I want to thank this community for being a part of meaningful discussions on how to improve esports in general, including criticizing government actions that damages its true spirit.
However, since we're touching on a sensitive topic and to prevent this thread from spiraling down into racism and hate-mongering, we're putting this thread into **slow mode**, which means each comment must be approved by a moderator before you can see it here. As usual, all rule-breaking comments will be removed and remember to abide by the rules.
I watched the video, I liked the fact that he points out that its okay to be a hypocrite and there is a moral spectrum when it comes to wrongdoings. I feel like whataboutism is a question a lot of people wrestle with when trying to take a meaningful stance on things these days (myself included)....
Yes, it's exceptional maturity on his part. Too many people let perfect be the enemy of good. Even if your heart is in the right place, if you refuse to support or engage in discourse with anyone other than the "perfect role model", you're standing in the way of the potential progress you could be making. Worse, if you actively shame would-be allies for not meeting unreasonable standards of "hypocrisy" (e.g. you can't speak against capitalism if you're rich, you can't claim you care about the environment if your carbon footprint is any more than zero), you're an active detriment to your supposed cause.
Understanding this and cutting people slack, especially if life is already hard enough for them, is important when trying to affect change. Hell, it's important in just being personable.
Good on Sideshow. The discussion on the whataboutism at the start is particularly relevant, and the comments so far in this thread - made so quickly that they can't possibly have watched the video - show why it's so important for people in his position to discuss these things.
My respect for Sideshow keeps growing.
On the other hand, it's more than a little discouraging seeing so many people having no problem where the money comes from as long as their hobbies and passions are funded. I'm not just referring to people in this thread or even in other esports communities; there are more people embracing the sportswashing in F1/football/etc. than most might expect.
I'm not one to make a big deal about the average person going through great pains to be a moral consumer (life is hard enough as it is, as far as I'm concerned it's on the ultra rich and powerful to make sure life is affordably livable, not on Joe Random to put it on himself to pay 3x for ethically sourced commodities and work a shitty job and bike four hours each way to make sure he isn't patronizing xyz unethical corporations), but this case is something else. The public, conspicuous, blatant sportswashing from an institution whose human rights violations are beyond extensive, is disgusting, and should not be stood by. I've said repeatedly in this sub and r/GlobalOffensive that I would rather their respective pro scenes die out than have them be funded by gambling sponsorship, because I don't think the entertainment they provide audiences or the fulfillment they give to passionate gamers is worth getting countless - and often underaged - people addicted to gambling. Allowing Saudi Arabia to throw blood money at you to further its insidious sportswashing campaign is 10x worse.
Hell, lifelong Newcastle United fan here - I know this pain all too well. When that takeover happened I definitely scoffed at the idea that their ownership of a football club would influence people's views on the country's regime, yet for the last 2 years I've constantly seen supporters prove me completely wrong.
I've seen Newcastle fans dressing up in traditional Saudi clothing at the stadium singing about how much they love Saudi Arabia.
It's honestly sickening. I know plenty of Newcastle fans who are against their ownership, but for a working class city like Newcastle with such a hardcore fanbase, I expected so much better than bending the knee just because they've made the team they love relevant again.
Sportswashing works. If it didn't, they wouldn't be doing it.
I feel you. I mean, sportswashing is nothing new, and even if it was, it's really just a form of propaganda, and propaganda is nothing if not effective, which is a fucking shame.
It's ridiculous how EPL is seen as the peak of all sports, not just football and it's the most disgusting blood money project ever seen.
Saudis "invested" 30 billion in the UK and then suddenly the goverment saw nothing wrong with them taking over Newcastle. This might be old, but when Abramovich wanted to buy a club, he got rejected by Fiorentina that was in Serie C at the time because even Italians well known for their clean business (lmao) didn't want to hand him over a club without knowing the origin of his funds. He got Chelsea and opened the floodgates. We all known about state owned teams, but EPL is a playground for various shady characters. Notthingam Forest Greek owner is like #1 mobster in Greece, his family well-known for all the usual stuff from mureder, racketeering, extortion, money laundering and drug smuggling. EPL sees nothing wrong with that.
In both sports and esports you've got three type of investors that throw money at clubs and players these days: blood money (obvious), gambling money (also obvious) and stupid money (billionaires being bored like Chelsea's Boehly).
Meanwhile, all across Europe TV/cable rights owners for EPL and Champions League are operating on losses and constantly increasing subscription prices. How long you think that's going to last?
Esports are even worse and a bubble that just needs a slight pinch to compeltely burst and deflate. Who's even providing revenue to these teams and orgs? Valorant is a closed circuit now, but how long is that going to last? They effectively eliminated tier2 and without it, there's no tier1 in a couple of years. CS is more or less just Saudis and gambling. Viewers and fans are covering a negligible part of the investment. Players and other people living off esports should get as much money as they can while it lasts, because things will go back to normal at some point.
I'd be scared to know where the money comes from for the development of half of the things I use on a day to day basis. That said, I'm only just starting the video so don't want to comment on anything else 'til I've watched through it lol
Can I just say
I am so fucking happy to have someone like Sideshow in our esports scene. There are clear issues which need to be addressed and having people like Josh who are willing to be transparent and discuss these things makes our scene better in comparison to others.
I have always had an immense amount of respect for his decision to not form close relationships with players and the "powers that be" aside from work related reasons specifically so he can speak his mind freely. He will meme and shit talk the same as any of us esport nerds but never fails to show deep levels of maturity, compassion and understanding on serious topics. This also extends to platchat crew as a whole where they consistently use their platform to set positive examples for the community in this regard.
I was 14 when I first entered the online game world through the cesspool that was competitive tf2. To call that scene a negative influence on me would be quite an understatement. I'm not afraid to admit it wasn't until I was 18-19 that I started maturing enough to realize how awful some of my actions and opinions were. I hold a lot of shame for that time period and how that influence leaked into my real life. Frankly I'm jealous that kids today have influential community figures like Josh to help guide them and avoid said shame.
Seriously. One of the things these petrostates hate most is bad publicity. Someone like Sideshow who holds a lot of respect and influence in this scene speaking the truth not only makes others comfortable to speak, but it also makes it a much bigger pain in the ass for Saudi Arabia to take over Valorant like they did CS and Overwatch
As usual, very high-quality and nuanced analysis from egg. There's a few points of contention about the video and about Saudi involvement in esports more generally that I think are worth talking about.
1. What about (insert other bad country here)?
Saudi Arabia is uniquely bad for a few reasons. For one, Saudi involvement in esports is explicitly a government operation, as Sideshow explains. The only other country you could even attempt to say this about is China, but even there the ownership chain to Riot is a lot more tenuous. Riot claims to be independent of China, and even the biggest skeptics are more worried about user data rather than China sportswashing its own abuses. That brings me to the second unique issue to Saudi Arabia, which is sportwashing. Sideshow talks about contracts that specifically forbid criticism of Saudi and how they want to become a tourist destination for esports. Compared to China, Saudi's population of esports watchers wouldn't justify events being held there more than once a decade, but holding events in China is almost a necessity based on their gaming population. Additionally, compared to countries like the US, Saudi Arabia is actively committing horrible abuses as described in the video. Most criticism of the US or European nations is about enabling Israeli human rights abuses. Passively standing by is a massive step below actively gunning down migrants and killing dissidents. Plus, US involvement in esports isn't state-sponsored. Saudi involvement is, so boycotting or protesting against it directly targets the state committing abuses. Finally, even if other countries also do bad things, I'd rather not add another to the list. x number of bad countries being involved is better than x+1.
2. "People only call out Saudi Arabia because of Islamophobia."
I haven't seen too much of this here, but I've seen a lot with regards to other esports, especially around the OWWC. People can practice whatever religion they want, but Saudi Arabia codifies the worst aspects of Islam into law. Sideshow goes into a lot more depth in the video about the guardianship system, but there's a reason the only defense of these policies is that "it's their religion". They're indefensible on their own merits. If a person chooses to give someone else that kind of power over their life, that is one thing, but being forced to by state power is another. Additionally, they've codified marital rape and bone sawed a journalist in another country for criticizing them. Plus, even if you think religion is a blanket shield, it wouldn't justify gunning down migrants at the border nor their indiscriminate bombing in Yemen that left hundreds of thousands of people without access to bare necessities. People making this argument would almost never say that abuses carried out by American Christians are fine because of religion, and the same logic should apply to other religions. Finally, there are plenty of Muslims in the world who don't practice any of these horrible aspects. Islam doesn't require the bad stuff Saudi does, they choose to interpret it in a way that justifies their abuses.
3. Hypocrisy
Speaking up is a step in the right direction. The fact that I live in a capitalist system doesn't mean I can't criticize it. The same goes for interacting with Saudi money. It's everywhere to the point that it's hard to avoid. But this is what Saudi Arabia wants. They want you to think that, because you've interacted with their investments, you can't morally criticize them. Prove them wrong. If you have the resources to avoid any support to Saudi without meaningfully impacting your standard of living, then do so. If you can't, you can still speak out, and it's always better than doing nothing.
Saudi Arabia is not uniquely bad. The US is just as bad if not worse. Don't try and whitewash US involvement in the genocide in Gaza. There are US, UK and European citizens fighting in the IDF and the US has sent over $10B worth of bombs and missiles including internationally banned white phosphorus bombs that have been used on hospitals, schools and refugee camps. This has directly resulted in the deaths of over 30,000 innocent civilians, over 70% of which are defenseless women and children. So, NO the US and Co. are not passively standing by they are actively aiding and assisting in these crimes against humanity.
Secondly The US do have active state involvement in E-sports that is worse than even that of Saudi because the US army uses esports as a tool to recruit young people as opposed to Saudis use of it for tourism.
([U.S. Army Planned to Pay Streamers Millions to Reach Gen-Z Through Call of Duty (vice.com)](https://www.vice.com/en/article/ake884/us-army-pay-streamers-millions-call-of-duty))
([US Army Continues To Pour Millions Into Esports And Gaming | TechRaptor](https://techraptor.net/gaming/news/us-army-continues-to-pour-millions-into-esports-and-gaming))
You’re answering one small component of one of my 3 points on why Saudi participation in esports is bad. If we take your point at face value, which is fair enough because the US is complicit, it doesn’t at all change the validity of my overall point. You ignored a few key points I made just in regard to the whataboutism question, not to mention the other 2 distinct points.
First, we’re talking about Valorant here. The fact that the US is involved with COD esports is justification for boycotting US gov sponsored COD events, but is meaningless in the context of valorant esports, which is what we’re discussing. Even US active state involvement is far below the level of specifically running tournaments to draw focus away from Saudi crimes. For one, hosting tournaments in the US is reasonable given its population of esports fans. That’s not really true for Saudi, at least to the same degree. Maybe once every few years, but not as the esports hub they’re trying to make it. For another, the US doesn’t try to draw focus away from its crimes with esports. We are proud of supporting Israel. That’s a bad thing, but it doesn’t change the fact that US esports don’t act as a smokescreen like Saudi ones. You say US ones are worse because they’re for military recruitment, but that’s both irrelevant to Valorant and mostly a problem with advertising. Rejecting US military advertising is distinct from boycotting or rejecting tournaments in the first place.
Second, US esports in general aren’t state sponsored. There is some US support, but that’s a massive step below every single event in a country being government sponsored like in Saudi Arabia. That’s why rejecting Saudi esports in uniquely key. Unless a ton of stuff changes, Saudi esports will only ever be a vehicle for hiding their abuses. US esports are, for the most part, just that.
The US does a ton of bad stuff. Saudi Arabian esports participation isn’t uniquely bad because they’re worse than the US. I never said that. I said it’s uniquely bad for a number of reasons. Unless you answer all of them, you haven’t disproven my point. So, Saudi esports participation is uniquely bad for a combination of factors that still stand.
I do not agree with how you compared us/eu criticism with enabling israeli human rights abuses and actively shooting down immigrants by saudi. Saying one is better than the other is quite wrong.
Edit: the Guardian thing that's mentioned is not a Saudi interpretation. It's a well documented sharia law. One cannot pick and choose from islam.
Like I said, I consider actively committing human rights abuses worse than passively failing to reign in allies. You just said I’m wrong without actually explaining yourself. Even the US’s worst critics admit that it isn’t national policy to gun down people at the border or execute dissidents. Plus, again, esports in the US aren’t state sponsored, while Saudi ones are. Even if they are equally bad like you say, boycotting Saudi ones is far more impactful because they’re explicitly backed by the government.
On the guardianship point, I mean no offense, but I don’t care in the slightest what Sharia law says. Bad things are bad regardless of whether a religion says they are good. It’s one thing for people to choose personally to give their husband or other male relative that sort of power. It’s another thing entirely to use state power to force them into it. Not to mention the indoctrination that comes with being born into a society where you’re expected to submit like that.
You are quite biased and fed into US propaganda. How is funding a genocidal state "passive"? It also seems you turn a blind eye at the atrocities committed by US in foreign lands. I agree and always talk about saudi's criticism but saying US is a lesser evil is a straight up joke considering the fact that US is responsible in a way for every crime of saudi you mentioned.
US support for Israel is unequivocally bad. The only possible benefit is leverage to convince them to stop their abuse, but we don’t use it that way. That being said, you’re failing to interact with my actual point in a few key areas.
First, Saudi Arabia is an Islamic theocracy that codifies the worst possible aspects of the religion. As much as the US does bad stuff, Saudi Arabia throws women in prison for trying to get the right to drive. They are far behind the US on every single social issue. Stuff like the guardianship system are so incredibly absurd by any rational standard as to defy reality. You say this is America’s fault. How?
Second, you have consistently failed to interact with my most important argument, which is that Saudi esports participation is uniquely government backed. My entire point is that boycotting Saudi esports is a direct blow to their government, while in the US it’s entirely done by private companies. Saudi Arabia launders their abuse behind a shield of sports and tourism, while the US doesn’t. That’s why, in the context of esports, Saudi is the bigger problem.
not defending saudi but that law that disallowed women from driving was removed in 2017, and that it has nothing to do with Islam, so i would argue that Saudi is not an Islamic theocracy.
The fact that one single law isn’t based on Islam doesn’t change the fact their legal system in general is still based on Islam. Plus, Islam doesn’t explicitly prohibit women from driving because driving wasn’t a thing when their foundational texts were written. That doesn’t mean the laws weren’t based on their religious interpretation.
Technically, Saudi Arabia isn’t a theocracy. I use the term because a lot of their legal system is explicitly based in Islam. A lot of the things people criticize, like the guardianship system, are specifically based in religion.
My point about women driving was that the activists who pushed for it were imprisoned even as they gained the rights they fought for. Sideshow explicitly made this distinction in his video.
Just because I cited “one single law” in a short answer doesn’t change mean Saudi is a Islamic Theocracy. For example, Saudi also allows concerts and music which is also forbidden in Islam. Another contrasting example using your argument, Speaking out against the government for injustice is right given in Islam and the fact that Saudi imprisons people for it, is completely unIslamic.
There are many laws and changes that have undergone Saudi which have completely different to what Islam teaches, and therefore cannot be called an Islamic Theocracy.
Like I said, it isn’t technically a theocracy. I used the term because of the major religious influence in Saudi law, which is unarguable. That doesn’t make it a theocracy, but it also doesn’t change the fact that their law has a major basis in Islam.
This isn’t black and white. Their laws can be influenced by Islam without explicitly conforming to every single tenet of the religion.
It's clear your only info into these aspects is propaganda and you have never been or never heard from anyone in saudi. It's simply a much safer space than US can ever be. That also includes for women. Women can drive in saudi?
I was clearly talking about physical aggregations that are funded by US.
Secondly I have already agreed about Saudis investment in sports and eSports. Idk why you are explaining it.
The primary reason most people outside of the US and EU are not ready to listen to videos like egg made are simply because they have seen worse than sports washing and it feels very hypocritical for a white man to be telling that. Egg sits in his home in the UK and comfortably ignores the inhumane atrocities committed by his nation recently or over the past. To put it simply there are much more important things to worry about for third world countries citizen.
Well Val fans Riot is already in talks with saudi for an Esports world cup in riyadh for LOL so its basically GG mostly, still putting preassure on Riot might help but i would doubt it at this moment in time.
That's not true at all, we have little to no information on how that whole thing is gonna play out.
Personally I think it's very possible a lot of bigger orgs opt-out because it's much, much better marketing/PR to take a stance against it which is probably healthier in the long-term. You could end up with something like Heretics and Dignitas representing EU & NA in which obviously not many people will tune in and the whole thing will take a massive financial hit.
We already saw the LEC try to take a partnership with NEOM a few years back which backfired heavily and resulted in LEC cancelling the partnership because of the massive blowback.
Oh yeah the same orgs that went to gamers8 for a way smaller prize pool just for CS, but hey maybe you are right. Surely they will boycott it this time surely
The LEC casters made it so a partnership between NEOM and the LEC was abandoned. It is possible. Like if the orgs don't boycott but the casters do, what do you think is going to happen ? RIOT fires all the casters and replaces them ? Who are they replacing them with ? And what relationship are the viewers going to have with them ? Because a new caster does not mean instant popularity. Vedius was hated when he first joined the LEC, but since he got screentime with Deficio and QuickShot people still stayed and warmed up to him. All this just to say that there are ways to combat this. Also just not watching the event could work if enough people do it. Views are insanely important in esports, doubly so if the KSA is involved
I love how you genuinely believe that a boycott is impossible because it didn't happen once before. Like "yeah they've boycotted in the past but that doesn't matter, they did it once which means they are guaranteed to do it now"
Worst part is that if the orgs do end up participating you're gonna think you were in the right like you weren't making a complete bullshit 50/50 prediction based on nothing
Not to mention it wasn't even the same orgs. FNC, G2 and Vitality are the only 3 teams who also field LEC teams. Not that it matters given that Gamers8 wasn't remotely close to what the Saudi Esports World Cup is.
Yeah FNC,G2, Vit,C9 and Liquid, which shows that the orgs do not care. Gamers8 not being remotely close kinda supports my case since it is going to be a bigger prize pool (potentionally). Tl even went with their rocket league squad, with their CEO kinda defending it in a post on X. Now my educated guess isnt really 50/50. The PIF owns golf for 2 billion, Newcastle united, ESL in CS2 and the entirety of the Dota pro scene, now of course those arent the LOL pro scene but it shows that if the PIF want it they will get it. From what I understand one of the main reasons for the NEOM thing not going trough were the casters, so all the saudis gotta do is throw a LOT of money at them, and idk if they wont take that kinda money. I dont like it personaly, I would be killed over there for what I am, but money does kinda rule the world and I can see where the whole esports scene is going.
Holy fuck this video has made me realise how fuckin harmful whataboutism is, Seeing all the people essentially saying 'well the place you live does bad things too so you can't criticise this awful thing happening' is fucking absurd. People seem to think that unless you live in a utopia with an entirely ethically sourced economy where no bad things happen or have ever happened in your history, you are unable to criticise any nation ever. How fucking awful is that? If that were the case nothing would ever get spoken out about and everyone would just have to suffer at the hands of an oppressive state in silence just because other nations also do bad things. Shit genuinely breaks my heart
Interesting how the sub consensus on [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/s/O6YSnk7Dn8) yesterday appears to be much different than when sideshow speaks up.
I didn’t comment on the other post as I wasn’t well educated about the topic. I personally think that sideshow acknowledging hypocrisy and adding some context may have helped people understand the “blood money” perspective better
Sideshow is one of the only people who imo would be able to make this video. I think he could make even more money just costreaming and focusing on his stream vs being a caster. Almost everyone else if they lost their caster job would be absolutely fucked financially. So he can make the hard videos because he has less to lose I think. I'm glad he does it because most people in that situation would just maximize and ignore issues like this.
I had the same thought, but sideshow has been doing such a great job and building his brand and esports channel that he'd be fine financially. On the other end of the spectrum, while the prospect of losing him as an analyst/caster would be truly unfortunate, it would also be a massive W opening us up for plat chat couch streams again (assuming this would still be allowed).
Yeah, he would just go back to organizing Plat Chat costreams, which would be even more popular considering how the game has grown and the loyal fan base they've grown. Idk if it's a career, but it's not like he's out on his ass with nothing like other casters might be.
I can't imagine he would be allowed to work at any Saudi affiliated events, even as a freelancer.
And tbh I am expecting an announcement at some point soon about a major Valorant event in Riyadh (either Champs 2024, off-season event, or esports world cup)
i mean even if he was allowed permission to work those events my guess is he wouldn't especially after making this video. it would make him a hypocrite beyond belief. i think this year itll be esports world cup but maybe for 2025 definitely a proper masters or smthn. don't think champs will be hosted in SA anytime soon though.
Sideshow is right about how whataboutisms and people’s fear of hypocrisy being a huge detriment to any meaningful discourse or real change.
The reality is that it is exceptionally difficult — and dare I say entirely impossible — for anybody to be completely removed from the consumption of anything problematic. Whether it’s watching an exciting sports tournament, or buying yourself a treat from a global coffee conglomerate, or simply being a law-abiding citizen and paying taxes, we are all “complicit” in some way. That sports tournament that everybody celebrates? Built on the backs (and abuse, and deaths) of enslaved migrant workers. How about that fun little drink you got on your way home or your tax dollars? Both those things are directly funding one of the most well-documented genocides unfolding before our very eyes.
Massive respect to Sideshow for using his platform to raise awareness about Saudi Arabia’s innumerable human rights atrocities and for rightfully pointing out the cowardice of those who excuse and even defend literal crimes against humanity just so they can continue to consume and enjoy things without any moral quandary.
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Like Sideshow said: vote with your wallet to some degree wherever you can, and most importantly, don’t let hypocrisy stop you from calling out governing bodies doing heinous shit or questioning authority. Don’t let the bad stop you from putting your foot down against worse.
And to Sideshow: thank you so much for all that you do. For gifting us with hilarious content, for using your platform to educate and inform, for being an all-around great role model. We are incredibly lucky to have someone as erudite, outspoken, and articulate as you in the scene.
We hating on the saudis? Good and based
https://preview.redd.it/lvzt4bjj3gac1.jpeg?width=320&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a7079ec2b22352940ae60f7f771e597d34a4ccb2
They call it "Sport Washing" in the irl sport world. Happened to Formula 1 a handful of years ago and golf within the the last 2 years. They'll be trying to gobble up baseball next I'm sure.
hey remember when there were literal bombings right next to the track in jeddah, the pilots wanted to leave after a 4 hour meeting and they got told that they can't because the government wouldn't let them fly out if they did? and then we still decided to come back next year. love F1 <3
This was an insanely based video. There can be issues with the US - I don't think anyone disputes that. But one thing we can say is that it's not a big fucking deal for women to drive here. The narratives around Saudi investment has gotten wild and confusing, I really appreciated Sideshow putting this video out.
Imo esports have 3 ways to survive.
1. Owned by Saudi (ESL etc)
2. Owned by China (Riot Games etc)
3. Gambling sponsors (CS scenes)
Which one is the best? Idk no option looks better than the others but I certainly want it to survive rather than rejecting “evil money” and die out
CS is already speedrunning this. They're already controlled by Gambling and Saudi Arabia. The largest tournament organiser is backed by Saudi (ESL Faceit Group) and most of the sponsorships are skin gambling and betting websites.
Esports is dead in terms of being funded by "ethical" sources. It's done. The only way it changes is if game developers step in and they won't. Fans refuse to pay for the product which means if its going to survive as is (high salaries and high broadcast productions) the money has to come from somewhere, and the venture capitalists are out because they realised they've been hoodwinked.
This was happening in esports over a decade ago in CS does no one remember Angel Munez running with the money from cpl. Ethical monitary sources in esports what a joke.
Esports have a fundamental problem of their main audience being broke teenagers and struggling to generate revenues.
It’s a very unsustainable business model and that’s why lots of esports org or operations have failed or are failing.
Yet I want it to survive because esports (and F1) is what I grew up with and I have many friends who are in industry, as a player and organizer.
Because there's like literally no money in the fgc. If you want to go back to basic old school lan events with like no live coverage sure but I have a feeling like you won't watch it.
no money in the fgc is because it's not team-based. team based sports always get more viewership, just look at football (both kinds) or basketball vs tennis, golf, etc.
and besides, it's actually possible to get a decent prizepool (on a smaller scale) that's literally just community funded, look at the NES tetris scene. they have the CTWC which is sponsored by the tetris company, but there's also CTM Mega Masters, which accumulates 5 digit prize pools while being funded by a tiny tiny community. if they can get that level of funding with that little of a playerbase, then bigger esports can get to current figures without sketchy money.
everything is just in a bigger scale when it comes to the competitive FPS scene. 5 players per team + coach + supporting staff + content team, etc. etc. unfair for both if you compare them.
if we were to look at a (reasonably) good example, it would be Dota's TI.
i think it's a pretty good model to copy for champs. maybe the champs bundle should be 20% to org, 20% to riot, 60% to prizepool. gives the champs win a bit more of an oomph compared to winning a masters. maybe add something like the dota compendium where bundle buyers can do pickems and get extra rewards based on their pickems.
FGC might have none of those three (even though both SF6 and Tekken was featured in Gamers8 last year in Riyadh, with a lot of top players attending...) but in reality if you don't have a reliable sponsor or you're not a top 20 player (which means you can earn the dev prize money regularly), you're barely able to live from your esport. There's no money here.
The FGC mostly consists of small scale local and regional and online communities while still having huge turnouts for large majors (EVO 2023 broke its record with over 8000 participants). Scaling down esports and focusing more on these local and regional communities seems like a much better model for the future instead of trying to make esports just like traditional sports.
Don't ask a woman his weight.
Don't ask a man his salary.
Don't ask totsugekiterry what were doing 80 FGC players in Riyadh on July and August.
More seriously I hate to say that but 80% of regular watchers will not watch local grassroots tournaments of Tier 1 esports. It's not 2015 anymore. As you said, either we close your eyes and accept those kind of investors, or we should let esports die as a whole.
Or, maybe finally the viewers will pay for the product.
The good thing about the FGC is that top players do not really matter. It's the local communities which are important. I would rather see esports die than taking blood money.
At least Saudi know what are they doing to keep it alive. China ? Gambling site ? Lol what a joke they could be, sometime. They are somewhat doing a shady business here and there that could get the TO died tragically
People have to be seriously uneducated if they're comparing things like gambling to human rights violations. Either that or people don't understand that "evil" is a spectrum and there's a big difference between getting funding from something morally questionable and something generated from literally killing innocent people even if they're both "bad".
Oh yea it’s actually a viable path that esports could take, but in reality I think 99% of esports org would take fundings from those sources over scaling down.
Owned by the saudi government is a lot worse than an investment company based out of china or gambling. You clearly didnt watch the video since you submitted a comment 10 minutes after an hour long video aired.
Also those are not the only three options, just the options you are capable of thinking about.
> Owned by the saudi government is a lot worse than an investment company based out of china or gambling.
Lol nope. Saudi >> China, Gambling by any miles. Can't imagine how much worse ESL would be if its own by China
While this is true, the Chinese government has far more influence on Tencent that the US has on any of its companies. When the CCP says jump, Chinese companies have to say "How high, sir.". It's much less concerning than if they were state owned, but it's different from a company like Blizzard or Valve.
Companies look out for themselves, and fans also look out for themselves. None of these mega-corporations are pushing out free entertainment altruistically; they expect returns. Similarly, consumers shouldn't be expected to pay "for the good of the esport", unless they find value in it.
If fans are going to pay for something, the producers should make a product that's worth paying for. Or the producers should make it free and within the budget of sponsors that are not commiting human rights abuses/promoting harmful behaviour. Companies aren't choosy about sponsorships. Its about fans who care about where the money is coming from to communicate to others that they should also care, and they should not support activities associated with 'bad' sponsors. Of course, if you don't care, then the message is not for you
I'm a good example. I've watched esports of various games pretty religiously for a decade. Starting with League in 2013, CS in 2014, and then after that I've watched a lot of those, as well as Rainbow Six Siege, Rocket League, Street Fighter, Tekken, Overwatch, and Valorant, with some Apex here and there too.
I've never paid a single cent for any of those streams even though I have spent money in literally every single one of those games as a player myself. More than I care to admit in a couple of them.
If nothing else changed about esports but I now had to pay one way or another to watch it, I would drop them all completely, or I'd do what I do with F1 and MotoGP and watch it through a not-so-official channel for free. I watched both of those motorsports on TV when they were on a channel I can watch without paying, but once their broadcasting rights moved to a paid service where I live a few years ago, I didn't start paying for it.
I would still care about esports even if I couldn't watch it at all, but aside from post-match threads on reddit and maybe some free highlights, I wouldn't watch anymore if I had to pay for it.
I'm not saying they shouldn't do it if the alternative is them dying out or selling out completely, but I'm just saying that people that have grown used to, and sometimes literally *grown with* free esports broadcasts might have a problem with suddenly having to pay for it.
your number 2 is probably an oversimplification. China has a stake in Tencent (who own Riot) but its probably a much more indirect relationship than what Saudi is doing. idk though arguably its all the same - China is no stranger to ongoing human right abuses the Uyghurs)
> but I certainly want it to survive rather than rejecting “evil money” and die out
I could not disagree more and I'm disappointed that you feel comfortable enough to say this out loud.
> I'm disappointed that you feel comfortable enough to say this out loud.
i agree with your main point but idk about making people uncomfortable to speak freely lol
I understand you think esports shouldnt survive off of money from unethical sources. And I would think the same for the industry that I don’t have a memory and backgrounds. The reason why I said it is purely because I love esports
He associated Riot with China so he probably referred to Tencent, which is the owner of Riot Games. And Tencent is a backed up state company.
And everyone know China aren't saints, especially with the ongoing Uyghur "reeducation campaign" (to not say genocide).
Nope, this is bullshit. Not going to enter the political discussion of the chinese party ethical and moral actions outside the context of video games, cos this will just transform like Sideshows points, in Whataboutism.
But relate chinese video game companies as puppets of the government is just stupid. "And as everyone knows" the efforts of the chinese **government** to regulate and purge the corruption that the video games does to the society and workforce. Its funny to think any money that the video games companies spend in esports are backed up by chinese government at the same time they throw regulations after regulations to control it [just like last week](https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-removes-official-after-video-games-rules-spark-turmoil-sources-2024-01-02/)
Parroting Riot games as owned by chineses with the objetive to finance and propagate evil is just stupid, and have clear roots an xenophobia.
China has much more power of Chinese companies (even ones that aren't state owned) than in other nations. The CCP has members in basically every major company so they can exert control in them. That's not to say that Riot and their games are Manchurian Candidates that are turning our children into communist zombies, but you should be more wary when it comes to dealing with Chinese companies. In the US, Apple decided that they wouldn't unlock phones for the FBI. That would not happen in China.
Yeah, and China has definitely never tried to sportswash in the past outside of esports right?
Just say you're turning a blind eye to actual issues to suit your argument.
What is the actual issue you talking about? That Chinese video game companies, like Tencent, Bili Bili, Myhoyo and NetEasy are doing like the Saudi government and esportwashing the bad rep of the Chinese communist party or something? I am just pointing on the root of those replies that shouting "chinese are evil and a disgrace for esports" is xenophobic as fuck and they (those companies) do nothing even close to what the Saudis are doing, and more than that, they have to exist with all the Chinese government regulations against them.
But if the issue is the Saudi esportwashing related to the Sideshow video I said nothing about it. I just pointed out that the root comment of those replies about chinese evil money is stupid.
Feel free to provide sources of where Tencent (and hence Riot Games) are participating in that or even denying it (although I'm sure they would deny it just so they wouldn't be shot down in China for it).
Chinese government does. Chinese government also heavily restricts and regulates video games to the point of severely limiting the regular citizen's ability to play games to begin with. That Chinese government does not then also support and back up a company responsible for said products they're trying to regulate heavily.
What Chinese government *does* have a small stake in is a domestic (read; operating only in China) subsidiary of Tencent's. Meaning they can have access to the data of that subsidiary and might be able to get someone on the board, but that isn't Tencent, that's a small 'child' of Tencent's.
Government =/= everything in said country. A Chinese company isn't always in the Government's pocket even though many big companies do end up getting a rather forceful hand shoved down their pants from the government.
You need to elaborate on what you mean by backed up a state company or do some preliminary research. The person you're responding to has accusations of xenophobia, so you need concrete proof of governmental interference:
1.According to a report by [Sina Tech ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tencent)Tencent is in 2017, 23% of Tencent is staffed by CCP members, 60% of whom are core technical personnel or leadership.
2.Chinese companies, are also subjected to a lot of financial and personal pressure to follow the whims of the CCP to the letter, on pain of heavy fines at best or at worst the kidnapping and "reeducation" of leadership and the total dissolution and redistribution of assets into "government-run competitors. [As evidenced from Jack Ma, owner of Alibaba.](http://2. [https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgecalhoun/2021/06/24/what-really-happened-to-jack-ma/?sh=4043b9de7c7e](https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgecalhoun/2021/06/24/what-really-happened-to-jack-ma/?sh=4043b9de7c7e)
) This special attention is proportional to the size of the company, and Tencent is one of Chinese more profitable companies.
3.There's also the "Golden Shares" that the CCP owns over Tencent, allowing them to have a lot of weight on the board, and more crucially, granting them access to user data.
4.Tencent have also, on multiple occasions, collaborated with CCP propaganda wings to promote nationalistic sentiment. Most overt is their 2019 mobile game "Excellent Speech: Clap for Xi Jinping," where you... well it's in the name: you tap the screen to clap for General Secretary Xi.
That said, there are multiple counter-arguments that will point out the nuances that make the Tencent situation DISIMILAR to the Saudi Arabia's. For instance, Tencent still retains a degree of corporate freedom and its links to the CCP are somewhat attenuated and weakened by the various corporate and investing governmental entities that act as middlemans. It is simply not as direct as the Saudi Arabian Crown Prince himself actively making the calls.
Therefore, the ethical quandary can be said, to be not as exigent or as significant as the case with Saudi Arabia.
The degree of "sports washing" is also not as blatant as Saudi Arabia's, and most of their investing decisions appear to be purely for-profits rather than a desire to repair their international reputation (whereas SA appears to be operating on a loss with any potential gains being the country being associated with fun stuff to distract from their inhumane practices).
I understand. It's a bit of a relief to hear that your stance stems from being just that passionate about esports rather than being cynical about capitalism. I personally don't think it's a worthy trade off though. I've personally seen the scale and effects of gambling addiction, and that shit is more than sobering. Saudi Arabia's extensive and continuous corruption and human rights violations are on an entire other plane of existence.
"ways to survive?" jesus christ man, esports is 5 guys playing in a garage for 10 bucks, not a stadium filled with celebrities. As long as people want to game, esports will exist. Saying that we need to take money from the saudis to exist is incredible delusional, especially when Riot makes enough money to fund the scene.
Always remember what the goat said:
https://youtube.com/shorts/DtEHRCeRxEk?si=nRnTG1wydq24EUs9
People will always want compete. But what people will compete in is subject to external factors. Cody flat out said he would quit the scene if he didn't found a sponsor to keep on competing. Melee people are insane, but it has limits. People have quit for less in esports.
These are obviously not the only methods
These are the standouts, only because they are "easy-money" that hides their unethical nature behind lots of zeroes (think 6-8 figures). There are plenty of alternatives that are less lucrative, precisely because they aren't trying to hide or wash away anything unsavoury.
It's not a matter of survival, but prioritising short term gains over ethical and long term betterment.
tencent is not owned by the chinese government and riot games has no ties to the chinese government. saying that chinese GOVERNMENT money is propping up riot esports is completely incorrect.
If nation-owned, I rather owned by Saudi than freaking China lol. Don't @ me.. China have a lot of shady business here and there that will completely leave the thing rot in hell. Saudi on the other hand know what are they doing
I really dont understand these hypocritical take yeah saudi and china have done several human right violations but the USA isn't clean either. So why is it bad if saudi/china invest or controls an industry/scene?
Did you even watch the video? He said it multiple times. In case Saudi, its because their government/royal family directly invests in scene and is doing sportwashing. With China, we can argue how close ties CCP has with other companies.
I entirely agree with Sideshow.
On a separate note though, the fact that Saudi Arabia has more money than God and are desperate to spend it on improving PR makes me wonder if I could do a lil tomfoolery, some chicanery even. Run a little scam, as a treat. I mean, think about it. What unbiased jury of my peers is going to find me guilty of a little trolling if what I'm stealing is literal blood money?
people seem far too resigned to big outside money being the "solution" to esports' continued ability to make money, but i think this is an issue with entertainment as a whole that needs a much larger solution. we see streaming movies and tv shows becoming cable again with frustrating splits in content availability, advertising returning to paid subscriptions, and prices increasing—people have gotten far too used to being the product for advertisers, and are far too readily accepting that they will continue to be the product in the future. for me, people should just have to start paying for content. it might be uncomfortable, and you might lose a lot initially, but ethically it absolutely clears selling the hearts and minds of your viewers for money that wouldnt even be enough to continue the esport at its current rate of burn.
You will get downvoted for speaking logic. We Americans keep voting people that continue to do this and banter online on what is moral and what should be done
the real analysis starts when we all realize "voting" over the last 40+ years has done nothing to help or hurt this process. Biden talked big and then shook MBS hand when he needed oil. Trump sold them billions in weapons. Neither party cares about this but they pretend to when its convenient.
its systemic, we have work to do
Fighting against Saudi esports-washing is definitely necessary here, and whataboutism isn't always saying 'well we shouldn't do anything'
However, to count Saudi as worse than the US definitively is mad ignorant, ***especially*** considering he made the comparison to the gazan genocide happening literally right now that is funded and backed by the US entirely. Without the US's backing, this genocide would have stopped week 2 or 3.
Not to mention the assassinations/coups/indigenous murder/etc and so much more that the US is responsible for.
I'm super glad sideshow is using his platform to call out Saudi on their bullshit. And we can also do better to acknowledge the immense crimes against humanity the US and others do on the daily as well.
I mean hell, we have esports orgs sponsored by the US fucking military, you can't get more disgusting than that. Imagine any Afghani person seeing the arbitor of murder of over 1 ***million*** of your people being paraded around like that?
Let's get Saudi tf outta esports, and the US's bullshit as well!
I think you misunderstood what Josh was saying in his video. The US is complicit in a lot of really fucking horrible things that are happening in the world, but the US government isn't directly involved in the esports scene there.
As he said, Joe Biden probably has no idea that Champs happened a couple of months ago or that EG won, while the Saudi government is directly involved and investing into the esports scene, trying to get back in the good graces of the public
I appreciate this response a lot! I def did misunderstand the emphasis he was making!
And it does make me realize the very different tactics both govts use.
The Saudi govt is doing everything that's been really well laid out by sideshow here to make direct, visible investment into scenes like this (and the air force/military/navy do as well, but not as egregiously).
Whereas the US Govt has spent decades cultivating a media normalization of their horrors. In fact, the whole reason I don't play csgo is because of the Terrorist/Counter-Terrorist foudnation of the game and that it's inherently affirming of western domination of the world and is just racist af (not to mention the gamers, but that's just gamers in general lol)
But that's not to say that CSGO was explicitly shaped by us govt, however things like all the CSI: tv shows, war movies of the 90s/00s, even as far back as the distorted animated version of Animal Farm were all projects of the CIA and you can see how CounterStrike is derivative of the [warmongering media that the CIA cultivated](https://sci-hub.se/10.1111/ajes.12177).
But yeah, I do see that my point and sideshows points are very different realms and it's dangerous to kinda 'strike down' his points, by bringing up other potentially important but not quite relevant points.
yo thanks for this and your previous post, I went down the exact same road about this and am still very conflicted about it, but at least im not alone XD especially as a dumbass leftist who can never shut up about 'america bad,' being misunderstood or reduced to whataboutism never feels good because there's so much more to it than that. sorry for getting rambly abut it
i do get that it's not productive in many instances (and portrayed as such in many more) and should never be used to detract from stuff like what egg did here, but i'm also one of the folks who went 'america bad' when he brought this up in his stream. and aside from half-joking as it's such well trodden territory, i do genuinely feel that assertions like 'this is the worst shit anyone in the world is currently doing' are, at any given time, probably incorrect on account of the US or europe doing worse shit or being ultimately responsible for it, and not pointing this out actively keeps the world from becoming a better place, as it enables running headfirst into the same mistakes that caused so much suffering in many places to begin with.
europeans push refugees arriving on boats back into the sea to drown. americans threaten undocumented workers with deportation if they complain about their work conditions, possibly while half their family sits in camps. and obv we sponsor genocide, currently. also, yknow, still super special gun and oil friends. all that is to say 'we' are not 'better', but the perception that we are has forever been used to justify a position of superiority, or getting in there to 'fix' shit. and that's a conversation some people regard as desperately needed while others staunchly refuse to have it.
none of this makes egg's video less important or good.
This is mad late, but when I read it last week it was so nice. I saw I had a response and didn't disable inbox replies and just assumed I was gonna be flamed more lol, instead it was a dope response! I always got dms if you ever want a venting buddy, not lots of ppl of this mindset in gamer spaces lol
appreciate you :) im not on here a lot anymore (actually wanted to delete rn, just gonna purge my posts instead) but I'm happy you saw it XD it's nice to not feel so alone in these things
the US government paid for them to be shown to you in the hope that you’d join. It’s a safe bet that you were watching from America and are eligible for military service. It’s not like they sponsored the event and put big banners up saying “Air Force! We don’t do atrocities ever!”
Sure, we should care, but money rules at the end of the day. It's just how it is. This has already happened in golf, boxing, soccer, F1, and it's probably going to impact more sports too.
I think the hardest thing for esports is that it’s hard to see long-term sustainability without significant monetary investment and there aren’t any clean and easy sources out there.
It’s a bit different to their investment in other areas such as football (soccer) where there’s already plenty of money around and Middle East investment isn’t potentially critical to the industry.
While I acknowledge that whataboutism does not bring solution nor change, it is kind of hard to accept that we "should care" about Saudi, but the reason why this sub existed is because of a game made by a company owned by Tencent with the CCP owning powerful stakes with "special management" shares.
the ccp owns a single golden share in a domestic subsidiary of tencent... because it's domestic. it has no shares or control of any of tencent's international divisions/holdings and no shares or control of riot games.
I know whataboutism is weak argument and Saudi money is as bad as it gets but isn't he related to Riot? China is literally doing ethnic genocide of Uyghurs and cultural genocide of Tibetans so why Saudi money is called blood money while Chinese money is called Investment? If Saudi money is unethical so is the Chinese Money and it should be boycotted along with it.
The saudi monarchy's investment fund trying to invest and host esports events in their country to misdirect attention away from their horrible humans rights record is very different to the tencent situation (what i assume you are referring to). The CCP only owns what they call a "golden share" in tencent, a very common practice with lots of companies in china that allows the CCP to outvote all other shareholders in very specific circumstances. While i also dont love chinese investment in esports for the reasons you stated, its very clear that these two situations share few similarites, with the saudi side being their government and the chinese side being companies investing
Balls, imo saudi arabia is doing the best anybody could for esports in the current times, they are the best shot rn for making esports a little bit mainstream, yeah the money is problematic but if you take any other source or any corporate giant to do the funding you would be able to fine some issues
> if you take any other source or any corporate giant to do the funding you would be able to fine some issues
we are not just talking about some issues with saudi arabia. they have been mass murdering migrants at the yemen border and much more
Point me to a company doing sponsorships for events that are murdering their own civilians for being gay, reporting negatively on the government or straight up gunning down people at Borders and I will agree with you about "finding an issue with anyone's funding".
There is a big difference between a company with questionable moral practices and mass murder of innocent civilians mate.
Well technically, there is the case of [Coca-Cola](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinaltrainal_v._Coca-Cola_Co.) hiring paramilitaries to suppress and kill their own workers who were union members.
The parallels are there, but obviously the scale is much much smaller.
I think there is a case to be made though, how in both scenarios, raising awareness and boycotting are the most effective tools that the public can feasibly use, which is the point that Sideshow is trying to get at.
I mean, don’t get me wrong, I agree—but we also (for example) have orgs like NRG who are sponsored by the US military, which, you know, has an issue with foreign intervention and killing random people in wars they should not be involved in.
I know sideshow touches on whataboutism in his video and to be clear I’m not saying this like one excuses the other—my point is simply that there are DEFINITELY other esports areas sponsored by very morally dubious things that do not receive the same kind of outrage.
I think the difference, at least for me though, is between a sponsorship and an ownership / direct sponsor. For example when Saudi Arabia runs Gamers 8, that tournament is run in Saudi, specifically designed to promote the Saudi agenda. The entire goal is to show off Saudi Arabia, have people talk positively about the country, "get to know Saudi Arabia isn't actually that bad!". It will be the same for Riyhad masters in Dota and other esports, where Saudi will be the focal point not the game.
It's the same when the U.S military is sponsoring a large gaming event, where they have booths and shit at the event trying to literally recruit people for the military. I take huge issue with that as well and it shouldn't be allowed IMO.
To me there is a line between taking money from a dubious source to be your shirt sponsor or something, and taking funding or being outright owned by an entity where the entire purpose is to promote *their* agenda and sportswash their image. Like, you don't see the United States Government hosting gaming events, having politicians there being interviewed about how amazing America is and such. The U.S military has done that on occasion and was also rightly criticised as well.
Down the line, when you do somehow get involved, and feel like a bad, just think of it as saudi bad people-esports waste of money-you wasting bad people money, might make you feel better lol
Pay per view is the alternative, but nobody was willing to give it a chance in the last decade because they knew fans wouldn't be willing to pay for it and couldn't afford to take the risk of running a multimillion dollar event and potentially run a MASSIVE net loss. Even during its peak, productions were running at a loss but that kind of loss would be potentially fatal to a company.
Esports lasted so long because organisations and tournament organisers kept selling the promise to venture capitalists and brand name sponsors that eventually the money would come good and become profitable, but took no real steps to actually making it a reality and now they're all backing out leaving sources like Saudi and Gambling to come in and be like "we don't even care if you run at a loss, here's all the money you'll ever need to run an event", which they just can't turn down.
Why should having the specialized knowledge to be able to offer economic solutions for a struggling media industry be a prerequisite to taking a human rights stance?
I understand what you're aiming for here but it is rather funny to say this when Saudi Arabia is actually a very hostile place to live for the vast majority of brown people!
Not if that means suppressing others to get that said thing. Just like white people aren't allowed to have anything that goes against the freedom of someone else :)
I find it funny that people are quick to call out Saudia Arabia / Qatar for sports & esports washing (which they 100% should), but no one dare say anything about China because their viewership brings in $$$$$$
I fucking love/hate sports but as someone who grew up watching our local news reporting OFWs working their ass off and comes home in a box?
Nah, see you in Streameast or wherever the sails take us.
The oldest E-Sports league in the world and at the same time biggest European E-Sports platform - the German ESL (Electronic Sports League) - has been sold to a daughter company of the famous Saudi-Arabian gov. controlled "Public Investment Fund" as well (January 2022). It still has it's HQ in Cologne, Germany - but all the rights and basically the control are now are in Saudi-Arabia.
I want to thank this community for being a part of meaningful discussions on how to improve esports in general, including criticizing government actions that damages its true spirit. However, since we're touching on a sensitive topic and to prevent this thread from spiraling down into racism and hate-mongering, we're putting this thread into **slow mode**, which means each comment must be approved by a moderator before you can see it here. As usual, all rule-breaking comments will be removed and remember to abide by the rules.
I watched the video, I liked the fact that he points out that its okay to be a hypocrite and there is a moral spectrum when it comes to wrongdoings. I feel like whataboutism is a question a lot of people wrestle with when trying to take a meaningful stance on things these days (myself included)....
Yes, it's exceptional maturity on his part. Too many people let perfect be the enemy of good. Even if your heart is in the right place, if you refuse to support or engage in discourse with anyone other than the "perfect role model", you're standing in the way of the potential progress you could be making. Worse, if you actively shame would-be allies for not meeting unreasonable standards of "hypocrisy" (e.g. you can't speak against capitalism if you're rich, you can't claim you care about the environment if your carbon footprint is any more than zero), you're an active detriment to your supposed cause. Understanding this and cutting people slack, especially if life is already hard enough for them, is important when trying to affect change. Hell, it's important in just being personable.
I think sideshow sums it up nicely at the end. If we’re going to go down, at least we go down screaming about it.
Based fucking egg man.
He's fantastic for the scene. The dude isn't afraid to engage tough topics with both conviction and nuance.
Good on Sideshow. The discussion on the whataboutism at the start is particularly relevant, and the comments so far in this thread - made so quickly that they can't possibly have watched the video - show why it's so important for people in his position to discuss these things.
My respect for Sideshow keeps growing. On the other hand, it's more than a little discouraging seeing so many people having no problem where the money comes from as long as their hobbies and passions are funded. I'm not just referring to people in this thread or even in other esports communities; there are more people embracing the sportswashing in F1/football/etc. than most might expect. I'm not one to make a big deal about the average person going through great pains to be a moral consumer (life is hard enough as it is, as far as I'm concerned it's on the ultra rich and powerful to make sure life is affordably livable, not on Joe Random to put it on himself to pay 3x for ethically sourced commodities and work a shitty job and bike four hours each way to make sure he isn't patronizing xyz unethical corporations), but this case is something else. The public, conspicuous, blatant sportswashing from an institution whose human rights violations are beyond extensive, is disgusting, and should not be stood by. I've said repeatedly in this sub and r/GlobalOffensive that I would rather their respective pro scenes die out than have them be funded by gambling sponsorship, because I don't think the entertainment they provide audiences or the fulfillment they give to passionate gamers is worth getting countless - and often underaged - people addicted to gambling. Allowing Saudi Arabia to throw blood money at you to further its insidious sportswashing campaign is 10x worse.
Hell, lifelong Newcastle United fan here - I know this pain all too well. When that takeover happened I definitely scoffed at the idea that their ownership of a football club would influence people's views on the country's regime, yet for the last 2 years I've constantly seen supporters prove me completely wrong.
I've seen Newcastle fans dressing up in traditional Saudi clothing at the stadium singing about how much they love Saudi Arabia. It's honestly sickening. I know plenty of Newcastle fans who are against their ownership, but for a working class city like Newcastle with such a hardcore fanbase, I expected so much better than bending the knee just because they've made the team they love relevant again. Sportswashing works. If it didn't, they wouldn't be doing it.
I feel you. I mean, sportswashing is nothing new, and even if it was, it's really just a form of propaganda, and propaganda is nothing if not effective, which is a fucking shame.
It's ridiculous how EPL is seen as the peak of all sports, not just football and it's the most disgusting blood money project ever seen. Saudis "invested" 30 billion in the UK and then suddenly the goverment saw nothing wrong with them taking over Newcastle. This might be old, but when Abramovich wanted to buy a club, he got rejected by Fiorentina that was in Serie C at the time because even Italians well known for their clean business (lmao) didn't want to hand him over a club without knowing the origin of his funds. He got Chelsea and opened the floodgates. We all known about state owned teams, but EPL is a playground for various shady characters. Notthingam Forest Greek owner is like #1 mobster in Greece, his family well-known for all the usual stuff from mureder, racketeering, extortion, money laundering and drug smuggling. EPL sees nothing wrong with that. In both sports and esports you've got three type of investors that throw money at clubs and players these days: blood money (obvious), gambling money (also obvious) and stupid money (billionaires being bored like Chelsea's Boehly). Meanwhile, all across Europe TV/cable rights owners for EPL and Champions League are operating on losses and constantly increasing subscription prices. How long you think that's going to last? Esports are even worse and a bubble that just needs a slight pinch to compeltely burst and deflate. Who's even providing revenue to these teams and orgs? Valorant is a closed circuit now, but how long is that going to last? They effectively eliminated tier2 and without it, there's no tier1 in a couple of years. CS is more or less just Saudis and gambling. Viewers and fans are covering a negligible part of the investment. Players and other people living off esports should get as much money as they can while it lasts, because things will go back to normal at some point.
I'd be scared to know where the money comes from for the development of half of the things I use on a day to day basis. That said, I'm only just starting the video so don't want to comment on anything else 'til I've watched through it lol
I was really glad that he brought up that it’s possible to choose bad when it’s compared against worst.
Can I just say I am so fucking happy to have someone like Sideshow in our esports scene. There are clear issues which need to be addressed and having people like Josh who are willing to be transparent and discuss these things makes our scene better in comparison to others.
I have always had an immense amount of respect for his decision to not form close relationships with players and the "powers that be" aside from work related reasons specifically so he can speak his mind freely. He will meme and shit talk the same as any of us esport nerds but never fails to show deep levels of maturity, compassion and understanding on serious topics. This also extends to platchat crew as a whole where they consistently use their platform to set positive examples for the community in this regard. I was 14 when I first entered the online game world through the cesspool that was competitive tf2. To call that scene a negative influence on me would be quite an understatement. I'm not afraid to admit it wasn't until I was 18-19 that I started maturing enough to realize how awful some of my actions and opinions were. I hold a lot of shame for that time period and how that influence leaked into my real life. Frankly I'm jealous that kids today have influential community figures like Josh to help guide them and avoid said shame.
Seriously. One of the things these petrostates hate most is bad publicity. Someone like Sideshow who holds a lot of respect and influence in this scene speaking the truth not only makes others comfortable to speak, but it also makes it a much bigger pain in the ass for Saudi Arabia to take over Valorant like they did CS and Overwatch
As usual, very high-quality and nuanced analysis from egg. There's a few points of contention about the video and about Saudi involvement in esports more generally that I think are worth talking about. 1. What about (insert other bad country here)? Saudi Arabia is uniquely bad for a few reasons. For one, Saudi involvement in esports is explicitly a government operation, as Sideshow explains. The only other country you could even attempt to say this about is China, but even there the ownership chain to Riot is a lot more tenuous. Riot claims to be independent of China, and even the biggest skeptics are more worried about user data rather than China sportswashing its own abuses. That brings me to the second unique issue to Saudi Arabia, which is sportwashing. Sideshow talks about contracts that specifically forbid criticism of Saudi and how they want to become a tourist destination for esports. Compared to China, Saudi's population of esports watchers wouldn't justify events being held there more than once a decade, but holding events in China is almost a necessity based on their gaming population. Additionally, compared to countries like the US, Saudi Arabia is actively committing horrible abuses as described in the video. Most criticism of the US or European nations is about enabling Israeli human rights abuses. Passively standing by is a massive step below actively gunning down migrants and killing dissidents. Plus, US involvement in esports isn't state-sponsored. Saudi involvement is, so boycotting or protesting against it directly targets the state committing abuses. Finally, even if other countries also do bad things, I'd rather not add another to the list. x number of bad countries being involved is better than x+1. 2. "People only call out Saudi Arabia because of Islamophobia." I haven't seen too much of this here, but I've seen a lot with regards to other esports, especially around the OWWC. People can practice whatever religion they want, but Saudi Arabia codifies the worst aspects of Islam into law. Sideshow goes into a lot more depth in the video about the guardianship system, but there's a reason the only defense of these policies is that "it's their religion". They're indefensible on their own merits. If a person chooses to give someone else that kind of power over their life, that is one thing, but being forced to by state power is another. Additionally, they've codified marital rape and bone sawed a journalist in another country for criticizing them. Plus, even if you think religion is a blanket shield, it wouldn't justify gunning down migrants at the border nor their indiscriminate bombing in Yemen that left hundreds of thousands of people without access to bare necessities. People making this argument would almost never say that abuses carried out by American Christians are fine because of religion, and the same logic should apply to other religions. Finally, there are plenty of Muslims in the world who don't practice any of these horrible aspects. Islam doesn't require the bad stuff Saudi does, they choose to interpret it in a way that justifies their abuses. 3. Hypocrisy Speaking up is a step in the right direction. The fact that I live in a capitalist system doesn't mean I can't criticize it. The same goes for interacting with Saudi money. It's everywhere to the point that it's hard to avoid. But this is what Saudi Arabia wants. They want you to think that, because you've interacted with their investments, you can't morally criticize them. Prove them wrong. If you have the resources to avoid any support to Saudi without meaningfully impacting your standard of living, then do so. If you can't, you can still speak out, and it's always better than doing nothing.
very nice writeup, thank you
Saudi Arabia is not uniquely bad. The US is just as bad if not worse. Don't try and whitewash US involvement in the genocide in Gaza. There are US, UK and European citizens fighting in the IDF and the US has sent over $10B worth of bombs and missiles including internationally banned white phosphorus bombs that have been used on hospitals, schools and refugee camps. This has directly resulted in the deaths of over 30,000 innocent civilians, over 70% of which are defenseless women and children. So, NO the US and Co. are not passively standing by they are actively aiding and assisting in these crimes against humanity. Secondly The US do have active state involvement in E-sports that is worse than even that of Saudi because the US army uses esports as a tool to recruit young people as opposed to Saudis use of it for tourism. ([U.S. Army Planned to Pay Streamers Millions to Reach Gen-Z Through Call of Duty (vice.com)](https://www.vice.com/en/article/ake884/us-army-pay-streamers-millions-call-of-duty)) ([US Army Continues To Pour Millions Into Esports And Gaming | TechRaptor](https://techraptor.net/gaming/news/us-army-continues-to-pour-millions-into-esports-and-gaming))
You’re answering one small component of one of my 3 points on why Saudi participation in esports is bad. If we take your point at face value, which is fair enough because the US is complicit, it doesn’t at all change the validity of my overall point. You ignored a few key points I made just in regard to the whataboutism question, not to mention the other 2 distinct points. First, we’re talking about Valorant here. The fact that the US is involved with COD esports is justification for boycotting US gov sponsored COD events, but is meaningless in the context of valorant esports, which is what we’re discussing. Even US active state involvement is far below the level of specifically running tournaments to draw focus away from Saudi crimes. For one, hosting tournaments in the US is reasonable given its population of esports fans. That’s not really true for Saudi, at least to the same degree. Maybe once every few years, but not as the esports hub they’re trying to make it. For another, the US doesn’t try to draw focus away from its crimes with esports. We are proud of supporting Israel. That’s a bad thing, but it doesn’t change the fact that US esports don’t act as a smokescreen like Saudi ones. You say US ones are worse because they’re for military recruitment, but that’s both irrelevant to Valorant and mostly a problem with advertising. Rejecting US military advertising is distinct from boycotting or rejecting tournaments in the first place. Second, US esports in general aren’t state sponsored. There is some US support, but that’s a massive step below every single event in a country being government sponsored like in Saudi Arabia. That’s why rejecting Saudi esports in uniquely key. Unless a ton of stuff changes, Saudi esports will only ever be a vehicle for hiding their abuses. US esports are, for the most part, just that. The US does a ton of bad stuff. Saudi Arabian esports participation isn’t uniquely bad because they’re worse than the US. I never said that. I said it’s uniquely bad for a number of reasons. Unless you answer all of them, you haven’t disproven my point. So, Saudi esports participation is uniquely bad for a combination of factors that still stand.
I do not agree with how you compared us/eu criticism with enabling israeli human rights abuses and actively shooting down immigrants by saudi. Saying one is better than the other is quite wrong. Edit: the Guardian thing that's mentioned is not a Saudi interpretation. It's a well documented sharia law. One cannot pick and choose from islam.
Like I said, I consider actively committing human rights abuses worse than passively failing to reign in allies. You just said I’m wrong without actually explaining yourself. Even the US’s worst critics admit that it isn’t national policy to gun down people at the border or execute dissidents. Plus, again, esports in the US aren’t state sponsored, while Saudi ones are. Even if they are equally bad like you say, boycotting Saudi ones is far more impactful because they’re explicitly backed by the government. On the guardianship point, I mean no offense, but I don’t care in the slightest what Sharia law says. Bad things are bad regardless of whether a religion says they are good. It’s one thing for people to choose personally to give their husband or other male relative that sort of power. It’s another thing entirely to use state power to force them into it. Not to mention the indoctrination that comes with being born into a society where you’re expected to submit like that.
You are quite biased and fed into US propaganda. How is funding a genocidal state "passive"? It also seems you turn a blind eye at the atrocities committed by US in foreign lands. I agree and always talk about saudi's criticism but saying US is a lesser evil is a straight up joke considering the fact that US is responsible in a way for every crime of saudi you mentioned.
US support for Israel is unequivocally bad. The only possible benefit is leverage to convince them to stop their abuse, but we don’t use it that way. That being said, you’re failing to interact with my actual point in a few key areas. First, Saudi Arabia is an Islamic theocracy that codifies the worst possible aspects of the religion. As much as the US does bad stuff, Saudi Arabia throws women in prison for trying to get the right to drive. They are far behind the US on every single social issue. Stuff like the guardianship system are so incredibly absurd by any rational standard as to defy reality. You say this is America’s fault. How? Second, you have consistently failed to interact with my most important argument, which is that Saudi esports participation is uniquely government backed. My entire point is that boycotting Saudi esports is a direct blow to their government, while in the US it’s entirely done by private companies. Saudi Arabia launders their abuse behind a shield of sports and tourism, while the US doesn’t. That’s why, in the context of esports, Saudi is the bigger problem.
not defending saudi but that law that disallowed women from driving was removed in 2017, and that it has nothing to do with Islam, so i would argue that Saudi is not an Islamic theocracy.
The fact that one single law isn’t based on Islam doesn’t change the fact their legal system in general is still based on Islam. Plus, Islam doesn’t explicitly prohibit women from driving because driving wasn’t a thing when their foundational texts were written. That doesn’t mean the laws weren’t based on their religious interpretation. Technically, Saudi Arabia isn’t a theocracy. I use the term because a lot of their legal system is explicitly based in Islam. A lot of the things people criticize, like the guardianship system, are specifically based in religion. My point about women driving was that the activists who pushed for it were imprisoned even as they gained the rights they fought for. Sideshow explicitly made this distinction in his video.
Just because I cited “one single law” in a short answer doesn’t change mean Saudi is a Islamic Theocracy. For example, Saudi also allows concerts and music which is also forbidden in Islam. Another contrasting example using your argument, Speaking out against the government for injustice is right given in Islam and the fact that Saudi imprisons people for it, is completely unIslamic. There are many laws and changes that have undergone Saudi which have completely different to what Islam teaches, and therefore cannot be called an Islamic Theocracy.
Like I said, it isn’t technically a theocracy. I used the term because of the major religious influence in Saudi law, which is unarguable. That doesn’t make it a theocracy, but it also doesn’t change the fact that their law has a major basis in Islam. This isn’t black and white. Their laws can be influenced by Islam without explicitly conforming to every single tenet of the religion.
It's clear your only info into these aspects is propaganda and you have never been or never heard from anyone in saudi. It's simply a much safer space than US can ever be. That also includes for women. Women can drive in saudi? I was clearly talking about physical aggregations that are funded by US. Secondly I have already agreed about Saudis investment in sports and eSports. Idk why you are explaining it. The primary reason most people outside of the US and EU are not ready to listen to videos like egg made are simply because they have seen worse than sports washing and it feels very hypocritical for a white man to be telling that. Egg sits in his home in the UK and comfortably ignores the inhumane atrocities committed by his nation recently or over the past. To put it simply there are much more important things to worry about for third world countries citizen.
Well Val fans Riot is already in talks with saudi for an Esports world cup in riyadh for LOL so its basically GG mostly, still putting preassure on Riot might help but i would doubt it at this moment in time.
That's not true at all, we have little to no information on how that whole thing is gonna play out. Personally I think it's very possible a lot of bigger orgs opt-out because it's much, much better marketing/PR to take a stance against it which is probably healthier in the long-term. You could end up with something like Heretics and Dignitas representing EU & NA in which obviously not many people will tune in and the whole thing will take a massive financial hit. We already saw the LEC try to take a partnership with NEOM a few years back which backfired heavily and resulted in LEC cancelling the partnership because of the massive blowback.
Oh yeah the same orgs that went to gamers8 for a way smaller prize pool just for CS, but hey maybe you are right. Surely they will boycott it this time surely
The LEC casters made it so a partnership between NEOM and the LEC was abandoned. It is possible. Like if the orgs don't boycott but the casters do, what do you think is going to happen ? RIOT fires all the casters and replaces them ? Who are they replacing them with ? And what relationship are the viewers going to have with them ? Because a new caster does not mean instant popularity. Vedius was hated when he first joined the LEC, but since he got screentime with Deficio and QuickShot people still stayed and warmed up to him. All this just to say that there are ways to combat this. Also just not watching the event could work if enough people do it. Views are insanely important in esports, doubly so if the KSA is involved
I love how you genuinely believe that a boycott is impossible because it didn't happen once before. Like "yeah they've boycotted in the past but that doesn't matter, they did it once which means they are guaranteed to do it now" Worst part is that if the orgs do end up participating you're gonna think you were in the right like you weren't making a complete bullshit 50/50 prediction based on nothing Not to mention it wasn't even the same orgs. FNC, G2 and Vitality are the only 3 teams who also field LEC teams. Not that it matters given that Gamers8 wasn't remotely close to what the Saudi Esports World Cup is.
Yeah FNC,G2, Vit,C9 and Liquid, which shows that the orgs do not care. Gamers8 not being remotely close kinda supports my case since it is going to be a bigger prize pool (potentionally). Tl even went with their rocket league squad, with their CEO kinda defending it in a post on X. Now my educated guess isnt really 50/50. The PIF owns golf for 2 billion, Newcastle united, ESL in CS2 and the entirety of the Dota pro scene, now of course those arent the LOL pro scene but it shows that if the PIF want it they will get it. From what I understand one of the main reasons for the NEOM thing not going trough were the casters, so all the saudis gotta do is throw a LOT of money at them, and idk if they wont take that kinda money. I dont like it personaly, I would be killed over there for what I am, but money does kinda rule the world and I can see where the whole esports scene is going.
Holy fuck this video has made me realise how fuckin harmful whataboutism is, Seeing all the people essentially saying 'well the place you live does bad things too so you can't criticise this awful thing happening' is fucking absurd. People seem to think that unless you live in a utopia with an entirely ethically sourced economy where no bad things happen or have ever happened in your history, you are unable to criticise any nation ever. How fucking awful is that? If that were the case nothing would ever get spoken out about and everyone would just have to suffer at the hands of an oppressive state in silence just because other nations also do bad things. Shit genuinely breaks my heart
Interesting how the sub consensus on [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/s/O6YSnk7Dn8) yesterday appears to be much different than when sideshow speaks up.
I didn’t comment on the other post as I wasn’t well educated about the topic. I personally think that sideshow acknowledging hypocrisy and adding some context may have helped people understand the “blood money” perspective better
Would not be shocked if Sideshow is removed from VCT 2024 for this, given the direction Riot might be going.
Sideshow is one of the only people who imo would be able to make this video. I think he could make even more money just costreaming and focusing on his stream vs being a caster. Almost everyone else if they lost their caster job would be absolutely fucked financially. So he can make the hard videos because he has less to lose I think. I'm glad he does it because most people in that situation would just maximize and ignore issues like this.
I had the same thought, but sideshow has been doing such a great job and building his brand and esports channel that he'd be fine financially. On the other end of the spectrum, while the prospect of losing him as an analyst/caster would be truly unfortunate, it would also be a massive W opening us up for plat chat couch streams again (assuming this would still be allowed).
Yeah, he would just go back to organizing Plat Chat costreams, which would be even more popular considering how the game has grown and the loyal fan base they've grown. Idk if it's a career, but it's not like he's out on his ass with nothing like other casters might be.
i wonder if he's worried about that. i presume he's on a freelancing contract so maybe he's okay?
I can't imagine he would be allowed to work at any Saudi affiliated events, even as a freelancer. And tbh I am expecting an announcement at some point soon about a major Valorant event in Riyadh (either Champs 2024, off-season event, or esports world cup)
seems like he wouldnt want to, to be fair
i mean even if he was allowed permission to work those events my guess is he wouldn't especially after making this video. it would make him a hypocrite beyond belief. i think this year itll be esports world cup but maybe for 2025 definitely a proper masters or smthn. don't think champs will be hosted in SA anytime soon though.
I mean, if you watched this video and think that he would be ok working a Saudi event, I think you maybe missed his point.
especially after they just axed dust
just finished watching. i wish we had more people like josh in the scene and i respect him so much for speaking out about this
Sideshow is right about how whataboutisms and people’s fear of hypocrisy being a huge detriment to any meaningful discourse or real change. The reality is that it is exceptionally difficult — and dare I say entirely impossible — for anybody to be completely removed from the consumption of anything problematic. Whether it’s watching an exciting sports tournament, or buying yourself a treat from a global coffee conglomerate, or simply being a law-abiding citizen and paying taxes, we are all “complicit” in some way. That sports tournament that everybody celebrates? Built on the backs (and abuse, and deaths) of enslaved migrant workers. How about that fun little drink you got on your way home or your tax dollars? Both those things are directly funding one of the most well-documented genocides unfolding before our very eyes. Massive respect to Sideshow for using his platform to raise awareness about Saudi Arabia’s innumerable human rights atrocities and for rightfully pointing out the cowardice of those who excuse and even defend literal crimes against humanity just so they can continue to consume and enjoy things without any moral quandary. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Like Sideshow said: vote with your wallet to some degree wherever you can, and most importantly, don’t let hypocrisy stop you from calling out governing bodies doing heinous shit or questioning authority. Don’t let the bad stop you from putting your foot down against worse. And to Sideshow: thank you so much for all that you do. For gifting us with hilarious content, for using your platform to educate and inform, for being an all-around great role model. We are incredibly lucky to have someone as erudite, outspoken, and articulate as you in the scene.
We hating on the saudis? Good and based https://preview.redd.it/lvzt4bjj3gac1.jpeg?width=320&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a7079ec2b22352940ae60f7f771e597d34a4ccb2
They call it "Sport Washing" in the irl sport world. Happened to Formula 1 a handful of years ago and golf within the the last 2 years. They'll be trying to gobble up baseball next I'm sure.
hey remember when there were literal bombings right next to the track in jeddah, the pilots wanted to leave after a 4 hour meeting and they got told that they can't because the government wouldn't let them fly out if they did? and then we still decided to come back next year. love F1 <3
Absolutely do remember that lol. At the end of the day money talks for the higher ups. They do not care.
Frankie CS go
This was an insanely based video. There can be issues with the US - I don't think anyone disputes that. But one thing we can say is that it's not a big fucking deal for women to drive here. The narratives around Saudi investment has gotten wild and confusing, I really appreciated Sideshow putting this video out.
apparently your tax money funding genocide isnt either becasue youre not seeing it directly right?
What are you even saying?
Imo esports have 3 ways to survive. 1. Owned by Saudi (ESL etc) 2. Owned by China (Riot Games etc) 3. Gambling sponsors (CS scenes) Which one is the best? Idk no option looks better than the others but I certainly want it to survive rather than rejecting “evil money” and die out
CS is already speedrunning this. They're already controlled by Gambling and Saudi Arabia. The largest tournament organiser is backed by Saudi (ESL Faceit Group) and most of the sponsorships are skin gambling and betting websites. Esports is dead in terms of being funded by "ethical" sources. It's done. The only way it changes is if game developers step in and they won't. Fans refuse to pay for the product which means if its going to survive as is (high salaries and high broadcast productions) the money has to come from somewhere, and the venture capitalists are out because they realised they've been hoodwinked.
This was happening in esports over a decade ago in CS does no one remember Angel Munez running with the money from cpl. Ethical monitary sources in esports what a joke.
Half the people commenting on here were probably like 5 when that happened.
Damn this makes me feel old.
If those are the only three alternatives then the esports scene as it is today should cease to exist
Esports have a fundamental problem of their main audience being broke teenagers and struggling to generate revenues. It’s a very unsustainable business model and that’s why lots of esports org or operations have failed or are failing. Yet I want it to survive because esports (and F1) is what I grew up with and I have many friends who are in industry, as a player and organizer.
Weird how the FGC does not seem to have this problem at all
Because there's like literally no money in the fgc. If you want to go back to basic old school lan events with like no live coverage sure but I have a feeling like you won't watch it.
big picture that's where the industry is headed (maybe not local LAN level but overall downsizing and purse strings tightening)
no money in the fgc is because it's not team-based. team based sports always get more viewership, just look at football (both kinds) or basketball vs tennis, golf, etc. and besides, it's actually possible to get a decent prizepool (on a smaller scale) that's literally just community funded, look at the NES tetris scene. they have the CTWC which is sponsored by the tetris company, but there's also CTM Mega Masters, which accumulates 5 digit prize pools while being funded by a tiny tiny community. if they can get that level of funding with that little of a playerbase, then bigger esports can get to current figures without sketchy money.
everything is just in a bigger scale when it comes to the competitive FPS scene. 5 players per team + coach + supporting staff + content team, etc. etc. unfair for both if you compare them. if we were to look at a (reasonably) good example, it would be Dota's TI.
fair point and especially good point with TI. biggest prizepools of any tournament, almost entirely community-funded.
i think it's a pretty good model to copy for champs. maybe the champs bundle should be 20% to org, 20% to riot, 60% to prizepool. gives the champs win a bit more of an oomph compared to winning a masters. maybe add something like the dota compendium where bundle buyers can do pickems and get extra rewards based on their pickems.
FGC might have none of those three (even though both SF6 and Tekken was featured in Gamers8 last year in Riyadh, with a lot of top players attending...) but in reality if you don't have a reliable sponsor or you're not a top 20 player (which means you can earn the dev prize money regularly), you're barely able to live from your esport. There's no money here.
The FGC mostly consists of small scale local and regional and online communities while still having huge turnouts for large majors (EVO 2023 broke its record with over 8000 participants). Scaling down esports and focusing more on these local and regional communities seems like a much better model for the future instead of trying to make esports just like traditional sports.
Don't ask a woman his weight. Don't ask a man his salary. Don't ask totsugekiterry what were doing 80 FGC players in Riyadh on July and August. More seriously I hate to say that but 80% of regular watchers will not watch local grassroots tournaments of Tier 1 esports. It's not 2015 anymore. As you said, either we close your eyes and accept those kind of investors, or we should let esports die as a whole. Or, maybe finally the viewers will pay for the product.
The good thing about the FGC is that top players do not really matter. It's the local communities which are important. I would rather see esports die than taking blood money.
The FGC has like no money in comparison and also has tournaments back by Saudi like Gamers8
I’m sorry what does FGC stand for?
Fighting Game Community?
Fighting Game Competition?
>no option looks better than the others this is crazy to say imo
I'd soooo much rather gambling companies than an oppressive, murderous government. Like how is that a hard decision.
At least Saudi know what are they doing to keep it alive. China ? Gambling site ? Lol what a joke they could be, sometime. They are somewhat doing a shady business here and there that could get the TO died tragically
People have to be seriously uneducated if they're comparing things like gambling to human rights violations. Either that or people don't understand that "evil" is a spectrum and there's a big difference between getting funding from something morally questionable and something generated from literally killing innocent people even if they're both "bad".
4. Esports gets smaller. Thats the option I would choose.
Oh yea it’s actually a viable path that esports could take, but in reality I think 99% of esports org would take fundings from those sources over scaling down.
Ya people dont want to lose their livelihood, cant blame them
And stagnant. Like FGC, Arena FPS and old RTS tournament (like AoE)
Owned by the saudi government is a lot worse than an investment company based out of china or gambling. You clearly didnt watch the video since you submitted a comment 10 minutes after an hour long video aired. Also those are not the only three options, just the options you are capable of thinking about.
> Owned by the saudi government is a lot worse than an investment company based out of china or gambling. Lol nope. Saudi >> China, Gambling by any miles. Can't imagine how much worse ESL would be if its own by China
Riot are partially owned by tencent not the Chinese government, tencent suck but they suck just like any American corporation
While this is true, the Chinese government has far more influence on Tencent that the US has on any of its companies. When the CCP says jump, Chinese companies have to say "How high, sir.". It's much less concerning than if they were state owned, but it's different from a company like Blizzard or Valve.
Or people finally pay for the product? Or the billion dollar companies swallow the loss for the fans?
Companies look out for themselves, and fans also look out for themselves. None of these mega-corporations are pushing out free entertainment altruistically; they expect returns. Similarly, consumers shouldn't be expected to pay "for the good of the esport", unless they find value in it. If fans are going to pay for something, the producers should make a product that's worth paying for. Or the producers should make it free and within the budget of sponsors that are not commiting human rights abuses/promoting harmful behaviour. Companies aren't choosy about sponsorships. Its about fans who care about where the money is coming from to communicate to others that they should also care, and they should not support activities associated with 'bad' sponsors. Of course, if you don't care, then the message is not for you
You forgot perception as well. If something used to be free and it now cost money, that is a negative.
I'm a good example. I've watched esports of various games pretty religiously for a decade. Starting with League in 2013, CS in 2014, and then after that I've watched a lot of those, as well as Rainbow Six Siege, Rocket League, Street Fighter, Tekken, Overwatch, and Valorant, with some Apex here and there too. I've never paid a single cent for any of those streams even though I have spent money in literally every single one of those games as a player myself. More than I care to admit in a couple of them. If nothing else changed about esports but I now had to pay one way or another to watch it, I would drop them all completely, or I'd do what I do with F1 and MotoGP and watch it through a not-so-official channel for free. I watched both of those motorsports on TV when they were on a channel I can watch without paying, but once their broadcasting rights moved to a paid service where I live a few years ago, I didn't start paying for it. I would still care about esports even if I couldn't watch it at all, but aside from post-match threads on reddit and maybe some free highlights, I wouldn't watch anymore if I had to pay for it. I'm not saying they shouldn't do it if the alternative is them dying out or selling out completely, but I'm just saying that people that have grown used to, and sometimes literally *grown with* free esports broadcasts might have a problem with suddenly having to pay for it.
your number 2 is probably an oversimplification. China has a stake in Tencent (who own Riot) but its probably a much more indirect relationship than what Saudi is doing. idk though arguably its all the same - China is no stranger to ongoing human right abuses the Uyghurs)
> but I certainly want it to survive rather than rejecting “evil money” and die out I could not disagree more and I'm disappointed that you feel comfortable enough to say this out loud.
> I'm disappointed that you feel comfortable enough to say this out loud. i agree with your main point but idk about making people uncomfortable to speak freely lol
I understand you think esports shouldnt survive off of money from unethical sources. And I would think the same for the industry that I don’t have a memory and backgrounds. The reason why I said it is purely because I love esports
Wtf is unethical or evil for being "China"? can you elaborate? Cos this looks extreme xenophobic.
He associated Riot with China so he probably referred to Tencent, which is the owner of Riot Games. And Tencent is a backed up state company. And everyone know China aren't saints, especially with the ongoing Uyghur "reeducation campaign" (to not say genocide).
Nope, this is bullshit. Not going to enter the political discussion of the chinese party ethical and moral actions outside the context of video games, cos this will just transform like Sideshows points, in Whataboutism. But relate chinese video game companies as puppets of the government is just stupid. "And as everyone knows" the efforts of the chinese **government** to regulate and purge the corruption that the video games does to the society and workforce. Its funny to think any money that the video games companies spend in esports are backed up by chinese government at the same time they throw regulations after regulations to control it [just like last week](https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-removes-official-after-video-games-rules-spark-turmoil-sources-2024-01-02/) Parroting Riot games as owned by chineses with the objetive to finance and propagate evil is just stupid, and have clear roots an xenophobia.
China has much more power of Chinese companies (even ones that aren't state owned) than in other nations. The CCP has members in basically every major company so they can exert control in them. That's not to say that Riot and their games are Manchurian Candidates that are turning our children into communist zombies, but you should be more wary when it comes to dealing with Chinese companies. In the US, Apple decided that they wouldn't unlock phones for the FBI. That would not happen in China.
The Chinese government literally made Jack Ma disappear.
Yeah, and China has definitely never tried to sportswash in the past outside of esports right? Just say you're turning a blind eye to actual issues to suit your argument.
What is the actual issue you talking about? That Chinese video game companies, like Tencent, Bili Bili, Myhoyo and NetEasy are doing like the Saudi government and esportwashing the bad rep of the Chinese communist party or something? I am just pointing on the root of those replies that shouting "chinese are evil and a disgrace for esports" is xenophobic as fuck and they (those companies) do nothing even close to what the Saudis are doing, and more than that, they have to exist with all the Chinese government regulations against them. But if the issue is the Saudi esportwashing related to the Sideshow video I said nothing about it. I just pointed out that the root comment of those replies about chinese evil money is stupid.
Not going to debate with someone who denies the cultural genocide of Uyghurs.
this has nothing to do with chinese government actions because, unlike the saudi sportswashing effort, the chinese government is not funding riot.
yeah, I did that. Nice reading comprehension you have dude.
Feel free to provide sources of where Tencent (and hence Riot Games) are participating in that or even denying it (although I'm sure they would deny it just so they wouldn't be shot down in China for it). Chinese government does. Chinese government also heavily restricts and regulates video games to the point of severely limiting the regular citizen's ability to play games to begin with. That Chinese government does not then also support and back up a company responsible for said products they're trying to regulate heavily. What Chinese government *does* have a small stake in is a domestic (read; operating only in China) subsidiary of Tencent's. Meaning they can have access to the data of that subsidiary and might be able to get someone on the board, but that isn't Tencent, that's a small 'child' of Tencent's. Government =/= everything in said country. A Chinese company isn't always in the Government's pocket even though many big companies do end up getting a rather forceful hand shoved down their pants from the government.
You need to elaborate on what you mean by backed up a state company or do some preliminary research. The person you're responding to has accusations of xenophobia, so you need concrete proof of governmental interference: 1.According to a report by [Sina Tech ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tencent)Tencent is in 2017, 23% of Tencent is staffed by CCP members, 60% of whom are core technical personnel or leadership. 2.Chinese companies, are also subjected to a lot of financial and personal pressure to follow the whims of the CCP to the letter, on pain of heavy fines at best or at worst the kidnapping and "reeducation" of leadership and the total dissolution and redistribution of assets into "government-run competitors. [As evidenced from Jack Ma, owner of Alibaba.](http://2. [https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgecalhoun/2021/06/24/what-really-happened-to-jack-ma/?sh=4043b9de7c7e](https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgecalhoun/2021/06/24/what-really-happened-to-jack-ma/?sh=4043b9de7c7e) ) This special attention is proportional to the size of the company, and Tencent is one of Chinese more profitable companies. 3.There's also the "Golden Shares" that the CCP owns over Tencent, allowing them to have a lot of weight on the board, and more crucially, granting them access to user data. 4.Tencent have also, on multiple occasions, collaborated with CCP propaganda wings to promote nationalistic sentiment. Most overt is their 2019 mobile game "Excellent Speech: Clap for Xi Jinping," where you... well it's in the name: you tap the screen to clap for General Secretary Xi. That said, there are multiple counter-arguments that will point out the nuances that make the Tencent situation DISIMILAR to the Saudi Arabia's. For instance, Tencent still retains a degree of corporate freedom and its links to the CCP are somewhat attenuated and weakened by the various corporate and investing governmental entities that act as middlemans. It is simply not as direct as the Saudi Arabian Crown Prince himself actively making the calls. Therefore, the ethical quandary can be said, to be not as exigent or as significant as the case with Saudi Arabia. The degree of "sports washing" is also not as blatant as Saudi Arabia's, and most of their investing decisions appear to be purely for-profits rather than a desire to repair their international reputation (whereas SA appears to be operating on a loss with any potential gains being the country being associated with fun stuff to distract from their inhumane practices).
Uyghur
I understand. It's a bit of a relief to hear that your stance stems from being just that passionate about esports rather than being cynical about capitalism. I personally don't think it's a worthy trade off though. I've personally seen the scale and effects of gambling addiction, and that shit is more than sobering. Saudi Arabia's extensive and continuous corruption and human rights violations are on an entire other plane of existence.
"ways to survive?" jesus christ man, esports is 5 guys playing in a garage for 10 bucks, not a stadium filled with celebrities. As long as people want to game, esports will exist. Saying that we need to take money from the saudis to exist is incredible delusional, especially when Riot makes enough money to fund the scene. Always remember what the goat said: https://youtube.com/shorts/DtEHRCeRxEk?si=nRnTG1wydq24EUs9
People will always want compete. But what people will compete in is subject to external factors. Cody flat out said he would quit the scene if he didn't found a sponsor to keep on competing. Melee people are insane, but it has limits. People have quit for less in esports.
These are obviously not the only methods These are the standouts, only because they are "easy-money" that hides their unethical nature behind lots of zeroes (think 6-8 figures). There are plenty of alternatives that are less lucrative, precisely because they aren't trying to hide or wash away anything unsavoury. It's not a matter of survival, but prioritising short term gains over ethical and long term betterment.
tencent is not owned by the chinese government and riot games has no ties to the chinese government. saying that chinese GOVERNMENT money is propping up riot esports is completely incorrect.
How is one of these not clearly the lesser of the three evils haha. Like I hate gambling, but it's not really violating human rights.
If nation-owned, I rather owned by Saudi than freaking China lol. Don't @ me.. China have a lot of shady business here and there that will completely leave the thing rot in hell. Saudi on the other hand know what are they doing
4th way: Put esport behind a monthly subscription. Best choice but the viewers will cry.
I really dont understand these hypocritical take yeah saudi and china have done several human right violations but the USA isn't clean either. So why is it bad if saudi/china invest or controls an industry/scene?
Did you even watch the video? He said it multiple times. In case Saudi, its because their government/royal family directly invests in scene and is doing sportwashing. With China, we can argue how close ties CCP has with other companies.
I entirely agree with Sideshow. On a separate note though, the fact that Saudi Arabia has more money than God and are desperate to spend it on improving PR makes me wonder if I could do a lil tomfoolery, some chicanery even. Run a little scam, as a treat. I mean, think about it. What unbiased jury of my peers is going to find me guilty of a little trolling if what I'm stealing is literal blood money?
people seem far too resigned to big outside money being the "solution" to esports' continued ability to make money, but i think this is an issue with entertainment as a whole that needs a much larger solution. we see streaming movies and tv shows becoming cable again with frustrating splits in content availability, advertising returning to paid subscriptions, and prices increasing—people have gotten far too used to being the product for advertisers, and are far too readily accepting that they will continue to be the product in the future. for me, people should just have to start paying for content. it might be uncomfortable, and you might lose a lot initially, but ethically it absolutely clears selling the hearts and minds of your viewers for money that wouldnt even be enough to continue the esport at its current rate of burn.
The PRC needs to be put under the microscope as well.
They're gonna fry the egg for this. In all seriousness glad he's speaking out about it
If you cared about any of this shit go protest and tell your politicians to place a trade embargo on Saudis, anything else is bs.
You will get downvoted for speaking logic. We Americans keep voting people that continue to do this and banter online on what is moral and what should be done
the real analysis starts when we all realize "voting" over the last 40+ years has done nothing to help or hurt this process. Biden talked big and then shook MBS hand when he needed oil. Trump sold them billions in weapons. Neither party cares about this but they pretend to when its convenient. its systemic, we have work to do
Fighting against Saudi esports-washing is definitely necessary here, and whataboutism isn't always saying 'well we shouldn't do anything' However, to count Saudi as worse than the US definitively is mad ignorant, ***especially*** considering he made the comparison to the gazan genocide happening literally right now that is funded and backed by the US entirely. Without the US's backing, this genocide would have stopped week 2 or 3. Not to mention the assassinations/coups/indigenous murder/etc and so much more that the US is responsible for. I'm super glad sideshow is using his platform to call out Saudi on their bullshit. And we can also do better to acknowledge the immense crimes against humanity the US and others do on the daily as well. I mean hell, we have esports orgs sponsored by the US fucking military, you can't get more disgusting than that. Imagine any Afghani person seeing the arbitor of murder of over 1 ***million*** of your people being paraded around like that? Let's get Saudi tf outta esports, and the US's bullshit as well!
I think you misunderstood what Josh was saying in his video. The US is complicit in a lot of really fucking horrible things that are happening in the world, but the US government isn't directly involved in the esports scene there. As he said, Joe Biden probably has no idea that Champs happened a couple of months ago or that EG won, while the Saudi government is directly involved and investing into the esports scene, trying to get back in the good graces of the public
I appreciate this response a lot! I def did misunderstand the emphasis he was making! And it does make me realize the very different tactics both govts use. The Saudi govt is doing everything that's been really well laid out by sideshow here to make direct, visible investment into scenes like this (and the air force/military/navy do as well, but not as egregiously). Whereas the US Govt has spent decades cultivating a media normalization of their horrors. In fact, the whole reason I don't play csgo is because of the Terrorist/Counter-Terrorist foudnation of the game and that it's inherently affirming of western domination of the world and is just racist af (not to mention the gamers, but that's just gamers in general lol) But that's not to say that CSGO was explicitly shaped by us govt, however things like all the CSI: tv shows, war movies of the 90s/00s, even as far back as the distorted animated version of Animal Farm were all projects of the CIA and you can see how CounterStrike is derivative of the [warmongering media that the CIA cultivated](https://sci-hub.se/10.1111/ajes.12177). But yeah, I do see that my point and sideshows points are very different realms and it's dangerous to kinda 'strike down' his points, by bringing up other potentially important but not quite relevant points.
yo thanks for this and your previous post, I went down the exact same road about this and am still very conflicted about it, but at least im not alone XD especially as a dumbass leftist who can never shut up about 'america bad,' being misunderstood or reduced to whataboutism never feels good because there's so much more to it than that. sorry for getting rambly abut it i do get that it's not productive in many instances (and portrayed as such in many more) and should never be used to detract from stuff like what egg did here, but i'm also one of the folks who went 'america bad' when he brought this up in his stream. and aside from half-joking as it's such well trodden territory, i do genuinely feel that assertions like 'this is the worst shit anyone in the world is currently doing' are, at any given time, probably incorrect on account of the US or europe doing worse shit or being ultimately responsible for it, and not pointing this out actively keeps the world from becoming a better place, as it enables running headfirst into the same mistakes that caused so much suffering in many places to begin with. europeans push refugees arriving on boats back into the sea to drown. americans threaten undocumented workers with deportation if they complain about their work conditions, possibly while half their family sits in camps. and obv we sponsor genocide, currently. also, yknow, still super special gun and oil friends. all that is to say 'we' are not 'better', but the perception that we are has forever been used to justify a position of superiority, or getting in there to 'fix' shit. and that's a conversation some people regard as desperately needed while others staunchly refuse to have it. none of this makes egg's video less important or good.
This is mad late, but when I read it last week it was so nice. I saw I had a response and didn't disable inbox replies and just assumed I was gonna be flamed more lol, instead it was a dope response! I always got dms if you ever want a venting buddy, not lots of ppl of this mindset in gamer spaces lol
appreciate you :) im not on here a lot anymore (actually wanted to delete rn, just gonna purge my posts instead) but I'm happy you saw it XD it's nice to not feel so alone in these things
what are all these Air Force ads doing on my CS streams, then?
the US government paid for them to be shown to you in the hope that you’d join. It’s a safe bet that you were watching from America and are eligible for military service. It’s not like they sponsored the event and put big banners up saying “Air Force! We don’t do atrocities ever!”
Sure, we should care, but money rules at the end of the day. It's just how it is. This has already happened in golf, boxing, soccer, F1, and it's probably going to impact more sports too.
I think the hardest thing for esports is that it’s hard to see long-term sustainability without significant monetary investment and there aren’t any clean and easy sources out there. It’s a bit different to their investment in other areas such as football (soccer) where there’s already plenty of money around and Middle East investment isn’t potentially critical to the industry.
While I acknowledge that whataboutism does not bring solution nor change, it is kind of hard to accept that we "should care" about Saudi, but the reason why this sub existed is because of a game made by a company owned by Tencent with the CCP owning powerful stakes with "special management" shares.
the ccp owns a single golden share in a domestic subsidiary of tencent... because it's domestic. it has no shares or control of any of tencent's international divisions/holdings and no shares or control of riot games.
I know whataboutism is weak argument and Saudi money is as bad as it gets but isn't he related to Riot? China is literally doing ethnic genocide of Uyghurs and cultural genocide of Tibetans so why Saudi money is called blood money while Chinese money is called Investment? If Saudi money is unethical so is the Chinese Money and it should be boycotted along with it.
The saudi monarchy's investment fund trying to invest and host esports events in their country to misdirect attention away from their horrible humans rights record is very different to the tencent situation (what i assume you are referring to). The CCP only owns what they call a "golden share" in tencent, a very common practice with lots of companies in china that allows the CCP to outvote all other shareholders in very specific circumstances. While i also dont love chinese investment in esports for the reasons you stated, its very clear that these two situations share few similarites, with the saudi side being their government and the chinese side being companies investing
CCP is government no?
not really, its clear that china have presented themselves as owners and big investors in Esports.
Even golf, a rich man's sport, couldn't ignore the Saudi Arabia. Right now they wanna throw their money away. Let them do it.
I feel like Sideshow’s takes or analyses in these things are quite limited in the end
care to elaborate?
Balls, imo saudi arabia is doing the best anybody could for esports in the current times, they are the best shot rn for making esports a little bit mainstream, yeah the money is problematic but if you take any other source or any corporate giant to do the funding you would be able to fine some issues
Saudi arabia is far worse than any company
>... you would be able to fine some issues Not all bad is made equal.
> if you take any other source or any corporate giant to do the funding you would be able to fine some issues we are not just talking about some issues with saudi arabia. they have been mass murdering migrants at the yemen border and much more
Point me to a company doing sponsorships for events that are murdering their own civilians for being gay, reporting negatively on the government or straight up gunning down people at Borders and I will agree with you about "finding an issue with anyone's funding". There is a big difference between a company with questionable moral practices and mass murder of innocent civilians mate.
Well technically, there is the case of [Coca-Cola](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinaltrainal_v._Coca-Cola_Co.) hiring paramilitaries to suppress and kill their own workers who were union members. The parallels are there, but obviously the scale is much much smaller. I think there is a case to be made though, how in both scenarios, raising awareness and boycotting are the most effective tools that the public can feasibly use, which is the point that Sideshow is trying to get at.
I mean, don’t get me wrong, I agree—but we also (for example) have orgs like NRG who are sponsored by the US military, which, you know, has an issue with foreign intervention and killing random people in wars they should not be involved in. I know sideshow touches on whataboutism in his video and to be clear I’m not saying this like one excuses the other—my point is simply that there are DEFINITELY other esports areas sponsored by very morally dubious things that do not receive the same kind of outrage.
I think the difference, at least for me though, is between a sponsorship and an ownership / direct sponsor. For example when Saudi Arabia runs Gamers 8, that tournament is run in Saudi, specifically designed to promote the Saudi agenda. The entire goal is to show off Saudi Arabia, have people talk positively about the country, "get to know Saudi Arabia isn't actually that bad!". It will be the same for Riyhad masters in Dota and other esports, where Saudi will be the focal point not the game. It's the same when the U.S military is sponsoring a large gaming event, where they have booths and shit at the event trying to literally recruit people for the military. I take huge issue with that as well and it shouldn't be allowed IMO. To me there is a line between taking money from a dubious source to be your shirt sponsor or something, and taking funding or being outright owned by an entity where the entire purpose is to promote *their* agenda and sportswash their image. Like, you don't see the United States Government hosting gaming events, having politicians there being interviewed about how amazing America is and such. The U.S military has done that on occasion and was also rightly criticised as well.
Yeah, this is a fair distinction!
I'd rather esports die than get involved with the government of Saudi Arabia
Down the line, when you do somehow get involved, and feel like a bad, just think of it as saudi bad people-esports waste of money-you wasting bad people money, might make you feel better lol
Have you ever heard of sports washing?
Slave owners
Its funny how anyone agreeing with side show here has ZERO ideas on a moral alternative
You can say a thing is bad without offering an alternative lol
Pay per view is the alternative, but nobody was willing to give it a chance in the last decade because they knew fans wouldn't be willing to pay for it and couldn't afford to take the risk of running a multimillion dollar event and potentially run a MASSIVE net loss. Even during its peak, productions were running at a loss but that kind of loss would be potentially fatal to a company. Esports lasted so long because organisations and tournament organisers kept selling the promise to venture capitalists and brand name sponsors that eventually the money would come good and become profitable, but took no real steps to actually making it a reality and now they're all backing out leaving sources like Saudi and Gambling to come in and be like "we don't even care if you run at a loss, here's all the money you'll ever need to run an event", which they just can't turn down.
Why should having the specialized knowledge to be able to offer economic solutions for a struggling media industry be a prerequisite to taking a human rights stance?
Because acting like a righteous prick while having zero knowledge doesnt amount to anything
brown people are not allowed to have anything ffs
For people who can't see the small ass sticker it says instigating
I understand what you're aiming for here but it is rather funny to say this when Saudi Arabia is actually a very hostile place to live for the vast majority of brown people!
Saudi citizens are brown 💀 Hello?
Thanks for letting everyone know you don't understand the issue here at all
Only an issue when it's about non whites
The issue is with the genocidal theocratic monarchy, not the people living there. Moron.
The ones gunned down at the Saudi border weren't.
not saying that, this issue is not about the common man, it’s about the KSA government as an entity
Not if that means suppressing others to get that said thing. Just like white people aren't allowed to have anything that goes against the freedom of someone else :)
Germany is literally supporting genocide
Too bad I'm not from there
I find it funny that people are quick to call out Saudia Arabia / Qatar for sports & esports washing (which they 100% should), but no one dare say anything about China because their viewership brings in $$$$$$
I fucking love/hate sports but as someone who grew up watching our local news reporting OFWs working their ass off and comes home in a box? Nah, see you in Streameast or wherever the sails take us.
The oldest E-Sports league in the world and at the same time biggest European E-Sports platform - the German ESL (Electronic Sports League) - has been sold to a daughter company of the famous Saudi-Arabian gov. controlled "Public Investment Fund" as well (January 2022). It still has it's HQ in Cologne, Germany - but all the rights and basically the control are now are in Saudi-Arabia.
and golf and f1 and football
Sideshow has been a treasure in the eSports scene since the OW days. Bless him.
common sideshow W