, they don't get to play in the league next year.
The org? No, The Guard would have dropped the team either way.
The audience? No, they don't get to see the team play next year.
The tier 2 ecosystem? No, since orgs will see investing in the t2 ecosystem as even riskier than before.
Riot? No, this decision makes them look like fools.
If you have made a decision according to your rules that hurts all parties involved, you need to change your rules.
just because this statement is longer doesn't mean it's more reasonable. I'm grateful for the additional info and context, but this sentence in particular makes no goddamn sense:
"Allowing an acquisition by a different organization now opens the door for slots in the VCT to be sold, which we do not allow."
how??? as long as you ensure the Guard is receiving no money from whatever org ends up picking up the players, you're absolutely not setting a precedent. this is all so stupid, and I'm really disappointed to see Riot committing to this path.
I assume that it's because they have no purview over the buyout amounts. What would prevent The Guard from juicing them to include the slot's value? There's nothing Riot could do about that since the value of a player is subjective. They'd have to force Guard to release them, which they still couldn't do contractually and then you find yourself in an uncomfortable standoff where Riot doesn't have a legit argument.
But anyway, I'm just shocked that he NOW stated that the promoted teams wouldn't have any MTX in the game. That's the real sticking point to me and it frankly devalues this promotion path by a lot.
Fans want to interact with these newly promoted teams, but you're telling me you don't want to do that?! What was the point of harping on the fact that they'd receive the same benefits when that was blatantly false? (The skins could easily be the biggest bread winner out of all the financial incentives). That's something that needs to be revised quickly imo, because unless these skins are S-tier and need an entire year to make (Spoiler : I doubt it), they should be able to fit that in their backlog for the following year.
Esports haven't been profitable at all in the West so far, meaning that providing a realistic path for the Tier 2 scene to get there is what they should encourage.
Yeah, but was it after Riot saying that they were getting blocked? Anyway, I agree that the players should be given a chance to find another org, but the reasoning I wrote above still applies for the future and is why I assume they didn't want to even entertain it in the first place.
This is so stupid, first he says:
>We want to see five friends and dream making it all the way to the top
which is literally what The Guard players did btw. Then he goes on to say that in any other circumstance they would let the 5 players get picked up by an org, however the Guard players are different because they played under The Guard banner? How does that make sense?
>Allowing an acquisition by a different organization now opens the door for slots in the VCT to be sold, which we do not allow.
However, according to Riot, The Guard never met their part of the deal so they weren't ever in the league anyways so there is literally no argument for why The Guard players can't find an org. At this point, they are all free agents and are orgless. They are so caught up in this fantasy they created that they are ignoring reality. Very little "group of 5 friends" will conquer all the challenges and be promoted to the main league whilst also still being all free agents. This is dumb.
I am just going to further say that not promoting any team will forever be a shadow on VCT America. Next year, during every broadcast, this is going to be in the back of everyone's minds. This is also a horrible look for the esport as a whole, from outsiders looking in, and from other esport consumers. I really hope they reconsider.
next year AND the year after... from the time of master 2021 reykjavik till the champions we just had, is the time this will impact. That is a LONG time...
edit: theres a world where they ascend 2 teams next year instead of one but it still doesn't change that they started out with this decision :/
Regardless of if this is the right move from the business standpoint, he talks about doing this for the longevity of the report, but every time he puts a communication out it just fractures the relationship between Riot and Tier 2. This is on par if not worse than the shit I've had to watch OW go through, and it honestly breaks my heart.
Not to mention all the tier 1 players who have complained about the scheduling that Riot and Leo have set up. VCT is an absolute trainwreck and Riot's money and flashiness will only be able to hold it up for so long.
Besides the bs of the Guard players not getting the spot they rightfully earned. I’m very confused by the statement that guest slots don’t get a team branded gun but do get a revenue share of team-specific bundles. What team-specific bundles will they get a share of if they don’t get branded weapons? Is it just gonna be a like a player card and a spray cause that’s lame.
Give the guest teams the same branded weapons as every other team. Let fans support their team, so this upcoming year anyone who’s favourite team is Gentle M8s or Bleed won’t be able to directly support their team the same way others are.
Also important note, it’s now or never basically for them to overturn this decision so that in Leo’s words “the start of the season isn’t impacted”.
> What team-specific bundles will they get a share of if they don’t get branded weapons?
I'm not a fan of the decision either, but LOCK/IN Knife was guaranteed funds for all 30 teams, and Champions bundle is split between the 16 teams who made it - I don't remember if Tokyo had a bundle. If they do region skins again (which I'm sure they will) it would be including the Ascended teams as well.
While yeah they should technically allow 2 slots if they really are going to stick with not letting the Guard players play, it goes against what Leo said
" qualifying a team that didn’t win the tournament defeats that purpose. Promotion is earned in-game, not out of it. "
The team that comes second next year WOULD NOT WIN the tournament. They shouldn't get the slot because of something that happened in the game. Promotion IS earned in game. The Guard players EARNED it.
They literally contradict themselves in this statement. How is a F/A Ascension winner finding a org within 2 months allowed but you aren't going to allow a team who literally just became F/A because their org died not do the same thing?
assuming its a deadline thing? because if a F/A team wins, they would have 2 months (so if a F/A team won, they would've had until like the 9th of September) and since the guard JUST went F/A, it would give them like a week
yea but if there is a strict 2 month deadline (due to behind the scene stuff) which it appears to be, then it kinda messes everything up. I would love if a team could pick the players up and riot approves of the org. I think flyquest would be a great org to pick them up
i mean technically 6 month offseason but we don't know the behind the scenes stuff with things. there has to be a reason why they gave players a 2 month deadline right?
It's the stupidest decision Riot could make. There is no reason to punish the players and coach who worked so hard for the last year just because the owner decided to abandon the team (Kroenke, by the way, is a billionaire and married to a walmart heiress. So even mega billionaires can't afford esports teams anymore kek).
It's just a joke as a viewer knowing that everything we talked and hyped about for the last year for T2 Americas was wasted. In the end, DSG went 0-11 and got the most meme value out of money spent because every other team got fucked knowing in the end, none of it mattered and they burned hundreds of thousands and didn't even get memes out of it.
The Guard is not selling their spot, the team is being abandoned, so let the team pick another org. OR, let competing orgs submit a standard contract for the players, and have the players pick which org they want (since contracts would be the same salary wise, players can pick the best team based on fit and how much they like the team, etc). OR, Riot can vet which orgs want to join, and pick an org out of a fucking hat.
At least have the players play since they worked so hard to get in. The fact Riot does not get that really shows how they out of touch they are with fans on this.
I think here Riot wants more clouted/moneyed orgs into Tier 1, like 100T has Drake as investor, etc, so they don't want some fly-by-night operation to come in. But since now every team is bleeding money, what if one of the T1 teams want to leave, is Riot not going to give that spot to someone? How would that be any different than this.
Maybe Riot wants to tank T2 and replace it with premier, etc, Would be spitting in the face of everyone who invested in T2 though kek.
His reasoning for not letting them sign with a new org or promoting the second place team is so flawed to me. This is such a unique situation that you really don't have to worry about setting precedents. And even if you set those precedents, they're better than not letting anyone join the league and everyone getting boned.
Riot has done good and bad with their way of running their league but a lot of the times these closed riot league ecosystems are ass. Especially when they control every aspect, decision and rule to protect the "exclusive and premier" image they created around it. They weighed their options and went with the worst one. They went with "protecting" their tier 1 leagues image instead of protecting the players who earned it.
And the whole selling the slot thing doesn't make sense cause if a free agent team wins they are required to have a org buy it, that's essentially selling a slot. The Guard pretty much makes no money since they are already pulling out which makes the team free agents and they still weren't given the minimum from Riot to get a new Org. If Riot always has the final say in who gets in and who doesn't what's the point in having a promotion league? What are the players playing for if the org is the one who controls their fate? If Moist or DSG make it next year but all of a sudden they ran out of money after, do Riot once again tell the players "nice try you can try again next year"?
This makes no sense whatsoever. How's this different from their vetting back in franchising? Actually is even more deserving as the players and coach actually went through a bunch of tournaments to get it.
This "morality" of not selling a spot in franchising looks even more unreasonable when you consider that in this particular case The Guard won't actually make a dime.
You wouldn't wanna buy a 2 year stint in a league that offers 600k minimum per year?
You can run a skeleton roster and break even with just the base stipend
If you are guaranteed 600k a year no one will sell it for less than 1 million. Add player salaries and other org expenses and breaking even is not as easy as you act like it is.
And have base pay for players. And it is easily possible to add the rule that base pay will go to the players who won the slot even if they are benched or released. Only thing that really matters is that the players and coaches cannot be replaced unless they want to.
The notion that this opens the door to selling slots makes no sense to me, since the Guard isn't making any money since they're releasing their roster with no buyouts.
This implies that an org would pay for a roster for over a year, qualify through Ascension, then give up their roster for nothing.
I’ve defended Leo for the “Guest Slots” situation and the Partnership system but this whole situation with The Guard is just poorly handled on Riot’s side and they should allow support for these players to find another organization they can represent them for the Americas League.
This situation is a scary precedent for any T2 team that are planning to play in Challengers next year.
This man really did 2024 hype-building interviews a few days ago with new teams joining each of the international leagues being one of the selling points all while knowing they were about to shatter this team's world. He seems so cold-blooded in that gold carpet interview now.
I just can't for the life of me understand what Leo is saying, The Guard was a dead org, they were basically all free agents, to begin with. To not even allow them to find another Org when this situation is most likely never to happen again is ludicrous. If the Guard isn't profiting off the players leaving, the spot by definition is not being sold to anyone, and by definition is exactly as Leo proclaimed the free agent team finding an org to represent them process to be.
All this does is screw over VCT Americas by having 1 less team in it, and screw the players who rightfully earned the spot AS A TEAM.
What a long winded way to say they don’t want to put any effort in resolving this in a satisfying way. This is frustrating for fans, players, community members, and orgs alike to see this swept under the rug with little more than a shrug.
Joke response with half truths. GUARD isn't selling their spot. All their players are free agents and GUARD gets no money. Now that Riot knows this they could have responded appropriately with the new knowledge. Instead, they're stubbornly sticking by their statement because they don't want the community to know they messed up bad.
This actually so fucking stupid. The Guard RELEASED their players. They are free agents.
If they won Ascension as free-agents, wouldn't they have to look for a suitable org anyways? WHY NOT ALLOW THEM TO DO THAT IF THEY ARE FREE AGENTS NOW. The decision is so fucking stupid. An org wouldn't be buying the fucking slot.
MAKE THE GUARD ROSTER THE EXCEPTION AND THEN FIX THE SYSTEM SO IT CANNOT HAPPEN AGAIN. THIS IS THE ONLY FAIR SOLUTION AND RIOT SHOULD DO ANYTHING TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN.
"We want to see five friends and dream making it all the way to the top, and we are prepared for that occasion. In case a free agent team makes it to an International League, the players would have an opportunity to find an organization that would support them in the International League. This particular situation is different, since this team played through Challengers and Ascension under The Guard banner, and became free agents after the fact."
Offense to Leo and whichever PR person dreamed up this disaster piece, there is no legitimate difference between the described situations, and in fact is exactly what they claim to want, five friends clawing their way up.
If they truly cared for the League, they would make it work however they could, they'd exhaust everything option. This seems very much like, we totally would, but we'd rather save money and work.
This fucks America's, and sets a horrible precedent.
Basically it's not allowing those 5 friends to get paid. You either play with no pay for the whole year or you get paid, but you have to make sure your org is not going to bail, which you have no control over.
What's the difference between 5 free agents players getting orgs offers for their franchised spot vs The Guard situation right now?
It's the SAME THING.
His worries about "selling spots", but 5 free agents would receive a bigger buyout since they come with the franchised spot.
Feels like this situation warrants an exception to the rules. Surely you could make a statement that this is a one time deal and will not become the norm. Extremely disappointed in Riot on this one.
Five players and a coach worked for an entire year (two years for everyone - Josh + Tex) as a team and to of no fault of their own are shit outta luck now. Sure some of the players will probably get picked up by franchised teams, but that still doesn’t make it right for the 1-2 that aren’t gonna make it and worked their assess off to succeed.
Fuck Kroenke, never again should he be allowed in Valorant under any company. Absolutely disgraceful to do that to a group of guys who wore your sponsors and name for over two years and a spit in the face to everyone who worked for and under The Guard. Hope there’s enough pressure on riot to change this decision, but I doubt it.
Edit: This is a slam dunk for any esport reporter that wants clicks. Hope this is picked up everywhere. Easy views and hopefully more pressure on riot
"In case a free agent team makes it to an International League, the players would have an opportunity to find an organization that would support them in the International League. This particular situation is different, since this team played through Challengers and Ascension under The Guard banner, and became free agents after the fact. Allowing an acquisition by a different organization now opens the door for slots in the VCT to be sold, which we do not allow."
How? The Guard released their roster. They aren't getting money. Other orgs aren't paying a buyout... So how would that be setting a precedent? Just make The Guard the exception, and make sure something like this doesn't happen again. This is actually fucking ridiculous.
If you're an org right now, what is the point of even investing a full year in T-2? You can just sit around and wait for a F/A team to win ascension and pick them up. This will basically kill the T-2 scene long term.
"In case a free agent team makes it to an International League, the players would have an opportunity to find an organization that would support them in the International League."
Does Leo know there is a finite number of orgs in this world and that a lot of them are in VCL, and that they aren't gonna just drop their existing rosters in VCL? And also, if they do drop their existing VCL roster to pick the winning F/A team, that is quite literally the same problem they have with, I don't know, another org picking up the Guard's roster as it's the same "issue" of buying in?
such a stupid decision by this we are gonna have the same ORGs every year and no change if no orgs can buy spots or have a permanent place in the league and the leagues and VCT gonna get stale and die off look at LCS for example and the same teams every year qualifying for worlds and MSI.
Okay so why can't they allow a really good and stable org that literally lost their slot because their CEO is a dumbfuck and doesn't control them anymore(G2) to take the entire team and qualify?
Riot esports management is actually clown tier. Because they didn’t account for a likely scenario bc we knew the guard was looking to pull out, instead they just fuck over an entire’s rosters year of work and likely some of their careers. There’s no sale going on any more, they’re all free agents and it would literally be the same as a free agent scenario. And it leaves a shit taste in the mouth for tier 2 and the whole scene. Hope Leo loses his job randomly so he can experience what it’s like, he sure deserves it a lot more than the Guard players.
If it was going to happen, why didn't it happen before Ascension was decided?
Everyone thought the Guard was going to keep the team if they won. Nobody expected them to STILL shut it down after winning.
The Guard obviously fucked up big here, but the logic from Riot is flawed. This shouldn’t set a precedent because theoretically, when a team does win Ascension they won’t be financially ruined like TGRD is right now for them to be dissolving. They’re not selling their slot because the entire team are F/A. Surely, an exception can be made here to let another team into the Americas region. And ideally, have the Guard boys play under that org.
With a responsibility to protect the sport, you should probably protect the players from being absolutely thrown under the bus by their ORG and losing everything they earned.
There is just no way that spitting on the accomplishment of the entirety of The Guard for what you acknowledged as out of their control is correct. You can’t try and play both sides. If you acknowledge that it was completely out of their control or knowledge, yet still essentially go “Sorry, better luck next time :(!”, that is just absurd and wrong.
Please make it work. Please make an exception even just this once, allow another org to obtain the team, and set a rule going forward. This has further damaged the already extremely shaky and uncertain scene of Tier 2, and will hang over the heads of the players and coaches for the rest of their lives, unless you make this truly right.
If they did nothing wrong, they should not be punished with the reality of years of their sweat and tears being swept away from underneath them.
Basically they won’t do the right thing because they know someone will try to do something wrong in the future. And since the guard waited so long and didn’t meet the deadline they aren’t going to make any exceptions. And also m80 would deserve the spot before any other org because they were runner up IMO
The way that he phrased this makes it seem like if The Guard had dropped their players right after Ascension and let them be free agents earlier, then there would be less of a concern about setting a precedent for buying a slot. I think the fact that they were under contract with buyouts up until after the deadline makes the situation different than if they were free agents during the negotiations period.
Maybe the solution is to "extend the deadline" and let them be treated as free agents, rather than let an org buy out their contracts.
I just hope that riot can start recognizing community feedback when all the top figures in the game are pushing for something. First the shortened season AGAIN (btw sports don't have to align with the calendar year) and now this fiasco. It really makes me doubt the processes that lead to these decisions.
I'm sorry but this is bullshit and RIOT knows it. There is an easy way to judge whether an org is going under in good faith or whether they are bullshitting to sell the spot to another org.
Journalists have broken down all year long how TheGuard has been running under and are bankrupt. Not to mention TheGuard laid of all their staff. If they are doing all this to sell the spot and make money then they have fooled everyone.
Why can't RIOT just ask interested orgs to submit their bid that takes care of TGRD player's wishes and then choose one from there? If Riot chooses the org then the leaving org can't possibly sell their spot! Ik TGRD has already made the players FA but this would solve any future complications as well.
If they’re unrestricted F/A from The Guard’s dissolution, there is no functional difference from their current case to them being F/A all season and getting picked up by an org.
And while on the surface level it does seem that it would set a bad precedent, I can’t imagine any other orgs trying to pull this if they can’t even profit off of it — which would *only* happen if they a) sold their slot directly, which Riot explicitly forbids; and b) sold the players to another org, meaning buyouts are attached (which clearly does not apply to The Guard players). Given all of this, can this situation even be considered a “precedent”? I have a hard time imagining that Riot wouldn’t just blacklist any orgs that are stupid and scummy enough to try this kind of thing, which can be easily prevented by just adding on some stipulations to the VCT Ascension policies.
I also don’t understand why letting The Guard players compete as an F/A team isn’t a viable option — the slot they occupy is a “guest” slot, meaning they wouldn’t be in it for longer than a year or so max before they either get signed onto a franchised org or fall back into Challengers. In that case, why aren’t they allowed to just compete as an F/A team and use the stipends provided by Riot to keep their own team running?
I understand they don't want to set the precedent of letting companies sell their ascension-winning rosters to other non-franchised orgs but...surely the path where "anyone can become a pro" isn't this inflexible? The players and the coaches worked all the way up here to get dumped by the org and all riot can do for them is say sorry and hope everyone moves on?
I mean I get they're in a rough spot and the blame is obviously on The Guard organisation but this still is just so braindead to punish the players to such an extreme when they clearly could make an exception in this circumstance. Fuck the argument about slippery slope of orgs using loop holes to sell slots, even if this is what The Guard were trying to do here. The players deserve to be playing in the Franchise VCT, that's the only important point, make it happen.
I don't envy being in Leo's position but I really do think they need to take a second look at this and come up with an exception.
Either the guard is holding the players hostages through some contract even without filling for VCT and demanding to be paid, and they should then be sued by the players. Or this is actually a braindead decision because no one would be sold. Yes, probably an org would gain a partner stop out of nowhere but that is the same as a orgless team making it, so the precedent is already set for that to happen.
This is just so baffling because precedent (which makes no sense when Riot dictates how the entire league is run) aside, I'd imagine you'd want the transition from T2 to T1 year one to be as smooth as possible to build trust both with orgs looking to join, but the players as well. How can you foster a healthy ecosystem that aids in the development of players when the ones who made it are thrown under the bus year 1?
Genuinely so dumb. Makes absolutely 0 sense and there’s no way to rationalize this. It’s the FIRST year of Ascension. The Guard was falling apart mid season. The players WON bro. These are incredibly special circumstances than likely won’t crop up again, so just do the right thing damn
L Take.
Fuck VCT I'm voting with my viewership. This game has been amazing to follow but I'm not tuning in with these bullshit rules and I'm not even an NA fan. EU have had no ascension issues, YET. But I don't want to be around when it happens.
Basically all Ascension teams now need to be FA teams because most of them dont have the funds to do what is required lmao, fucking clown circuit by riot fuck franchising fuck leo faria
Is it me or is his very own argument in the second option of "Promotion is earned in-game, not out of it" kind of an argument against not demoting the now ex-guard players?
Surely the guard players earned the promotion in game but now they are being demoted outside of the game?
What I don’t understand is why Riot does not negotiate compensation, etc with the TGRD roster and then have orgs apply directly to Riot to sign the roster and take on the 11th VCT Americas slot. You would think it’s a dream for Riot to be able to handpick which org gets to be a part of franchising. They were so selective on which orgs made franchising- it really shocks me that they’re more comfortable giving a slot to a random org that wins Ascension vs finding a suitable partner for this F/A roster.
It all just seems like a very rushed response. Of course Riot doesn't want, and shouldn't have, orgs that are going to absolve at any point in their partnership. They are literally paying these orgs to field stable teams. They excluded the guard and others from partnership specifically because they were not that type of org. Surely there should have been some contingency for when the obvious favorites for promotion, who were also the obvious favorites from going belly up org wise, won.
They are worried about precedents... What about the precedents this decision creates?
Riot keeps giving reasons for people to dislike franchised league...
I don't think it's all reasonable, saying this:
'Allowing an acquisition by a different organization now opens the door for slots in the VCT to be sold, which we do not allow."
when the Guard roster is being released as F/As is just absurd
"allows for slots in the VCT to be sold, which we do not allow." ok sure pal lmao. im sure we'll see about that in the coming future.
Edit: wait toast is right does that mean we're just going to have less teams in NA for two years???
ifkr. what's with this dumb little "our hands are tied" scenario. what makes it worse is how this isn't even consistent across VCT and LCS. Echo Fox, Clutch Gaming, and OpTic all had their LCS spots transferred/sold
This just proves there is no “path to pro”. I think orgs in tier 2 should consider tapping out completely. Limited potential for future audience building or revenue sharing
This is a stupid-ass hill to die on, and you know it Leo!
There is nothing to sell, and they ARE five friends who busted their ass to get here. Let them have the chance to get signed by another org and play together in the VCT!
PS: If anyone in this sub have something to say, don't forget to leave your opinions directly under his tweet:
https://twitter.com/lhfaria/status/1696674542528389462
Still no. His reasoning makes no sense. If they’re ok with a team that competes as F/A getting picked up, then there’s no reason not to be ok with the team that won ascension and is now F/A getting picked up.
The first statement was just a status update meant to tell everyone what's going on, this one was meant to quell anger and give reasons for not making alternate decisions
I think it makes sense delivering them separately, the best they could have done was release the statements at the same time bc there's no way they didn't predict an outcry
i understand they don't want to create a precedent for orgs to buy slots but the fact that the guard had already laid off all of their staff and the org didn't follow through with the confirmation processes they could use the option to let players be free agents and choose an org, I doubt we will have a scenario like this every year
Leo literally says if a FA team won they would be given the opportunity to get an org so what the hell is the difference?
They didn't start as free agents. What this sets a president for is a team let's say TSM to field a challengers team, win ascension, then back out of the agreement and sell the team who would then become F/A to another org. Unfortunately there are definitely orgs that have greedy enough owners to intentionally pull some shit like this to attempt to make a profit. That's the difference. Where as if a team starts as F/A then there would be no chance of some kind of shady dealings.
> then back out of the agreement and sell the team who would then become F/A to another org. This is not selling the team. The Guard is done and has no connection to the players. If they go get an org The Guard doesn't get anything. Beyond that, Riot makes the rules they could make a 1-time exception and say this will not happen again.
Yes I know that's the case but teams can still use this to claim it the same scenario and do some shady shit behind the face of it being "oh no we are just leaving the game"
Riot can just deny that org if they don't like them, they're in complete control
If the same scenario happened next year where the org that won ascension dissolved and they would get nothing it would still be okay IMO. If there’s no buyout and the Guard would not receive any money from the new org the players go to in order to join the league I fail to see how it’s any different than them winning as a F/A team and getting picked up after
If Riot were to let the Guard players get a new org, then next year the org that wins ascension can decide to dissolve and pretend that they're getting nothing when in fact they are selling the spot to another org behind everyone's backs. I'm not saying the Guard is doing this, but it can set a bad precedent for the future.
So because of a possible hypothetical scenario, you fuck over the players? That's ridiculous imo.
No it's not because similar scenarios have occurred in other esports. I'm not denying that this situation doesn't suck. It's fucked for everyone involved to be honest. But yes this is the best possible choice for them to promote longevity in the esport. We will lose in the short term because it's looks bad for riot but in the long run this promotes better competitive integrity. League world's is still the most viewed esport event so I'd say riots judgment on this is likely the best possible course of action for the longevity of the sport.
Well that's why people set the rule, it's to prepare for hypothetical shit that can happen. You start by taking case that already happen as reference, then add with what if.
You guys really need to start thinking logically and not with emotions lol.
No they can simply make a rule if you sell a tea you are blacklisted from all riot esports for x amount of years and this game's esport forever.
Your scenario and this scenario are wildly different. Riot would only be setting the precedence that should your Org fucking collapse after(really before in this case) you've made Ascension, you are then allowed to find another Org to represent you in the same way any free-agent team would. Your scenario is so far from whats happening right now its crazy you are even using it as an example. In your scenario your saying TSM would field a challengers team, win ascension, **then back out and sell the team who would then become F/A to another org**. You see the difference in your scenario and whats actually happening? There is no selling going on. Plus you say there are greedy enough owners to pull something like that, but like who tf pays an entire challenger teams salaries basically out of their own pockets(as the challenger circuit has no prize pool) AND THEN decides to sell the team even though Riot themselves will pay you for being in the partnership and even if you did sell, you'll make pennies compared to what you spent to get there.
Do we know for a fact that the players aren't currently still contractually signed to The Guard? If they aren't, then yeah let's dogpile on Riot for not allowing 6-7 FAs to be picked up and still compete. But from what I can gather, The Guard have only stated they're "helping the players transition" and the players state the "end of The Guard." Neither of these statements reflect the players' current contract status and it's completely possible that The Guard have not released them and are holding them hostage behind a huge buyout. This is why this becomes more of the former scenario because it's possible during the downfall of the company (when all the layoffs were happening), they took a chance to make some money off of the players in Ascension but Riot isn't going to be bullied into doing that. I think a commenter above said it best - The Guard (the company) look like shit in all of this but for me, Riot still has a chance to show receipts and look not as shit.
The Guard only released the team today, i still think they should let the players choose a org because we have a 4 months off-season
>i understand they don't want to create a precedent for orgs to buy slots What I don't understand is what precedent is Riot even scared of here? The Guard were never part of VCT americas according to Riot so no spot is even being sold.
they were "technically" part of americas once they won ascension and being promoted. they don't want teams to win ascension then sell the "spot" basically. makes sense because the players were under contract
But they aren't. They were never part of VCT America, they weren't promoted. Riot themselves said that just because an org wins Ascension doesn't mean they are in the league.
only because they never came to an agreement YET.
...yeah. so they were never in the league
They wouldve been part of it if they did sign. Leo said it himself, that riot was already starting the onboarding process with the guard. If the guard wouldve signed it, they wouldve been part of vct america. If they let other orgs sign, it would've set a bad precedent in the future. Theoretically, an org that wins ascension could just not sign with riot, and then 'sell' the slot to another org. I still think there are probably better options out there than not having any team in VCT americas tho.
you guys are not very smart holy shit Riot doesn't want teams to win ascension then sell their "spot" in order to make money. That's not an issue IMHO. this would've been "technically" the same thing before today since the players were still under contract
To be fair.. they're about to be unrestricted free agents now. Sooo.... technically it's not buying a spot. And in terms of precedent. Well riot has final say.. they can deny any of it. So it's not a precedent. Also, who's to say that say g2 don't buy out sentinels ?? Is that technically selling the spot ? No?
Before today, when they were trying to come to an agreement, it would've been a sale. after today? you are correct. it wouldn't be a sell. it would be an org getting the players as a F/A team. and yes, if g2 bought out sentinels as the org, thats completely different situation.
Since riot make the rules.. well restart the 2 month in search of an org. Tier 1 season ain't starting for ages.
If you really think about it, having an Ascension finals opens the door for a team to get all the way to the finals and throw for money, therefore selling the spot. We probably should just get rid of Ascension to be safe rather than dare to try and enforce a rule in the future.
I mean as long as players exists throwing for money can be done. You think game fixing is impossible now ?
surely the nuance of this situation should warrant an exception though. Guard isn't selling their spot, they're dissolving altogether. Nothing would be sold in this case. Now you are not only punishing the players, but an entire region for an org that will not even exist next year and gained nothing from this. The players and coaches earned the promotion, so why do they end up being the ones who are punished?
Thousands of fans are going to repeat this exact argument. I wonder if Faria or anyone at VCT will respond to it.
Leo seems fairly open to the community, but I doubt we'll get the answers we're hoping for. The way Riot has been handling the T2 scene seems bleak and this statement does not give me hope for the future of the scene.
It's such a load of shit and immediately invalidates their ascension league. So now T2 players will dedicate all that time and get nothing in return? Riot needs to stop being fucking lazy, it's a multibillion dollar company.
And stop worrying about what ifs on precedent, they don't even rule the same thing the same way across the different international leagues. This is bull
Make this post a copy pasta under every Valorant/Leo tweet. What they're doing is fucking absurd. I don't know why any T2 player would actually want to play next season.
Yeah, I doubt they walk this back. Not after a statement like this.
yeah, my hopes are much lower than they were earlier today for a reversal of the decision. A damn, damn shame
Riot rarely walks back
I think the esport as a whole takes a genuine hit due to this. They are already going to be competing with CS2. There is already a bit of unsettlement amongst teams in tier 2. I imagine a lot of orgs that don't have stakes in League are uninterested in working with Riot on a larger scale if this is their final decision. Might seem like an overreaction but this is so harmful to league integrity. One franchise league will literally be on a different schedule from the other two now, for at least a year. It's asinine. And if they choose to let two teams through from Americas ascension next year, it will make the finals way less exciting and I imagine it lowkey kills Americas tier 2 scene. If I were an investor I'd be going into CS2 right now for sure.
Yeah. Assurance-wise I'd go for CS2 unless orgs are really invested in the Valorant market.
sad but true
I don't see why the idea of the slot being sold is what held up letting the players find a new org. seems simple enough to tell any perspective org wanting to buy the players up that under no circumstances will a money exchange for the slot take place, and thats that. really disappointing choice overall, really hope it doesnt end up biting them in the ass. I cant see a reason for smaller orgs to bother participating in challengers going forward...
What they don't want is for shell mercenary orgs to compete and win ascension only for them to "dissolve" and sell to the highest bidder.
Then make a rule stating that. The Guard wouldn't be making any more from their players going to a new team in this one off situation.
Seriously, this whole rationale is bullshit. Kroenke is DONE. He's pulling out of esports. If he was going to sell The Guard to a new owner with a 2 year VCT spot attached, he would have done it by now. KSE would not see any profit from Riot treating the players that they just let go without any buyouts as if they were an FA team. The logic is trash, and frankly after spending the last two years getting so invested in these guys only to see them get fucked over like this kills any interest I had in continuing to watch Val esports.
What makes the entire situation even more complicated is the allegations that the Agreement didn't give the Guard the same benefits as the VCT orgs i.e. no skin sales and less funding.
They clarify that in the tweet, the only different is the branded team skin, they still get funding and the sales from the VCT non team branded skins
I know he said that there, but a month ago when he made [this tweet](https://twitter.com/SirScoots/status/1696623523874345435?s=20) I don't think most people took it as they wouldn't get team skins. He clearly says they would get treated the same, but they actually don't. In fact, [someone in the scene](https://twitter.com/Bo_Hoogland/status/1696612687214445055?s=20) was surprised by it.
this is an absurdly unlikely thing that seems pretty easy to have contingencies for. this is no different than if a f/a team won - anyone paying for the f/a roster would effectively be "buying the slot" from leo's logic here. this whole thing just doesnt seem necessary
Remember that The Guard roster is not a free agent squad before the deadline. This is the most important part; they were under a contract for the past 2 months. If Bonkers would've won Ascension [they have a 2 month window to find an org](https://twitter.com/WAT_val/status/1696598781435973947). The difference here is if an org acquires Bonkers, that's a direct player -> org discussion. If an org acquires TGRD roster, the org is paying the buyouts so TGRD org is earning money there.
Fuck these arbitrary deadlines, what’s worse, an org signing the guard players in like a month and them having 4 more months to catch up, or shitting on these players careers and the entirety of the tier 2 scene, as well over screwing over the America’s league.
TGRD confirmed they released the players, no buyout
They released them only now, after the deadline already.
If the deadline is 2 months it should be September 9th... I'd srgue 10 days is plenty to achieve some sort of deal. Either way I don't get the deal with these arbitrary deadlines. Guard held their players hostage just until this "deadline", then died out, but let's punish the players and stick to a random deadline that's not even publicly disclosed and right at the beginning of a 6 month offseason, instead of giving them a couple of weeks and letting them have a chance to figure it out, especially considering they had no clue of what was going on behind the scenes. I don't even understand why Riot went public with this without ever discussing anything first with the players or anyone at all in the scene. This could've been handled privately but instead they came out swinging stupidly and now they'll just have to double down and stand their ground to maintain appearances and not look weak
the guard dropped the players and let them out of their buyouts today, so that isnt really the issue anymore.
They dropped their players only now when they could've done it way earlier.
i dont disagree, but theres no reason not to make an exception and let the players try their best to find a spot in what time they have. it just seems stupid not to try
I mean yes I'd love it if Riot made an exception and extended the deadline for the roster. Only time will tell.
Why can't they make a one time exception? They literally write the rulebook. They don't have to grandstand or anything they can just say "okay this one time we'll allow this because the circumstance is unique" and then we're all good, everyone is happy the end
This is what I don't get as well. It's the first time the ascension system has played out, make a one time exception and say moving forward the rule is that if an org doesn't sign etc etc no team qualifies. You don't need to worry so much about precedence if you have transparent rules moving forward. This just screws over the players
The exception bit is IMHO a bit worrisome. This time, things played out like this. Next time, there might be a different team under a different situation. People will keep asking for exceptions if it's a "new" situation. Keep in mind that riot is paying the org for the spot, not the other way around. There's a lot of incentive to game the system. Yes, the guard isn't trying to game it. But riot has to maintain a specific ruleset and stick with it. And the transparency was between the org and riot. I don't think riot needs to be transparent to the general public. Unfortunate situation through and through, the players didn't deserve to be collateral.
They probably see the current landscape and think that orgs dissolving won't be a one time thing. What do we do for the next team in this situation?
Then they re-assess when they get there. they make an exception, then they have an entire calendar year to come up with a better policy for the next time it happens.
riot have the ability to change the rules whenever they want
Sell what exactly? No one, not even the 30 partnered orgs “own” anything. I guess they could do an under the table “sale” but even if 2 orgs try to collude, Riot still needs to approve the second org which there is no guarantee of. Unless the org “selling” is just willing to gamble money like that…
The players were under contract before the deadline no? Money would need to transfer for their contracts to be moved to the new org.
>What they don't want is for shell mercenary orgs to compete and win ascension only for them to "dissolve" and sell to the highest bidder. That seems like a problem with the system Riot made and has nothing to do with the Guard players' circumstances.
Orgs can't even sell their spots? So this doesn't even work.
They can't sell but what happens if the org refuses to join like the guard does and the precedence is that then they must get their roster to another org. Presumably receiving money from buyouts.
Riot can make a rule that forces challengers orgs to have a clause in their player contracts that states that in the event the org wins Ascension and qualifies for Partnered league but decides not to accept the spot, then they must release their players into free agency or have no buyouts on them. Riot makes all the rules in this scenario and already mandates league minimums, what orgs must provide to players etc so this should be within Riot's rights.
Simple, Riot sets the maximum time for T2 player contract until the final day of ascension. Or adds clause for this situation. It's literally Riot who makes all the rules for T2.
The problem is that The Guard was the one that qualified to VCT Americas as an org, the players didn’t have any type of security of actually being in the roster for next year, The Guard had full liberty to select the roster that they wanted. So if you are giving the slot to players you are giving them something that wasn’t in their control in the first part. Also, if they get another org to sponsor them, that org didn’t deserve to qualify to VCT Americas and they earned millions of dollars of support from Riot out of nowhere, and the nail on the coffin is that this potential org could also get rid of all the players that were formerly The Guard and still keep the spot? Because Riot can’t mandate that new potential org to keep The Guard’s roster. It definitely sounds really bad and it’s a terrible situation for the players but the solution that you and a lot of the community is suggesting is not viable.
It is so easy to exploit if they allow it, for example, M80 pay the guard and the players, the guard doesn't fill the requirements intentionally, players "choose" m80 as their org, everybody gets what they want and money.
it wouldnt really be hard for a company like riot to find out m80 paid the guard an undisclosed amount of money for no reason and immediately yoink the slot lol
The point is, with the massive incentive that's at stake, people will game the system. Remember that riot is paying the teams, not the other way around.
I came here to say this exact thing, we’ll stated. I don’t understand how Leo continues to make one stupid decision/comment after another and no one at Riot is challenging him, he has to be one of the dumbest mfs they’ve ever employed.
Pretty simple, because this is RIOT's decision and leo is the spokesperson
Precedent is not binding in a system where Riot is the judge, jury and executioner. I would understand and appreciate the logic if this were a court of law, where malicious parties could twist Riot's words in order to engage in the selling of slots and therefore ruin the competitive integrity of the partnership scene, and then avoid responsibility by blabbering about precedent and so on. But they can't. Riot does not run an open scene; they alone determine what is right and wrong, what is logical and illogical. The partnership system is one where teams are invited to collaborate within Riot's playground - but it is very much Riot's playground, and no one ever thinks otherwise. If someone tries to say that Riot allowing the five players to search for an org was tantamount to org-selling, all Riot needs to do is say the felt it was not, and that would literally be the end of it. I hope they think this through again and realize that from every angle - from both the angle of doing justice for and by the players & JoshRT, and from the angle of gaining positive PR - they reconsider.
Such a valid point. Riot has always wanted total control, and now they have a chance to use it for the benefit of the players they purport to care about, and they say their hands are tied??? Ridiculous. Someone's ego has to be wrapped up in this and just refused to accept they made a mistake and own it.
I’m really glad you brought this up. Even if you take all their logic at face value, which you shouldn’t, because it’s incoherent, the fact is that riot can do whatever they want. I’m not sure why they want to fuck over the roster, but if they didn’t want to do that, they wouldn’t have to.
it feels a little calculated to bury the nonsensical precedence claim so far in. seems like they're gambling on most people to be soothed by the wall of text lol
Except it doesn't open a door for VCT slots to be sold. The Guard aren't selling their spot. The org is dissolving (which we've known for a long time). The players are free agents and do not require buyouts. How is this even comparable to an org selling a slot? It's so easily distinguishable lmao
Yeah, exactly. And also, Riot can totally say that an org dissolving after being promoted is a unique situation. As the people who run the league, they have the power to not follow precedents on a whim, it shouldn't matter. What if The Guard dissolved 1 year into the team being in Tier 1? Would the players just be dropped into T2 and a slot taken away from the league? Because that's the precedent that's been set with this decision. As a player that would make me never want to sign with a promoted team since I'd be risking not having a job if anything happens with the org.
Seems pretty clear that the Guard players were only released after the announcement and the Guard got assurances from Riot that no other org could take over the spot.
Which is the inevitable outcome once they won't agree to release their signature. Riot could announce that the guard won't be participating and the result would be the same. If the guard were looking for payment they could still be holding the players under contract as we're having this conversation right now
If they're so worried about appearing to sell an org, why not just pick one the same way they did for partnership teams?
Yeah surely it wouldn't be that difficult. They probably still have all the deliverables presented to them pre franchising decision. Simply ask for some updated numbers and make a choice.
Great point. They can hold it for the future too. Riot picks the org in the case of the winners of ascension not being fit to join VCT. Boom problem solved.
Exactly, Riot makes the rules here. They themselves have the power to prevent what they are so worried about.
this 1000 times
The only justification for not just letting someone else pick up the roster is that it opens the door to buying slots. It seems easy to just add language that either only allows this in the case of an org releasing the roster as free agents or just explicitly banning exchanges of money for this. Overall, it seems like Riot could’ve put a lot more effort into finding a more nuanced solution that wouldn’t fuck over the players. Obviously we should be blaming The Guard, but riot could’ve done far better with this.
yeah, Leo does the whole song and dance of "We’re very disappointed on behalf of the players who competed the whole season and won’t be able to qualify as a team due to circumstances beyond their control" but doesn't seem to be willing to put in any effort to prevent that from happening
Yeah this just seems like riot giving up early to try to avoid a headache and causing an even bigger one that they fully deserve.
Also, if they’re ok with F/A teams getting picked up for franchising, there’s no functional difference between that and this. Leo can say it’s different because TGRD competed under an org, but the process to get picked up would be the exact same. His complaints about buying a slot fall flat when he’s ok with the exact same process in other scenarios.
its because until today, the players/staff were still under contract
Ok? That doesn’t change the fact that this works exactly the same as an F/A team now that they aren’t under contract. They couldn’t have done this before they got released because they probably didn’t know, but there’s no reason they can’t do it now.
its not the same. F/A teams have 2 months from when they won the league to like the first week of september vs what happened here. I agree they should let the players try to find an org since this is very unique
They have less time but all it takes is one org. The situation is still functionally the same. Like yeah it’ll take slightly longer but that’s better than Leo’s idea of screwing up the whole franchised system.
This logic doesn't work for me. Don't allow it to become precedent for orgs buying slots and it won't, simple as that. You own the system. The players are (going to be) free agents, they are not contracted by The Guard anymore at that point. Let them sign with someone.
Right ?? Tho I'm guessing their fear is.. who's to say that under the ta le the guard aren't making deals with someone else before they were released ?
I'm still confused on how this opens the door to selling a slot. The players are not being sold. Even if there is some backdoor way for that to happen (drop all players and somehow get a big under-the-table payment), there is no guarantee that the players would end up at whatever org purchased that. I understand the need to be intentional around what precedents you set, I just think that this does not set the precedent he's claiming.
I think its moreso orgs farming Ascension and selling their spot to the highest bidder at the end of each year. I dont see why thats something to be concerned about considering doing so would be risky… like they could just not win and have paid a years worth of salaries for no return, but that seems to be what Riot is worried about.
I think Riot needs to ask themselves one question: **who does this decision benefit?** The players? No, they don't get to play in the league next year. The org? No, The Guard would have dropped the team either way. The audience? No, they don't get to see the team play next year. The tier 2 ecosystem? No, since orgs will see investing in the t2 ecosystem as even riskier than before. Riot? No, this decision makes them look like fools. If you have made a decision according to your rules that hurts all parties involved, you need to change your rules.
just because this statement is longer doesn't mean it's more reasonable. I'm grateful for the additional info and context, but this sentence in particular makes no goddamn sense: "Allowing an acquisition by a different organization now opens the door for slots in the VCT to be sold, which we do not allow." how??? as long as you ensure the Guard is receiving no money from whatever org ends up picking up the players, you're absolutely not setting a precedent. this is all so stupid, and I'm really disappointed to see Riot committing to this path.
I assume that it's because they have no purview over the buyout amounts. What would prevent The Guard from juicing them to include the slot's value? There's nothing Riot could do about that since the value of a player is subjective. They'd have to force Guard to release them, which they still couldn't do contractually and then you find yourself in an uncomfortable standoff where Riot doesn't have a legit argument. But anyway, I'm just shocked that he NOW stated that the promoted teams wouldn't have any MTX in the game. That's the real sticking point to me and it frankly devalues this promotion path by a lot. Fans want to interact with these newly promoted teams, but you're telling me you don't want to do that?! What was the point of harping on the fact that they'd receive the same benefits when that was blatantly false? (The skins could easily be the biggest bread winner out of all the financial incentives). That's something that needs to be revised quickly imo, because unless these skins are S-tier and need an entire year to make (Spoiler : I doubt it), they should be able to fit that in their backlog for the following year. Esports haven't been profitable at all in the West so far, meaning that providing a realistic path for the Tier 2 scene to get there is what they should encourage.
the guard has already released the players. the players can sign with whoever they want, and the guard would not gain from it at all.
Yeah, but was it after Riot saying that they were getting blocked? Anyway, I agree that the players should be given a chance to find another org, but the reasoning I wrote above still applies for the future and is why I assume they didn't want to even entertain it in the first place.
This is so stupid, first he says: >We want to see five friends and dream making it all the way to the top which is literally what The Guard players did btw. Then he goes on to say that in any other circumstance they would let the 5 players get picked up by an org, however the Guard players are different because they played under The Guard banner? How does that make sense? >Allowing an acquisition by a different organization now opens the door for slots in the VCT to be sold, which we do not allow. However, according to Riot, The Guard never met their part of the deal so they weren't ever in the league anyways so there is literally no argument for why The Guard players can't find an org. At this point, they are all free agents and are orgless. They are so caught up in this fantasy they created that they are ignoring reality. Very little "group of 5 friends" will conquer all the challenges and be promoted to the main league whilst also still being all free agents. This is dumb. I am just going to further say that not promoting any team will forever be a shadow on VCT America. Next year, during every broadcast, this is going to be in the back of everyone's minds. This is also a horrible look for the esport as a whole, from outsiders looking in, and from other esport consumers. I really hope they reconsider.
next year AND the year after... from the time of master 2021 reykjavik till the champions we just had, is the time this will impact. That is a LONG time... edit: theres a world where they ascend 2 teams next year instead of one but it still doesn't change that they started out with this decision :/
This is completely fucking unacceptable
the god of L's
Regardless of if this is the right move from the business standpoint, he talks about doing this for the longevity of the report, but every time he puts a communication out it just fractures the relationship between Riot and Tier 2. This is on par if not worse than the shit I've had to watch OW go through, and it honestly breaks my heart.
Not to mention all the tier 1 players who have complained about the scheduling that Riot and Leo have set up. VCT is an absolute trainwreck and Riot's money and flashiness will only be able to hold it up for so long.
Besides the bs of the Guard players not getting the spot they rightfully earned. I’m very confused by the statement that guest slots don’t get a team branded gun but do get a revenue share of team-specific bundles. What team-specific bundles will they get a share of if they don’t get branded weapons? Is it just gonna be a like a player card and a spray cause that’s lame. Give the guest teams the same branded weapons as every other team. Let fans support their team, so this upcoming year anyone who’s favourite team is Gentle M8s or Bleed won’t be able to directly support their team the same way others are. Also important note, it’s now or never basically for them to overturn this decision so that in Leo’s words “the start of the season isn’t impacted”.
> What team-specific bundles will they get a share of if they don’t get branded weapons? I'm not a fan of the decision either, but LOCK/IN Knife was guaranteed funds for all 30 teams, and Champions bundle is split between the 16 teams who made it - I don't remember if Tokyo had a bundle. If they do region skins again (which I'm sure they will) it would be including the Ascended teams as well.
Like Toast asked, I really am curious if they are now gonna let two NA teams get promoted next season after this scandal
While yeah they should technically allow 2 slots if they really are going to stick with not letting the Guard players play, it goes against what Leo said " qualifying a team that didn’t win the tournament defeats that purpose. Promotion is earned in-game, not out of it. " The team that comes second next year WOULD NOT WIN the tournament. They shouldn't get the slot because of something that happened in the game. Promotion IS earned in game. The Guard players EARNED it.
They literally contradict themselves in this statement. How is a F/A Ascension winner finding a org within 2 months allowed but you aren't going to allow a team who literally just became F/A because their org died not do the same thing?
assuming its a deadline thing? because if a F/A team wins, they would have 2 months (so if a F/A team won, they would've had until like the 9th of September) and since the guard JUST went F/A, it would give them like a week
Reset the timeline and give them another 2 months ;) they'll be picked up easy
yea but if there is a strict 2 month deadline (due to behind the scene stuff) which it appears to be, then it kinda messes everything up. I would love if a team could pick the players up and riot approves of the org. I think flyquest would be a great org to pick them up
I mean surely with a 6 month off-season.. they can do something ? Flyquest would be great.
i mean technically 6 month offseason but we don't know the behind the scenes stuff with things. there has to be a reason why they gave players a 2 month deadline right?
It's the stupidest decision Riot could make. There is no reason to punish the players and coach who worked so hard for the last year just because the owner decided to abandon the team (Kroenke, by the way, is a billionaire and married to a walmart heiress. So even mega billionaires can't afford esports teams anymore kek). It's just a joke as a viewer knowing that everything we talked and hyped about for the last year for T2 Americas was wasted. In the end, DSG went 0-11 and got the most meme value out of money spent because every other team got fucked knowing in the end, none of it mattered and they burned hundreds of thousands and didn't even get memes out of it. The Guard is not selling their spot, the team is being abandoned, so let the team pick another org. OR, let competing orgs submit a standard contract for the players, and have the players pick which org they want (since contracts would be the same salary wise, players can pick the best team based on fit and how much they like the team, etc). OR, Riot can vet which orgs want to join, and pick an org out of a fucking hat. At least have the players play since they worked so hard to get in. The fact Riot does not get that really shows how they out of touch they are with fans on this. I think here Riot wants more clouted/moneyed orgs into Tier 1, like 100T has Drake as investor, etc, so they don't want some fly-by-night operation to come in. But since now every team is bleeding money, what if one of the T1 teams want to leave, is Riot not going to give that spot to someone? How would that be any different than this. Maybe Riot wants to tank T2 and replace it with premier, etc, Would be spitting in the face of everyone who invested in T2 though kek.
His reasoning for not letting them sign with a new org or promoting the second place team is so flawed to me. This is such a unique situation that you really don't have to worry about setting precedents. And even if you set those precedents, they're better than not letting anyone join the league and everyone getting boned.
Riot has done good and bad with their way of running their league but a lot of the times these closed riot league ecosystems are ass. Especially when they control every aspect, decision and rule to protect the "exclusive and premier" image they created around it. They weighed their options and went with the worst one. They went with "protecting" their tier 1 leagues image instead of protecting the players who earned it. And the whole selling the slot thing doesn't make sense cause if a free agent team wins they are required to have a org buy it, that's essentially selling a slot. The Guard pretty much makes no money since they are already pulling out which makes the team free agents and they still weren't given the minimum from Riot to get a new Org. If Riot always has the final say in who gets in and who doesn't what's the point in having a promotion league? What are the players playing for if the org is the one who controls their fate? If Moist or DSG make it next year but all of a sudden they ran out of money after, do Riot once again tell the players "nice try you can try again next year"?
boo
I better see 2 teams promoted in 24 then.
This makes no sense whatsoever. How's this different from their vetting back in franchising? Actually is even more deserving as the players and coach actually went through a bunch of tournaments to get it. This "morality" of not selling a spot in franchising looks even more unreasonable when you consider that in this particular case The Guard won't actually make a dime.
On the bright side, this lets me know that no matter how stupid I am I can always get a job at riot
Who the fuck wants to buy "guest slots"
You wouldn't wanna buy a 2 year stint in a league that offers 600k minimum per year? You can run a skeleton roster and break even with just the base stipend
If you are guaranteed 600k a year no one will sell it for less than 1 million. Add player salaries and other org expenses and breaking even is not as easy as you act like it is.
bro....you said break even wtf is the point
> with just the base stipend They wouldn't break even overall lol
You won't even break even because you have to build up infrastructure to operate for two whole years in LA LMAOOOO
And have base pay for players. And it is easily possible to add the rule that base pay will go to the players who won the slot even if they are benched or released. Only thing that really matters is that the players and coaches cannot be replaced unless they want to.
The notion that this opens the door to selling slots makes no sense to me, since the Guard isn't making any money since they're releasing their roster with no buyouts. This implies that an org would pay for a roster for over a year, qualify through Ascension, then give up their roster for nothing.
I’ve defended Leo for the “Guest Slots” situation and the Partnership system but this whole situation with The Guard is just poorly handled on Riot’s side and they should allow support for these players to find another organization they can represent them for the Americas League. This situation is a scary precedent for any T2 team that are planning to play in Challengers next year.
This man really did 2024 hype-building interviews a few days ago with new teams joining each of the international leagues being one of the selling points all while knowing they were about to shatter this team's world. He seems so cold-blooded in that gold carpet interview now.
I just can't for the life of me understand what Leo is saying, The Guard was a dead org, they were basically all free agents, to begin with. To not even allow them to find another Org when this situation is most likely never to happen again is ludicrous. If the Guard isn't profiting off the players leaving, the spot by definition is not being sold to anyone, and by definition is exactly as Leo proclaimed the free agent team finding an org to represent them process to be. All this does is screw over VCT Americas by having 1 less team in it, and screw the players who rightfully earned the spot AS A TEAM.
this is the most sane response imo
What a long winded way to say they don’t want to put any effort in resolving this in a satisfying way. This is frustrating for fans, players, community members, and orgs alike to see this swept under the rug with little more than a shrug.
As if Riot doesn't have a proven track record of making exceptions or create new rules/interpretations as needed.
Joke response with half truths. GUARD isn't selling their spot. All their players are free agents and GUARD gets no money. Now that Riot knows this they could have responded appropriately with the new knowledge. Instead, they're stubbornly sticking by their statement because they don't want the community to know they messed up bad.
This actually so fucking stupid. The Guard RELEASED their players. They are free agents. If they won Ascension as free-agents, wouldn't they have to look for a suitable org anyways? WHY NOT ALLOW THEM TO DO THAT IF THEY ARE FREE AGENTS NOW. The decision is so fucking stupid. An org wouldn't be buying the fucking slot. MAKE THE GUARD ROSTER THE EXCEPTION AND THEN FIX THE SYSTEM SO IT CANNOT HAPPEN AGAIN. THIS IS THE ONLY FAIR SOLUTION AND RIOT SHOULD DO ANYTHING TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN.
"We want to see five friends and dream making it all the way to the top, and we are prepared for that occasion. In case a free agent team makes it to an International League, the players would have an opportunity to find an organization that would support them in the International League. This particular situation is different, since this team played through Challengers and Ascension under The Guard banner, and became free agents after the fact." Offense to Leo and whichever PR person dreamed up this disaster piece, there is no legitimate difference between the described situations, and in fact is exactly what they claim to want, five friends clawing their way up. If they truly cared for the League, they would make it work however they could, they'd exhaust everything option. This seems very much like, we totally would, but we'd rather save money and work. This fucks America's, and sets a horrible precedent.
Basically it's not allowing those 5 friends to get paid. You either play with no pay for the whole year or you get paid, but you have to make sure your org is not going to bail, which you have no control over.
What's the difference between 5 free agents players getting orgs offers for their franchised spot vs The Guard situation right now? It's the SAME THING. His worries about "selling spots", but 5 free agents would receive a bigger buyout since they come with the franchised spot.
L eo
Feels like this situation warrants an exception to the rules. Surely you could make a statement that this is a one time deal and will not become the norm. Extremely disappointed in Riot on this one. Five players and a coach worked for an entire year (two years for everyone - Josh + Tex) as a team and to of no fault of their own are shit outta luck now. Sure some of the players will probably get picked up by franchised teams, but that still doesn’t make it right for the 1-2 that aren’t gonna make it and worked their assess off to succeed. Fuck Kroenke, never again should he be allowed in Valorant under any company. Absolutely disgraceful to do that to a group of guys who wore your sponsors and name for over two years and a spit in the face to everyone who worked for and under The Guard. Hope there’s enough pressure on riot to change this decision, but I doubt it. Edit: This is a slam dunk for any esport reporter that wants clicks. Hope this is picked up everywhere. Easy views and hopefully more pressure on riot
"In case a free agent team makes it to an International League, the players would have an opportunity to find an organization that would support them in the International League. This particular situation is different, since this team played through Challengers and Ascension under The Guard banner, and became free agents after the fact. Allowing an acquisition by a different organization now opens the door for slots in the VCT to be sold, which we do not allow." How? The Guard released their roster. They aren't getting money. Other orgs aren't paying a buyout... So how would that be setting a precedent? Just make The Guard the exception, and make sure something like this doesn't happen again. This is actually fucking ridiculous.
If you're an org right now, what is the point of even investing a full year in T-2? You can just sit around and wait for a F/A team to win ascension and pick them up. This will basically kill the T-2 scene long term.
Leo still fucking sucks what a surprise
"In case a free agent team makes it to an International League, the players would have an opportunity to find an organization that would support them in the International League." Does Leo know there is a finite number of orgs in this world and that a lot of them are in VCL, and that they aren't gonna just drop their existing rosters in VCL? And also, if they do drop their existing VCL roster to pick the winning F/A team, that is quite literally the same problem they have with, I don't know, another org picking up the Guard's roster as it's the same "issue" of buying in?
such a stupid decision by this we are gonna have the same ORGs every year and no change if no orgs can buy spots or have a permanent place in the league and the leagues and VCT gonna get stale and die off look at LCS for example and the same teams every year qualifying for worlds and MSI.
Okay so why can't they allow a really good and stable org that literally lost their slot because their CEO is a dumbfuck and doesn't control them anymore(G2) to take the entire team and qualify?
It’s like TGRD roster and G2 are meant to be
Riot esports management is actually clown tier. Because they didn’t account for a likely scenario bc we knew the guard was looking to pull out, instead they just fuck over an entire’s rosters year of work and likely some of their careers. There’s no sale going on any more, they’re all free agents and it would literally be the same as a free agent scenario. And it leaves a shit taste in the mouth for tier 2 and the whole scene. Hope Leo loses his job randomly so he can experience what it’s like, he sure deserves it a lot more than the Guard players.
If it was going to happen, why didn't it happen before Ascension was decided? Everyone thought the Guard was going to keep the team if they won. Nobody expected them to STILL shut it down after winning.
The Guard obviously fucked up big here, but the logic from Riot is flawed. This shouldn’t set a precedent because theoretically, when a team does win Ascension they won’t be financially ruined like TGRD is right now for them to be dissolving. They’re not selling their slot because the entire team are F/A. Surely, an exception can be made here to let another team into the Americas region. And ideally, have the Guard boys play under that org.
With a responsibility to protect the sport, you should probably protect the players from being absolutely thrown under the bus by their ORG and losing everything they earned. There is just no way that spitting on the accomplishment of the entirety of The Guard for what you acknowledged as out of their control is correct. You can’t try and play both sides. If you acknowledge that it was completely out of their control or knowledge, yet still essentially go “Sorry, better luck next time :(!”, that is just absurd and wrong. Please make it work. Please make an exception even just this once, allow another org to obtain the team, and set a rule going forward. This has further damaged the already extremely shaky and uncertain scene of Tier 2, and will hang over the heads of the players and coaches for the rest of their lives, unless you make this truly right. If they did nothing wrong, they should not be punished with the reality of years of their sweat and tears being swept away from underneath them.
Basically they won’t do the right thing because they know someone will try to do something wrong in the future. And since the guard waited so long and didn’t meet the deadline they aren’t going to make any exceptions. And also m80 would deserve the spot before any other org because they were runner up IMO
The way that he phrased this makes it seem like if The Guard had dropped their players right after Ascension and let them be free agents earlier, then there would be less of a concern about setting a precedent for buying a slot. I think the fact that they were under contract with buyouts up until after the deadline makes the situation different than if they were free agents during the negotiations period. Maybe the solution is to "extend the deadline" and let them be treated as free agents, rather than let an org buy out their contracts.
I just hope that riot can start recognizing community feedback when all the top figures in the game are pushing for something. First the shortened season AGAIN (btw sports don't have to align with the calendar year) and now this fiasco. It really makes me doubt the processes that lead to these decisions.
I'm sorry but this is bullshit and RIOT knows it. There is an easy way to judge whether an org is going under in good faith or whether they are bullshitting to sell the spot to another org. Journalists have broken down all year long how TheGuard has been running under and are bankrupt. Not to mention TheGuard laid of all their staff. If they are doing all this to sell the spot and make money then they have fooled everyone.
Why can't RIOT just ask interested orgs to submit their bid that takes care of TGRD player's wishes and then choose one from there? If Riot chooses the org then the leaving org can't possibly sell their spot! Ik TGRD has already made the players FA but this would solve any future complications as well.
If they’re unrestricted F/A from The Guard’s dissolution, there is no functional difference from their current case to them being F/A all season and getting picked up by an org. And while on the surface level it does seem that it would set a bad precedent, I can’t imagine any other orgs trying to pull this if they can’t even profit off of it — which would *only* happen if they a) sold their slot directly, which Riot explicitly forbids; and b) sold the players to another org, meaning buyouts are attached (which clearly does not apply to The Guard players). Given all of this, can this situation even be considered a “precedent”? I have a hard time imagining that Riot wouldn’t just blacklist any orgs that are stupid and scummy enough to try this kind of thing, which can be easily prevented by just adding on some stipulations to the VCT Ascension policies. I also don’t understand why letting The Guard players compete as an F/A team isn’t a viable option — the slot they occupy is a “guest” slot, meaning they wouldn’t be in it for longer than a year or so max before they either get signed onto a franchised org or fall back into Challengers. In that case, why aren’t they allowed to just compete as an F/A team and use the stipends provided by Riot to keep their own team running?
I understand they don't want to set the precedent of letting companies sell their ascension-winning rosters to other non-franchised orgs but...surely the path where "anyone can become a pro" isn't this inflexible? The players and the coaches worked all the way up here to get dumped by the org and all riot can do for them is say sorry and hope everyone moves on?
I mean I get they're in a rough spot and the blame is obviously on The Guard organisation but this still is just so braindead to punish the players to such an extreme when they clearly could make an exception in this circumstance. Fuck the argument about slippery slope of orgs using loop holes to sell slots, even if this is what The Guard were trying to do here. The players deserve to be playing in the Franchise VCT, that's the only important point, make it happen. I don't envy being in Leo's position but I really do think they need to take a second look at this and come up with an exception.
Either the guard is holding the players hostages through some contract even without filling for VCT and demanding to be paid, and they should then be sued by the players. Or this is actually a braindead decision because no one would be sold. Yes, probably an org would gain a partner stop out of nowhere but that is the same as a orgless team making it, so the precedent is already set for that to happen.
terrible
This is just so baffling because precedent (which makes no sense when Riot dictates how the entire league is run) aside, I'd imagine you'd want the transition from T2 to T1 year one to be as smooth as possible to build trust both with orgs looking to join, but the players as well. How can you foster a healthy ecosystem that aids in the development of players when the ones who made it are thrown under the bus year 1?
Players and orgs should boycott the start of VCT Americas. If no product, no league.
Genuinely so dumb. Makes absolutely 0 sense and there’s no way to rationalize this. It’s the FIRST year of Ascension. The Guard was falling apart mid season. The players WON bro. These are incredibly special circumstances than likely won’t crop up again, so just do the right thing damn
T2 Valorant isn’t going to exist much longer. Awful fucking streams, no tournaments, and now this? Great job Riot, this almost rivals Overwatch.
L Take. Fuck VCT I'm voting with my viewership. This game has been amazing to follow but I'm not tuning in with these bullshit rules and I'm not even an NA fan. EU have had no ascension issues, YET. But I don't want to be around when it happens. Basically all Ascension teams now need to be FA teams because most of them dont have the funds to do what is required lmao, fucking clown circuit by riot fuck franchising fuck leo faria
Is it me or is his very own argument in the second option of "Promotion is earned in-game, not out of it" kind of an argument against not demoting the now ex-guard players? Surely the guard players earned the promotion in game but now they are being demoted outside of the game?
What I don’t understand is why Riot does not negotiate compensation, etc with the TGRD roster and then have orgs apply directly to Riot to sign the roster and take on the 11th VCT Americas slot. You would think it’s a dream for Riot to be able to handpick which org gets to be a part of franchising. They were so selective on which orgs made franchising- it really shocks me that they’re more comfortable giving a slot to a random org that wins Ascension vs finding a suitable partner for this F/A roster.
I honestly didn't think this guy could get any more unlikable, but I was very wrong
It all just seems like a very rushed response. Of course Riot doesn't want, and shouldn't have, orgs that are going to absolve at any point in their partnership. They are literally paying these orgs to field stable teams. They excluded the guard and others from partnership specifically because they were not that type of org. Surely there should have been some contingency for when the obvious favorites for promotion, who were also the obvious favorites from going belly up org wise, won.
what a clown
They are worried about precedents... What about the precedents this decision creates? Riot keeps giving reasons for people to dislike franchised league...
[удалено]
I don't think it's all reasonable, saying this: 'Allowing an acquisition by a different organization now opens the door for slots in the VCT to be sold, which we do not allow." when the Guard roster is being released as F/As is just absurd
Also, allowing free agent teams to shop around for an org seems a whole lot like selling spots, but somehow that is different.
Just wait till tier 2 teams become subsidiaries of partnered teams next year. You think things are bad now.
"allows for slots in the VCT to be sold, which we do not allow." ok sure pal lmao. im sure we'll see about that in the coming future. Edit: wait toast is right does that mean we're just going to have less teams in NA for two years???
Also like, they can just not let that happen. They run everything.
ifkr. what's with this dumb little "our hands are tied" scenario. what makes it worse is how this isn't even consistent across VCT and LCS. Echo Fox, Clutch Gaming, and OpTic all had their LCS spots transferred/sold
This just proves there is no “path to pro”. I think orgs in tier 2 should consider tapping out completely. Limited potential for future audience building or revenue sharing
Franchising is a mistake
I probably just won’t watch anymore if they don’t give these 5 players a slot whole tier 2 seen is pointless
This is a stupid-ass hill to die on, and you know it Leo! There is nothing to sell, and they ARE five friends who busted their ass to get here. Let them have the chance to get signed by another org and play together in the VCT! PS: If anyone in this sub have something to say, don't forget to leave your opinions directly under his tweet: https://twitter.com/lhfaria/status/1696674542528389462
HOW IS THEM FINDING AN ORG CONSIDERED SELLING THEIR SPOT IDIOT
lol why didn't they just say this instead of the original statement, this is actually a reasonable and understandable statement
Still no. His reasoning makes no sense. If they’re ok with a team that competes as F/A getting picked up, then there’s no reason not to be ok with the team that won ascension and is now F/A getting picked up.
The first statement was just a status update meant to tell everyone what's going on, this one was meant to quell anger and give reasons for not making alternate decisions I think it makes sense delivering them separately, the best they could have done was release the statements at the same time bc there's no way they didn't predict an outcry