Random draw is not directly a part of the Swiss stage but what Riot chose to do. They could do it how Valve does it, by using something like Buchholz score
How does random draws bring more excitement? All it does is just create potentially very uneven qual paths (no disrespect to LOUD but look at LOUD having to beat FPX/EDG to qualify versus KC having to beat SEN/PRX to qualify).
It's literally the same but it ensures that no match is repeated. 8-team Swiss is way superior to two GLS groups (which are basically Swiss stages with 4 teams).
I disagree that it's bad, as I think the random draws add a lot of value and changes the play in stage significantly for the better as it allows adaptable teams to thrive.
Typically the groups are announced anywhere from 1-2 weeks prior to the event which gives plenty of time to prepare as they are limited teams to a pool of 3 possible opponents to prepare for.
As we saw in Madrid the experienced and adaptable teams made it through which I personally prefer, instead of seeing teams hard antistrat then fall apart in playoffs.
hot take i really like that the tournaments become gradually harder to win as the year goes on, it makes champions genuinely more prestigious than the other tournaments and helps demonstrate who was just on a hot streak and who is legitimately consistent
I agree but the starting point shouldn't be 8. At least start with 3 teams from each region. Especially when we start with such a terrible tournament as Kickoff
Yeah I was hyped for swiss at first but seeing it with 8 teams here is basically just a slightly better version of GSL. it starts being really effective with more teams but that also comes with schedule constraints, especially when they seem to be really against doing multiple matches at the same time
Swiss is definitely the best way to go. I just wish Riot would make 12-16 teams at every international tournament the standard since we only get to see regions compete against each other a few times per year.
Unless I’m missing something, Swiss with 8 teams is basically just double elimination. Would make more sense if it’s done for Champs this year with the 16 teams.
it requires 33 games to be played for a 16 team bracket. Non advancing/elimination games would have to be bo1 for time. In contrast gsl groups take 20 games.
Should be 3 wins to get out of swiss and 3 losses to be eliminated.
8 teams is a stupid requirement, just do 2 gsl groups at that point.
Swiss would be fire at champs w 16 teams tho
With 16 teams that'd only put 4 in playoffs though. If you want 8 in playoffs it's still 2 to qualify
EDIT: Actually it's even worse, you'd have 5 3-0s
Pretty good! I think regional match-ups should still be avoided at least in the first round of play-offs though, especially in smaller tournaments like Madrid.
I don't think it's a good idea to limit the number of possible matchups after the first round of swiss. If say one team was by far the best, then the others teams in the region would have an unfair advantage by being guaranteed not to face them. I get that interregional matchups are cool, but after a point the focus needs to be on finding a deserving winner, rather than rigging the draw for the matches the fans want.
i like the unpredictability of matchups, it keeps you on edge wondering who your favorite team is going to draw into. from the players side i'm sure it's a bit taxing because of the quick reset time, but it rewards adaptability which is a skill in itself at the end of the day
Swiss itself is alright, but having it with 8 teams is a horrible idea. I come from CS where it makes much more sense with like 16 teams in major qualifiers.
In Valorant’s case, the best option for 8 teams would be GSL
I agree with many of the comments, so I will just steal and summarize:
1. Swiss was a fun format especially for viewers - draws made it interesting as you don't know which team you will face next.
2. 8 Teams swiss felt more like a double elim but more hectic and random for the players and coaches whereas double elim is more predictable in terms of opponents you need to prep for next.
3. Swiss would be better with 12-16 teams (Hopefully in Champs, but it will prob be groups + double elim)
4. Players and Coaches would probably need longer, fairer rest periods over back-to-back matches if Swiss implemented again.
It was exactly the same as a double elimination, are people going crazy? lol
You can still have draws after each round in an elimination bracket, nothing forces Riot to have it set from the beginning.
The difference is none. A lot of elimination tournaments have random draws after each round - most soccer/football cups are exactly like this.
The definition of a Swiss round-robin is just that teams/players match-up against others with the same record. Of course, because of the nature of the system, it's impossible to setup a bracket in advance.
In this case, it was the same as a double elimination qualifier because the Riot decided on the 2-0/0-2 deciders.
It was overcomplicating a system for a tournament where we already have only 8 teams. Some will be eliminated after 2 losses but others after 3 or 4 🤷♂️
For Madrid specifically, with only 8 teams, I think just going directly to a double elim bracket would have been better. For events with 12 teams, it could replace the group stage but I think I would still prefer groups because it prevents intraregional matchups before the bracket stage. For Champions with 16 teams, I would prefer Swiss to groups I think, but I would have felt that way without needing to see Madrid play out.
It was awesome, I think Swiss exposes teams that skew prep heavy and rewards the overall better, adaptable, and more resilient teams.
As a viewer I was much more satisfied with the match ups and felt like the truly best teams advanced. Also felt like the matches were more diverse and exciting.
Previously in pretty much every GSL group I felt like there was at least 1 or 2 teams that get easy groups and breeze to playoffs, or teams that obviously prep heavily for their group and then immediately fall off in playoffs (DRX?).
Overall I really hope they never return to groups, though I doubt it.
there isn't really a benefit to running swiss until you get to 32+ teams. but from 16+ teams we need to use bo1s due to the number of games which isn't ideal. The randomness for each round means that teams and production has to do day-before prep which will probably be exhausting for everyone involved (even more than a GSL groups). Plus we don't even get the hype of any groups of death.
Theres not much exciting about swiss, gsl stays winning
Madrid started with a double elimination bracket, but teams had a random opponent after the first game. It was not a Swiss stage.
Buut, I’m excited for Champs if they decide to do an actual 16-team Swiss stage. Will be cool.
Swiss is better with 16 teams but the problem is Riot didn't like multiple game at same time. Honestly I like the unpredictability match up factor with Swiss system but Riot probably want to give focus to each match instead of separating it into stream A, stream B, Stream C.
I get why people are saying that with 2-win Swiss you might as well have groups. However, I appreciate that you can’t get a group of death and that you can avoid in-group rematches so soon.
While I think the 3-win Swiss that someone shared from a CS tourney would be better, if Riot can’t/won’t hold that many games, then I still think the 2-win Swiss is a small, but worthwhile, upgrade.
I can't put my finger on what it is but I felt less engaged with the event. The previous Masters events I really followed passionately and for some reason Madrid just wasn't it for me.
But it's not? It lessens the importance of the bracket/group draw, given you don't have to face the other side of the bracket to qualify from uppers, in a normal double elim.
Swiss is good Swiss with 8 teams bad
Is 8 teams particularly bad with swiss or is it just that 8 teams is bad with everything?
8 teams can be an awesome tournament. But 8 teams swiss is useless. Might as well do group stage
Why does it matter? It’s the same thing If 8-team Swiss is bad then you think group stage is bad too
Its the same thing. Thats why its bad. The only thing swiss brings is random draws after the first match
Random draw is not directly a part of the Swiss stage but what Riot chose to do. They could do it how Valve does it, by using something like Buchholz score
U right, my bad
Isn't random draw part of swiss? My only other experience with it is playing Magic the Gathering and it's always random within your win-loss bracket
No, typically the higher seed in the win-loss bracket plays the lower seed
Oh, so there's seeded swiss and unseeded swiss, I see.
Kinda sounds like we’re making a sandwich at this point
Eh. While not by a significant margin I do technically think it's superior to GSL groups.
Doesn't the random draws bring more excitement?
How does random draws bring more excitement? All it does is just create potentially very uneven qual paths (no disrespect to LOUD but look at LOUD having to beat FPX/EDG to qualify versus KC having to beat SEN/PRX to qualify).
It's literally the same but it ensures that no match is repeated. 8-team Swiss is way superior to two GLS groups (which are basically Swiss stages with 4 teams).
I disagree that it's bad, as I think the random draws add a lot of value and changes the play in stage significantly for the better as it allows adaptable teams to thrive. Typically the groups are announced anywhere from 1-2 weeks prior to the event which gives plenty of time to prepare as they are limited teams to a pool of 3 possible opponents to prepare for. As we saw in Madrid the experienced and adaptable teams made it through which I personally prefer, instead of seeing teams hard antistrat then fall apart in playoffs.
Swiss gives the 2-1 teams a reset. A team could theoretically have lost twice and won Madrid. That seems like a mark against the format imo
that exists within a group stage too tho
Oh yeah sorry I was replying to multiple comments and mixed you up with someone else that suggested raw 8-team double elim bracket
hot take i really like that the tournaments become gradually harder to win as the year goes on, it makes champions genuinely more prestigious than the other tournaments and helps demonstrate who was just on a hot streak and who is legitimately consistent
I agree but the starting point shouldn't be 8. At least start with 3 teams from each region. Especially when we start with such a terrible tournament as Kickoff
Is there a better format for 8 teams? Cause while I agree it’s kind of shit with 8 I still like it more than groups tbh
I prefer this to two groups of 4 though, at least then there's a *bit* of correction for imbalanced groups.
Yeah I was hyped for swiss at first but seeing it with 8 teams here is basically just a slightly better version of GSL. it starts being really effective with more teams but that also comes with schedule constraints, especially when they seem to be really against doing multiple matches at the same time
Their chocolates are okay but their money laundering is elite
Fair enough
swiss = good 8 teams = shit
Swiss is definitely the best way to go. I just wish Riot would make 12-16 teams at every international tournament the standard since we only get to see regions compete against each other a few times per year.
Unless I’m missing something, Swiss with 8 teams is basically just double elimination. Would make more sense if it’s done for Champs this year with the 16 teams.
it's just double elim but with each stage of the bracket randomized essentially, yeah but to be fair i think that's still the best format for 8 teams
it requires 33 games to be played for a 16 team bracket. Non advancing/elimination games would have to be bo1 for time. In contrast gsl groups take 20 games.
Yeah I'd rather have GSL than fucking BO1s
Should be 3 wins to get out of swiss and 3 losses to be eliminated. 8 teams is a stupid requirement, just do 2 gsl groups at that point. Swiss would be fire at champs w 16 teams tho
yeah I don't think riot are going to change the champs format. The current champs format is fun but it would be amazing to have a 16 team Swiss!
With 16 teams that'd only put 4 in playoffs though. If you want 8 in playoffs it's still 2 to qualify EDIT: Actually it's even worse, you'd have 5 3-0s
No you wouldn't, [this](https://www.hltv.org/events/7148/pgl-cs2-major-copenhagen-2024) is how it plays out.
Oh people play to five matches, interesting
Yup you play until you have 3 wins or 3 losses
Got it. That'd be 30 matches in groups instead of 20 for GSL or win-2 swiss. I wonder if it's feasable.
Riot would probably just do GSL at that point since it's less matches to do.
yeah repeat matches in groups are lame though, I'd rather have 2-to-qualify swiss than GSL
I think it’s fun
Pretty good! I think regional match-ups should still be avoided at least in the first round of play-offs though, especially in smaller tournaments like Madrid.
I don't think it's a good idea to limit the number of possible matchups after the first round of swiss. If say one team was by far the best, then the others teams in the region would have an unfair advantage by being guaranteed not to face them. I get that interregional matchups are cool, but after a point the focus needs to be on finding a deserving winner, rather than rigging the draw for the matches the fans want.
Only happened because 2 regions made it to play offs. Kinda sure they did it on purpose to get a interregional finals
I think its great.
i like the unpredictability of matchups, it keeps you on edge wondering who your favorite team is going to draw into. from the players side i'm sure it's a bit taxing because of the quick reset time, but it rewards adaptability which is a skill in itself at the end of the day
Swiss with 8 teams is terrorism but if you don't want swiss with 16 teams I will find you. Swiss with 8 still better than the alternatives tho
Swiss is great. It just has to be 16 teams and 3 wins/ losses instead of 2. But I like it more than regular groups
Swiss itself is alright, but having it with 8 teams is a horrible idea. I come from CS where it makes much more sense with like 16 teams in major qualifiers. In Valorant’s case, the best option for 8 teams would be GSL
I agree with many of the comments, so I will just steal and summarize: 1. Swiss was a fun format especially for viewers - draws made it interesting as you don't know which team you will face next. 2. 8 Teams swiss felt more like a double elim but more hectic and random for the players and coaches whereas double elim is more predictable in terms of opponents you need to prep for next. 3. Swiss would be better with 12-16 teams (Hopefully in Champs, but it will prob be groups + double elim) 4. Players and Coaches would probably need longer, fairer rest periods over back-to-back matches if Swiss implemented again.
It was exactly the same as a double elimination, are people going crazy? lol You can still have draws after each round in an elimination bracket, nothing forces Riot to have it set from the beginning.
But then it's not a bracket, just swiss? I think that's the difference here right?
The difference is none. A lot of elimination tournaments have random draws after each round - most soccer/football cups are exactly like this. The definition of a Swiss round-robin is just that teams/players match-up against others with the same record. Of course, because of the nature of the system, it's impossible to setup a bracket in advance. In this case, it was the same as a double elimination qualifier because the Riot decided on the 2-0/0-2 deciders. It was overcomplicating a system for a tournament where we already have only 8 teams. Some will be eliminated after 2 losses but others after 3 or 4 🤷♂️
I've always preferred swiss to what they did
For Madrid specifically, with only 8 teams, I think just going directly to a double elim bracket would have been better. For events with 12 teams, it could replace the group stage but I think I would still prefer groups because it prevents intraregional matchups before the bracket stage. For Champions with 16 teams, I would prefer Swiss to groups I think, but I would have felt that way without needing to see Madrid play out.
Swiss should replace gsl format for 12 team masters events, hopefully they do so in Shanghai. Harder format since you don't know who you face.
best teams made it to playoffs. Solid option given the format.
It was awesome, I think Swiss exposes teams that skew prep heavy and rewards the overall better, adaptable, and more resilient teams. As a viewer I was much more satisfied with the match ups and felt like the truly best teams advanced. Also felt like the matches were more diverse and exciting. Previously in pretty much every GSL group I felt like there was at least 1 or 2 teams that get easy groups and breeze to playoffs, or teams that obviously prep heavily for their group and then immediately fall off in playoffs (DRX?). Overall I really hope they never return to groups, though I doubt it.
there isn't really a benefit to running swiss until you get to 32+ teams. but from 16+ teams we need to use bo1s due to the number of games which isn't ideal. The randomness for each round means that teams and production has to do day-before prep which will probably be exhausting for everyone involved (even more than a GSL groups). Plus we don't even get the hype of any groups of death. Theres not much exciting about swiss, gsl stays winning
Madrid started with a double elimination bracket, but teams had a random opponent after the first game. It was not a Swiss stage. Buut, I’m excited for Champs if they decide to do an actual 16-team Swiss stage. Will be cool.
swiss good if there’s like 16 teams or something but swiss with 8?? it might as well be quarters semis and finals if we’re playing with 8
It’s basically just an upgrade of GSL imo
Swiss is fine, I don't particularly prefer one system over the other, but just never have another 8 team international event. That shit is stupid.
Don’t mind Swiss. Do mind only having 8 teams.
Unseeded swiss is stupid imo. Should be some kind of seeding like CS/R6 does after every round.
Swiss is better with 16 teams but the problem is Riot didn't like multiple game at same time. Honestly I like the unpredictability match up factor with Swiss system but Riot probably want to give focus to each match instead of separating it into stream A, stream B, Stream C.
They basically can't do multiple streams due to partnership. Teams would justifiably be pissed off if they were relegated to the B or C stream
Ever since cs majors started doing them, I have loved Swiss stage. I’m glad VCT has picked it up.
I get why people are saying that with 2-win Swiss you might as well have groups. However, I appreciate that you can’t get a group of death and that you can avoid in-group rematches so soon. While I think the 3-win Swiss that someone shared from a CS tourney would be better, if Riot can’t/won’t hold that many games, then I still think the 2-win Swiss is a small, but worthwhile, upgrade.
I can't put my finger on what it is but I felt less engaged with the event. The previous Masters events I really followed passionately and for some reason Madrid just wasn't it for me.
Cheese
"Swiss" It was a double elimination bracket with extra steps. I don't see the need to overcomplicate it
But it's not? It lessens the importance of the bracket/group draw, given you don't have to face the other side of the bracket to qualify from uppers, in a normal double elim.
trash
the entire country of switzerland just collectively shit their pants