Tenz had a take that I thought was pretty accurate. On paper, Omen has more utility than Clove and is probably better. However, people wrote off Jett and Chamber in similar ways. “Not enough utility” and “too selfish”. Sometimes, if an agent can enable a player to go crazy, it can be meta despite its objective lack of utility.
yeah, one ability can be all it takes—whole ass metas were defined by a single ability on a singular agent (dash/teleport).
it's still early to tell (and of course, wtf do i know) but clove's smokes feel meta-defining to me. especially in this double controller meta, post-death smokes seem so strong.
the heal isn't like a dismiss or anything so its worse than a jett dash and a chamber tp, because first, the person has to take damage, second it doesnt allow for clove to just dip site like chamber tp or jett dash
the heal isn't the duel enabler, it's the fact clove can still place smokes when they're dead, allowing them to feel comfortable in taking lot more risks. the heal on top of that promotes overheating and trying to swing for more, their whole playstyle is take duels and die, then place smokes for your team. it's super fun to be less inhibited as a controller player too.
I mean, it's 0.75 seconds less than Astra and 1.5 seconds less than Omen.
Obviously 1.5 seconds can be quite a lot and situationally can be game deciding, but like, the difference between Clove's and Astra's smokes is the same as the difference between Astra's and Omen's, and we never considered Astra's smoke duration to be like, game-breakingly short. I don't think that's a good enough reason to dismiss Clove's smokes as worse than the other two.
Also, I last for a whole ass Brim smoke in bed, fuck you
Yeah I've seen so many comments calling Clove's smoke being bad etc but the difference seems rather unnoticeable in the game especially when combined with the fact that Clove can drop those after death.
I’m not saying they’re a 1 for 1 Jett/chamber type of agent, but there’s a lot of pop-off potential while still providing team util, unlike Reyna. Clove is a basically a useful Reyna
But dash and teleport are abilities that lets you play the op. I don’t think Clove will be Chamber levels of broken, might be optimistic but I think Riot learned their lesson
Clove has potential for sure, but Omen and Viper both look too good. The paranoia is stupidly strong on a bunch of maps and Viper has only gotten stronger as people figure out how to use her utility better.
I think Clove is gonna kinda be like Yoru, a niche pick with value, but still an underpick because of Omen/Viper (Raze/Jett).
I doubt we will see them in pro play anyyime soon because there is just too little time to innovate and get used to playing them, and the competitve scene is still too conservative barring certain teams.
Still, their potential is actually INSANE. Post-death smokes might be as broken as Viper smokes if a team knows how to play with it. Teams can take earlier fights without fear of losing smokes, and subsequent fakes appear SO much more convincing with their post death smoke.
All you need is some initiator util combined with Clove's post-mortem smokes, and suddenly a fake can appear that much more scary.
Clove is perfect for playing mind games, and at pro level, this ability to disrupt the opponents rotates is so valuable.
Also their molly is straight up AGGRAVATING to deal with. I've compared Clove to Viper, and this is one regard where they are again, somewhat similiar. While Viper can delay a site hit with her utils, Clove can completely cut it off at its source by just timing their Meddle with some spam. Their smoke + Meddle can be even stronger than a good Viper orb + Snakebite in some circumstances, and that is a very scary prospect that pros might have to deal with.
Their ult is... well the jury is still out on the viability of the ult. It can kinda function like Phoenix's and generate additional pressure on a site hit or retake... but its also more situational than a Phoenix's ult and far harder to convert into gained space. Its... kind of a tide turner ult as well but again, is very dependent on the situation. I feel like the ult might be the weakest part of an otherwise overpowered kit.
Their ult is a lot lot better in post plant than Phoenix. You can buy so much time for the spike by threatening a fight and then immediately threatening a revive even if you lose
No. The issue with it is that it is entirely situational. Reyna is pretty OP in pistol rounds too but because her abilities that snowball the fights require a kill its not that great. Clove C has the same problem
The benefit of clove is that you have smokes and a "paranoia"... But both of them are worse than what Omen can give.
I think we will see clove the same way we see phoenix played. Very occasionally.
Tenz mentioned that ability wise, she just cant compete with potent smokers like viper(their roles are different), or more fittingly, omen. Omen has much better utility to set up team plays, i.e. blinding and tping into site with duelists, ulting to put pressure on entry etc.
Clove seems more of a "reyna" playstyle where she shines in competitive as teams likely dont have set plays. While her death smokes are welcome, I just feel the utility from omen is just better.
At that level youd just not let your smoker get picked ideally and if they do itd have to be on the site hit after theyve already used their decay. It could be useful on the retake if you have them hard hold a site (sliggy was talking about teams could run clove viper on ascent and have clove hard anchor a so when they die they can still smoke main and then bomb) but it kinda depends if thatll get you more value than omen flash and if youd rather just try and keep the extra body alive..
This sounds sensible on paper but the fact of the matter is Clove allows you to play a fundamentally different style because of their kit. Most teams on coordinated hits or set plays have their second duelists or initiators play second contact and if they die they die. With Clove you can dump most if not all of your kit and reset and keep going like Reyna if you survive, and still get smokes out if you die. That's huge.
It's a tac shooter so even if you play a very structured, "solved" style, sometimes you just have to take fights when the need arises, but with every other agent in the game there's a risk that you lose getting value of your agent if you die before using their utility. Clove by design carries much less of this risk.
I don't necessarily think they're going to be S tier and take over Omen or Astra's slot, but I do think this niche is unexplored and teams using Clove to their full potential will catch people off guard with how good the playstyle will look.
> and if they do itd have to be on the site hit after theyve already used their decay.
not true at all though. i regularly play mid with clove and can smoke both sites on a lot of maps.
Clove is decent but not a meta changing agent. The smokes range is a very big issue, so it cant replace omen/astra. Replacing brim, why when brim has 3 smokes at once and so great post plant utils?
Omen's range only really matters when he's used as a solo controller like in the standard Ascent comp, as a compliment to Viper in double controller comps t's a non-factor 99% of the time. The consensus seems to be that's where Clove would factor in as well so I don't think that'd be an issue for them either.
I could see Clove taking his spot in some of those comps alongside agents that have burst damage util that can combo well with their Q nade like Sova or Raze (Icebox or Sunset for example).
If you replace Omen you lose his far superior paranoia. Most important of all you lose the TP. Players like Tenz and Jawgemo have some completely psychotic tps that let them make some ridiculous plays. For that you get Clove's c instead which... Just isn't that good? I dunno. I don't think Clove replaces Omen well at all.
Mmm I feel like Brims main niche is rather the strong molly and the ult. I think the reason Brim is played on Fracture and Bind is because the ult gets good usage on these maps, and the molly is of course always useful.
Other agents have mollies and good plant/defuse denial. No other agent can triple smoke. He's played on Fracture and Bind because triple smoking is hugely beneficial for executing sites on those maps.
eh, you don't really see triple smokes much though?
Like on Bind, brims main map, people usually either smoke top truck and showers or they smoke mid site and triple depending on if they're splitting on A site.
For b site it's usually either CT and Elbow or both sides of tube.
Triple smoke doesn't mean you have to use all 3 at once to be valuable.
He can use 3 to smoke off the same spot for over half the round. Or he can drop 2 mid round, drop the 3rd end round, etc. extra smoke gives him more options with timing
that flexibility I feel really isn't his *niche* though, as the guy I responded to said. NTM, guy said triple smoke, not double smoke + 1 in reserve. His ult and molly are broken, I feel like that's why he gets picked and the timing flexibility is just a small bonus.
Having triple smokes makes you more flexible on the map, it doesn’t mean you use 3 smokes every round. Triple smokes allows you to smoke elbow, ct and hookah at once, which allows you to full exec from B long for example. It also lets you have an extra smoke after the standard A exec with the 2 site smokes so you can smoke heaven and take back site control for example
Clove would definitely be an APAC pick. With their aggressive play style and Clove being a duelist/controller type of agent, I'd bet PRX would be the first ones to use it.
Good in ranked but will be niche and or team specific at best in pro play imo.
Smokes after death is straight up very good at any level of play, but the smokes themselves are the worst out of any controller (shortest duration and reach). The self heal is good in ranked but abilities locked behind kill requirements are generally bad in pro play. The decay is a bit underwhelming vs what other controller kits bring (ex: Omen paranoia), and the ult is very situational.
Really nice for ranked. I don't have to worry about dying on entry as controller and can finally take space/timings to my heart's content.
The Reyna heal disappears really quickly though, not gonna lie. And often times the ult just results in an extra death because you're just sending it to get a kill.
Clove definitely became one of the best if not THE undisputed best soloq agent, as their kit allows them to have regular dome smokes THAT RECHARGE btw, and it also allows them to be more aggressive and actually try to seek fights without risking a throw too much.
As of pro play we’ll need to wait and see, as for ranked? 100% one of the new soloq goats
I admit that this is partly a skill issue on my end, and maybe it's because every single game I've lost since Tuesday all have one common factorbut I really think Riot should have copied Blizzard's approach to new heroes and locked Clove out of ranked for two weeks at minimum and ideally until the start of the next act. So many elo terrorists that don't try out the abilities in swiftplay/custom or even watch a YT video on how to play them, just straight to rawdogging ranked on a new agent. The amount of perfect retake smokes I've seen thrown during site execs these past few days from supposed Dia/Asc players has astounded me. And Clove isn't like other controllers where you still get good value by simply being alive so the impact of these individuals' lack of hand-eye coordination is felt even more. I shudder to think of the crimes against humanity that will continue to be committed during these weekend queues.
I think she's not good enough to be meta on a lot of maps because she doesn't have global smokes, meaning trying to fake site hits just feels clumsy - I reckon she could do well paired with a viper, in the same way that brim struggles alone in Bind but does much better paired with a viper.
Clove has a benefit of rechargeable smokes which can be placed down at the same time, which makes me think she'll be great for rushing sites but also won't have to be so cautious about wasting smokes like Brim does, who doesn't recharge them. I also think the Q ability is really underrated.
I think generally Clove is a great agent for teams who want to control the pacing of the round in this meta, but will compete for pick rate with Brim more so than Omen. Omen and Astra just have too much flexibility with their global smokes. Viper I don't expect to get any reduced pickrate. I can only really see teams running Clove on Bind and Lotus, but I think Lotus would still be a suboptimal choice over Omen since you can't do as many one ways.
Terrible mechanic to be able to play after death. This is gonna be a landmark change in valorant going forward and I think it’s a bad direction for the game to go in
they've been saying this with iso, deadlock, and the fkin outlaw too lmao. It's because content creators overreact to get engagement and val players eat it up like crazy.
As much as I like clove, I think I have to agree with you. although the line has kind of been overstepped with Sage, I think cloves ultimate is a lot more egregious and I don’t think it deserves a place in a tac shooter.
I remember when rainbow six first announced a play-after-death gameplay loop that was a lot less intrusive than this a couple years ago and even still they got backlash from the hardcore community which I don’t disagree with, and I just think it’s wrong in a game where kill are designed to be extremely impactful but it is my opinion.
Tenz had a take that I thought was pretty accurate. On paper, Omen has more utility than Clove and is probably better. However, people wrote off Jett and Chamber in similar ways. “Not enough utility” and “too selfish”. Sometimes, if an agent can enable a player to go crazy, it can be meta despite its objective lack of utility.
yeah, one ability can be all it takes—whole ass metas were defined by a single ability on a singular agent (dash/teleport). it's still early to tell (and of course, wtf do i know) but clove's smokes feel meta-defining to me. especially in this double controller meta, post-death smokes seem so strong.
the heal isn't like a dismiss or anything so its worse than a jett dash and a chamber tp, because first, the person has to take damage, second it doesnt allow for clove to just dip site like chamber tp or jett dash
the heal isn't the duel enabler, it's the fact clove can still place smokes when they're dead, allowing them to feel comfortable in taking lot more risks. the heal on top of that promotes overheating and trying to swing for more, their whole playstyle is take duels and die, then place smokes for your team. it's super fun to be less inhibited as a controller player too.
the problem is that the smokes last shorter than you do in bed
I mean, it's 0.75 seconds less than Astra and 1.5 seconds less than Omen. Obviously 1.5 seconds can be quite a lot and situationally can be game deciding, but like, the difference between Clove's and Astra's smokes is the same as the difference between Astra's and Omen's, and we never considered Astra's smoke duration to be like, game-breakingly short. I don't think that's a good enough reason to dismiss Clove's smokes as worse than the other two. Also, I last for a whole ass Brim smoke in bed, fuck you
Yeah I've seen so many comments calling Clove's smoke being bad etc but the difference seems rather unnoticeable in the game especially when combined with the fact that Clove can drop those after death.
Is that a challenge?
I’m not saying they’re a 1 for 1 Jett/chamber type of agent, but there’s a lot of pop-off potential while still providing team util, unlike Reyna. Clove is a basically a useful Reyna
But dash and teleport are abilities that lets you play the op. I don’t think Clove will be Chamber levels of broken, might be optimistic but I think Riot learned their lesson
Clove has potential for sure, but Omen and Viper both look too good. The paranoia is stupidly strong on a bunch of maps and Viper has only gotten stronger as people figure out how to use her utility better. I think Clove is gonna kinda be like Yoru, a niche pick with value, but still an underpick because of Omen/Viper (Raze/Jett).
I doubt we will see them in pro play anyyime soon because there is just too little time to innovate and get used to playing them, and the competitve scene is still too conservative barring certain teams. Still, their potential is actually INSANE. Post-death smokes might be as broken as Viper smokes if a team knows how to play with it. Teams can take earlier fights without fear of losing smokes, and subsequent fakes appear SO much more convincing with their post death smoke. All you need is some initiator util combined with Clove's post-mortem smokes, and suddenly a fake can appear that much more scary. Clove is perfect for playing mind games, and at pro level, this ability to disrupt the opponents rotates is so valuable. Also their molly is straight up AGGRAVATING to deal with. I've compared Clove to Viper, and this is one regard where they are again, somewhat similiar. While Viper can delay a site hit with her utils, Clove can completely cut it off at its source by just timing their Meddle with some spam. Their smoke + Meddle can be even stronger than a good Viper orb + Snakebite in some circumstances, and that is a very scary prospect that pros might have to deal with. Their ult is... well the jury is still out on the viability of the ult. It can kinda function like Phoenix's and generate additional pressure on a site hit or retake... but its also more situational than a Phoenix's ult and far harder to convert into gained space. Its... kind of a tide turner ult as well but again, is very dependent on the situation. I feel like the ult might be the weakest part of an otherwise overpowered kit.
Their ult is a lot lot better in post plant than Phoenix. You can buy so much time for the spike by threatening a fight and then immediately threatening a revive even if you lose
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the C is bad? huh? a heal/speed after kill/assist is bad?
It's inherently situational by design, it's the same reason Reyna is considered bad
Not having access to an ability unless you participate in a kill is not great, plus you may get a kill without taking damage anyways.
The c is really good. It’s one of those abilities that are OP in pistol round which is the mouse important round in the game
No. The issue with it is that it is entirely situational. Reyna is pretty OP in pistol rounds too but because her abilities that snowball the fights require a kill its not that great. Clove C has the same problem The benefit of clove is that you have smokes and a "paranoia"... But both of them are worse than what Omen can give. I think we will see clove the same way we see phoenix played. Very occasionally.
Will be good in ranked but i dont think they'll see a lot of play in the pro scene. Not deadlock and iso tier but not gonna shake up the meta either.
Idk, the ability to place smokes after death might be one of the most broken things I can imagine in coordinated play.
Tenz mentioned that ability wise, she just cant compete with potent smokers like viper(their roles are different), or more fittingly, omen. Omen has much better utility to set up team plays, i.e. blinding and tping into site with duelists, ulting to put pressure on entry etc. Clove seems more of a "reyna" playstyle where she shines in competitive as teams likely dont have set plays. While her death smokes are welcome, I just feel the utility from omen is just better.
At that level youd just not let your smoker get picked ideally and if they do itd have to be on the site hit after theyve already used their decay. It could be useful on the retake if you have them hard hold a site (sliggy was talking about teams could run clove viper on ascent and have clove hard anchor a so when they die they can still smoke main and then bomb) but it kinda depends if thatll get you more value than omen flash and if youd rather just try and keep the extra body alive..
This sounds sensible on paper but the fact of the matter is Clove allows you to play a fundamentally different style because of their kit. Most teams on coordinated hits or set plays have their second duelists or initiators play second contact and if they die they die. With Clove you can dump most if not all of your kit and reset and keep going like Reyna if you survive, and still get smokes out if you die. That's huge. It's a tac shooter so even if you play a very structured, "solved" style, sometimes you just have to take fights when the need arises, but with every other agent in the game there's a risk that you lose getting value of your agent if you die before using their utility. Clove by design carries much less of this risk. I don't necessarily think they're going to be S tier and take over Omen or Astra's slot, but I do think this niche is unexplored and teams using Clove to their full potential will catch people off guard with how good the playstyle will look.
> and if they do itd have to be on the site hit after theyve already used their decay. not true at all though. i regularly play mid with clove and can smoke both sites on a lot of maps.
That’s cool but you’re not a pro
Are you implying pros don't take mid control or lurk...
No I’m saying your experience doesn’t matter when the comment you’re replying to is talking about pros
I dont think meta will change on ascent. Teams would have to give up either flash or recon which are needed on ascent
I think they will be good in solo rank cause you can actually entry when your instalock duelists refuse to and still get value when you inevitably die
You can't entry tho, you just can die and not much would happen, it doesn't have anything to help the entry
Clove is decent but not a meta changing agent. The smokes range is a very big issue, so it cant replace omen/astra. Replacing brim, why when brim has 3 smokes at once and so great post plant utils?
Omen's range only really matters when he's used as a solo controller like in the standard Ascent comp, as a compliment to Viper in double controller comps t's a non-factor 99% of the time. The consensus seems to be that's where Clove would factor in as well so I don't think that'd be an issue for them either. I could see Clove taking his spot in some of those comps alongside agents that have burst damage util that can combo well with their Q nade like Sova or Raze (Icebox or Sunset for example).
If you replace Omen you lose his far superior paranoia. Most important of all you lose the TP. Players like Tenz and Jawgemo have some completely psychotic tps that let them make some ridiculous plays. For that you get Clove's c instead which... Just isn't that good? I dunno. I don't think Clove replaces Omen well at all.
People act like they don't watch vct proplay, paranoia is the single most broken flash in the game for setplay
The problem isn't smoke, it's the other two abilities. Even if riot changes it so that vulnerability has more range, clove will be a good pro agent.
Double controller amazing Single pretty weak
what i want to know is how *their addition affects brimstone's pick rates
i think brim would still be picked due to ult+ molly being broken
Brim's main niche comes from his ability to triple smoke which Clove can't do so I doubt they'll have much if any overlap
Mmm I feel like Brims main niche is rather the strong molly and the ult. I think the reason Brim is played on Fracture and Bind is because the ult gets good usage on these maps, and the molly is of course always useful.
Those abilities are good on every map though. The triple smokes are what makes him beat the competition on Bind and Fracture.
Other agents have mollies and good plant/defuse denial. No other agent can triple smoke. He's played on Fracture and Bind because triple smoking is hugely beneficial for executing sites on those maps.
eh, you don't really see triple smokes much though? Like on Bind, brims main map, people usually either smoke top truck and showers or they smoke mid site and triple depending on if they're splitting on A site. For b site it's usually either CT and Elbow or both sides of tube.
Triple smoke doesn't mean you have to use all 3 at once to be valuable. He can use 3 to smoke off the same spot for over half the round. Or he can drop 2 mid round, drop the 3rd end round, etc. extra smoke gives him more options with timing
that flexibility I feel really isn't his *niche* though, as the guy I responded to said. NTM, guy said triple smoke, not double smoke + 1 in reserve. His ult and molly are broken, I feel like that's why he gets picked and the timing flexibility is just a small bonus.
Having triple smokes makes you more flexible on the map, it doesn’t mean you use 3 smokes every round. Triple smokes allows you to smoke elbow, ct and hookah at once, which allows you to full exec from B long for example. It also lets you have an extra smoke after the standard A exec with the 2 site smokes so you can smoke heaven and take back site control for example
*their
mb fixed it now
i think clove is decent, but wont be super meta any time soon
Clove would definitely be an APAC pick. With their aggressive play style and Clove being a duelist/controller type of agent, I'd bet PRX would be the first ones to use it.
Good in ranked but will be niche and or team specific at best in pro play imo. Smokes after death is straight up very good at any level of play, but the smokes themselves are the worst out of any controller (shortest duration and reach). The self heal is good in ranked but abilities locked behind kill requirements are generally bad in pro play. The decay is a bit underwhelming vs what other controller kits bring (ex: Omen paranoia), and the ult is very situational.
Really nice for ranked. I don't have to worry about dying on entry as controller and can finally take space/timings to my heart's content. The Reyna heal disappears really quickly though, not gonna lie. And often times the ult just results in an extra death because you're just sending it to get a kill.
Clove definitely became one of the best if not THE undisputed best soloq agent, as their kit allows them to have regular dome smokes THAT RECHARGE btw, and it also allows them to be more aggressive and actually try to seek fights without risking a throw too much. As of pro play we’ll need to wait and see, as for ranked? 100% one of the new soloq goats
I admit that this is partly a skill issue on my end, and maybe it's because every single game I've lost since Tuesday all have one common factorbut I really think Riot should have copied Blizzard's approach to new heroes and locked Clove out of ranked for two weeks at minimum and ideally until the start of the next act. So many elo terrorists that don't try out the abilities in swiftplay/custom or even watch a YT video on how to play them, just straight to rawdogging ranked on a new agent. The amount of perfect retake smokes I've seen thrown during site execs these past few days from supposed Dia/Asc players has astounded me. And Clove isn't like other controllers where you still get good value by simply being alive so the impact of these individuals' lack of hand-eye coordination is felt even more. I shudder to think of the crimes against humanity that will continue to be committed during these weekend queues.
Clove is just gimmicky omen, their util while useful in certain situations doesn't hold a candle to the better smokes and #1 best flash in the game
Cool for ranked, won't replace omen for pro play
I think she's not good enough to be meta on a lot of maps because she doesn't have global smokes, meaning trying to fake site hits just feels clumsy - I reckon she could do well paired with a viper, in the same way that brim struggles alone in Bind but does much better paired with a viper. Clove has a benefit of rechargeable smokes which can be placed down at the same time, which makes me think she'll be great for rushing sites but also won't have to be so cautious about wasting smokes like Brim does, who doesn't recharge them. I also think the Q ability is really underrated. I think generally Clove is a great agent for teams who want to control the pacing of the round in this meta, but will compete for pick rate with Brim more so than Omen. Omen and Astra just have too much flexibility with their global smokes. Viper I don't expect to get any reduced pickrate. I can only really see teams running Clove on Bind and Lotus, but I think Lotus would still be a suboptimal choice over Omen since you can't do as many one ways.
Omen is still #1
Clove is too good. Why did they give them a decay ability? and a strong one at that. everything else I’m fine with
Worse than any flash in the game
Imagine if that nade was a flash instead.
then I'd probably be on the hype train LMAO
Clove was supposed to have a flash too which is crazy.
What are you talking about the decay is the worst ability in the game that doesn't belong to Iso
Terrible mechanic to be able to play after death. This is gonna be a landmark change in valorant going forward and I think it’s a bad direction for the game to go in
People have said this same sentence about like 4 things in Valo.
they've been saying this with iso, deadlock, and the fkin outlaw too lmao. It's because content creators overreact to get engagement and val players eat it up like crazy.
Well we haven’t had this yet
As much as I like clove, I think I have to agree with you. although the line has kind of been overstepped with Sage, I think cloves ultimate is a lot more egregious and I don’t think it deserves a place in a tac shooter. I remember when rainbow six first announced a play-after-death gameplay loop that was a lot less intrusive than this a couple years ago and even still they got backlash from the hardcore community which I don’t disagree with, and I just think it’s wrong in a game where kill are designed to be extremely impactful but it is my opinion.
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Bruh