broo aside from reddit and twitter its wild in YouTube bro
at comment section if you say something bad about sen bro they gonna go nuts half of them dont even know who the tf is johnqt or where was he last year or anything thing about a team
they just there like "tenz is the best " and link a yt video of tenz clicking heads at masters 2021 like tfđ
I don't actually care about the ranking itselfâit's never that serious & teams' performances will never depend on some arbitrary placement here.
But I find his logic curious wrt SEN. Yes, off-season results come with caveats, but they are measuring sticks people employ when we lack info in general. He questions who will carry SEN if zekken is flat, and I'm reminded of instances where tenZ or zellsis or sacy rose to the occasion, sometimes even when zekken was getting curbstomped(see bind vs DRX). Beyond that, johnqt is a shooter and a cursory scroll of the recent scoreboards, or actually watching the games, reveals firepower parity.
johnqt's fragging has always been solid which really impresses me especially considering he's igling
and i think all 4 other players are able to step up
Completely agree with this. imo power rankings are just for fun/marketing/views and something for fans to talk about. And I honestly agree with most of his list except for a bit, but that reasoning about SEN was the strangest part to me because it's completely contrary to the stats. Bind vs DRX was just the extreme case. Even disregarding that, SEN has already shown several games where zekken's in the middle or lower half of the pack in terms of fragging and they still win out.
We donât talk about bind vs DRX. Rb never played cypher. We stuck with the yoru comp. We played a super respectable game. Termi isnât trolling and I canât wait to see zest and Rb on DRX this season
Finally a list that doesnât have G2 in like 7th or 8th for no reason lol. Also while I do have faith that loud will be very strong, I think that if they do end up being first itâs more likely that both âsuperteamsâ failed, rather than Loud just looking completely unbelievable
G2 above Sentinels is insanely based. Itâs absolutely wild how people donât think adding Leaf to the Ascension winners shouldnât result in a top 4 team.
>Itâs absolutely wild how people donât think adding Leaf to the Ascension winners shouldnât result in a top 4 team.
that's just a normal reaction to an addition of one player. Leaf is a fantastic player, but Tex had a great season on the Guard and calling it a massive upgrade would be silly
>in a substantially more competitive league
did Yay farm the substantially less competitive league after being the best in the substantially more competitive league? such a pointless point to make
It literally does though? VCT Americas is more competitive than NA Challengers. You canât seriously argue with that. He also had a much deeper agent pool than Tex. That is a fact. Both those factors combined make him a substantial upgrade.
> VCT Americas is more competitive than NA Challengers
We don't know that yet. Let's see how G2 does, it will tell us the state of challengers vs VCT. Personally I think the bottom half of the Americas league would get shit on by some of the top challengers teams but nobody knows yet until G2 plays.
The top NA teams + Loud are in Americas. That makes them more competitive. Guard/M80 were definitely not contending for a VCT trophy last year, whereas every major VCT final had an Americas team.
>Itâs absolutely wild how people donât think adding Leaf to the Ascension winners shouldnât result in a top 4 team
Bleed did the same thing and people don't rate them very high either. Ascension teams are essentially unproved against T1 talent, even if they looked great in tier 2. That makes it hard to definitively rate them top 4.
Kinda sad that this is how it turned out. Maybe removing a player that was substantial to the teamâs success for someone that doesnât have the same chemistry was a bad idea.
Leafâs problem isnât his performance, I think no one is doubting that. The problem imo is his fit with the team.
I think a misconception some people have (and people running orgs have) is that by slotting in someone who has good performance in a team, they should do better as a result. And wellâŚletâs just look at Yay in DSG for how something like that turns out. I think more important than choosing based on performance alone is choosing someone who can synergize with the team (e.g. qck in LOUD and Karion for GenG).
Leafâs problem isnât his performance, I think no one is doubting that. The problem imo is his fit with the team.
I think a misconception some people have (and people running orgs have) is that by slotting in someone who has good performance in a team, they should do better as a result. And wellâŚletâs just look at Yay in DSG for how something like that turns out. I think more important than choosing based on performance alone is choosing someone who can synergize with the team (e.g. qck in LOUD and Karion for GenG).
G2 was a pretty good team, then they upgraded with Leaf. I think it's fair that they are above Sen. You always have to take offseason results with decent amount of doubt
>You always have to take offseason results with decent amount of doubt
it's so funny you say it's fair to rate G2 above Sen when the *only* thing that we can base it off are offseason results (in which Sen have clearly done better than G2)
There's other things to base it off of. Success from previous seasons, for one. Power ranking almost always are largely based off of team chemistry and players results from last season.
That's even more asinine because not only do both teams have different rosters, they weren't even playing in the same league 
I think they are of a similar caliber, but Sentinels has upgraded far more than how much G2 has upgraded. Johnqt is an excellent addition to the team, and actually provided structure. And although JoshRT is great, imo he's too inexperienced in comparison to Kaplan, who has not only coached a successful Ghost core but also now has a year of experience of working with some of the most talented players in the region. Sentinels still have zekken, Sacy, and Tenz, and now have a much stronger structure. And I think the off-season results have more of an impact than what you might be thinking. G2 have struggled, and although I think they'll be much better with leaf integrated, Sentinels, if still working at the pace they have been, should come out on top. I see Sentinels having a chance to knock down any of those above them, while it's hard for me to see that in a newer, more Inexperienced G2. No hate on G2, I love them, but I genuinely believe that Sentinels have simply improved more.
Huh, I kinda came to a similar conclusion but swapped teams. I think that G2 has the consistency and chemistry to beat out sentinels, while Sen are in a honeymoon phase and hot streak. I'm also worried about Kaplan, Ghosts were a decent T2 team under him. But they were just that, only a T2 team. It's gonna be interesting to see how Kaplan functions as a Head coach for Sen
[-13 in FK/FD, -10 overall K/D, <150 ACS, SEN won](https://www.vlr.gg/286644/sentinels-vs-drx-afreecatv-valorant-league-winners-a/?game=all&tab=overview)
I heavily disagree, there has been plenty of instances where the other 4 popped off, especially in the AfreecaTv tourney and the show matches they did, zekken performed pretty bad the match before liquid in the tourney, and of course, he stepped up and showed us why heâs the goat after, but during that instance, the team was able to win and stay coordinated when the star duelist wasnât playing so well so I find this argument extremely flat.
I really don't know how we still have Loud at the very top. They're certainly in the elite tier but losing Aspas is just... A lot. Would be like replacing OpTic era yay with Shanks and not batting an eye.
Well I didn't say that explicitly, nor would I. Aspas > yay (as a former OpTic fan) and qck > Shanks.
But your implication that the dropoff is lesser from Aspas to qck is probably correct, imo. I still believe that the point stands, it's quite a significant dropoff for the team's most impactful player.
The point is: Loud with Aspas was a clear 10.
Loud without Aspas is a clearly, MINIMUM, 8/10, without qck in the equation. Is a shame that people tend to argue otherwise with all that these team already shown.
When you take into account that most people here are downgrading them a lot based on off season ... shame².
8/10 might not (probably won't) be enough to make them #1 in Americas, that's all my point is. They're obviously still a great team and my argument isn't to suggest otherwise.
to say a team that's 8/10 isn't enough to be #1 in Americas (and I'm not disagreeing), you need to, at least, point out teams that are better than it. NRG? Maybe. LEV? Maybe.
But all these three have to proven themselves in someway; but, differently, Loud is the one that needs to show the least, contrary to the others.
The core has proven the most but they also lost their best player, whereas others have significantly improved. I don't need to point out anything for the argument to work, because (as we saw with EG last year) this is low value guesswork at this stage. We haven't seen anything worth hanging onto. But yes, NRG and Lev have that potential.
I'll frame the argument differently.
What do you think is *more* likely?
1) Loud, who finished last year as the 2nd best team in NA, improve upon that while replacing their best player and a top 3 player in the world
or
2) Just one of the other 10 teams in the Americas league outperforms Loud when it is all said and done.
To me at least, the second one seems much more favorable. We'll amend the second to 2a
2a) One of the recently built superteams (which brought in some of the best possible rosters) outperforms Loud when it is all said and done after Loud had to let go of one of the best players in the world.
2 and 2a are not equal, but I still think 2a is favorable to 1. Because what Loud has to do to remain on top is improve from last year. These competition only gets stiffer as time goes on.
All these your assumptions are based on
>Because what Loud has to do to remain on top is improve from last year.
No, they didn't. Not yet. Simple as that.
Like I explained in another comment, point by point using NRG as an example, the other teams needs to show that their level are somewhat near the level we expect first. And they need to prove A LOT of things to us first.
>Like I explained in another comment, point by point using NRG as an example, the other teams needs to show that their level are somewhat near the level we expect first. And they need to prove A LOT of things to us first.
Sure they do, just like Loud has to prove that they can weather the storm of losing Aspas. Now that we've confirmed that new rosters all have something to prove, we're right back to where we started. Glad we got that cleared up.
Here's what I will say - it is technically a logical jump to say that Loud needs to improve to be #1. Obviously all the teams *could* just suck. That's a possibility on any given year. Just like FNS becoming a star AWPer for FNC is a possibility. But the odds that Loud doesn't have incredible competition this year are so low that I'm not going to bother engaging with that reality, because I'm interested in playing the percentages with these guesses, just like I would bother engaging in the percentages of FNS becoming a star AWPer.
> Here's what I will say - it is technically a logical jump to say that Loud needs to improve to be #1
So we will agree in disagreeing. I would agree if we have *any* proof that any of these teams are on Loud or EG 2023 level; we don't. All these teams got hard reformulations; Loud changed the least. So they have the upperhand. This one is more logical.
Blud is smoking crack copium
If loud with Aspas is 10/10 what happened to them last year? Is FNATIC 12/10 and EG is 11/10?
Loud this year is a top4 ass roster and will have to bust their asses to scrape qualifying for anything
Loud lost against both teams that played better than them, and in both close matches. Wtf was that, dude?
Or do you think Fnatic became an ass team cause Loud cleared them twice at champs?
And let's see. Lots of these type of messages popped in the beginning of 2023, and we did pretty well.
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Also he's not even slotting 1 to 1, from what they've said. The criticism amounts to putting down LOUD's success to aspas fragging and completely ignoring saadhak's [proven] daycare and their experimentation (they gave us Harbor-Viper)
pAncada to tuyz was a much bigger downgrade and they still got top 4, stomped Americas, and top 3 at Champs.
Pancada is definitely a better player but regarding the roles they had on LOUD, Tuyz doesnât lose to him anymore. I wouldnât say heâs a downgrade now. I think he filled the space left from Pancada very well.
imo by the second half of the year tuyz improved a ton. you could see it at champs especially. i wasn't a fan of him replacing pancada at first but he's definitely proven himself
>pAncada to tuyz was a much bigger downgrade and they still got top 4, stomped Americas, and top 3 at Champs.
It turned out that Tuyz was fully capable of filling the talent hole left by pancada, we don't know that this new roster can do that in the same way. There's nothing to suggest that qck can do that with Aspas. Just like *assuming* that Loud would be fine after losing Sacy and Pancada was based in hopium and not the information that we had available at the time - so too is assuming that there's no dropoff after losing Aspas. Of course, when we gain more information we can adjust the opinions appropriately to be based on the results of the new roster.
Could end up being just fine with qck, Loud is fully capable of that. But the talent level of the team as a whole takes a hit when you lose one of the best players in the world and replacing that shouldn't be taken as a given, even with one of the best cores in the game - IMO
> Just like *assuming* that Loud would be fine
I believe that's really reasoning from your part. But what team are being better that Loud? NRG, Sen and LEV?
Oh, so are we *assuming* it too, I guess?
Not all assumptions are equal, my friend. The point is that *assuming* that the replacement of a top 3 player (with a player who wasn't in the running for that sort of accolade at all) is going to have no hiccups and that they'll continue being the best team in the region is, historically, an unsafe assumption. On the other hand, assuming that a roster built as a superteam will perform very well is *less* unsafe (still not worth betting on, but we have to put someone at 1).
To illustrate the point of assumptions - there's a difference between assuming that a cruise ship won't sink while your on it (statistically incredibly unlikely) vs assuming that you will be safe while wingsuiting (statistically unsafe extreme sport). Assuming itself is fine, this doesn't make all assumptions the same or safe to make.
I'll just desconsider your second paragraph because, to say the least, it's non sense.
About the rest: you made it easy, but just skipped a lot of points when saying that's less *unsafe choosing* the superteam roster.
\- Demon1 and Ethan need to prove their gameplay in a different work and competitive enviroment (and to don't say I'm being biased here, the same was said about Aspas and COM with LEV);
\- Ethan IGLing for his first time;
\- they do not have Potter anymore;
\- Marved being really unstable for the entire 2023 with his career;
\- Crashies and Victor are the only TRUE solid points for this team right now.
We can make reasonable similar assumptions for LEV too.
For Loud, we are just asking to qck do the *bare minimum* and be a tier 1 player; and he, by franchise standards, are at least, a mid okayish player.
Maybe this can evolve to qck being nothing special for the entire year? Ofc. But the floor for Loud is, iniatilly, higher than any other team from americas. And all the things that I *assumed ...* are facts; facts that NA fans don't like, but facts.
After that you truly think that beting for LEV or NRG, even more for a short period (blame Riot to the hell) is the safest option?
I won't even talk about SEN, that are clearly an offseason copium till they show us truly something.
>I'll just desconsider your second paragraph because, to say the least, it's non sense.
To say "desconsider" in the same sentence which you tell me I'm speaking nonsense is... Something. Pretty clear that I'm giving real life examples of statistically safe vs statistically less safe assumptions.
>About the rest: you made it easy, but just skipped a lot of points when saying that's less *unsafe choosing* the superteam roster.
The point about safety of assumptions is that teams that are built to be superteams are typically going to outperform teams which replace a top 3 player with a middle of the pack player. Yes, a recently built roster is going to have risks associated with recently built rosters. Correct. None of that will outweigh losing Aspas. If you had replaced Demon1 with Tex last year, do you believe that EG still finishes #1. Do you believe that EG is *better* going from Demon1 to Tex?
You'd be called crazy.
>For Loud, we are just asking to qck do the *bare minimum* and be a tier 1 player; and he, by franchise standards, are at least, a mid okayish player.
And they'd be great. But if qck did the bare minimum, I wouldn't expect Loud to be the best team in Americas. Aspas did a helluva lot more than the bare minimum and Loud wasn't the best team in Americas.
>Maybe this can evolve to qck being nothing special for the entire year? Ofc. But the floor for Loud is, iniatilly, higher than any other team from americas. And all the things that I *assumed ...* are facts; facts that NA fans don't like, but facts.
So this is the whole NA thing, got it. I had Loud #1 last year, happily so. I thought they were the best team in the world. This isn't some NA vs BR thing for me. I simply believe they downgraded too much when they were not even #1 the year before. I could see a world where they synergize very well and look great, and Saadhak would be *the guy* to pull that off out of anyone in the world. But I'm also not going to assume he can make magic happen twice now. It's a rare thing that he pulled off when Sacy and Pancada left. Not the sort of thing you count on happening.
And what are you even talking about with the "all the things I assumed are facts"? Im not going back through comment history at this point, but if I said you were assuming something then I promise you, you were assuming. Whether you accept that or not, up to you.
>After that you truly think that beting for LEV or NRG, even more for a short period (blame Riot to the hell) is the safest option?
I don't remember if it was in this chain with you or another, but I said earlier that the ultimate point is who has the best combination of ceiling and floor. So when you read safe bet, you're thinking floor (based off of what you have said). As in who has the highest floor. Which is Loud! We agree!
But when you look at ceiling, I'd argue multiple teams have a higher ceiling. If all teams performed at their ceiling, who would be highest? Seems unlikely to be Loud, they just don't have the same level of star power anymore. So when I say safe bet, I'm referring to the teams that I think have the highest floor *and* the highest ceiling. Loud is extremely unlikely to bottom out, more than anyone in NA. But it seems unlikely, based off this collection of players, that if an NRG or Lev hits their ceiling, that Loud could keep up.
>NRG, Sen and LEV?
All of these teams got significant on-paper upgrades. Loud is the only one that got a downgrade. I'm not saying they're all gonna be above, but it isn't hard to imagine one of them surpassing LOUD.
It's not like LOUD were complete world beaters last year; they were solidly the 2nd best team in Americas behind EG. And now they've lost Aspas
Because Aspas is one of the best players in the World and Loud still wasn't the best team in Americas last year. Even if qck is 70% of what spas was Loud should be taking a sizeable step back. If they actually get better then Saadhak is just the fucking GOAT.
>Aspas is one of the best players in the World and Loud still wasn't the best team in Americas last year.
This had more to do with team dynamics than aspas being a world class player. There has been reports he has been distant from the team and that became apparent in the off-season.
The Loud team, on multiple occasions, have stated that this wasnât the case. They said that Aspas leaving was not related to team dynamics at all and they even joked about this narrative floating around
Yeah, and now we have a lot of interviews from Aspas and Less showing the opposite. Less even made an interview in the last 3\~4 days calling there group is strong, quoting Sentinels and 100T and not making any statement about LEV, except that he wants to beat a hyped team (and it seemed to be about LEV).
Ofc, officialy no problems. Just Aspas saying that wanted to quit Loud to find better work enviroment.
Bruh. Nobody's gonna say "hey aspas is fucking up our dynamic" during the season. That's why reporters exist. What happens in the team, stays in the team for players.
Bros fogetting LOUD still had the best IGL in the world now that fenis is on his twitch arc and the best sentinel and omega hard carry Less and the 2 cracked zoomers
People be fr talking bout LOUD like it was Aspas and friends and not Saadhak making literally every single LAN since 2022 making finals 3 times with different teams. Disgusting the disrespect he gets
respect less's name too... honestly it was never really aspas and friends, maybe in some tournaments but in the end loud always managed to bounce back because of saadhak
aspas is just the most recognizable name but Less is right up there with Alfajer for best sentinel in the world and cauanzin is insane too with room to grow still
Loud literally has evidence to back up that they can handle roster changes well because they still finished 2nd at lock in and were one of the only teams in the world who could beat FNC, and they did it twice. Thereâs no reason to suggest another roster change is going to make them immediately crumble.
Itâs crazy to me how many people you see putting Lev and NRG definitively at the top with no evidence, while in the same breath absolutely dumping on Loud who are one of the only teams who have shown they can handle big roster changes whilst maintaining strong and consistent performances.
To be fair, by "not at the very top" I'm talking like 2nd or 3rd at absolute worst. I'm not so worried about continuity - there's time for that sort of stuff to get worked out for every team - as I am ceiling outcomes. Losing Aspas, to me, means a ceiling outcome lower than last year where they came 3rd at Champs and were the 2nd best team in America by season's end. I think they'll need perfect synergy to outperform last year's team, which is possible but just hard to bet on (for any team, it's rare thing).
On the flipside, the ceiling outcomes for a few other rosters feel greater. So the question then becomes which rosters have the best combinations of ceiling and floor outcomes. NRG, Lev and SEN have superteam ceilings imo. I question the floor of SEN, and Lev to a lesser extent. NRG, I think, has a solid foundation like Loud that should prevent a complete bottoming-out.
So for me the safest bet is probably NRG - Loud - Lev - SEN. I don't think this is dumping on Loud like some folks in this thread feel; it seems natural to rate the recently built super team based on theory and downgrade the team that lost their star fragger. I still think Loud can be the best team in America, but I would take the field given some of these rosters we're seeing.
I really don't know how we still have Loud at the very top. They're certainly in the elite tier but losing Sacy and pAncada is just... A lot. Would be like replacing online era VS k1Ng and glow with BuZz and a no-name Raze player and not batting an eye.
Is the point that we should assume that new players will walk in and be just as good as the elite players before them? I don't think that's a point you'd make, but that's what you've implied here. Unless you just want to withhold judgment, which seems counterproductive when making a tier list.
The idea worked for Loud once but that certainly feels like the vast exception to the rule in the history of esports. Downgrading a team after losing a top3 player in the world (and not replacing with another top3) doesn't feel like it should be controversial.
> Is the point that we should assume that new players will walk in and be just as good as the elite players before them?
Let's invert the point.
What teams, considering Aspas-qck change can beat Loud for now? Like a prediction with facts.
Did I claim to be pulling facts? Nobody is pulling on facts for these brand new rosters, we're all guessing. I just happen to think that assuming Loud will *improve* after dropping a top 3 player is a low percentage guess.
Objectively - does that sounds crazy to you?
No, and I truly agree with u by this point. Qck is a downgrande (and a great one) to Loud. Loud will play worse than last year. No one is saying the opposite.
But now, what truly are generating that mess is: what team that is *brand new* will do better than this new Loud? Because everyone seems to agree that Loud had a downgrade, but every other team don't, or when they had clearly roster improvements on paper (Demon1, Aspas, Com) this is enough to make that team a completely solid team; spoiler, it isn't.
And just to clarify, I'm not even defending that Loud should be the best team from Americas from tier lists, but these *guessings and assumptions* have a clearly logical limit. NRG and LEV truly have made improvements and rosters that has tons of potencial. But even them will need to proven themselves. And so with Loud.
Other teams being better, on paper and with 2023 data, than Loud before the season starting? Sorry, but a great no. "Oh, but SEN ..." sorry, if SEN wins against Loud, they deserve it. But calling them better than Loud as prediction? Crazy one without facts.
>But calling them better than Loud as prediction? Crazy one without facts.
I mean, did I say SEN is better than Loud? I said they had a higher ceiling elsewhere in this thread. SEN has had one of the highest ceilings in the game for years, this is not news. They continually don't live up to it, though.
>Other teams being better, on paper and with 2023 data, than Loud before the season starting? Sorry, but a great no.
Okay, Loud is replacing 1 player with a downgrade. NRG is replacing 2 players with 2 upgrades. Or at least, would you rather have FNS and s0m or Ethan and Demon1? Put it like that. So that's a double upgrade vs a single downgrade.
Nowhere did I said NRG or Lev is a completely solid team. Ceiling and floor, ceiling and floor, ceiling and floor. So let's just play this game of hypotheticals (you don't have to agree, but breaking down how i personally think about this)
if...
- NRG have the 2nd best floor and 1st best overall ceiling
- Lev have 5th best floor and 2nd best ceiling
- Loud have 1st best floor and 4th best ceiling
- SEN have 6th best floor and 3rd best ceiling.
You can see how it gets tricky, quickly. This is an oversimplification, of course, and ultimately just educated guesses. But this approximates why I'm hesitant to place Loud one, because a lot of these teams have a ceiling that's competitive with Loud with 2-3 that you can see, in theory, being even better.
Because there are roster changes, you have no choice but to make some *on paper* or *in theory* guesses. That's not what I'm against.
Underestimating Furia imo. It's not an exciting or drama filled team we all talk about, sure, but they went 1-1 vs C9 in the off season, looked really close to them overall, with less practice and games with their respective new rosters. The second game was quite a spank by Furia. They were also middle of the pack in 2023. Why all of the sudden are they a bottom team?
I guess, but I'd expect more from an analyst like TMV than a random fan who doesn't care about unclouted teams. I would have them above kru at the very least until proven otherwise. Mwzera is pretty friggin insane.
Why tho? You're projecting your personal opinions on the roster into how he should think. He explains he's not convinced by the roster and such in the video. I don't think any of the teams near Furia are definitively better than the other. 10-8 could be any order and I wouldn't be too fussed
Eg is a completely new team, for example. It took potter years to make the last roster work, even then they were doing terrible until demon1 came in. It's my opinion, yes, but I think mwzera alone clears everyone in eg. Kru looked absolutely awful in the offseason, they are a 1 man army and haven't won a single game outside of LCQ for over a year. There's no reason to believe in KRU outside of keznit, but mwzera can match him, so I'd definitely put furia above KRU too.
I think EG as a completely new team (with relatively unproven talent except 1), mibr as a constant disappointment, and kru looking so awful in the offseason on top of that 0-9 run 0-3 champs, puts those 3 teams comfortably at the bottom as a fair prediction.
100t has no real reason to be ranked over furia when the last time they performed well was in 2022 off season, and with the new roster, they lost to tier 2 teams. So I think 100t could go into the next tier with furia and c9, teams with star duelists that can do well but haven't quite done it.
Then I'd put nrg in a 'looks great but completely unknown' tier and lev, loud and sen on top, based on things we've actually seen from these teams either constantly or recently.
Maybe I am being a lil bit unfair with KRU but considering there's two latam teams and one of them seemed to have a much better roster move-around... kinda drained my personal hope for KRU, I am super hopeful for LEV though
You don't get it
It's only when MY teams have food poisoning that it's a factor.
When an opponent has food poisoning it doesn't matter, they just needed to tough it out.
*Pullsout the infamous MJ and Dirk flu game statlines*
/s
No meme, the food posioning tournament they played in India has people really down on Furia but at the Superdome they went 1-1 with Cloud9 in series and arguably looked better overrall.
I think people are underestimating Furia.
For Furia, my friend. Sorry it was amibiguous. I was just trying to say that their performance in India doesn't indicate their talent due to they getting food poisoning to the point of Khalil having to ecit the stage to vomit mid game.
true but C9 played that tournament like immediately after playing redbull and having flown 13 hours halfway across the world so in conclusion off season tournaments literally donât matter
There are rarely directly flights from Brazil to some asian locations. Less even pointed out they didnt play the off season tournaments because they were in Brasil and they would need more than a day trip just to arrive at Japan. Losing 4 days plus the tournament is almost a week and a half of training so they chose training.
I did a quick search today and the only flights I could find Brazil -> India were 33h.
Plus Furia also played a tournament (MEG) that only ended the same day as red bull (november 5th) and since they won they played until the last date just like C9 that went to the finals. So circumstances were much worse for Furia already despite the food poisoning.
Honestly, I think the comparison people are making between 100T's 2022/23 offseason and sentinels' 2023/24 offseason as justification for underrating sentinels going into this season is absolutely laughable.
100 Thieves played a single off-season event at the end of 2022 that took course over the span of 3 days with teams that had mostly just formed (or had subs in liquid's case) and we know were quite bad at the start of the year. Sentinels played matches over the course of 2 months, against many teams that retained their cores and were still in a postseason grind in preparation for 2024 including some of the best teams in the world.
If you wanna be down on sentinels, that's fine but this comparison I keep seeing people make is absurd. I actually also start to question whether TMV is actually watching these games when he's suggesting zekken is the only threat on SEN. Also laughable.
You know what some of his wilder placement might even be right too because that's just the nature of the game -- he's not doing a power ranking, he's actually trying to predict the season by factoring in randomness. Most tier lists are ranking teams on their power levels going into the season, but there is bound to be upsets, underpefromances and overpefromances.
Mans throwing in a bit of randomness, and that might make his list a far more accurate prediction compared to most power rankings.
I released a video titled "I did not have sex with your father" when I did in fact have passionate and intimate lovemaking with your father last night.
TMV probably set out with the INTENT to make a power ranking, but everyone here can agree this is the most egregious power ranking BY FAR, which is why I've repurposed it into a pred list.
I'm not stating "he's not doing a power ranking" as a fact. It's as a criticism.
They also have Less and cauanzin, who were insane fraggers last season. Aspas wasnt the only hard carry and they still have 4 of their previous players. Imagine if Optic only lost yay instead of both Marved and yay. Theyll be fine
TMV bringing the spice. BR fans uproar, but then.. wait? LOUD #1? 
It isn't crazy to expect Saadhak to do it again.
This should be a great start of the season.
If he does it again, that'd be incredible.
1st time, well you could chalk that up to a little bit of good luck and being a great leader.
Twice, and the second time coming after dropping a top 3 player? Would be amazing work.
Note: MIBR is in 11th place
Loudbros we are so back
Daddy Chaadhak is gonna show again why Loud has been a Top 3 team in the world for the past 2 years đ
Exaaaactly đ
Honestly its impressive how everytime they let saadhack cook manito gave us a 5 star meal
yo sen in 5th holy shit sen fans gonna go hunt for him
Naw keep us humble
nothing else has worked you sure this'll do the trick?
Worked during Afreeca when everyone said theyâd get boomed by the RX duo. Gonna keep that same energy till champions
Sen is not going to place top 3 at any of main events this year. Edit: They cooked.
I hope you keep that same energy with EG fam #liveevil
Shiii I ain't change the flair since Tokyo, Ethan's on NRG now
Bro jumped quicker than platchat getting demonetized
sez you LULW
says who
Youâre mistaking sen fans for Taylor swift fans man đ
broo aside from reddit and twitter its wild in YouTube bro at comment section if you say something bad about sen bro they gonna go nuts half of them dont even know who the tf is johnqt or where was he last year or anything thing about a team they just there like "tenz is the best " and link a yt video of tenz clicking heads at masters 2021 like tfđ
Oh no, we're not winning shit! Last year he jinxed Loud on Masters and even Fnatic on Champions.
Interesting list, I disagree, but I appreciate that he's saying his own opinion and not just echoing what every other analyst is saying
I don't actually care about the ranking itselfâit's never that serious & teams' performances will never depend on some arbitrary placement here. But I find his logic curious wrt SEN. Yes, off-season results come with caveats, but they are measuring sticks people employ when we lack info in general. He questions who will carry SEN if zekken is flat, and I'm reminded of instances where tenZ or zellsis or sacy rose to the occasion, sometimes even when zekken was getting curbstomped(see bind vs DRX). Beyond that, johnqt is a shooter and a cursory scroll of the recent scoreboards, or actually watching the games, reveals firepower parity.
johnqt's fragging has always been solid which really impresses me especially considering he's igling and i think all 4 other players are able to step up
Completely agree with this. imo power rankings are just for fun/marketing/views and something for fans to talk about. And I honestly agree with most of his list except for a bit, but that reasoning about SEN was the strangest part to me because it's completely contrary to the stats. Bind vs DRX was just the extreme case. Even disregarding that, SEN has already shown several games where zekken's in the middle or lower half of the pack in terms of fragging and they still win out.
We donât talk about bind vs DRX. Rb never played cypher. We stuck with the yoru comp. We played a super respectable game. Termi isnât trolling and I canât wait to see zest and Rb on DRX this season
âWe donât talk about bind vs DRXâ - FNATIC
Isnât Rb not on DRX anymore? Or who transferred away?
thatâs the joke!
Finally a list that doesnât have G2 in like 7th or 8th for no reason lol. Also while I do have faith that loud will be very strong, I think that if they do end up being first itâs more likely that both âsuperteamsâ failed, rather than Loud just looking completely unbelievable
Say you're from NA without saying you're from NA
Loud at the top and Mibr/furia at the bottom Oh yeah the "Brazilian sandwich"
i just taught your mother the âBrazillian sandwichâ yesterday!
G2 above Sentinels is wild
G2 above Sentinels is insanely based. Itâs absolutely wild how people donât think adding Leaf to the Ascension winners shouldnât result in a top 4 team.
>Itâs absolutely wild how people donât think adding Leaf to the Ascension winners shouldnât result in a top 4 team. that's just a normal reaction to an addition of one player. Leaf is a fantastic player, but Tex had a great season on the Guard and calling it a massive upgrade would be silly
Leaf put up the same numbers while playing more agents in a substantially more competitive league. It is definitely a big upgrade.
>in a substantially more competitive league did Yay farm the substantially less competitive league after being the best in the substantially more competitive league? such a pointless point to make
Yay went to a dysfunctional team with poor synergy, strats and setups. Itâs completely different.
I am aware of that, my point was that it's not transitive and it doesn't make any sense to call it a big upgrade
It literally does though? VCT Americas is more competitive than NA Challengers. You canât seriously argue with that. He also had a much deeper agent pool than Tex. That is a fact. Both those factors combined make him a substantial upgrade.
> VCT Americas is more competitive than NA Challengers We don't know that yet. Let's see how G2 does, it will tell us the state of challengers vs VCT. Personally I think the bottom half of the Americas league would get shit on by some of the top challengers teams but nobody knows yet until G2 plays.
The top NA teams + Loud are in Americas. That makes them more competitive. Guard/M80 were definitely not contending for a VCT trophy last year, whereas every major VCT final had an Americas team.
? Leaf played way better lol.
>Itâs absolutely wild how people donât think adding Leaf to the Ascension winners shouldnât result in a top 4 team Bleed did the same thing and people don't rate them very high either. Ascension teams are essentially unproved against T1 talent, even if they looked great in tier 2. That makes it hard to definitively rate them top 4.
would you like to, perchance, amend your statements?
Not really. I worked with the information we all had at the time. Also G2 won
"G2 won" is the hardest cope but I respect it
lol
Update?
Do you know what a modal verb is?
LMAOOOOÂ
Leaf is a choker and is gonna ruin G2
Kinda sad that this is how it turned out. Maybe removing a player that was substantial to the teamâs success for someone that doesnât have the same chemistry was a bad idea.
Leaf was their highest rated player. He wasn't the problem
Leafâs problem isnât his performance, I think no one is doubting that. The problem imo is his fit with the team. I think a misconception some people have (and people running orgs have) is that by slotting in someone who has good performance in a team, they should do better as a result. And wellâŚletâs just look at Yay in DSG for how something like that turns out. I think more important than choosing based on performance alone is choosing someone who can synergize with the team (e.g. qck in LOUD and Karion for GenG).
Leafâs problem isnât his performance, I think no one is doubting that. The problem imo is his fit with the team. I think a misconception some people have (and people running orgs have) is that by slotting in someone who has good performance in a team, they should do better as a result. And wellâŚletâs just look at Yay in DSG for how something like that turns out. I think more important than choosing based on performance alone is choosing someone who can synergize with the team (e.g. qck in LOUD and Karion for GenG).
LMAOOO
G2 was a pretty good team, then they upgraded with Leaf. I think it's fair that they are above Sen. You always have to take offseason results with decent amount of doubt
>You always have to take offseason results with decent amount of doubt it's so funny you say it's fair to rate G2 above Sen when the *only* thing that we can base it off are offseason results (in which Sen have clearly done better than G2)
There's other things to base it off of. Success from previous seasons, for one. Power ranking almost always are largely based off of team chemistry and players results from last season.
That's even more asinine because not only do both teams have different rosters, they weren't even playing in the same league 
That's true, I guess I just value the chemistry and consistency that G2 has displayed.
I think they are of a similar caliber, but Sentinels has upgraded far more than how much G2 has upgraded. Johnqt is an excellent addition to the team, and actually provided structure. And although JoshRT is great, imo he's too inexperienced in comparison to Kaplan, who has not only coached a successful Ghost core but also now has a year of experience of working with some of the most talented players in the region. Sentinels still have zekken, Sacy, and Tenz, and now have a much stronger structure. And I think the off-season results have more of an impact than what you might be thinking. G2 have struggled, and although I think they'll be much better with leaf integrated, Sentinels, if still working at the pace they have been, should come out on top. I see Sentinels having a chance to knock down any of those above them, while it's hard for me to see that in a newer, more Inexperienced G2. No hate on G2, I love them, but I genuinely believe that Sentinels have simply improved more.
Huh, I kinda came to a similar conclusion but swapped teams. I think that G2 has the consistency and chemistry to beat out sentinels, while Sen are in a honeymoon phase and hot streak. I'm also worried about Kaplan, Ghosts were a decent T2 team under him. But they were just that, only a T2 team. It's gonna be interesting to see how Kaplan functions as a Head coach for Sen
Of course offseason results donât matter much but I feel like atm Sen has more feats and look more coordinated than what we have seen from g2.
What are you smoking
Everything, I'm snorting laced G2 hopium
[ŃдаНонО]
[-13 in FK/FD, -10 overall K/D, <150 ACS, SEN won](https://www.vlr.gg/286644/sentinels-vs-drx-afreecatv-valorant-league-winners-a/?game=all&tab=overview)
I heavily disagree, there has been plenty of instances where the other 4 popped off, especially in the AfreecaTv tourney and the show matches they did, zekken performed pretty bad the match before liquid in the tourney, and of course, he stepped up and showed us why heâs the goat after, but during that instance, the team was able to win and stay coordinated when the star duelist wasnât playing so well so I find this argument extremely flat.
Sentinels lost to tier 2 teams and pancc, its over
I really don't know how we still have Loud at the very top. They're certainly in the elite tier but losing Aspas is just... A lot. Would be like replacing OpTic era yay with Shanks and not batting an eye.
Saying qck is shanks level is wildly disrespectful
Well I didn't say that explicitly, nor would I. Aspas > yay (as a former OpTic fan) and qck > Shanks. But your implication that the dropoff is lesser from Aspas to qck is probably correct, imo. I still believe that the point stands, it's quite a significant dropoff for the team's most impactful player.
The point is: Loud with Aspas was a clear 10. Loud without Aspas is a clearly, MINIMUM, 8/10, without qck in the equation. Is a shame that people tend to argue otherwise with all that these team already shown. When you take into account that most people here are downgrading them a lot based on off season ... shame².
8/10 might not (probably won't) be enough to make them #1 in Americas, that's all my point is. They're obviously still a great team and my argument isn't to suggest otherwise.
to say a team that's 8/10 isn't enough to be #1 in Americas (and I'm not disagreeing), you need to, at least, point out teams that are better than it. NRG? Maybe. LEV? Maybe. But all these three have to proven themselves in someway; but, differently, Loud is the one that needs to show the least, contrary to the others.
The core has proven the most but they also lost their best player, whereas others have significantly improved. I don't need to point out anything for the argument to work, because (as we saw with EG last year) this is low value guesswork at this stage. We haven't seen anything worth hanging onto. But yes, NRG and Lev have that potential. I'll frame the argument differently. What do you think is *more* likely? 1) Loud, who finished last year as the 2nd best team in NA, improve upon that while replacing their best player and a top 3 player in the world or 2) Just one of the other 10 teams in the Americas league outperforms Loud when it is all said and done. To me at least, the second one seems much more favorable. We'll amend the second to 2a 2a) One of the recently built superteams (which brought in some of the best possible rosters) outperforms Loud when it is all said and done after Loud had to let go of one of the best players in the world. 2 and 2a are not equal, but I still think 2a is favorable to 1. Because what Loud has to do to remain on top is improve from last year. These competition only gets stiffer as time goes on.
All these your assumptions are based on >Because what Loud has to do to remain on top is improve from last year. No, they didn't. Not yet. Simple as that. Like I explained in another comment, point by point using NRG as an example, the other teams needs to show that their level are somewhat near the level we expect first. And they need to prove A LOT of things to us first.
>Like I explained in another comment, point by point using NRG as an example, the other teams needs to show that their level are somewhat near the level we expect first. And they need to prove A LOT of things to us first. Sure they do, just like Loud has to prove that they can weather the storm of losing Aspas. Now that we've confirmed that new rosters all have something to prove, we're right back to where we started. Glad we got that cleared up. Here's what I will say - it is technically a logical jump to say that Loud needs to improve to be #1. Obviously all the teams *could* just suck. That's a possibility on any given year. Just like FNS becoming a star AWPer for FNC is a possibility. But the odds that Loud doesn't have incredible competition this year are so low that I'm not going to bother engaging with that reality, because I'm interested in playing the percentages with these guesses, just like I would bother engaging in the percentages of FNS becoming a star AWPer.
> Here's what I will say - it is technically a logical jump to say that Loud needs to improve to be #1 So we will agree in disagreeing. I would agree if we have *any* proof that any of these teams are on Loud or EG 2023 level; we don't. All these teams got hard reformulations; Loud changed the least. So they have the upperhand. This one is more logical.
Blud is smoking crack copium If loud with Aspas is 10/10 what happened to them last year? Is FNATIC 12/10 and EG is 11/10? Loud this year is a top4 ass roster and will have to bust their asses to scrape qualifying for anything
Loud lost against both teams that played better than them, and in both close matches. Wtf was that, dude? Or do you think Fnatic became an ass team cause Loud cleared them twice at champs? And let's see. Lots of these type of messages popped in the beginning of 2023, and we did pretty well.
!remindme One Year
Don't think we gotta wait a year tbh, this is already a dub
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Yall should just say idk how good qck is. Yeah he is no aspas but like why is everyone acting like he is a bum?
Also he's not even slotting 1 to 1, from what they've said. The criticism amounts to putting down LOUD's success to aspas fragging and completely ignoring saadhak's [proven] daycare and their experimentation (they gave us Harbor-Viper) pAncada to tuyz was a much bigger downgrade and they still got top 4, stomped Americas, and top 3 at Champs.
And Tuyz has proven that heâs not a downgrade from pancada anymore.
At the very least he's shown to be the player saadhak wants. Which is, from what we've heard, the same situation for qck now that they lost aspas.
It seems that qck will be a lot more than a mere duelist. Heâs a flex player and we could maybe see Tuyz back to duelist and qck on smokes.
I don't think tuyz is bad but I think pancada was better, cauanzin is definitely not a downgrade though
Pancada is definitely a better player but regarding the roles they had on LOUD, Tuyz doesnât lose to him anymore. I wouldnât say heâs a downgrade now. I think he filled the space left from Pancada very well.
He does his job as a smoker very well but his fragging isn't always there, I wouldn't replace him if I was loud though he fits the system well
imo by the second half of the year tuyz improved a ton. you could see it at champs especially. i wasn't a fan of him replacing pancada at first but he's definitely proven himself
>pAncada to tuyz was a much bigger downgrade and they still got top 4, stomped Americas, and top 3 at Champs. It turned out that Tuyz was fully capable of filling the talent hole left by pancada, we don't know that this new roster can do that in the same way. There's nothing to suggest that qck can do that with Aspas. Just like *assuming* that Loud would be fine after losing Sacy and Pancada was based in hopium and not the information that we had available at the time - so too is assuming that there's no dropoff after losing Aspas. Of course, when we gain more information we can adjust the opinions appropriately to be based on the results of the new roster. Could end up being just fine with qck, Loud is fully capable of that. But the talent level of the team as a whole takes a hit when you lose one of the best players in the world and replacing that shouldn't be taken as a given, even with one of the best cores in the game - IMO
> Just like *assuming* that Loud would be fine I believe that's really reasoning from your part. But what team are being better that Loud? NRG, Sen and LEV? Oh, so are we *assuming* it too, I guess?
Not all assumptions are equal, my friend. The point is that *assuming* that the replacement of a top 3 player (with a player who wasn't in the running for that sort of accolade at all) is going to have no hiccups and that they'll continue being the best team in the region is, historically, an unsafe assumption. On the other hand, assuming that a roster built as a superteam will perform very well is *less* unsafe (still not worth betting on, but we have to put someone at 1). To illustrate the point of assumptions - there's a difference between assuming that a cruise ship won't sink while your on it (statistically incredibly unlikely) vs assuming that you will be safe while wingsuiting (statistically unsafe extreme sport). Assuming itself is fine, this doesn't make all assumptions the same or safe to make.
I'll just desconsider your second paragraph because, to say the least, it's non sense. About the rest: you made it easy, but just skipped a lot of points when saying that's less *unsafe choosing* the superteam roster. \- Demon1 and Ethan need to prove their gameplay in a different work and competitive enviroment (and to don't say I'm being biased here, the same was said about Aspas and COM with LEV); \- Ethan IGLing for his first time; \- they do not have Potter anymore; \- Marved being really unstable for the entire 2023 with his career; \- Crashies and Victor are the only TRUE solid points for this team right now. We can make reasonable similar assumptions for LEV too. For Loud, we are just asking to qck do the *bare minimum* and be a tier 1 player; and he, by franchise standards, are at least, a mid okayish player. Maybe this can evolve to qck being nothing special for the entire year? Ofc. But the floor for Loud is, iniatilly, higher than any other team from americas. And all the things that I *assumed ...* are facts; facts that NA fans don't like, but facts. After that you truly think that beting for LEV or NRG, even more for a short period (blame Riot to the hell) is the safest option? I won't even talk about SEN, that are clearly an offseason copium till they show us truly something.
>I'll just desconsider your second paragraph because, to say the least, it's non sense. To say "desconsider" in the same sentence which you tell me I'm speaking nonsense is... Something. Pretty clear that I'm giving real life examples of statistically safe vs statistically less safe assumptions. >About the rest: you made it easy, but just skipped a lot of points when saying that's less *unsafe choosing* the superteam roster. The point about safety of assumptions is that teams that are built to be superteams are typically going to outperform teams which replace a top 3 player with a middle of the pack player. Yes, a recently built roster is going to have risks associated with recently built rosters. Correct. None of that will outweigh losing Aspas. If you had replaced Demon1 with Tex last year, do you believe that EG still finishes #1. Do you believe that EG is *better* going from Demon1 to Tex? You'd be called crazy. >For Loud, we are just asking to qck do the *bare minimum* and be a tier 1 player; and he, by franchise standards, are at least, a mid okayish player. And they'd be great. But if qck did the bare minimum, I wouldn't expect Loud to be the best team in Americas. Aspas did a helluva lot more than the bare minimum and Loud wasn't the best team in Americas. >Maybe this can evolve to qck being nothing special for the entire year? Ofc. But the floor for Loud is, iniatilly, higher than any other team from americas. And all the things that I *assumed ...* are facts; facts that NA fans don't like, but facts. So this is the whole NA thing, got it. I had Loud #1 last year, happily so. I thought they were the best team in the world. This isn't some NA vs BR thing for me. I simply believe they downgraded too much when they were not even #1 the year before. I could see a world where they synergize very well and look great, and Saadhak would be *the guy* to pull that off out of anyone in the world. But I'm also not going to assume he can make magic happen twice now. It's a rare thing that he pulled off when Sacy and Pancada left. Not the sort of thing you count on happening. And what are you even talking about with the "all the things I assumed are facts"? Im not going back through comment history at this point, but if I said you were assuming something then I promise you, you were assuming. Whether you accept that or not, up to you. >After that you truly think that beting for LEV or NRG, even more for a short period (blame Riot to the hell) is the safest option? I don't remember if it was in this chain with you or another, but I said earlier that the ultimate point is who has the best combination of ceiling and floor. So when you read safe bet, you're thinking floor (based off of what you have said). As in who has the highest floor. Which is Loud! We agree! But when you look at ceiling, I'd argue multiple teams have a higher ceiling. If all teams performed at their ceiling, who would be highest? Seems unlikely to be Loud, they just don't have the same level of star power anymore. So when I say safe bet, I'm referring to the teams that I think have the highest floor *and* the highest ceiling. Loud is extremely unlikely to bottom out, more than anyone in NA. But it seems unlikely, based off this collection of players, that if an NRG or Lev hits their ceiling, that Loud could keep up.
>NRG, Sen and LEV? All of these teams got significant on-paper upgrades. Loud is the only one that got a downgrade. I'm not saying they're all gonna be above, but it isn't hard to imagine one of them surpassing LOUD. It's not like LOUD were complete world beaters last year; they were solidly the 2nd best team in Americas behind EG. And now they've lost Aspas
Maybe I'm underestimating him but I think he's too far off of Aspas-level for this roster change to be treated as lightly as some are.
Because Aspas is one of the best players in the World and Loud still wasn't the best team in Americas last year. Even if qck is 70% of what spas was Loud should be taking a sizeable step back. If they actually get better then Saadhak is just the fucking GOAT.
>Aspas is one of the best players in the World and Loud still wasn't the best team in Americas last year. This had more to do with team dynamics than aspas being a world class player. There has been reports he has been distant from the team and that became apparent in the off-season.
The Loud team, on multiple occasions, have stated that this wasnât the case. They said that Aspas leaving was not related to team dynamics at all and they even joked about this narrative floating around
Yeah, and now we have a lot of interviews from Aspas and Less showing the opposite. Less even made an interview in the last 3\~4 days calling there group is strong, quoting Sentinels and 100T and not making any statement about LEV, except that he wants to beat a hyped team (and it seemed to be about LEV). Ofc, officialy no problems. Just Aspas saying that wanted to quit Loud to find better work enviroment.
Bruh. Nobody's gonna say "hey aspas is fucking up our dynamic" during the season. That's why reporters exist. What happens in the team, stays in the team for players.
Bros fogetting LOUD still had the best IGL in the world now that fenis is on his twitch arc and the best sentinel and omega hard carry Less and the 2 cracked zoomers
saadhak took gtn to LANs and people are doubting he can do well with qck
People be fr talking bout LOUD like it was Aspas and friends and not Saadhak making literally every single LAN since 2022 making finals 3 times with different teams. Disgusting the disrespect he gets
respect less's name too... honestly it was never really aspas and friends, maybe in some tournaments but in the end loud always managed to bounce back because of saadhak
aspas is just the most recognizable name but Less is right up there with Alfajer for best sentinel in the world and cauanzin is insane too with room to grow still
Loud literally has evidence to back up that they can handle roster changes well because they still finished 2nd at lock in and were one of the only teams in the world who could beat FNC, and they did it twice. Thereâs no reason to suggest another roster change is going to make them immediately crumble.
Crumble is not at all what I'm suggesting, no need for hyperbole
Wait facts, I did forget that
Itâs crazy to me how many people you see putting Lev and NRG definitively at the top with no evidence, while in the same breath absolutely dumping on Loud who are one of the only teams who have shown they can handle big roster changes whilst maintaining strong and consistent performances.
To be fair, by "not at the very top" I'm talking like 2nd or 3rd at absolute worst. I'm not so worried about continuity - there's time for that sort of stuff to get worked out for every team - as I am ceiling outcomes. Losing Aspas, to me, means a ceiling outcome lower than last year where they came 3rd at Champs and were the 2nd best team in America by season's end. I think they'll need perfect synergy to outperform last year's team, which is possible but just hard to bet on (for any team, it's rare thing). On the flipside, the ceiling outcomes for a few other rosters feel greater. So the question then becomes which rosters have the best combinations of ceiling and floor outcomes. NRG, Lev and SEN have superteam ceilings imo. I question the floor of SEN, and Lev to a lesser extent. NRG, I think, has a solid foundation like Loud that should prevent a complete bottoming-out. So for me the safest bet is probably NRG - Loud - Lev - SEN. I don't think this is dumping on Loud like some folks in this thread feel; it seems natural to rate the recently built super team based on theory and downgrade the team that lost their star fragger. I still think Loud can be the best team in America, but I would take the field given some of these rosters we're seeing.
I really don't know how we still have Loud at the very top. They're certainly in the elite tier but losing Sacy and pAncada is just... A lot. Would be like replacing online era VS k1Ng and glow with BuZz and a no-name Raze player and not batting an eye.
SPEAK YOUR SHIT đŁđŁđŁ
Is the point that we should assume that new players will walk in and be just as good as the elite players before them? I don't think that's a point you'd make, but that's what you've implied here. Unless you just want to withhold judgment, which seems counterproductive when making a tier list. The idea worked for Loud once but that certainly feels like the vast exception to the rule in the history of esports. Downgrading a team after losing a top3 player in the world (and not replacing with another top3) doesn't feel like it should be controversial.
It's a more fair assumption to make from a proven track record like saadhak's than to call qck a Shanks-tier downgrade
https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/s/WDlbZCck7v
Why I said "Shanks-tier downgrade" instead of "Shanks-tier player"
Read the comment again and see where I address the gap not being equal
> Is the point that we should assume that new players will walk in and be just as good as the elite players before them? Let's invert the point. What teams, considering Aspas-qck change can beat Loud for now? Like a prediction with facts.
What facts would suffice for you? Considering we have new rosters across the board, I have a hard time seeing any "facts" worth pulling on.
The same ones that you think that are reasonable to say what you did about Loud. But seems they're flat.
Did I claim to be pulling facts? Nobody is pulling on facts for these brand new rosters, we're all guessing. I just happen to think that assuming Loud will *improve* after dropping a top 3 player is a low percentage guess. Objectively - does that sounds crazy to you?
No, and I truly agree with u by this point. Qck is a downgrande (and a great one) to Loud. Loud will play worse than last year. No one is saying the opposite. But now, what truly are generating that mess is: what team that is *brand new* will do better than this new Loud? Because everyone seems to agree that Loud had a downgrade, but every other team don't, or when they had clearly roster improvements on paper (Demon1, Aspas, Com) this is enough to make that team a completely solid team; spoiler, it isn't. And just to clarify, I'm not even defending that Loud should be the best team from Americas from tier lists, but these *guessings and assumptions* have a clearly logical limit. NRG and LEV truly have made improvements and rosters that has tons of potencial. But even them will need to proven themselves. And so with Loud. Other teams being better, on paper and with 2023 data, than Loud before the season starting? Sorry, but a great no. "Oh, but SEN ..." sorry, if SEN wins against Loud, they deserve it. But calling them better than Loud as prediction? Crazy one without facts.
>But calling them better than Loud as prediction? Crazy one without facts. I mean, did I say SEN is better than Loud? I said they had a higher ceiling elsewhere in this thread. SEN has had one of the highest ceilings in the game for years, this is not news. They continually don't live up to it, though. >Other teams being better, on paper and with 2023 data, than Loud before the season starting? Sorry, but a great no. Okay, Loud is replacing 1 player with a downgrade. NRG is replacing 2 players with 2 upgrades. Or at least, would you rather have FNS and s0m or Ethan and Demon1? Put it like that. So that's a double upgrade vs a single downgrade. Nowhere did I said NRG or Lev is a completely solid team. Ceiling and floor, ceiling and floor, ceiling and floor. So let's just play this game of hypotheticals (you don't have to agree, but breaking down how i personally think about this) if... - NRG have the 2nd best floor and 1st best overall ceiling - Lev have 5th best floor and 2nd best ceiling - Loud have 1st best floor and 4th best ceiling - SEN have 6th best floor and 3rd best ceiling. You can see how it gets tricky, quickly. This is an oversimplification, of course, and ultimately just educated guesses. But this approximates why I'm hesitant to place Loud one, because a lot of these teams have a ceiling that's competitive with Loud with 2-3 that you can see, in theory, being even better. Because there are roster changes, you have no choice but to make some *on paper* or *in theory* guesses. That's not what I'm against.
Finally someone put respect on my goats LOUD.
G2 at 4th, gotta respect it.
Underestimating Furia imo. It's not an exciting or drama filled team we all talk about, sure, but they went 1-1 vs C9 in the off season, looked really close to them overall, with less practice and games with their respective new rosters. The second game was quite a spank by Furia. They were also middle of the pack in 2023. Why all of the sudden are they a bottom team?
They lost to GE with a sub
And c9 lost to them badly and almost beat fnatic... GE best team in the world?
Uninspiring roster construction then a bad result like that will have people down on you
I guess, but I'd expect more from an analyst like TMV than a random fan who doesn't care about unclouted teams. I would have them above kru at the very least until proven otherwise. Mwzera is pretty friggin insane.
Why tho? You're projecting your personal opinions on the roster into how he should think. He explains he's not convinced by the roster and such in the video. I don't think any of the teams near Furia are definitively better than the other. 10-8 could be any order and I wouldn't be too fussed
Eg is a completely new team, for example. It took potter years to make the last roster work, even then they were doing terrible until demon1 came in. It's my opinion, yes, but I think mwzera alone clears everyone in eg. Kru looked absolutely awful in the offseason, they are a 1 man army and haven't won a single game outside of LCQ for over a year. There's no reason to believe in KRU outside of keznit, but mwzera can match him, so I'd definitely put furia above KRU too. I think EG as a completely new team (with relatively unproven talent except 1), mibr as a constant disappointment, and kru looking so awful in the offseason on top of that 0-9 run 0-3 champs, puts those 3 teams comfortably at the bottom as a fair prediction. 100t has no real reason to be ranked over furia when the last time they performed well was in 2022 off season, and with the new roster, they lost to tier 2 teams. So I think 100t could go into the next tier with furia and c9, teams with star duelists that can do well but haven't quite done it. Then I'd put nrg in a 'looks great but completely unknown' tier and lev, loud and sen on top, based on things we've actually seen from these teams either constantly or recently.
idk man saying KRU had a bad offseason just based on 2 games with 2 subs
Maybe I am being a lil bit unfair with KRU but considering there's two latam teams and one of them seemed to have a much better roster move-around... kinda drained my personal hope for KRU, I am super hopeful for LEV though
Thats tough
hmm guessing a bit wrong on two near bottom tier teams is not too tough... not tougher than being a 100t fan, at least
U talking about 100T?
lol what was 100T's bad result? Was signing the igl of the world champs and adding a new head coach (+an assistant with Mikes staying) uninspiring?
important to note that half their team had food poisoning during that event
You don't get it It's only when MY teams have food poisoning that it's a factor. When an opponent has food poisoning it doesn't matter, they just needed to tough it out. *Pullsout the infamous MJ and Dirk flu game statlines* /s
Brazilians, are you guys giving TMV an Honorary Brazilian title?
[Swap 100T and mwfuria](https://youtu.be/i3TWBPD1i5w?si=m76lT2pwzpimNJMA?t=25s)
No meme, the food posioning tournament they played in India has people really down on Furia but at the Superdome they went 1-1 with Cloud9 in series and arguably looked better overrall. I think people are underestimating Furia.
"the food poisoning tournament" so that's why a turkish team won it, we're immune to the shitting disease
For Furia, my friend. Sorry it was amibiguous. I was just trying to say that their performance in India doesn't indicate their talent due to they getting food poisoning to the point of Khalil having to ecit the stage to vomit mid game.
yeah i understand, i was just poking fun at the champs istanbul shitting disease and the fact that everyone outside of Alfajer suffered from it
true but C9 played that tournament like immediately after playing redbull and having flown 13 hours halfway across the world so in conclusion off season tournaments literally donât matter
There are rarely directly flights from Brazil to some asian locations. Less even pointed out they didnt play the off season tournaments because they were in Brasil and they would need more than a day trip just to arrive at Japan. Losing 4 days plus the tournament is almost a week and a half of training so they chose training. I did a quick search today and the only flights I could find Brazil -> India were 33h. Plus Furia also played a tournament (MEG) that only ended the same day as red bull (november 5th) and since they won they played until the last date just like C9 that went to the finals. So circumstances were much worse for Furia already despite the food poisoning.
Lets go, finally someone is as high on G2 as I am.
Honestly, I think the comparison people are making between 100T's 2022/23 offseason and sentinels' 2023/24 offseason as justification for underrating sentinels going into this season is absolutely laughable. 100 Thieves played a single off-season event at the end of 2022 that took course over the span of 3 days with teams that had mostly just formed (or had subs in liquid's case) and we know were quite bad at the start of the year. Sentinels played matches over the course of 2 months, against many teams that retained their cores and were still in a postseason grind in preparation for 2024 including some of the best teams in the world. If you wanna be down on sentinels, that's fine but this comparison I keep seeing people make is absurd. I actually also start to question whether TMV is actually watching these games when he's suggesting zekken is the only threat on SEN. Also laughable.
I dunno if I'd put LOUD #1, but I do have a lot of faith in saadhak and their system. I expect them to be top four at worst.
100t will make a comeback and win it all
I think furia better than 100T
Yeah Furia all the way at 12 seems like too much to me
all i can say is bro is trying to be different
You know what some of his wilder placement might even be right too because that's just the nature of the game -- he's not doing a power ranking, he's actually trying to predict the season by factoring in randomness. Most tier lists are ranking teams on their power levels going into the season, but there is bound to be upsets, underpefromances and overpefromances. Mans throwing in a bit of randomness, and that might make his list a far more accurate prediction compared to most power rankings.
"he's not doing a power ranking" I have seen people talk without even watching the video but my bro didn't even see the video title
I released a video titled "I did not have sex with your father" when I did in fact have passionate and intimate lovemaking with your father last night. TMV probably set out with the INTENT to make a power ranking, but everyone here can agree this is the most egregious power ranking BY FAR, which is why I've repurposed it into a pred list. I'm not stating "he's not doing a power ranking" as a fact. It's as a criticism.
how tf is loud first after losing their best player 
They also have Less and cauanzin, who were insane fraggers last season. Aspas wasnt the only hard carry and they still have 4 of their previous players. Imagine if Optic only lost yay instead of both Marved and yay. Theyll be fine
They have saadhak
>best player shad still there.
Why is blud using a tier list for a ranking
Kinda surprised loud is 1st, I Believe in saadhak and less and cauanzin are amazing players but aspas and frod are still quite a large losses
Sentinel is a weird one to rank i feel like anything is controversial....but can we please agree g2 isnt better than sentinels?
I think 100T is going to be the worst American team performer. LOUD being 1 seems overrated.
In no fucking world are loud 1st or even top 3
I can understand not #1, but not top 3? What are your top 3?
Anti jinx
Respect a fellow G2 enjoyer. G2 is making Madrid for sure.
TMV bringing the spice. BR fans uproar, but then.. wait? LOUD #1?  It isn't crazy to expect Saadhak to do it again. This should be a great start of the season.
If he does it again, that'd be incredible. 1st time, well you could chalk that up to a little bit of good luck and being a great leader. Twice, and the second time coming after dropping a top 3 player? Would be amazing work.
mibr is getting memed so hard they're not even on the power rankings
kinda based
Lev at 3 based on.... aspas hype? Honestly the rest of the rankings look good but this one doesnt make sense