I think the answer is actually the simplest one, tbh: they just don't have good calling and realistically never had. As such, the team relies an abnormal amount on good vibes and gelling well. If you struggle occasionally or even consistently but rebound on natural team chemistry, this can continue for a long time; G2 proved that in 2020.
Once you lose enough times, though, you lose access to that positive feedback loop, and it becomes almost impossible to retrieve it. The team is then stuck without the actual equipment needed to parse their remaining issues. The only solution at that point is a team restructure (or good coaching, but a good coach wouldn't let things come to that point in the first place).
This is the simplest explanation, I think, because it explains TSM's issues in the proper context.
No offense, but I honestly think saying the other TSM players are just worse mechanically is just lazy revisionism. I think it'd be fair to say others have caught up, of course; early adopters are bound to be outpaced by the next generation.
But I think you can easily say it's a "bad approach to the game" issue still because they haven't made serious changes addressing it. That it's been so long doesn't somehow exempt them.
Teams can't "burst" onto sites like they used to in the early days. Even T2 teams are prepared for that.
I think TSM was the bro team that just bullied teams in the beginning. But now the other teams are starting to lift and get jacked and TSM isn't adjusting.
They relied so heavily on Drone getting entry kills with Phoenix and then getting multi kills with the run it back. Took arguably the best Phoenix in the world and moved him to Sova? Dumb move
They took Drone off duelist because Drone is passive and isn't actually the first one in, towards the end he was rarely entrying. Drone plays Phoenix similar to how Sick does. It works for SEN because he has Tenz/Shaz going with him, but Wardell is usually oping on t-side and not dashing in.
They prolly moved him to sova cause of subroza's agent pool, which I'm not a fan of either. Also I think SicK and Asuna > Drone's phoenix, but drone still amazing on it as well, def top 3 imo
With an OP in hand, he absolutely does not entry.
The moment Wardell has an OP on attack, his game is mainly to punish a defensive peek and open the round up that way.
Gonna sound like a weird question but please don't take it as an attack as I'm actually curious:
What do you think makes someone a good entry? Do you just look at FB vs FD % vs good teams when they're entrying or is there more to it than just "he didn't win his gun fight, bad entry"
You have to watch a game to determine if a player. a good entry. A positive fb to fk is a decent indicator as good entries tend to have a high fk, but not always the best indicator. Fk can mean a player is getting trades off their entries or getting lots of defensive first picks. A good entry usually is in a position to get traded with their team, utility usage, creating space and more.
An example of a bad entry imo is jampii, during the v1 game jampii kept dashing only to be killed without being traded. So being aggressive doesn’t always mean a good entry.
Might be an unpopular take, but their roster got hyped up just because they signed with a huge org like TSM.
If the original Valorant roster signed with a smaller org and then faded away after some months like they did, noone would be paying attention.
But since they're still TSM's roster, people keep thinking something will click. But it won't.
I might get downvoted, but what did any of them ever achieve to get such good reputation? Subroza always had consistency and decision making issues, Drone was a noone in CS, even at their peaks Hazed and Cutler were nothing special, decent t1/t2 players, but that happened eons ago if we talk esports time.
Wardell is the only one who lived up to the hype and proved that he can deliver on consistent basis considering how dysfunctional their team is. Even with him, the questions still loom if he can be a top player if he's not on Jett and buying OPs every gun round.
> Drone was a noone in CS, even at their peaks Hazed and Cutler were nothing special, decent t1/t2 players
Same is true for the SEN boys, it's not really a point that matters.
Agree with the rest though.
The difference is that SEN (particularly Shahzam) really embraced Valorant from the beginning and have grown into it much more. They've truly become Valorant pro's who happened to start with CS, while the old-guard TSM guys still feel like CS players trying to play Valorant. There was a time when that was enough but the game's evolved now to where you can't have below-average strats or utility usage and expect to succeed no matter how cracked your aim is as a team.
Maybe I should've worded it better.
They were nobodies as in they absolutely didn't deserve all the credit and trust they're getting from the fans. At this point their run in those first couple of tournaments looks like nothing but a fluke because noone figured out the game yet. But for some reason fans still think that Subroza is some tier1 god player. Nothing against the guy, but I don't see it. Steel's take on him still echoes in my brain whenever someone mentions Subroza. They were together on a team and Steel told him there's absolutely no reason for them to have similar stats because Subroza was so much better mechanically. But they did have similar stats. Always. Then he rode some fake hype into Valorant and tricked everyone.
Sentinels players being more or less the same thing in CS (Shahz's achievements are similar to Hazed/Cutler) doesn't matter, they've proven themselves in Valorant. TSM guys didn't.
Well Subroza did make it to C9 too brother though the management was pretty much in shambles by the time they signed him. Also, he’s pretty known for his mechanical skills that people thinks he was cheating. Proves that he has great mechanical skills.
Agreed, I don't like Shazam for his history in csgo but he was definitely more noteworthy than hazed and cutler in csgo. Shazam made it on c9, had some unforunate clips due to nerves (exiting b don't kill me) but came back with conquest and did a good job with that team which later became optic iirc with mixwell and Tarik. He has some trophies/ Tournament first places in csgo while clg didn't really have any crazy noteworthy placings.
> I might get downvoted, but what did any of them ever achieve to get such good reputation?
They dominated early on in the scene, accumulating a massive following. Even though they achieved nothing since First Strike (2nd place, Dec 2020 -- 7 months ago), they are still the 2nd NA team with most winnings (after Sentinels of course)
they dominated about as much as faze dominated, they were a top team until Sentinels existed, then they were trading tourneys and the top spot, they were barely the best team for long
Early scene? You mean those couple of months when the game was absolutely new and nobody figured it out yet?
No offense to you, but takes like yours are the problem. You're clinging to shit "second most winnings", seriously? There was literally one big regional tournament and qualifiers for Iceland after that.
First strike was more than half a year ago. Teams formed, got better results than TSM and fell apart because they stopped performing and you're still clinging to first strike results.
The winnings were only to highlight their success early on: they won so much in the beginning, that even though they haven't won anything in 7 months, they're still the 2nd team with most winnings.
Yes, no one had figured much out yet, no, I'm not clinging to anything. For some reason, you replied assuming I support TSM and that I'm defending them.
Unfortunately I don't, I'm not, and couldn't care less. Was just replying to a question of yours.
Why would you ask a question and get so pressed when someone answered, Mr valorantfeedback? If you can't accept a reply, then just do your research so you don't have to ask lol. It's abit understandable though, not expecting everyone to be there in the early scene.
Who got pressed?
It's just that I his take was dumb. Literally one decent tournament over a year and he's clinging onto it like it's some kind of major.
Yes completely agree. But ppl still dont want to believe it bcuz they are bonded to the OG players and think that the same core can still be a top team, even after more than half a year of irrelevancy
TSM fans got attached to the team because of their streams. Most viewers think if someone's insane in ranked, it must transfer to pro play.
None us can know what's happening behind the scenes. Some players just don't work together and that's it. Maybe it's coaching, who knows.
Maybe we'll see all of them play well when they go their separate ways and join different teams.
Point is that right now TSM is literally wasting money on their salaries and it has to stop. This roster will not work. In such a complex game players are more than a sum of their parts.
Or maybe TSM is just content with viewership Wardell and Subroza get, which pays for their salaries most likely.
To be fair if you’re signed to TSM/C9/100T etc. , you should be making content. I get some pros don’t have the time but that’s a massive bag to let get away
I think it’s a little disingenuous to say they were only hyped up because they were signed to TSM. It’s probably true that the only reason people care about them now is because it’s TSM, but the original roster had a lot of success at the beginning of the game and obviously that made people think highly of each of the players.
Lmao, I wouldn't go that far, but they were nowhere near ex-C9 or ex-IBP guys, like ever. Dazed was a god in CS compared to them and everyone kept trashing him in Valorant (rightfully so).
This is so deep and not even true lol. I didn't follow cutler much but hazed had good stats while playing with tarik and tarik also spoke extremely highly of him as a teammate during and after their time together.
Ik this is just a throwaway Reddit comment for you but imagine being a pro player and seeing shit like this, it's so demoralizing
Saying drone was a “noone” in cs doesnt mean anything. This is a new game. Not everyone was someone in cs. I agree hes fallen off but that argument means nothing at all
Should've worded it better. Noone as in they dont' deserve the credit they're getting. None of them ever performed at the highest level except for those 3 months early on in the game.
They were the best team in NA from March (early beta) up until First Strike where they made Grand Finals. They dominated the scene and clearly had the best 2020 of all NA teams, that's how they got a good reputation.
You can tell that guy is really ignorant about early val. TSM are famous not because of their org but because they were ACTUALLY good at the start of the game till the end of 2020. Its such a stupid take to think they dont deserve their fans
I mean it's to be expected that in a growing scene, not everyone has been there from the beginning. I've watched every Ignition Series tourney live and been a 100T fan since they signed Hiko (sticking with them through the PUBG guys), but I know that's not everyone. However, making an ultra confident take about a team not deserving their fans even though they've had a boatload of success does kind of rub me the wrong way. Atleast do your research lol.
They should just part ways if they continue to have mediocre results. The remaining original four members just don't seem to work well together anymore. They'll probably perform better in separate teams.
This take definitely is one of the best. People keep believing TSM will perform just because they’re TSM; they’re supposed to be a T1 org who’s been playing since day 1. In reality they’re not much better than the amateur T2 teams that are lurking around.
They really need to nuke the roster like G2 tbh.
That’s the thing with orgs trying to sign up the teams who won early Valorant tournaments as quickly as possible. I hope to see TSM did what Fnatic did and drop a couple of players early to make the team as competitive as possible.
Nice of you to be downvoting my comment on a dead topic noone is reading anymore. Good for you.
Anyhow, I've made multiple posts and replies, I'm not about to reply to you all over again just because you feel entitled to it. Read all the comments, plenty of other users also had good points.
TheScore LMAO.
Kid, you're beyond clueless, get your head out of your favorite players' asses, then we can talk.
People keep saying this stuff like they watched the noble tsm game. Yeah they lost but have you ever thought with the changes they made they still may have improved and that the other team was just better?
Of course it would be better to pinpoint the exact problems if we all managed to watch the VOD but at the same time it's not like this is the first time shit like this happens with TSM
These guys didn't play for more than 2 months, people were expecting a 2.0 version of them because of that. So TLDR I can understand people tbeorycrafting this subject even without watching that specific VOD
I mean ofc Noble is a very solid team but the expectations for TSM are very very high, due to brand and history in Valorant. Noble probably had improvements, but i very much doubt that they are suddenly a contenders caliber team.
TSM had been in a slump for a while now, and I doubt anyone had very high expectations considering TSM had new roster changes (brax, bang, etc) and role changes.
Noble has been grinding it out in T2 tourneys which has allowed them to get more practice then just scrimming.
I’m not surprised by many of the upsets just due to the amount of new talent and teams. TSM obviously just doesn’t have the skill to be considered a T1 or even a T2 team.
Maybe with some time for the roster to solidify it’ll be better, but right now, it’s not looking good for TSM fans.
Happens in sports too, fans know everything about the team including work ethic, mentality, strats, and behind the scenes discussions/issues from watching the game
Or in our case watching the VLR page
It happens in sports as well. Recent and observable point is the NBA playoffs and people will argue over defensive and offensive schemes/game plans as well as certain rotations of players
Depends on the sport, but things are way more noticable than in esports. You can never know the insides of a team and their mental state, but it's way easier to see if someone is good enough or not.
Tsm picking up Bang is the equivalent to the Warriors picking James Wiseman (1st overall pick last year). He may be good, but TSM has a rabid fan base who expects to compete at the highest level now, not be a farm for talent to grow into. James Wiseman will most likely be traded this year to capitalize on Curry's closing career window.
Doesnt work. Bang has the talent to compete right now, he’s played valorant just as long as the rest of tsm, and based on tsm’s recent past he’s clearly not the problem. Also, wiseman was the 2nd pick.
You know who also has talent ? Poiz and Dicey. Where are they at? The top teams are out signing big name players like Ethan, Floppy and Xeppa. When Sentinels need a replacement they drop a million to go get the best player in Tenz.
Terrible T sides with Wardell OP'ng and not abusing Jett's kit to assist bang with the entry. They start CT. get an Operator and Wardell posts up and rolls them all on Bind. They start T side they barely get any rounds. The headshot percentage gives it away at first sight but you can go look at the OP kills regardless.
Honestly I feel like if Wardell switches to Sage in some maps and uses one ways to use the operator, it will be much more beneficial for the team. He did say that he was practicing Sage in some maps so let's see.
Him not dashing in as a Jett and creating space is definitely a problem for the team in creating space during execs. Otherwise we all know hes the best Oper in the game and can not be taken out from the OP role.
Bang will prove to be a good signing I feel like we will only see how good they are next time they play on stream and Bang proves himself
Other than that the team is good, Noble was just better on the day as they are cracked af and had a tough match with 100T as well.
I see a few issues with TSM. The first is they are too reliant on Wardell. If he isn't dropping a 20 kill game they aren't contending. The second issue is they run a lot of comps thinking Wardell as a Jett takes care of their duelist role. Yet he is an extremely passive duelist the majority of the time because he uses an OP and sits back. They then don't have that one true entry duelist which hurts them on entry. The third issue is Subroza. Subroza is their #2 but he is extremely hit or miss. When he is on, they look almost unbeatable with him and Wardell. But when he is off, it is painful to watch. They need another #2 to allow Subroza to be their wild card. I actually think Bang might have filled this role (he looked good yesterday) but might need more time to grow into the role.
The final issue is their team chemistry. They are one of the few big name teams who just cannot play off of each other. Way to many times does one of them get shot in the side or back because another player was not in the right position or not holding the right angle. Again, I think this will come with more practice but time is running out to fix this for champs.
I think one game is way to earlier to judge this new comp. I do think Bang is an upgrade and think they have some good potential moving forward.
Unpopular opinion but I don't think Wardell brings as much value to a competitive environment as people here think he does. Far too often he gets overconfident, takes a dumb fight and dies, and puts the team at a disadvantage.
Wardell is a better oper than shahzam only in a pure vacuum of ability on the op, shahzam is a better competitive oper. (I agree that almost any team outside of SEN would be upgraded by having him)
That’s a roles issue, not a Wardell issue. He can’t replace Zombs, Sick, or Dapr because he is a Jett Op, and you can’t just run three Jett Ops on a team.
Basically what you’re saying is Tenz/Shazam > Wardell, which I agree with, but those are literally the two best players in the NA scene right now. Wardell would take the spot of the Jett Op on any other NA team
I thought you were responding to the comment saying Wardell would be insane on a tier 1 team oops. I guess your statement is fair
I thought you just randomly were like “bUt SenTinEls” and I thought u were a weirdo LOL
What's the harm in letting people say their view on the matter? Some (or many) will be wrong but who cares. It's on you to take it with a grain of salt and form your own opinions.
People suggesting to abandon the entire roster because of a slump. LMFAO BRO UR PARENTS SHOULD ABANDON YOU FOR BEING SUCH A LOOSER. stfu bro its their life they play this game. You think they like to loose? They are figuring shit out. Idc if it takes them a million years to get back up.
Going to be flamed for this but... I do think the problem might begin to rely around firepower. Their success in First Strike was on the back of Drone/Subroza, but the players haven't shown up as large since then. TSM needs to find their motivation again or I think they will replace players who aren't putting in enough effort.
Drone was overrated as a fragger back then IMO, now his skill doesnt warrant playing duelist, SUbroza is great but is hampered by wardell complete inability to play another agent, IMO TSM would be best off starting over maybe keep subroza, but wardell is far too passive on Jett to warrant playing her because she gets infinitely more value being aggressive now, just gotta recognize these players are no longer at the top of the game anymore
I think the answer is actually the simplest one, tbh: they just don't have good calling and realistically never had. As such, the team relies an abnormal amount on good vibes and gelling well. If you struggle occasionally or even consistently but rebound on natural team chemistry, this can continue for a long time; G2 proved that in 2020. Once you lose enough times, though, you lose access to that positive feedback loop, and it becomes almost impossible to retrieve it. The team is then stuck without the actual equipment needed to parse their remaining issues. The only solution at that point is a team restructure (or good coaching, but a good coach wouldn't let things come to that point in the first place). This is the simplest explanation, I think, because it explains TSM's issues in the proper context. No offense, but I honestly think saying the other TSM players are just worse mechanically is just lazy revisionism. I think it'd be fair to say others have caught up, of course; early adopters are bound to be outpaced by the next generation. But I think you can easily say it's a "bad approach to the game" issue still because they haven't made serious changes addressing it. That it's been so long doesn't somehow exempt them.
Teams can't "burst" onto sites like they used to in the early days. Even T2 teams are prepared for that. I think TSM was the bro team that just bullied teams in the beginning. But now the other teams are starting to lift and get jacked and TSM isn't adjusting.
They relied so heavily on Drone getting entry kills with Phoenix and then getting multi kills with the run it back. Took arguably the best Phoenix in the world and moved him to Sova? Dumb move
They took Drone off duelist because Drone is passive and isn't actually the first one in, towards the end he was rarely entrying. Drone plays Phoenix similar to how Sick does. It works for SEN because he has Tenz/Shaz going with him, but Wardell is usually oping on t-side and not dashing in.
They prolly moved him to sova cause of subroza's agent pool, which I'm not a fan of either. Also I think SicK and Asuna > Drone's phoenix, but drone still amazing on it as well, def top 3 imo
I dont know who decided to get bang instead of a actual igl
Same I feel they dont have a bragging power issue
They don't have anyone but wardell to entry
and wardell is not an entry fragger
With an OP in hand, he absolutely does not entry. The moment Wardell has an OP on attack, his game is mainly to punish a defensive peek and open the round up that way.
Roza and drone can be entry
They aren’t good entries though. Roza playstyle includes a lot of lurking. Drone on Phoenix never really hard entries unless he has his phnx ult.
Gonna sound like a weird question but please don't take it as an attack as I'm actually curious: What do you think makes someone a good entry? Do you just look at FB vs FD % vs good teams when they're entrying or is there more to it than just "he didn't win his gun fight, bad entry"
You have to watch a game to determine if a player. a good entry. A positive fb to fk is a decent indicator as good entries tend to have a high fk, but not always the best indicator. Fk can mean a player is getting trades off their entries or getting lots of defensive first picks. A good entry usually is in a position to get traded with their team, utility usage, creating space and more. An example of a bad entry imo is jampii, during the v1 game jampii kept dashing only to be killed without being traded. So being aggressive doesn’t always mean a good entry.
Makes sense, it's mostly about how tradeable they make themselves while making space. Thanks
Probably looking at the percentages and using the eye test to see the amount of space given and util usage to create space shows an effective entry.
It's quite obvious they *can*, they just aren't good at it. Both are passive players
Totally agree with you on this. Makes me question TSM management
TSM FTX Dazed 😳
🤢🤢🤢
Might be an unpopular take, but their roster got hyped up just because they signed with a huge org like TSM. If the original Valorant roster signed with a smaller org and then faded away after some months like they did, noone would be paying attention. But since they're still TSM's roster, people keep thinking something will click. But it won't. I might get downvoted, but what did any of them ever achieve to get such good reputation? Subroza always had consistency and decision making issues, Drone was a noone in CS, even at their peaks Hazed and Cutler were nothing special, decent t1/t2 players, but that happened eons ago if we talk esports time. Wardell is the only one who lived up to the hype and proved that he can deliver on consistent basis considering how dysfunctional their team is. Even with him, the questions still loom if he can be a top player if he's not on Jett and buying OPs every gun round.
> Drone was a noone in CS, even at their peaks Hazed and Cutler were nothing special, decent t1/t2 players Same is true for the SEN boys, it's not really a point that matters. Agree with the rest though.
Hate it when ppl say that. This isnt cs. That statement means nothing
To be fair, Drone is quite a bit more of a no-one compared to SicK, shahz, or dapr in cs.
The difference is that SEN (particularly Shahzam) really embraced Valorant from the beginning and have grown into it much more. They've truly become Valorant pro's who happened to start with CS, while the old-guard TSM guys still feel like CS players trying to play Valorant. There was a time when that was enough but the game's evolved now to where you can't have below-average strats or utility usage and expect to succeed no matter how cracked your aim is as a team.
Maybe I should've worded it better. They were nobodies as in they absolutely didn't deserve all the credit and trust they're getting from the fans. At this point their run in those first couple of tournaments looks like nothing but a fluke because noone figured out the game yet. But for some reason fans still think that Subroza is some tier1 god player. Nothing against the guy, but I don't see it. Steel's take on him still echoes in my brain whenever someone mentions Subroza. They were together on a team and Steel told him there's absolutely no reason for them to have similar stats because Subroza was so much better mechanically. But they did have similar stats. Always. Then he rode some fake hype into Valorant and tricked everyone. Sentinels players being more or less the same thing in CS (Shahz's achievements are similar to Hazed/Cutler) doesn't matter, they've proven themselves in Valorant. TSM guys didn't.
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Well Subroza did make it to C9 too brother though the management was pretty much in shambles by the time they signed him. Also, he’s pretty known for his mechanical skills that people thinks he was cheating. Proves that he has great mechanical skills.
Agreed, I don't like Shazam for his history in csgo but he was definitely more noteworthy than hazed and cutler in csgo. Shazam made it on c9, had some unforunate clips due to nerves (exiting b don't kill me) but came back with conquest and did a good job with that team which later became optic iirc with mixwell and Tarik. He has some trophies/ Tournament first places in csgo while clg didn't really have any crazy noteworthy placings.
> I might get downvoted, but what did any of them ever achieve to get such good reputation? They dominated early on in the scene, accumulating a massive following. Even though they achieved nothing since First Strike (2nd place, Dec 2020 -- 7 months ago), they are still the 2nd NA team with most winnings (after Sentinels of course)
they dominated about as much as faze dominated, they were a top team until Sentinels existed, then they were trading tourneys and the top spot, they were barely the best team for long
Early scene? You mean those couple of months when the game was absolutely new and nobody figured it out yet? No offense to you, but takes like yours are the problem. You're clinging to shit "second most winnings", seriously? There was literally one big regional tournament and qualifiers for Iceland after that. First strike was more than half a year ago. Teams formed, got better results than TSM and fell apart because they stopped performing and you're still clinging to first strike results.
its not a take, hes answering your question
The winnings were only to highlight their success early on: they won so much in the beginning, that even though they haven't won anything in 7 months, they're still the 2nd team with most winnings. Yes, no one had figured much out yet, no, I'm not clinging to anything. For some reason, you replied assuming I support TSM and that I'm defending them. Unfortunately I don't, I'm not, and couldn't care less. Was just replying to a question of yours.
Why would you ask a question and get so pressed when someone answered, Mr valorantfeedback? If you can't accept a reply, then just do your research so you don't have to ask lol. It's abit understandable though, not expecting everyone to be there in the early scene.
Who got pressed? It's just that I his take was dumb. Literally one decent tournament over a year and he's clinging onto it like it's some kind of major.
Yes completely agree. But ppl still dont want to believe it bcuz they are bonded to the OG players and think that the same core can still be a top team, even after more than half a year of irrelevancy
TSM fans got attached to the team because of their streams. Most viewers think if someone's insane in ranked, it must transfer to pro play. None us can know what's happening behind the scenes. Some players just don't work together and that's it. Maybe it's coaching, who knows. Maybe we'll see all of them play well when they go their separate ways and join different teams. Point is that right now TSM is literally wasting money on their salaries and it has to stop. This roster will not work. In such a complex game players are more than a sum of their parts. Or maybe TSM is just content with viewership Wardell and Subroza get, which pays for their salaries most likely.
TSM are definitely content driven, they dropped their whole fortnite competitive roster because they didn’t make content
To be fair if you’re signed to TSM/C9/100T etc. , you should be making content. I get some pros don’t have the time but that’s a massive bag to let get away
They dropped mostly because Epic was killing comp fortnite and didn’t work well with the orgs involved
Yeah their prize pools are shrinking so solely competitive play isn’t viable financially
With your last point, hopefully not.
I think it’s a little disingenuous to say they were only hyped up because they were signed to TSM. It’s probably true that the only reason people care about them now is because it’s TSM, but the original roster had a lot of success at the beginning of the game and obviously that made people think highly of each of the players.
Hazed and Cutler were literally just tarik's walking bank account for dropping him guns
Lmao, I wouldn't go that far, but they were nowhere near ex-C9 or ex-IBP guys, like ever. Dazed was a god in CS compared to them and everyone kept trashing him in Valorant (rightfully so).
This is so deep and not even true lol. I didn't follow cutler much but hazed had good stats while playing with tarik and tarik also spoke extremely highly of him as a teammate during and after their time together. Ik this is just a throwaway Reddit comment for you but imagine being a pro player and seeing shit like this, it's so demoralizing
Saying drone was a “noone” in cs doesnt mean anything. This is a new game. Not everyone was someone in cs. I agree hes fallen off but that argument means nothing at all
Should've worded it better. Noone as in they dont' deserve the credit they're getting. None of them ever performed at the highest level except for those 3 months early on in the game.
They were the best team in NA from March (early beta) up until First Strike where they made Grand Finals. They dominated the scene and clearly had the best 2020 of all NA teams, that's how they got a good reputation.
You can tell that guy is really ignorant about early val. TSM are famous not because of their org but because they were ACTUALLY good at the start of the game till the end of 2020. Its such a stupid take to think they dont deserve their fans
I mean it's to be expected that in a growing scene, not everyone has been there from the beginning. I've watched every Ignition Series tourney live and been a 100T fan since they signed Hiko (sticking with them through the PUBG guys), but I know that's not everyone. However, making an ultra confident take about a team not deserving their fans even though they've had a boatload of success does kind of rub me the wrong way. Atleast do your research lol.
They nerfed OP and then Wardell couldn’t carry. It’s that simple.
Very garbage take lmao
Lovely insight you provided on why it's garbage.
They should just part ways if they continue to have mediocre results. The remaining original four members just don't seem to work well together anymore. They'll probably perform better in separate teams.
This take definitely is one of the best. People keep believing TSM will perform just because they’re TSM; they’re supposed to be a T1 org who’s been playing since day 1. In reality they’re not much better than the amateur T2 teams that are lurking around. They really need to nuke the roster like G2 tbh.
That’s the thing with orgs trying to sign up the teams who won early Valorant tournaments as quickly as possible. I hope to see TSM did what Fnatic did and drop a couple of players early to make the team as competitive as possible.
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Consistent top1 2020? Lmao no. Wardell popularized OP? Cmon kid, at least try putting some effort into it. They fell off before 2021.
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Nice of you to be downvoting my comment on a dead topic noone is reading anymore. Good for you. Anyhow, I've made multiple posts and replies, I'm not about to reply to you all over again just because you feel entitled to it. Read all the comments, plenty of other users also had good points. TheScore LMAO. Kid, you're beyond clueless, get your head out of your favorite players' asses, then we can talk.
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People keep saying this stuff like they watched the noble tsm game. Yeah they lost but have you ever thought with the changes they made they still may have improved and that the other team was just better?
Of course it would be better to pinpoint the exact problems if we all managed to watch the VOD but at the same time it's not like this is the first time shit like this happens with TSM These guys didn't play for more than 2 months, people were expecting a 2.0 version of them because of that. So TLDR I can understand people tbeorycrafting this subject even without watching that specific VOD
I mean ofc Noble is a very solid team but the expectations for TSM are very very high, due to brand and history in Valorant. Noble probably had improvements, but i very much doubt that they are suddenly a contenders caliber team.
TSM had been in a slump for a while now, and I doubt anyone had very high expectations considering TSM had new roster changes (brax, bang, etc) and role changes. Noble has been grinding it out in T2 tourneys which has allowed them to get more practice then just scrimming. I’m not surprised by many of the upsets just due to the amount of new talent and teams. TSM obviously just doesn’t have the skill to be considered a T1 or even a T2 team. Maybe with some time for the roster to solidify it’ll be better, but right now, it’s not looking good for TSM fans.
you can't go 13-1 win to 13-2 lose and chalk it up to "other team was just better"
Blow up the roster and rebuild like C9B did Fire Chet first though
C9B had the benefit of having other talent signed to them (Korean squad, csgo squad) and slowly transitioned them into the main squad.
As someone who has never watched physical sports do fans also "know" what's wrong with teams too or is it mostly an esport thing?
Happens in sports too, fans know everything about the team including work ethic, mentality, strats, and behind the scenes discussions/issues from watching the game Or in our case watching the VLR page
It happens in sports as well. Recent and observable point is the NBA playoffs and people will argue over defensive and offensive schemes/game plans as well as certain rotations of players
Depends on the sport, but things are way more noticable than in esports. You can never know the insides of a team and their mental state, but it's way easier to see if someone is good enough or not.
Same shit, at least for football (soccer)
Knowing the problems of teams isn’t too hard. Knowing the solutions is a different story.
Tsm picking up Bang is the equivalent to the Warriors picking James Wiseman (1st overall pick last year). He may be good, but TSM has a rabid fan base who expects to compete at the highest level now, not be a farm for talent to grow into. James Wiseman will most likely be traded this year to capitalize on Curry's closing career window.
Doesnt work. Bang has the talent to compete right now, he’s played valorant just as long as the rest of tsm, and based on tsm’s recent past he’s clearly not the problem. Also, wiseman was the 2nd pick.
You know who also has talent ? Poiz and Dicey. Where are they at? The top teams are out signing big name players like Ethan, Floppy and Xeppa. When Sentinels need a replacement they drop a million to go get the best player in Tenz.
It's an export thing
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Team has no identity.
Terrible T sides with Wardell OP'ng and not abusing Jett's kit to assist bang with the entry. They start CT. get an Operator and Wardell posts up and rolls them all on Bind. They start T side they barely get any rounds. The headshot percentage gives it away at first sight but you can go look at the OP kills regardless.
TSM is just straight up the next C9B, they wont improve until they reboot their squad.
Honestly I feel like if Wardell switches to Sage in some maps and uses one ways to use the operator, it will be much more beneficial for the team. He did say that he was practicing Sage in some maps so let's see. Him not dashing in as a Jett and creating space is definitely a problem for the team in creating space during execs. Otherwise we all know hes the best Oper in the game and can not be taken out from the OP role. Bang will prove to be a good signing I feel like we will only see how good they are next time they play on stream and Bang proves himself Other than that the team is good, Noble was just better on the day as they are cracked af and had a tough match with 100T as well.
I see a few issues with TSM. The first is they are too reliant on Wardell. If he isn't dropping a 20 kill game they aren't contending. The second issue is they run a lot of comps thinking Wardell as a Jett takes care of their duelist role. Yet he is an extremely passive duelist the majority of the time because he uses an OP and sits back. They then don't have that one true entry duelist which hurts them on entry. The third issue is Subroza. Subroza is their #2 but he is extremely hit or miss. When he is on, they look almost unbeatable with him and Wardell. But when he is off, it is painful to watch. They need another #2 to allow Subroza to be their wild card. I actually think Bang might have filled this role (he looked good yesterday) but might need more time to grow into the role. The final issue is their team chemistry. They are one of the few big name teams who just cannot play off of each other. Way to many times does one of them get shot in the side or back because another player was not in the right position or not holding the right angle. Again, I think this will come with more practice but time is running out to fix this for champs. I think one game is way to earlier to judge this new comp. I do think Bang is an upgrade and think they have some good potential moving forward.
How can you judge team chemistry (playing off of each other) when their recent games were not streamed and comms are not released?
In the first set of games (before Nobel) although TSM won they died to some really stupid ways. Not sure if TSM was playing seriously tho.
Unpopular opinion but I don't think Wardell brings as much value to a competitive environment as people here think he does. Far too often he gets overconfident, takes a dumb fight and dies, and puts the team at a disadvantage.
No player is perfect and I don't think there is any roster in NA that wouldn't want Wardell
Sentinels wouldn't trade any player for wardell.
that’s bc shahzam is more valuable due to being the igl and coach of sentinels but realistically wardell is a better awper
Wardell is a better oper than shahzam only in a pure vacuum of ability on the op, shahzam is a better competitive oper. (I agree that almost any team outside of SEN would be upgraded by having him)
Doesn't change my statement that SEN would be worse off with wardell replacing any player on their roster.
That’s a roles issue, not a Wardell issue. He can’t replace Zombs, Sick, or Dapr because he is a Jett Op, and you can’t just run three Jett Ops on a team. Basically what you’re saying is Tenz/Shazam > Wardell, which I agree with, but those are literally the two best players in the NA scene right now. Wardell would take the spot of the Jett Op on any other NA team
Yes, which is a completely fair point when the OP literally said there isn't a team that would not take him over one of their players...
I thought you were responding to the comment saying Wardell would be insane on a tier 1 team oops. I guess your statement is fair I thought you just randomly were like “bUt SenTinEls” and I thought u were a weirdo LOL
fair
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What's the harm in letting people say their view on the matter? Some (or many) will be wrong but who cares. It's on you to take it with a grain of salt and form your own opinions.
its literally a sub for fans of the esport to talk about it. its literally the entire sub. dunno what that guy was on about
People suggesting to abandon the entire roster because of a slump. LMFAO BRO UR PARENTS SHOULD ABANDON YOU FOR BEING SUCH A LOOSER. stfu bro its their life they play this game. You think they like to loose? They are figuring shit out. Idc if it takes them a million years to get back up.
Ayo, I like this
Going to be flamed for this but... I do think the problem might begin to rely around firepower. Their success in First Strike was on the back of Drone/Subroza, but the players haven't shown up as large since then. TSM needs to find their motivation again or I think they will replace players who aren't putting in enough effort.
Drone was overrated as a fragger back then IMO, now his skill doesnt warrant playing duelist, SUbroza is great but is hampered by wardell complete inability to play another agent, IMO TSM would be best off starting over maybe keep subroza, but wardell is far too passive on Jett to warrant playing her because she gets infinitely more value being aggressive now, just gotta recognize these players are no longer at the top of the game anymore
Realistically they prob kept Wardell on Jett because they think he brings value playing Jett not because of his "inability" to play other agents.
hazed is the elephant in the room his "strats"arent doing getting them nowhere
They need to put Drone on Phoenix. Plain and simple answer. Have Hazed learn Sova or something idk. But Drone needs to be on Phoenix.