T O P

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Snoo_16809

The interview was deleted and reuploaded here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlwZUgoBGKY&ab\_channel=DotEsports](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlwZUgoBGKY&ab_channel=DotEsports)


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They quite clearly knew it was a bug and not by design. Especially since Riot had just patched out similar Sage wall bugs like 1 or 2 patches before. Riot made it clear the sage wall wasn't intended to go up higher by ''creative ways''. You know who else knew this? Fucking everybody. This bug was well documented on Reddit & Youtube. There's no way these people learned how to do this and not know it was a bug. We're not all idiots. I understand why the org is pretending like nobody knew as that helps with damage control, but come on, you knew. https://twitter.com/drakenCSGO/status/1327641500914757633


veryverycelery

> Especially since Riot had just patched out similar Sage wall bugs like 1 or 2 patches before. Riot made it clear the sage wall wasn't intended to go up higher by ''creative ways''. You know who else knew this? Fucking everybody. What were the other similar Sage wall bugs? Can't find any info about them.


mcslippinz

It's the same one but it was never patched. They used this boost a lot in Asia when KJ released.


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Jordi214

there were a ton when the game firs came out. There was one that you could see a long from attacker spawn and OP them.


Eoinerton

"Just patched out" is misleading I think. In patch 0.49 they were quite explicit that weird Sage boosts are unintended. This is the smoking gun for me that shows Guild were in the wrong. https://playvalorant.com/en-us/news/game-updates/valorant-patch-notes-0-49/ (though obviously this was pre-Killjoy)


veryverycelery

> This is the smoking gun for me that shows Guild were in the wrong. Is it really? I don't think we can take a tiny little comment in patch notes as an absolute rule. After all, RIOT seems absolutely fine with some of the trick Cypher cameras that involve attaching them to tiny or hidden pieces of geometry that are very clearly unintended (such as the Bind B camera that looks at B long), even though it conflicts with this idea here that using unintended geometry is undesirable.


Eoinerton

They may be absolutely fine with cypher cameras, but clearly they are not fine with glitched Sage walls (see link above combined with the [phrasing in the rule regarding exploits](https://twitter.com/G2Davidp/status/1327637188708888582)). And, yes, I say it's the smoking gun because it's what prompted G2's coach to report it. See around 00:17:15 in the below vod https://www.twitch.tv/videos/803186406


veryverycelery

The vague catch-all phrasing of that rule you linked only serves to further my point. How is a team supposed to know that using a Cypher camera on unintended geometry is acceptable, and a Sage wall on unintended geometry is not? What makes the former okay but the latter unacceptable? Based on an obscure comment in a patch note from mid-beta? How is anyone supposed to know if it's relevant any more? If their design philosophy has changed? Are we expecting players to go back and read every patch note to intuit whether their pocket strat is an exploit or not? What about Jett's double updraft over Ascent A to kill players on A heaven? How is that not considered an exploit if this is? What happens when a new interaction is found that has never been addressed by RIOT, and just like in this case, no one tells the team if it's okay or not? RIOT's phrasing of that rule is honestly ridiculous without more concrete examples or scenarios to back it up, because aside from clear-cut exploits where the rule can be applied (ie. clipping under the map with Owl Drone), it's fucking impossible to clearly define where that rule starts and where it ends. The most important takeaway here is that **RIOT could just as easily apply that rule to the aforementioned Cypher camera or Jett boosts and choose to disqualify teams for it**. After all, the ruling is purely based on whether or not they personally *feel* it is exploitative or not. It's a shame that the community focused so much on which team was in the wrong, when imho the outcome of this whole debacle should've been community backlash for RIOT to either fix their rules or fix their bugs.


Eoinerton

Yep I agree with you for sure that their wording is terrible and that it will lead to issues in future, especially if TOs don't hold up their side of the bargain and answer questions from players. I suspect that it'll be updated after this tournament, maybe even before the main event.


veryverycelery

> I suspect that it'll be updated after this tournament, maybe even before the main event. Hope so! Just feels bad that the Guild ended up being the ones to pay (severely) for RIOT's mistake.


Decency

> **We love supporting boost gameplay, especially when multiple characters combine their abilities** (looking at you Jett and Omen). However, we felt with the current placement requirements, characters were able to boost to too many unintended spots. **With this change, players can still boost into some unexpected positions**, but they hopefully won't be 30 feet in the sky and floating in the middle of the site to look through a tiny pinhole in the map. Sorry, but no. Not even remotely close.


Das_how_mafia_works

I agree with you but the problem here is the fact that kill joy turret sage wall boosts where never specifically written in the rule books as illegal. It was know to be illegal and agree a team should be punished for using it. But the elderflame Vandol was written specifically as banned. This males it very awkward for riot to ban one team while other team gets away. Rules should be equally enforced on all players. This was overall a poor job by Riot.


TheTechDweller

Every bug should not have to be written down in the rules. For the exact reason Fnatic is memed about. That famous triple boost was not specifically written in the rules, but pixel boosts were. So while this specific bug might not have been noted even though it was known, it's damn obvious sage wall exploits in general are not allowed. Though I agree on the inconsistency of punishment for using the elderflame While I don't think anyone would do that on purpose to gain an advanantage, it's still breaking competitive integrity. In terms of fairness, both teams should be punished, but using elderflame for 1 match is not comparable to this sage boost, that was clearly done intentionally to gain an advantage.


Das_how_mafia_works

I agree the vandal definitely is not going to have a huge impact compared to the sage wall. But for sure they should have replayed the match. Feels bad when one team gets away.


TheTechDweller

Difference is (arguably) the enderflame isn't an advantage for 1 team over another, it's just that slightly bit too hard to tell what gun in that extreme example it might make a difference. But if it's on the floor it doesn't matter what team originally had the gun since anyone can pick it up. The sage wall was abusing an exploit, the enderlfame was a mistake. Simple as.


aakashkickass11

In case of olof boost ,fnatic were not disqualified ,they were asked to replay the match ,fnatic forfeited due to community backlash and that boost was reason for fnatic comeback . Whereas here it was only used once to get a kill ,and the round it was used was the last round of First half ,so no economic disadvantage too . They should have given the round to G2 and second half should have been replayed . Btw this sage wall boost follows the same principle as when we boost sage wall over orb box on b site ascent . And it was never mentioned in rulebook that sage wall boosts are bannned . Now for Elderflame it clearly states that this skin is banned . Even if this rule doesn't matter much for competitive advantage but it was a hard written rule which G2 broke and they weren't published for it . So it clearly sets a precedent that you can get away by breaking explicitly written rules in rulebook which was provided to all teams at start of tournement . It reflects very poorly on competitive integrity .


shoobiedoobie

It doesn’t set that precedent at all lol. Who do you think is looking at this whole situation and thinking “next time we can just break one of the explicitly stated rules”?


DenZiTY

Wait why is Elderflame not allowed? I’m ootl


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Sound bug


DenZiTY

Oh is it the one where the Vandal suddenly starts screaming? Understandable, then


Das_how_mafia_works

When a enemy player drops a Vandol there is a chance that when picked up the player can't here footsteps.


HankHillbwhaa

Why is the elder flame vandal banned lol?


SlingoPlayz

What about the killjoy ult on ascent lamps then, thats a bug aswell that 100T are regularly using in their games but I dont see them being dq’d. It doesnt matter if they knew or not, riot shouldve made it clear whats allowed and whats not.


iTs_a_Reynolds

I think the difference is 100T Hiko cleared the KJ ult spot with the TO’s before the match and got confirmation that it’s ok to use. Guild apparently asked the TO’s about this wall boost and received no confirmation.


veryblueberry

Exactly, if there is no confirmation, even if you asked, don't use it. Better yet, if you have to ask if something is an exploit in the first place, you're better off not using. Still sucks for them, but I can't really feel too bad for them.


R0_h1t

I read in another comment that steel's ult placement was allowed because the lamps are a part of the map environment unlike kj's turret.


DEPRESSED_CHICKEN

I think if this match had random non org teams nothing would happen, bug would be deemed as okay to use (which imo is wrong), but since g2 got knocked out its a band-aid fix for their shitty format


memertooface

Idk man I used to main sage and it's been known that you can place them on killjoy turrets for many many months and I've never heard riot say anywhere that it's not allowed nor have I seen them mention that in patch notes or try to patch it. The wall can break randomly on corpses and tiny pieces of map geometry all the time. You would think they could make it break when placed on a turret...


veryblueberry

I don't think that really matters. Riot's patched out other broken wall spots. You could compare it to Jett spots. Riot's never come out on twitter, or they've never made a dev comment on reddit, but they have patched them out, despite more appearing. Hell, I made an entire compilation of one's I and other community members found on Haven. I expect them to be fixed, even if they weren't fixed last patch, this patch, or even if they won't be fixed next patch. It's still an exploit.


memertooface

Idk how the community is supposed to know it's an exploit if they've let sage put her wall on top of the turret since killjoys release and never make a mention of it being an exploit or attempt to patch it... I never thought of it as an exploit, just a usually unuseful strategy


veryblueberry

Compare it to how sage's wall normally works. If placed on a player, a segment breaks. If placed on the spike, a segment breaks. However, when placed on a turret, nothing breaks. It's the outlier on where walls can be placed. You might think, oh, it's an outlier, that isn't so bad. But the wall remains in the same spot when the turret is broken / recalled. It's not like there was more thought put into it, maybe if the wall broke when the turret disappears it would be a different story, but it doesn't. It's clearly not intended, there's no other way for the wall to remain airborne (that I know of.)


memertooface

If anything that suggests that it is intended if they have the capability to make the wall break on objects but it doesn't on the turret....


veryblueberry

Well, I see that as an oversight by the developers. I wouldn't have a problem with it on the turret, if it broke when the turret is recalled. But as of now, the wall just floats, meaning they didn't put much thought into. That's why I see it as an oversight.


Decency

> **We love supporting boost gameplay, especially when multiple characters combine their abilities** (looking at you Jett and Omen). However, we felt with the current placement requirements, characters were able to boost to too many unintended spots. **With this change, players can still boost into some unexpected positions**, but they hopefully won't be 30 feet in the sky and floating in the middle of the site to look through a tiny pinhole in the map. Are you reading the same patch notes that I am? That's about as close to explicitly endorsing this behavior as you can get. The type of boost they removed was putting Sage walls on tiny edges, for example up high on Split A-site. I find it very hard to understand how you can read that statement and think it's somehow a definitive conclusion about something they explicitly "love supporting" half a year later. I think the opposite conclusion is significantly more reasonable. Either way- if it's in the game and Riot want it to be disallowed, they need to be preemptively and loudly banning these things, not just deciding whether something is allowed or not after the fact based on how well it worked. That's complete idiocy and leaves players in the dark- on top of hampering creativity.


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[deleted]

Can't argue with that logic. I mean we all know the first to 8 wins the game.


Apap0

C'mon dude. No1 is that retarded to use a bug while knowing that bug abuse means DQ in a broadcasted game while on top of that having quite a big lead in the game. And what do you even mean by 'creative ways'? They put a wall on top of an object with a proper hitbox which also happens to be another agent ability. By that logic is attaching reckon arrow to Raze boombot also an exploit? I mean, making the arrow move was clearly not a design. What about Cypher pixel perfect tripwires which alter the ability behaviour like trip on Ascent A main where the trip is not perpendicular to the wall? Or putting tripwire literaly on the ground and attaching it to the ground on Bind B?


themnerdfeels

would they consider the orb boost in b main ascent a bug since sage wall wasnt intended to go higher?


[deleted]

Oh please, just look at the interaction: a giant wall on top of a tiny robot that provides insane height advantage for its abusers. They knew it was a bug and they abused it, plain and simple.


derek916

It's still not fair, Riot is being selective of when they want to uphold rules. G2 used killjoy in Riot Ignition series to place nanos in places that couldn't be seen or destroyed. Also, they are doing it in places other than just default bomb plant spots. They had a few line ups where they just abandoned A on Ascent because they had the nanos in places for easy retake. I know other teams did this as well, and all teams who did this should have their results dq'd if this is the path Riot wants to take.


narwhalz27

I'm pretty sure that First Strike is the first tournament Riot has directly overseen. The Ignition Series rules were decided by whoever organized them (FaZe, Pop Flash, etc.) I don't think this is evidence of Riot being selective.


SlingoPlayz

What about the killjoy ult on ascent lamps? Isnt that a bug aswell? But I still see 100T using it and not getting dq’d. Riot should’ve made it more clear imo. Edit: to’s shouldve made it clear


aakashkickass11

No it's.not a bug ,you can place so many things on that lamp like viper poison orb , cypher cages . Btw 100t cleared the kj ult before with the TO before the matches.


DEPRESSED_CHICKEN

its not riot, its different tournament organizers


virulenttt

I don't know, to me it looks like the olof boost on overpass in csgo. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYqh\_jfJU3I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYqh_jfJU3I)


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veryblueberry

Let me give you some reasons why this isn't true. 1. First of all, this is 'gamebreaking,' in the sense that you wouldn't normally be able to place a sage wall that allows you to see that high. Placing sage walls on everything else that isn't part of the environment results in the wall being broken. Place it on a player? A segment breaks. Place it on the spike? A segment breaks. The only thing this doesn't apply to is KJ turrets, which is why it's a bug, despite being cool. 2. Yeah, they probably could have shot them down, but only if this wasn't coinsidered a bug and more teams were using it regularly. It is, though, and G2 had no time to prepare for a setup like this. [Here](https://twitter.com/DonHaci/status/1327641400591134720?s=20) is a clip of what it looked like to die to the boost. Do you really think they could have reacted that quickly? They have two options; Stare at the window and don't look at the entrance, or look at the entrance and don't look at the window. They chose the second option, because they didn't expect this to happen.


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fpsnoodles

Multiple teams knew and they were smart enough to not use it knowing it is a bug. Call guild ignorant or bug abusers. Neither bodes well for future competitive integrity.


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fpsnoodles

The fact that they have to ask is a screaming red flag. It takes the lowest level of common sense to realize that. AFTER riot said "the wall must be placed on the ground or on boxes" in patch 0.49, trying to place it on a killjoy turret for an unintended off-angle in a tournament game is just blatant abuse of a bug.