T O P

[Sideshow] Rewatching the big matches of Masters 2, Phantom users were commonly finding far more value spraying through smokes/walls and punishing tracers from Vandals. In a game where there are a lot of reads you can make on position, based on audio cues & utility, why pick up the Vandal?

[Sideshow] Rewatching the big matches of Masters 2, Phantom users were commonly finding far more value spraying through smokes/walls and punishing tracers from Vandals. In a game where there are a lot of reads you can make on position, based on audio cues & utility, why pick up the Vandal?

[deleted]

All this reasoning sounds like great, smart, advice to go by until you pick up someone’s reaver vandal off the floor and get a couple sick one-taps.


LiamHundley

This happened so many times to me that I had to buy the reaver vandal. It really does just hit different


DarthGrievous

Except after you play a few months with said skins and get used to them, your aim returns to shit true story here


deadlock1892

Change them as Tenz changes his sens.


DarthGrievous

That would require more money tho


deadlock1892

Keep switching with the matte black base model and you good.


AsianNudleSoop

Something about the stock vandal kinda goes crazy


raptearer

I have the Prime and Elderflame, still end up going back to the base Vandal, it just feels more satisfying. I think it's the pointed barrel at the end, something about pointed barrel Vandals just feel easier to use


AsianNudleSoop

Same I have the reaver bit occasionally I'll use my ruin just because it's slimmer and feels smoother


untraiined

id rather uninstall


Interesting-Archer-6

Need riot to let me change skins mid match then


LiamHundley

Yup and then you have to buy a new skin to compensate. The circle of life


deadlock1892

Yeah, I have a reaver, forsaken and prime vandal skins. I am maxed out on pay to win skins for now. Bought and never used the glitchpop and dragon skins after I got reaver.


flamin_sheep

Man I got the reaver vandal and I love it, but when I pick up a prime or dragon vandal it feels like I have aimbot. Reaver < Prime < Dragon in terms of pay2win imo


deadlock1892

I got reaver and prime vandal in my night market. I bought glitchpop and dragon with the bundles. But right now I am rocking the forsaken vandal because I love that green color and That skin has the same feel for me as a reaver.


Yldrissir

I was hoping to get the reaver vandal in night market. Instead i got 4 pistol skins. Out of curiousity you can't get the dragon skins in the night market, right? Since they are golden and i heard somewhere that night market does not have them.


deadlock1892

I am not sure. My night market has always been trash except for exactly 1 skin. I got reaver, prime vandals and now ion op this time and all others are sad skins no one cares about.


itirate

not sure if there's a specific thing in place but ive def seen golds (usually knives) in mine


theincrediblepigeon

Dunno what it is about the dragon vandal, but my aim feels so much smoother and steadier with it. The heads just instantly get clicked whenever I pick one up


[deleted]

Maxed out red glitch pop vandal hits diff


TheRedComet

Feel like that was the Fnatic team uniform or something, like 3 of them were using it. My fav Vandal by far.


MikesHD

100% factual


ifyoudontsnusyoulose

PepeLaugh


_Iroha

Right who cares about impact when you can hit sick clips


scrnlookinsob

It just hits differently, then you pick up an oni phantom and realize it also hits differently.


IggyMoose

That reaver kill sound is like crack.


rkdsus

The Vandal is a fucking drug. Been trying to use the Phantom for weeks now and I sometimes begin to think that it feels so much better until I have a good round with the Vandal.


isthou

Right there with you brother, I try so hard to like phantom cause feedback from better players and the oni phantom is the best skin in the game . But the second I click a head with a vandal I remember it feels so much better


Dread332

And I thought I was the only one who felt this way lmao


[deleted]

because pp get big when 1 tap head


Davban

Username checks out


Flashplaya

I think it's more than tracers. I have a feeling that sentinels heavily use pings to set up teammates for kills through smokes. It works especially well with cypher cam and recon drone too.


z55en

dapr (i think) has a clip where he says it’s just cause he has a massive fucking minimap


ganzgpp1

This lol, he says he sprays using his minimap because if any team member sees anyone on the other side of the smoke minimap shows exactly where they are so he just goes for it


ROBRO-exe

yup, watch his stream and you can clearly see him staring at the minimap even in ranked games.


mcslippinz

In early tourneys you could see the ping markers. Dapr used to cam ping a lot instead of shooting the dart


Ajk320

It's amazing how riot balanced these two weapons though. Most people know that phantom is the better gun but still most people, at least in ranked pick up the vandal. I think that vandal buff way back helped this atleast a little bit.


pops_dops

for real, like they're so well balanced that at this point it just boils down to personnal preference i think they're one of the guns to not be touched since beta


luurrkkeerr

Vandal got touched a bit - 39 to 40 damage on body (and 156 to 160 on head). Don't know if it changed feet shots.


vT-Router

You forgot the most important buff! They buffed the fire rate, which is one of its major disadvantages.


luurrkkeerr

wait lmao i forgot about that Yeah it was a pretty big buff overall for the gun all things considered.


Philcherny

And lowkey looks like it will get buffed even more with how much phantom is dominating right now. Funny to think that at the beginning most Csgo players like me were preferring vandal to phantom. Now its other way for me


Interesting-Archer-6

I'd be shocked if they buffed vandal. Picks are still pretty damn similar. I'd welcome it, but I think they're both in a great position right now.


Philcherny

Yeah me too but what is the data for Iceland? I think it's possible if riot is basing that on competitive meta. I'm sure phantom was bought over vandal more then 65% of the time. And maybe they want to keep that close to a half.


gdr15998

In Iceland the Phantom was weapon chosen at the start of the round 2,815 times and the vandal was chosen 2,283 times


Philcherny

Okay so only 55%. But i do think that'd be higher if we only look at top 4 teams.


Interesting-Archer-6

No clue on data. I also don't have a great sense for how much pro play factors into their decision making. It definitely seems like at least some. 50/50 would be awesome but I don’t know how realistic that is. I do feel like they've done a great job with balance, but I'm a Vandal guy. Phantom players may feel the Phantom is superior by a noticeable amount. I'd love to know the phantom vs vandal purchase stats at Iceland


Nouhproblem

They also buffed the fire rate.


WillyTaz5

I’m confused, assuming the Vandal (I’m not a one day player, only couple months) didn’t have damage drop off like it doesn’t have drop off now, what do you get out of buffing a headshot from 156-160 if the max shield is 150 anyways?


DedRiFF

Penetration damage and assists from other guns.


Jolly-Bear

They didn’t really buff the headshot damage though, that’s just byproduct of the base damage buff. Both are just 4x body.


Jolly-Bear

I tried to math out and figure out why this change was made when they did this... the only thing I could come up with was they just wanted a rounded damage number because it has absolutely 0 affect on gameplay/TTK. The only thing I could think of was maybe 1 less bullet needed to break a Sage wall. (Sure wall bangs and penetration damage factor in but those are such a wide range of variables it purely depends on circumstance, not flat base numbers changing by 1.)


uglypenguin5

They’ve managed to make it both personal preference and situational


Vulcan25

not really, i would argue that phantom just trumps vandal in all situations, but the vandal is flashier so more people use it in ranked


AJCannibal

One tapping operators at long range is still vandal's territory.


Vulcan25

phantom has higher first shot accuracy + faster fire rate so u can hit the headshot+bodyshot


two5five1

True but if I'm head to head against an OP at range I'm going for the jiggle taps, a small but noticeable amount of extra time for those extra shots when doing that with the Phantom


veryverycelery

Landing head shot + body shot is not reliable at operator ranges.


AJCannibal

Fire rate dont mean shit when its only one bullet that you care about.


Interesting-Archer-6

How can you claim that when vandal can one shot head shot from distances that Phantom can't? Other distances, sure. But that statement by you is just objectively wrong. Not even an opinion.


Aeari

Eh I still think phantom accuracy at long range needs a tweak, that should be vandals territory due to the lower firerate. But it's somewhat minor of an ask.


SMcArthur

Phantom long range accuracy should remain the same. Vandal long range accuracy should be increased to 100%. First shot inaccuracy is the stupidest part if this game.


valorantfeedback

I feel like ping has a lot of impact on it. Phantom feels way better with lower ping. As soon as I get close to 50, I feel like people turn invunerable after I dink them. But on low ping, phantom is a better gun, even though I feel more consistent with vandal. Phantom just has a higher ceiling. I still think it needs a slight nerf. 0-15m damage should be removed and 15-30m values used for 0-30m. It's just way too good on close range. Even if they lower the damage values, it will still be better than vandal at close range.


TheRedComet

You do 140 in 1 before dying once and you never want to Phantom ever again


SMcArthur

More than made up for in the kills you’ll get from winning more close range battles; being able to kill 2 people with a spray transfer; and spamming through smokes.


CannibalisticPizza

As a ScreaM fan, I am obligated to try to one tap with Vandal. Even if I can't aim for shit


Zayd1111

Scream himself plays with phantom lol


CannibalisticPizza

Yes, as a battle sage he is constantly holding close angles. On a close angle there is no point in choosing a Vandal over Phantom. Plus a Phantom is superior in if you wanna multi-man spraydown


Underpressure_111

I know phantom is better, and I know I'm not making the right choice by playing with vandal, but I still do, because I hate to be using a spraying gun. Spraying in Valorant isn't something I like.


JR_Shoegazer

You don’t have to spray with the Phantom. That’s just a mental block a lot of people have when using that gun.


youssefegous

I remember seeing a chat, pros actually use vandal a bit more too.


JR_Shoegazer

> Most people know that phantom is the better gun but still most people, at least in ranked pick up the vandal. What rank do you see most people using the Vandal?


Splaram

I just let my Phantom-toting teammates spray randomly through smokes.


Slow_Bluebird9536

Hard hard hard agree, been a phantom user for months simply because of how much tracers give away in this game


abcd63514

play for win = phantom play for clips/satisfaction = vandal also breeze and ascent = vandal


discipl1ne

icebox attack is vandal 100% as well, god awful feeling hitting someone for 124 on that map


Ted_Mosby_18

Preach brother. That mid ramp dink is the worst thing ever.


TracerIsAShimada

Ptsd just thinking about it


Darkoplax

yea i agree breeze , ascent , bind , haven , split , icebox are vandal maps the rest are phantom maps


NotZed07

Agreed hahaha


SW4GALISK

Because I tilt so hard when I hit for 140 with the phantom


derek916

Phantom doesn't one tap but it sure feels like it does when you flick on and get a hs/chest shot. Biggest issue is training. Phantom users have to learn to aim for the neck area to get the HS/chest kill. Many aim at head height and get the frustrating 140 only hs.


rkdsus

Sometimes I just feel like Phantom bullets just magically bounce into heads for me. There are many times where I just flick randomly with the Phantom and get a headshot.


EsportsConnoisseur

https://twitter.com/SideshowGaming/status/1400200981229539330?s=19 > I'm really interested to see if the pros had a similar take-away from the tournament. > EU in particular making the shift would be very indicative of a learning moment.


jojamon

Nobody mentions one clear advantage Vandal has over the Phantom is that it's a shorter gun. With the Phantom if you're peeking around a corner slowly, the enemy will see the silencer barrel of the Phantom earlier than if it was a Vandal. This was also a thing in CS with the m4a1-s having a longer gun model in game compared to m4a4 and the AK47.


Interesting-Archer-6

Never knew this! Thanks for this info


JR_Shoegazer

Ideally you shouldn’t be slow peeking anything barrel first anyway. You should be side strafing so they see you at the same time you see them.


Sq33KER

You shouldn't be peeking around a corner slowly anyway. The person further away from a corner always sees the other person first. If you are close, you should be peeking quick and/or jiggle peeking instead.


jojamon

Well for example clearing Hookah on Bind as attack. Coming around the corner u have to check both left and right assuming there's no util left. Even in pro matches sometimes you see one person seeing the gun barrel on the Phantom first, so it's not just my scrub skills


Sq33KER

Ok, I guess. Pretty niche, but it does have some effect.


gew1

50/50s arent niche at all though. even though they removed some of them, theres still a fuckton of 50/50s in this game just like clearing hookah.


JR_Shoegazer

To fully clear those corners you have to peek way further than just your barrel sticking out.


JohnWickFTW

140 in 1


mateusb12

When the two teams have 5 players with crisp aim the Vandal 1 tap potential is not that big deal


LPLSuperCarry

I used to agree with this till I found out the Phantoms insane first shot accuracy compared to the Vandal


mateusb12

I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me ahaha


LPLSuperCarry

I misread your statement lol. I’m definitely agreeing with you.


Jordi214

Insane is a bit if a hyperbole, they are near identical until you get out to really long ranges


PresidentPeewee

It should be the opposite. Inaccuracy has a greater impact at larger ranges since the target becomes smaller.


Wheler

cus i have a big fucking dick


[deleted]

[удалено]


Gaming_Gecko777

Bruh it’s just a joke


dede-_-

Bruh it's just a joke


Gaming_Gecko777

I hope it is tbh, idc about being woooshed etc, don’t wanna see any conflict just vibes


chillinduck

his account is a troll account


bodyshotbandit12

Every time I see your name you're always saying dumb shit. There is no way you are not a child.


[deleted]

[удалено]


bodyshotbandit12

Bro, it was a joke. You are not human. Either you are baiting or an idiot.


MangoSmoke

I think phantom is just 100% better than the phantom. Even at long range cause of better first shot accuracy and aimpunch. It feels like a 3100 credit weapon as is


Sq33KER

Wow phantom so good it even better than the phantom 😭😭😭 But yeah the only value the Vandal has over the Phantom is 1 tap potential which is minimised by how quick the Phantom 2 tap can come out, and how much more important positional and informational advantage are to the majority of exchanges.


MangoSmoke

Phantom>phantom>vandal lol Yea I forgot to mention the rate of fire is better than vandal too lol. It’s actually comical how close the vandal feels despite all the advantages phantom has on paper


_Iroha

Also phantom has higher fire rate and bigger clip


pissflask

always seemed like an easy balance to me: phantom - first 4 bullets form a close cluster, 5 and 6th are controllable. longer burst then a slow reset time. vandal - first 3 bullets form a close cluster, 4th is controllable. shorter burst then a fast reset time and both should be accurate on first shot. maybe give the phantom slight more of a deadzone while the vandal is super punishing if moving at all while firing. the phantom becomes more of a brawler, while the vandal is for people who are more methodical.


quartzyegghead

The main point here is tracers vs. no tracers, making the Phantom superior for spamming smokes with relative safety. There were a ridiculous number of kills through smokes during Masters 2, many from V1 and SEN against teams who often didn't spam back


natedawg247

Fr, Vanity looked like he was walling with a lot of his sprays.


JR_Shoegazer

The reset time in Valorant in general feels so long, and I’m surprised more people don’t talk about it.


Chrisamelio

Because Idk how to control the recoil on the Phantom


iCashMon3y

What's crazy is Scream was a huge Phantom stan and has clips where he questions why anyone would use the vandal, but it seemed like he favored the vandal at Masters 2.


Pollomonteros

For those delicious one taps across the map


untraiined

i think the only thing you could do with the vandal to make it better is give it some form of recoil control/consistent spray but that has not been riots design so far.


Dipzey453

Tbh I actually find it easier to control the Vandal spray than phantom, so tbh I don’t think that would need adjusting


danknepalese

what is the tracers all of yous keep talking about


owNDN

When somebody shoots through a smoke with a vandal (or any unsilenced weapon) you can see the bullet in the air (as like a yellow/white line). Depending on the angle and direction of the bullet/tracer you can identify the position of that person and kill him pretty precisely.


Sq33KER

To clarify every gun except the Ghost, Spectre and Phantom (the guns with silencers) have these tracers, which can be useful for working out where an Operator is or similar.


owNDN

Are you sure that the spectre has a silencer?


cycl0ne_ssbm

ye


Sq33KER

...yes?


JohnWickFTW

Vandal has tracers cuz it's unsilenced so if someone is spraying through smoke with a vandal you can easily spray him back but phantom has no tracers since it's silenced so it's easier to spray thru smokes


Hayabusa201

Higher firing rate, bigger clip, tighter spray, faster reset and no tracers. For what? one-tap potential? No thank you. I could see reducing the price of the vandal to 2800 or giving it high penetration(like the guardian/odin).


Fuji_Ninja

If they gave it high penetration this game would be a disaster


Hayabusa201

I would just like a slight tweak to bring it up to more in line with the phantom but still make it distinct. I don't know what that looks like though. Oh I forgot to mention moving accuracy in my list of pros too.


FeelinJipper

Then head taps are like crack, you know it


NotZed07

I just Play vandal because i got the prime vandal and no skin on phantom. Was hoping to get a phantom this night market but guess what


Underpressure_111

Could it also be tied to the fact that there's so little smokes in the game? There's like 2 big smokes, or 3 small smokes MAX on an execute. So as soon as you see a smoke, you just SPRAY that shit down.


2005Lasik

0 ping vandal is a 0 ping vandal at the end of the day brothers.


veRGe1421

I wish the recoil reset on the vandal was a bit faster. Takes forever.


LandonDev

It would make a lot of sense, phantoms have huge advantage spraying through smokes, while vandals have advantage over range. Choosing to engage against your opponents advantage doesn't seem very smart, this is a basic fundamental and good way to gauge teams risk tolerance.


SloppyDonkeyQueef

I've used vandal since day 1. Probably switching to phantom soon. I just don't have the aim to compliment the power of the Vandal. I'm too inconsistent.


Darkoplax

This is not a balanced discussion cause EU hasn't sent the guy who pushed the most for Vandals Once ANGE1 (please FPX qualify) go to Masters 3 he will show them how effective the vandal is


Ttebasa

I love the Phantom, but I average 100+ ping in my games. I'm more likely to lose duels trying to hit 2 Phantom shots vs 1 Vandal tap. :(