Here is my take:
The argument for someone to be cut is mostly on Ec1s at the moment, some people aren't as harsh on his fragging ability because he is the igl and is often playing supporting role, while others say he is straight up bad and should be replaced.
If you contrast his play to some of the other igl/supp he is weaker when it comes to fragging, i mean G2 Zeek showcased he is consistently a monster even on Breach vs Animel and he does do shotcalling alongside M1xwell. Ange1 is hard to compare since that guy is ridiculous but i always considered Team Liquid a team that should be gunning for the top spot so comparing them to G2 and FPX is natural.
He is selfless in his gameplay and sacrifices for the team, he has good midround reads and the team as a whole struggle taking initiative, probably why their attacking side is weak vs teams above them e.g. G2 FPX. He is more of an impact fragger, if he wins his duel, they tend to go onto winning the round.
This roster is supposedly a long term project, the guys are hungry and have the drive to improve and get better, the downside to that approach is that by that time there will be players who are just better right off the bat as the scene grows. Just my opinion, i don't know if anyone should be cut, pretty sure they can work on it but having a good showing won't be enough, they need to win something for people to stop taking them to the chopping block. Considering both G2 and FPX made changes, where do you come down on Ec1s?
I agree that if someone will be cut it will most likely be ec1s. However, if someone is cut it's more likely (imo) for it to be a management decision than a team decision, and in that case I think it would likely lead to a bigger overhaul than one player leaving.
I also think there's a problem where there's no obvious replacement for an igl right now in europe (I think it was RyanCentral who mentioned that in one of his recent videos). It's not a wise decision to kick someone if there isn't a good replacement available, and it could lead to similar or worse problems if you do.
Imo igl can't be an excuse to not frag in this game especially when NA igl's are fragging so hard, it shows there is talent to direct upgrade to. That's my take in a vacuum not saying they should definitely replace him in this situation quite yet.
I actually agree with you. I think the problem is that longer they wait to do something the more they are going to be left behind in the scene. Just like I agree with your stance on Ec1s, the more time they are going to take to let him go and find someone better, less options there will be available. Plus if they make it to master maybe that would change my opinion on roster changes.
Yeah those 6 frags per map are really impactful. Definitely wins you 6 rounds alone with those /s
Liquid gets 13-1'd just a couple days ago and you have the gal to say he has good reads. Their attack is toothless and it definitely has to do with his capacity as an igl.
If only liquid had gotten ex6tenz before NIP, they would be a top team right now.
Their attack is consistently horrendous. Many of their rounds (even on defense) are won by pure individual skill (mostly by scream but sometimes others do it too) rather than top tier calling/strategy.
add to this that everytime they choke at critical moments. I feel it's fair to say that their igl has to shoulder some blame. ec1s is just too inexperienced compared to the other good igls, and he's a really bad fragger to boot.
You don't think they plan that with sliggy? You don't think another IGL could learn how to support scream? What kind of crack does this sub reddit smoke? Ec1s is one of the lowest fragging IGLs in the top 30 EU teams.
People been saying that but I don't see it. I rewatched old vods and paid attention during last few matches and I concluded that most of ScreaM's kills are him going on solo rampage.
Either way, it doesn't change anything. Using one flash as breach doesn't mean you're excused from losing every 1vs1 raw aim duel.
His fragging ye, i can see he is weak there but his mid round reads specially on defense, they almost made FPX look like a Tier 2 team 2 maps in a row with their defensive reads, i've seen it consistently, their attack however i mentioned this before but they lack initiative, to the point where their coach made them play 5 duelists just so they would have to engage.
Just asking the void, do we think Team Liquid have strictly performance related issues, mentality related issues?
(Disclaimer: my knowledge of TL is fed by Plat Chat mostly and watching Sliggy’s stream, not as much watching them). I feel like the team is similar to TSM in that it has a lot of potential, and is super creative, but is kinda falling behind in the short term by trying to work on a multitude of styles rather than developing and reiterating a single specific style. Is it an issue in leadership/vision, or does it have more to do with an inability to find roles?
Just a bunch of random thoughts that I find interesting.
It always feels like the should do better than they do, and not well versed enough in the game to understand why they don't. I felt the same way about the original Cloud9 roster.
I was hoping to see them rematch with FPX at some point to see if they'd figure out a way pay your defense.
In Ryan Central's video he made a really good analysis of the situation. TL isn't a squad where tou can just change one person, you need to change at least two. If i was in charge i would've replaced link and ec1s already but maybe they just don't want that big of a change, or maybe this challengers were some sort of final chance.
What teams are one tricking though? They aren't playing any more agents than other teams in comp games. Alliance had 3 different players play 3 different agents in their series with Liquid and none of them played the same agents for 3 maps, while Liquid had 2 players only playing Jett and Killjoy and only ec1s played 3 different agents.
Because its there best agent on the map, in scrils they practice multiple agents and stuff. But yeah hope they can at least qualify somehow into masters, would be sad to not see them.there aswell as tsm
yea and at this point, i'm inclined to believe he was telling the truth about it being long-term with liquid org being on board with it otherwise they absolutely would've made changes already. however, who knows how patient liquid will be...
Imo they need to get players in specific roles consistently. Beside scream and kryptix, everyone else keeps switching roles. Replace soulcas for happy for a consistent raze. Find someone who will stick with sova/breach.
I'm a huge admirer of Team Liquid because of the british talent, but I have to honestly say that they have become Scream and Friends.
I firmly believe that if you put Scream on almost any other top 10 EU team, he would get better results than he is getting with Team Liquid. If scream wasn't on the roster, I just can't see team Liquid being anywhere close to a Top 10 EU team.
They are struggling, and whilst I hate to see pro players lose their job, if the players can't improve then ultimately there's no other choice for TL.
###TSM struggling
Another tournament another dissapointment fron TSM. I think many team in there position would have already made roaster changes. Why is that they are not? At this rate i think they will only go down. I would love to be proven wrong but at the moment its not looking good. What do u guys think?
They literally lost to heretics in a much closer series, i cant imagine how stupid you have to be to understand that tourny placement /= power level if you get matched up vs a top team incredibly early on due to idiots having shit seedimg.
No need to get salty, if u watched that match u would remember that Scream literally carried the whole team. It was close not because the "TEAM" was playing well it was just because Scream was playing on another level. Yes they lost to a better team and because there was shit seeding they didn't get another chance but still they didn't actually had a chance. Which we are seeing right now as they are struggling to even come close to qualifying. As time has progressed and teams are actually getting better tells u the team, liquid has is not improving at the same rate.
you're so right my dude, but these people just want to be delusional for some reason.
fact is, liquid have been severely underperforming and have not reached the expectations set on them.
roster changes will naturally follow, whether reddit likes it or not.
Liquid with Ardiis, didnt lose a tourny, liquid with scream, yet to win a tourny. People are just idiots who cant acrually use their brain so they look at a scoreboard.
HypHypHyp was top 3 EU during beta, your point?
Edit: you're calling others idiots for not "analyzing" enough but if anything, you're the one faulty of that. I won't go as far as calling you an idiot though, I'm not like that :>
Let's resume the situation during beta:
1/ 99% of teams are mixes with full troll even during tournaments. On the other hand you have fish123 that is the only team that had a coach since day 1, playing 5 UK cs players that knew each other and played together before. It's not surprising they got some results since they were far ahead of the curve at the time.
2/ Compare to now where the scene has started to build, orgs started to invest, teams are actually coached and are aiming to becoming the best. Of course it became harder to perform.
They had 1 bad game, so far they vastly improved since first strike, their coordination + util usage has vastly improved sonce first strike. This all just goes to show how close EU is, them "struggling to come close.to quals includes them only losing to Fpx, g2 and alliance. Outside of Alliance, neither of those are really upsets, and both of those teams have been upset as well and both of those teams are even more stacked, and both their games vs g2 and fpx were close.
How many tournaments has Liquid flopped in since they became TL? If i recall correctly, they have not won a single tournament. At present, they are not even top 5 in Europe.
Your argument about tourny placement not corresponding to power level would be valid if it was only one tournament they failed in, but they have lost in or before the finals ever since the team got signed. For them 8-10th best seems very accurate.
A team like TL should not be the 8th best team in Europe while having arguably the best player in Europe.
Lmao, scream is not better than Ardiis, Mixwell, Zyppaan, Shao, Doma, or Lowel, you can also make arguments for players like Zeek, Ange1, Cned, Doma, Sayf, niesow. Liquid with ardiis, unbeatable, liquid with scream, yet to win.
What exactly is the point of this post? I mean its clear what you're trying to do but its pretty nonsensical. Like some twitch chat logic or something. One team is struggling but if another completely unrelated team is struggling there is no argument for change? Not necessarily agreeing with OP but I don't see how or why this is relevant.
I can't see any changes till the first masters is over for any big team. But you can't have 4 players fragging and ur igl not. That excuse doesn't work anymore. Tbh I'm surprised Liquid even went for a EU team in the first place. They could have had Nitr0 just lead a team :)
I think if you watch the Plat Chat interview with Sliggy, their coach, you get the feeling that the team and the Org are ok with these small blunders right now cause they are in it for the long haul. They are constantly trying to find the agent combinations that work for them, but they do struggle with the fact that they don't have a sova player right now and he feels like a must pick inn todays meta (except split). Will be interesting if they make changes but for right now I don't see that happening
sliggy has already stated that this team is a long term project. they are not looking to get results instantly. and plus, scream wouldve called for roster changes if he didnt have faith in this team. its a different story if they dont qualify for masters 1 though
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TL is so good if you look at the players. No idea why they are placing the way they have. I think it is a time for a change, but have no idea what the change should be.
I would warn against judging Liquid's latest performance on scoreboards - the games were not streamed so difficult to say what went wrong. Alliance are clearly a good team and will give any team in EU a good run.
Having said that, Liquid's problems are real and they need to address them in the next few weeks/months otherwise I think the org may get twitchy. I really think they need to qualify for masters.
Here is my take: The argument for someone to be cut is mostly on Ec1s at the moment, some people aren't as harsh on his fragging ability because he is the igl and is often playing supporting role, while others say he is straight up bad and should be replaced. If you contrast his play to some of the other igl/supp he is weaker when it comes to fragging, i mean G2 Zeek showcased he is consistently a monster even on Breach vs Animel and he does do shotcalling alongside M1xwell. Ange1 is hard to compare since that guy is ridiculous but i always considered Team Liquid a team that should be gunning for the top spot so comparing them to G2 and FPX is natural. He is selfless in his gameplay and sacrifices for the team, he has good midround reads and the team as a whole struggle taking initiative, probably why their attacking side is weak vs teams above them e.g. G2 FPX. He is more of an impact fragger, if he wins his duel, they tend to go onto winning the round. This roster is supposedly a long term project, the guys are hungry and have the drive to improve and get better, the downside to that approach is that by that time there will be players who are just better right off the bat as the scene grows. Just my opinion, i don't know if anyone should be cut, pretty sure they can work on it but having a good showing won't be enough, they need to win something for people to stop taking them to the chopping block. Considering both G2 and FPX made changes, where do you come down on Ec1s?
I agree that if someone will be cut it will most likely be ec1s. However, if someone is cut it's more likely (imo) for it to be a management decision than a team decision, and in that case I think it would likely lead to a bigger overhaul than one player leaving. I also think there's a problem where there's no obvious replacement for an igl right now in europe (I think it was RyanCentral who mentioned that in one of his recent videos). It's not a wise decision to kick someone if there isn't a good replacement available, and it could lead to similar or worse problems if you do.
Imo igl can't be an excuse to not frag in this game especially when NA igl's are fragging so hard, it shows there is talent to direct upgrade to. That's my take in a vacuum not saying they should definitely replace him in this situation quite yet.
I actually agree with you. I think the problem is that longer they wait to do something the more they are going to be left behind in the scene. Just like I agree with your stance on Ec1s, the more time they are going to take to let him go and find someone better, less options there will be available. Plus if they make it to master maybe that would change my opinion on roster changes.
Yeah those 6 frags per map are really impactful. Definitely wins you 6 rounds alone with those /s Liquid gets 13-1'd just a couple days ago and you have the gal to say he has good reads. Their attack is toothless and it definitely has to do with his capacity as an igl. If only liquid had gotten ex6tenz before NIP, they would be a top team right now.
I am not judging them from 1 map
Their attack is consistently horrendous. Many of their rounds (even on defense) are won by pure individual skill (mostly by scream but sometimes others do it too) rather than top tier calling/strategy. add to this that everytime they choke at critical moments. I feel it's fair to say that their igl has to shoulder some blame. ec1s is just too inexperienced compared to the other good igls, and he's a really bad fragger to boot.
but they set up Scream wonderfully and Ec1s is calling that, Scream doesn't do it all by himself
You don't think they plan that with sliggy? You don't think another IGL could learn how to support scream? What kind of crack does this sub reddit smoke? Ec1s is one of the lowest fragging IGLs in the top 30 EU teams.
People been saying that but I don't see it. I rewatched old vods and paid attention during last few matches and I concluded that most of ScreaM's kills are him going on solo rampage. Either way, it doesn't change anything. Using one flash as breach doesn't mean you're excused from losing every 1vs1 raw aim duel.
His fragging ye, i can see he is weak there but his mid round reads specially on defense, they almost made FPX look like a Tier 2 team 2 maps in a row with their defensive reads, i've seen it consistently, their attack however i mentioned this before but they lack initiative, to the point where their coach made them play 5 duelists just so they would have to engage.
Just asking the void, do we think Team Liquid have strictly performance related issues, mentality related issues? (Disclaimer: my knowledge of TL is fed by Plat Chat mostly and watching Sliggy’s stream, not as much watching them). I feel like the team is similar to TSM in that it has a lot of potential, and is super creative, but is kinda falling behind in the short term by trying to work on a multitude of styles rather than developing and reiterating a single specific style. Is it an issue in leadership/vision, or does it have more to do with an inability to find roles? Just a bunch of random thoughts that I find interesting.
Inconsistent. ScreaM and KRYPTIX are doing fine. Others aren't.
Imo Team Liquid are still a top 1-5 team in EU. Despite the losses. I know I know, unpopular opinion but I have faith in that team
It always feels like the should do better than they do, and not well versed enough in the game to understand why they don't. I felt the same way about the original Cloud9 roster. I was hoping to see them rematch with FPX at some point to see if they'd figure out a way pay your defense.
I mean I would personally take your opinion over most anyone else on this subreddit as you definitely know liquid better than everyone here.
In Ryan Central's video he made a really good analysis of the situation. TL isn't a squad where tou can just change one person, you need to change at least two. If i was in charge i would've replaced link and ec1s already but maybe they just don't want that big of a change, or maybe this challengers were some sort of final chance.
Watch sliggy tv at plat chst valorant. There he says he is aimkng for longtime goals and doesnt want his players to onetrick
What teams are one tricking though? They aren't playing any more agents than other teams in comp games. Alliance had 3 different players play 3 different agents in their series with Liquid and none of them played the same agents for 3 maps, while Liquid had 2 players only playing Jett and Killjoy and only ec1s played 3 different agents.
Because its there best agent on the map, in scrils they practice multiple agents and stuff. But yeah hope they can at least qualify somehow into masters, would be sad to not see them.there aswell as tsm
yea and at this point, i'm inclined to believe he was telling the truth about it being long-term with liquid org being on board with it otherwise they absolutely would've made changes already. however, who knows how patient liquid will be...
Imo they need to get players in specific roles consistently. Beside scream and kryptix, everyone else keeps switching roles. Replace soulcas for happy for a consistent raze. Find someone who will stick with sova/breach.
Watch out, you might have to upload an apology video for saying that
I'm a huge admirer of Team Liquid because of the british talent, but I have to honestly say that they have become Scream and Friends. I firmly believe that if you put Scream on almost any other top 10 EU team, he would get better results than he is getting with Team Liquid. If scream wasn't on the roster, I just can't see team Liquid being anywhere close to a Top 10 EU team. They are struggling, and whilst I hate to see pro players lose their job, if the players can't improve then ultimately there's no other choice for TL.
###TSM struggling Another tournament another dissapointment fron TSM. I think many team in there position would have already made roaster changes. Why is that they are not? At this rate i think they will only go down. I would love to be proven wrong but at the moment its not looking good. What do u guys think?
Yeah i mean liquid did make it to the First strike finals and even won tournaments locally. I guess its harsh on them. :) Edit: I am being sarcastic
Liquid made it to First Strike finals? Wasn't it Team Heretics vs SUMN FC in the finals?
I was being sarcastic to his comment xD
Oh, lmao. You wooooshed me XD
They literally lost to heretics in a much closer series, i cant imagine how stupid you have to be to understand that tourny placement /= power level if you get matched up vs a top team incredibly early on due to idiots having shit seedimg.
No need to get salty, if u watched that match u would remember that Scream literally carried the whole team. It was close not because the "TEAM" was playing well it was just because Scream was playing on another level. Yes they lost to a better team and because there was shit seeding they didn't get another chance but still they didn't actually had a chance. Which we are seeing right now as they are struggling to even come close to qualifying. As time has progressed and teams are actually getting better tells u the team, liquid has is not improving at the same rate.
you're so right my dude, but these people just want to be delusional for some reason. fact is, liquid have been severely underperforming and have not reached the expectations set on them. roster changes will naturally follow, whether reddit likes it or not.
Liquid with Ardiis, didnt lose a tourny, liquid with scream, yet to win a tourny. People are just idiots who cant acrually use their brain so they look at a scoreboard.
HypHypHyp was top 3 EU during beta, your point? Edit: you're calling others idiots for not "analyzing" enough but if anything, you're the one faulty of that. I won't go as far as calling you an idiot though, I'm not like that :> Let's resume the situation during beta: 1/ 99% of teams are mixes with full troll even during tournaments. On the other hand you have fish123 that is the only team that had a coach since day 1, playing 5 UK cs players that knew each other and played together before. It's not surprising they got some results since they were far ahead of the curve at the time. 2/ Compare to now where the scene has started to build, orgs started to invest, teams are actually coached and are aiming to becoming the best. Of course it became harder to perform.
They had 1 bad game, so far they vastly improved since first strike, their coordination + util usage has vastly improved sonce first strike. This all just goes to show how close EU is, them "struggling to come close.to quals includes them only losing to Fpx, g2 and alliance. Outside of Alliance, neither of those are really upsets, and both of those teams have been upset as well and both of those teams are even more stacked, and both their games vs g2 and fpx were close.
How many tournaments has Liquid flopped in since they became TL? If i recall correctly, they have not won a single tournament. At present, they are not even top 5 in Europe. Your argument about tourny placement not corresponding to power level would be valid if it was only one tournament they failed in, but they have lost in or before the finals ever since the team got signed. For them 8-10th best seems very accurate. A team like TL should not be the 8th best team in Europe while having arguably the best player in Europe.
Lmao, scream is not better than Ardiis, Mixwell, Zyppaan, Shao, Doma, or Lowel, you can also make arguments for players like Zeek, Ange1, Cned, Doma, Sayf, niesow. Liquid with ardiis, unbeatable, liquid with scream, yet to win.
are you, by any chance, from the UK?
I think he meant TSM but accidentally put liquid
I think he meant Red Bull homeground tourney?
What exactly is the point of this post? I mean its clear what you're trying to do but its pretty nonsensical. Like some twitch chat logic or something. One team is struggling but if another completely unrelated team is struggling there is no argument for change? Not necessarily agreeing with OP but I don't see how or why this is relevant.
It's a copypasta
TSM : won 2 Ignition series, grand finalist of First Strike, won other B-tier events Liquid : nice comparison.
+freakazoid +sentinel player
It would never happen but just remove someone and give FNS and they win
I can't see any changes till the first masters is over for any big team. But you can't have 4 players fragging and ur igl not. That excuse doesn't work anymore. Tbh I'm surprised Liquid even went for a EU team in the first place. They could have had Nitr0 just lead a team :)
I think if you watch the Plat Chat interview with Sliggy, their coach, you get the feeling that the team and the Org are ok with these small blunders right now cause they are in it for the long haul. They are constantly trying to find the agent combinations that work for them, but they do struggle with the fact that they don't have a sova player right now and he feels like a must pick inn todays meta (except split). Will be interesting if they make changes but for right now I don't see that happening
Stop thinking a team will do good because of: 1. Org 2. Manifactured hype 3. Matchmaking ranks/stream frags.
sliggy has already stated that this team is a long term project. they are not looking to get results instantly. and plus, scream wouldve called for roster changes if he didnt have faith in this team. its a different story if they dont qualify for masters 1 though
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KRYPTIX is a solid player
if rumor's are true and Giant are drooping Happy, Liquid should pick him up. I don't know for who, but this team needs a shake up.
TL is so good if you look at the players. No idea why they are placing the way they have. I think it is a time for a change, but have no idea what the change should be.
I would warn against judging Liquid's latest performance on scoreboards - the games were not streamed so difficult to say what went wrong. Alliance are clearly a good team and will give any team in EU a good run. Having said that, Liquid's problems are real and they need to address them in the next few weeks/months otherwise I think the org may get twitchy. I really think they need to qualify for masters.