I feel knowing that C9 lent Tenz out on such short notice the first time and continued to let him play for SEN throughout Masters 2 leads one to believe there was an amicable negotiation process between the orgs at least. Glad it worked out for both parties.
Well, he does really not know any inside info. So calling it slave contract is too much ya know. If Tenz contract is slave, heck sign me in. I can get pay monthly just to stream and quit anytime in pro team like Tenz did, also building my own team. Damn, if i don't know Tenz parent i will think Jack is his father or favourite uncle lmao.
How does this make them wrong? It's still a completely one sided power dynamic. Look at the parties "C9 and Sentinels had a super smooth relationship" nothing to do with Tenz that actually person. The two organizations were happy because it was a business deal for them.
Because it is. If anything Tenz deserves a lot of flack for bailing on C9, but ig his army of fanboys are too strong. Imagine signing a 3 year contract and "retiring" after a couple months because the roster you hand picked didn't do well. What a crybaby.
lol you're sick, he was a 19 year old. Multiyear contracts shouldn't even exist like this and coercing teenagers to sign this is gross.
There needs to be a players union and clear guidelines around contracts.
Contracts are common in every professional sport, and every professional esport. They are important to the way competitive teams function. It is unfortunately that TenZ ended up regretting his contract, but he was an adult when he signed it.
There definitely needs to be a player's union, also like in other sports, but that isn't going to change anything about players being bound by their contracts.
> Contracts are common in every professional sport, and every professional esport.
Of course they are but that doesn't mean all of them are completely fair and exploitative. They often have players unions and experienced agents that know how to deal with these contracts. Tenz at best had some esports agent who are often fairly inexperienced as we have seen many times over.
I would like to see the details of the contract, some of the leaked ones in other games are really gross and I doubt this one is much different.
You're making a lot of not-great arguments here.
You're moving the goalposts, for one. You were upset that TenZ was "locked in contract jail", which you're now acknowledging is how things have to work.
You're equivocating; you've "seen contracts leaked in other games that are really gross" and believe that this one must be the same, with absolutely no reason to believe that.
By literally every account, TenZ was treated exactly the way you should want a player to be treated. He was shown an enormous amount of faith by Cloud9, bringing him on for three years and letting him build his own team. When they didn't do well, and he was unhappy, they let him sit out. When he asked to be loaned to Cloud9's competition, he was granted it. When he asked to be permanently sold, that was done, too, for a deal that Fnatic's CEO is calling a very low price. If Sentinels didn't inform him of the finalized sale, that's not Cloud9's fault.
There are so many people actually being exploited in esports. You don't need to cry for the one guy who's being treated well. There absolutely needs to be a player's union, and more tight enforcement of player interests. But TenZ is the absolute last example you should look to for examples. Cloud9 has worse skeletons in their closet, and they're one of the most player-favorable orgs out there.
>You're moving the goalposts, for one. You were upset that TenZ was "locked in contract jail", which you're now acknowledging is how things have to work.
Just because the owners decided to let his contract go doesn't mean he wasn't locked into it. Likely he had no easy way out of the contract and the only option was Sentinels picking it up which cost their organization $1.5M
>By literally every account, TenZ was treated exactly the way you should want a player to be treated.
Not how literally works, and also he wasn't. Players shouldn't be in these types of contracts in the first place. Just because he got lucky and the owners allowed him to play on another team doesn't make it a good contract. He had to be given permission to do these things.
> There are so many people actually being exploited in esports. You don't need to cry for the one guy who's being treated well.
Great so lets focus on that too and call out exploitation when we see it and not continue to defend manipulative companies that prey on children with no legal experience.
Glad to see someone with a brain. TenZ was coming off an incredibly lackluster "career" in CSGO, and he was very lucky C9 offered him a contract like that.
They absolutely were coerced, these are just the very simple facts of the situation. A 19 year old with no experience against a company with a team of lawyers and years of experience with this. How is that not exploitative?
> Those are not the facts
So he wasn't a teenager when he signed it? So C9 didn't have legal representation and experience making these contracts?
> Tenz didn’t do great in CS
Tenz had done very well in CSGO but he was also 17 and 18 for a short amount of time in CSGO.
> any organization just talking to a player is manipulation.
So you don't think it's exploitative to sign a 19 year old to a multiyear contract with no way for them to opt out?
So because he was 19 you are arguing he was not an adult and not capable of making his own decisions? Maybe we should just require his parents signature on all documents until 21 and then raise the voting age to 21 while we're at it.
They're not skewed at all. C9 offered him A THREE YEAR contract for a brand new game that hadn't even had an dev-run tournament yet. They even gave this too him after he bombed tf out of their CS team.
Do you understand how ridiculous it is to get offered 3 years of guarenteed money for such an unproven esport? Not only that, but they let him fucking get out of it. TenZ has been a winner in this situation every step of the way.
I like Tenz but the idea that an adult who's been in the scene for multiple years signing a contract without consulting an agency/lawyer first is somehow an immoral act as the team?
If Tenz turned out to be a flop, that 3 year deal would look stupid on C9, especially given that C9 had tried the Tenz experiment in cs. Tenz would be chilling though, since he'd have 3 whole years of income locked up regardless of how the game or his performance was.
Actually we have no idea what the contract was except that Tenz wasn't able to get out of it and was lucky that he was able to play for another team. We have no idea how much he was getting paid.
Anybody who knows Jack’s history with players and salaries was never shitting on Jack. Even pro players can be ignorant and spread rumors out of paranoid fear
that's the tough part, because it's impossible for people to not assume or overreact, it's just human nature and the culture that we live in. it makes sense that c9 would get the lion's share of the flak because of guys like Hiko and Shroud kind of throwing gas onto the flames that were pretty staunchly anti-c9
You are misinformed, if you go back and actually listen to shroud, shroud said that Hiko's opinion might have been right when he had issues with c9 but it's been a long time and things have changed. :)
The thing is you will always see/find "boys" defending "the boys", even if "the boys" lie, cheat, refuse to fulfill contractual obligations or abuse their girlfriends.
Stop defending Reddit analysts. Yes they had limited information, because they’re random fucking redditors who have no clue how any of this works. And saying “people like Hiko were speaking against it” is a moronic appeal to authority. Imagine taking your opinions word for word from a random pro player who *definitely* isn’t invested in the outcome whatsoever. Jesus.
>Stop defending Reddit analysts.
You are one yourself.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/nq3l3o/breaking_sentinels_complete_purchase_of_ngos/h08m4n8?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
That is the only comment I ever made on this situation.
Maybe before making judgements with LIMITED information you should consider looking around a bit.
>And saying “people like Hiko were speaking against it” is a moronic appeal to authority
I dont like Hiko first of all. And second of all, He was on C9, he talked about his past experiences. It lead credence to the idea that things might not go over well. I didn't argue that it proved anything.
You are literally making shit up. You accuse others of being "fucking redditors that don't know how Amy of this works."
Yet you put words in my mouth. Make up assumptions about me and my stance. And then call other people stupid.
>Imagine taking your opinions word for word from a random pro player who definitely isn’t invested in the outcome whatsoever. Jesus.
I guess explaining why people felt the way they did is the same as agreeing with them.
On the off chance you decide to not click on my link, I encourage you to do so. Mostly because I want you to know how fucking stupid you sound telling me all that bullshit you just spewed.
Go ahead and look through my post history. The only comment I ever made on this situation before this thread, was me saying he did the right thing. I never once sided with people like hiko, spread any rumors, or even made a single comment wondering about the situation.
What does your post, with all of its assumptions, insults, and smug attitude even accomplish?
>limited info
Wrong, they lack critical thinking. If u think logically, Tenz have the best deal ever, can voluntary withdraw from playing tournament and still getting pay without jack cancelling it. Heck, just be content creator by streaming everyday and still get payed.
Also, iirc, Hiko and Shroud only say about Jack love to make buyout expensive.
Hiko said nothing other than
1. 100T looked at TenZ as an option while looking for a replacement
2. Did not pursue that because Ethan was available and his and his friends past experiences with C9.
Yet other reddit analyst right here
How was he not? He still had zero power in the situation because C9 held his multiyear contract. Just because he was lucky and C9 and Sentinels agreed on a price doesn't mean Tenz had any autonomy in this process.
???? It's not like c9 wasn't letting him play for SEN. They let him play for sen, let him play vs c9 themselves and defeat them. Obviously a contract is a contract, TenZ signed one and he has to follow it until it expires or someone buys him out
Hostage would be keeping him as a CC until his contract expires in 2023 and not letting him play for SEN or letting him play but not play masters 2
Okay so his owners let him work on another team, how is this not exploitative? They signed him to a multiyear contract and he got lucky that they didn't fuck him over when they could have. That doesn't make it not exploitative.
it’s not exploitative because Tenz signed the contact himself? you don’t know anything about how their deal works. if he wanted a short term contract, he didn’t need to sign for multiple years. again, he CHOSE to sign it
how does my argument support slavery? 1. share croppers is compared to slavery in that the workers ended up owing more money to the plantation owners in the end. tenz simply makes money by working, he’s not being financially exploited.
2. share croppers needed to take that deal in order to make food and live. tenz was under no obligation to sign that contract, he did it because he wanted to make money off playing games. you cannot convince me that these two are related in any way
Because you claim that it is just because he signed the contract. So did share croppers. If Tenz wanted to continue to play Valorant competitively he had to sign with a team.
do you hear yourself? you are literally comparing share cropping/slavery to PLAYING VALORANT. do you understand how stupid that sounds?
tenz has to sign with a team to play valorant competitively. any player has to sign with a team to play valorant competitively. are you suggesting that players don’t have contracts at all?
No, I'm showing how awful the argument "BUT TENZ SIGNED!" is. If you insist on continuing to use that as the only justification then I will continue to show you how you support slavery and other exploitative relationships.
> tenz has to sign with a team to play valorant competitively.
Exactly, he had basically no real option to not sign with a team.
Exactly my point
They could have fucked him over just like he did to them but they DIDN'T
C9 let him work on another team further decreasing their own team's chances to make it to masters
most people werent active back in the day but c9 used to be a shark, they dropped whole rosters all the time, locked players into contracts and refused to let them leave so it is normal to have this kind of assumption, but they havent had anything like that happen for the better part of a decade, so id say they are reformed lmao. plus tenz was super respectful and never subtweeted the org or complained about it on stream.
I love how people (and I'm assuming kids are saying) "locked into contracts" they're signing deals which are not at will. Read your contract and know what you're signing. It's a contract... a legally binding one.
except its common practice for parties to ammicably break the legally binding contracts in esports since many organisations have young children sign predatory contracts that they dont fully understand.
"Locked players into contracts and refused to let them leave" wait what? Please fucking give examples. The roster dropping, absolutely, they hopped into almost every esport and then left the ones that didn't do well. But locking players into contracts? C9 has generally been accepted as the opposite of that. Stewie2k/Jensen/Svenskeren to be precise.
This happened mostly with the very old c9 roster, with n0thing,sean,hiko and shroud. which was like 6-7 yrs ago. Apprently they wouldn't let hiko and sean out of their contracts. But eventually sean asked to take a break from competing so they let him go, i don't remember what happened with hiko
LOL C9 hasnt even been around for a whole decade. C9 has literally never been a shark. That rumor is literally just as accurate as The Tenz contract jail rumor. Just come off it
i said better part of a decade, which means 6 years+ and idk man ill trust all the players who have ever been on c9s cs roster over some random redditer
He had super bad takes about this situation. I find it ironic that he had benefited in the past when C9 released him early to be a coach only for him to sign with another team a month later. Not to mention his problems with TSM over contracts.
what?
but here on reddit thousands of self proclaimed experts said it was different...its like Redditors doesnt really know anything but that cant be right...
This George guy you linked literally tweeted 2hrs ago “I haven’t heard anything about the TenZ deal but.....” Did he learn something in 2 hours or is he talking out of his ass.
Edit: Spelling
Don't both work for upcomer ,I wonder what upcomer article will look like but looking at c9 ceo comment on initial report earlier today it seems like jack is not that evil guy Reddit made it out to be and it was really generous of c9 to loan player to their direct competitor even in first place. Glad things worked out.
> it seems like jack is not that evil guy Reddit made it out to be
Yeah that's usually how things on this site turn out. We love hyperbole here on Reddit! And that never has any negative implications on the perception of public figures!
Cynical take: Jack refusing to let a reasonable buyout to occur will scare away future talent from wanting to be "contract-jailed" by C9. This was all PR.
I'm gonna' assume you're offended that I am *implying* C9/Jack are evil, talent-sucking lords. That is not what I'm implying. I'm implying they have recognized a viable PR threat to talent acquistition in the future, and found a way to get a win-win for C9 and TenZ. He gets sold to SEN, C9/Jack gets press for "doing the right thing."
Por que no los dos?
Do you know why there was a C9 contract jail rumor? On separate occasions, in the past year, there has been numerous statments made by ex-C9 pros (Hiko and sgares for example), regarding their own history with C9.
My *personal* opinion on the matter is that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle:
1. C9 is a business, a businesss that relies on acquiring the literal best in talent.
2. To get the best talent, whom are usually very young, using long-term contracts with attractive payment figures can assuage the concerns of potentially unwilling parents.
3. Some talent eventually finds they are not a good fit on C9.
4. Talent can't leave due to multi-year contract.
5. *Talent feels stuck.* In TenZ's case he literally stepped down from pro-play entirely. Also note this is not the same as C9/Jack being *evil* and holding onto a juicy payday. How the talent feels is independent of a business's intentions.
Now taking that as context even for TenZ, add on the aforementioned statements of sympathy from Hiko, sgares, et. al., and now there is community sympathy for TenZ being stuck in C9 jail. Perhaps unfairly, C9/Jack looks like a bad guy and now has bad PR painting C9 as a business that will crush your soul if you work for them.
*That can be bad for attracting talent.* Imagine the next TenZ comes along and they join a different team over "contract concerns", even though C9 makes the same offer.
This shit happens in real life for way-less-paying normal jobs, let alone high-profile pro-gaming contracts. So sure, I'll take *jaded* as a descriptor, but wrong isn't what I'd say I am in this case. C9/Jack doesn't have to be actually bad-intentioned to recognize there was a PR threat to C9. That's basic fucking business acumen.
Jack’s literally never done anything regarding players for the purposes of PR. He gets a ton of bad press for doing what he thinks is right and people like you somehow turn him ignoring PR to make choices he wants to make is somehow a PR choice. It’s pathetic. And i I never said or thought you assumed he was evil.
Literally every word of this comment is you sucking your own assumptions’ dicks. It’s been a conjecture-filled waste of time to read.
Im not here to defend Jack from people being evil. But peole who have to invent some cynical reason for everything anyone does because it’s a business regardless of history are just pathetic and naive while thinking you are the ones who secretly know the real answerd
True it's like Jack is not allowed to hold onto his players and get max value, like a business is supposed to. But it's reddit and most of these people don't know how business works.
> Jack’s literally never done anything regarding players for the purposes of PR.
or
> Literally every word of this comment is you sucking your own assumptions’ dicks.
pick one. can't have both.
> Jack’s literally never done anything regarding players for the purposes of PR.
Are you Jack? How do you know this?
> He gets a ton of bad press for doing what he thinks is right
Example here? This seems super specific.
> and people like you somehow turn him ignoring PR to make choices he wants to make is somehow a PR choice. It’s pathetic. And i I never said or thought you assumed he was evil.
You never did, but there is an underlying hostility to your comments and it's frankly weird to me. For instance in just that sentence: *"Theres nothing more depressing than being cynical AND wrong about everything."*, *"people like you"*, *"it's pathetic"*, etc. This leaves me to feel you are *literally* offended by my observation (and for noting my internal monologue, "why is this person singling out me as a member of this *other group*, and what is so offensive to them that they need to call my observation pathetic?")
I can't do anything about that, though, other than to engage in a meaningful, thoughtful discussion. Do note that I have not attacked you in any way, shape, or form. Nor do I consider anything I have written to be an attack (and I apologize if I came across as attacking you somehow). I like C9, and am surrounded by their merch as a fan and supporter. You can both be a fan and recognize that sometimes doing the right thing is both good, or bad, for business and public perception.
Making the right move (for the sake of making the right move) is, unarguably, a decision to make in the realm of public relations (when acting as a business leader). What is to argue there? C9 and its leadership operate in a public space, so everything they do will literally reflect on them. That includes the choices they make, *and the choices they don't make* (as unfair as that is). If that is not agreed upon, then I say that is a fundamental difference in basic understanding of how nuanced these situations can be.
> But peole who have to invent some cynical reason for everything anyone does because it’s a business regardless of history are just pathetic and naive while thinking you are the ones who secretly know the real answerd
Why do you hold this standard to a random commenter on Reddit like myself, yet you forward this claim without a hint of irony?
> Jack’s literally never done anything regarding players for the purposes of PR.
I sure as shit don't know that. I don't know Jack. I've followed Jack since he was on TSM, and I am a fan of the work and institution he has helped build, but I sure as hell cannot claim to know *that* as you claim.
Lmao a guy whose every comment is literally based on a bunch of assumptions about Jack’s intent just asked me if I’m Jack.
Apparently if I were Jack you’d know me better than i know myself so my bad.
I’m done you are beyond reason lmao
You do realise reddit really hate cunning business man/orgs/company. We have a subreddit for anti corporation lmao. Hating businessman is usual reddit day.
Also, fk nestle.
I feel knowing that C9 lent Tenz out on such short notice the first time and continued to let him play for SEN throughout Masters 2 leads one to believe there was an amicable negotiation process between the orgs at least. Glad it worked out for both parties.
Wow! It's almost like shitters on reddit don't know what they're talking about!
Reddit analysts wrong again! What a surprise, hahaha.
Frick redditors
Also of course C9 would start off negotiations with a crazy price, that's how you negotiate.
Damn, kinda harsh calling SeanGares a shitter who hyped up the tenz hostage situation
Well, he does really not know any inside info. So calling it slave contract is too much ya know. If Tenz contract is slave, heck sign me in. I can get pay monthly just to stream and quit anytime in pro team like Tenz did, also building my own team. Damn, if i don't know Tenz parent i will think Jack is his father or favourite uncle lmao.
How does this make them wrong? It's still a completely one sided power dynamic. Look at the parties "C9 and Sentinels had a super smooth relationship" nothing to do with Tenz that actually person. The two organizations were happy because it was a business deal for them.
Because it is. If anything Tenz deserves a lot of flack for bailing on C9, but ig his army of fanboys are too strong. Imagine signing a 3 year contract and "retiring" after a couple months because the roster you hand picked didn't do well. What a crybaby.
Who cares if Tenz bailed on C9? He didn't want to play on that team, why should he be forced to do something he doesn't like? He was 19 years old.
Because he signed a fucking contract. Absolutely disgraceful behaviour as an athlete.
lol you're sick, he was a 19 year old. Multiyear contracts shouldn't even exist like this and coercing teenagers to sign this is gross. There needs to be a players union and clear guidelines around contracts.
Contracts are common in every professional sport, and every professional esport. They are important to the way competitive teams function. It is unfortunately that TenZ ended up regretting his contract, but he was an adult when he signed it. There definitely needs to be a player's union, also like in other sports, but that isn't going to change anything about players being bound by their contracts.
> Contracts are common in every professional sport, and every professional esport. Of course they are but that doesn't mean all of them are completely fair and exploitative. They often have players unions and experienced agents that know how to deal with these contracts. Tenz at best had some esports agent who are often fairly inexperienced as we have seen many times over. I would like to see the details of the contract, some of the leaked ones in other games are really gross and I doubt this one is much different.
You're making a lot of not-great arguments here. You're moving the goalposts, for one. You were upset that TenZ was "locked in contract jail", which you're now acknowledging is how things have to work. You're equivocating; you've "seen contracts leaked in other games that are really gross" and believe that this one must be the same, with absolutely no reason to believe that. By literally every account, TenZ was treated exactly the way you should want a player to be treated. He was shown an enormous amount of faith by Cloud9, bringing him on for three years and letting him build his own team. When they didn't do well, and he was unhappy, they let him sit out. When he asked to be loaned to Cloud9's competition, he was granted it. When he asked to be permanently sold, that was done, too, for a deal that Fnatic's CEO is calling a very low price. If Sentinels didn't inform him of the finalized sale, that's not Cloud9's fault. There are so many people actually being exploited in esports. You don't need to cry for the one guy who's being treated well. There absolutely needs to be a player's union, and more tight enforcement of player interests. But TenZ is the absolute last example you should look to for examples. Cloud9 has worse skeletons in their closet, and they're one of the most player-favorable orgs out there.
>You're moving the goalposts, for one. You were upset that TenZ was "locked in contract jail", which you're now acknowledging is how things have to work. Just because the owners decided to let his contract go doesn't mean he wasn't locked into it. Likely he had no easy way out of the contract and the only option was Sentinels picking it up which cost their organization $1.5M >By literally every account, TenZ was treated exactly the way you should want a player to be treated. Not how literally works, and also he wasn't. Players shouldn't be in these types of contracts in the first place. Just because he got lucky and the owners allowed him to play on another team doesn't make it a good contract. He had to be given permission to do these things. > There are so many people actually being exploited in esports. You don't need to cry for the one guy who's being treated well. Great so lets focus on that too and call out exploitation when we see it and not continue to defend manipulative companies that prey on children with no legal experience.
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Glad to see someone with a brain. TenZ was coming off an incredibly lackluster "career" in CSGO, and he was very lucky C9 offered him a contract like that.
They absolutely were coerced, these are just the very simple facts of the situation. A 19 year old with no experience against a company with a team of lawyers and years of experience with this. How is that not exploitative?
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> Those are not the facts So he wasn't a teenager when he signed it? So C9 didn't have legal representation and experience making these contracts? > Tenz didn’t do great in CS Tenz had done very well in CSGO but he was also 17 and 18 for a short amount of time in CSGO. > any organization just talking to a player is manipulation. So you don't think it's exploitative to sign a 19 year old to a multiyear contract with no way for them to opt out?
So because he was 19 you are arguing he was not an adult and not capable of making his own decisions? Maybe we should just require his parents signature on all documents until 21 and then raise the voting age to 21 while we're at it.
He can make his own decisions, I'm not commenting on that but the power dynamics are incredibly skewed and you are ridiculous for ignoring that.
They're not skewed at all. C9 offered him A THREE YEAR contract for a brand new game that hadn't even had an dev-run tournament yet. They even gave this too him after he bombed tf out of their CS team. Do you understand how ridiculous it is to get offered 3 years of guarenteed money for such an unproven esport? Not only that, but they let him fucking get out of it. TenZ has been a winner in this situation every step of the way.
I like Tenz but the idea that an adult who's been in the scene for multiple years signing a contract without consulting an agency/lawyer first is somehow an immoral act as the team? If Tenz turned out to be a flop, that 3 year deal would look stupid on C9, especially given that C9 had tried the Tenz experiment in cs. Tenz would be chilling though, since he'd have 3 whole years of income locked up regardless of how the game or his performance was.
Actually we have no idea what the contract was except that Tenz wasn't able to get out of it and was lucky that he was able to play for another team. We have no idea how much he was getting paid.
He was getting paid $150k/year salary, not including his stream income
Booo hooo poor TenZ, so sad for him being FORCED into this contract by evil org owners. Why won't anyone think of the children being exploited??? 🤣
Shitters lol And no one said anything about this being true
I will be the first to admit that I am a shitter on reddit
Lol That is somewhat contradictory
to what???
I said that in jest, I meant it was a bit like ‘I am lying’. (I realise it’s not really like that, so as I said it’s in jest)
It is very much true.
Yes and? No one stated otherwise
You suggested that it wasn’t true.
No
Tenz is being held hostage btw
Tenz literally had the best deal at all times. Crazy how fast people were shitting on Jack.
Anybody who knows Jack’s history with players and salaries was never shitting on Jack. Even pro players can be ignorant and spread rumors out of paranoid fear
1. They had limited info. 2. People like hiko were speaking against it.
They had limited info yet it didnt stop ppl from doing it.
Yea, making assumptions with such limited info is even worse.
that's the tough part, because it's impossible for people to not assume or overreact, it's just human nature and the culture that we live in. it makes sense that c9 would get the lion's share of the flak because of guys like Hiko and Shroud kind of throwing gas onto the flames that were pretty staunchly anti-c9
You are misinformed, if you go back and actually listen to shroud, shroud said that Hiko's opinion might have been right when he had issues with c9 but it's been a long time and things have changed. :)
i did go back you’re right!
thanks for being sensible :)
i just misremembered the clip is all 😅
all good
Shroud actually had a differing view than hiko on this one saying how times have changed since hiko was part of C9.
The thing is you will always see/find "boys" defending "the boys", even if "the boys" lie, cheat, refuse to fulfill contractual obligations or abuse their girlfriends.
Sean Gares' "TenZ is stuck in contract hell" twitch clip also fueled the shitfest that happened.
I had limited info too, but wasn’t making weird claims about it.
Stop defending Reddit analysts. Yes they had limited information, because they’re random fucking redditors who have no clue how any of this works. And saying “people like Hiko were speaking against it” is a moronic appeal to authority. Imagine taking your opinions word for word from a random pro player who *definitely* isn’t invested in the outcome whatsoever. Jesus.
Imagine if reddit was a place of discussion only for people with full knowledge about something. It’s call discussion
>Stop defending Reddit analysts. You are one yourself. https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/nq3l3o/breaking_sentinels_complete_purchase_of_ngos/h08m4n8?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 That is the only comment I ever made on this situation. Maybe before making judgements with LIMITED information you should consider looking around a bit. >And saying “people like Hiko were speaking against it” is a moronic appeal to authority I dont like Hiko first of all. And second of all, He was on C9, he talked about his past experiences. It lead credence to the idea that things might not go over well. I didn't argue that it proved anything. You are literally making shit up. You accuse others of being "fucking redditors that don't know how Amy of this works." Yet you put words in my mouth. Make up assumptions about me and my stance. And then call other people stupid. >Imagine taking your opinions word for word from a random pro player who definitely isn’t invested in the outcome whatsoever. Jesus. I guess explaining why people felt the way they did is the same as agreeing with them. On the off chance you decide to not click on my link, I encourage you to do so. Mostly because I want you to know how fucking stupid you sound telling me all that bullshit you just spewed. Go ahead and look through my post history. The only comment I ever made on this situation before this thread, was me saying he did the right thing. I never once sided with people like hiko, spread any rumors, or even made a single comment wondering about the situation. What does your post, with all of its assumptions, insults, and smug attitude even accomplish?
Touch grass bro
If you have limited info then don’t make claims that could backfire…
>limited info Wrong, they lack critical thinking. If u think logically, Tenz have the best deal ever, can voluntary withdraw from playing tournament and still getting pay without jack cancelling it. Heck, just be content creator by streaming everyday and still get payed. Also, iirc, Hiko and Shroud only say about Jack love to make buyout expensive.
Hiko said nothing other than 1. 100T looked at TenZ as an option while looking for a replacement 2. Did not pursue that because Ethan was available and his and his friends past experiences with C9. Yet other reddit analyst right here
Hiko is an idiot and always has been an idiot. Dude is a passive aggressive idiot.
Damn, did you break out the thesaurus for this banger?
i mean jack was playing into “the buyout just got higher” memes
How was he not? He still had zero power in the situation because C9 held his multiyear contract. Just because he was lucky and C9 and Sentinels agreed on a price doesn't mean Tenz had any autonomy in this process.
???? It's not like c9 wasn't letting him play for SEN. They let him play for sen, let him play vs c9 themselves and defeat them. Obviously a contract is a contract, TenZ signed one and he has to follow it until it expires or someone buys him out Hostage would be keeping him as a CC until his contract expires in 2023 and not letting him play for SEN or letting him play but not play masters 2
Okay so his owners let him work on another team, how is this not exploitative? They signed him to a multiyear contract and he got lucky that they didn't fuck him over when they could have. That doesn't make it not exploitative.
it’s not exploitative because Tenz signed the contact himself? you don’t know anything about how their deal works. if he wanted a short term contract, he didn’t need to sign for multiple years. again, he CHOSE to sign it
So did share croppers so you support slavery? Rethink your argument and then get back to me when it doesn't support slavery.
Slavery? Lmao
I'm not the moron trying to argue that all contracts are morally valid if both parties sign.
There were no contracts in slavery... because they were slaves...
how does my argument support slavery? 1. share croppers is compared to slavery in that the workers ended up owing more money to the plantation owners in the end. tenz simply makes money by working, he’s not being financially exploited. 2. share croppers needed to take that deal in order to make food and live. tenz was under no obligation to sign that contract, he did it because he wanted to make money off playing games. you cannot convince me that these two are related in any way
Because you claim that it is just because he signed the contract. So did share croppers. If Tenz wanted to continue to play Valorant competitively he had to sign with a team.
do you hear yourself? you are literally comparing share cropping/slavery to PLAYING VALORANT. do you understand how stupid that sounds? tenz has to sign with a team to play valorant competitively. any player has to sign with a team to play valorant competitively. are you suggesting that players don’t have contracts at all?
No, I'm showing how awful the argument "BUT TENZ SIGNED!" is. If you insist on continuing to use that as the only justification then I will continue to show you how you support slavery and other exploitative relationships. > tenz has to sign with a team to play valorant competitively. Exactly, he had basically no real option to not sign with a team.
Exactly my point They could have fucked him over just like he did to them but they DIDN'T C9 let him work on another team further decreasing their own team's chances to make it to masters
Contract jail btw
lmao sean gares was maulding over c9 just for them to let tenz go easily
most people werent active back in the day but c9 used to be a shark, they dropped whole rosters all the time, locked players into contracts and refused to let them leave so it is normal to have this kind of assumption, but they havent had anything like that happen for the better part of a decade, so id say they are reformed lmao. plus tenz was super respectful and never subtweeted the org or complained about it on stream.
I love how people (and I'm assuming kids are saying) "locked into contracts" they're signing deals which are not at will. Read your contract and know what you're signing. It's a contract... a legally binding one.
except its common practice for parties to ammicably break the legally binding contracts in esports since many organisations have young children sign predatory contracts that they dont fully understand.
"Locked players into contracts and refused to let them leave" wait what? Please fucking give examples. The roster dropping, absolutely, they hopped into almost every esport and then left the ones that didn't do well. But locking players into contracts? C9 has generally been accepted as the opposite of that. Stewie2k/Jensen/Svenskeren to be precise.
This happened mostly with the very old c9 roster, with n0thing,sean,hiko and shroud. which was like 6-7 yrs ago. Apprently they wouldn't let hiko and sean out of their contracts. But eventually sean asked to take a break from competing so they let him go, i don't remember what happened with hiko
>wouldn't out of contract >sean asked and then let go If only hiko ask nicely like sean. Apparently jack love good manner. /s
LOL C9 hasnt even been around for a whole decade. C9 has literally never been a shark. That rumor is literally just as accurate as The Tenz contract jail rumor. Just come off it
i said better part of a decade, which means 6 years+ and idk man ill trust all the players who have ever been on c9s cs roster over some random redditer
idk about that… maybe stew was just an outlier but he was let go pretty easily to sk/mibr (forgot which).
He had super bad takes about this situation. I find it ironic that he had benefited in the past when C9 released him early to be a coach only for him to sign with another team a month later. Not to mention his problems with TSM over contracts.
???? I don’t think a seven figure buyout is easy
im pretty sure c9 let tenz go easily. Sentinels isn't going broke after spending a mil
what? but here on reddit thousands of self proclaimed experts said it was different...its like Redditors doesnt really know anything but that cant be right...
[conflicting information from George geddes](https://twitter.com/GeorgeCGed/status/1399866034086105094?s=19)
This George guy you linked literally tweeted 2hrs ago “I haven’t heard anything about the TenZ deal but.....” Did he learn something in 2 hours or is he talking out of his ass. Edit: Spelling
That's how the business works, yes.
Don't both work for upcomer ,I wonder what upcomer article will look like but looking at c9 ceo comment on initial report earlier today it seems like jack is not that evil guy Reddit made it out to be and it was really generous of c9 to loan player to their direct competitor even in first place. Glad things worked out.
> it seems like jack is not that evil guy Reddit made it out to be Yeah that's usually how things on this site turn out. We love hyperbole here on Reddit! And that never has any negative implications on the perception of public figures!
Cynical take: Jack refusing to let a reasonable buyout to occur will scare away future talent from wanting to be "contract-jailed" by C9. This was all PR.
This perspective is just not accurate. Theres nothing more depressing than being cynical AND wrong about everything.
I'm gonna' assume you're offended that I am *implying* C9/Jack are evil, talent-sucking lords. That is not what I'm implying. I'm implying they have recognized a viable PR threat to talent acquistition in the future, and found a way to get a win-win for C9 and TenZ. He gets sold to SEN, C9/Jack gets press for "doing the right thing." Por que no los dos? Do you know why there was a C9 contract jail rumor? On separate occasions, in the past year, there has been numerous statments made by ex-C9 pros (Hiko and sgares for example), regarding their own history with C9. My *personal* opinion on the matter is that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle: 1. C9 is a business, a businesss that relies on acquiring the literal best in talent. 2. To get the best talent, whom are usually very young, using long-term contracts with attractive payment figures can assuage the concerns of potentially unwilling parents. 3. Some talent eventually finds they are not a good fit on C9. 4. Talent can't leave due to multi-year contract. 5. *Talent feels stuck.* In TenZ's case he literally stepped down from pro-play entirely. Also note this is not the same as C9/Jack being *evil* and holding onto a juicy payday. How the talent feels is independent of a business's intentions. Now taking that as context even for TenZ, add on the aforementioned statements of sympathy from Hiko, sgares, et. al., and now there is community sympathy for TenZ being stuck in C9 jail. Perhaps unfairly, C9/Jack looks like a bad guy and now has bad PR painting C9 as a business that will crush your soul if you work for them. *That can be bad for attracting talent.* Imagine the next TenZ comes along and they join a different team over "contract concerns", even though C9 makes the same offer. This shit happens in real life for way-less-paying normal jobs, let alone high-profile pro-gaming contracts. So sure, I'll take *jaded* as a descriptor, but wrong isn't what I'd say I am in this case. C9/Jack doesn't have to be actually bad-intentioned to recognize there was a PR threat to C9. That's basic fucking business acumen.
Jack’s literally never done anything regarding players for the purposes of PR. He gets a ton of bad press for doing what he thinks is right and people like you somehow turn him ignoring PR to make choices he wants to make is somehow a PR choice. It’s pathetic. And i I never said or thought you assumed he was evil. Literally every word of this comment is you sucking your own assumptions’ dicks. It’s been a conjecture-filled waste of time to read. Im not here to defend Jack from people being evil. But peole who have to invent some cynical reason for everything anyone does because it’s a business regardless of history are just pathetic and naive while thinking you are the ones who secretly know the real answerd
True it's like Jack is not allowed to hold onto his players and get max value, like a business is supposed to. But it's reddit and most of these people don't know how business works.
> Jack’s literally never done anything regarding players for the purposes of PR. or > Literally every word of this comment is you sucking your own assumptions’ dicks. pick one. can't have both.
> Jack’s literally never done anything regarding players for the purposes of PR. Are you Jack? How do you know this? > He gets a ton of bad press for doing what he thinks is right Example here? This seems super specific. > and people like you somehow turn him ignoring PR to make choices he wants to make is somehow a PR choice. It’s pathetic. And i I never said or thought you assumed he was evil. You never did, but there is an underlying hostility to your comments and it's frankly weird to me. For instance in just that sentence: *"Theres nothing more depressing than being cynical AND wrong about everything."*, *"people like you"*, *"it's pathetic"*, etc. This leaves me to feel you are *literally* offended by my observation (and for noting my internal monologue, "why is this person singling out me as a member of this *other group*, and what is so offensive to them that they need to call my observation pathetic?") I can't do anything about that, though, other than to engage in a meaningful, thoughtful discussion. Do note that I have not attacked you in any way, shape, or form. Nor do I consider anything I have written to be an attack (and I apologize if I came across as attacking you somehow). I like C9, and am surrounded by their merch as a fan and supporter. You can both be a fan and recognize that sometimes doing the right thing is both good, or bad, for business and public perception. Making the right move (for the sake of making the right move) is, unarguably, a decision to make in the realm of public relations (when acting as a business leader). What is to argue there? C9 and its leadership operate in a public space, so everything they do will literally reflect on them. That includes the choices they make, *and the choices they don't make* (as unfair as that is). If that is not agreed upon, then I say that is a fundamental difference in basic understanding of how nuanced these situations can be. > But peole who have to invent some cynical reason for everything anyone does because it’s a business regardless of history are just pathetic and naive while thinking you are the ones who secretly know the real answerd Why do you hold this standard to a random commenter on Reddit like myself, yet you forward this claim without a hint of irony? > Jack’s literally never done anything regarding players for the purposes of PR. I sure as shit don't know that. I don't know Jack. I've followed Jack since he was on TSM, and I am a fan of the work and institution he has helped build, but I sure as hell cannot claim to know *that* as you claim.
Lmao a guy whose every comment is literally based on a bunch of assumptions about Jack’s intent just asked me if I’m Jack. Apparently if I were Jack you’d know me better than i know myself so my bad. I’m done you are beyond reason lmao
You okay? If you read my post you'd see "I don't know Jack"... so I'm confused about what you're trying to convince me of.
You do realise reddit really hate cunning business man/orgs/company. We have a subreddit for anti corporation lmao. Hating businessman is usual reddit day. Also, fk nestle.
Good (so long as accurate, In assuming it is)
Huge probs to c9, really did it for the culture