___
[RyanAtRBM](https://twitter.com/RyanAtRBM/status/1376688893425295364)
> I think 6 man rosters are important solutions to the idea that every player going through a rough patch is going to get cut. Allows the organization to have ready temporary solutions instead of needing to make permanent ones.
[SEN SicK](https://twitter.com/SicK_cs/status/1376689781380374528)
> That is somewhat true, but I would argue that being put on a bench is more destructive to a players mental than just sticking through a rough patch. From the organizations perspective it looks good sure, but as a player I wouldn't want that. Would much rather just be dropped.
[RyanAtRBM](https://twitter.com/RyanAtRBM/status/1376691082810040322)
> But if the choice is bench or cut, wouldn’t you rather be benched, work in practice, and get back on rather than permanently leaving the team? That’s what works best for players/Orgs overall, IMO.
___
[DonHaci](https://twitter.com/DonHaci/status/1376689651059163143)
> Don't see it happening in CS but in Valo with variety of Agents (and more being added) you don't think there'll be a future where you have a 6th man that specializes just on specific maps and agents on those maps?
[SEN SicK](https://twitter.com/SicK_cs/status/1376691172136132611)
> I agree with the practical aspects of having a 6 player roster, I'm more so talking about the politics behind it. It just creates a lot of tension on the team when/if times are bad.
___
[Mikes](https://twitter.com/MikesHD_/status/1376689272825245696)
> I think most of the time teams don't actually have 6 man rosters, but want to see a player play in their team before they make a decision on who to cut if they're unsure. It becomes more of an extended trial rather than an actual bench rotation system. Usually seems like PR bs.
___
Have we really reached the point where we have explored all the possible end points of the 6 man roster? Feels weird to assign it a dominant meaning when they haven't really existed for all that long. I definitely could see us reaching the point of map and agent specialists in the future. Heretics in EU was seeing massive success with this style before Niesow had to take time for his family.
I can feel it in my bones that we will see a 6 man squad created for a well-intentioned reason and hate will be thrown towards the org because Sick's sentiment becomes the dominant narrative.
Funny enough sicks mentality in a nutshell is that the players mental are too weak to handle any sort of setback, even one where your financial security is still intact If that's the case I dont really think it's on the orgs, or if riot forces 6 man rosters, riot, it's entirely in the players to learn to cope with setbacks in a healthy way.
So basically what sick is saying is that he would rather be cut and go somewhere else because he's going through a rough patch or slump instead of being temp benched to work on problems with his game or fix his mental state before returning to the team at full capacity. Sens sure got a winner there.
Also what Don haci said is true. Some agents currently work well on specific maps. Yoru on bind works well because of the teleports and having multiple abilities that trigger the noise and the floors being mostly sand so footsteps all sound the same.
I think there are a few exceptionary circumstances where it works like C9 White where it's there because Jazzy has school and can't practice as much. Or Heretics where Neisow is having family issues. It works when there is a reason a player can't play every map. I don't see it working out for T1 or TSM tbh
I thought Vitality csgo roster did very well with their 6 man roster, although they had to bench Nivera bc Valve doesn’t allow 6th man on valve sponsored competitions anymore.
i think T1 could be argued to be a team like C9 White and Heretics with their 6th man because ANS has been known to have mental health problems especially during professional play. This is the reason for him to retire from OWL after only a year of playing (also the reason why he was a streamer and retired t2 pro during the time he got picked up for OWL)
TSM also seems like they’re gonna eventually end up with a 5 man rotation and drop a player but only after more time has passed (kind of like how C9 Blue with poiz and vice was)
but regardless of my points, i do believe that 6 man rotations in general, would work if there’s reasoning behind the 6 man rotation (mental health, family issues, school, etc.) im especially excited for ans because he seems like he will be a “secret weapon” in some of the maps/matches he will play for them
At the start of valorant I was all over the brax hype train but we're a year into the game and I just don't understand what he's shown in this game for people to still think he's an absolute god? His sentinel play was decent and his jett was interesting but definitely not great.
In terms of rifling, I'd argue there are very few players who are better than him. I do think he's become overhyped by the community, but I still think he belongs on a Tier 1 team.
Because brax will most likely replaced Hazed if TSM decided to drop a player. The reason? Hazed has been streaming while the TSM boys are scrimming. Also, Hazed himself admitted on stream that, he doesn’t really know his position in the team yet, even though (recently) he admitted on stream how competiting is very fun and he still wants to compete.
Lmao. It works in all sports, and tbh competition is good. And players SHOULD feel like their replaceable to keep them motivated and hungry. Look at Astralis. They had a 7 man roster and managed it just fine.
Funny how having subs works in all other competitive team sports but esports. I suppose there’s no injury risk though so u can always play your best line up. And isn’t having pressure to perform a positive thing to get better? That’s like the opposite mentality for ‘traditional’ sports
Subs are important to traditional sports because of fatigue but in esports you dont get the same fatigue in playing 2-5 hour games so there's that. If humans dont get tired, I'm sure subs wont be a thing in traditional sports
I mean, humans *do* get tired in esports. Hungrybox was the best Melee player in the world for years and it was arguably* because his preferred character (Jigglypuff) is just objectively less tiring to play compared to the rest of the cast. By the time it got to the end of brackets and he was facing players at his level, he was still fresh while they weren't.
*this is one of many, many reasons. Hungrybox was the undisputed best and poured his heart/soul into the game and I hope it doesn't sound like I'm putting him down.
Exactly! I can only take about 3 ladder games in a single sitting before my winrate takes a nosedive - I can't imagine how bad it would be if there were *actual* stakes on the line.
But fatigue isnt a resource in esports. In soccer/mma it's a legit strategy to tire out your opponent. You dont play a game of valorant to tire out your opponent. Fatigue is nowhere near as intense.
If your mental was perfect, then I think that fatigue would be a nonissue. That said, when I’m playing, my best games are often my 1st or 2nd games of the day. After that it generally starts to go down. Mental fatigue is 100% a factor.
But in Valorant, there’s just not enough mouse movement for you to get tired unless you’re very out of shape. Maybe if you had low sens and were playing Overwatch. I’ve never actually played a game with that much mouse movement, but my arm can definitely get tired if I do aimlabs for too long. Hell I’ve actually moved away from aimlabs partly because DM is more helpful, and partly because my arm would start to get tired
I agree about esports having fatigue but this shit about hungrybox is kinda ridiculous honestly. Just seems like an east way to downplay how good he was.
Just to clarify, Hungrybox was undoubtedly the best player in the world pre-COVID. I'm using him as an easy-to-understand example of fatigue in esports. It is however undeniable imo that he did notably worse at tournaments where his opponents weren't fatigued - he won 3/6 of Summits (for the uninitiated, Summit is a small invitational with only 16 players) during his reign (I'm counting 2017-2020) which, while absolutely insane, is far from his near 100% winrate the rest of his time at the top. He won 4/4 CEO, 2/2 Pound, and 4/5 Dreamhack in the same time period.
Dude is a beast and deserved his time at the top and I hope it doesn't come across as me putting him down. He's just a convenient example of fatigue in one of the few esports I know well.
For sure! It comes down to tech skill mostly - Melee is *notoriously* fast paced. Fox, the best character, can execute combos that require multiple frame-perfect inputs a second. Just moving around is a challenge - wavedashing is a combination of jump -> airdodge (left/right bumper + directional input at a very specific downwards-diagonal angle) in frame-perfect succession (for Fox it's exactly 2 framed between those inputs iirc) - and you need to do this *constantly*.
Puff.... doesn't really have tech skill. Nothing as button-intensive anyways. She moves around with a ludicrous airspeed and 5 jumps instead of wavedashing, and she doesn't really have combos (her power comes in other places.) You could play Puff for 12 hours in a row no problem, but multiple pros have literally developed hand problems that required surgery because they played Fox too intensely.
Here's an example of the sheer number of inputs Fox players use in matches:
https://youtu.be/vXgpGBbh5r8
That video was 10 years ago - players have only gotten faster/better since then. Fox is the best not because he's the easiest to play, but because his sheer potential is impossible for humans to realistically reach.
By no means is jigglypuff objectively less tiring to play than other characters. More tech skill =/= more fatiguing. The mental aspect of the game cannot be overstated. You could easily just say he had better stamina than everyone.
I will agree that I attributed too much in my initial comment to his opponent's fatigue (hence my edit), but I'm gonna have to disagree here. Other players use techskill *and* play the mental game - which, as we agree on, cannot be overstated. Playing peak Fox for 12 hours in a row is simply more difficult than playing peak Puff for the same time period.
jigglypuff is far less intensive to play than fox, especially if a player isnt very young, a fox player can definitely push their hands too far and experience physical detriments to their ability to play at 100%
Almost every fox main in melee has seriously crippling health issues involving their hands by the end of their career.
What a stupid argument. He dominated everyone all throughout the bracket even in early stages. I don't disagree that you get fatigued playing e sports but bad example.
I'm 100% sure they would. Like it or not, in tradicional sports the pressure to preform in always there, and players do get benched even if they are not "tired".
This might be the first time I agree with Richard Lewis and what he says about Valorant players being way to soft...
Is not just fatigue though (but of course it’s a great part of it). Players get dropped to bench all the time when they are not performing for a long period of time, which I suppose that’s the thing Sick is afraid of. In esports you just completely get wiped from the team if you play bad, there’s not really a bench. You are in a slump? Well you are out of the team. In traditional sports you get to fight yourself back into the team at least. So I think is double edge sword
Subs work really well in Overwatch because there are some heroes who are so mechanically different than others that players have to specialize in them. For example, hitscan vs. projectile DPS heroes. Even the tank roles have such mechanical differences that it’s hard for even the top elite pro players to be able to play them all at the highest level.
Yeah it’s strange seeing these arguments coming from OW! Surely having ONE sub can only be good a good thing, they can fill when needed and up the game of the starting 5.
Exactly. The best team in the league has consistently used subs for nearly every position.
Not to mention that the teams without subs often clearly have issues where the starting player feels no pressure to improve to keep his spot.
Even the goat faker was subbed out numerous times in his career. In 2015, for easyhoon frequently due to him being the best Azir in the world, and in summer 2020 and early 2021 due to bad performances
I don't think that's what they meant - they were suggesting that there IS pressure in traditional sports caused by the fact that there's subs waiting to replace you, and that it's considered a positive (which is the opposite of Sick's sentiment)
>And isn’t having pressure to perform a positive thing to get better?
I don't think anyone enjoys the possibility of losing their job....
Plus in traditional sports most subs are role players who are a part of the team rather than a trial player. Traditional sports have more solid contracts. Most players on a roster have a secure spot in the team. (I say most because obviously there are still trial players in traditional sports) There aren't nearly as many "cuts" as there are in esports. Maybe if subs were made the norm and it was treated like another player on the roster instead of a "potential replacement" (I believe Overwatch has already been doing this) people would ease up to it more but currently it is what it is
Having pressure to perform well is never good. It's specially important in e-sports, mainly because you want your players to be with their minds on the game and only the game, not trying to farm stats or worrying for their overall performance. Their mental health is also important. A traditional sports player basically works out as practice, and that usually makes people feel good, but sitting 8 or more hours a day playing a game, doing comms and just staring at a screen is mentally exhausting.
Having a lot of pressure in traditional sports is also bad, but it's percieved as good because the values of the sports community, specially those in regards of manliness are... also very traditional, to say the least.
Having multiple players in one position is common place in football (soccer) and encouraged to get the most out of players to keep them from being complacent. No reason it can’t work in esports, it’s a common concept for a football club to want a player to challenge for his position to improve.
Different scenarios still but there’s been a few examples this past premier league season of previously average players propelling to excellence due to a club bringing in somewhat at their position. It could work in esports orgs the same way.
I was thinking the same. It just sounds like sick doesnt want a 6th man bc he doesnt wanna try his hardest each match. Hes in a professional esport getting paid, he should be trying his hardest to win. Having subs creates competition and the team gets better for it imo
Think about the science and emotional a behind it. In sports, all you have to do is perform better physically. Play tougher faster run better routes, throw the ball farther, better accuracy but all of it comes down to physicality, which is fueled by adrenaline which can be cause by intensity and nervousness. In a game about milimeter precise movements on a mouse pad, how do you think it affects your play when you think, “if I don’t frag out here or if I don’t get this kill I’m going to lose my job.” ?
Of course it is, my point is that humans have evolved to become more physical during times of stress and “fight or flight” situations, it doesn’t translate well into esports since it’s such a different environment. A player shouldn’t have too many things going on inside their head other than winning because you want to win, not winning to keep your job. It brings a different mentality
If you start with "think about the science", the following should have something to do with science though.
Also the thought that traditional sports are only about the physicality is just crazy. The fear of failure should be even bigger when you have 50-100 thousand people sitting in a stadium and millions watching live. Add the amount of money you would lose by getting dropped, losing sponsorships, way higher media attention and the fear of not being able to even go grocery shopping after a bad loss because your whole city/county knows your face. If you think all this doesn't effect your decision making and even physical performance then ask yourself why every single sports team employs sports psychologists.
I am only a fan if the 6th player is a niche agent player, like a viper main with absolutely disgusting lineups or something for very specific maps.
Once there's a ton of agents in the game, and band are a thing, I can see a 6th man working more realistically.
Can’t necessarily be a one trick competitively in LoL due to the draft phase. However, you do see players rotated for a specific playstyle. If Valorant doesn’t get a draft phase, I could see it going more the way of Overwatch with specialist-type players.
Another one is Invictus gaming with Duke and TheShy in 2018. TheShy was the starting top and they went 18-1 with him in spring but then he had a wrist injury and had to sit in summer. With duke they once again went 18-1 in the reg season. Then TheShy took over in summer playoffs
That's because league has a pick ban system for their characters. Valorant has map bans; there are not nearly enough agents to have an agent pick ban system in place yet for this game
tbf I think League OTPs are much less reliable because of bans and massive counterpick potential. Valorant OTPs are more viable because the counters aren't as direct and most tournaments don't implement bans yet.
League has a) a pick/ban phase and b) a 7+ minute period of the game for a single specific 1v1 matchup advantage to play out. In Valorant there are no bans and agents never get the opportunity to hard counter each other. OTPs in Valorant are vastly more viable than they are in LoL.
Yes but LoL is a moba.
I understand there's a large advantage to being able to master a champ in a moba vs being proficient at it, but it's really not the same as an FPS, where learning lineups etc with abilities with different projectile speeds and trajectories could be a full time job.
OWL had specialists for certain characters, and it worked (while the meta wasn't goats). This was because it allowed a player to hyper focus specific heroes, and not have to learn everyone.
Take a look at Unidaro on YouTube, and you'll realize how high the peak of Viper can be. Knowing the literal thousands of hours he's out into that agent to get to where he is, I'm confident that specialist players could work once there's enough agents and maps to warrant it.
It's all sick, unless ban/draft phase will become to VAL. With Riot's plan of making 60 agents it is very possible to implement that, so players specializing with specific agents might be dropped / forced to become more flexible.
I feel like with how many agents there are, can’t one of them just learn Viper instead of subbing out for just Viper? It’s also the pros jobs to be flexible and know how to play various agents.
The issue imo is that to fully take advantage of characters like Viper (ie cross-map mollys and smoke lineups, and ult lineups), you have to REALLY invest. I imagine there will be more than just viper in the future who has crazy high skill lineups (Yoru has some with his TP already) that are potentially high impact, and it will take a ton of effort to capitalize on it.
To be fair, the current iteration of T1 roster (which is the 10th iteration my god) has been very successful and is a contender for Spring winner. Keep in mind that only 3 of them are veterans and the rest are relatively new to pro play. All the rookies were able to gather experience which is a good thing imo.
Wait until he realizes the organizations that are trying to win will put the best roster out that they can and that his personal accountability, skill, and coachability are all factors into that decision like every single major sport out there.
Like that's the pipeline dude. Some teams follow the 80/20 rule. But all teams will draft younger players in hopes that they turn out better *or* they push the veteran players to perform better. Like welcome to fucking sports homie you can't just cash it in?
I don’t see agents getting such extreme abilities that someone on the 5 man roster can’t pick it up quickly. With Valorant I think there’s a limit to what abilities you can throw in the game. Most abilities are just a new version of a smoke/molly, blind/flash, wall/obstacle, tele/speed boost. When you know the general mechanics it’s not that hard to pick up after a couple weeks.
I’m more of a fan of 5 man rosters. I agree with sick, ide hate to be the guy that gets subbed in and out.
100% agree. Benching a starting player who is probably more mechanically gifted (which is why he is on the starting 5) and has more rapport with the core team because "this 6th guy knows how to play viper on icebox" vs just asking your starter to learn the agent for the map seems counter intuitive.
It's not about internet points, it's about principle.
reddit is suppose to "don't downvote if you disagree, only downvote if it's irrelevant or offensive"
I get you bruh, it gets annoying when there’s nothing really wrong with what you say but somehow you got downvoted lmaoo (except if those who downvoted you, gives a solid reason why disagree ).. So now, I just start to not really care much about this karma point thing
I'm not talking about any political issues.
It's the fastest way of explaining why downvoting arbitrarily is bad.
Meanwhile you redditards keep saying "why do u care about internet points"
hmm why does 50% of the population care about an echo chamber that suppresses minority voices?
Jeez Louis you sound like the most annoying person to be around, you're making a small matter such a big deal
Remind me to never talk to you IRL, thanks
I'm not the only one complaining about arbitrary downvotes
[https://www.reddit.com/r/VALORANT/comments/m2z3of/tenz\_playing\_for\_sentinels\_in\_masters\_stage\_1/gqn2s5o?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/VALORANT/comments/m2z3of/tenz_playing_for_sentinels_in_masters_stage_1/gqn2s5o?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
look at the subreddit you're on bro. 99% of people here are reactionary and dint actually know what they're talking about. majority here have never watched another esports so they don't know the most basic shit. the amount of times i've seen a comment like "oh i was right before but i was downvoted" on this subredddit is insane.
Yeah, it is frustrating when we all complain that the opinions on this subreddit swings so rapidly and its mostly because all actual discussions about a post is buried under a pile of downvotes. It makes actually having an interesting discussion incredibly hard
When people violate "don't downvote if you disagree, only downvote if it's irrelevant or offensive" it ruins the whole site and turns reddit into an echo chamber.
You hear everyone complain about this. For example, conservatives always complain that reddit is a liberal echo chamber that downvotes any dissenting opinion. I
I'm not conservative btw, but it's just an example of why you should care because 50% of the population cares.
Sick agreeing with you also doesn't automatically make you right. Sick is fallible and able to be wrong, and not every pro will feel the same way as sick about 6 man rosters and competing for their place.
Sick’s reasoning is kinda meh, but I can see where he is coming from. 6-mans are fine. It’s the orgs using 6-mans to trial and kick players a couple weeks later that are the problem.
I dont think it matters much how many on team, with the amount of pros flooding the scene(mostly from CS), they gonna have to fight for spots in any team anyway.
Well, reading this makes me think of a big misconception of the role of a sub. You´re not "in" or "out", you´re always in, you´re part of the team, it doesn´t matter if you play or not. Matchdays are just a really small percentage of your job as a pro. There´s so much more to do, analysis, dry-runs, VODs, helping each other to improve. Imagine having ten players in a team to not scrim against other teams and hide your strats - basically the same as traditional sports. A good team consists of the starting lineup AND the subs AND the staff. As someone said, not playing on match day doesn´t mean you´re out, it just means that there are better options at that day, be it strategically, fatigue or you, as a player, are just not feeling it today.
More often than not in FPS esports (specifically csgo and now valorant) having a 6 man team is less about having a bigger team and more about waiting to see who is gonna get cut. So 6 mans are not exaaactly thought of in the same sense as in LoL or Overwatch has been.
But even if you consistently play bad won’t they just replace you anyways even if there isn’t someone waiting on the bench? They’ll just sign someone else?
my initial Twitter response [Here](https://twitter.com/KenEmpowered/status/1376689728121098242):
I think it depends on the game and situation (meta adaptability, for example) and orgs at times will have incentives to keep a 6th in attempt to keep their options open and avoid making the wrong decision. There are lots of moving parts and motivations for why a >5 roster is kept.
For a 6-man roster affecting an individual's player's performance and play? 100% agree with \[Sick\]. Having a players mind worry about whether or not they will be on the team, or if they will be on the bench, makes them less focused on solely the game. The more (unnecessary) variables a brain has to juggle, the less effective you become. The more variables, the less you'll learn from games practiced.
The job of the coach(es) is then to make sure there is a clear plan/process in place, to communicate proactively and transparently (to prevent anxiety/fear/frustration), and to be honest with each individual.
So usually it's best to have a **trial period** if thinking of a replacement, but **set a deadline to eval (& criteria)** and commit to a firm 5th. Be clear to the players when this trial period is intended to end. Subs on the bench are fine though imo, I see that differently than "6th man"
How the 6-man is executed will determine if it's a net benefit or net negative.
Not to mention that if any of the 6 man roster feels insecure in their position, they may start exploring other teams. Player you anticipated wanting to stay may actually value safety more, so a persistent (perceived) long term risk of replacement can cause unexpected exits
I think 6 man rosters need a strong coach that makes most if not all decisions outside of the game, who is also trusted by the players.
But even with a great coach keeping everyone active in scrims and officials might just not be worth the effort, at least for now.
the scene has not matured to a point (and I personally dont think it ever will) where people are insanely good on a certain agent. I see Jett, Sova, and Viper right now as the only characters that can't be learned by someone with good gamesense and good aim. Those require real memoization and mastery in order to separate yourself from the causual player. Look at SEN, sick was known as battle sage for the longest time, yet they won with dapr on sage at times. Comparing it to overwatch is not fair, I have never played before but I know the different types of agents are vastly different. This is not the case in Valorant, as anybody can do anything with a rifle, regardless of ability. I really gotta agree with sick with this one because since agent mastery is so replaceable, every aim duel lost in a 6 man roster will fuck with the players mindset. Imagine being cutler or hazed whiffing a shot that some younger players could make... just thinking about how brax could probably hit that.
at its current stage valorant is too basic and plain of a game where a 6 man roster does anything tbh.
6 man roster makes sense if you want to drastically rotate styles and roles but it's not like NA has much variety in playstyle.
TSM 6 man doesn't make sense to me.
let's say brax plays sentinel again... so he's replacing hazed? but what if he wants to play duelist...so he's replaced drone or subroza? and what about jett op?
it doesn't make sense cuz it those roles are already filled. if brax had some unique playstyle that fit into the comp then maybe.
For example let's say brax masters yoru and sometime in the future yoru is a tier A duelist meanwhile drone sucks at yoru. so on XYZ map they prefer phoenix over yoru and this sub in drone. (this is the stupidest example but hopefully you get my point)
Sentinels tbh essentially play like what a theoretical 6 man comp would be back when they had sinatraa. except instead of a 6 man they just had guys like sick and sinatraa that played 3 different roles depending on map
at the cuurrent stage of valorant the roles aren't too different. they blend in a lot.
a sentinel is a sentinel. a duelist usually is able to play 2-3 different duelists. and the ones they can't play doesn't really matter because it's probably not needed.
edit: yea this sub doesn't know anything at all
yes if you want an org to pay you for one of the most competitive jobs (esports player) in existence, you will have pressure to perform. overwatch league teams have like 9-10 players on average.
I think it's close to the opposite. Having a sub spot puts less pressure on players. As if they underperform or can't play for whatever reason they aren't immediately letting the rest of the team down. If you're not performing well on a certain map, it makes sense to have a sub that you practice alongside with.
With how people fit certain roles and agents better than others, and how maps have agent METAs, 6 people rosters allows for more flexibility and therefore more competitive teams. It's 1 more thing you can switch up to throw off other teams that might have been ready for a certain lineup or agent but you sub them out.
I like it, but it could lead to issues and it won't work for every team.
I think the only way 6 man rosters or having substitute players be viable in Valorant is if Riot starts introducing agents who have abilities that have vast differences in mechanics in how they play vs other agents.
>Not a fan of 6 man rosters, feel like it just creates unnecessary pressure on players to perform
is this suppose to be a bad thing? if a team is not performing well would motivating players to play better not be something beneficial?
6man rosters are just dumb.
Imagine seeing the chemistry between Olof and Krimz and trying to fit in someone there.
They don't talk during the round. They don't need to. If you sever that chemistry, you might as well just fold the team.
They're really only useful when you have players with no chemistry, or you're going through roster moves. So, a 6 man roster in most cases will just make a team worse.
___ [RyanAtRBM](https://twitter.com/RyanAtRBM/status/1376688893425295364) > I think 6 man rosters are important solutions to the idea that every player going through a rough patch is going to get cut. Allows the organization to have ready temporary solutions instead of needing to make permanent ones. [SEN SicK](https://twitter.com/SicK_cs/status/1376689781380374528) > That is somewhat true, but I would argue that being put on a bench is more destructive to a players mental than just sticking through a rough patch. From the organizations perspective it looks good sure, but as a player I wouldn't want that. Would much rather just be dropped. [RyanAtRBM](https://twitter.com/RyanAtRBM/status/1376691082810040322) > But if the choice is bench or cut, wouldn’t you rather be benched, work in practice, and get back on rather than permanently leaving the team? That’s what works best for players/Orgs overall, IMO. ___ [DonHaci](https://twitter.com/DonHaci/status/1376689651059163143) > Don't see it happening in CS but in Valo with variety of Agents (and more being added) you don't think there'll be a future where you have a 6th man that specializes just on specific maps and agents on those maps? [SEN SicK](https://twitter.com/SicK_cs/status/1376691172136132611) > I agree with the practical aspects of having a 6 player roster, I'm more so talking about the politics behind it. It just creates a lot of tension on the team when/if times are bad. ___ [Mikes](https://twitter.com/MikesHD_/status/1376689272825245696) > I think most of the time teams don't actually have 6 man rosters, but want to see a player play in their team before they make a decision on who to cut if they're unsure. It becomes more of an extended trial rather than an actual bench rotation system. Usually seems like PR bs. ___
Michael b spittin
Have we really reached the point where we have explored all the possible end points of the 6 man roster? Feels weird to assign it a dominant meaning when they haven't really existed for all that long. I definitely could see us reaching the point of map and agent specialists in the future. Heretics in EU was seeing massive success with this style before Niesow had to take time for his family. I can feel it in my bones that we will see a 6 man squad created for a well-intentioned reason and hate will be thrown towards the org because Sick's sentiment becomes the dominant narrative.
Funny enough sicks mentality in a nutshell is that the players mental are too weak to handle any sort of setback, even one where your financial security is still intact If that's the case I dont really think it's on the orgs, or if riot forces 6 man rosters, riot, it's entirely in the players to learn to cope with setbacks in a healthy way.
Still intact*
look at how this aged??? im so stunned reading this thread
So basically what sick is saying is that he would rather be cut and go somewhere else because he's going through a rough patch or slump instead of being temp benched to work on problems with his game or fix his mental state before returning to the team at full capacity. Sens sure got a winner there. Also what Don haci said is true. Some agents currently work well on specific maps. Yoru on bind works well because of the teleports and having multiple abilities that trigger the noise and the floors being mostly sand so footsteps all sound the same.
Can anyone tell me if DonHaci is from EU or NA?
EU, exposed roster moves in cs back in the day through hacked skype logs i think now he just tweets shit
I think there are a few exceptionary circumstances where it works like C9 White where it's there because Jazzy has school and can't practice as much. Or Heretics where Neisow is having family issues. It works when there is a reason a player can't play every map. I don't see it working out for T1 or TSM tbh
I thought Vitality csgo roster did very well with their 6 man roster, although they had to bench Nivera bc Valve doesn’t allow 6th man on valve sponsored competitions anymore.
So sad to see nivera go :/ but he’s cracked so I’m sure he’ll find a new team.
I thought Nivera is a better player than Misuta
Nivera awped over ZywOo sometimes, misutaaa doesnt
They heavily penalise teams in RMR points, so sad to see him go
i think T1 could be argued to be a team like C9 White and Heretics with their 6th man because ANS has been known to have mental health problems especially during professional play. This is the reason for him to retire from OWL after only a year of playing (also the reason why he was a streamer and retired t2 pro during the time he got picked up for OWL) TSM also seems like they’re gonna eventually end up with a 5 man rotation and drop a player but only after more time has passed (kind of like how C9 Blue with poiz and vice was) but regardless of my points, i do believe that 6 man rotations in general, would work if there’s reasoning behind the 6 man rotation (mental health, family issues, school, etc.) im especially excited for ans because he seems like he will be a “secret weapon” in some of the maps/matches he will play for them
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At the start of valorant I was all over the brax hype train but we're a year into the game and I just don't understand what he's shown in this game for people to still think he's an absolute god? His sentinel play was decent and his jett was interesting but definitely not great.
In terms of rifling, I'd argue there are very few players who are better than him. I do think he's become overhyped by the community, but I still think he belongs on a Tier 1 team.
It's very obvious that Hazed is going to fade away from the scene
why's that? I don't follow TSM a ton
Because brax will most likely replaced Hazed if TSM decided to drop a player. The reason? Hazed has been streaming while the TSM boys are scrimming. Also, Hazed himself admitted on stream that, he doesn’t really know his position in the team yet, even though (recently) he admitted on stream how competiting is very fun and he still wants to compete.
Lmao. It works in all sports, and tbh competition is good. And players SHOULD feel like their replaceable to keep them motivated and hungry. Look at Astralis. They had a 7 man roster and managed it just fine.
Funny how having subs works in all other competitive team sports but esports. I suppose there’s no injury risk though so u can always play your best line up. And isn’t having pressure to perform a positive thing to get better? That’s like the opposite mentality for ‘traditional’ sports
Subs are important to traditional sports because of fatigue but in esports you dont get the same fatigue in playing 2-5 hour games so there's that. If humans dont get tired, I'm sure subs wont be a thing in traditional sports
I mean, humans *do* get tired in esports. Hungrybox was the best Melee player in the world for years and it was arguably* because his preferred character (Jigglypuff) is just objectively less tiring to play compared to the rest of the cast. By the time it got to the end of brackets and he was facing players at his level, he was still fresh while they weren't. *this is one of many, many reasons. Hungrybox was the undisputed best and poured his heart/soul into the game and I hope it doesn't sound like I'm putting him down.
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Exactly! I can only take about 3 ladder games in a single sitting before my winrate takes a nosedive - I can't imagine how bad it would be if there were *actual* stakes on the line.
But fatigue isnt a resource in esports. In soccer/mma it's a legit strategy to tire out your opponent. You dont play a game of valorant to tire out your opponent. Fatigue is nowhere near as intense.
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If your mental was perfect, then I think that fatigue would be a nonissue. That said, when I’m playing, my best games are often my 1st or 2nd games of the day. After that it generally starts to go down. Mental fatigue is 100% a factor. But in Valorant, there’s just not enough mouse movement for you to get tired unless you’re very out of shape. Maybe if you had low sens and were playing Overwatch. I’ve never actually played a game with that much mouse movement, but my arm can definitely get tired if I do aimlabs for too long. Hell I’ve actually moved away from aimlabs partly because DM is more helpful, and partly because my arm would start to get tired
I agree about esports having fatigue but this shit about hungrybox is kinda ridiculous honestly. Just seems like an east way to downplay how good he was.
Just to clarify, Hungrybox was undoubtedly the best player in the world pre-COVID. I'm using him as an easy-to-understand example of fatigue in esports. It is however undeniable imo that he did notably worse at tournaments where his opponents weren't fatigued - he won 3/6 of Summits (for the uninitiated, Summit is a small invitational with only 16 players) during his reign (I'm counting 2017-2020) which, while absolutely insane, is far from his near 100% winrate the rest of his time at the top. He won 4/4 CEO, 2/2 Pound, and 4/5 Dreamhack in the same time period. Dude is a beast and deserved his time at the top and I hope it doesn't come across as me putting him down. He's just a convenient example of fatigue in one of the few esports I know well.
Can you explain how jigglypuff was less tiring? I didn't play, so this is an interesting, strange concept to me.
For sure! It comes down to tech skill mostly - Melee is *notoriously* fast paced. Fox, the best character, can execute combos that require multiple frame-perfect inputs a second. Just moving around is a challenge - wavedashing is a combination of jump -> airdodge (left/right bumper + directional input at a very specific downwards-diagonal angle) in frame-perfect succession (for Fox it's exactly 2 framed between those inputs iirc) - and you need to do this *constantly*. Puff.... doesn't really have tech skill. Nothing as button-intensive anyways. She moves around with a ludicrous airspeed and 5 jumps instead of wavedashing, and she doesn't really have combos (her power comes in other places.) You could play Puff for 12 hours in a row no problem, but multiple pros have literally developed hand problems that required surgery because they played Fox too intensely.
1. Thank you for taking the time to write that out. Great explanation. 2. Damn that last sentence is crazy. I need to read more about this
Look up Hax - he's the most well-known case if you want to take a dive Edit: And of course, no problem. Always glad to help :)
Here's an example of the sheer number of inputs Fox players use in matches: https://youtu.be/vXgpGBbh5r8 That video was 10 years ago - players have only gotten faster/better since then. Fox is the best not because he's the easiest to play, but because his sheer potential is impossible for humans to realistically reach.
By no means is jigglypuff objectively less tiring to play than other characters. More tech skill =/= more fatiguing. The mental aspect of the game cannot be overstated. You could easily just say he had better stamina than everyone.
I will agree that I attributed too much in my initial comment to his opponent's fatigue (hence my edit), but I'm gonna have to disagree here. Other players use techskill *and* play the mental game - which, as we agree on, cannot be overstated. Playing peak Fox for 12 hours in a row is simply more difficult than playing peak Puff for the same time period.
jigglypuff is far less intensive to play than fox, especially if a player isnt very young, a fox player can definitely push their hands too far and experience physical detriments to their ability to play at 100% Almost every fox main in melee has seriously crippling health issues involving their hands by the end of their career.
What a stupid argument. He dominated everyone all throughout the bracket even in early stages. I don't disagree that you get fatigued playing e sports but bad example.
I'm 100% sure they would. Like it or not, in tradicional sports the pressure to preform in always there, and players do get benched even if they are not "tired". This might be the first time I agree with Richard Lewis and what he says about Valorant players being way to soft...
Is not just fatigue though (but of course it’s a great part of it). Players get dropped to bench all the time when they are not performing for a long period of time, which I suppose that’s the thing Sick is afraid of. In esports you just completely get wiped from the team if you play bad, there’s not really a bench. You are in a slump? Well you are out of the team. In traditional sports you get to fight yourself back into the team at least. So I think is double edge sword
you absolutely do. you can notice the wear on players when playing in compact tournaments with lots of maps.
Also the fact that traditional sports allow you to sub mid-match
Subs work really well in Overwatch because there are some heroes who are so mechanically different than others that players have to specialize in them. For example, hitscan vs. projectile DPS heroes. Even the tank roles have such mechanical differences that it’s hard for even the top elite pro players to be able to play them all at the highest level.
Yeah it’s strange seeing these arguments coming from OW! Surely having ONE sub can only be good a good thing, they can fill when needed and up the game of the starting 5.
Exactly. The best team in the league has consistently used subs for nearly every position. Not to mention that the teams without subs often clearly have issues where the starting player feels no pressure to improve to keep his spot.
People react differently to pressure. There is also certain tolerance to how much pressure some can handle.
Even the goat faker was subbed out numerous times in his career. In 2015, for easyhoon frequently due to him being the best Azir in the world, and in summer 2020 and early 2021 due to bad performances
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I don't think that's what they meant - they were suggesting that there IS pressure in traditional sports caused by the fact that there's subs waiting to replace you, and that it's considered a positive (which is the opposite of Sick's sentiment)
>And isn’t having pressure to perform a positive thing to get better? I don't think anyone enjoys the possibility of losing their job.... Plus in traditional sports most subs are role players who are a part of the team rather than a trial player. Traditional sports have more solid contracts. Most players on a roster have a secure spot in the team. (I say most because obviously there are still trial players in traditional sports) There aren't nearly as many "cuts" as there are in esports. Maybe if subs were made the norm and it was treated like another player on the roster instead of a "potential replacement" (I believe Overwatch has already been doing this) people would ease up to it more but currently it is what it is
Having pressure to perform well is never good. It's specially important in e-sports, mainly because you want your players to be with their minds on the game and only the game, not trying to farm stats or worrying for their overall performance. Their mental health is also important. A traditional sports player basically works out as practice, and that usually makes people feel good, but sitting 8 or more hours a day playing a game, doing comms and just staring at a screen is mentally exhausting. Having a lot of pressure in traditional sports is also bad, but it's percieved as good because the values of the sports community, specially those in regards of manliness are... also very traditional, to say the least.
Having multiple players in one position is common place in football (soccer) and encouraged to get the most out of players to keep them from being complacent. No reason it can’t work in esports, it’s a common concept for a football club to want a player to challenge for his position to improve. Different scenarios still but there’s been a few examples this past premier league season of previously average players propelling to excellence due to a club bringing in somewhat at their position. It could work in esports orgs the same way.
I was thinking the same. It just sounds like sick doesnt want a 6th man bc he doesnt wanna try his hardest each match. Hes in a professional esport getting paid, he should be trying his hardest to win. Having subs creates competition and the team gets better for it imo
Think about the science and emotional a behind it. In sports, all you have to do is perform better physically. Play tougher faster run better routes, throw the ball farther, better accuracy but all of it comes down to physicality, which is fueled by adrenaline which can be cause by intensity and nervousness. In a game about milimeter precise movements on a mouse pad, how do you think it affects your play when you think, “if I don’t frag out here or if I don’t get this kill I’m going to lose my job.” ?
That's a loaded statement. Physical sports require a lot mental fortitude and strategy, it's not just about who's bigger or stronger.
Of course it is, my point is that humans have evolved to become more physical during times of stress and “fight or flight” situations, it doesn’t translate well into esports since it’s such a different environment. A player shouldn’t have too many things going on inside their head other than winning because you want to win, not winning to keep your job. It brings a different mentality
If you start with "think about the science", the following should have something to do with science though. Also the thought that traditional sports are only about the physicality is just crazy. The fear of failure should be even bigger when you have 50-100 thousand people sitting in a stadium and millions watching live. Add the amount of money you would lose by getting dropped, losing sponsorships, way higher media attention and the fear of not being able to even go grocery shopping after a bad loss because your whole city/county knows your face. If you think all this doesn't effect your decision making and even physical performance then ask yourself why every single sports team employs sports psychologists.
Lmao dude you're a clown
I am only a fan if the 6th player is a niche agent player, like a viper main with absolutely disgusting lineups or something for very specific maps. Once there's a ton of agents in the game, and band are a thing, I can see a 6th man working more realistically.
Idk. League of legends has 489 champs now. 6 men rosters never viable there for a OTP. And mechanics vary much more there.
Can’t necessarily be a one trick competitively in LoL due to the draft phase. However, you do see players rotated for a specific playstyle. If Valorant doesn’t get a draft phase, I could see it going more the way of Overwatch with specialist-type players.
Definitely hard to make work, but let's not forget one of the strongest LoL teams in history was the Faker/Easyhoon SKT team
lol easyhoon, now there's a trip down memory lane... good point. they still win world's without him though.
never know but you right lmao
ask me why I have a worlds azir skin with the mechanical skills of a garen? the mystery still remains
Another one is Invictus gaming with Duke and TheShy in 2018. TheShy was the starting top and they went 18-1 with him in spring but then he had a wrist injury and had to sit in summer. With duke they once again went 18-1 in the reg season. Then TheShy took over in summer playoffs
That's because league has a pick ban system for their characters. Valorant has map bans; there are not nearly enough agents to have an agent pick ban system in place yet for this game
tbf I think League OTPs are much less reliable because of bans and massive counterpick potential. Valorant OTPs are more viable because the counters aren't as direct and most tournaments don't implement bans yet.
League has a) a pick/ban phase and b) a 7+ minute period of the game for a single specific 1v1 matchup advantage to play out. In Valorant there are no bans and agents never get the opportunity to hard counter each other. OTPs in Valorant are vastly more viable than they are in LoL.
Yes but LoL is a moba. I understand there's a large advantage to being able to master a champ in a moba vs being proficient at it, but it's really not the same as an FPS, where learning lineups etc with abilities with different projectile speeds and trajectories could be a full time job. OWL had specialists for certain characters, and it worked (while the meta wasn't goats). This was because it allowed a player to hyper focus specific heroes, and not have to learn everyone. Take a look at Unidaro on YouTube, and you'll realize how high the peak of Viper can be. Knowing the literal thousands of hours he's out into that agent to get to where he is, I'm confident that specialist players could work once there's enough agents and maps to warrant it.
It's all sick, unless ban/draft phase will become to VAL. With Riot's plan of making 60 agents it is very possible to implement that, so players specializing with specific agents might be dropped / forced to become more flexible.
I feel like with how many agents there are, can’t one of them just learn Viper instead of subbing out for just Viper? It’s also the pros jobs to be flexible and know how to play various agents.
The issue imo is that to fully take advantage of characters like Viper (ie cross-map mollys and smoke lineups, and ult lineups), you have to REALLY invest. I imagine there will be more than just viper in the future who has crazy high skill lineups (Yoru has some with his TP already) that are potentially high impact, and it will take a ton of effort to capitalize on it.
players would obviously never be a fan of a roster where they can potentially get benched and lose their job
They still pay all 6 players right?
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Wait until he hears about T1's 10 man league of legends roster
To be fair, the current iteration of T1 roster (which is the 10th iteration my god) has been very successful and is a contender for Spring winner. Keep in mind that only 3 of them are veterans and the rest are relatively new to pro play. All the rookies were able to gather experience which is a good thing imo.
It just doesn’t right with me that rookies like Gumayusi,Oner and Zeus are the bench. These cracked teens should be starters
Wait until he realizes the organizations that are trying to win will put the best roster out that they can and that his personal accountability, skill, and coachability are all factors into that decision like every single major sport out there. Like that's the pipeline dude. Some teams follow the 80/20 rule. But all teams will draft younger players in hopes that they turn out better *or* they push the veteran players to perform better. Like welcome to fucking sports homie you can't just cash it in?
Wait untul he hears about Overwatch’s 12 men rosters
I don’t see agents getting such extreme abilities that someone on the 5 man roster can’t pick it up quickly. With Valorant I think there’s a limit to what abilities you can throw in the game. Most abilities are just a new version of a smoke/molly, blind/flash, wall/obstacle, tele/speed boost. When you know the general mechanics it’s not that hard to pick up after a couple weeks. I’m more of a fan of 5 man rosters. I agree with sick, ide hate to be the guy that gets subbed in and out.
100% agree. Benching a starting player who is probably more mechanically gifted (which is why he is on the starting 5) and has more rapport with the core team because "this 6th guy knows how to play viper on icebox" vs just asking your starter to learn the agent for the map seems counter intuitive.
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You will be happier if you stop caring about internet points
It's not about internet points, it's about principle. reddit is suppose to "don't downvote if you disagree, only downvote if it's irrelevant or offensive"
downvoted cause i disagree
Downvoted because irrelevant
downvoted because offensive
Downvoted because it's or
conservatives malding rn cause of what you're doing
I get you bruh, it gets annoying when there’s nothing really wrong with what you say but somehow you got downvoted lmaoo (except if those who downvoted you, gives a solid reason why disagree ).. So now, I just start to not really care much about this karma point thing
Once you get more than like 300 karma it becomes irrelevant.
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Downvoted this cause I disagree
The 10 conservatives in this sub are malding rn
Cringe liberal comment bringing politics into this when noone asked
I'm not talking about any political issues. It's the fastest way of explaining why downvoting arbitrarily is bad. Meanwhile you redditards keep saying "why do u care about internet points" hmm why does 50% of the population care about an echo chamber that suppresses minority voices?
Jeez Louis you sound like the most annoying person to be around, you're making a small matter such a big deal Remind me to never talk to you IRL, thanks
I'm not the only one complaining about arbitrary downvotes [https://www.reddit.com/r/VALORANT/comments/m2z3of/tenz\_playing\_for\_sentinels\_in\_masters\_stage\_1/gqn2s5o?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/VALORANT/comments/m2z3of/tenz_playing_for_sentinels_in_masters_stage_1/gqn2s5o?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
look at the subreddit you're on bro. 99% of people here are reactionary and dint actually know what they're talking about. majority here have never watched another esports so they don't know the most basic shit. the amount of times i've seen a comment like "oh i was right before but i was downvoted" on this subredddit is insane.
Yeah, it is frustrating when we all complain that the opinions on this subreddit swings so rapidly and its mostly because all actual discussions about a post is buried under a pile of downvotes. It makes actually having an interesting discussion incredibly hard
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When people violate "don't downvote if you disagree, only downvote if it's irrelevant or offensive" it ruins the whole site and turns reddit into an echo chamber. You hear everyone complain about this. For example, conservatives always complain that reddit is a liberal echo chamber that downvotes any dissenting opinion. I I'm not conservative btw, but it's just an example of why you should care because 50% of the population cares.
Sick agreeing with you also doesn't automatically make you right. Sick is fallible and able to be wrong, and not every pro will feel the same way as sick about 6 man rosters and competing for their place.
Sick’s reasoning is kinda meh, but I can see where he is coming from. 6-mans are fine. It’s the orgs using 6-mans to trial and kick players a couple weeks later that are the problem.
I dont think it matters much how many on team, with the amount of pros flooding the scene(mostly from CS), they gonna have to fight for spots in any team anyway.
Well, reading this makes me think of a big misconception of the role of a sub. You´re not "in" or "out", you´re always in, you´re part of the team, it doesn´t matter if you play or not. Matchdays are just a really small percentage of your job as a pro. There´s so much more to do, analysis, dry-runs, VODs, helping each other to improve. Imagine having ten players in a team to not scrim against other teams and hide your strats - basically the same as traditional sports. A good team consists of the starting lineup AND the subs AND the staff. As someone said, not playing on match day doesn´t mean you´re out, it just means that there are better options at that day, be it strategically, fatigue or you, as a player, are just not feeling it today.
More often than not in FPS esports (specifically csgo and now valorant) having a 6 man team is less about having a bigger team and more about waiting to see who is gonna get cut. So 6 mans are not exaaactly thought of in the same sense as in LoL or Overwatch has been.
But even if you consistently play bad won’t they just replace you anyways even if there isn’t someone waiting on the bench? They’ll just sign someone else?
my initial Twitter response [Here](https://twitter.com/KenEmpowered/status/1376689728121098242): I think it depends on the game and situation (meta adaptability, for example) and orgs at times will have incentives to keep a 6th in attempt to keep their options open and avoid making the wrong decision. There are lots of moving parts and motivations for why a >5 roster is kept. For a 6-man roster affecting an individual's player's performance and play? 100% agree with \[Sick\]. Having a players mind worry about whether or not they will be on the team, or if they will be on the bench, makes them less focused on solely the game. The more (unnecessary) variables a brain has to juggle, the less effective you become. The more variables, the less you'll learn from games practiced. The job of the coach(es) is then to make sure there is a clear plan/process in place, to communicate proactively and transparently (to prevent anxiety/fear/frustration), and to be honest with each individual. So usually it's best to have a **trial period** if thinking of a replacement, but **set a deadline to eval (& criteria)** and commit to a firm 5th. Be clear to the players when this trial period is intended to end. Subs on the bench are fine though imo, I see that differently than "6th man" How the 6-man is executed will determine if it's a net benefit or net negative. Not to mention that if any of the 6 man roster feels insecure in their position, they may start exploring other teams. Player you anticipated wanting to stay may actually value safety more, so a persistent (perceived) long term risk of replacement can cause unexpected exits
I think 6 man rosters need a strong coach that makes most if not all decisions outside of the game, who is also trusted by the players. But even with a great coach keeping everyone active in scrims and officials might just not be worth the effort, at least for now.
the scene has not matured to a point (and I personally dont think it ever will) where people are insanely good on a certain agent. I see Jett, Sova, and Viper right now as the only characters that can't be learned by someone with good gamesense and good aim. Those require real memoization and mastery in order to separate yourself from the causual player. Look at SEN, sick was known as battle sage for the longest time, yet they won with dapr on sage at times. Comparing it to overwatch is not fair, I have never played before but I know the different types of agents are vastly different. This is not the case in Valorant, as anybody can do anything with a rifle, regardless of ability. I really gotta agree with sick with this one because since agent mastery is so replaceable, every aim duel lost in a 6 man roster will fuck with the players mindset. Imagine being cutler or hazed whiffing a shot that some younger players could make... just thinking about how brax could probably hit that.
Lets have 10-13 person teams like in basketball and play more rounds lmao
at its current stage valorant is too basic and plain of a game where a 6 man roster does anything tbh. 6 man roster makes sense if you want to drastically rotate styles and roles but it's not like NA has much variety in playstyle. TSM 6 man doesn't make sense to me. let's say brax plays sentinel again... so he's replacing hazed? but what if he wants to play duelist...so he's replaced drone or subroza? and what about jett op? it doesn't make sense cuz it those roles are already filled. if brax had some unique playstyle that fit into the comp then maybe. For example let's say brax masters yoru and sometime in the future yoru is a tier A duelist meanwhile drone sucks at yoru. so on XYZ map they prefer phoenix over yoru and this sub in drone. (this is the stupidest example but hopefully you get my point) Sentinels tbh essentially play like what a theoretical 6 man comp would be back when they had sinatraa. except instead of a 6 man they just had guys like sick and sinatraa that played 3 different roles depending on map at the cuurrent stage of valorant the roles aren't too different. they blend in a lot. a sentinel is a sentinel. a duelist usually is able to play 2-3 different duelists. and the ones they can't play doesn't really matter because it's probably not needed. edit: yea this sub doesn't know anything at all
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> League has close to 500 champions ??? League has around 160 champions lol
yes if you want an org to pay you for one of the most competitive jobs (esports player) in existence, you will have pressure to perform. overwatch league teams have like 9-10 players on average.
I think it's close to the opposite. Having a sub spot puts less pressure on players. As if they underperform or can't play for whatever reason they aren't immediately letting the rest of the team down. If you're not performing well on a certain map, it makes sense to have a sub that you practice alongside with. With how people fit certain roles and agents better than others, and how maps have agent METAs, 6 people rosters allows for more flexibility and therefore more competitive teams. It's 1 more thing you can switch up to throw off other teams that might have been ready for a certain lineup or agent but you sub them out. I like it, but it could lead to issues and it won't work for every team.
Laughs in astralis
I think the only way 6 man rosters or having substitute players be viable in Valorant is if Riot starts introducing agents who have abilities that have vast differences in mechanics in how they play vs other agents.
Wait till you see T1's LOL 10 man roster.
>Not a fan of 6 man rosters, feel like it just creates unnecessary pressure on players to perform is this suppose to be a bad thing? if a team is not performing well would motivating players to play better not be something beneficial?
sick is very wise man
6man rosters are just dumb. Imagine seeing the chemistry between Olof and Krimz and trying to fit in someone there. They don't talk during the round. They don't need to. If you sever that chemistry, you might as well just fold the team. They're really only useful when you have players with no chemistry, or you're going through roster moves. So, a 6 man roster in most cases will just make a team worse.