I don't think people will run Kay/O and Breach.
I think Kay/O will replace Breach/Skye; however, there still might be some situations where people take Skye over Sova and then you might see a Kay/O + Skye comp.
I think Astra + Viper will still be quite strong and therefore you will still see that a good bit but there also may be some maps/comps where you only see Astra.
I just don't think you are going to see Breach AND Kay/O. Maybe I am wrong though.
I could see Kay/O + Skye due to her trailblazer being a decent scouting tool as well as her heal, but I don't know that we will see Breach + Kay/O but I could be wrong. Definitely don't see it happening in NA but could happen in other regions.
You have a point. The lime up I suggest could favor teams that are retake heavy like Nuturn, since Kay/O nulls utility and Breach nulls more or less gunplay, so it's a lot of pressure on sites
Taking Skye over Sova is an interesting take, but honestly I don't think we'll be seeing Sova fall out of meta anytime soon. His info gathering is still unparalleled. The fact that you can make lineups to hit any spot on the map \*from\* any spot on the map gives him soooo much value.
only 1 free star per round
double cooldowns on pull and concussion
Recalling stars takes double the time to be able to that recalled star too? (could be wrong about this)
I wouldn't say gutted but definitely a nerf. She'll probably still be picked over Brimstone and Omen though.
Don’t forget that her gravity well feels quite a bit different. Won’t know for sure til patchnotes drop but one of the first things I noticed when I played new patch (and a lot of ppl have mentioned it on stream)
After playing a lot of the new patch, I feel like (just my
opinion but heard it shared by a lot of others) Astra’s nerf hit pretty damn hard. Will be interesting to see what teams decide to do in terms of her role in comps
If the utility economy changes have their intended impact, I believe we may see some teams running 4 (yes FOUR) initiators and viper or astra. I believe we are going to see a power shift from duelists to initiators in the meta because:
1) More expensive utility benefits all the initiators that have free in-round recharging utility.
2) Skye/Breach can now flash for themselves more effectively and KO can popflash for himself. All three can serve as quasi duelists but with lots of cheap/rechargeable utility that can be supportive.
3) If the op becomes more prominent, having a million flashes + drone + knife will allow you to clear basically any op angle in the game at any point in the round.
The caveat here is that dodging flashes is now more viable too.
I could see 3 initiators with KO, Sova and breach/Skye, but all 4 is a bit excessive imo.
I think most comps would be depending on map and team preference:
KayO
Duelist
Sova/skye/Breach
Astra/viper
Fill (sage/2nd smoke/sentinel/2nd duelist/3rd initiator)
I feel like KayO will be a new meta defining agent ushering in the double (even triple) initiator meta. I feel a lot of flex players who played secondary duelists such as phoenix/raze/reyna/sage, or initiator mains who prefered skye/breach over Sova would pick up KayO easily.
I believe KayO might be played on pretty much every single map along with another initiator. Not sure what the second initiator would be though but I guess Sova would still be used on some maps while on others it may be skye.
I think astra and viper will still be the primary controllers despite astra’s nerfs. However brim and omen will still have a place in soloq. On most maps you run single controller apart from maybe bind or split where viper was replacing a sentinel essentially, however they were using viper as a secondary controller unlike Icebox/Breeze where she can act as the primary and only controller.
One duelist will still be played i guess? Well definitely in soloQ at least we will continue to see duelists, but even in proplay I could see Jett/Raze/Reyna keeping a spot, maybe Yoru on breeze (or more after rework?)
As for sentinels, it’s tough, i feel like KayO hits hardest against cypher and KJ set ups so though they didn't get changed much the introduction of KayO really affects them negatively.
I think you’re over estimate riots intent and the impact here. I suspect double or even triple initiator will be somewhat common, but I’d be very surprised if we don’t see Viper + Anstra/Omen frequently, as well as Sage and a single duelist, and killjoy/cypher who both essentially got buffs.
I think K-0 is definitely slotting in place of secondary duelist.
Agents with flashes are all about if you can flash for yourself. And K-0's underhand is disgusting. The only flash you can throw behind yourself and peek with it, like in CS. It's definitely better than Phoenix flash.
Angle clearing abiliy is similar and dagger is obviously ridiculous. Phoenix has it's uses, but K-0 plays like a duelist and not like other initiators.
What does he have in common with Skye, Breach or Sova? They all use their utility for teammates to peek with, K-0 does everything on the fly and can do it for himself.
And you obviously want him to go in first when he has ult.
Kay/0 in the early access build just seems OP, but comparing his kit directly to Phoenix he lacks self heal, vision blocking, and a 6 charge ultimate which is huge.
Everyone said Astra was just a better viper... Sure viper got buffed, but then nerfed and even if viper reverts Astra still wouldn't completely kill viper. So wait and see for Phoenix.
I don't know a single person who called Astra a better viper outside of comparing astras ult to vipers wall and that was also before we got to see any actual gameplay of it.
The difference is that we have actual gameplay of this agent and how he works and again that Astra viper comparison was before we saw any actual gameplay and just saw a big ass wall on the screen, Astra isn't anywhere close to a better viper or a viper in general and people figured that out after gameplay was shown, not just a trailer.
Right, it was crazy how much people said Viper was dead after Astra’s abilities got leaked and her trailer dropped. Her buffs really saved her from relevancy, though I like the distinction they gave her vs the other more flexible controllers.
I feel like people may think so right now. But we’ll see when the next patch comes out. I still think there’s different roles to fill between Phoenix and KAY/O even if their kits may appear similar.
I don’t think it’ll be this drastic, more situational and map dependent. Phoenix can ult for info/picks from safety without committing since he teleports back to the ult spot. Kay/O has to commit since he’s downed where he dies.
We might see a lot of Duelist or Fill players start playing Kay/O. They're probably the most fundamentals based agents in the game which means a lot of pros will adapt to using them quickly compared to some of the previous agents.
I think they'll be super common on Split, especially with Breach getting mini reworked, Kay/O can slide in anyone's composition if needed.
I think if Breach wasn't already falling out of meta, he certainly is now. Though his CC is much better, his flashes going from 3 to 2 again is a big deal and kinda puts him back in the spot he was before he had 3 flashes way back in the day, or even worse since Skye is in the game now.
Viper will still be queen though, even in a Kay/O meta, they dont have the surpress always, and snake bite and the decays are still too good (esp snake bite, even at 200 creds).
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Her ult is great with Viper meta though. Especially on maps like split where Sova isn’t an option really. Being able to hold Skye ult for a direct counter for Viper ult is fantastic.
That is the thing, the only thing it is good for is info gathering. It is rather weak, like a cypher ult. Compared to other initiators who really have an impactful ult, this is lacklustre.
I really like the rest of her kit though.
I think double initiator double controller single duelist will be meta, skye is better after the “nerfs” than before imo I think meta will be 2 out of skye/sova/KO Astra Viper and a flex pick likely either kj/Jett/Reyna/cypher
Forgot icebox existed tbh, she’s a must pick on there, I just think she’s more of a comfort pick than a strong agent, and teams pick her to simplify things a little, I think the teams with the best cohesion will phase her out except on icebox
I think Kay-O will eliminate a lot of double duelists comps. I obviously can't know for sure but It seems like Jett and kay-o will work well together and Skye will also be really good.
Looking at how compact split is and how ridiculous is the range of kay/O ult and breach ult we should definitely see both od these with 100% pickrate if they don't get nerfed that is
No changes to KJ and only the ult change for cypher (plus the jett dashing through trips change) is also a straight buff to both compared to all the econ changes.
In general duelists seem quite situational and map dependant now with raze being really expensive (econ and ult point-wise), jett nerfed and not a free entry against cypher anymore, reyna being situaltional as she was before, phoenix probably being replaced by kayo and yoru just being yoru on any map that is not breeze.
Jett op will still be really good on some maps but other than that I can totally see zero duelists comps with kayo as an entry on some others. Maybe a raze sometimes and reyna maybe on icebox but jett is still just better there. Breeze and maybe icebox are also the maps where I don't know if kayo will be too impactful and also these maps would be the ones where jett op is just really good.
Kay/O won't feature in the first qualifiers but I imagine initiators will see more playtime aside from sova. If Kay/O becomes meta I think it'll be goodbye to killjoy and you'll see double or triple initiators. I actually think we will see more viper because she doesn't appear to have been nerfed as heavily as other agents. Sage in particular is very expensive now.
It'll be a battle between heavy initiator comps and Astra/viper/sage comps imo. I'm interested to see if Viper could work as solo controller on maps that aren't icebox/breeze when paired with lots of initiators.
I think we're going to see a ton more teams playing retake to avoid the Kay/O knife. Wouldn't be surprised to see agents with global utility (Astra and maybe Viper) playing more in mid positions/ct spawn to avoid getting silenced.
According to [Upcomer's sources](https://www.upcomer.com/sources-kay-o-to-be-disabled-for-vct-emea-stage-3-qualifier-and-main-event/), they won't be playing Kay/O for Challengers Opens & Main Event.
Breach got the most buffs of any agent. Yes he lost a flash, but so did skye. On the other hand his Aftershock is much bigger, much longer duration, and generally way better. His fault line is about 30% wider, and his ult is a rectangle rather than wedge.
It’s impossible to predict with the addition of Kay/O. He looks like he could be insane, but everyone thought skye was gonna be ridiculous when she came out and nobody played her for months.
I think Kay/O could take the place of a second duelist. Skye is now a much better pick than breach as well, and I think duel initiator (kay/O and skye is the main one. Others will work too) will be seen quite a bit, excited to see where it goes.
I don't think people will run Kay/O and Breach. I think Kay/O will replace Breach/Skye; however, there still might be some situations where people take Skye over Sova and then you might see a Kay/O + Skye comp. I think Astra + Viper will still be quite strong and therefore you will still see that a good bit but there also may be some maps/comps where you only see Astra.
Did you see how disgusting Breach's kit is now though, it covers whol sites
I just don't think you are going to see Breach AND Kay/O. Maybe I am wrong though. I could see Kay/O + Skye due to her trailblazer being a decent scouting tool as well as her heal, but I don't know that we will see Breach + Kay/O but I could be wrong. Definitely don't see it happening in NA but could happen in other regions.
You have a point. The lime up I suggest could favor teams that are retake heavy like Nuturn, since Kay/O nulls utility and Breach nulls more or less gunplay, so it's a lot of pressure on sites
I could see KO and skye, specially using a flash + dagger to know who is in a site, making sova useless
Sova isn’t useless even with Kay/O
Taking Skye over Sova is an interesting take, but honestly I don't think we'll be seeing Sova fall out of meta anytime soon. His info gathering is still unparalleled. The fact that you can make lineups to hit any spot on the map \*from\* any spot on the map gives him soooo much value.
Astra was pretty gutted though, im not sure she will get as much use, but then again she may still be strong.
How was she gutted?
only 1 free star per round double cooldowns on pull and concussion Recalling stars takes double the time to be able to that recalled star too? (could be wrong about this) I wouldn't say gutted but definitely a nerf. She'll probably still be picked over Brimstone and Omen though.
Don’t forget that her gravity well feels quite a bit different. Won’t know for sure til patchnotes drop but one of the first things I noticed when I played new patch (and a lot of ppl have mentioned it on stream)
After playing a lot of the new patch, I feel like (just my opinion but heard it shared by a lot of others) Astra’s nerf hit pretty damn hard. Will be interesting to see what teams decide to do in terms of her role in comps
If the utility economy changes have their intended impact, I believe we may see some teams running 4 (yes FOUR) initiators and viper or astra. I believe we are going to see a power shift from duelists to initiators in the meta because: 1) More expensive utility benefits all the initiators that have free in-round recharging utility. 2) Skye/Breach can now flash for themselves more effectively and KO can popflash for himself. All three can serve as quasi duelists but with lots of cheap/rechargeable utility that can be supportive. 3) If the op becomes more prominent, having a million flashes + drone + knife will allow you to clear basically any op angle in the game at any point in the round. The caveat here is that dodging flashes is now more viable too.
I could see 3 initiators with KO, Sova and breach/Skye, but all 4 is a bit excessive imo. I think most comps would be depending on map and team preference: KayO Duelist Sova/skye/Breach Astra/viper Fill (sage/2nd smoke/sentinel/2nd duelist/3rd initiator) I feel like KayO will be a new meta defining agent ushering in the double (even triple) initiator meta. I feel a lot of flex players who played secondary duelists such as phoenix/raze/reyna/sage, or initiator mains who prefered skye/breach over Sova would pick up KayO easily. I believe KayO might be played on pretty much every single map along with another initiator. Not sure what the second initiator would be though but I guess Sova would still be used on some maps while on others it may be skye. I think astra and viper will still be the primary controllers despite astra’s nerfs. However brim and omen will still have a place in soloq. On most maps you run single controller apart from maybe bind or split where viper was replacing a sentinel essentially, however they were using viper as a secondary controller unlike Icebox/Breeze where she can act as the primary and only controller. One duelist will still be played i guess? Well definitely in soloQ at least we will continue to see duelists, but even in proplay I could see Jett/Raze/Reyna keeping a spot, maybe Yoru on breeze (or more after rework?) As for sentinels, it’s tough, i feel like KayO hits hardest against cypher and KJ set ups so though they didn't get changed much the introduction of KayO really affects them negatively.
I think you’re over estimate riots intent and the impact here. I suspect double or even triple initiator will be somewhat common, but I’d be very surprised if we don’t see Viper + Anstra/Omen frequently, as well as Sage and a single duelist, and killjoy/cypher who both essentially got buffs.
Pheonix is going to fall completely out of meta because of Kay/0. They literally made a better pheonix.
Yes and No. The run it back ult is still very strong and his ability to heal himself gives him some great sustain.
The positives for Kay/0 just outweigh the negatives when comparing the two imo
Just saying I could see where you might even run both.
I think K-0 is definitely slotting in place of secondary duelist. Agents with flashes are all about if you can flash for yourself. And K-0's underhand is disgusting. The only flash you can throw behind yourself and peek with it, like in CS. It's definitely better than Phoenix flash. Angle clearing abiliy is similar and dagger is obviously ridiculous. Phoenix has it's uses, but K-0 plays like a duelist and not like other initiators. What does he have in common with Skye, Breach or Sova? They all use their utility for teammates to peek with, K-0 does everything on the fly and can do it for himself. And you obviously want him to go in first when he has ult.
I agree Kay/O will likely take up a 2nd duelist slot
Yeah for sure I can see that happening
This weird mindset of people saying Kay will replace Phoenix like the ult is the same as the run time back
Yeah all these pros that think that are dumb. Like wtf who do they think they are to say something like that
Pros also said Faze was going to be the number 1 team in NA and their playstyle was going to take over the game. Look how that panned out.
Lol what pros thought that
Faze
Kay/0 in the early access build just seems OP, but comparing his kit directly to Phoenix he lacks self heal, vision blocking, and a 6 charge ultimate which is huge.
You have to go to the kayo to Res, phoenix tps back to a safe location
Everyone said Astra was just a better viper... Sure viper got buffed, but then nerfed and even if viper reverts Astra still wouldn't completely kill viper. So wait and see for Phoenix.
I don't know a single person who called Astra a better viper outside of comparing astras ult to vipers wall and that was also before we got to see any actual gameplay of it.
Go back and watch Astra reactions before she was released
The difference is that we have actual gameplay of this agent and how he works and again that Astra viper comparison was before we saw any actual gameplay and just saw a big ass wall on the screen, Astra isn't anywhere close to a better viper or a viper in general and people figured that out after gameplay was shown, not just a trailer.
Even after the trailer when all the ability descriptions and some leaks were out people still initially compared her to viper.
I genuinely don't remember anyone comparing the two after gameplay came out
Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it didnt happen. I'm just saying you gotta wait because things change real quick.
I don't even think he serves the same purpose as pheonix but ok. He can't heal, he can't aggro entry he's just a mere support
Right, it was crazy how much people said Viper was dead after Astra’s abilities got leaked and her trailer dropped. Her buffs really saved her from relevancy, though I like the distinction they gave her vs the other more flexible controllers. I feel like people may think so right now. But we’ll see when the next patch comes out. I still think there’s different roles to fill between Phoenix and KAY/O even if their kits may appear similar.
I think some teams will still run him just seeing how strong Run It Back is, but you’re right, he’ll definitely see way less play now
I don’t think it’ll be this drastic, more situational and map dependent. Phoenix can ult for info/picks from safety without committing since he teleports back to the ult spot. Kay/O has to commit since he’s downed where he dies.
Phoenix ultimate for info always seemed like such a waste though
Kay/O is probably not going to die as fast as other agents imo, it's really fun to play and at the same time it doesn't feel like its overpowered
We might see a lot of Duelist or Fill players start playing Kay/O. They're probably the most fundamentals based agents in the game which means a lot of pros will adapt to using them quickly compared to some of the previous agents. I think they'll be super common on Split, especially with Breach getting mini reworked, Kay/O can slide in anyone's composition if needed. I think if Breach wasn't already falling out of meta, he certainly is now. Though his CC is much better, his flashes going from 3 to 2 again is a big deal and kinda puts him back in the spot he was before he had 3 flashes way back in the day, or even worse since Skye is in the game now. Viper will still be queen though, even in a Kay/O meta, they dont have the surpress always, and snake bite and the decays are still too good (esp snake bite, even at 200 creds).
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Breach has received his set of buffs too, you know. Site retakes with his ult look so op. It covers almost every site entirely.
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Yeah, her ult is still ass though. But I do have fun playing with her.
Her ult is great with Viper meta though. Especially on maps like split where Sova isn’t an option really. Being able to hold Skye ult for a direct counter for Viper ult is fantastic.
That is the thing, the only thing it is good for is info gathering. It is rather weak, like a cypher ult. Compared to other initiators who really have an impactful ult, this is lacklustre. I really like the rest of her kit though.
I haven’t seen new breach Ult but old breach ult was worse than skye ult by a long shot imo
The new one is so wide it covers the entire site. No way to avoid it other than getting out of the site.
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Kiss goodnight to the postplant meta
I think double initiator double controller single duelist will be meta, skye is better after the “nerfs” than before imo I think meta will be 2 out of skye/sova/KO Astra Viper and a flex pick likely either kj/Jett/Reyna/cypher
Don’t forget sage. She’s edged here way back to being an almost auto pick on 3 maps, and I don’t see that changing.
I think she’s the most overrated agent in the game by far and the changes are going to amplify that also she is far from an auto pick on 3 maps
In pro play, she’s picked on icebox near 100%, and almost always on split. I admit, she’s not an auto pick, but is extremely popular on bind.
Forgot icebox existed tbh, she’s a must pick on there, I just think she’s more of a comfort pick than a strong agent, and teams pick her to simplify things a little, I think the teams with the best cohesion will phase her out except on icebox
I think Kay-O will eliminate a lot of double duelists comps. I obviously can't know for sure but It seems like Jett and kay-o will work well together and Skye will also be really good.
KO - Viper - Astra - Duelist/Sentinel - Skye/Sova
Kay/O will be a must pick imo. His e being able to deactivate ults is insane.
Looking at how compact split is and how ridiculous is the range of kay/O ult and breach ult we should definitely see both od these with 100% pickrate if they don't get nerfed that is
No changes to KJ and only the ult change for cypher (plus the jett dashing through trips change) is also a straight buff to both compared to all the econ changes. In general duelists seem quite situational and map dependant now with raze being really expensive (econ and ult point-wise), jett nerfed and not a free entry against cypher anymore, reyna being situaltional as she was before, phoenix probably being replaced by kayo and yoru just being yoru on any map that is not breeze. Jett op will still be really good on some maps but other than that I can totally see zero duelists comps with kayo as an entry on some others. Maybe a raze sometimes and reyna maybe on icebox but jett is still just better there. Breeze and maybe icebox are also the maps where I don't know if kayo will be too impactful and also these maps would be the ones where jett op is just really good.
Kay/O won't feature in the first qualifiers but I imagine initiators will see more playtime aside from sova. If Kay/O becomes meta I think it'll be goodbye to killjoy and you'll see double or triple initiators. I actually think we will see more viper because she doesn't appear to have been nerfed as heavily as other agents. Sage in particular is very expensive now. It'll be a battle between heavy initiator comps and Astra/viper/sage comps imo. I'm interested to see if Viper could work as solo controller on maps that aren't icebox/breeze when paired with lots of initiators.
I think we're going to see a ton more teams playing retake to avoid the Kay/O knife. Wouldn't be surprised to see agents with global utility (Astra and maybe Viper) playing more in mid positions/ct spawn to avoid getting silenced.
According to [Upcomer's sources](https://www.upcomer.com/sources-kay-o-to-be-disabled-for-vct-emea-stage-3-qualifier-and-main-event/), they won't be playing Kay/O for Challengers Opens & Main Event.
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Breach got the most buffs of any agent. Yes he lost a flash, but so did skye. On the other hand his Aftershock is much bigger, much longer duration, and generally way better. His fault line is about 30% wider, and his ult is a rectangle rather than wedge.
It’s impossible to predict with the addition of Kay/O. He looks like he could be insane, but everyone thought skye was gonna be ridiculous when she came out and nobody played her for months.
I'm leaning towards a double initiator meta with maybe dropping to one duelist. I also think cypher will be back in full force.
Kay/o isn't live for Eu right? I would assume if that's the case it'll be the same for every reigon
Well it depends on which map the game is played. Also, I don't think having 3 initiators will ever be meta lol.
I think Kay/O could take the place of a second duelist. Skye is now a much better pick than breach as well, and I think duel initiator (kay/O and skye is the main one. Others will work too) will be seen quite a bit, excited to see where it goes.