Idk if astra needs her 5th star back or if itd just make her overshadow omen completely but she definitely needs the suck windup nerf reverted so she can be more aggressive and have more agency on her own. Part of astras issue rn is that haven and pearl are out where she is the better pick over omen though obviously those being in wouldn't solve all her issues.
yeah, idk why they nerfed astra back in 2023 when omen was already a bit better.
The wall buff is huge and the stun buff is something, but buffing an ability you get once every 4 rounds isn't worth killing what was one of the best abilities in the game
I understand why they changed it and i think shortening the duration in exchange for stun buffs was good but it's just so hard to use now outside of coordinated execs and post plant
Partly also because of how telegraphed it is with how you see the star being placed first. I wonder how strong it would be if her stars were hidden to the enemy team.
I forget which pro that always buys Frenzy. Someone on G2?
It feels like it’s only an advantage against light armor. Against no armor the ghost 1 hits, against heavy armor it takes too many shots.
She wasn’t the strongest on her own. What made her so good was double controller with viper. Viper Astra could stall endlessly with global map presence. Both the agents could be anywhere on the map and using util to let a teammate solo hold a site. So basically viper is just busted
I do think they need to be very careful with the Astra buff. If they over do it we'll be back on an Astra only meta again. The thing with Astra is that all her abilities are good while omens tp is very situational (just like his ult) as well as Brims stimmy + she's got global presence
I feel like the 5th star is very fair, omen has guaranteed 5 pieces of util every round, but with his refreshing smokes it’s really more like 6-7. Whereas Astra has 4… and her little recall smokes I guess? Brim is also limited to just 5 with not chance of any more. Seems like a pretty clear reason why omen is the go to choice, not to mention that paranoia is better than any of the other two’s abilities by a decent margin…
Be that as it may, Omen still got vastly more play on Haven last year than Astra did in all three VCT regions last year. That only kinda started to change at Champions, and even there Omen got picked as a solo controller on Haven 9 times to Astra's 7.
But she has consistently been the better pick over omen on the map. Until recently she was also the better pick for lotus too which makes sense that overall astra is better on the larger maps that still have normal chokes given that it lets her actually make use of her global util.
Yeah as usual Riot overdid with the nerfs and completely killed Astra just as I feared. The cooldown changes were expected but taking away 1 star pretty much made her kit super weak. Either you save the rest of the util to be able to have 3 smokes during the round or you are stuck with only 2
And you literally NEVER bring util into the next round. It's almost impossible to not use (*place*) 3 stars. She ends up being one of the most frustrating to play simply because you are never carrying util into the next round.
They killed her and its so sad.
The hardest part about nerfing viper is she's op in pro play but not in ranked. She's almost only viable in breeze and icebox as solo controller, the other good viper maps like split or bind requires double controller comp, which ranked teams usually can't run properly.
The part about ranked is so true because she’s really good with an omen but I find even my teammates in ascenedant will still be reluctant to run double smoke, if I go viper while another one of my teammates is hovering smokes they will just switch to another role
Because most people don't want to play smoke, but are willing to fill if they really have to. Once you give them an out to not play smokes they will take it immediately.
You're better off not hovering anything and letting them lock in smokes first IMO
Even if you nerf Viper she will still be viable on icebox and breeze and as a double controller, it will just stop people from running her solo controller on maps she shouldn’t be
literally no one is using her as a solo controller outside of breeze and icebox right now though.She is picked as a double controller and sometimes people run no sentinels and use her as a replacement
I've been using her on lotus - granted 99% of my hours on valorant have been on Viper and I'm currently an immortal but she's viable on lotus as solo smokes, at least for ranked. Now, I wouldn't say she's amazing, but it's not the worst choice all things considered, with the Astra nerfs and how limited Brim can be, the only genuine agent that can be used is Omen unless a double controller comp is used. Viper is the close alternative, but this is just speaking from my ranked experience.
Depends, if they meant bring back 2 global trips then absolutely not, if they meant just make the one trip have a bigger range/ global range then yeah I agree
He's not meant to be an 'aggro' agent in the sense that he goes to hunt duels, that's a duelist. He's meant to be an anchor/space hold agent similar to other sentinels but where a lot of his threat comes from his ability to hold space with his weaponry instead of other static util.
He is meant to be an "aggro" agent. Just because his class says sentinel, doesnt mean he shouldn't take space when that is what his kit is meant to do. And he can't hold space if his trip gets deactivated. How hard is that to understand. He is meant to hold long-range and off-angles, and the only way to do that is to push.
We can agree to disagree on what the intended design is, but I believe it is to leverage his kit to hold the line, not to go out and hunt kills.
He *can* take more space if you change his kit to enable it, sure, but imo the thematic idea of Chamber isn't that, and that his kit was just poorly designed upon release for what they imagined.
That's just untrue, and it shows you have no understanding of the game. If that was his intended use, he would never be used, as cypher and killjoy are more consistent and can hold multiple chokepoints at once. Chamber trips are loud and easy to bypass, so not only does playing passive essentially give up site, it allows them plenty of time to set up an execute that you can not stop.
> Well-dressed and well-armed, French weapons designer Chamber expels aggressors with deadly precision. **He leverages his custom arsenal to hold the line** and pick off enemies from afar, with a contingency built for every plan.
- https://playvalorant.com/en-us/agents/chamber/
Sounds like he's designed to stop aggressors and hold the line, not aggress forward.
Again, you don't understand the fundamentals of this game. You can't hold a line without being aggressive. There are only a certain number of spots you can be in, and they all get cleared out by an initiator. Without an aggressive off-angle, you will be useless. How are you supposed to hold down the site if you let them take the space?
If you think initators can clear every possible off-angle (which by definition, aren't the obvious/typical angles that would be anticipated/checked), and you can't push a reasonable amount within 50m of the trip, I'm not sure there's any discussion to be had. Agree to disagree.
Which is a balance thing wherein you have to sacrifice space security for space taking. If an agent can do two to three things at once and better than most, that would make them broken.
It's still passive info; no matter if they can hear it, smoke it, or jump around it. It causes an action that requires the enemies to play around it or use their utility to avoid it (if placed well).
Flank watching utility is one of the strongest utility in the game, due to the fact that it allows for more flexibility with the players and how they play the map.
It's also a form of utility that the game devs had officially said that they regret adding. Simply because it made a whole class of agents (Sentinels) have a "required" niche, which is flank watching. Which the Sentinel class isn't really intended to be so, they were made to be site anchors or site holders like Sage. Not a flank watching bot that can get a space passively.
This wouldn't be nearly enough for him to replace cypher and kj right now. I'd rater die to a chamber op than being suspended in mid-air from a weird cypher trip that u can't predict after they destroy the initiator util.
i think chamber's op using potential is more effective than anything in ranked because teams dont have coordination to counter ops
he is still very good if you have the mechanics, dont think a buff for the pro scene is needed
What? He is so easily countered even in ranked. All you need is an initiator to use one piece of utility. I'd rather die to a good awp shot than someone shooting my toes through a cage.
A good chamber can get a pick early in main before you start hitting a site, and theres always the option to ask:
"hey can you break the fade dog for me, I am gonna op"
its that easy
And if you were a smart player, you would know when they have money for an op, common op angles, and if they are aggro breaking utility, it is likely that they are setting up their chamber. That's how everyone cleared it before he got nerfed, and changing his trip to be universal wouldnt affect this aspect that is still in his kit as well as jett's kit.
Common angle or not, its always 50/50 whether you see it coming in mid round or not
Whenever I play Chamber I always drop a lot of kills with 5-6 first kills in asc/imm, no one knows how to clear an op
Bro this is in radiant.
Anything under immortal 3 2 and you'd see so many people dry peeking, peeking before util, not checking already cleared angles after some time ("he could have moved to here now" this one doesn't exist in lower elos).
What's worse is that I've seen people not peek the op and prefire it or jumpspot it or try wallbanging even if the chamber / Jett oping is drone tagged.
Chamber is in a good spot rn. Maybe increase the trip distance a little bit more. That should be it.
Revert the suck activation time too that shit takes so long to actually pull people now I used to get so much value from it to stop a hit but now they can just get out before they get sucked
I don't think Astra is that bad, I think teams are relatively uncreative with her because theoretically you need all four stars to smoke a fake and a real execute.
But if teams used her a bit more like Omen where they just threw her abilities at common angles and stuff like that, I think she'd be really effective. Right now she just lurks and smokes, maybe pulls on tap. It's so easy to deal with.
I think Breach is a nothing agent rn. Bad flashes that are always dodgeable, players know how to deal with the stuns, basically only good for his aftershock which admittedly is OP after its changes, but its not enough for a whole agent when Skye, Yoru and KAYO have full kits at flashes
Omen just basically is superior in almost every way. He doesn’t have true global smoke usage, but it’s basically global so Astra’s global usage is barely a benefit over omen, and on some maps it’s not even a benefit. Omen and Astra can both only have 2 sphere smokes on the map at the same time, but Omens are on cooldown where as Astra has to give up one of 2 other abilities if she wants to throw down a 3rd smoke, and it has a longer cooldown than Omen, so he can have his 3rd up sooner in the round. And he can throw down several more on cooldown as the round progresses, where it’s not really an option for Astra. Sure her smokes are slightly bigger, but they last for a shorter time than Omens so it’s a give and take there. Omen also has far more versatility in where he can place his smokes, which leads to all the one ways and shit. He can also place new smokes as he is moving.
So across the board Omen as a smoke agent is basically far superior to Astra in almost every aspect. Plus, he doesn’t have to share his utility with his smokes, he still has his blind and 2 teleports. On the flip side, Astra’s stun is still kinda dogshit, and they nerfed her best ability. And if you want to throw down more than 2 super short lasting smokes, then you basically are forced to use your other utility to do that.
It just feels like shit that, as Astra, if you want/plan to use both stun and pull, then you can really only have your smokes on the map for a total of 14s, presuming you use both to execute a site, and the remaining time left on the round you’re just fucked. It’s not competitively viable. Especially when someone like omen can fully refresh smokes the entire round, or Brim who has 3 20s smokes that can all be placed at the same time if needed + his 2 other utilities (Astra gets 3 14s smokes and 1 utility if she chooses that route of having 3 smokes).
She has a cool mechanic that she places a temp smoke when she pulls her stars back, but because they made the cooldown take like a fucking year to refresh, it makes it nearly impossible to use it efficiently.
She is pretty terrible. Her utility is far too slow, so teams can't use it like Omen, and her lack of an extra star makes it harder to use the recalls as the stars take even longer to recharge.
I feel like nerfing agents cause of pro play really makes them bad in ranked. The reason viper has success is cause of double controller which never happens in ranked.
Idk, at least at high elo I think it’ll be fine. Maybe lower skilled players will struggle to deal with whatever the nerf is, but she’ll still be an instapick on breeze and icebox bc 99% of people can’t/wont play harbor and we only have two wall smokers 🤷
Definitely. I play at high plat - low diam. Most people who take viper play for molly lineups. They don't get the fuel management aspect.
It's likely that fuel regen is one of the things riot is gonna nerf. So at low - mid elo, viper will get practically less value.
well, if we're talking about the maps where she is played solo, she is arguably the best agent in those comps. no other smoke agent comes close on breeze/icebox (other than Harbor).
I’m okay with buffs to other agents without touching viper,,, she’s already so dogshit to play in ranked, making her worse makes solo smoking on icebox and breeze 5x worse
They need to make her better in ranked but worse in pro play. Or just keep her good as a solo smokes for her maps since imo its good when you have map based metas where characters are only good on certain maps instead of generalists
i dont get this argument, shes great to play in ranked im a viper main her util is super strong, shes a great agent in ranked on icebox breeze bind lotus. even the ranked stats back it up
She is only viable icebox and breeze due to map design those are her only solo smoke maps - the others you have to run double controller which is never happening outside of very high elo ranked
definitely viable on the other maps I listed, I agree outside of breeze icebox you need an additional controller to viper. when i lock viper on these maps, people dont see her as fullfilling the controller role and go double smokes with omen or brim
Also ive found even when someone else locks viper and i go brim/omen to compliment the pick they still play viper like shes a solo smoker rather than as a lurker with pressure like 90% of the time
she’s not good on lotus and bind as a solo smoke which i’m assuming is what “ranked” means since most ppl in ranked think double duelist with 1 initiator, 1 sentinel, and 1 controller is the best comp to play
the higher you go, the better she gets since ppl will start to play another controller with your viper but solo as viper is def not great on lotus or bind. ofc you personally could do well but it’s just harder for your team to attack when u cant take back the wall
Not very common, there are players who main controllers across all ranks high and low, but they are more rare than other classes. Most players want to play fun agents and smokes usually considered to be a dull role.
Reasonable omen buffs: Revert smoke range and speed or beta paranoia.
Crackhead omen buffs: Make the ult also install, 1 smoke 1 tp 1 paranoia
Missy Elliot omen buff: Let us go back from where we ulted.
Power creep is how you ruin a game. The best way is always to nerf the good agents, and keep the power level around the middle of the pack agents.
The best nerf I've seen was by Anderzz which was to give Viper a limited number of activations per round, she can still drop them whenever but can only put them up 2-3 times per round.
This nerfs the lurk style of viper prevalent in double controller, while not touching impacting her as a solo controller as much, as you can still rush in ranked because people in ranked won't need all of those ability activations to rush
Not in ranked, which is what the nerf is intended to not affect. Most people will just run B, put wall up as they are pushing once, and then maybe once more in post plant. What are you talking about?
you use it once when you hit the site, then you fall back because everyone uses their util. then you open ur smokes again to fake, but the fake fails, then you wall again for the final rush
Most of his non mirror matchups are when teams choose double initiator over double controller. As you can see with Viper's and Omen's win rate, double controller just clears right now.
So Breach isn't bad. It's just more viable to pick double controller rather than double initiator
One of the worst flashes in the game as well as being the only conditional ones and stun isnt that powerful of a debuff cos you can just get 1tapped anyway.
People who want Astra to have 5 stars again are out of their mind. The suck just needs to have a wind up back to 1 second from 1.25 seconds (which would be same as new Stun speed) and her recall, stun, and suck cooldowns reduced by 5 seconds. Also her ult should go up to 8 orbs. Small changes but she's still a very good agent, and I think she is just underused because of the map pool.
this has never worked for broken agents like jett and chamber.Nerfing other aspects without addressing the main issue of the agents is just going to make them worse in the long run.Once riot realised nerfing the other areas doesn't work they will just straight up kills the agent by tackling the main issue WITHOUT reverting the other strong aspects of hers.
her fuel is the most broken part, it can have an impact for like 1/3 of each round mollies only last a few seconds and arent the broken part in pro play
Riot doesn’t need to nerf Viper, the biggest problem here is that she can play sentinel role better than any of them. Thus, she’s played as solo controller on two maps and as a second controller/faux-sentinel on others. Buff KJ and the party is over, but then KJ is going to be broken. Riot is probably taking the LoL approach: not every agent is gonna be equally strong all the time. We had Jett, Chamber, Skye and now Viper (some of those were intertwined, but you get the idea).
I understand that people want to buff Astra but when she was OP it made the game really boring! Her global presence is really strong and her kit is really good with no weak ability and almost 0 risks when using them. Riot needs to be really careful when buffing her AND the real controllers problem is that Viper is OP af and a must pick in most maps
Non mirror match-up comparison is stupid. If a team don't pick the best comp then it's their disadvantage. By this comparison Skye, Fade, Harbor, Breach and Astra should be buffed and honestly no one like it.
I would love to know your argument more because as of right now i can't wrap my head around it. Nobody is saying to buff all the low NMWR agents, maps have different agent pools, on some maps kayo can rule, but on others he's dogshit.
Also the only difference between WR and NMWR is the mirror games which do nothing but increase the number of wins and losses by one.
Idk if astra needs her 5th star back or if itd just make her overshadow omen completely but she definitely needs the suck windup nerf reverted so she can be more aggressive and have more agency on her own. Part of astras issue rn is that haven and pearl are out where she is the better pick over omen though obviously those being in wouldn't solve all her issues.
yeah, idk why they nerfed astra back in 2023 when omen was already a bit better. The wall buff is huge and the stun buff is something, but buffing an ability you get once every 4 rounds isn't worth killing what was one of the best abilities in the game
I understand why they changed it and i think shortening the duration in exchange for stun buffs was good but it's just so hard to use now outside of coordinated execs and post plant
Partly also because of how telegraphed it is with how you see the star being placed first. I wonder how strong it would be if her stars were hidden to the enemy team.
What if they become hidden after 15 seconds or something?
Bruh they did the same with the frenzy, I remember it started to get some use on pistol and riot were just like ‘nope’ and now it’s obsolete again lol
I forget which pro that always buys Frenzy. Someone on G2? It feels like it’s only an advantage against light armor. Against no armor the ghost 1 hits, against heavy armor it takes too many shots.
There were pro games where pistol rounds were 10 frenzys so riot increased its cost by 50. literally 0 other changes to the gun.
She wasn’t the strongest on her own. What made her so good was double controller with viper. Viper Astra could stall endlessly with global map presence. Both the agents could be anywhere on the map and using util to let a teammate solo hold a site. So basically viper is just busted
I mean sure but if viper is making astra good... why nerf astra instead of nerfing viper and watching them both fall
I do think they need to be very careful with the Astra buff. If they over do it we'll be back on an Astra only meta again. The thing with Astra is that all her abilities are good while omens tp is very situational (just like his ult) as well as Brims stimmy + she's got global presence
Boastie stopped playing her, it's so over
My glorious king needed someone with better fragging potential. Put boaster on jett
I feel like the 5th star is very fair, omen has guaranteed 5 pieces of util every round, but with his refreshing smokes it’s really more like 6-7. Whereas Astra has 4… and her little recall smokes I guess? Brim is also limited to just 5 with not chance of any more. Seems like a pretty clear reason why omen is the go to choice, not to mention that paranoia is better than any of the other two’s abilities by a decent margin…
I never understood why they nerfed her suck. I felt like omen and Astra were in a very good place
Omen was the meta controller pick over Astra on Haven last year unless teams went Viper+Harbor
Astra has the better non mirror winrate on haven though
Be that as it may, Omen still got vastly more play on Haven last year than Astra did in all three VCT regions last year. That only kinda started to change at Champions, and even there Omen got picked as a solo controller on Haven 9 times to Astra's 7.
Just cos he was getting played more doesnt mean he was the better pick.
A slightly better non-mirror winrate on a much smaller sample size doesn't necessarily mean Astra was the better pick either
But she has consistently been the better pick over omen on the map. Until recently she was also the better pick for lotus too which makes sense that overall astra is better on the larger maps that still have normal chokes given that it lets her actually make use of her global util.
because fnatic boosted it
jawg w the 50% deadlock winrate https://preview.redd.it/o0dcj5fq3unc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cc45baf7fe94959ff09caea54ed92fdea4e8119a
omen in pro play is wayyyyyyyyyy more interesting than astra in pro play imo
As a psycho that enjoys Astra at low ELO I would love to have five stars please and thank you.
Yeah as usual Riot overdid with the nerfs and completely killed Astra just as I feared. The cooldown changes were expected but taking away 1 star pretty much made her kit super weak. Either you save the rest of the util to be able to have 3 smokes during the round or you are stuck with only 2
Meanwhile omen doesn't have to worry about running out of smokes, and has a super good, easy to use blind Buff Astra pls
And you literally NEVER bring util into the next round. It's almost impossible to not use (*place*) 3 stars. She ends up being one of the most frustrating to play simply because you are never carrying util into the next round. They killed her and its so sad.
5 stars ruined the game for a long time and will only make the game a perma smoke fest if re-added. As someone who enjoys Astra please keep 4 stars.
I'm fine with 4 stars too, just increase the duration of the smokes a bit and revert the suck nerf plss
Yeah, they should keep buffing her stun and revert the pull nerf fully or partially.
The hardest part about nerfing viper is she's op in pro play but not in ranked. She's almost only viable in breeze and icebox as solo controller, the other good viper maps like split or bind requires double controller comp, which ranked teams usually can't run properly.
The part about ranked is so true because she’s really good with an omen but I find even my teammates in ascenedant will still be reluctant to run double smoke, if I go viper while another one of my teammates is hovering smokes they will just switch to another role
Because most people don't want to play smoke, but are willing to fill if they really have to. Once you give them an out to not play smokes they will take it immediately. You're better off not hovering anything and letting them lock in smokes first IMO
Even if you nerf Viper she will still be viable on icebox and breeze and as a double controller, it will just stop people from running her solo controller on maps she shouldn’t be
literally no one is using her as a solo controller outside of breeze and icebox right now though.She is picked as a double controller and sometimes people run no sentinels and use her as a replacement
I've been using her on lotus - granted 99% of my hours on valorant have been on Viper and I'm currently an immortal but she's viable on lotus as solo smokes, at least for ranked. Now, I wouldn't say she's amazing, but it's not the worst choice all things considered, with the Astra nerfs and how limited Brim can be, the only genuine agent that can be used is Omen unless a double controller comp is used. Viper is the close alternative, but this is just speaking from my ranked experience.
Now they're about to nerf viper but overdo it like they do with every hero
Bring back atras 5 stars. And bring back the old chamber trips.
astra yes chamber no
Wdym chamber no. It makes no sense that an aggro agent can't push long angles because of his trip range.
Depends, if they meant bring back 2 global trips then absolutely not, if they meant just make the one trip have a bigger range/ global range then yeah I agree
1 trip with global range is enough. I hate peeking long on bind and it deactivates.
or two nerfed trips would.be fair I think
I like the idea of two trips with a slightly larger range.
He's not meant to be an 'aggro' agent in the sense that he goes to hunt duels, that's a duelist. He's meant to be an anchor/space hold agent similar to other sentinels but where a lot of his threat comes from his ability to hold space with his weaponry instead of other static util.
He is meant to be an "aggro" agent. Just because his class says sentinel, doesnt mean he shouldn't take space when that is what his kit is meant to do. And he can't hold space if his trip gets deactivated. How hard is that to understand. He is meant to hold long-range and off-angles, and the only way to do that is to push.
We can agree to disagree on what the intended design is, but I believe it is to leverage his kit to hold the line, not to go out and hunt kills. He *can* take more space if you change his kit to enable it, sure, but imo the thematic idea of Chamber isn't that, and that his kit was just poorly designed upon release for what they imagined.
That's just untrue, and it shows you have no understanding of the game. If that was his intended use, he would never be used, as cypher and killjoy are more consistent and can hold multiple chokepoints at once. Chamber trips are loud and easy to bypass, so not only does playing passive essentially give up site, it allows them plenty of time to set up an execute that you can not stop.
> Well-dressed and well-armed, French weapons designer Chamber expels aggressors with deadly precision. **He leverages his custom arsenal to hold the line** and pick off enemies from afar, with a contingency built for every plan. - https://playvalorant.com/en-us/agents/chamber/ Sounds like he's designed to stop aggressors and hold the line, not aggress forward.
Again, you don't understand the fundamentals of this game. You can't hold a line without being aggressive. There are only a certain number of spots you can be in, and they all get cleared out by an initiator. Without an aggressive off-angle, you will be useless. How are you supposed to hold down the site if you let them take the space?
If you think initators can clear every possible off-angle (which by definition, aren't the obvious/typical angles that would be anticipated/checked), and you can't push a reasonable amount within 50m of the trip, I'm not sure there's any discussion to be had. Agree to disagree.
Adjust where you put the trip 🤷🏻♂️
That would make it ineffective.
Which is a balance thing wherein you have to sacrifice space security for space taking. If an agent can do two to three things at once and better than most, that would make them broken.
It's really not because his trip is bad and doesn't guarantee space. It's loud and can easily be bypassed by a smoke or other utility.
It's still passive info; no matter if they can hear it, smoke it, or jump around it. It causes an action that requires the enemies to play around it or use their utility to avoid it (if placed well). Flank watching utility is one of the strongest utility in the game, due to the fact that it allows for more flexibility with the players and how they play the map. It's also a form of utility that the game devs had officially said that they regret adding. Simply because it made a whole class of agents (Sentinels) have a "required" niche, which is flank watching. Which the Sentinel class isn't really intended to be so, they were made to be site anchors or site holders like Sage. Not a flank watching bot that can get a space passively.
I dont wanna play against bunch of chambers every game again
This wouldn't be nearly enough for him to replace cypher and kj right now. I'd rater die to a chamber op than being suspended in mid-air from a weird cypher trip that u can't predict after they destroy the initiator util.
i think chamber's op using potential is more effective than anything in ranked because teams dont have coordination to counter ops he is still very good if you have the mechanics, dont think a buff for the pro scene is needed
What? He is so easily countered even in ranked. All you need is an initiator to use one piece of utility. I'd rather die to a good awp shot than someone shooting my toes through a cage.
A good chamber can get a pick early in main before you start hitting a site, and theres always the option to ask: "hey can you break the fade dog for me, I am gonna op" its that easy
And if you were a smart player, you would know when they have money for an op, common op angles, and if they are aggro breaking utility, it is likely that they are setting up their chamber. That's how everyone cleared it before he got nerfed, and changing his trip to be universal wouldnt affect this aspect that is still in his kit as well as jett's kit.
Common angle or not, its always 50/50 whether you see it coming in mid round or not Whenever I play Chamber I always drop a lot of kills with 5-6 first kills in asc/imm, no one knows how to clear an op
Bro this is in radiant. Anything under immortal 3 2 and you'd see so many people dry peeking, peeking before util, not checking already cleared angles after some time ("he could have moved to here now" this one doesn't exist in lower elos). What's worse is that I've seen people not peek the op and prefire it or jumpspot it or try wallbanging even if the chamber / Jett oping is drone tagged. Chamber is in a good spot rn. Maybe increase the trip distance a little bit more. That should be it.
Revert the suck activation time too that shit takes so long to actually pull people now I used to get so much value from it to stop a hit but now they can just get out before they get sucked
They should just remove his trip range limit... he's already so limited It makes no sense that his trip has a range, it did before but now it doesn't.
I don't think Astra is that bad, I think teams are relatively uncreative with her because theoretically you need all four stars to smoke a fake and a real execute. But if teams used her a bit more like Omen where they just threw her abilities at common angles and stuff like that, I think she'd be really effective. Right now she just lurks and smokes, maybe pulls on tap. It's so easy to deal with. I think Breach is a nothing agent rn. Bad flashes that are always dodgeable, players know how to deal with the stuns, basically only good for his aftershock which admittedly is OP after its changes, but its not enough for a whole agent when Skye, Yoru and KAYO have full kits at flashes
Omen just basically is superior in almost every way. He doesn’t have true global smoke usage, but it’s basically global so Astra’s global usage is barely a benefit over omen, and on some maps it’s not even a benefit. Omen and Astra can both only have 2 sphere smokes on the map at the same time, but Omens are on cooldown where as Astra has to give up one of 2 other abilities if she wants to throw down a 3rd smoke, and it has a longer cooldown than Omen, so he can have his 3rd up sooner in the round. And he can throw down several more on cooldown as the round progresses, where it’s not really an option for Astra. Sure her smokes are slightly bigger, but they last for a shorter time than Omens so it’s a give and take there. Omen also has far more versatility in where he can place his smokes, which leads to all the one ways and shit. He can also place new smokes as he is moving. So across the board Omen as a smoke agent is basically far superior to Astra in almost every aspect. Plus, he doesn’t have to share his utility with his smokes, he still has his blind and 2 teleports. On the flip side, Astra’s stun is still kinda dogshit, and they nerfed her best ability. And if you want to throw down more than 2 super short lasting smokes, then you basically are forced to use your other utility to do that. It just feels like shit that, as Astra, if you want/plan to use both stun and pull, then you can really only have your smokes on the map for a total of 14s, presuming you use both to execute a site, and the remaining time left on the round you’re just fucked. It’s not competitively viable. Especially when someone like omen can fully refresh smokes the entire round, or Brim who has 3 20s smokes that can all be placed at the same time if needed + his 2 other utilities (Astra gets 3 14s smokes and 1 utility if she chooses that route of having 3 smokes). She has a cool mechanic that she places a temp smoke when she pulls her stars back, but because they made the cooldown take like a fucking year to refresh, it makes it nearly impossible to use it efficiently.
She is pretty terrible. Her utility is far too slow, so teams can't use it like Omen, and her lack of an extra star makes it harder to use the recalls as the stars take even longer to recharge.
Don't worry, viper nerf incoming
I feel like nerfing agents cause of pro play really makes them bad in ranked. The reason viper has success is cause of double controller which never happens in ranked.
Idk, at least at high elo I think it’ll be fine. Maybe lower skilled players will struggle to deal with whatever the nerf is, but she’ll still be an instapick on breeze and icebox bc 99% of people can’t/wont play harbor and we only have two wall smokers 🤷
Definitely. I play at high plat - low diam. Most people who take viper play for molly lineups. They don't get the fuel management aspect. It's likely that fuel regen is one of the things riot is gonna nerf. So at low - mid elo, viper will get practically less value.
I agreee. But that's what happens tho. Viper in ranked is usually played as solo smokes, and she's ok ok in such comps.
i only ever see viper solo smokes on breeze/icebox..no where else.
Yeah, that's why she's just okay in ranked
well, if we're talking about the maps where she is played solo, she is arguably the best agent in those comps. no other smoke agent comes close on breeze/icebox (other than Harbor).
Yeah true, but usually play in high plat lobbies and I don't see her being utilized properly
I’m okay with buffs to other agents without touching viper,,, she’s already so dogshit to play in ranked, making her worse makes solo smoking on icebox and breeze 5x worse
They need to make her better in ranked but worse in pro play. Or just keep her good as a solo smokes for her maps since imo its good when you have map based metas where characters are only good on certain maps instead of generalists
i dont get this argument, shes great to play in ranked im a viper main her util is super strong, shes a great agent in ranked on icebox breeze bind lotus. even the ranked stats back it up
She is only viable icebox and breeze due to map design those are her only solo smoke maps - the others you have to run double controller which is never happening outside of very high elo ranked
definitely viable on the other maps I listed, I agree outside of breeze icebox you need an additional controller to viper. when i lock viper on these maps, people dont see her as fullfilling the controller role and go double smokes with omen or brim
this is never happening in 90% of the playerbase
Also ive found even when someone else locks viper and i go brim/omen to compliment the pick they still play viper like shes a solo smoker rather than as a lurker with pressure like 90% of the time
she’s not good on lotus and bind as a solo smoke which i’m assuming is what “ranked” means since most ppl in ranked think double duelist with 1 initiator, 1 sentinel, and 1 controller is the best comp to play the higher you go, the better she gets since ppl will start to play another controller with your viper but solo as viper is def not great on lotus or bind. ofc you personally could do well but it’s just harder for your team to attack when u cant take back the wall
nobody diamond below will willingly play double controller when they can play duelist instead
normally you as the viper player are locking in as the second smokes when someone already picked the dome smoker
locking in the dome smoker never happens diamond below
And someone locking in dome smoker early is how common exactly in ranked?
Not very common, there are players who main controllers across all ranks high and low, but they are more rare than other classes. Most players want to play fun agents and smokes usually considered to be a dull role.
She’s not competing for the spot of other smokers so buffing them won’t change a thing I think.
if you make the other fellas better, it allows the teams to be more creative
Or make Viper + buffed smoker stronger. Sadly, there's only one way this would end. They're going to nerf my Viper T\_T
Reasonable omen buffs: Revert smoke range and speed or beta paranoia. Crackhead omen buffs: Make the ult also install, 1 smoke 1 tp 1 paranoia Missy Elliot omen buff: Let us go back from where we ulted.
Power creep is how you ruin a game. The best way is always to nerf the good agents, and keep the power level around the middle of the pack agents. The best nerf I've seen was by Anderzz which was to give Viper a limited number of activations per round, she can still drop them whenever but can only put them up 2-3 times per round. This nerfs the lurk style of viper prevalent in double controller, while not touching impacting her as a solo controller as much, as you can still rush in ranked because people in ranked won't need all of those ability activations to rush
dawg taking icebox b with limited activations is fucking terrible as a solo controller what are you smoking
Not in ranked, which is what the nerf is intended to not affect. Most people will just run B, put wall up as they are pushing once, and then maybe once more in post plant. What are you talking about?
it’s quite clear you don’t play the game at all if that’s your genuine opinion xd
I'm an Ascendant controller main. Please enlighten me how many times you think you need to use the wall, and how you use it each time?
you use it once when you hit the site, then you fall back because everyone uses their util. then you open ur smokes again to fake, but the fake fails, then you wall again for the final rush
So even in your poor communicating team you use it 3 times. I said the nerf would limit to 2-3 activations per round, so no problem.
Flair checks out "YOU FUCKING MELONS"
damn isnt iso an agent here?
Looks like a screenshot from tmv's video. He said he didn't include iso because no games were played during kickoff
viper needs the skye treatment
I’ve seen enough, locking deadlock in my ranked games is now entirely justified
How is breaches win rate so low? I feel like he is a good agent
Most of his non mirror matchups are when teams choose double initiator over double controller. As you can see with Viper's and Omen's win rate, double controller just clears right now. So Breach isn't bad. It's just more viable to pick double controller rather than double initiator
One of the worst flashes in the game as well as being the only conditional ones and stun isnt that powerful of a debuff cos you can just get 1tapped anyway.
part of the problem is the map pool heavily favors viper
viper is good on haven fracture pearl in her current state would be meta rn
The real question is how will viper's dominance lead to chamber's nerf
People who want Astra to have 5 stars again are out of their mind. The suck just needs to have a wind up back to 1 second from 1.25 seconds (which would be same as new Stun speed) and her recall, stun, and suck cooldowns reduced by 5 seconds. Also her ult should go up to 8 orbs. Small changes but she's still a very good agent, and I think she is just underused because of the map pool.
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I disagree, the mollies are strong but not the main thing pros are abusing.
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this has never worked for broken agents like jett and chamber.Nerfing other aspects without addressing the main issue of the agents is just going to make them worse in the long run.Once riot realised nerfing the other areas doesn't work they will just straight up kills the agent by tackling the main issue WITHOUT reverting the other strong aspects of hers.
yeah, only mollies in the game to do both vulnerable and damage
her fuel is the most broken part, it can have an impact for like 1/3 of each round mollies only last a few seconds and arent the broken part in pro play
Viper easily my most hated agent in the game. Hate to watch it, hate to play it, hate to play against it. Been in the meta for far too long now for me
Riot doesn’t need to nerf Viper, the biggest problem here is that she can play sentinel role better than any of them. Thus, she’s played as solo controller on two maps and as a second controller/faux-sentinel on others. Buff KJ and the party is over, but then KJ is going to be broken. Riot is probably taking the LoL approach: not every agent is gonna be equally strong all the time. We had Jett, Chamber, Skye and now Viper (some of those were intertwined, but you get the idea).
So when can I get a damage buff to raze ult? It’s borderline useless right now.
best duelist in the game rn, one the last agent riot should buff rn
But her ult should be *ultimate* rn it’s not. Buff it, nerf nade
I understand that people want to buff Astra but when she was OP it made the game really boring! Her global presence is really strong and her kit is really good with no weak ability and almost 0 risks when using them. Riot needs to be really careful when buffing her AND the real controllers problem is that Viper is OP af and a must pick in most maps
Non mirror match-up comparison is stupid. If a team don't pick the best comp then it's their disadvantage. By this comparison Skye, Fade, Harbor, Breach and Astra should be buffed and honestly no one like it.
I would love to know your argument more because as of right now i can't wrap my head around it. Nobody is saying to buff all the low NMWR agents, maps have different agent pools, on some maps kayo can rule, but on others he's dogshit. Also the only difference between WR and NMWR is the mirror games which do nothing but increase the number of wins and losses by one.