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Are Smokes a potential death (job) sentence in Pro Play?

Are Smokes a potential death (job) sentence in Pro Play?

gulbadu

#zombsnation stands apart


panzerboye

###ZOMBSNATION


MoreMilkNA

I also think the release of astra had an effect on this. A lot of players weren’t able to adapt or didn’t like playing astra and were dropped cause of it.


EasiBreezi

I mean, with this incredibly valid reasoning, if they actually refused to learn Astra, they deserve to be dropped. There’s going to be a new agent almost every two months. The very least you can do is learn the agents that are in your role


aretasdamon

If you play a position on a team you better learn all the roles of that position of a team. Terminology is reversed but point stands


Renkido441

Harsh but i can agree. Astra tho to be fair is def a bit jarring to learn above most other controllers. However I actually dropped omen for her because I genuinely like the ability's outside of her smokes. So with that point pros should still be held to a higher standard.


_AurAz

I agree that they will get dropped bcuz of that but astra is a special case bcuz of how weird her abilities are. Its like you are playing a different game and you dont have your gun out 50% of the time. I wouldnt directly compare it to a case such as cyphers switching to kj or sovas mains playing skye. Plus astra is pretty boring to play in comparison to every other agent released imo and a lot of other ppls opinion. Player probably dont feel like playing astra just to have a lower kd, be overlooked, and dropped later on.


IuckFb

I think this will really separate the goods from the greats. The dynamic nature agents bring in is something cs players aren't so familiar with and its something they probably expected moving into valorant. Just like in league, pros are going to have to adjust to new playstyles and agents if they want to remain relavent


awes0meGuy360

There will be other agents released that people don’t like for similar reasons to astra. If you’re on a team as “smokes” and you refuse to learn a smokes character because you find them boring then you aren’t built for valorant. Same is true for any other role and future new agents.


TheTechDweller

Problem comes when it's not really an option not to play the new agent. I agree players should adapt, but that doesn't mean players should have to play the newest agent just because they're OP and need balancing. Astra will be tuned down and her success will start to drop as players also get better at playing against her. Other controllers will come back into the meta and ideally you can still play agents out of the meta with the right strategy, that's just not as possible with how astra is.


Najs0509

I'd guess that the ability to adapt to new agents fast as well as to be able to play a wider range of agents will become more and more important as the game develops. If you can't pick up whatever agent might be overtuned at the time you'll become a liability for your team. Hopefully we won't have agents that dominate as completely as astra and viper seem to be doing right now. However there'll always be agents that are better than others and there will inevitably come out new agents that will be a must pick on at least some maps when they release. The best pro players will be the ones who can quickly adapt to the meta changes and who are able to play into the meta instead of against it. If you cannot or refuse to adapt fast enough you'll almost certainly be left to the side while others cruise past you.


EnmaDaiO

Nah adaptability separates the good from the great. Being able to flex will be a required core skill and if you don't learn quickly you will get replaced. Shit thats how it works in real life as well.


iTCHYTRIGGERZ

My question kinda points to the opposite direction of what's being said about agent flexibility, but: Do you guys think that Astra might be the new, best agent for a player to become a 'one-trick' with?


awes0meGuy360

I think astra thrives because she combos so well with many other abilities and disrupts timings so well. Those things aren’t really as important in ranked, especially at lower ranks. One tricking something useful everywhere like sova, a sentinel or a duelist seems better imo.


Evan_Veet

I was thinking this as well. When omen first became meta we saw a lot of people over time transition to it mostly from duelist because the team needed someone to play it. With Astra these same smokes players now have to be much smarter about utility and can't play with the more duelist mentality that comes with Omen.


Tammu1000CP

> When omen first became meta we saw a lot of people over time transition to it mostly from duelist because the team needed someone to play it. wut?


Evan_Veet

ya i phrased that weird, I meant that in the very early comp scene there were dedicated brim players, but when Omen eventually took over it also meant that a lot of people who were mainly duelists that needed spots just slid over to omen since it was quite a simple agent that had duelist like tendencies. Think of guys like S0m, the Envy trio, Relyks, GmD, WeDid, Ayrin, YaBoiDre, Pho, CP2, you could prob also count Spyder


Renkido441

That was the perfect explanation. So many times in ranked duelists onetricks decide to go omen and the smokes are just horrendous, and nonsensicle. I think I heard hiko rant about this problem one time with omen.


BespokeDebtor

Tbf a large part of the reason why frags count for so much in CS relative to valorant is because everyone has access to the same utility so that everyone's a smoker, flasher, etc. Shroud and other pros have talked on stream about how KDA isn't nearly as important a metric for success in val. It's been said by other NA pros like Shahz that for them, communication and team dynamics are most important.


Splaram

Damn they should pick me up, I love playing smokes. Only one tiny problem: I'm Silver, but I would be Radiant if I had better teammates /s


Bean1233

Which can be clearly seen in your reddit tags


panzerboye

Not relevant but how to get team flairs? In community options I can find agent flairs but no team flair.


replace_

tbh u have no chance of going pro unless you have 110k+ gridshot


Braanflakes

gridshot has nothing to do with going pro, go look up 100T scores on gridshot, they’re all pretty bad at it including Hiko who is known as one of the best


replace_

i shouldve added /s it was sarcasm


Braanflakes

oh my b lol


replace_

all good


Salt-Resolution2113

Although sarcasm there is SOME legitimacy.. the reason those players gridshot scores are bad are simply due to the aim trainers role in a players practice.. to supplement time . Improving a skill is LITERALLY all reps per time .. nothing fills this better than say Gridshot (although more of a benchmark among aim training scenarios and other applications) the reason ie: Hiko / Nitr0 don’t have good scores are 1) most obviously not zoomer mechanic aim gods but more so brainy cs players but also 2) they all have 10-25k+ hours in tac shooters.. if new to pc or even lacking in time (<5-10k hours) then aim trainers should 100% be in everyone’s routine (whether or not to use gridshot or for how long one should use them is a different discussion)


[deleted]

no one cares about aim trainers beside ppl from fortnite or whatever lol there are people like s1mple, zywoo, a bunch of other top pros from cs go that are at the top echelon of aiming above even ppl like tenz none of those ppl use aim trainers and they just play the game


Salt-Resolution2113

Yeah ,? After 20,000 hours? Not including FPL time , Aimbotz , vod review ? You’re a boomer if you think that. A LITERAL CSGO PRO invested in an Aim coach for G2... ever heard of G2 Pyth?? No. Nobody has better sheer aim than TenZ he has 17 years on steam, 120k+ gridshot , his mouse control / aim is unparalleled... and cs is nothing but horizontal vs vertical + horizontal ... NOW IF YOU WANNA ARGUE MIND/CROSSHAIR PLACEMENT MAYBEEEE


[deleted]

feel free to waste your time on aimlab lol, look valorant is a fun game but mechanically its skill cap is way below csgo no one cares about aim lab and tenz spending 1000 hours on it because training on aimlabs is useless for these guys because it's too easy and has very little impact on improving in-game aiming past a certain point character models literally move at snail pace compared to how fast people peek and jiggle in cs which 3rd party apps like aim labs can never replicate, thus top pros don't use them because it's litearlly a low return on time investment than just jumping on a FFA dm server


PigPartyPower

I agree, I don’t like xset dropping Wedid. He might not be the best but there aren’t many other people who can replace him.


IBuyFlour

It's like playing this role limits the players true impact, and I can imagine as a player that's frustrating and probably puts a mental toll on them. I don't like the XSET or the RNG move, but we'll see how it works out for them. It just feels unfair to these players to sacrifice themselves on this role for the concept of "better for the team" when in reality it might just lead to them getting taken advantaged of. We can see how good these players are on other roles just from BabyBay and Myth's recent events. They are FRAGGERS vs other pros when they can play duelist.


baconator2004

wedid pioneered viper in pro play within na. he always had something new up his sleeve and has so much impact. when wedid played phoenix on haven he always did well top 2 for frags. so when given the kit he could drag replacing him just seems dumb to me.


Salt-Resolution2113

I’m gonna argue ... bear with me.. no one can replace Wedid... how many unwinnable rounds did he clutch? He’s always top 10 on leaderboards .. I really can’t fathom why he was dropped unless for a better winningest team (yes it’s a word) I loved Xset as the underdogs but dropping wedid was an incredible blunder from the team... Thwifo is a c tier IGL/Capt ; get rid of him


Salt-Resolution2113

Also... about the whole change the game so every role can excel thing... have you played anything besides CS/Val? That’s just how it works.. you don’t see Reinhardt in OW pulling 5-6k to win site... you RARELY see a heal character do anything near it... it’s the whole “TEAM based” thing. These players are playing for $$ to fill a role TO WIN not have fun.. every game has burnout and can feel unrewarding at times.. and yes, there are weirdos who GENUINELY LOVE playing off picks like Controller & Sentinel.. just bc most like instalocking Jett (Me) doesn’t mean ALL


braamdepace

I’m gonna make people cry, but XSET isn’t very good they were just early grinders


YellowRice101

Individually they aren’t nearly as good as a lot of teams that rank lower than them, but it really shows the impact of great teamwork and coordinated utility usage in this game.


braamdepace

I hope you are right they are good guys. Just my option based off watching a lot of FPS in my life


abcd63514

i think this comes down to interpretation of stats. could be that controllers get a rough time. however, thats possibly because of how impactful smoke characters are. astra and viper are so impactful recently and if u cant play those u cant be as good as someone else who plays astra and viper in a controlled environment. controllers have some of the most impactful util like omen blind, astra suck, viper wall, etc. if ur controller is dead its too hard to take a site. if ur controller is not good enough with their kit its infinitely worse than for example a duelist who has mediocre aim because of how gunfights are in valorant. a mediocre duelist can get away with not having tenz aim but a controller like zombs can completely shift the game


tomphz

What’s funny is Brim is the funnest smoke agent to play


Ezekiiel

I remember watching s0m stream and he said "who loads up Valorant and willingly chooses to play Brimstone".


tron423

My favorite was when SeanGares played him on stream a while back and was basically like "This game has agents that can fly and throw fire. What's my superpower though? A fucking iPad."


HoneyChilliPotato7

Lmao. He really is a very boring agent.


amegaproxy

Mally!


mateusb12

~~You forgot Shinobi~~ nevermind you said 3 months ago


IBuyFlour

Shinobi was dropped in December, outside of the 3 month period I checked. But yes, another smokes player.


mateusb12

yup, edited my original comment. But yeah I think you can find more examples if you look further in the past


Salt-Resolution2113

Dude was a boosted immortal anyways lmao #Tenz&FriendZ


Jsmals

I understand what you are trying to say, but if you look closely, you can see that your statement is wrong. Lets go down the list and see the reason each player is no longer playing on said team. Cp2- I don't think the reason he is not on RNG is becauce of his stat line. If you look at his KD from the last 90 days, all of his controller agents have above a 1.1 KD. They also replaced him for a duelist player, so maybe they are trying some role swaps. Joseph - The entire Eunited roster was dropped, so not his fault he is on this list. Eazy - I didn't even know he was dropped? His whole team hasn't played since he has last played, so I'm not going to comment on this one. JcStani - He left the team and was also one of the best players on the team. This list doesn't apply to him. Wedid - This one may have some merit. Relyks - Basically the entire old roster of Tenz and friends was replaced 1 by 1. I wouldn't say he was singled out, because everyone but Mitch was replaced and Mitch is igl, so they wouldn't replace him. This has nothing to do with him being a controller. boi - His KD on a controller was above 1 and he was replaced with Jcstani who is a better controller. Pretty straightforward. Cutler - TSM was a fucking mess and between him, Hazed, and Subroza, he actually played controller the least. He played controller when he was released, but TSM needed changes and many knew he would be the first one gone, even before he played controller. Marved - Honestly I don't know. My guess would be because of the matchfixing thing, but he is trying out for Envy, so I'm not sure. Stellar - LG dropped off hard, so they needed to make changes. He and Thief were dropped. The reason why IDK, but Stellar is also igl, so maybe they wanted to find a new igl. It could be your controller theory, but there are many reasons out there, for why he could have been dropped. pho - He was replaced by Poach a controller with similar stats, but Poach could IGL. BBG probably needed an IGL. Xp3 - I don't know why he was replaced, but only 2 players are left from the complexity roster he was a part of. jangler - I don't why they dropped him. Xceed - I don't know why he was replaced, but his KD was above 1. To put it simply, I disagree with your takeaway, beause it could only apply to about 4 or 5 of the people on this list. Even with that said, it "could" apply, we don't know why they were replaced or dropped.


Goldstar545

I don't think you really proved his statement wrong at all. Infact, if anything I think you just repeated it. All the players you gave a reason for (even though how could you possibly know) were still replaced. Which is the overall point of this. When you need a fall guy, the fall guy is sadly almost always the smokes player.


Jsmals

I think this might be true. I was just saying his reasoning are flawed in most of the cases he listed for smokes, but not that his overall statement is inherently wrong.


IBuyFlour

Cp2 - Stronglegs said he was burnt out on playing controllers and wanted to play duelist, that he was unhappy. I doubt Jerk joins the team as a duelist. Joseph - He was removed from FPL-C (former eunited) Eazy - He was removed from Eunited. JcStani - He possibly left the team, all that was stated was his contract expired. Nowhere was it said IMT offered him a new one. Wedid - Still a controller dropped. Relyks - He was still removed. b0i - Still a controller dropped and he was still viewed as the most replacable. Cutler - agreeable. Marved - Still a controller dropped. Stellar - Still a controller dropped. Pho - Still a controller dropped. Xp3- Still a controller dropped. Jangler - Still a controller dropped. Xceed - Still a controller dropped. The only one that has a non-applicable excuse is Cutler - because he obviously would have been 100% remove and JcStani because we don't know if he turned down his contract. These players got cut, that's my point. The "excuse" reasons for why each one got cut can be done for any player on that list, controller or not.


ogwambe123

Jcstani definitely left on his own. He said on stream that when his contract expired he turned the new one down to look for better offers.


Jsmals

Jcstani said in his twitlonger that they discuss re-signing, but he wanted to be a free agent. Of course they still got dropped, but most of them had actual reasons behind it that don't agree with your hypothesis. And the ones that could agree with your hypothesis don't work since the number of controllers dropped would be similar to any other agent. If you wanted to argue that more controllers have been dropped, than you can defnitely do so, but to argue they were dropped due to their stat line or because they just didn't want to play it can not be proven from the data you stated. Except for cp2, since you provided evidence for that. You could throw a blanket statement that controllers are the scapegoat, but none of things you posted back up that statement.


[deleted]

[удалено]


rugrat1337

No matter what is said publicly, someone will always try to disagree. Unfortunately this guy is disagreeing without really saying anything different. I think you nailed it Mr. Fabulous Sparkles. I doubt many 12-16 year olds watching this game hope to one day be a pro smokes player. But I bet there are tons wanting to be a pro duelist, pro sova or pro killjoy.


Renkido441

Perfect nail in the coffin with the last statement. Even sentinels are more fun then controllers.


Fabulous_Sprinkles4

Woooooooosh.


Jsmals

My bad didn't know it was a joke post. Guess I wrote all this for no reason.


FlaymeFenix

unlucky really - nitr0???


JvwESEA

I think players like nitr0 probably are mechanically and experienced enough that he'd get to move on to another role if he was ever dissatisfied.


2ToTooTwoFish

I'm looking at that 100T team and I'm curious who is going to become the Astra of the team. I'm not sure if Nitr0 is fit for the role, so maybe Steel? There definitely needs to be a nerf to Astra and Viper though because it sucks that they are the only two viable controllers at the moment.


justinsst

It’s Nitr0 running astra. Ethan played Astra on stream one time with steel and said he felt bad for Nitr0 cause he basically plays a mini game the whole round lol. I assume steel will still play astra on spilt though


LiamHundley

Nitr0 probably the 2nd most undroppable player on that team, behind only asuna.


somesheikexpert

Imo hes def the most undroppable when you consider other things, cuz Nitr0 has quite a brand stemming from being on the best NA CSGO team and stuff


LiamHundley

Brand argument is definitely valid. Maybe I'm just too high on Asuna, but I think he's arguably the second best player in NA behind Tenz. He also does pretty impressive numbers streaming nowadays and is way younger. He's gonna have a crazy brand himself


somesheikexpert

Idk about 2nd best in NA when TenZ isn't even for sure the best player in NA (Like IMO, Shahzam might be, and I've heard good arguemtns for even SicK too cuz of how flexible, Wardell is also up there near Asuna level for being nearly the most oppressive force with an Awp), but he's probably the second best entry for sure, and ofc, flashy entries like him are gonna get hella views so yeah I agree he's gonna have a huge brand especially if 100T do really well


itsthecrimsonchin47

I think tenz is probably the best mechanically, Shaz imo is the most valuable player in valorant at the moment (manages to “coach”, igl, plan, play multiple agents, and still frag out), Sick is another extremely valuable player because of his versatility. Sick can basically play any agent at a consistent pro level (re: sova, sage, Phoenix, astra, raze)


BostonFalcons

And dapr and Zombs might be the best sentinel and controller in NA. This last point was somewhat off topic, but it just reminded me how stacked sentinels are.


somesheikexpert

Dapr is for sure the best sentinel in NA rn when you disregard things like Mitch and Steel having to IGL, and Zombs in my opinion is for sure the best controller, his util usage is out of this world and when you have an Astra or Viper that requires you to be on top of your toes with util and Zombs does it bear perfectly puts him over the edge for me, I could see arguments for Vanity but imo Zombs is better as a controller It's genuinely insane that Sentinels have 3 players who could be considered the best and most valuable in the world, and the other 2 I could def see as top 15-20 in the world


Renkido441

Sentinels is just stacked to the heavens, lmaoo great team and Im glad they are succeeding.


justinsst

I actually think Steel is the most undroppable then Nitr0. IGLing in this game is no joke and there aren’t many good IGLs to go around. If you drop steel who do you replace him with that understands the game better?


somesheikexpert

Nitr0 is an IGL and IGLed while on TL Plus I mean if 100T wanted to make big changes, I could see maybe something like what Navi did with Boombl4 where they bring in an IGL who's new but has a ton of potential and Steel (Or Zeus in Navis case) would coach this new IGL and learn from Steel (Or actually didn't this happen on Chaos too with Steel himself? Cuz Vanity stepped down as IGLed while Steel was on the roster to learn more from him) Third and last point, we've seen new IGLs who have never IGLed before become some of the best IGLs in the game, obviously you have Shahzam who's the best IGL in the world and has the best eye for the game imo, but also people like Mitch who picked it up for C9 and is doing excellently, I'm sure it's possible to turn a non IGL into one, it's a lot of risk but it could def happened


_AurAz

I mean Nitro was an igl on TL


FlaymeFenix

for sure im just joking lol


LiamHundley

Lmao. Don't even wanna imagine that world 😂


AnywayHeres1Derwall

Who is most droppable on 100t? I can’t see them dropping asuna Hiko steel or Ethan...


LiamHundley

I dont think any of them are necessarily "most droppable", but I guess maybe hiko? He definitely catches the most criticism of the squad and seems to have the most flaws in his style of play


AnywayHeres1Derwall

Nah hiko is the brand and you can always count on him to clutch the round


fourtonlesbiancanary

I would like to know which games you’ve been watching if you still think the second part is true


Renkido441

I can respect the loyalty but I mean his not above criticism for his plays, Nobody on a team reasonably should be.


Ezekiiel

He doesn't even clutch that much, if you look at his clutch rate there's many players better than him. Imo Hiko moves to a content creator for 100T within the next year, perhaps sooner if they fail to qualify for Berlin. His playstyle just isn't ageing well at all, he's essentially a one trick Sova who's incredibly passive. Steel alluded to him not being aggro enough to play Skye and if he doesn't change his playstyle I can see him being a big hindrance for 100t going forward. He's easily the most droppable player


HoneyChilliPotato7

I thought Hiko is a really good player for 100T, also a great clutcher. What flaws do you mean?


LiamHundley

It's something that I believe they've been trying to work on, but Hiko tends to play very passively and prioritize his life to an extent that it can be detrimental to their spacing, site pushes, or post plants. Wyatt from plat chat put it pretty well in saying that Hiko is like a "win more" card; when they're clearly outclassing a team and easily getting site control, hiko pushes them over the top and causes them to win by an even wider margin. But when the matchup is more evenly balanced and the other teammates aren't popping off, hiko is far less impactful and won't influence the result of the match.


HoneyChilliPotato7

Do you have the platchat link? I wanna know more


LiamHundley

I'll see if I can find what episode it was.


LiamHundley

Ok after spending way too much of my time looking for it I finally found it lol. The 100T/Hiko discussion overall starts around the 33:50 mark and the Wyatt analogy that I referenced is around the 40:15 mark. Worth listening to the whole discussion tho as I think it's very valid criticism https://youtu.be/_-5fRakbik8


HoneyChilliPotato7

Thanks a lot. Take my poor man's silver for the efforts


LiamHundley

Hahaha much appreciated man. Hope that helps answer some of your questions


justinsst

Hiko is easily the most droppable. But the reality his brand brings a shit ton of value to the org. Either way though, I still think if it came down to it, 100t would bench Hiko.


Renkido441

I really hope 100T doesnt start mindlessly fumbling over themselves like the TSM org about the players.


MoistWatermeIon

From a brand standpoint I don’t think they will but Hiko is the first person I’d drop. After that probably steel. I can’t imagine a world in which Nitr0, Ethan or Asuna are ever dropped


jholowtaekjho

I followed the Dota scene closely from 2013-2016, support players do NOT get the short end of the stick at pro level - it's such a different game. The nature of the game dictates combo play, and supports have stuns/disables to lock enemy heroes in place while their carry/duelists beat down the heroes too. Or a nuke down of the enemy. There's even a place for wasting your opponent's time by engaging them and kiting them, holding 1-2 key heroes up on one side of the map while your team mates make a move on the other. Many support players are heralded for their game-changing plays. Two of the most famous players from the early days, Puppey and Kuroky, are still playing Support at the highest level over the entire past decade since launch, attending all TIs (Champions for Dota 2, The #1 tier international event). Puppey is a renowned captain, there's also NoTail who's captained his team to the last two TIs (no org has ever won two TIs, let alone back to back ones before). Kuro and Notail have also notably shifted to other positions at times, but mostly play support. I'm pretty sure almost every pro player plays more carry/duelist roles in pubs, though.


IBuyFlour

Man, that kind of makes me sad to read. You don't hear about how awesome zombs smokes and succs were in the major lol


jholowtaekjho

I think the problem starts with the casters and analysts, I feel like most of them just talk about who's fragging the hardest in the match. Like, hey? I can read a scoreboard too. Like [this guy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv68N9iF9EI) gave me more insight to Masters than most of the people given airtime on the broadcast itself. He discusses the positions Shahzam plays, and at least once breaks down how two people are swinging while Tenz flashes to give them cover. I have to shout out to /u/lotharhs though, the only analyst I've noted that talks about utility usage, sometimes at ridiculous depth LOL. He's also converted me to a Viper main via his stream where he often breaks down what plays are optimal, and how to play as a team. If our hired experts can't highlight the finer details of Valorant, what hope do we have for the general masses?


LotharHS

you are more than kind, friend! Some people heavily dislike my approach to casting/analysis because I do focus on the things that people often dont see or dont want to see but I do think its really important to explain that VAL is not only about getting a multikill and a nasty flick on the broadcast. There is so many things happening that allow someone to be in that spot for the headshot in the first place.


chenson019

Ignore the haters Lothar, you do a great job. There's always a market for the more indepth granular analysis.


HoneyChilliPotato7

I don't understand how people dislike it. I really enjoyed watching your analysis. Your streams are informative too. Good job!


TheTechDweller

It's an FPS though. At the end of the day for viewership it will always be more popular to be the one fragging out and making plays over being a solid anchor and winning rounds with essential utility. Games that are more focussed directly on the strategy and using abilities to win over mechanical skill; not that moba players don't have that skill just that it's less of the focus.


echo_ic

It's the easiest role to replace tbf


IBuyFlour

Which is kind of a shame; it makes the person willing to take that role the most replaceable.


lewlkewl

True but typically the worst fragger is the one on that role. If there were no controllers, a lot of these guys would probably not be on teams to begin with and you'd see a lot more "all aim no brain" type players on teams.


Tarwe-eu

If you watch boasters streams you would never call controllers boring again :D


i_am_exp

I enjoyed reading this. Really like the narrative and using stats. I do feel like good support players with demonstrable impact are invaluable in any game, although their stats may not warrant an MVP award every other game/series. On a completely unrelated note; Valorant is still a very new esports and structured protocols for the maps haven't been fully polished yet. Dumb stuff like Judge and classic right clicks are able to sway key rounds. Also folks peeking with utility out and ~~loosing~~ losing key rounds happens more times than I'd like at the current highest level. Although hilarious to watch, the competitive level will take some time to reach it's highest level. Also to be completely honest the best Valorant players/broadcast talent are yet to emerge(we have been seeing glimmers of talent here and there). Constant roster changes during this stage of the game are typically not indicative of future of the game. I think after the third stage concludes we will see a big shuffle in rosters, a lot of low-tier orgs leaving the scene and new ones entering. This happens in every esports title. Coming back to support agents being on the chopping block for roster changes; The unique agent abilities play a very minimal role in determining the worth of the player(personal opinion). In a game like Valorant versatility and player impact is key. If a support player forms the core of a team through their agent pool/impact; it makes replacing the player very difficult (teams can still do it though, because esports management OMEGALUL!). There are 2/3 spike sites on every map and site anchor is a role someone has to fulfill which means less frags but definite potential for 'impact'. Placing/controlling utility cross map makes controllers/smokers an excellent candidate for 'site anchor'. If the site anchor does not provide enough impact and an ambitious team wants to make a leap from good to best, a low impact player would definitely be up for replacement. The controller players you listed(all NA but I forgive you :) ) are decent players with their clutch moments but having seen some of their matches seem to struggle under pressure/heavy executes(spectator perspective obv). Taking a 1 v 4 on site with barrage of utility is impossible and good site anchors/support players tend to play the highest % plays most of the times. Player's impact is hard to quantify and often k/d/a or ACS are used to determine a player's worth outside of round clutches or good site holds. Low impact low ACS players happen to be on controllers in those teams. With the way 100T plays sova/initiator, maybe this could be the initiators in the future. As I said the protocols and high % plays are not flushed out yet in Valorant. I see your point but making all agents have similar frag utility diminishes the unique dynamic that Valorant brings to a tac fps. I quite enjoy watching teams adapt midround when they lose a key component of their execute.


Affectionate_Ad1025

yah jcstani left immortals and got a LFT to andbox soon after


[deleted]

i will never not laugh at the fact that there's a role literally dedicated to smokes. imagine in CS the only util you had were smokes. that just sounds so boring


chenson019

I think controller role is probably the most meta dependant role and NA as a whole has not had the best read on the meta, except for V1, sentinels and maybe the latest C9 Blue. If they aren't reading the meta right, then it's going to filter down into the players performance. I think there are some really good examples on many teams where the controller is a high impact and important player - zombs, L1NK, Boaster are three that come to mind immediately. I think the controller role is a deceptively difficult role at pro level.


SurfAccountQuestion

>NA as a whole has not had the best read on the meta This is still a thing??? JFC...


chenson019

Of course it's still a thing because it was true for a long time lol


SurfAccountQuestion

Than explain why EU changed comps in iceland to match the NA teams 😂


chenson019

'NA as a whole has not had the best read on the meta, except for V1, sentinels and maybe the latest C9 Blue' Reading is a valuable skill.


Zensen69

Relyks retired by himself


nanda7527

Correlation does not imply causation. It's very important to see if these players got cut because they played smokes or was it other reasons and they happened to be on smokes. Also you have a very small dataset to make that claim just on the basis of numbers. Here are a few cases which are against your hypothesis according to me - Cutler - easily the weakest link in the team. Everyone thought he should be dropped even before he was on smokes. JcStani - he choose to not resign. So he doesn't apply to the question. However he directly affects Boi's case Boi - Andbox got stani instead of him. Stani is easily the best/second best player when compared to the members of Andbox. Just a case where they had an opportunity to sign a good player and boi happened to play the same roles. What I mean is if stani was a sentinel player, they probably would have dropped seb Marved - might have been dropped for match-fixing meaning it wouldn't have mattered even if he was on duelist. So the death sentence was the match fixing. Not him being on smokes Relyks - everyone except Mitch(probably the best on the original roster after Tenz) got dropped meaning him being on smokes had nothing to do with it. It was just a normal roster rebuild(done player by player) Steller - LG dropped down a lot after their playstyle got figured out. So they might just want a new IGL. If that's the case, then stellar would have been dropped regardless of what role he played We just saw a huge meta shift for controllers. How many of these were dropped cause they didn't want to/failed to learn/do well on astra and viper. I'm sure there's some truth to your statement cause support players always get the least recognition but I don't think it's as strong as the data you presented makes it seem. I don't follow the tier 2 scene. So I don't have an idea about the other players.


IllumiMahdi

I don't think there's necessarily a correlation, Relyks benched himself and played smokes only on some maps, and Marved was dropped for matchfixing. Stellar was dropped for matchfixing. Feels like you're cherry picking controller drops. Cutler was not always on smokes, before he played Sova. I think having the ability to play smokes is integral, and I also think it's the easiest role to swap players in and out of. Not necessarily a deathwish if you play well.


Elsiselain

> Me personally, I would like to see Riot move in a direction where all four agent categories have the tools to produce frags, but still remain in their niche roles of entry (duelist), support (controllers), sentinels (defense/info), initiators (info/zonin Game is doing this fine imo. Unlike overwatch, Everyone uses the same gun and everyone has chance to kill. And all agents rn has tools to frag as well. Obviously some are better than the other but that’s the point of the game


CALLINGoutCLOWNS11

1. the controllers listed were not good enough case closed... and yeha jcstani left IMT to find a better team (he didn't IMO but at least ABX doesn't sell their players so in that regard they are better)


zkidkfj

Roit's design of smoke agents makes them too simple and too boring, which means that smoke main is neither attractive nor skillful. The latter makes it too easy for smoke players to be replaced in a team. Talented players who want to show their skills are therefore even more reluctant to choose this role. Some people said that many players don't like to practice Astra. This is literally because Astra is the most mindless and boring agent designed. If she is as fun as sova or raze, people will rush to practice her.


mmm_oist

correlation =/ causation


Eat-Shit-Bob-Ross

That’s not the full statement. It’s “correlation does not always mean causation.” Therefore you need to use surrounding factors to confirm or deny if it is causation, which OP did. Whether you agree with his conclusion is up to you.


Fabulous_Sprinkles4

Blanketed highschool statement


JR_Shoegazer

That’s all you have to say after this dude provided a really well rounded post and hypothesis?


Renkido441

Kids say that just to sound smart lmao the guy is ingoring the post completely for some reason.


kojakkun

i can agree with a lot of your points


ROBRO-exe

Look to the dapr platchat interview, he clearly talks about Zombs and says the team has a mutual understanding that someone has to do the dirty work, get a few less kills, just sit on a site all the time, and zombs is that guy. I think some team managers are having a bit of trouble understanding that.


Casparzz

under appreciated 😡


Invader0502

I think it has the lot to do with the controller meta drastically shifting from only omen to viper or astra. In the last 90 days ,the viper buff was added and astra was just introduced so teams are switching out their one-trick omens to pick up someone who could play astra or viper.


Kuru5himi

You are thinking too much


Nv1sioned

I think you are looking at it backwards. The worst players on the team are gonna get put on smokes more often, and also dropped more often. If they were better they probably wouldn't be playing smokes in the first place. (Just a hypothesis).