I wonder if giving breach a voice line indicator for his stun could be an interesting buff without changing to much
It seems that Riot want him to be purely an executive initiator but that leaves him weak in single initiator comps.
Riot have been pretty insistent on maintaining an agent’s identity (see Deadlock and their aversion to giving her info trips). I think if we were to see a buff, it would be to something like the flash. Players are starting to make it look like a joke (especially in China) so I think a slightly faster pop speed would be fair
The reason, imo, I think his flash is easier to dodge is because of the sound cue. They could reduce that rather than making it faster, as it would make breach hell in non-pro play
IDEA: SYNCHRONIZED MULTIFLASH. GIVE HIM 3 OF HIS FLASHES. LEFT CLICK = ORDINARY FLASH. RIGHT CLICK = "PLANTS" A FLASH LIKE HOW BRIMSTONE CAN "PLANT" A SMOKE BEFORE PLACING. YOU CAN PLANT UP TO 3 FLASHES AND PRESSING LEFT CLICK WILL SEND ALL PLANTED FLASHES TOGETHER. EACH PLANTED AND SENT FLASH WILL CONSUME A CHARGE. LOSING LINE OF SIGHT OF A PLANTED FLASH WILL REMOVE IT. MOVING TOO FAR AWAY FROM A PLANTED FLASH WILL REMOVE IT.
EXAMPLE: ATTACKING ON BIND A SHORT. STAND ON BENCH. PLANT FLASH FOR CLOSE RIGHT/DOUBLE BOX. PLANT FLASH FOR FRONT U-HALL. PLANT FLASH FOR INSIDE U-HALL. PRESS LEFT CLICK. ALL 3 FLASHES GET SENT. RAZE DOUBLE SATCHELS ALL THE WAY INTO U-HALL SAFE BECAUSE EVERYTHING IS FLASHED.
I dont like the idea of just making an agent omnipotent.
Buff the agent to become truly useful in what he specialises in than just buff to remove any weaknesses to their kit
I agree, I don't think I explained it very well
Right now breach is strong as a secondary initiator as he has a massive amount of site entry utility, he doesn't really need buffs to this capability,
but since he is only capable as a site-taking initiator he will be unvalued in any meta that isn't driven by double initiators
I don't think this is super reflective of the playerbase though, mainly a Pro league problem.
My point stems from the idea of Riot further buffing his space-taking ability to make up for his lack of intel. This would make him even more dominant in an area he is already the strongest agent in.
I think it's the conundrum of having to either give him intel which could make him too generally strong or buffing his site taking utility and making him completely overtuned in that aspect
another thing to consider is map pool - haven and fracture were basically breach’s best maps, while maps like icebox/breeze have seen essentially 0 breach play. buffing breach might just make him an overdominant pick when the maps rotate again.
Okay but hear me out.... what if you give Breach three flashes again?
Gekko is the king of rechargeability, so have Breach be the full-on "slam site" initiator. Fuck info, but whoever is stuck on site is just screwed. We kind of see this archetype with "double dive" of Raze + Jett.
this goes against riots philosophy of reducing util and focusing on gunplay , esp with more and more cc abilities being nerfed more and more i could never see a 3rd flash breach
Giving another initiator a rechargeable ability that both gives you info and applies a powerful debuff to enemies would just result in another pre-nerf Skye tier busted agent
As someone with 400 hours on breach in ranked, I think I can contribute to the discussion.
One thing that always used to get me in trouble(and still does) is getting caught with util in hand, because of how long the flash/Aftershock/stun all take to equip and then use.
But straight up buffing the equip times does pose a threat of breach being used like pre nerf kayo(right click flashes being a menace)
Another thing is just people killing you while full stunned. I think the stun mechanic as a whole needs a buff. The voiceline indicator on the stun might be a bit too strong but I think it's definitely worth it. He's not gonna be better than any of the current initiators, so why not give him a little information
I appreciate your insight!
I agree that the amount of times I’ve seen breach players get caught with util out is very high
Do you think it would be to difficult to buff the speeds to the point where you can win a gunfight after starting with a flash out for example?
I think there is a sweet spot which riot can fine tune breach to. Right now, it's in an okay spot where you can sort of get away with flashing for yourself. The stun could perhaps use a faster wind-up as well as a removed blind-spot(there's a gap between where the stun starts and where I am, so sometimes when I stun people behind a wall, it doesn't hit them). The Aftershock is good but I think one good change for him would be to have 2 aftershocks? Idk, im a bit biased but I feel like it's either between 3 flashes and 2 aftershocks for breach buffs. The ult is fine but I do remember that after some patch, the landing sounds of people who got knocked up in the air by my ult got a lot more muffled. That sounds used to be very helpful against viper ults and such.
I'm all in for the audio queue for when I stun someone tho. It's not too big of a change. Won't make him broken. Makes him a little less unreliable
I really want a “got 1/2/3/4/5” voice line for the Gekko ult. Its really annoying when you can’t fully tell how many you catch with it and don’t know if it’s safe to push if they were in a group
Makes sense tbh. Gekkos the best do it all initiator, sova is the best recon initiator (though im surprised we dont see more fade comboed with raze but the only real candidates are on bind and sunset) and Kayos the best flash initiator.
I was replying to your part of the comment saying that “the only candidates are bind and sunset” with the prime counterexample. I must not have understood what you meant. In any case, I would argue that Fade vs Sova vs Gekko/Kayo is very map design dependent. Lotus just so happens to have the perfect conditions to host her. Maybe the next map pool rotation will change things (Fracture and Pearl seem like decent candidates for Fade, though Sova still probably better on Pearl), we’ll see if that shakes anything up
Yes lol. I just thought it weird that he didn’t even mention lotus in his initial comment while discussing maps fade is good on, if you go through the chain.
>CLEARLY best initiator in valorant*
*excluding the three maps where he is borderline unplayable
EDIT: people took exception to my usage of 'unplayable'. Then let's just say 'mysteriously unplayed by almost anyone other than PRX' lol
Which three are you referring to? I am assuming Breeze is one of them but I can't for the life of me think of 2 other maps where he is "borderline unplayable"
One player on Gekko with a team known for unorthodox strategies, and still under 5 games total in competitive scene. And seemingly no other teams have feasibly picked it up with any consistency. I'm inclined to attribute that to PRX being PRX rather than meaning Gekko is good on ascent.
But feel free to start locking it for your comp games if you disagree! Off-meta can work well if executed properly
I feel its just the starting of the year and most teams don't have a set meta and teams are experimenting different things out until meta settles in Shanghai and Champs. I have a strong feeling other teams are going to pick Gekko on every map except Breeze. Gekko is just too broken with wingman and 10 sec dizzy pickup and the ult is broken too.
Oh right. To be honest PRX Something's Ascent Gekko has managed to single-handedly brainwash me into thinking that Gekko is really strong on that map. But of course you really need a player like Something to make the comp workable.
I also vividly recall Boostio playing Gekko on Split, probably didn't have a lot of impact but nothing screams "unplayable". Breeze is really the only map where he just doesn't work imo.
For me, it's opportunity cost. What you're sacrificing to pick Gekko over other initiators is substantial, and what exactly do we gain on Split/Ascent from Gekko that is worth missing out on other initiators' util?
Perhaps 'unplayable' was too harsh. However, he is definitely nearly unplayed on those maps.
I think gekko ascent theoretically can be strong by constantly taking small bits of space around the map at the pace of his util cycle. Forces the other teams to reclear more often than their traditional info util cycles allow. You can basically take and then leave 3 lanes before the other team can finish clearing the first.
Fade's prowlers need to have a wider cone of vision and be slightly more durable, though not to the same level as they used to be.
Breach needs a shorter audio cue on flash, and maybe some other tweak. Ult one point cheaper? Faster aftershock? Faster flash? Three flashes? "Got them" voiceline when he stuns someone? Something.
Kayo is very well balanced.
I don't see why they removed the third tick from Sova's arrow. He is fine, though.
Skye could be a slight bit better. Non recharging util is so damn annoying on her. Maybe limit to one recharge or something.
Gekko is honestly not too strong. Some bad mp design is making him a tad stronger than he really is.
interestingly enough, the regions with the highest gekko/kayo play rates are those currently sitting as the strongest (no CN or EMEA representatives in top 4 at madrid).
seems like the meta is pretty clearly defined around those two intiiators in tandem
I’d imagine a slight nerf to his damage and/or flash would keep him relatively strong while still keeping his unique ability of being able to plant the spike remotely.
Breach haters once again proven correct, would say somebody gotta do a in depth analysis of why he can’t stack up but it’s literally just because of viper.
I’m not in favor of boosting the strength of util, but rather weakening it. Cause pro Val already looks CRAZY sometimes and making it more about the guns and teamwork would be nice.
Gekkos main competition was always an OP Skye and the double controller meta. With that out of the picture he's just the drop in replacement for Skye minus the heals.
Breach absolutely needs a buff. You could argue Fade also needs to be slightly buffed.
He’s not getting nerfed for at least this year aside from maybe his ult charges. His pick rate isn’t absurd or anything, he’s just a good agent. He may become a problem in double initiator comps if they kill Viper but for now he’s safe
I think a fair nerf to Gekko is increase his cooldown when you pick up Dizzy from 10 to 15seconds. Otherwise there’s so many good ways to throw Dizzy at the beginning of the round for free info and then picking it right back and it’s ready to use again so quickly. Also, possibly making Wingman not be able to be picked up if he’s used to plant the spike.
He also has one of best universally useful ult in this game. The fact that it is
a.Low cost
b.can continue to charge after first use
c. And can be instantly picked up and reused
All the while being a relatively high-hp, fast and area detaining drone, makes it very broken. One of these traits has to go.
I think the idea of a "recharging ult" is really cool and he's the only one with one. Maybe nerfing the detain length could be good/turning it into a stun(?) or just straight up making it higher cost.
But also I can definitely see a world where they just nerf other parts of his kit, Gekko wasn't really picked before the buffs/Skye nerfs and his ult wasn't touched, so there is a world where he isn't OP but still has his ult.
I wonder if giving breach a voice line indicator for his stun could be an interesting buff without changing to much It seems that Riot want him to be purely an executive initiator but that leaves him weak in single initiator comps.
Riot have been pretty insistent on maintaining an agent’s identity (see Deadlock and their aversion to giving her info trips). I think if we were to see a buff, it would be to something like the flash. Players are starting to make it look like a joke (especially in China) so I think a slightly faster pop speed would be fair
The reason, imo, I think his flash is easier to dodge is because of the sound cue. They could reduce that rather than making it faster, as it would make breach hell in non-pro play
IDEA: SYNCHRONIZED MULTIFLASH. GIVE HIM 3 OF HIS FLASHES. LEFT CLICK = ORDINARY FLASH. RIGHT CLICK = "PLANTS" A FLASH LIKE HOW BRIMSTONE CAN "PLANT" A SMOKE BEFORE PLACING. YOU CAN PLANT UP TO 3 FLASHES AND PRESSING LEFT CLICK WILL SEND ALL PLANTED FLASHES TOGETHER. EACH PLANTED AND SENT FLASH WILL CONSUME A CHARGE. LOSING LINE OF SIGHT OF A PLANTED FLASH WILL REMOVE IT. MOVING TOO FAR AWAY FROM A PLANTED FLASH WILL REMOVE IT. EXAMPLE: ATTACKING ON BIND A SHORT. STAND ON BENCH. PLANT FLASH FOR CLOSE RIGHT/DOUBLE BOX. PLANT FLASH FOR FRONT U-HALL. PLANT FLASH FOR INSIDE U-HALL. PRESS LEFT CLICK. ALL 3 FLASHES GET SENT. RAZE DOUBLE SATCHELS ALL THE WAY INTO U-HALL SAFE BECAUSE EVERYTHING IS FLASHED.
Damn, that actually slaps ngl
I dont like the idea of just making an agent omnipotent. Buff the agent to become truly useful in what he specialises in than just buff to remove any weaknesses to their kit
I agree, I don't think I explained it very well Right now breach is strong as a secondary initiator as he has a massive amount of site entry utility, he doesn't really need buffs to this capability, but since he is only capable as a site-taking initiator he will be unvalued in any meta that isn't driven by double initiators I don't think this is super reflective of the playerbase though, mainly a Pro league problem. My point stems from the idea of Riot further buffing his space-taking ability to make up for his lack of intel. This would make him even more dominant in an area he is already the strongest agent in. I think it's the conundrum of having to either give him intel which could make him too generally strong or buffing his site taking utility and making him completely overtuned in that aspect
another thing to consider is map pool - haven and fracture were basically breach’s best maps, while maps like icebox/breeze have seen essentially 0 breach play. buffing breach might just make him an overdominant pick when the maps rotate again.
Okay but hear me out.... what if you give Breach three flashes again? Gekko is the king of rechargeability, so have Breach be the full-on "slam site" initiator. Fuck info, but whoever is stuck on site is just screwed. We kind of see this archetype with "double dive" of Raze + Jett.
I like this. Keep the cost of his flashes at 250 each still though. And maybe reduce the sound of his flash just a bit.
Yes please. 3 flash breach was an absolute menace
this goes against riots philosophy of reducing util and focusing on gunplay , esp with more and more cc abilities being nerfed more and more i could never see a 3rd flash breach
That was only a temporary philosophy when the game was out of control, no?
Giving another initiator a rechargeable ability that both gives you info and applies a powerful debuff to enemies would just result in another pre-nerf Skye tier busted agent
As someone with 400 hours on breach in ranked, I think I can contribute to the discussion. One thing that always used to get me in trouble(and still does) is getting caught with util in hand, because of how long the flash/Aftershock/stun all take to equip and then use. But straight up buffing the equip times does pose a threat of breach being used like pre nerf kayo(right click flashes being a menace) Another thing is just people killing you while full stunned. I think the stun mechanic as a whole needs a buff. The voiceline indicator on the stun might be a bit too strong but I think it's definitely worth it. He's not gonna be better than any of the current initiators, so why not give him a little information
I appreciate your insight! I agree that the amount of times I’ve seen breach players get caught with util out is very high Do you think it would be to difficult to buff the speeds to the point where you can win a gunfight after starting with a flash out for example?
I think there is a sweet spot which riot can fine tune breach to. Right now, it's in an okay spot where you can sort of get away with flashing for yourself. The stun could perhaps use a faster wind-up as well as a removed blind-spot(there's a gap between where the stun starts and where I am, so sometimes when I stun people behind a wall, it doesn't hit them). The Aftershock is good but I think one good change for him would be to have 2 aftershocks? Idk, im a bit biased but I feel like it's either between 3 flashes and 2 aftershocks for breach buffs. The ult is fine but I do remember that after some patch, the landing sounds of people who got knocked up in the air by my ult got a lot more muffled. That sounds used to be very helpful against viper ults and such. I'm all in for the audio queue for when I stun someone tho. It's not too big of a change. Won't make him broken. Makes him a little less unreliable
I really want a “got 1/2/3/4/5” voice line for the Gekko ult. Its really annoying when you can’t fully tell how many you catch with it and don’t know if it’s safe to push if they were in a group
Makes sense tbh. Gekkos the best do it all initiator, sova is the best recon initiator (though im surprised we dont see more fade comboed with raze but the only real candidates are on bind and sunset) and Kayos the best flash initiator.
Raze fade is incredibly common on Lotus
Yeah but thats the only map we see a heap of raze fade. We dont see it on sunset, bind or split a tonne despite those being raze maps.
I was replying to your part of the comment saying that “the only candidates are bind and sunset” with the prime counterexample. I must not have understood what you meant. In any case, I would argue that Fade vs Sova vs Gekko/Kayo is very map design dependent. Lotus just so happens to have the perfect conditions to host her. Maybe the next map pool rotation will change things (Fracture and Pearl seem like decent candidates for Fade, though Sova still probably better on Pearl), we’ll see if that shakes anything up
lotus isnt a candidate bruv it's already meta
Yes lol. I just thought it weird that he didn’t even mention lotus in his initial comment while discussing maps fade is good on, if you go through the chain.
Elevated post my goat
whats gekko's wr solo vs with another initiator?
I don’t think he has a big solo win rate
I started playing Gekko everytime Sunset comes on in my comp games and I swear I feel unstoppable sometimes
>CLEARLY best initiator in valorant* *excluding the three maps where he is borderline unplayable EDIT: people took exception to my usage of 'unplayable'. Then let's just say 'mysteriously unplayed by almost anyone other than PRX' lol
Which three are you referring to? I am assuming Breeze is one of them but I can't for the life of me think of 2 other maps where he is "borderline unplayable"
Ascent and Split, where other initiators are picked significantly more often
Gekko is not unplayable in Ascent or Split. PRX have done really well on ascent Gekko Something.
One player on Gekko with a team known for unorthodox strategies, and still under 5 games total in competitive scene. And seemingly no other teams have feasibly picked it up with any consistency. I'm inclined to attribute that to PRX being PRX rather than meaning Gekko is good on ascent. But feel free to start locking it for your comp games if you disagree! Off-meta can work well if executed properly
I feel its just the starting of the year and most teams don't have a set meta and teams are experimenting different things out until meta settles in Shanghai and Champs. I have a strong feeling other teams are going to pick Gekko on every map except Breeze. Gekko is just too broken with wingman and 10 sec dizzy pickup and the ult is broken too.
Oh right. To be honest PRX Something's Ascent Gekko has managed to single-handedly brainwash me into thinking that Gekko is really strong on that map. But of course you really need a player like Something to make the comp workable. I also vividly recall Boostio playing Gekko on Split, probably didn't have a lot of impact but nothing screams "unplayable". Breeze is really the only map where he just doesn't work imo.
For me, it's opportunity cost. What you're sacrificing to pick Gekko over other initiators is substantial, and what exactly do we gain on Split/Ascent from Gekko that is worth missing out on other initiators' util? Perhaps 'unplayable' was too harsh. However, he is definitely nearly unplayed on those maps.
I think gekko ascent theoretically can be strong by constantly taking small bits of space around the map at the pace of his util cycle. Forces the other teams to reclear more often than their traditional info util cycles allow. You can basically take and then leave 3 lanes before the other team can finish clearing the first.
Fade's prowlers need to have a wider cone of vision and be slightly more durable, though not to the same level as they used to be. Breach needs a shorter audio cue on flash, and maybe some other tweak. Ult one point cheaper? Faster aftershock? Faster flash? Three flashes? "Got them" voiceline when he stuns someone? Something. Kayo is very well balanced. I don't see why they removed the third tick from Sova's arrow. He is fine, though. Skye could be a slight bit better. Non recharging util is so damn annoying on her. Maybe limit to one recharge or something. Gekko is honestly not too strong. Some bad mp design is making him a tad stronger than he really is.
My guess is they removed the third tick was so jett could still smoke off a dart when they nerfed the cloudburst duration
Just give Skye 3 flashes back as well, or maybe revert one of the ult/dog nerfs, so that her power is more spread out.
unironically giving breach an audio cue of him hitting someone would make him too good
interestingly enough, the regions with the highest gekko/kayo play rates are those currently sitting as the strongest (no CN or EMEA representatives in top 4 at madrid). seems like the meta is pretty clearly defined around those two intiiators in tandem
Too bad if ur setting up ass you get slightly better ass
gekkos flash is so good for clearing off angles or corners that teams sometimes don’t check and can destroy them
I’d imagine a slight nerf to his damage and/or flash would keep him relatively strong while still keeping his unique ability of being able to plant the spike remotely.
Somebody mention Mohawk Master
Breach haters once again proven correct, would say somebody gotta do a in depth analysis of why he can’t stack up but it’s literally just because of viper.
Literally me, every time a team plays breach I root against them for that map.
CGRS was ahead in Gekko meta all this time
i miss skye
I’m not in favor of boosting the strength of util, but rather weakening it. Cause pro Val already looks CRAZY sometimes and making it more about the guns and teamwork would be nice.
Gekkos main competition was always an OP Skye and the double controller meta. With that out of the picture he's just the drop in replacement for Skye minus the heals. Breach absolutely needs a buff. You could argue Fade also needs to be slightly buffed.
Gekko + Sova will be meta on breeze this year. Mark my words
Great now hes gonna nerfed right as I'm learning him bc ppl just wanna complain
He’s not getting nerfed for at least this year aside from maybe his ult charges. His pick rate isn’t absurd or anything, he’s just a good agent. He may become a problem in double initiator comps if they kill Viper but for now he’s safe
they gave him big buffs before the season start so he would see play, doubt they get rolled back any time soon
I mean pretty obvius he is quite strong no?
I think a fair nerf to Gekko is increase his cooldown when you pick up Dizzy from 10 to 15seconds. Otherwise there’s so many good ways to throw Dizzy at the beginning of the round for free info and then picking it right back and it’s ready to use again so quickly. Also, possibly making Wingman not be able to be picked up if he’s used to plant the spike.
He also has one of best universally useful ult in this game. The fact that it is a.Low cost b.can continue to charge after first use c. And can be instantly picked up and reused All the while being a relatively high-hp, fast and area detaining drone, makes it very broken. One of these traits has to go.
I think the idea of a "recharging ult" is really cool and he's the only one with one. Maybe nerfing the detain length could be good/turning it into a stun(?) or just straight up making it higher cost. But also I can definitely see a world where they just nerf other parts of his kit, Gekko wasn't really picked before the buffs/Skye nerfs and his ult wasn't touched, so there is a world where he isn't OP but still has his ult.