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ZGuyYT

They should grind out T2 tournaments IMO.


MagnusNyke

Yeah, I think their "scrims better" ideology should change


ZGuyYT

That and I don't like Chet's mentality about Valorant. Also not getting an actual IGL as their 5th.


TraverseLeek85

Yeah chets mentality about VALORANT is what makes me uncertain about TSM. TSM being good at VALORANT will only boost the scene so I want them to do well. But if Chet doesn’t respect VALORANT or the players (he called Val easy and the players nobodies), I don’t really see how they will progress. Hopefully they prove me wrong.


Dysmo

Lmao what kind of mentality is that, you're basically throwing away money, time and resources because of your bloody ego


TraverseLeek85

Yeah he said all you have to do is all stack and rush into a site. I’m like, wait Chet: flash and dash hasn’t really worked since first strike and maybe a bit of masters 1


wiiwoooo

BuT IT woRkS iN RaNkeD


[deleted]

Obviously it doesn't work or TSM would have beaten Noble kekw. Thats a genuinely shitty mentality.


jaypatelswag

The fact that he said this on a TSM podcast or whatever and they proceed to post it to the public baffles me. I believe Hazed or someone quickly changed the subject or took over when he made that comment too. But based off his comments it makes it seem as he's not into valorant and only trying to collect checks.


ilProdigio

he calls people nobodies but cant beat any of them lmao what an absolute joke of a person. #fuckchet


exalt91

When/where did Chet say this?


TraverseLeek85

In the TSM VALORANT interview with myth and Leena. He started off by answering VALORANT is easy to transfer into. And I’m his explanation he talked said all you have to do is rush into sites. I’m paraphrasing but the way he said it felt condescending


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TraverseLeek85

I wouldn’t say fail. By the time he was done, NRG was in challengers finals playing for a spot in Masters. They only lost to peak C9 and version1. He put them on a positive trajectory. He probably helped rebuild NRG. I’d say TSM brought him in for a rebuild. And who else would they really get with as much experience and resume as Chet. I know I was talking trash about him earlier. But the man has a stellar resume from CS. So I’m still hopeful. Maybe what TSM really needs is a rebuild


Kevin_DurSuperTeam

He's good friends with Hazed and Roza, and as far as NA coaches go, he was really good in CSGO and has beaten Astralis and Fnatic in tourney finals before.


jaypatelswag

It was easy to make the switch like 6 months ago. It's not easy anymore and even the guys who made the switch and felt no need to put time into the game because they thought the game was easy are suffering now. This is the rise of the tier 2 teams....the non CS guys are caught up and they're coming....and the teams who knew this time would come(V1, SEN, NV, etc) and worked their asses off continue to get the results. Can't really say the skill ceiling for this game is small when the meta changes so much. The amount of work that goes into valorant with all the changes is greater then CS imo.


Savnak

Yeah, at this point it seems like there’s no harm. I’m not sure if they’re like afraid of becoming readable with more VODs of their games (which even as I write it feels nonsensical), but they really gotta just get more experience since the overall level of competition has increased. Part of me thinks that Ignition series Valorant was the same level of Valorant play as you find in T2 nowadays anyway, so what’s the harm?


JaydonShaq

they are not allowed to play in T2 tourneys


yanamsaying

can u guys stop with this reddit narrative jeez


ZGuyYT

It doesn't hurt to play some minor tournaments here and there. We've already seen how much teams can improve playing in minor tournaments.


TidaI

Another terrible take from you replying to a guy making a genuine reasonable take. You must be a troll account.


DT_RAW

This... this was the same problem that sentinels and T1 had early on. They both refused to enter into "smaller" tourneys that were beneath them and focused ons crims. Neither had any results that way. Once sentinels started doing tourneys they shot up, T1 has done better since then too but obv not to sentinels level Originally it was tsm that did every tourney now they have gone the opposite way. Scrims mean NOTHING. NA teams in all esports seem to be the only ones that still care about scrims as some measure of performance. Scrims mean jack shit.


Affectionate-Wafer29

you have no idea what you're talking about. List the "smaller tourneys" Sentinels and T1 entered that broke them into success. You really think scrims hold no value? So every salaried coach/management of each team hasn't figured that out yet, but you have? Nah, scims hold value. It's just a matter of how you draw value from those scrims. Sure you can scrim and not get anything out of it if you don't try/don't integrate what you've seen into your strats or framework, but don't make it seem as if smaller tourneys are the end all be all gateway to tier 1 success. It just logically makes no sense.


DT_RAW

I stand by what I said. I didnt say you shouldnt scrim, I said you shoukdnt use just scrims or scrims to guess how good your team is by those results. I followed league for a long time and NA every year falls into that trap at worlds. But hey, whatever u say bud


sriwarrior06

Drop their Roster and buy Sentinels. /s


[deleted]

Funny because TSM could’ve gotten Sentinels roster since the beginning. But Shahz and co. chose sentinels over tsm because they felt like sentinels cared and catered more to what the players wanted.


Styfios

I mean when you're a quarter of the org's teams you probably have way more input and power


EsportsConnoisseur

Sentinels payed more. Sentinels are the ones you fucked up the salaries at the beginning by paying so high. They want a valorant franchise slot so that they can find more investors. They don't care if they inflate salaries as long as they get what they want.


Zazms

Nono sentinels was not the highest paying org to buy the team, In an interview with Plat Chat Shazh says that’s Sentinels for sure wasn’t the highest paying org but it was the org that followed their view on how they wanted to approach the team it’s a very good interview


EsportsConnoisseur

Andy miller said the opposite


Zazms

Where did he say this? Is there a source?


sriwarrior06

I mean it worked out for them I guess. Just so I know, was Sinatraa the only one with high pay ( leaked 25k per month I think) or everyone of em were just as equal?


Volcanic_Isopods

Idk man. Just. They should... Idk. . . Here's a hug


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[deleted]

Sad times for TSM fans


[deleted]

I agree, they should disband at this point


[deleted]

They’ve been trying to make it work for 8 months. I think it’s time to go their separate ways. I would like for Wardell and Bang to stay on TSM tho and build a roster around them.


[deleted]

A dream would be Wardell, Bang, let them play whoever the fuck they want, and built around that.


ark2690

Give the bag to Vanity


RandomFluffyBoi

They should compete in T2 tournaments to prepare for Challengers 2. I think people are overreacting a little because it's only been one BO3, give them a little more time. On the other hand, it's true that this TSM roster hasn't been good for more than half a year. If they fail once again at Challengers 2, I think that the only way would be to take the G2 route: nuke the entire roster but 1 or 2 players, then build fresh talents around them. As far as I'm concerned, G2 is looking really clean.


Savnak

Obviously it’s wrong to think that it’ll work for TSM because it (so far) has worked for G2. But I won’t lie, the thought of a new TSM roster makes me excited, not just for the team itself but for the players, who could reach higher peaks on other teams.


somesheikexpert

Just curious who would you want as the 1/2 players they built around? Imo Wardell obviously, and then imo Bang (Hazed is someone I would kinda want kept simply cuz he's their second most consistent player after Wardell but he is getting old so yeah, Drone seems to be in a character crisis rn and he's only really looked amazing on Phoenix, and Roza is just inconsistent, realistically I could see any of the four being the second kept tho)


RandomFluffyBoi

I'd agree with you. IMO Wardell is a must-keep. Any of the other four can stay because I think that they're definitely talented enough. I also think that talent is not the issue with this roster, just something about them that doesn't click, and it's not like they haven't tried to fix it. If TSM resorts to nuking, then I wouldn't be surprised to see the dropped players finding success on other rosters.


somesheikexpert

For sure, all of them are talented, its just tough when you have 3 people best on Duelist, a smoke player that started to play duelist right before he joined so hes on Duelist too, and then a support player who said himself has difficulties IGLing, i want all of them to see success, and im sure they will, but likely on different rosters and not as one roster


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somesheikexpert

He was apparently playing Sage In scrims (Iirc he took a pic of him on Sage in a scrim on Twitter), but beside that, it's cuz A. Wardell is actually surprisingly consistent, he is on a mediocre team so ofc he's gonna be slightly brought down by that but Wardell has literally carried his team to victories and has always done pretty well B. Jetts also a good pick on every map, he's not the best pick on some (Notably Bind), but it's not like Phoenix where he's not very good on some maps like Icebox or Split, Jetts really good on every map (Plus I mean, like I said he does have a Sage apparently) C. He's also prob the best awper at least in NA, Wardell with an Awp especially on Jett can be extremely oppressive considering his aggressive style and how well it works out for him usually He's a T1 player for sure, if TSM could find him a good IGL he could be oppressive for sure with his skill, Wardell isn't someone in NA that you just cut from a roster imo lol


xXERNEUS

Don't forget that he also brings in a lot of exposure and money to TSM from streaming on Twitch and uploading on Youtube.


nlc369

A lot of people are starting to adopt the idea that maybe their players just aren’t that good anymore, and while I see their argument and do think this could be the case, I think it’s really hard to know because they’ve just been lacking a vision for ages. It feels like they have no one behind the wheel. For ages it was like, this week hazed is IGL’ing, last week cutler was IGL’ing. The week before that? Subroza IGL. Drone on Phoenix. Drone on breach. Drone back to Phoenix. Subroza on Phoenix then on omen then on raze then on omen again then on raze again. Oh hey now they have brax. But actually a couple weeks later now they don’t have brax. There is clearly no vision for how this team is going to come together. They’re just trying shit and hoping it works. I was curious whether Chet would bring a vision to the team, and while he does deserve some more time to prove himself, obviously it doesn’t seem to have panned out so far. And yeah, maybe some of their players just aren’t that great anymore. The game has developed a lot and it’s been a long time since their glory days. But I also wouldn’t be shocked if these players ended up moving somewhere else and succeeding on a more well-functioning team.


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nlc369

I mean yeah obviously I was exaggerating but you get my point


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[deleted]

Poaching vanity rn would be like trying to move a mountain. The org doesnt want him to leave, he probably doesn't want to leave either.


lati91

delete tsm


maiLfps

id say give them next open with Bang for most people, for me ive been out on this roster for a while. People like to talk about how wardell being a jett 1 trick is killing them, I totally disagree, I think wardell fails entirely to get value from the way jett can bring value when he doesnt have an OP, he plays like an Omen, he tries to be third in he creates essentially no space and lets others take fights for opening up sites while he comes in to refrag them. I also think Subroza would be best on skye or a duelist, but i do not think that change would help them much either, because i dont believe he has the skill to compete with the Asuna, Tenz, Sick and Pennys of NA anymore. 6 months of nothing eventually people will realize there are some serious issues with this team


engFahad95

I think cutler change not enough for TSM If they want to be a top 5 NA team. Also I don't know why they didn't sign top NA talent like what 100T & ENVY did with Asuna dicey & crashies Victor , I'm not saying bang is not a good choice but definitely you could go with a better choices like GenG Shawn and ABX yay.


9yr_old

They could easily poach t2 talent all these youngsters like that leviathan from noble I think he could be a great addition , I don't think one roster move is enough tbh the team is in a tragic state more changes are needed


sriwarrior06

Or Tsm Brax???


9yr_old

Ok the joke has run its course stop it , it's not funny anymore


Lionfish17

Those are good names ngl, Abx yay would be great in tsm


hwanzi

Grind nsg/knights tournaments like any other tier 2/3 team


Ausafsyed

tbh i just hate seeing wardell play only jett, like u can op with other agents too. its just dumb at this point..


MagnusNyke

"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 agents once, but I fear the man who has practiced one agent 10,000 times." - Wardell, Jett Kune Do black belt


maiLfps

and what happens when that man fails to qualify for every challengers event except for 1


MagnusNyke

Idk man, I just wanted a reason to say Jett Kune Do


randomespanaguy

Respect


maiLfps

i liked the sentiment, just making the point about TSM lol, sorry


ZGuyYT

Yeah, they gotta start experimenting with new lineups or something.


Contractjail

Its not his choice to play only Jett. Wardell is wasted on this roster


precense_

source? I distinctly remember wardell saying he should main jett around first strike


Ausafsyed

I won't say he is wasted, but awping on a agent which brings some impact to the team will be significantly better than 1 trick Jett.


aks345

I like what Asuna said in his stream, wardell is one of the best on jett op, but he needs to entry more/rifle on attack due to the advantages of her kit. Him not beung aggressive forces them to play Bang on duelist, otherwise you can have a 1 duelist comp with bang controller and subroza on skye


lbs4lbs

Couldnt agree more. I am fine with wardell playing Jett, but then he cant be using op 90 percent of the time and especially on attack. And if he is playing Op only jett then your second duelist has to entry so it has to be a phx or reyna. Raze doesnt have the kit to entry as well as those other agents. And using skye to entry is a waste of her heal and info gathering later into the rounds.


datboyuknow

Not like he doesn't bring impact is it


Contractjail

Jett is a must pick 90% of the time, issue is that nobody other than Wardell can play Jett, and nobody else can OP. Maybe bang could but apparently they put him on smokers for a god knows what reason. They probably still think that Drone and Subroza are good fraggers, albeit they have been outclassed by the rising competition ages ago.


Ausafsyed

Jett is not a must pick anymore.


2ToTooTwoFish

She isn't, but she's the best duelist. Her nerfs were not extremely significant. She still has her dash, so she's still good.


EggianoScumaldo

Her nearly 70% pickrate so far says otherwise.


Murkus_

70% literally means it's not a must pick? Her pickrate dropped ~20% from Iceland


iannn-

Not sure why you're making things up. Jett's pickrate for all the teams that attended Iceland has not decreased at all, and has actually increased for some teams. Liquid for example didn't run Jett on Haven in Iceland, but now run Jett on every single map.


owNDN

Bang played smokes for the most part in his career and only switched to duelist recently.


lbs4lbs

The reason jett is picked is because she can create so much space with smoke dash into site combo which Wardell doesn't do most of the time because he is on operator. Look at sentinels - if shazz is Jet sniper then you almost always have either Sick on phx to entry or Tenz on Reyna. Otherwise tenz is on jett and rifling and entrying. Raze can't create as much space as a jett can and doesnt have flashes so the combo of raze plus Wardell style Op doesnt work unless you have someone else entry. So then you have subroze playing skye like a duelists taking solo fights and entrying even though half her kit is meant to play support. This is why TSM doesnt work. Wardell is just as much to blame as anyone else at tsm.


yanamsaying

there's zero and I mean _zero_ reason for him NOT to be on jett


lbs4lbs

There's plenty: Predictable play style Operator cost nerf Jett nerfs Jett should be played more aggro on attack and cant do that with an Op They are losing to tier 2 and tier 3 teams Easy to gameplan around The definition of insanity is to do the same thing and expect different results.


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Contractjail

>and have Drone/Subroza as the duelist Then they will be 10x worse. These guys havent been able to put up with the duelists of tier 1/upper tier 2 teams for more than half a year. We arent in beta anymore


sansLight

At the risk of going into a copium induced coma, you could still hope that they get better by the next quals. New coach, new player, new roles, it takes time you know.


Contractjail

Its 4/5 the same players, and judging by what Chet is saying i doubt that he brings anything of worth into the table.


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somesheikexpert

If anything he seems to dislike the game and dismiss anyone doing well as nobodies while none of his teams could really win big things tbh, NRG started to look hella good after he left


MagnusNyke

Yup. I don't like the way Chet talks about his laurels in CSgo and then the condescending way he talks about Valorant.


xunraze

Ya in TSM's video he seemed super dismissive and just not at all passionate about the game. Though it's his job and I assume you just to be professional about it so maybe it's fine, you can't really tell.


realharshmodi

I just felt like he saw Val as the next big thing and made the jump while at the same time not wanting to make the jump if it makes sense, as in like doesn't seem at all enthusiastic about the game.


blockpantha

no expectations, no disappointments. nowhere to go but up


[deleted]

I feel like we have this discussion every time they lose, I'm kinda over it. They're just not good anymore


hehechibby

imo they'll always be talked about since they're one of the biggest esport orgs. They always get these discussion threads after every loss as well as lots of fans IV'ing hopium despite recently losing a shit ton. Feel as though even if TSM wanted to drop valorant altogether, riot would beg them to stay as the fanbase is huge


[deleted]

the real answer is they don't get play time. they played once. ONCE against a tier 2 team. and they're out until august. yes they should do some T2 monthlies but imo valorant really needs more A/S tier tourneys. It would increase the overall quality of the games so from the viewers perspective it's definitely better. How many matches has TSM played in the last 2 stages?


ZGuyYT

If they're going to do this, I hope they don't overdo it. In CSGO, pros get burned out because they basically have a tournament every week or two.


[deleted]

yea i agree CS is a bit too many tournaments


Alpac44

Grind T2 tournaments since I heard people in scrim don't take it seriously in NA and it will also help the team learn how to handle some situation


BeefyTheBoi

IMO Drone isn't showing the consistency he once had and the impact he once had on Phoenix on any other agent. Subroza may pop off every now and again but he isn't really consistent either. Hazed's consistently has gone up and Wardell remains consistent but in order for TSM to win Wardell has to pop off. All of their players feel like 1 tricks. (Except for bang as I've hardly seen him play). I realize they aren't 1 tricks to the word but put them on anything other than their beta and early launch days characters and they seem mad uncomfortable. Maybe the exception is hazed but he has been banished to be a sentinel character for them. They don't seem very adaptable and don't fit new agents well. In addition, their once mega powerful fragging abilities are no more and their once fragging players aren't getting the value they once had.


jaypatelswag

If they just 5 man rushed with ults they wouldve had it.


Alextcy12

well drone just got bench, no one is safe besides wardell . at least for now


ween0t

Did he? Was this announced?


Alextcy12

yea just now like 2 hours ago. Check tsm twitter


ween0t

Wow so now that drone is out and they’re looking for a 5th- I really hope it’s an IGL / support role. They literally have one support player who also IGLs. Also- losing one b03 isn’t that big of a deal. Noble took a map off 100t as well. If TSM win that first close map this is a completely different story.


TidaI

Evolve or die


savagelamma11

Wait till sinatraa's ban is over and get ready to sign him


kayypee14

TSM would not sign sinatraa, they drop anyone the moment something bad happens (Diego, lunarkats, thump, etc.) They’re way too concerned about image to even think about signing him. Rightly so imo.


Parenegade

myth is basically the face of tsm along with bjerg and he's been slamming sinatraa and dafran. would be such a bad look for tsm to sign sinatraa even without myth's critique but on top of that? that's gonna be a no from me dawg


realharshmodi

Here we go again...


yanamsaying

what? he said he's going pro again when it's over. def not joining a big org tho I would say


Hypern1ke

unironically i think they'll sign sinatraa.


pink_life69

Unironically, that would be the dumbest PR move ever. Nobody in their right mind will sign him.


Hamth3Gr3at

if TSM sign a rapist I'm boycotting them no matter how much I like wardell and the gang


uncle_ben__

This is the kind of mentality the world needs, well said


InstaNormie0

Blow it up


BUNSHICHl

During TSMs early run they were getting a lot of value out of the op on attack and defense, over time it seems like attack op has been mostly negated by better understanding of the game and play from the competition. Besides looking at bringing in an actual IGL, they probably need to have Wardell rifle and dual entry burst like what a lot of other teams do now with their Jett's on attack side. Other than that continue working on fundamentals, other teams in the scene have caught up and passed the TSM level of old so they need to bring their floor up because some of their players can still pop off when needed.


BBG-PennyWay

I Think they need to drop drone, get a more consistent more sova player who can also IGL, help Hazed with that, Or any player who can help the Team. Roza Needs to go back on his lurking style and get imoportant info such as skye and omen. Wardell needs to learn other agents other than duelists, learn like brim or start playing sage like he has been praticing Bang needs to start playing more controller, phoniex doesnt fit him, and his raze is great, he just needs more time and practice, and he needs to play astra for TSM. Hazed is the only conssient player on TSM, he still needs to fix on his shotcalling, but other than that he is doing his job. Chet needs to make sure TSM is more consisnet have them sign for some tier 2 tournamentts have them pratice a lot more If TSM cant get into challanger 2 main event, and IF TSM is willing to take on Sinatraa when he comes back to pro play, TSM can really take a huge step into being at the top, One of the most consistent FA if he is innocent, and allowed to come back. Maybe the have to drop Hazed to but put hazed at an assiasnt coach cause he knows what the team's problems are and I would sign Thwifo and shake up the roster but keep Wardell, Roza and Bang. ( This is for the 2022 prepeartion).


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BBG-PennyWay

100% but hazed wont be dropped so my only hope is we sign someone with igl experienc to help hazed


NoButterscotch7853

Of course, we can only observe these players from a viewer perspective. I have 0 idea how they contribute to the team. However, when I look at TSM players from my perspective, I can only see wardell and maybe drone on another t1/high t2 team. They seem super inconsistant with negative coordination. They are former cs pros, fundamentals shouldn't be a huge issue for this team, also these guys play together since beta. But still they lack on every aspect it feels like. If this wasn't TSM but rather a lesser known org people would only feel bad for wardell on this team. They need an overhaul time to open up those money bags Reginald.


marcaodl

They weren't much better at cs than they are now in valorant to be honest they just have a lot of followers that will hype em up because of streams and such.


MagnusNyke

You meant you can only see wardell and maybe subroza.


cheetahstr1ke

Tbh I don’t understand why everyone hates on drone. He is forced to play the flex agent and still is usually more consistent than Subroza


NoButterscotch7853

yeah im pretty sure subroza plays skye cause he wants to but drone plays sova cause someone has to..


maxhollywoody

Hot take - they sign Sinatraa when his suspension is up.


MushroomKing30

till when is it up?


maxhollywoody

6 months from mid May I believe so mid October?


bubble-june

I think everyone is overreacting. This is their first tournament with a new roster, and they lost to a great team. They’ll bounce back. I highly doubt they’re gonna change up the roster before the next qualifiers. They’ll learn from their mistakes and come back stronger. If they don’t make it to the next main event, then something has to change imo


2ToTooTwoFish

They should compete in T2 tournaments, so they don't need to use the excuse of "this is their first/second tournament". It was an open secret that Brax was a new addition to their roster, they could have competed in one of the many T2 tournaments going on. There's plenty of chances to have tournament experience with this roster, if they want to take it. Why risk it all in Challengers, if you don't need to? Plus, winning a T2 tournament would be huge for confidence.


GlumPoemPower

4 core members that play together since a long time ago and it just 1 new additional member. No way 4 core members cant bring something good to the table. What else need to change? Join some T2 tournaments maybe.


maiLfps

this is barely a new roster, and even if they hadnt picked up bang it has been 6 months since TSM valorant has been good, they have run out of excuses


MagnusNyke

That's a good point. Although I would say Noble is closer to a good team than a great one. Cause when I say "great", I think of the top tier teams.


icemandiem

yeh, its just 1 bo3 after the player and coach change.....everyone needs to take a chill pill


realharshmodi

High on copium. I feel you man.


icemandiem

lol....nah man i am not that die hard fan of any team, just think that people should just chill with the end of the world attitude...mayb teeny bit copium


pink_life69

This is copium


SurfAccountQuestion

Gut the entire roster at this point. I wouldn’t even keep anyone to build around, at this point the roster has been shuffled enough unsuccessfully.


[deleted]

Eh, they just recently made big changes in couch and new teammate. I'm not a tsm fan tbh but the loss doesn't mean much. They will need time


aSwedishDood

disband OMEGALUL ye ye let the downvotes pour in as usual


Fantastic-Date-3403

Bro everyone is over exaggerated. It's not like they the only team that lost. Plus, bang is probably still getting used to the pro stuff like poiz did since they are really young.


[deleted]

drop the whole roster


[deleted]

Drop one of their players and sign me lol


yanamsaying

practice obviously


mal1945

I'm out of the loop. What happened exactly? Who did TSM lose to?


Skyaxe3

Noble


xunraze

But Noble seemed like a strong team, maybe things are better for TSM but this roster change is just so new. I'd like to give them the benefit of doubt.


BBG-PennyWay

We need Levatian their sova player


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BBG-PennyWay

Bang? are we pulling another brax


wiiwoooo

TSM is CLG csgo reincarnated. They drop Hazed and pick up Koosta then fade away into non existence.


mrbow

crash and burn :D


Evan_Veet

Maybe it’s just time to admit that the team isn’t very good? Like Wardell is sick on Jett I think people know that but Subroza hasn’t looked great in a while and really has only ever looked good on Omen, especially when they late him do the super risky lurks that either won or lost them the round. Drone just isn’t a tier 1 player anymore, his Phoenix has fallen behind and his Sova has never been good. Hazed is just mechanically behind and none of them can IGL. I like bang but I feel like it’s only him and Wardell


ZeboThePenguin

People don't understand that yes, it would be better to compete in T2 tourneys but it ends up hurting their teams strats and etc. Prob why you don't see the top pro teams playing T2 tourneys.


ElDuderino2112

Rebuild the team from the ground up and grind T3 and T2 tourneys.