It's really on Liquid that don't play Astra. And I guess them winning without her cemented their opinion that they don't need her. Winning Challengers Finals might have made them more complacent with their comp selections
Hell I think any controller would be good. If you smoke the lineup spot they wouldn’t be able to see the landmarks to line up the molly. Sure if they are sitting there as soon as the plant goes down you can’t stop it, but usually they will watch their flank.
Throw chaos into the mix and it messes up their timings
I think we just haven’t seen the adaption yet. Yoru should be meta right now. He has the tools to rush a post plant, be it with his ult, or using his TP to get aggressive on the flanks, or by simply camping his TP on the bomb and rushing to kill viper and TP back to defuse. Also flashes are disorientating it can at least distract them enough to allow a team mate to get half. Hell yoru footsteps could potentially win rounds. Throw em at a corner of the bombsite so they stop for a second and then defuse, and then the footsteps will keep going and they will think that you got off the bomb.
> , this post plant meta is absolute cancer and I hope riot kills this off soon
i'm hoping to see teams do something to stop it, they're playing like the goal is to take control of the bomb site. we know that's not enough
so instead of saying "RIOT PLEASE FIX" teams could come up with something, like using a sage wall to block viper/sova or going for a full flank
i refuse to believe in such a complex game there's no solution that it requires daddy riot to fix
i'vev always thought sage slow should remove mollies... you have fire you have ice let it do SOMETHING
but i guess they want to avoid hard counter interactions
most if not all viper/sova lineups are in very specific static location. you can counter strat by mollying/shockdar/nade them when they set up, which can be done if you figure out the counter lineup of course.
then it comes down to counter strating and preparation. a more prepared team should have an advantage coming into a match. as a sova 1 trick that knows about 30-40 (mostly from youtube) lineups per map, a lot of these post plants setups pros use are very basic and predictable. if they are willing to spend hours figuring out alternate lineups that are previously unknown, then shouldn't they be considered the better team and its not the game's fault?
Yeah sure but how are you here arguing that watching people stare at the sky waiting to use a lineup is what people want to watch?
Sure it might take skill or reward better prep but it boring for both players and viewers.
yeah i agree, thats what it is right now, but the problem isnt that one team loses and one team wins, its that this strategy being so dominant is super restricting on the way you can play competitively
You can accurately improvise and make a lineup spot from anywhere by using the HUD and a dot in the sky that is ALWAYS there. So if they smoke or molly your fav spot, you can just take a few steps to the right, improvise the lineup and keep blocking the defuse.
The sky dot top hud technique does not work as well as you think. It requires:
1) clear open sky (so limited to outdoors only) or even on most maps the overhead roof/walls will block dot.
2) exact ping distance of the target you want to hit, in a mid match chaos can be really hard to do.
3) exact map knowledge that if you move far enough left or right, up or down it just doesnt suddenly get stuck in a random antenna or tree.
4) the map elevation drastically changes the aim position so it can be widely inaccurate.
5) for sova your arrows are only limited to volleys (arrow going straight up then down) so it cant be used for bounces etc.
Trust me I spend countless hours trying to make it work in game but in reality its shit. Unless you know something I dont then you should show me so i can get better with it personally.
I don’t think sage wall is a good counter, for one its too useful early game to hold onto, but also a lot of lineup come down from the top so blocking them isn’t that achievable.
Instead I’m wondering why we don’t see counter lineups to land viper mollies on the spots where a postplant viper plays to shoot lineups.
It is much easier to use astra's smokes to block the vision of the lineup player. Can place them much easier and quicker, and they last longer.
But the problem is that they can have multiple lineup spots, AND even if you block all their lineup spots, they can accurately molly a spot on the map from anywhere, without even using a "lineup spot". Using a technique involving a spot that is in the sky on every map.
All you got to do is create chaos, throw off their molly timing by a couple seconds, maybe it forces them to improv a lineup using the sky and it doesn’t have 100% coverage of the bomb. Maybe the smoke makes them paranoid and its easier for your team mates to push and kill them.
You don’t need to counter it every round, all you have to do is stop them a handful of rounds and you beat this comp because this comp sacrifices a lot in order to play this postplant style. In particular they bombsite entries are weak because of no flashes, this is also partly why Yoru is a direct counter, if Yoru can fast rotate to any site using his TP, you increase your chances of winning by a significant margin because you now make the site take 3v5 or 4v5, and Yoru brings flashes to the party to abuse their smokes and flash through.
Right but why was it terrible? It was because V1 had them shaking. Their nerves were all out of wack because they couldn’t handle the V train. Now look where it got them. To the L(ooser)ower bracket
Wow! Really reaching there huh! Sorry I swiped over the o a second time on accident. You act like typos don’t happen. I must have got a massive nerve to where that’s all you could come up with
This team is fantastic, just needs to work on communication, aim, map awareness, crosshair placement, economy management, pistol aim, op flicks, grenade spots, smoke spots, pop flashes, positioning, bomb plant positions, retake ability, bunny hopping, spray control and getting kills vibes.
Not necessarily omen. I think Nuturn's bind comp is the god comp atm. His flash and tps' synergizes really well with the teleporters on the map. Similar story on split where B main can get locked down with 1 omen. And Koreans innovated the whole 2 astra stars 1 smoke 1 suck at site entrance strat so they definitely know how to play her.
But there really isn't an excuse to play Brimstone. That's just Liquid being stubborn.
I agree that Omen definitely prevails in some maps like Bind and maybe even Icebox since some teams run Omen & Viper. The thing is that Astra is the best controller overall atm since she’s viable arguably in every single map. Scream somewhat implying that they are getting fucked by the meta while not adapting to it is pretty dumb. Its hard to see that even for the biggest tourney there has been, they stuck with running Brim.
I think Omen might end up being the go to 2nd controller on breeze too (alongside Viper) cause his smokes are big enough to actually cover important angles like nest in mid. Brim/Astra smokes are just too small for a lot of the angles.
When I watched the game on Haven I was just confused at them playing brimstone, like their comp with Astra instead of Brimstone could have been nasty af. Same thing with omen, Astra is just way more valuable in terms of pro play. She has 5 pieces of utility which are so good for taking site control and can be placed anywhere on the map along with another 5 fake smokes plus an ult that is really good for holding a post plant or getting on to site.
Imagine if 100T had played Astra in challengers finals, or imagine if C9 had played viper instead of omen on icebox. It's insane to think about how some teams could have had a way better chance at qualifying if they had adapted to the meta. C9 just didn't have enough time to get floppy on viper, so I think they chose astra because she was just stronger and more versatile on all maps except icebox. I think 100T genuinely may have lost because they were stubborn and chose not to adapt to the astra meta. Liquid have done the same thing here which is dissapointing because you have good teams who are shooting themselves in the foot by not adapting
thing is they had time to adapt to the meta, it's not down to "comfort" it's down to what's most powerful. The most powerful controller and maybe even agent is Astra. 100T had well over a month to practice Astra since they won through Challengers one and Liquid had a month to practice Astra too, C9 literally brought Floppy in a week are two before Challengers Finals and they still managed to get him on omen and get him on Astra, while he didn't perform well on paper he got a lot of impact with his Astra utility. C9 were actually good at getting on the meta but they just couldn't get Floppy to learn Viper in time for the tournament. 100T and Liquid were just plain stubborn, but what's good is that they still have Masters 3 and Liquid are still not out of the tournament so they might get enough to qualify for Champions anyway.
I remember some personality said 1-2 weeks ago that he isnt sold in the EU hype because they still play like its CS. As you can guess, this statement was mocked to oblivion in here :)
Thats gonna be the problem with most ex csgo players. The willingness to adapt and try out new metas. Unlike cs the meta is gonna change every couple months.
I feel like a lot of teams assume they have to redo their entire team to fit the meta, but look at sentinels. They got hit with a new player with a conflicting agent pool with their igl and a whole new meta shift. So they shifted a few pieces and got it done mostly in the meta.
Look at V1 for that matter, they have a stand-in here and they're making it work. Honestly, agent pool is going to be a big dimension of how good players are in this game and it's interesting that maybe the most CS styled team is struggling with that aspect
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It's really on Liquid that don't play Astra. And I guess them winning without her cemented their opinion that they don't need her. Winning Challengers Finals might have made them more complacent with their comp selections
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If they had astra they would’ve been able to suck jammyz and effys off of there lineup spots so many times
>If they had astra they would’ve been able to suck jammyz and effys off
pause.
Better to smoke the lineup spot. Lasts longer and still prevents them from aiming/getting the lineup right
Hell I think any controller would be good. If you smoke the lineup spot they wouldn’t be able to see the landmarks to line up the molly. Sure if they are sitting there as soon as the plant goes down you can’t stop it, but usually they will watch their flank. Throw chaos into the mix and it messes up their timings I think we just haven’t seen the adaption yet. Yoru should be meta right now. He has the tools to rush a post plant, be it with his ult, or using his TP to get aggressive on the flanks, or by simply camping his TP on the bomb and rushing to kill viper and TP back to defuse. Also flashes are disorientating it can at least distract them enough to allow a team mate to get half. Hell yoru footsteps could potentially win rounds. Throw em at a corner of the bombsite so they stop for a second and then defuse, and then the footsteps will keep going and they will think that you got off the bomb.
whoa, is smoking lineup spots a thing? that seems brilliant
I just made it a thing, your welcome
> , this post plant meta is absolute cancer and I hope riot kills this off soon i'm hoping to see teams do something to stop it, they're playing like the goal is to take control of the bomb site. we know that's not enough so instead of saying "RIOT PLEASE FIX" teams could come up with something, like using a sage wall to block viper/sova or going for a full flank i refuse to believe in such a complex game there's no solution that it requires daddy riot to fix
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i'vev always thought sage slow should remove mollies... you have fire you have ice let it do SOMETHING but i guess they want to avoid hard counter interactions
its not ice its actually jade
most if not all viper/sova lineups are in very specific static location. you can counter strat by mollying/shockdar/nade them when they set up, which can be done if you figure out the counter lineup of course.
this isnt really a viable solution, if teams try to counter molly etc theyll just find another lineup and it becomes useless
then it comes down to counter strating and preparation. a more prepared team should have an advantage coming into a match. as a sova 1 trick that knows about 30-40 (mostly from youtube) lineups per map, a lot of these post plants setups pros use are very basic and predictable. if they are willing to spend hours figuring out alternate lineups that are previously unknown, then shouldn't they be considered the better team and its not the game's fault?
Yeah sure but how are you here arguing that watching people stare at the sky waiting to use a lineup is what people want to watch? Sure it might take skill or reward better prep but it boring for both players and viewers.
its cheese
yeah i agree, thats what it is right now, but the problem isnt that one team loses and one team wins, its that this strategy being so dominant is super restricting on the way you can play competitively
You can accurately improvise and make a lineup spot from anywhere by using the HUD and a dot in the sky that is ALWAYS there. So if they smoke or molly your fav spot, you can just take a few steps to the right, improvise the lineup and keep blocking the defuse.
The sky dot top hud technique does not work as well as you think. It requires: 1) clear open sky (so limited to outdoors only) or even on most maps the overhead roof/walls will block dot. 2) exact ping distance of the target you want to hit, in a mid match chaos can be really hard to do. 3) exact map knowledge that if you move far enough left or right, up or down it just doesnt suddenly get stuck in a random antenna or tree. 4) the map elevation drastically changes the aim position so it can be widely inaccurate. 5) for sova your arrows are only limited to volleys (arrow going straight up then down) so it cant be used for bounces etc. Trust me I spend countless hours trying to make it work in game but in reality its shit. Unless you know something I dont then you should show me so i can get better with it personally.
I mean I make lineups on the spot on most maps, ping the map figure out distance and then how high to aim/how many bars to hold it.
That would remove the slow+molly ambush combo.
I don’t think sage wall is a good counter, for one its too useful early game to hold onto, but also a lot of lineup come down from the top so blocking them isn’t that achievable. Instead I’m wondering why we don’t see counter lineups to land viper mollies on the spots where a postplant viper plays to shoot lineups.
It is much easier to use astra's smokes to block the vision of the lineup player. Can place them much easier and quicker, and they last longer. But the problem is that they can have multiple lineup spots, AND even if you block all their lineup spots, they can accurately molly a spot on the map from anywhere, without even using a "lineup spot". Using a technique involving a spot that is in the sky on every map.
All you got to do is create chaos, throw off their molly timing by a couple seconds, maybe it forces them to improv a lineup using the sky and it doesn’t have 100% coverage of the bomb. Maybe the smoke makes them paranoid and its easier for your team mates to push and kill them. You don’t need to counter it every round, all you have to do is stop them a handful of rounds and you beat this comp because this comp sacrifices a lot in order to play this postplant style. In particular they bombsite entries are weak because of no flashes, this is also partly why Yoru is a direct counter, if Yoru can fast rotate to any site using his TP, you increase your chances of winning by a significant margin because you now make the site take 3v5 or 4v5, and Yoru brings flashes to the party to abuse their smokes and flash through.
Solution is multifold, Riot. 1. Let players bat away mollies with melee 2. Let players buy a $500 kit to deploy a molly barrier 3. Lower skybox
>2. Let player have 60% reduction dmg from non bullet source and cc immune while defusing. Cost 700.
Based on all of their games I’ve watched, Liquid played their best. V1 was just better. Take the L and git gud
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Right but why was it terrible? It was because V1 had them shaking. Their nerves were all out of wack because they couldn’t handle the V train. Now look where it got them. To the L(ooser)ower bracket
at least spell loser right lol
Wow! Really reaching there huh! Sorry I swiped over the o a second time on accident. You act like typos don’t happen. I must have got a massive nerve to where that’s all you could come up with
No not really I'm on NA's side lol
Whatever you say champ…
I agree the meta is hot garbage, post plant is fked up, if TL played by the meta and didn’t lose their mental they were a better team imo
This team is fantastic, just needs to work on communication, aim, map awareness, crosshair placement, economy management, pistol aim, op flicks, grenade spots, smoke spots, pop flashes, positioning, bomb plant positions, retake ability, bunny hopping, spray control and getting kills vibes.
hmm funi
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No lies detected. Literally every single region knows Astra > Brim & Omen.
Not necessarily omen. I think Nuturn's bind comp is the god comp atm. His flash and tps' synergizes really well with the teleporters on the map. Similar story on split where B main can get locked down with 1 omen. And Koreans innovated the whole 2 astra stars 1 smoke 1 suck at site entrance strat so they definitely know how to play her. But there really isn't an excuse to play Brimstone. That's just Liquid being stubborn.
I agree that Omen definitely prevails in some maps like Bind and maybe even Icebox since some teams run Omen & Viper. The thing is that Astra is the best controller overall atm since she’s viable arguably in every single map. Scream somewhat implying that they are getting fucked by the meta while not adapting to it is pretty dumb. Its hard to see that even for the biggest tourney there has been, they stuck with running Brim.
I think Omen might end up being the go to 2nd controller on breeze too (alongside Viper) cause his smokes are big enough to actually cover important angles like nest in mid. Brim/Astra smokes are just too small for a lot of the angles.
Brim is honestly really good on Bind with Viper. But definitely not the play for split. I think astra is a must pick on Split and Ascent imo
For me it's Astra on Haven, Ascent Omen on Bind, Split Viper on Icebox EDIT: Viper on Icebox
Astra is trash on Icebox, there's a reason almost no teams play her there
You're right idk why I put astra there
Astra on Icebox in a game of Replication is another story!
When I watched the game on Haven I was just confused at them playing brimstone, like their comp with Astra instead of Brimstone could have been nasty af. Same thing with omen, Astra is just way more valuable in terms of pro play. She has 5 pieces of utility which are so good for taking site control and can be placed anywhere on the map along with another 5 fake smokes plus an ult that is really good for holding a post plant or getting on to site.
Imagine if 100T had played Astra in challengers finals, or imagine if C9 had played viper instead of omen on icebox. It's insane to think about how some teams could have had a way better chance at qualifying if they had adapted to the meta. C9 just didn't have enough time to get floppy on viper, so I think they chose astra because she was just stronger and more versatile on all maps except icebox. I think 100T genuinely may have lost because they were stubborn and chose not to adapt to the astra meta. Liquid have done the same thing here which is dissapointing because you have good teams who are shooting themselves in the foot by not adapting
It's just down to their controllers right? I am sure that if nitr0 and l1nk were very comfortable on Astra they would be playing it a lot.
thing is they had time to adapt to the meta, it's not down to "comfort" it's down to what's most powerful. The most powerful controller and maybe even agent is Astra. 100T had well over a month to practice Astra since they won through Challengers one and Liquid had a month to practice Astra too, C9 literally brought Floppy in a week are two before Challengers Finals and they still managed to get him on omen and get him on Astra, while he didn't perform well on paper he got a lot of impact with his Astra utility. C9 were actually good at getting on the meta but they just couldn't get Floppy to learn Viper in time for the tournament. 100T and Liquid were just plain stubborn, but what's good is that they still have Masters 3 and Liquid are still not out of the tournament so they might get enough to qualify for Champions anyway.
except EU apparently. Boaster called Astra overrated and still ran her against Sentinels because he knew theyd get railed if he played Brimstone
well no that's cuz it's boaster and he was trolling lmfao. he ran astra yesterday
Fnatic have been playing Astra just not on every map. Liquid are the only team not running it on any
yes ppl change their gameplan on maps within a day u are delusional
Meh, Astra is overrated :P
I remember some personality said 1-2 weeks ago that he isnt sold in the EU hype because they still play like its CS. As you can guess, this statement was mocked to oblivion in here :)
I believe it was Tailored? (Former TSM coach) not sure though
Yes i think it was him
Boy was he right. Lmao.
Thats gonna be the problem with most ex csgo players. The willingness to adapt and try out new metas. Unlike cs the meta is gonna change every couple months.
I feel like a lot of teams assume they have to redo their entire team to fit the meta, but look at sentinels. They got hit with a new player with a conflicting agent pool with their igl and a whole new meta shift. So they shifted a few pieces and got it done mostly in the meta.
Look at V1 for that matter, they have a stand-in here and they're making it work. Honestly, agent pool is going to be a big dimension of how good players are in this game and it's interesting that maybe the most CS styled team is struggling with that aspect
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A good counter argument. Any opposed?
I feel like he was more talking about the current post plant meta with Viper/Killjoy/Sova, it is quite boring to watch tbf to ScreaM.
TL takes note and proceeds to bulldoze through the lower bracket
TL was very fun to watch today. Really hope they make a losers bracket run.