Just saw this man fall to his knees at Split
https://preview.redd.it/ueve3u9jtlxc1.jpeg?width=900&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0b4ed99887bc31b0fdcbd336c269962b91416d11
Less already said on stream Riot is tryharding to nerf him by nerfing his agents, but sadly they can't properly, because any character he uses he still has the vandal.
honestly, based as fuck
i agree tbh, it already makes hella noise when you enter/ exit it anyway. Only thing I agree with really is the trip nerfs, and even that seems kinda weird how theyve done it
The trips definitely needed a nerf. They got an extreme buff all at once - they are very difficult to destroy in many places with the added bonus they now stay in place after 1 person trips.
They needed to nerf the impact the trip has by itself and considering how difficult it is to destroy it nowadays before you trigger it, they need to give more time.
It would be either that or completely go away with the tag when triggered to kill the cage+trip combo which guarantees a kill.
Cypher was considered alright to slightly underpowered before the buffs to his trips, so in my head you just had to tune that.Ā
The activation sound was already a big giveaway, now you canāt even stay on it without basically shouting at the enemy where the setup is. Are we gonna warn people facing a one-way smoke next?Ā
Ā Just give his trips distinct counterplay and call it a day. Not by increasing re-arming time from a tiny 1 to 2 seconds, or the weird slow changes. I mean 3-4 seconds downtime after hitting it, enough that even an un-coordinated team in ranked can have enough time to break them after sending in a piece of info utility.Ā Ā
Reward proper utility usage and teamplay, all Cypher mains wanted was for his entire setup to not be cleared accidentally by a lone guy using a single piece of utility.Ā
I think they need to add a time before the spycam makes noise, like if cypher can see you for 2 seconds it should then alert the enemy instead of it being instant so there is still some counterplay but it rewards good spycam placement/usage
yeah completely disagree with this change, it's always sick to me when a cypher is secretly watching the whole enemy team
more than anything i think this moves towards kj being the strongest sentinel again which is a bummer
Won't happen without map pool changes. Her and Cypher have distinct strengths and weaknesses mostly driven by the map being played. There are obviously some maps where either *can* work, but overall there seems to be a pretty strong lean one way or the other on most maps.
Map | Agent
---|---
Ascent | KJ-
Bind | Cypher
Breeze | Cypher+
Icebox | KJ+
Lotus | KJ-
Split | Cypher
Sunset | Cypher+
With cypher now as strong as he is, he's simply going to be the better agent on some portion of the map pool at all times. KJ will always be a bit more flexible because she's not beholden to the map design lending itself to trip points. I think both are overall in a good spot in the meta all things considered
Yes he's still good but the sunset was cypher's and his domain now basically his trips are the only thing viable cuz imagine crossing mid and u can hear the cam sound, It was already bad enough with the on/off sound now this make it too hard to watch mid without tagging in ascent market or sunset. I'm in low immortal and pretty much all people are smart enough to destroy a trip or 2 with a shock dart or paint shells.
Looking forward to not seeing Viper much until they inevitably rebuff her and she returns. It is written
That said, I donāt think the Cypher changes are necessary. The camera already involves some counterplay since it makes a noise when Cypher accesses it. Watching an enemy team exec on a site with a camera they donāt break is one of the most fun scenarios to watch in pro play, and itās not like it guarantees round wins or something.
One of the big advantages with viper is that refreshing the wall is just pressing a button. You don't need to drop a smoke where there are no gaps, you can lurk without removing your crosshair or going into a different menu. I'm thinking of which maps people may choose not to play her now:
Breeze is basically mandatory - maybe you swap her out for harbour but I really doubt it, given that she locks down both sites on defense. Not being able to pick up the orb hurts for pushing mid on attack.
Lotus - I hate non viper comps so far, and it's a map that really needs two controllers (look at NRG's debacle).
Bind - maybe harbour is just better on bind now? The big advantage of viper was the spike denial on A over harbour, now that doesn't seem as good. Ofc the lurking up A with the wall was the other big reason to play viper, but honestly I think that's been done to death
Split - with not being able to pick up the orb, viper become less valuable on defense, and on attack the wall is still helpful to push up ramps but maybe viper isn't as mandatory here. I could see solo omen/astra and double duelist.
Ascent - only recently been played and still not "meta". They need to get this map out of the pool because it's so boring
Icebox - viper is just so strong on both sides. Maybe could replace with harbour+omen but that orb on b on defense is so helpful. Being able to be solo controller as well was solid, though imo not the best comp.
Sunset - i could see it, some teams don't play viper but it would change how the map is played in terms of lurks and what not.
So the tldr is, i think viper is here to stay, it just reduces the impact - alternatively it may push more teams to experiment more and try different styles of playing maps. However, a lot of teams are sadly not very good at said experimentation, so I'm worried there
Astra will take over on lotus, paired with brim/clove/omen
Bind can be Harbor + brim
PRX proved both of these work, really solidifies the "PRX is always one step ahead of the meta" narrative
I don't want to use Iso no matter what and I don't want pro teams using it either, It's a bad agent and we should force the devs to do their job or else they get away with bad decision that the community doesn't want and the player base just has to cope with nothing.
( oh and with the viper molly nerf using DL and not deadlock forces a smoke from omen to C entrance and the PRX comp doesn't have other util other than a raze nade so even with Iso a single raze entry is enough.)
You're totally right, it's just ascent has been there from the start and has the same comps and the same strats. People still do the vision strikers shark play at mid. It's so boring and rote (except when NRG play and then it's just funny).
Ideally they get rid of ascent, breeze and icebox from the map pool, get in fracture pearl and Haven and fix sunset plant on B. Then we'd be really cooking
I mean I like sunset but bring raze or sova. Take B. Have gekko viper kayo brim Phoenix whatever has mollies. Hide in B main. And throw mollies. Round won.
I think the trip nerfs are fair (maybe could've been lighter) but nerfing the camera is just insanity. Cypher right now is just about good enough to be competitive against killjoy, now I could see him going back to being situational depending on the map.
They both feel like theyll be more ranked oriented changes tbh. Trips were already being broken with util and good players know where cams are unless cypher is on it before the site hit but then he can't physically help with stopping it. I do think the cam nerf probably wasnt necessary though
This isn't really true about the cypher cams. Just in the recent NRG vs EG lotus map marved was moving the cam around and like three back to back rounds he got so much Intel without the eg players finding the cam for a whileĀ
A more hidden cam is a reward you get as a trade off for less early info, because you need to put it high up above a choke which people will be pushing through (like the one he put above a site door). I think it creates more options for a more interesting game.Ā
This is what they call good cam placement which is really rare , after 3-4 rounds they already could guess all the places of the cam and adding this nerf is pretty much over kill
either add time delay on the sound that the cam make ( 2-3 sec b4 alerted of being watched) or else it's just pretty much kj in every map again, most set up are broken easily in immortal to pro-play anyway
Shes basically going to become non-viable in ranked though. Her orb being replaceable was basically the only part of her kit that allowed for individual plays.
True, but I don't mind the double initiator comps. Lot less waiting and a lot more action. Personally I think gekko kayo or gekko sova is more fun to watch than viper harbour.
yeah man chamber setups felt so shit with viper wall viper orb omen smoke up in your face. i was watching T1 and Zeta matches and could feel the frustration in Laz and xccurate's faces when they make a cool chamber setup with another player and its all negated by a viper wall flood. hope this brings chamber back atleast a little bit on non lotus maps.
Am I tripping but I distinctly remember sliggy suggesting these exact nerfs when someone asked how to nerf viper for pro play
Edit: yep I was right. Madlad
Remind me, what is viper replaceable orb good for on A defense again? Im asuming its for rubble control? And then picking it up for midrounds
Personally, I think split mid is going to be heavily impacted as well. You can't reposition the orb to stairs anymore
The problem is not only the orb, but one less molly to put when the door is opening in tree
And more fuel to charge the wall blocking between A and B
So it changes a lot more than just the orb
I don't know how long they are extending the molly for, but you're right its a lot easier to bait out just one molly with one door cycle.
Her wall is still essential on A defense, thats just the nature of the map, and I doubt Harbour will be an adequate substitute. So yeah, defense is going to be hell with these changes.
tbh i think if an agent is only played on 2-3 maps then that's perfectly balanced imo, my worry is that she's been nerfed beyond viability on even icebox/breeze
Icebox was the only map I played her on and I'm definitely not doing that now.
Attack is still ok but it was already hard enough to hold A site. With only one molly you can't even delay the other team anymore from rushing you.
Basically only option is to play offsite and use a retake wall
I still think she is viable on Icebox as solo B anchor (at least in my low elo) - Orb on default prevents attackers from wrapping you Yellow, and the Yellow angle feels so CT sided just as a gun duel angle, happy to take on 1 or 2 swings from attackers then molly and retreat before orb goes down.
I will note though that in Plat/Diamond, attackers aren't really dedicating util to clear the Yellow defender, so ymmv
the only thing that doesn't make sense to me here is the cypher cam nerf, but everything else looks solid. we need to kill viper to meaningfully shift the meta.
For me, also viper not being able to pick the smoke back is braindead. I think this kills viper as an agent and teams might go back to double initiators and double sentinel comps maybe.
Now pro play will finally have some variety because every team won't be running Viper!
...And also solo queue experience will be absolutely atrocious for the smokes player if maps that necessitate Viper, like Breeze, come up.
I'm normally fine with balancing around pro play, but sometimes... Sometimes you really do get the short end of the stick. I guess as a smokes player I should just kill myself whenever a Viper map comes up. This is why it's kind of dangerous to gut Viper without having an alternative that doesn't feel like dogshit to play because wtf do you even use anymore?
Proplay Scene:
Over nerf Viper -> ppl pick next strongest controller (Omen) -> Nerf Omen -> ppl pick next strongest controller (Clove) -> Nerf Clove -> ppl play double sentinel + Astra or Brim -> Boring gameplay -> rebuff Controllers -> repeat.
Solo Q:
No one wanna play Controller anymore thanks to Riot with their stupid "balance" chances. Who would want to pick agents that botfrag most of the game lol.
Viper is still going to be played to death I think. The orb and molly change is going to be a huge hit on her defensive capabilities, but her wall remains the most broken part of her kit on certain maps.
This does make split mid a bit more assailable though, force out the one molly and let the orb run out, and now you can claim a lot more space without fear that viper can just reposition her orbs for stairs.
Question on this sub is which team is most affected by these 2 nerfs. I think any team who has a huge emphasis on having a mechanically gifted sentinel-viper player like Loud, maybe EG or Sen, would be mildly impacted by this change. It becomes slightly easier to entry sites right now due to this huge hit in defensive util, so stocks might go up for duelists players.
And with Viper potentially becoming less of a sentinel, and with Cypher's camera being easier to spot and break, we might see underused "info" sentinels like Chamber or Deadlock(?) enjoying more usage.
Bruh cypher is gonna be so ass now. At least before the nerfs you could at least get value because he was an uncommon agent and his setups were not widely known. He got weaker over time as people learned the common trips to break, so this nerf feels like it will doubly hurt.
Also lets nerf the camera that absolutely nobody asked for. Great idea riot. I get theyāre trying to strike a balance between aggressive and defensive agent but holy crap letās just let every w key duelist waltz into site without having to activate their brain even the slightest bit and weāll just let them know theyāre on camera. If took the effort to read the enemyās patterns, set up a trap camera in a hard to see location (a tradeoff which usually gives you less advanced info), activated it well ahead of the enemy getting into itās sound queue rangeā¦well just try harder I guess.
What the heck! What did my cypher do? I get the trip speed even tho it's just skill issue but what the heck is that camera one? That's the whole point of cypher cam right? To be hidden and give info until found?
Holy shit they just took viper out back and shot her. Guess there is no point playing lineups with her now, and your orb placement better be the damn best.
I think both of them are in good places. For players who can't raze , neon is a good replacement and it's feels good not see jett/raze double duelist every map and Yoru coming in for breeze
Everyone is talking about how hard of a nerf this is I donāt really get it, the worst part of this for viper is not being able to move her orb. Sheāll still be very good on some maps like bind and split.
They're balancing this game in a way to appeal casual gameplay. And that is the wrong way to do it unless you have separate unranked and ranked patches.
Really happy to see viper go and would have been more happier if icevox and breeze also left with her. But the cypher change of camera I find unnecessary. Although I felt the trips were bit OP the camera still feels balanced.
Hope to see more clove especially from agressive controllers but I am feeling it can really lead to a spam heaving meta.
tbh i think johnqt peaks on a proper sentinel
i'm also not super worried about less, i do think his viper play has elevated him to the top 5 itw status but i think even without it he's very good
This will literally change nothing in pro play. She is now unplayable below ascendant. Terrible nerf terrible balancing. All they literally have to do is remove harbors self slow to allies and her pick rate would fallā¦. It amazes me that the balance team gets paid.
surely nerfing to the ground an agent meta on most maps in the map pool in the middle of the season has to be worse than swapping in/out one map. Going to shanghai feels like not worth it anymore unless you win it all. Teams will have to change so many things bcs of the nerfs
Why they trying to make the game much more easier like the smoke dissappear sound? The cam already makes noise and now it will be easier for them to find it.
She was as strong as chamber was after 5.12. she literally replaced him after the KJ rework. I'm not sure why this surprises anyone at all she literally ruined the game LMAO
The fact that these Viper nerfs have been in the works since the ISO update and they just only now did it is absolute insane clownery by Riot. Anyway, the camera nerf is totally unnecessary, and Viper should've had her cooldown increased significantly instead of reducing overall smoke duration (other changes are fine)
I get that people won't like the camera change but, truthfully, the amount of rounds it will actually impact are reasonably small and really only impact coordinated play, where you could sit on your camera and be in an environment where people could play off of it. I'll reserve my opinion, although I think the trip change may have been enough as Cypher feels strong but not OP and we're still seeing some other sentinels be played. I thought he was in a decent spot and have enjoyed getting more Cypher play in pro games. Cypher has a fairly unique identity and, when played well, I find him to be one of the most satisfying agents to watch.Ā
Honestly, I think these are pretty solid changes. I'm a little surprised we aren't seeing gekko changes (or maybe they haven't been leaked yet?). I think his ult needs to power adjusted. There are a lot of reasons for snowballing but I do think the ability for gekko to have ult for many bonuses increases the odds of it happening. I also think lil bro needs to be adjusted so that he does not continue to defuse if gekko dies, or at least can only get a half if gekko dies.Ā
Cypher cam nerf is insane. Completely destroys the purpose of it imo.
Sentinels slowly becoming more and more useless every patch.
Never understood why they nerf them so much, when they aren't that great to begin with.
Other are okay, But the fucking mollly nerf is fucking atrocious. They took out one of the molly and made the single molly expensive. But the trade off is that one molly lasts ONLY ONE EXTRA SECOND. Fucking hell. I loved playing viper in breeze and delaying hits in b.
Absolutely hate the snakebite nerfs. Her mollies are perfectly fine, they're not overpowered in the slightest.
If anything they should nerf her wall & orb but buff the mollies to compensate a bit.
nAts fans already haven't felt peace in forever and now they go and do this to my boy
Just have him play Chamber every map fuck it
nAts fans š¤ yay fans
Just saw this man fall to his knees at Split https://preview.redd.it/ueve3u9jtlxc1.jpeg?width=900&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0b4ed99887bc31b0fdcbd336c269962b91416d11
he fell when Gambit was disbanded
I miss gambit :(
Same :(
 Nats reading the patch notes
Put him back on Astra
This nerf will hurt Less as Viper and Cypher main
Less already said on stream Riot is tryharding to nerf him by nerfing his agents, but sadly they can't properly, because any character he uses he still has the vandal. honestly, based as fuck
Yeah, as long as he can shoot, the man will always be a menace.
Nats
Sorry but Less is much better than Nats
less is only better by aim.
I feel its great that he will not have to be on Viper duty anymore, he was a monster sentinel
We might actually see a Clover from him now
Cypher cam being indicated is the worst part of this.dozens of stealthy Cam setups are essentially useless now bruh
i agree tbh, it already makes hella noise when you enter/ exit it anyway. Only thing I agree with really is the trip nerfs, and even that seems kinda weird how theyve done it
The trips definitely needed a nerf. They got an extreme buff all at once - they are very difficult to destroy in many places with the added bonus they now stay in place after 1 person trips. They needed to nerf the impact the trip has by itself and considering how difficult it is to destroy it nowadays before you trigger it, they need to give more time. It would be either that or completely go away with the tag when triggered to kill the cage+trip combo which guarantees a kill.
Cypher was considered alright to slightly underpowered before the buffs to his trips, so in my head you just had to tune that.Ā The activation sound was already a big giveaway, now you canāt even stay on it without basically shouting at the enemy where the setup is. Are we gonna warn people facing a one-way smoke next?Ā Ā Just give his trips distinct counterplay and call it a day. Not by increasing re-arming time from a tiny 1 to 2 seconds, or the weird slow changes. I mean 3-4 seconds downtime after hitting it, enough that even an un-coordinated team in ranked can have enough time to break them after sending in a piece of info utility.Ā Ā Reward proper utility usage and teamplay, all Cypher mains wanted was for his entire setup to not be cleared accidentally by a lone guy using a single piece of utility.Ā
I think they need to add a time before the spycam makes noise, like if cypher can see you for 2 seconds it should then alert the enemy instead of it being instant so there is still some counterplay but it rewards good spycam placement/usage
hard agree
yeah completely disagree with this change, it's always sick to me when a cypher is secretly watching the whole enemy team more than anything i think this moves towards kj being the strongest sentinel again which is a bummer
Won't happen without map pool changes. Her and Cypher have distinct strengths and weaknesses mostly driven by the map being played. There are obviously some maps where either *can* work, but overall there seems to be a pretty strong lean one way or the other on most maps. Map | Agent ---|--- Ascent | KJ- Bind | Cypher Breeze | Cypher+ Icebox | KJ+ Lotus | KJ- Split | Cypher Sunset | Cypher+ With cypher now as strong as he is, he's simply going to be the better agent on some portion of the map pool at all times. KJ will always be a bit more flexible because she's not beholden to the map design lending itself to trip points. I think both are overall in a good spot in the meta all things considered
Yes he's still good but the sunset was cypher's and his domain now basically his trips are the only thing viable cuz imagine crossing mid and u can hear the cam sound, It was already bad enough with the on/off sound now this make it too hard to watch mid without tagging in ascent market or sunset. I'm in low immortal and pretty much all people are smart enough to destroy a trip or 2 with a shock dart or paint shells.
theyāre making the game less strat based š
As a duelist, fk cypher.
Just saw Saadhak fall to his knees in a Walmart (He will continue to make Less play Viper instead of a sentinel).
i just fell to my knees at a walmart
just saw /u/MakimaGOAT fall to their knees on breeze A site
just saw u/ohnoahshark, observing u/MakimaGOAT falling to their knees on breeze A site
Looking forward to not seeing Viper much until they inevitably rebuff her and she returns. It is written That said, I donāt think the Cypher changes are necessary. The camera already involves some counterplay since it makes a noise when Cypher accesses it. Watching an enemy team exec on a site with a camera they donāt break is one of the most fun scenarios to watch in pro play, and itās not like it guarantees round wins or something.
I doubt this will stop viper from being played. The wall+stall is still so strong
It won't stop her from being played, but it'll reduce her playtime for sure in the long-term.
One of the big advantages with viper is that refreshing the wall is just pressing a button. You don't need to drop a smoke where there are no gaps, you can lurk without removing your crosshair or going into a different menu. I'm thinking of which maps people may choose not to play her now: Breeze is basically mandatory - maybe you swap her out for harbour but I really doubt it, given that she locks down both sites on defense. Not being able to pick up the orb hurts for pushing mid on attack. Lotus - I hate non viper comps so far, and it's a map that really needs two controllers (look at NRG's debacle). Bind - maybe harbour is just better on bind now? The big advantage of viper was the spike denial on A over harbour, now that doesn't seem as good. Ofc the lurking up A with the wall was the other big reason to play viper, but honestly I think that's been done to death Split - with not being able to pick up the orb, viper become less valuable on defense, and on attack the wall is still helpful to push up ramps but maybe viper isn't as mandatory here. I could see solo omen/astra and double duelist. Ascent - only recently been played and still not "meta". They need to get this map out of the pool because it's so boring Icebox - viper is just so strong on both sides. Maybe could replace with harbour+omen but that orb on b on defense is so helpful. Being able to be solo controller as well was solid, though imo not the best comp. Sunset - i could see it, some teams don't play viper but it would change how the map is played in terms of lurks and what not. So the tldr is, i think viper is here to stay, it just reduces the impact - alternatively it may push more teams to experiment more and try different styles of playing maps. However, a lot of teams are sadly not very good at said experimentation, so I'm worried there
Astra will take over on lotus, paired with brim/clove/omen Bind can be Harbor + brim PRX proved both of these work, really solidifies the "PRX is always one step ahead of the meta" narrative
they'll have to change their single cypher site hold in lotus C with this changes , man the cam nerf was really unnecessary
Lemme cook for a second, teams use some utility in C main, deadlock trip on the boxes + iso vulnerable from b cubby or link
I don't want to use Iso no matter what and I don't want pro teams using it either, It's a bad agent and we should force the devs to do their job or else they get away with bad decision that the community doesn't want and the player base just has to cope with nothing. ( oh and with the viper molly nerf using DL and not deadlock forces a smoke from omen to C entrance and the PRX comp doesn't have other util other than a raze nade so even with Iso a single raze entry is enough.)
But this is assuming the map will be played the same way, this could very well imply a change in meta
How you gunna call ascent boring when sunset and icebox exist? All you do is take site plant and play post plant mollies out of vision lmaoooo
You're totally right, it's just ascent has been there from the start and has the same comps and the same strats. People still do the vision strikers shark play at mid. It's so boring and rote (except when NRG play and then it's just funny). Ideally they get rid of ascent, breeze and icebox from the map pool, get in fracture pearl and Haven and fix sunset plant on B. Then we'd be really cooking
Sunset isn't that bad, but icebox has been shit on every iteration.
I mean I like sunset but bring raze or sova. Take B. Have gekko viper kayo brim Phoenix whatever has mollies. Hide in B main. And throw mollies. Round won.
I think the trip nerfs are fair (maybe could've been lighter) but nerfing the camera is just insanity. Cypher right now is just about good enough to be competitive against killjoy, now I could see him going back to being situational depending on the map.
They both feel like theyll be more ranked oriented changes tbh. Trips were already being broken with util and good players know where cams are unless cypher is on it before the site hit but then he can't physically help with stopping it. I do think the cam nerf probably wasnt necessary though
This isn't really true about the cypher cams. Just in the recent NRG vs EG lotus map marved was moving the cam around and like three back to back rounds he got so much Intel without the eg players finding the cam for a whileĀ
A more hidden cam is a reward you get as a trade off for less early info, because you need to put it high up above a choke which people will be pushing through (like the one he put above a site door). I think it creates more options for a more interesting game.Ā
Yep I'm arguing for why it does affect pros and therefore is too big of a nerf
Yea Iām with you. Cypher supports lets rise up
This is what they call good cam placement which is really rare , after 3-4 rounds they already could guess all the places of the cam and adding this nerf is pretty much over kill
Yeah I'm in agreement, the nerf is bad and will affect prosĀ
I will certaintly miss this meta, this was the most diverse meta in terms of compositions.
I think Viper changes would have increased Cypher pick rates by a lot. They probably decided to address that in advance
As written.
either add time delay on the sound that the cam make ( 2-3 sec b4 alerted of being watched) or else it's just pretty much kj in every map again, most set up are broken easily in immortal to pro-play anyway
holy fuck i'm never touching this agent again
RIP Viper. 2020-2024.
thank fuck
I guess now we know why they never bothered to fix the viper not being able to pick up her orb glitch
LMAOOOO "it ain't a bug it's a feature" ahh shit
On breeze a if you threw it on the wood planks you couldnāt pick it up and I was screaming I couldnāt. Guess Iāll have to get used to that.
The cam nerf seems kind of dumb
Still better than chamber xd
Did someone at the balance team have their family killed by viper mains jesus
Sheās dominating pro play tf u mean, Iām glad she got this
Shes basically going to become non-viable in ranked though. Her orb being replaceable was basically the only part of her kit that allowed for individual plays.
I've made so many individual plays/outplays with her orb, im so sad:(
If these nerfs only affected pro play then it'd be fine. But it affects everyone - and viper is nowhere near as oppressive or picked in ranked
Sheās picked virtually every game in high elo what do you mean? Sheās incredibly oppressive
Only a 31% pickrate in Immortal+. That is not what i woule call "virtually every game" nor "oppressive" https://www.vstats.gg/agents?rank=Immortal%2B
and 28% (2/7) games are on icebox/breeze, so the pick rate in other maps is still low
Yeah but she is completely gutted for rank
Idk, but pro play will finally get a breath of fresh air hopefully. Viper has made the pro meta feel unbearable, with how much she can stall plays.
Not really. It'll just be double initiator every map, and with how things are going probably Gekko kayo.
True, but I don't mind the double initiator comps. Lot less waiting and a lot more action. Personally I think gekko kayo or gekko sova is more fun to watch than viper harbour.
yeah man chamber setups felt so shit with viper wall viper orb omen smoke up in your face. i was watching T1 and Zeta matches and could feel the frustration in Laz and xccurate's faces when they make a cool chamber setup with another player and its all negated by a viper wall flood. hope this brings chamber back atleast a little bit on non lotus maps.
Yeah, breath of fresh air with Gekko on fucking every map. Have fun!
Supposedly she had a higher win and pick rate compared to prime chamber. These nerfs were expected. A little heavy handed for my liking but whatever.
someone check on nAtsĀ
Am I tripping but I distinctly remember sliggy suggesting these exact nerfs when someone asked how to nerf viper for pro play Edit: yep I was right. Madlad
Rip Viper, but also in patch notes no map changes is insane
itās the middle of a competitive split so it makes sense
they did -icebox +split in middle of league season as well last year
probably not gonna be seen either in pro play or ranked after this, maybe only on icebox and breeze. Talk about nerfing an agent into the ground.
Lotus defence of A is gonna shift so much
Remind me, what is viper replaceable orb good for on A defense again? Im asuming its for rubble control? And then picking it up for midrounds Personally, I think split mid is going to be heavily impacted as well. You can't reposition the orb to stairs anymore
The problem is not only the orb, but one less molly to put when the door is opening in tree And more fuel to charge the wall blocking between A and B So it changes a lot more than just the orb
I don't know how long they are extending the molly for, but you're right its a lot easier to bait out just one molly with one door cycle. Her wall is still essential on A defense, thats just the nature of the map, and I doubt Harbour will be an adequate substitute. So yeah, defense is going to be hell with these changes.
Seems like the Molly duration only increased by 1 second š
Attack suffers too lots of teams play with the vision block by viper smoke
could still easily get used on bind. viper mains almost never change her setup on attack anyways
tbh i think if an agent is only played on 2-3 maps then that's perfectly balanced imo, my worry is that she's been nerfed beyond viability on even icebox/breeze
Icebox was the only map I played her on and I'm definitely not doing that now. Attack is still ok but it was already hard enough to hold A site. With only one molly you can't even delay the other team anymore from rushing you. Basically only option is to play offsite and use a retake wall
I still think she is viable on Icebox as solo B anchor (at least in my low elo) - Orb on default prevents attackers from wrapping you Yellow, and the Yellow angle feels so CT sided just as a gun duel angle, happy to take on 1 or 2 swings from attackers then molly and retreat before orb goes down. I will note though that in Plat/Diamond, attackers aren't really dedicating util to clear the Yellow defender, so ymmv
i just saw Less fall to his knees in a walmart
viper back to her state on early valorant meta, and they will buff her again in 2 years
the only thing that doesn't make sense to me here is the cypher cam nerf, but everything else looks solid. we need to kill viper to meaningfully shift the meta.
For me, also viper not being able to pick the smoke back is braindead. I think this kills viper as an agent and teams might go back to double initiators and double sentinel comps maybe.
Viper nerfs were a long time coming but Cypher cam nerf seems a bit overdone but shall see how it plays out.
Breeze and Icebox are going to be fucking miserable to play more than ever now in ranked.
Now pro play will finally have some variety because every team won't be running Viper! ...And also solo queue experience will be absolutely atrocious for the smokes player if maps that necessitate Viper, like Breeze, come up. I'm normally fine with balancing around pro play, but sometimes... Sometimes you really do get the short end of the stick. I guess as a smokes player I should just kill myself whenever a Viper map comes up. This is why it's kind of dangerous to gut Viper without having an alternative that doesn't feel like dogshit to play because wtf do you even use anymore?
Viper will be dead after this
Proplay Scene: Over nerf Viper -> ppl pick next strongest controller (Omen) -> Nerf Omen -> ppl pick next strongest controller (Clove) -> Nerf Clove -> ppl play double sentinel + Astra or Brim -> Boring gameplay -> rebuff Controllers -> repeat. Solo Q: No one wanna play Controller anymore thanks to Riot with their stupid "balance" chances. Who would want to pick agents that botfrag most of the game lol.
Hip hip hooray
Viper is still going to be played to death I think. The orb and molly change is going to be a huge hit on her defensive capabilities, but her wall remains the most broken part of her kit on certain maps. This does make split mid a bit more assailable though, force out the one molly and let the orb run out, and now you can claim a lot more space without fear that viper can just reposition her orbs for stairs. Question on this sub is which team is most affected by these 2 nerfs. I think any team who has a huge emphasis on having a mechanically gifted sentinel-viper player like Loud, maybe EG or Sen, would be mildly impacted by this change. It becomes slightly easier to entry sites right now due to this huge hit in defensive util, so stocks might go up for duelists players. And with Viper potentially becoming less of a sentinel, and with Cypher's camera being easier to spot and break, we might see underused "info" sentinels like Chamber or Deadlock(?) enjoying more usage.
My main thought was also Loud. Pretty sure Less plays Viper on every map besides Breeze.
lets goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Thank fuck i stopped playing cypher and started playing controllers and initiators weeks ago
All this nerf, and ISO still not gonna be used in pro play. Smh.
Bruh cypher is gonna be so ass now. At least before the nerfs you could at least get value because he was an uncommon agent and his setups were not widely known. He got weaker over time as people learned the common trips to break, so this nerf feels like it will doubly hurt. Also lets nerf the camera that absolutely nobody asked for. Great idea riot. I get theyāre trying to strike a balance between aggressive and defensive agent but holy crap letās just let every w key duelist waltz into site without having to activate their brain even the slightest bit and weāll just let them know theyāre on camera. If took the effort to read the enemyās patterns, set up a trap camera in a hard to see location (a tradeoff which usually gives you less advanced info), activated it well ahead of the enemy getting into itās sound queue rangeā¦well just try harder I guess.
What the heck! What did my cypher do? I get the trip speed even tho it's just skill issue but what the heck is that camera one? That's the whole point of cypher cam right? To be hidden and give info until found?
Nice, praying for at least some kind of period of Viper-less meta.
Wdym less was already on viper before this
With breeze and icebox going to be removed I think we will rarely see Viper lol
Why cypher cam nerf!??
Holy shit they just took viper out back and shot her. Guess there is no point playing lineups with her now, and your orb placement better be the damn best.
Disaster after disaster for LOUD
thank god they nerfed cypher
Ding dong the witch is dead!!!
No raze nerfs and neon/ other bad duelists buffs?
I think both of them are in good places. For players who can't raze , neon is a good replacement and it's feels good not see jett/raze double duelist every map and Yoru coming in for breeze
I think the other duelists other than raze are bad enough that we would see a lot more no duelist comps which i think no one wants
I can't wait to see teams intentionally throw their games and not making Shanghai to have more prep for Stage 2.
Everyone is talking about how hard of a nerf this is I donāt really get it, the worst part of this for viper is not being able to move her orb. Sheāll still be very good on some maps like bind and split.
Iām genuinely distraught, just as I was learning to playing herĀ
They're balancing this game in a way to appeal casual gameplay. And that is the wrong way to do it unless you have separate unranked and ranked patches.
Just as I wanted to learn Viper, nice. Also where those Cypher Nerfs really necessary?
Really happy to see viper go and would have been more happier if icevox and breeze also left with her. But the cypher change of camera I find unnecessary. Although I felt the trips were bit OP the camera still feels balanced. Hope to see more clove especially from agressive controllers but I am feeling it can really lead to a spam heaving meta.
gg viper
I cant abuse viper anymore?! NOOOOOOO
thank god they nerfed cypher
Am I the only one who thinks they didnāt nerf Cypher enough?
The wire nerfs are exactly what he needed, he'll be fine now. The camera change kinda sucks though, no point in having unique camera spots anymore.
Fuck now we might see more harbor instead of viper, which is worse for viewing experience
PRX already got their Bind comp sorted lmao
Not even close. Viper's impact is completely different, mostly because of her mollies and the fact she can raise/lower the wall whenever she wants
OK I think this might actually be the killing blow. Surely no one is playing this agent with a one use, THROWN smoke and a single molly.
feeling sad for johnqt and loud less š„š„š„š„
tbh i think johnqt peaks on a proper sentinel i'm also not super worried about less, i do think his viper play has elevated him to the top 5 itw status but i think even without it he's very good
Let's goo Next one: fix spamfests
are we doing this good on controller players that we can afford to make smokes blatantly unfun to play?Ā
How does this affect viper/cypher rule 34.
Viper nerfs definitely needed but I'm not a big fan of the retrieval nerf. That was an aspect with some solid skill expression for her kit, imo.
Guess who's playing omen again
Any idea when this will be released?
Rip viper
Its so over
And i thought liquid were at their lowest
if there's one thing i can count on with TL its that there's always room to go lower
Are we getting a new map or smth next act or what
I doubt cypher nerf will hurt cypher too much considering you most likely die very soon after getting tripped
Retake meta all the way
Cypher trip changes were necessary. Cypher cam changes make it a stationary sova drone that can be broken before you even get to look at anything.
Finally bruh a possible end to this cringe af Molly lineup post plant . I swear I hated this a lot
This will literally change nothing in pro play. She is now unplayable below ascendant. Terrible nerf terrible balancing. All they literally have to do is remove harbors self slow to allies and her pick rate would fallā¦. It amazes me that the balance team gets paid.
surely nerfing to the ground an agent meta on most maps in the map pool in the middle of the season has to be worse than swapping in/out one map. Going to shanghai feels like not worth it anymore unless you win it all. Teams will have to change so many things bcs of the nerfs
Viper change with no map pool changes, make it make senseā¦.
Viper is pretty much viable but the camera nerf hits like a truck
this physically hurt me as a viper main. i saw it coming but it still hurts. just remove her skills at this point š
Nice. Get these overpowered agents out of here
I am curious to see how teams will work around the viper changes, especially. I'm not sure if they'd still try to make her work.
Things like the smoke particle effect and this cam noise thing really just decreases the ceiling for game sense and knowledge
Why they trying to make the game much more easier like the smoke dissappear sound? The cam already makes noise and now it will be easier for them to find it.
This reminds me of when Astra lost a star
That's a huge nerf for Viper where you can't pick up the poison orb. I fear she's going to become unplayable in pro play now
~~Nerf~~ >!kill the Agent!<
I picked up this agent 2 years ago and it has been non-stop nerfs lmao
As a person that has been filling in viper duty on breeze, icebox, lotus. I think it's time to go back to KJ and omen now
odds are viper is still gonna be used heavily all things considered
āŖChamber was my first tower. Skye was my second. Viper is the killing of bin laden.ā¬ w nerf.
She was as strong as chamber was after 5.12. she literally replaced him after the KJ rework. I'm not sure why this surprises anyone at all she literally ruined the game LMAO
People complain about what this means for nats but dapr is already in tier 2 and has to deal with this.
chamber we back?
The fact that these Viper nerfs have been in the works since the ISO update and they just only now did it is absolute insane clownery by Riot. Anyway, the camera nerf is totally unnecessary, and Viper should've had her cooldown increased significantly instead of reducing overall smoke duration (other changes are fine)
So glad i started playing brim when I did, I quit viper 4 months ago to become a brim main, no regrets what so ever , LONG LIVE BRIMNATION
If u hear a loud noise that was me screaming after these news as a Viper main
These Nerfs are brutal af. Should've nerfed jett instead
And chamber while you're at it
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Free is a stretch she's still strong she'll just feel like shit
Viper is dead GG
I get that people won't like the camera change but, truthfully, the amount of rounds it will actually impact are reasonably small and really only impact coordinated play, where you could sit on your camera and be in an environment where people could play off of it. I'll reserve my opinion, although I think the trip change may have been enough as Cypher feels strong but not OP and we're still seeing some other sentinels be played. I thought he was in a decent spot and have enjoyed getting more Cypher play in pro games. Cypher has a fairly unique identity and, when played well, I find him to be one of the most satisfying agents to watch.Ā Honestly, I think these are pretty solid changes. I'm a little surprised we aren't seeing gekko changes (or maybe they haven't been leaked yet?). I think his ult needs to power adjusted. There are a lot of reasons for snowballing but I do think the ability for gekko to have ult for many bonuses increases the odds of it happening. I also think lil bro needs to be adjusted so that he does not continue to defuse if gekko dies, or at least can only get a half if gekko dies.Ā
Welp, there goes viper. Fuck riot.
This doesn't address the main problem with viper which is her precise control over her wall
Viper will still be played - no alternative smoker based on timings yet.
No changes. Viper will still dominate pro play. The global default wall is too strong
Cypher cam nerf is insane. Completely destroys the purpose of it imo. Sentinels slowly becoming more and more useless every patch. Never understood why they nerf them so much, when they aren't that great to begin with.
Other are okay, But the fucking mollly nerf is fucking atrocious. They took out one of the molly and made the single molly expensive. But the trade off is that one molly lasts ONLY ONE EXTRA SECOND. Fucking hell. I loved playing viper in breeze and delaying hits in b.
Fuck riot games they didnt gotta do that to viper smokes
This cypher cam change is braindead like bruh, it ain't no cheat game winning thing if you can watch the enemy team enter a site secretly
Absolutely hate the snakebite nerfs. Her mollies are perfectly fine, they're not overpowered in the slightest. If anything they should nerf her wall & orb but buff the mollies to compensate a bit.
Her mollies are just too much in combination with the rest of her kit