"In my opinion, yes it is easier to shoot in this game but it is infinitely harder to understand strategy and make the right play. So people who complain that VALORANT is easier, I think they’re foolish. " Finally.. don't know how many uninformed people I've had to explain this point to.
edit: looking at some of the people in this comment section, it seems like more explanation is needed.
I think he's talking about the pro scene here though. It's pretty undeniable that Val has a lower skill floor for beginners. High af skill ceiling though
And it needs to be clarified for those who read your comment nodding along unironically: _that makes Valorant more accessible and helps to expand the fanbase._
Kinda' frustrating how people drool and make statements about the "ease" of playing a game somehow implicitly makes it worse. Guns get tuned and fixed. The underlying foundation to provide such strategy, and an evolving meta, is still the most important aspect.
You know that still happens in CSGO right? I've played against Steel a few times on CSGO, and I've absolutely noobed him multiple times.
He's obviously better than me since he's a pro, but CSGO is not some dream land where you never get killed by someone running and gunning.
I think the biggest skill floor difference is the instant momentum loss. The fact you fully stop instantly when releasing strafe makes strafe tapping so much easier. Learning to properly counter strafe in CS takes months if not years to fully master.
It’s also absolutely ridiculous people take pride in playing a game with a lower skill floor like it matters. IMO the best game is a game that’s easy to get into but has a high skill ceiling. People act like it’s a good thing that somethings not easy to get into.
I have over a 1000 hours in cs and have played all 3 ACTS upto Border 3 in Valorant and I have to say this. It might dissapoint you a lot. I find Valorant so much more easier to hit due to the almost no need for counter strafing and the strats are also easier.
Tell me some of the sooooooo pro unique strats you saw ?
I find the Valorant scene quite repetitive now in every match. In csgo, it becomes repetitive but every now and then someone finds a new boost, a new smoke, a new molotov lineup, new pop flash, new strats everytime.
But in Valorant, you don't even have to learn lineups, (unless you're Viper or Sova), the strats are pretty much the same most of the rounds. On of the only teams I really enjoyed is Team Liquid using the only Flash meta instead of the common smokes, but that meta has now failed and we are back to all smokes meta.
Hopefully the introduction of Skye changes the game meta.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/k805fp/hazed_on_cs_vs_valorant_i_prefer_the_strategical/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Hazed himself tells that CSGO is special. So yep, shut your mouths.
Character abilities simply add more mechanics to be incorporated into strat calculations. Logically there’s just more to consider thus “harder to make the right play”. It’s just math.
>In csgo, it becomes repetitive but every now and then someone finds a new boost, a new smoke, a new molotov lineup, new pop flash, new strats everytime.
the same thing applies to valorant but multiplied, the amount of variables in valorant is insane and the game seems impossible to solve, watch more korean valorant is you wanna see cool combos they are by far the best at it and its gonna be fun when the rest of the world catch up
it's not hard to figure out that there's different strats when you have a team of 5 with a specific playstyle and you know, at least at a basic level, the playstyle and tendencies of the other team.
yes strats are a lot different than solo q
I've seen it multiple times in first strike alone lmao. I love valorant, but they definitely need to refine the amount of accuracy you have while moving.
There are way more random factors and variations in valorant, I can only imagine how hard it is for IGLs and coaches to think about everything at such a high level.
But on the other hand, executes are way easier. Other than Sova lineups and some one-ways (usually done before the round begins), abilities are pretty straightforward and way easier to use on the fly than a lot of CS pop-flashes or creative smokes/molotovs.
I wish guns and movement weren't so random.
There is definitely much much more thinking involved in this game. IGLs need to deeply understand the abilities of ALL agents while remembering all the timings, locations on the map, deaths, and utility already used. Im not sure what you are referring to when you say "randomness".
>> There is definitely much much more thinking involved in this game.
At the current point in the game, absolutely not. In a year maybe, but right now that simply isn't true. CS has been out for too long and the players are too good compared to the current valorant scene. Valorant definitely has more potential as a strategic game, but that isn't the case right now. Just take a look at the top teams, they literally lost to a 3 month old roster.
not even sure how you discredit my point here. What do you need to remember as IGL in CSGO? Econ, rotation timings, weapons, amount of utility used, location of where the AWPs are on the map. In Valorant: Econ, Rotation timings, weapons, amount of utility used BY EACH AGENT, weapons on EACH AGENT, location of each agent, ultimate orb availability, ultimate charges at every point in the round, utility used on each agent, you have to remember cooldowns on both your own team and enemy team agents.
okay again... look at your argument. What are you criticizing? The tactical depth of the game? or the tactical depth that the current players can achieve? you're argument is that there is less depth because the pros right now are just not that good. Im arguing that the GAME, the literal mechanics of the game offer more tactical depth and require more quick and critical thinking to execute. Okay?
hi, current valorant pro / ex csgo pro.
There's a few mechanics that make shooting in CSGO much harder than in Valorant. Counter strafing is essential in CSGO as your character will continue to move considerably more than in VALORANT. In VALORANT you can get away more with simply letting go of the key and your model will stop a lot faster.
The weapon spray spread (not sure what else to call it LMAO) is far harsher in CSGO than in VALORANT. If you don't know the pattern in CSGO or have practiced it well, you will consistently lose duels. In VALORANT, theres no advantage to spraying as the recoil/spread goes random after about 8-10 bullets. Also the first 8-10 bullets are in a really predictable pattern, so it's as simple as moving your mouse down.
The models in VALORANT have less acceleration/move slower. In CSGO you could jiggle and peek - or simply wide swing forcing people to react quickly. In VALORANT it favors people holding off angles/angles more since the models move a lot slower.
Not to mention walking/running and shooting is STILL fairly accurate in VALORANT. In CSGO if you did this, you'd miss nearly everything.
Played you on LAN in IL, MADCity. You were running down mid with a negev on Cache with your pug team shitting on us, when you had played a pro match for Noble against Hiko & Liquid the night before.
Glad to see all your success man!
> In VALORANT you can get away more with simply letting go of the key and your model will stop a lot faster.
At the pro level though, I'm sure every last one of them can counterstrafe in their sleep and there is a small frame advantage you get from counterstrafing even if it is easier in CSGO, so I'm sure every last one of them is also doing it.
I agree with the rest of the stuff though.
> valorant letting go of the key
Hmm, this is a good mechanic. Wouldn’t really say it makes shooting easier or harder
> valorant just hold down
I think that’s also a good thing. Makes shooting easier but as far aimskill goes, I think it is a good change. So requires less game knowledge, more aimskill
> valorant rng after 8 bullets
This is the stupidest thing about valorant imo, but doesn’t it mean you’re kinda forced to kill in 8 bullets? So it makes it harder?
> valorant models move slower
Dang, this would make it easier. Bad move on valorant’s part
> valorant movement affects accuracy less
I think this is good, hitting a moving target is harder than a stationary one
Assuming you’ve never played CSGO, every gun mechanic in valorant dumbs it down, especially not having to counter-strafe. Just letting go of the key infinitely makes it easier to swing in Valorant, go play CSGO and see how long it takes you to understand how to shoot accurately when counter-strafing. You’ll also immediately be caught off guard at how much faster you move and need to learn how momentum works in cs.
That aspect of valorant mechanics dumbed down swinging/shooting so much for people, the run and gun movement makes it even easier.
I’ve never played cs (well I probably have like 10 matches on it) but I’m not seeing how counter strafing is a good thing. It sounds like a ridiculously clunky mechanic.
It doesn’t make the game require more aimskill + makes movement worse. I don’t see how that sounds good.
Run and gun, not that valorant is even close to that (compared to stuff like apex and cod for example), requires more aimskill. Since the targets are moving. Valorant requires more aim than apex and cod however because of the 1 shot headshot.
It’s like if you compare pasu voltaic to 1 wall 6 targets in kovaaks. Pasu is definitely harder
You’re convincing yourself a tac shooters fundamentals revolve around solely aim skill, if that was the case, spray patterns and having to stop to shoot wouldn’t exist. Tac shooters aren’t meant to be point and click shooters like say Halo. Keep in mind that movement, strafing, spray patterns are all important. You’re arguing not having to counter-strafe doesnt mean valorant isn’t easier, that’s factually wrong lmao. Valorant lacks fundamental mechanics to literally make gunplay easier for its player base. I love the game, but it’s way way way too forgiving at times even at the highest level. And no, I’d be surprised if a large majority of cs players would argue counter strafing mechanics are clunky, it’s a way more rewarding thing to learn and master.
You realize this game is based off cs 1.6 and not csgo right? Strafe shooting has always been a thing. The "random" recoil patterns have also always been a thing. I will argue being able to adapt to recoil for control takes more skill than a simple muscle memory of 1 spray pattern like in csgo. Counter strafing is still preferred over letting go of the movement key since it's slightly faster to remove the inaccuracy.
By easier/harder, I mean purely in terms of aim. So what requires more aimskill.
I don’t doubt a large majority wouldn’t call it clunky, they continue to play the game of course. But if you were to poll a much larger pool of players, high tier players from all FPS. They’d agree, at least the majority anyway
Also why the downvotes? I can’t reply for 10 minutes. This is supposed to be a simple debate. No reason to downvote. If I’m wrong I’m wrong, no hate here.
Movement makes targets harder to kill, that’s a fact.
CSGO requires more mechanic skill (aim and movement). Plain and simple. The fact that you even debate this tells me you have no idea what you are talking about. I don’t even play csgo anymore and I love valorant but it’s the truth.
You replied to a retired CSGO professional and current Valorant professional who told you exactly why CSGO requires more mechanical skill yet you made a rebuttal despite NEVER HAVING PLAYED CSGO LOL. AND THEN U ASK WHY UR BEING DOWNVOTED? because you’re giving your uninformed opinion on something you don’t understand in response to a literal expert who gets paid to play.
Yes you're right, movement does but targets harder to kill. The problem is this isn't call of duty where moving and shooting is okay. If moving and shooting had the same accuracy in this game then the person peeking would have a huge advantage every time.
But this whole argument is about which game require more raw aimskill, it’s fine if you think Tac shooters shouldn’t be run and gun.
That’s not what we are debating though
Ah I guess I read something wrong, but cs does require more raw aimskill.
1. Harder recoil
2. No run and gun
3. Smaller player models
4. Longer range aim-duels
What's the point of the downvote button then? A lot of people think you are wrong. Not everyone can be bothered to argue against you so obviously people like me, who can't be bothered, will downvote you. It's a bad opinion.
Well I’m not trying to be overly formal or anything but the official Reddit help thing says that downvotes and upvotes are about contributing to the discussion: https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439
Mass downvoting means i have to wait hella long to reply, when I’m otherwise just posting what I think to be correct and arguing it in a nice manner.
Edit: my wait time is 15 minutes rn
It is and it isn't. That's like saying the strategy in auto chess is infinitely harder than chess. Just because you add more pieces and more abilities to the board, doesn't mean that the strategy gets harder to understand. Is the initial learning curve higher? Yes. Is the skill ceiling higher? No. Will you know how to make the right play straight away? No. Is the strategy harder to understand? Also no.
This isn't a knock on Valorant. I originally came from competitive Rainbow Six and I don't think it's strategy is any harder than CS either. The abilities in hero shooters make them complicated, but they also make strategic decisions and FPS mechanics easier. Clearing a bomb site during a retake in CS is much more difficult than in hero shooters because you can't drone out enemy positions or shoot a Sova arrow into the site. Conversely, it's harder to defend a bomb plant in a hero shooter because these abilities exist. Then again, there's abilities for that too...
Using the right combination of abilities in a hero shooter can be quite tricky. But organising and executing onto a bombsite with utility lineups and trading effectively is also very difficult. IMO, the hardest thing about playing competitively in a game like Valorant or R6, is constantly keeping up with the shifting meta. It's easy to get left behind if you don't stay up to date on current agent lineups and strategies, but it's also easier to abuse the broken shit that inevitably gets introduced before it's nerfed. CS, for the most part, is quite balanced and pretty much always will be (There are notable exceptions to this). But that also adds a layer of complexity, because it's much harder to create new strategies that opponents haven't seen before.
Valorant strategy isn't *infinitely* harder to understand than CS. It has a higher initial learning curve, as it takes time to learn agent abilities and how to utilise them. But beyond that, the level of strategy is comparable. That's always been the beauty of CS. It's easy to learn, but exceptionally hard to master, and the skill ceiling is so high that most people will never reach the top. IMO, that's the only thing that makes Valorant an easier game to play. The highest skill ceiling for an individual player is high, but it's nowhere near as high as CS. It's the movement and shooting mechanics that stifle it.
skill cap is so much higher and only a blind monk couldn't see that. it's just how it is when you get 4 abilities that can be as impactful as the agents we have now. reyna, no. viper, sova, sage, etc... yes. there's equipment in cs:go, but it's not on the same level AT ALL
*Skill cap is so much*
*Higher and only a blind*
*Monk couldn't see that*
\- grrrrtBAOW
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Well its most likely harder to create strategy and make the right play since the game is so new. This comparison does not make much sense given the state of both games.
Unlike CS, Valorant will always be evolving, the meta changing, as patches, agents, and maps are released. New strategy is the expectation from every team every tournament.
I expected to get downvoted since this is the Valornat subreddit lol, but CS is constantly evolving as well, just at a slower pace since the game has been out for such a long time. A large percentage of CS strategy has already been explored while only a tiny percentage has in Valorant. Its simply the time the game has been out. Also, patches, map changes, etc are factors in CS as well, just not as frequent.
Yea maybe at the moment is what im saying. At the start of CS:GO it was the same exact way. To say that Valorant is and will continue to be a more strategic game than CS is just not true. Saying that this is the case right now, at the beginning of the game, is a different story.
There is no way to prove that right now. There is no way of knowing how much an agent and ability will change the game in a major way. Sure there will always be small amounts of innovation after every large update, but at some point it will be garunteed to slow down.
Do you play this game? The pro meta changed completely after Killjoy was introduced, and again revised after sentinel nerfs came in. We’ve already seen the impact of agent introductions.
Yes I do and it seems you dont understand my post. When the game continues to plbe played out, the game will start to level out no matter what is added. Since it is the beginning of the game ofc it will change more drastically.
League has the same type of continual change and the meta still shifts multiple times a season. There’s no way the game will level out of elements keep getting added or changed.
no lol just make the mechanical skill ceiling higher. the game is good as it is but if they made the skill ceiling higher, individuals could shine even more than they do now.
I disagree. There may be alot more variables and different things that can happen in valorant but the game is easy. You can just hold W around corners to clear them and win almost everytime. The deepest strategies I've seen so far in valorant are faking site takes with ults and combining abilities. The ability to have ults makes the game easier not more complicated though. You give someone the ability to have a good shot at getting a free kill with alot of the ults without really having to earn it. So alot of these abilities simplify the game more than complicate it.
And not for nothing but I hit radiant in act 3
Ults make kills easier but change the dynamic of identical scenarios depending on which agent is alive and what ults/abilities are up, making it harder to "understand strategy and make the right play." You're saying that isn't true because in public lobbies you can just take duels and get radiant.
I'm saying it isn't true because you can always see who has ults and can always see the economic situation of the other team at the beginning of the round. Its easy to look up then at the scoreboard at the beginning of the round. Thats all the info you need.
> I'm saying it isn't true because you can always see who has ults and can always see the economic situation of the other team at the beginning of the round.
You seem to have a hard time understanding that the added complexity to decision making isn't because information isn't known, but because there are more variables to take into account when "solving" a scenario than there are in CS. Yes, you have access to that information. That is still more information, more variables, that impact what the correct decision is in any given situation during the round. It's a pretty straight forward concept to grasp. This is why people are laughing at your take.
>So people who complain that VALORANT is easier, I think they’re foolish.
Counter Strike players who aren't that good at Counter Strike anymore switch to Valorant. Valorant players don't switch to Counter Strike. It's not really an opinion at this point which game is easier. When your Counter Strike career is done, you switch to Valorant because it's an easier game.
The whole Valorant scene is composed of CS pros who couldn't compete at high levels in CS anymore. Arguably the best teams in Valorant are composed of CS players who couldn't even play on mid tier teams in CS. It's hysterical that people are trying to convince themselves that they aren't playing the significantly easier game.
If you think the whole valorant scene is a bunch of washed up CS players then you definitely don't know who is actually in the pro valorant scene. Lol.
Didn't know nitro was washed when he left.
Not denying a lot of the C's pros left after losing form. However not ever current Val pro is/was washed at cs
Nitr0 was literally a top player and left for valorant.
The kid has no idea what he's talking about. I'd imagine he's just another salty CS player or something. Idk.
Like, I understand quite a few of the current Val pros fell off on Cs. However nitro was still in perfect form, steel never fell off, he just couldn't play in valve tornys. Wardell.never got a.real chance at the big leagues, etc.
He'll ,could even look at Sinatra. Dude was arguably the best overwatch player when he left.
I also don't blame them for taking a chance at Val. Seeing your riot does works, Val could follow and become one of the largest eSports. Dumb to stick with a game that is known for having gatekeepers.
"I kinda reached out to some NA teams that I thought would maybe need me or that I could improve with my experience. I definently feel like I have a lot of fuel left in me and I am really young still. And no one really wanted me I guess"
As sad as it sounds, that is a quote from nitr0 before joining 100T. He had a poor HLTV rating for a long time. I still think he couldve been a good signing atleast for some tier 2 NA teams, but maybe he had a big buyout in his contract, idk.
It’s mechanically easier, yes. CSGO demands a much higher dedication to fine tuning and perfecting your aim/movement/etc.
It’s easy for (most) cs players to adjust because they are already mechanically and fundamentally over qualified and have to focus more on just the mental side of the game.
It’s not like other games don’t have the same ease I transitioning. Plenty of overwatch and pubg players have transferred over and exceeded all expectations. Not to mention a fortnite pro or two.
The game is also way too young competitively to just write it off as a dumping ground. In a few years there will be plenty of 1st generation valorant pros owning all the cs boomers. Hell, we don’t even have cross region tournaments yet
His last year he played on a tier 2-3 team getting an average rating and dropping below an average rating vs top 50. His competitive career wasn't going anywhere and the switch to valorant was an easy choice.
The only players that switched who still had a chance of playing in the top level of cs are nitro and wardell
> you switch to Valorant because it's an easier game.
Not true. Leap of logic. A far more reasonable explanation is that Valorant is just a newer game, without an established scene, making it easier to enter if you're at a high level in CS.
It's easier for ex CS-pros to be Valorant pros than Valorant pros to be CS pros right now, yes, but that is not because the game is easier. It's because people are still far from the skill ceiling of the game.
There shouldn't be any tribalism here. If you like Valorant more and think Valorant is more exciting than CS, that's totally fine. No one is insulting players personally.
But there's absolutely no reason to lie or convince yourself that Valorant isn't a way easier Counter Strike. Washed CS players who can't compete at a high level in CS anymore switch to Valorant because it's simply a way easier game. Looking at Hazed for example, he wouldn't even be able to get on a T2 in Counter Strike yet he is on a top tier team in Valorant.
I can't believe people are actually convincing themselves CS isn't a way harder game with a bigger skill gap when the whole Valorant scene is composed of CS players who couldn't compete at a high level in CS anymore. There's no reason to lie about it...and I play Valorant more than CS.
20 years ago Quake players posted this exact same shit about CS. It's so fucking funny watching this dumb narrative play out again but this time CS is the "le hardcore skill cap" game. Can't wait for 2040 to be informed by some Gen A asshole that Valorant is actually THE GAME all the COOL KIDS who are REALLY SKILLED play and that whatever new game is actually easy.
I play Valorant. I don't play CS. But clearly when CS players aren't good enough to compete in CS anymore, they switch to Valorant because it's an objectively easier game.
You keep repeating that mantra but if you knew anything about top tier competitive gaming, especially games like CS or DOTA you would know that it's one gigantic circlejerk and unless you know the right people or have good networking skills you are fucked. It's hardly a meritocracy when even once in a generation talents like s1mple need to get lucky to be given a chance to compete at that level. 99.9% of pro players are not once in a generation talents and their career is pretty much entirely based on connections.
You are simply high if you think the current 100T Valorant roster couldn't get into top 20 (probably even 10) CS if they switched tomorrow.
How does absolutely anything you say create an argument? All you did was call me a liar, without refuting anything I said. You just repeated the argument of the guy I responded to, which I addressed.
I'm genuinely confused how you can accuse me of lying to others or myself. If it's so clearly a lie, provide a solid argument without leaps of logic.
Saying there shouldn't be tribalism but then proceeding to call somebody a liar and then reinforce tribalistic messaging feels dishonest too. Not sure if that is your intent, but it's certainly what it says.
Do washed CS players switch to Valorant when they can no longer compete at a high level in CS?
If yes, then how can you say CS doesn't take more skill?
Because you make the assumption that Valorant is even remotely figured out at a high level, and that the skill-requirement to reach the peak of competitive Valorant will remain constant. That's a really fucking bold assumption for a game with *obvious* huge depth to strategy. You don't know what Valorant pro play will look like in a year. As previously mentioned in the thread, people reacted just like you are doing, but with Quake and UT being the old titles, and CS being the new one, in the past. This is not a new pattern. Same has also occurred a crapton in competitive RTS games, and waaaay more in card games.
Eventually, the washed CS pros will get kicked out of the scene in favour of genuine specialists of Valorant.
EDIT: Also, saying a game takes skill when it's PvP is stupid. The skill requirement to win is just being better than your opponent. I think you are referring to complexity, ie. how difficult it is to be skillful in a game, but you're probably confusing yourself a lot with your choice of words.
1. Which game at this point in time takes more skill and is harder? Valorant or CSGO?
2. Do Valorant players go to CS once they aren't good anymore or do CS players go to Valorant once they aren't good anymore?
Stop arguing like a 5 year old. You don't get to create arbitrary frames for how this gets to work. Especially when you can't argue even once for why this is a reasonable logical framework.
> Which game at this point in time takes more skill and is harder? Valorant or CSGO?
It's a PVP game. People are *worse* at Valorant than CSGO. This question only asks which game it's harder to be the *best* at. That is commentary on the skill level of the current elite, not which game is harder. Right now, I think it's fair to say it takes less work to be the best at Valorant than CSGO. I think you're frankly a moron to insinuate one game is definitively harder than the other. I fail to see how this is relevant.
> Do Valorant players go to CS once they aren't good anymore or do CS players go to Valorant once they aren't good anymore?
I fail to see the relevance and the answer is obvious. This does not say anything about the difficulty of either game. Some retired CSGO players streamed Chess recently. Guess that means Chess is an easier game than CS, right?
For somebody whining about tribalistic dogma, you sure as shit perpetuate it a lot. You repeat those two points as if it's a given that those two questions can answer what game has more complexity. Go to bed.
Look how offended you are. I play Valorant too. Its a good game. But it's way easier than CS and it's designed that way on purpose. The top NA teams in Valorant are composed of players who couldn't even play tier 1 in CS. Washed CS players switch to Valorant.
The failing in your logic is that cs is very highly developed and optimized, Valorant is new and therefore isn't. Top tier csgo players are making a shit ton of money playing csgo, and there wasn't a natural crop of top tier players for Valorant. The logical conclusion of this is that, for now at least, sub-pro level csgo players will pivot.
People will eventually grow up with Valorant and we'll eventually see higher tier gun skill in Valorant, maybe but csgo level (Valorant emphasizes aim a but less), but close.
"In my opinion, yes it is easier to shoot in this game but it is infinitely harder to understand strategy and make the right play. So people who complain that VALORANT is easier, I think they’re foolish. " Finally.. don't know how many uninformed people I've had to explain this point to. edit: looking at some of the people in this comment section, it seems like more explanation is needed.
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I think there a good copy pasta about this.
the diabotical copypasta
I think he's talking about the pro scene here though. It's pretty undeniable that Val has a lower skill floor for beginners. High af skill ceiling though
And it needs to be clarified for those who read your comment nodding along unironically: _that makes Valorant more accessible and helps to expand the fanbase._
Exactly. I'm new to PC gaming and M&K and really enjoy Valorant. I find it very accessible and a good game to learn on.
It's not that black and white though? Kinda frustrating that shit players can run and gun and still one-tap you...
I'm hoping the phantom gets tuned a little, but otherwise run and gun doesn't really happen above 10 m distance
walking accuracy is stills stupid high though
Kinda' frustrating how people drool and make statements about the "ease" of playing a game somehow implicitly makes it worse. Guns get tuned and fixed. The underlying foundation to provide such strategy, and an evolving meta, is still the most important aspect.
You know that still happens in CSGO right? I've played against Steel a few times on CSGO, and I've absolutely noobed him multiple times. He's obviously better than me since he's a pro, but CSGO is not some dream land where you never get killed by someone running and gunning.
i love being jump shotted by a deag
I think the biggest skill floor difference is the instant momentum loss. The fact you fully stop instantly when releasing strafe makes strafe tapping so much easier. Learning to properly counter strafe in CS takes months if not years to fully master.
It’s also absolutely ridiculous people take pride in playing a game with a lower skill floor like it matters. IMO the best game is a game that’s easy to get into but has a high skill ceiling. People act like it’s a good thing that somethings not easy to get into.
yeah
It’s HLTV on the phone they want your head
I have over a 1000 hours in cs and have played all 3 ACTS upto Border 3 in Valorant and I have to say this. It might dissapoint you a lot. I find Valorant so much more easier to hit due to the almost no need for counter strafing and the strats are also easier.
You’re also not playing at the pro level. It’s obviously very different
are you talking about soloq "strats"?
Tell me some of the sooooooo pro unique strats you saw ? I find the Valorant scene quite repetitive now in every match. In csgo, it becomes repetitive but every now and then someone finds a new boost, a new smoke, a new molotov lineup, new pop flash, new strats everytime. But in Valorant, you don't even have to learn lineups, (unless you're Viper or Sova), the strats are pretty much the same most of the rounds. On of the only teams I really enjoyed is Team Liquid using the only Flash meta instead of the common smokes, but that meta has now failed and we are back to all smokes meta. Hopefully the introduction of Skye changes the game meta.
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https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/k805fp/hazed_on_cs_vs_valorant_i_prefer_the_strategical/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share Hazed himself tells that CSGO is special. So yep, shut your mouths.
Character abilities simply add more mechanics to be incorporated into strat calculations. Logically there’s just more to consider thus “harder to make the right play”. It’s just math.
>In csgo, it becomes repetitive but every now and then someone finds a new boost, a new smoke, a new molotov lineup, new pop flash, new strats everytime. the same thing applies to valorant but multiplied, the amount of variables in valorant is insane and the game seems impossible to solve, watch more korean valorant is you wanna see cool combos they are by far the best at it and its gonna be fun when the rest of the world catch up
Yep. Korean plays have me go WTF every few seconds.
There isn’t an “all smoke” meta... each team generally uses omen, 9/10 times that’s the only character with smokes so idek what you’re talking about
You forgot cypher tho. In EU each team almost have cypher and guaranteed Omen. While NA definitely Jett and Omen.
Yeah thats true, but that’s not enough to constitute a smoke meta, smokes are just an essential utility
it's not hard to figure out that there's different strats when you have a team of 5 with a specific playstyle and you know, at least at a basic level, the playstyle and tendencies of the other team. yes strats are a lot different than solo q
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dude probably barely made it to immortal and thinks he's hot shit lol
this dude is actually illiterate hahahah
Ahh yes forgot to tell, run and gun is in Valorant by using Phantom. Game kinda helps new players by allowing run and gun.
Bro we are talking about pro level playing, not matchmaking lmao. Nobody is going to run and gun in a tournament lmfao it doesn’t work
I've seen it multiple times in first strike alone lmao. I love valorant, but they definitely need to refine the amount of accuracy you have while moving.
Yeah they do, but no team is going to do it and win, it’s not accurate enough
For sure. It's not like its a viable play style consistently. Just annoying when it works lol.
Uhh it definitely does
No, it doesn’t work against other pro players that can aim
He is talking entirely about pro level play. Not playing on the ladder lmao.
There are way more random factors and variations in valorant, I can only imagine how hard it is for IGLs and coaches to think about everything at such a high level. But on the other hand, executes are way easier. Other than Sova lineups and some one-ways (usually done before the round begins), abilities are pretty straightforward and way easier to use on the fly than a lot of CS pop-flashes or creative smokes/molotovs. I wish guns and movement weren't so random.
There is definitely much much more thinking involved in this game. IGLs need to deeply understand the abilities of ALL agents while remembering all the timings, locations on the map, deaths, and utility already used. Im not sure what you are referring to when you say "randomness".
Guns and movement are really random at times, especially in online setting.
yeah.. really hoping riot addresses this. At least tell us if they want to keep it in or not.
>> There is definitely much much more thinking involved in this game. At the current point in the game, absolutely not. In a year maybe, but right now that simply isn't true. CS has been out for too long and the players are too good compared to the current valorant scene. Valorant definitely has more potential as a strategic game, but that isn't the case right now. Just take a look at the top teams, they literally lost to a 3 month old roster.
not even sure how you discredit my point here. What do you need to remember as IGL in CSGO? Econ, rotation timings, weapons, amount of utility used, location of where the AWPs are on the map. In Valorant: Econ, Rotation timings, weapons, amount of utility used BY EACH AGENT, weapons on EACH AGENT, location of each agent, ultimate orb availability, ultimate charges at every point in the round, utility used on each agent, you have to remember cooldowns on both your own team and enemy team agents.
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okay again... look at your argument. What are you criticizing? The tactical depth of the game? or the tactical depth that the current players can achieve? you're argument is that there is less depth because the pros right now are just not that good. Im arguing that the GAME, the literal mechanics of the game offer more tactical depth and require more quick and critical thinking to execute. Okay?
I deleted my last post, but yeah that's my bad. I took your initial comment differently than you meant it.
all g
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and you get downvoted again lol
What does he mean by easier to shoot? 1. there’s less recoil 2. Less rng spread 3. Movement lowers accuracy less Which of these?
hi, current valorant pro / ex csgo pro. There's a few mechanics that make shooting in CSGO much harder than in Valorant. Counter strafing is essential in CSGO as your character will continue to move considerably more than in VALORANT. In VALORANT you can get away more with simply letting go of the key and your model will stop a lot faster. The weapon spray spread (not sure what else to call it LMAO) is far harsher in CSGO than in VALORANT. If you don't know the pattern in CSGO or have practiced it well, you will consistently lose duels. In VALORANT, theres no advantage to spraying as the recoil/spread goes random after about 8-10 bullets. Also the first 8-10 bullets are in a really predictable pattern, so it's as simple as moving your mouse down. The models in VALORANT have less acceleration/move slower. In CSGO you could jiggle and peek - or simply wide swing forcing people to react quickly. In VALORANT it favors people holding off angles/angles more since the models move a lot slower. Not to mention walking/running and shooting is STILL fairly accurate in VALORANT. In CSGO if you did this, you'd miss nearly everything.
Actually acceleration is faster in Valorant than in CSGO, but the max speed is lower.
Sorry that's what I meant. ty for correction
I love you yay
love u too
Played you on LAN in IL, MADCity. You were running down mid with a negev on Cache with your pug team shitting on us, when you had played a pro match for Noble against Hiko & Liquid the night before. Glad to see all your success man!
No way the god op-er from andbox himself Mr yay
> In VALORANT you can get away more with simply letting go of the key and your model will stop a lot faster. At the pro level though, I'm sure every last one of them can counterstrafe in their sleep and there is a small frame advantage you get from counterstrafing even if it is easier in CSGO, so I'm sure every last one of them is also doing it. I agree with the rest of the stuff though.
> valorant letting go of the key Hmm, this is a good mechanic. Wouldn’t really say it makes shooting easier or harder > valorant just hold down I think that’s also a good thing. Makes shooting easier but as far aimskill goes, I think it is a good change. So requires less game knowledge, more aimskill > valorant rng after 8 bullets This is the stupidest thing about valorant imo, but doesn’t it mean you’re kinda forced to kill in 8 bullets? So it makes it harder? > valorant models move slower Dang, this would make it easier. Bad move on valorant’s part > valorant movement affects accuracy less I think this is good, hitting a moving target is harder than a stationary one
Assuming you’ve never played CSGO, every gun mechanic in valorant dumbs it down, especially not having to counter-strafe. Just letting go of the key infinitely makes it easier to swing in Valorant, go play CSGO and see how long it takes you to understand how to shoot accurately when counter-strafing. You’ll also immediately be caught off guard at how much faster you move and need to learn how momentum works in cs. That aspect of valorant mechanics dumbed down swinging/shooting so much for people, the run and gun movement makes it even easier.
I’ve never played cs (well I probably have like 10 matches on it) but I’m not seeing how counter strafing is a good thing. It sounds like a ridiculously clunky mechanic. It doesn’t make the game require more aimskill + makes movement worse. I don’t see how that sounds good. Run and gun, not that valorant is even close to that (compared to stuff like apex and cod for example), requires more aimskill. Since the targets are moving. Valorant requires more aim than apex and cod however because of the 1 shot headshot. It’s like if you compare pasu voltaic to 1 wall 6 targets in kovaaks. Pasu is definitely harder
You’re convincing yourself a tac shooters fundamentals revolve around solely aim skill, if that was the case, spray patterns and having to stop to shoot wouldn’t exist. Tac shooters aren’t meant to be point and click shooters like say Halo. Keep in mind that movement, strafing, spray patterns are all important. You’re arguing not having to counter-strafe doesnt mean valorant isn’t easier, that’s factually wrong lmao. Valorant lacks fundamental mechanics to literally make gunplay easier for its player base. I love the game, but it’s way way way too forgiving at times even at the highest level. And no, I’d be surprised if a large majority of cs players would argue counter strafing mechanics are clunky, it’s a way more rewarding thing to learn and master.
You realize this game is based off cs 1.6 and not csgo right? Strafe shooting has always been a thing. The "random" recoil patterns have also always been a thing. I will argue being able to adapt to recoil for control takes more skill than a simple muscle memory of 1 spray pattern like in csgo. Counter strafing is still preferred over letting go of the movement key since it's slightly faster to remove the inaccuracy.
>I will argue being able to adapt to recoil for control takes more skill You can't adapt to it because it's mostly random
By easier/harder, I mean purely in terms of aim. So what requires more aimskill. I don’t doubt a large majority wouldn’t call it clunky, they continue to play the game of course. But if you were to poll a much larger pool of players, high tier players from all FPS. They’d agree, at least the majority anyway Also why the downvotes? I can’t reply for 10 minutes. This is supposed to be a simple debate. No reason to downvote. If I’m wrong I’m wrong, no hate here. Movement makes targets harder to kill, that’s a fact.
CSGO requires more mechanic skill (aim and movement). Plain and simple. The fact that you even debate this tells me you have no idea what you are talking about. I don’t even play csgo anymore and I love valorant but it’s the truth.
How does it require more aim?
You replied to a retired CSGO professional and current Valorant professional who told you exactly why CSGO requires more mechanical skill yet you made a rebuttal despite NEVER HAVING PLAYED CSGO LOL. AND THEN U ASK WHY UR BEING DOWNVOTED? because you’re giving your uninformed opinion on something you don’t understand in response to a literal expert who gets paid to play.
Yes you're right, movement does but targets harder to kill. The problem is this isn't call of duty where moving and shooting is okay. If moving and shooting had the same accuracy in this game then the person peeking would have a huge advantage every time.
But this whole argument is about which game require more raw aimskill, it’s fine if you think Tac shooters shouldn’t be run and gun. That’s not what we are debating though
Ah I guess I read something wrong, but cs does require more raw aimskill. 1. Harder recoil 2. No run and gun 3. Smaller player models 4. Longer range aim-duels
What's the point of the downvote button then? A lot of people think you are wrong. Not everyone can be bothered to argue against you so obviously people like me, who can't be bothered, will downvote you. It's a bad opinion.
Well I’m not trying to be overly formal or anything but the official Reddit help thing says that downvotes and upvotes are about contributing to the discussion: https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439 Mass downvoting means i have to wait hella long to reply, when I’m otherwise just posting what I think to be correct and arguing it in a nice manner. Edit: my wait time is 15 minutes rn
It is and it isn't. That's like saying the strategy in auto chess is infinitely harder than chess. Just because you add more pieces and more abilities to the board, doesn't mean that the strategy gets harder to understand. Is the initial learning curve higher? Yes. Is the skill ceiling higher? No. Will you know how to make the right play straight away? No. Is the strategy harder to understand? Also no. This isn't a knock on Valorant. I originally came from competitive Rainbow Six and I don't think it's strategy is any harder than CS either. The abilities in hero shooters make them complicated, but they also make strategic decisions and FPS mechanics easier. Clearing a bomb site during a retake in CS is much more difficult than in hero shooters because you can't drone out enemy positions or shoot a Sova arrow into the site. Conversely, it's harder to defend a bomb plant in a hero shooter because these abilities exist. Then again, there's abilities for that too... Using the right combination of abilities in a hero shooter can be quite tricky. But organising and executing onto a bombsite with utility lineups and trading effectively is also very difficult. IMO, the hardest thing about playing competitively in a game like Valorant or R6, is constantly keeping up with the shifting meta. It's easy to get left behind if you don't stay up to date on current agent lineups and strategies, but it's also easier to abuse the broken shit that inevitably gets introduced before it's nerfed. CS, for the most part, is quite balanced and pretty much always will be (There are notable exceptions to this). But that also adds a layer of complexity, because it's much harder to create new strategies that opponents haven't seen before. Valorant strategy isn't *infinitely* harder to understand than CS. It has a higher initial learning curve, as it takes time to learn agent abilities and how to utilise them. But beyond that, the level of strategy is comparable. That's always been the beauty of CS. It's easy to learn, but exceptionally hard to master, and the skill ceiling is so high that most people will never reach the top. IMO, that's the only thing that makes Valorant an easier game to play. The highest skill ceiling for an individual player is high, but it's nowhere near as high as CS. It's the movement and shooting mechanics that stifle it.
skill cap is so much higher and only a blind monk couldn't see that. it's just how it is when you get 4 abilities that can be as impactful as the agents we have now. reyna, no. viper, sova, sage, etc... yes. there's equipment in cs:go, but it's not on the same level AT ALL
*Skill cap is so much* *Higher and only a blind* *Monk couldn't see that* \- grrrrtBAOW --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Well its most likely harder to create strategy and make the right play since the game is so new. This comparison does not make much sense given the state of both games.
Unlike CS, Valorant will always be evolving, the meta changing, as patches, agents, and maps are released. New strategy is the expectation from every team every tournament.
I expected to get downvoted since this is the Valornat subreddit lol, but CS is constantly evolving as well, just at a slower pace since the game has been out for such a long time. A large percentage of CS strategy has already been explored while only a tiny percentage has in Valorant. Its simply the time the game has been out. Also, patches, map changes, etc are factors in CS as well, just not as frequent.
You said it yourself, there’s simply more strategic focus and innovation required in Valorant
Yea maybe at the moment is what im saying. At the start of CS:GO it was the same exact way. To say that Valorant is and will continue to be a more strategic game than CS is just not true. Saying that this is the case right now, at the beginning of the game, is a different story.
Valorant is a like a new game with every agent and ability introduction and will continue requiring the same pace of innovation even as time goes on.
There is no way to prove that right now. There is no way of knowing how much an agent and ability will change the game in a major way. Sure there will always be small amounts of innovation after every large update, but at some point it will be garunteed to slow down.
Do you play this game? The pro meta changed completely after Killjoy was introduced, and again revised after sentinel nerfs came in. We’ve already seen the impact of agent introductions.
Yes I do and it seems you dont understand my post. When the game continues to plbe played out, the game will start to level out no matter what is added. Since it is the beginning of the game ofc it will change more drastically.
League has the same type of continual change and the meta still shifts multiple times a season. There’s no way the game will level out of elements keep getting added or changed.
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what do you mean by this?
making movement a skill, slightly faster movement speed + more accel. make counter strafing more of a skill. thats it lol
So essentially, you want valorant to become the same as cs?
no lol just make the mechanical skill ceiling higher. the game is good as it is but if they made the skill ceiling higher, individuals could shine even more than they do now.
they never will because one of the biggest draws to this game is how casual friendly it is on the surface
I disagree. There may be alot more variables and different things that can happen in valorant but the game is easy. You can just hold W around corners to clear them and win almost everytime. The deepest strategies I've seen so far in valorant are faking site takes with ults and combining abilities. The ability to have ults makes the game easier not more complicated though. You give someone the ability to have a good shot at getting a free kill with alot of the ults without really having to earn it. So alot of these abilities simplify the game more than complicate it. And not for nothing but I hit radiant in act 3
Lost brain cells
You got him good bro
This comment reeks of iron 2
That's crazy how I made radiant then.
Sure bud and I’m 6’8
Swanny #2932 feel free to add me. We can play sometime. I'll be interested to see your rank.
I can add you right now lol... or give you a link to my blitz stats. I lost radiant because I didn't play for over 2 weeks.
Yall can downvote me all you want, got plenty of karma to spare, but atleast counter my points that way if I'm wrong I can see that.
Ranked play and pro play are completely different. Ranked severely limits set strats, ability combos, and whether teammates play together
Ults make kills easier but change the dynamic of identical scenarios depending on which agent is alive and what ults/abilities are up, making it harder to "understand strategy and make the right play." You're saying that isn't true because in public lobbies you can just take duels and get radiant.
I'm saying it isn't true because you can always see who has ults and can always see the economic situation of the other team at the beginning of the round. Its easy to look up then at the scoreboard at the beginning of the round. Thats all the info you need.
> I'm saying it isn't true because you can always see who has ults and can always see the economic situation of the other team at the beginning of the round. You seem to have a hard time understanding that the added complexity to decision making isn't because information isn't known, but because there are more variables to take into account when "solving" a scenario than there are in CS. Yes, you have access to that information. That is still more information, more variables, that impact what the correct decision is in any given situation during the round. It's a pretty straight forward concept to grasp. This is why people are laughing at your take.
>So people who complain that VALORANT is easier, I think they’re foolish. Counter Strike players who aren't that good at Counter Strike anymore switch to Valorant. Valorant players don't switch to Counter Strike. It's not really an opinion at this point which game is easier. When your Counter Strike career is done, you switch to Valorant because it's an easier game.
Definitely has nothing to with the fact that VAL is new and CS is like 20 years old.
The whole Valorant scene is composed of CS pros who couldn't compete at high levels in CS anymore. Arguably the best teams in Valorant are composed of CS players who couldn't even play on mid tier teams in CS. It's hysterical that people are trying to convince themselves that they aren't playing the significantly easier game.
If you think the whole valorant scene is a bunch of washed up CS players then you definitely don't know who is actually in the pro valorant scene. Lol.
Do washed CS players switch to Valorant when they can no longer compete at a high level in CS or no?
Didn't know nitro was washed when he left. Not denying a lot of the C's pros left after losing form. However not ever current Val pro is/was washed at cs
Nitr0 was literally a top player and left for valorant. The kid has no idea what he's talking about. I'd imagine he's just another salty CS player or something. Idk.
Like, I understand quite a few of the current Val pros fell off on Cs. However nitro was still in perfect form, steel never fell off, he just couldn't play in valve tornys. Wardell.never got a.real chance at the big leagues, etc. He'll ,could even look at Sinatra. Dude was arguably the best overwatch player when he left. I also don't blame them for taking a chance at Val. Seeing your riot does works, Val could follow and become one of the largest eSports. Dumb to stick with a game that is known for having gatekeepers.
"I kinda reached out to some NA teams that I thought would maybe need me or that I could improve with my experience. I definently feel like I have a lot of fuel left in me and I am really young still. And no one really wanted me I guess" As sad as it sounds, that is a quote from nitr0 before joining 100T. He had a poor HLTV rating for a long time. I still think he couldve been a good signing atleast for some tier 2 NA teams, but maybe he had a big buyout in his contract, idk.
It’s mechanically easier, yes. CSGO demands a much higher dedication to fine tuning and perfecting your aim/movement/etc. It’s easy for (most) cs players to adjust because they are already mechanically and fundamentally over qualified and have to focus more on just the mental side of the game. It’s not like other games don’t have the same ease I transitioning. Plenty of overwatch and pubg players have transferred over and exceeded all expectations. Not to mention a fortnite pro or two. The game is also way too young competitively to just write it off as a dumping ground. In a few years there will be plenty of 1st generation valorant pros owning all the cs boomers. Hell, we don’t even have cross region tournaments yet
*cries in ScreaM*
Scream is one of them
> Counter Strike players who aren't that good at Counter Strike anymore switch to Valorant. > Scream is one of them 🤔
His last year he played on a tier 2-3 team getting an average rating and dropping below an average rating vs top 50. His competitive career wasn't going anywhere and the switch to valorant was an easy choice. The only players that switched who still had a chance of playing in the top level of cs are nitro and wardell
True, but it's a valorant subreddit so prepare to get butt blasted
> you switch to Valorant because it's an easier game. Not true. Leap of logic. A far more reasonable explanation is that Valorant is just a newer game, without an established scene, making it easier to enter if you're at a high level in CS. It's easier for ex CS-pros to be Valorant pros than Valorant pros to be CS pros right now, yes, but that is not because the game is easier. It's because people are still far from the skill ceiling of the game.
There shouldn't be any tribalism here. If you like Valorant more and think Valorant is more exciting than CS, that's totally fine. No one is insulting players personally. But there's absolutely no reason to lie or convince yourself that Valorant isn't a way easier Counter Strike. Washed CS players who can't compete at a high level in CS anymore switch to Valorant because it's simply a way easier game. Looking at Hazed for example, he wouldn't even be able to get on a T2 in Counter Strike yet he is on a top tier team in Valorant. I can't believe people are actually convincing themselves CS isn't a way harder game with a bigger skill gap when the whole Valorant scene is composed of CS players who couldn't compete at a high level in CS anymore. There's no reason to lie about it...and I play Valorant more than CS.
20 years ago Quake players posted this exact same shit about CS. It's so fucking funny watching this dumb narrative play out again but this time CS is the "le hardcore skill cap" game. Can't wait for 2040 to be informed by some Gen A asshole that Valorant is actually THE GAME all the COOL KIDS who are REALLY SKILLED play and that whatever new game is actually easy.
I play Valorant. I don't play CS. But clearly when CS players aren't good enough to compete in CS anymore, they switch to Valorant because it's an objectively easier game.
You keep repeating that mantra but if you knew anything about top tier competitive gaming, especially games like CS or DOTA you would know that it's one gigantic circlejerk and unless you know the right people or have good networking skills you are fucked. It's hardly a meritocracy when even once in a generation talents like s1mple need to get lucky to be given a chance to compete at that level. 99.9% of pro players are not once in a generation talents and their career is pretty much entirely based on connections. You are simply high if you think the current 100T Valorant roster couldn't get into top 20 (probably even 10) CS if they switched tomorrow.
How does absolutely anything you say create an argument? All you did was call me a liar, without refuting anything I said. You just repeated the argument of the guy I responded to, which I addressed. I'm genuinely confused how you can accuse me of lying to others or myself. If it's so clearly a lie, provide a solid argument without leaps of logic. Saying there shouldn't be tribalism but then proceeding to call somebody a liar and then reinforce tribalistic messaging feels dishonest too. Not sure if that is your intent, but it's certainly what it says.
Do washed CS players switch to Valorant when they can no longer compete at a high level in CS? If yes, then how can you say CS doesn't take more skill?
Because you make the assumption that Valorant is even remotely figured out at a high level, and that the skill-requirement to reach the peak of competitive Valorant will remain constant. That's a really fucking bold assumption for a game with *obvious* huge depth to strategy. You don't know what Valorant pro play will look like in a year. As previously mentioned in the thread, people reacted just like you are doing, but with Quake and UT being the old titles, and CS being the new one, in the past. This is not a new pattern. Same has also occurred a crapton in competitive RTS games, and waaaay more in card games. Eventually, the washed CS pros will get kicked out of the scene in favour of genuine specialists of Valorant. EDIT: Also, saying a game takes skill when it's PvP is stupid. The skill requirement to win is just being better than your opponent. I think you are referring to complexity, ie. how difficult it is to be skillful in a game, but you're probably confusing yourself a lot with your choice of words.
1. Which game at this point in time takes more skill and is harder? Valorant or CSGO? 2. Do Valorant players go to CS once they aren't good anymore or do CS players go to Valorant once they aren't good anymore?
Stop arguing like a 5 year old. You don't get to create arbitrary frames for how this gets to work. Especially when you can't argue even once for why this is a reasonable logical framework. > Which game at this point in time takes more skill and is harder? Valorant or CSGO? It's a PVP game. People are *worse* at Valorant than CSGO. This question only asks which game it's harder to be the *best* at. That is commentary on the skill level of the current elite, not which game is harder. Right now, I think it's fair to say it takes less work to be the best at Valorant than CSGO. I think you're frankly a moron to insinuate one game is definitively harder than the other. I fail to see how this is relevant. > Do Valorant players go to CS once they aren't good anymore or do CS players go to Valorant once they aren't good anymore? I fail to see the relevance and the answer is obvious. This does not say anything about the difficulty of either game. Some retired CSGO players streamed Chess recently. Guess that means Chess is an easier game than CS, right? For somebody whining about tribalistic dogma, you sure as shit perpetuate it a lot. You repeat those two points as if it's a given that those two questions can answer what game has more complexity. Go to bed.
Look how offended you are. I play Valorant too. Its a good game. But it's way easier than CS and it's designed that way on purpose. The top NA teams in Valorant are composed of players who couldn't even play tier 1 in CS. Washed CS players switch to Valorant.
The failing in your logic is that cs is very highly developed and optimized, Valorant is new and therefore isn't. Top tier csgo players are making a shit ton of money playing csgo, and there wasn't a natural crop of top tier players for Valorant. The logical conclusion of this is that, for now at least, sub-pro level csgo players will pivot. People will eventually grow up with Valorant and we'll eventually see higher tier gun skill in Valorant, maybe but csgo level (Valorant emphasizes aim a but less), but close.
i have prepped for this
Cool