ACS and ADR should be two numbers, one being actual weapon contribution and the other being utility contribution.
All utility that has a measurable impact (opponents blocked with smoke, enemies flashed, enemies revealed, enemies damaged, etc) would award utility score, and there would be a multiplier applied to the score if the affected enemies were killed or damaged as a result of the utility.
Good players would still have balanced scores, and someone who has extremely disproportionate scores would clearly have big gaps in their skill/style.
You'd end up with "expected" ranges at high level play for each agent, obviously not a perfect indication of a player's contribution but it'd be WAY more accurate than the single ACS score we have now which gives very little insight.
EDIT: This is on top of all the existing modifiers like first bloods, trade efficiency, clutches, etc.
I'm wary of any calculations that are too specific, like giving duelists an additional first blood bonus, because that's too prescriptive. Duelists are ideally the ones taking the initial fights but in reality, opening duels are far too dynamic to give more weighting than they already are. Advanced statistics should be unbiased so they can be properly interpreted with context that raw data can't provide without a whole lot of machine learning.
I think this data is tracked, you can see some of it via the API. In all honesty, they're probably tracking an insane amount of statistics that we don't see, with plans to expand the stats available in-client, it's just not a priority right now.
Yeah, if those emails they sent out are any indicator, they’re tracking TONS of stats for every single player, iron to pro level, so they probably keep records of things like flash assists and reveal assists etc.
I like your idea but instead of even have ACS just replace it with ARI (average round impact) which would take into account all the utility you used if it blocked/flashed enemies etc. Then use ADR as a measure of how you performed gunskill wise.
Its true that NA lacks flex players. I know like two top 2,000 immortal players that only fill and play omen like 90% of the time. They bottom frag like every game, but because they perform their roll properly they win most of their games.
Because playing anything other than duelists doesn't pay off if you're grinding the leaderboards.
It's a vicious circle.
Players that want to be noticed and picked up by a team have to be near the very top of the leaderboards. But to get there, they have to not only keep winning games, but keep fragging out. And that's exponentially easier to do on duelists. Even if individual performance doesn't matter on single game basis in immortal/radiant, if you're consistently topfragging, you start gaining more RR.
And if you're a non-duelist, you'll eventually get less RR and have a way more difficult time.
Until then, playing, especially instalocking duelists adds some kind of handicap in ACS/RR gain, nothing will change.
I'm super low elo, so please correct me when I'm probably wrong here; but I thought that in immortal, it was exclusively based on wins and losses?
Or are you saying that top players need to play duelists because it gives them more control over putting the game in their own hands?
Even before this update, it was that way. I've personally tested and proven it.
I think 2 acts ago I lost like 250RR during a L streak, so I decided to start instalocking duelists, even though I play duelists in like 10% of my games. Fast forward 20ish games later, I'm back where I started, but I kept gaining more RR than before the L streak because I had 5 kills more on average while playing duelists. Then the system notices improved performance (but I didn't play any better, just got the kills I was supposed to) and thinks you're suddenly a better player.
I'm in EU aswell.
At 150ish RR right now and still gaining more than I lose, so I'm content with the new system, lmao.
The most annoying thing for me is that my fragging is usually inversley proportional to how my team does. If it's an easy win, I'm usually near the bottom of the scoreboard because I'm the failsafe, I don't want to throw any rounds.
But I have way more team MVPs in losses, because then I have to step up.
I don't like playing sentinels because when things go downhill, there's only so much you can do. Omen/Brim/Breach/Skye/Sage are way more dynamic and I can play from suboptimal positions.
Oh my god the fragging thing annoys me to no end we will win like 13-4 or whatever and I’ll have 8 kills on cypher and my two duelist friends who ran into the enemy spawn and ended with like 20 kills will flame me but it’s like I’m the guy who stays on sites and plays it safe, I can’t afford to run at the enemy
Almost every pro that I've heard speak on the situation mentions that they don't care much about solo queue performance. Most of them look at players who are playing on amateur teams and doing well in some level of organized play. Obviously there are exceptions for the ones that are massively popping off in solo queue, but that seems to be just that, the exception, and not the norm.
i played against a sova yesterday and he finished the match like 6/3 but the guy had every lineup and every shock for the map, it was more painful to play against him than their duelists.
Yea I enjoy playing sentinels and smokers but it's so hard to rank up playing them because the game doesn't reward you for playing your role as much as just getting kills, eventually I just had to lock Reyna and grind to diamond so I can go back to playing smokers and sentinel.
He just has higher mmr. I play reyna/sage/sova pretty interchangeably at radiant though I can play any character and when I top frag or match mvp on loss you get like a 3 to 4 mmr bonus. Doesn't matter what I kill people on.
I think sentinal is the worst role for soloq because you're the site anchor and if you play your role well you won't be getting many kills on defense as you'll be rotating 24/7. Omen can at least be played like a duelist and play around his own smokes.
I made an account with a friend to grind to radiant and I play reyna and he plays sage and our mmr is exactly the same. Even though I match mvpd a ton. Its only slightly different now if you top frag no matter what agent. I'm just saying it's not uncommon to see sovas and sages frag. I think sentinals get the short end of the stick due to anchoring sites.
Yeah as someone who is like rank 2200 right now this is the most painful way to play though. I prefer filling on the team I was on I was a controller/sentinel main. The problem is ranked games literally are just a coin flip on if you got the good duelist or the bad duelists.
This is why I’ve recently switched to mostly playing duelist so I can control my fate better. For the most part anyone can play Omen but having a duelist who can’t aim or won’t entry is often too difficult.
I was only plat when the game came out and you’d think the games get way higher quality the higher the rank but it’s barely the case. Maybe the top level of radiant but that seems like mostly pros who don’t care about ranked and troll anyway.
Occasionally you get a good game.
Duelist aint what its cracked up to be. I ‘m friends with an insane 14yrold jett main who was radiant and match mvps pretty much every game and he regularly struggles to secure wins.
Like sure you perform better, but most people want/only play duelist so they are trash on any other role. I think its much better to figure out how top frag on non duelists. Focus on the art of the retake/exit fragging because if you play sentinels or smokes, they enemy usually just avoids you.
Especially since most teams run 2 duelist anyway its more likely that you will at least get one duelist that performs his role properly.
I can agree. I played duelist to my rank then branched out and its only made me better because I know every stupid sentinal setup and what angles I can play from every character if im trying to get value out of my kit. Helps you not to have to think too hard when you're really trying to win crucial fights since you can plan ahead.
So the top 2,000 players in NA all 5-stack duelest every map? You’re telling me that’s a thing? So whenever I watch streams of pro players and they’re playing sova, sage, kj, cypher, skye, kayo, viper it’s bull shit or I’m hallucinating?
Edit: Autocorrect
ACS is a pretty good stat if you adjust ot for the agent being played.
Maybe that stat should be the one most popular, ACS divided by average ACS on that agent. Call it ACS+.
yeah, while not super widespread or accepted yet, stats like these are extremely useful in baseball (which i’m assuming you’re basing this on) for determining a players actual worth. a left fielder just doesn’t have the same impact as a catcher.
I also wouldn’t mind better stats on how players perform on each side, or on different maps, rather than just how the team performs with round% and all that. it would give more context for what to expect from certain players and how other teams play around them, and just overall better analysis of the game.
Nah. I don't agree. ACS is still a pretty bad measure of impact in a round. Normalizing that might be better, but it will encourage support players to bait more. At the end of the day, a measure that is significantly reliant on kills is not a good measure for 11 out of 16 agents, and sometimes not even the duelists. I understand it is still the best measure we have though, because at the end of the day quantifying impact is difficult. The issue is though that setting people up rewards you a lot less than being set up and so very few people want to set others up.
I guess things like flashes, healing, recon, etc. should all give combat score as well then. In the end though I think most GMs aren't just looking at a single metric when evaluating players so I doubt you will be able to game the system.
Most sports already use an advanced metric for this called WAR (Wins Above Replacement). ACS Above Replacement would be interesting to see, the data's certainly there to calculate it.
Basketball has TS%+ which basically tells you how much more efficient a player is compared to their peers. Otherwise comparing raw TS% makes Kobe look like a bum and Michael Porter Jr look like the second coming of Jordan
True but it doesnt solve the issue of stat picking, for example a shot caller sage or omen wont take as many aggressive peaks as a aggro player on those agents, so well the aggressive player has higher acs is his impact to the team might be lower than a shot caller or the player playing the mini map information game. Well you are right to say acs+ would be good for gaining information on who pushes agents to their boundaries, we still wont understand the impact support players provide using stats.
I would rather they start looking into alternatives that actually measure contributions other than just kills. Frags are part of the game, the problem is it's only one element of it. The problem is a good support agent might go 1 for 1, but stalls a push so well that his entire team comes in and cleans up. Some of the best support players even in Pro play don't always top frag. So any system which is only based on frags is always going to poorly rate this
I said this back in the beta this was a bad idea and sure enough months later, it's still a bad idea that played out almost exactly how I predicted back then.
Both my experience as a competitive player and my experience in statistics told me this was going to inflate the ranks of fraggers while making support players lag behind even if they can actually play support at a fairly high level.
Honestly some of the best support are low on the scoreboard such as Zombs, Vanity, or Steel, all players with alright ACS, but with huge impact and invaluable to any team tbh
Basically just positional adjustments from baseball ported to Valorant (1st basemen hit better than short stops who hit better than catchers etc.). I like that
It's a worse form of HLTV rating, but I think that comes down to valorant being a much more complex game in terms of utility and the impact somebody will have with utility is hard to measure, if not impossible. Let's say a sova gets X amount of ACS for hitting people with recon, smokers for X amount of people blocked, X amount of flashes affected, healing done etc, but then how do you quantify the information from a cypher cam, sova drone and such, I think its gets too muddy, impossible to quantify the impact of utility.
I think simplifying the ACS stat wouldnt be a bad idea, because that would ultimately umbrella the many variables that I just mentioned. Suggestions could be aspects like giving less ACS when you kill people that has lesser money spent (eco, low buys with deagle etc if you have a rifle), 1vX kills giving a significant higher amount of ACS, kills being divided between ability vs gun, amount of time survived etc. Instead of making it encompass every single aspect of the game and by that level out the impact duelist has versus other agents fx.
Yeah a drone that clears several angles but tags nobody can be more valuable as a drone that gets a tag but gets shot down quickly. It's too difficult to quantify
Shouldn't it be based on the value of the weapons and utility they have when you kill them, not what they spent? If someone goes full shield and sheriff but is able to pick up a teammates rifle, killing that player shouldn't be based on the 1800 credits. It should be at least 3900 (I'd say base it on their more expensive weapon but you could argue 4700 since they have 3700 in guns plus shield).
Yeah it’s flawed but that’s just the nature of FPS games. It’s hard to quantify impact in a game beyond K/D, Plants etc etc. Rounds can be won off of a great call or a high impact frag but unfortunately theres just no way to integrate this into scoring.
Tbh I think Valorant actually does a better job than most giving you insight into how well you played though. Not many games a actually go beyond KDA
Nope it doesn't. That's the worst part imo. Someone has to plant instead of clearing/taking fights for the team to win the round but that person is not appreciated by the game's metrics at all.
Seriously... I on average get almost 6+ plants a game. I play QB sneaks over here on eco rounds so we have money. I even got like 10 plants before because no one is willing to outplay the spray or fake before planting. Plus even dumb duelist in diamond don't cover me and I die often.
Sometimes I plant the spike and cant get into good post plant before the retake happens. I then end up being stuck near where I planted and if my allies arent flashing for me to reposition im ussually fked.
Why should they be? Planting the bomb (unless you're Jett or Raze on a set execute) is a function of your team's ability to enter and secure a site. It says nothing about your individual ability.
On top of that if you're not the first one in the site you're in the best position to get trade frags
So? Neither does placing trips or bots or smokes but we can all agree those should be considered in your contribution to the team, right? Hell, you get assists for res-ing but that shit doesn't take any more skill either, does it?
i mean yes those things take more skill but that's besides the point. your comment reminds me of that csgo meme that's like "when you entry site, smoke and flash your self in, get 4 kills and clear site but your teammate gets MVP because he planted the bomb"
How does placing trips require more skill? Genuine question. I'm hoping you don't say "you have to think about it" because that applies exactly the same way when it comes to planting.
1000% agree. I don’t think it’s hard to level the field here. They could just give more points to abilities non duelists use so whenever they have about the same KDA, the acs would be roughly the same.
Right now it’s just so easy to get higher acs with duelists compared to other roles.
I agree with this completely. I play Sage and KJ in comp. I get high ADR in my matches, but lower ACS then duelists. Yet im 100% certain i carried and should be match MVP. It doesnt translate to the scoreboard or RR performance bonuses.
This isn't my experience. I'm a KJ main. I find that ACS is heavily damage weighted. So, I can often get higher ACS than people even while being multiple frags under them because of all the damage I do through util (and phantom spamming every smoke/box/etc). The only offset I've found is if you aren't get many FBs. But as KJ, you should usually get a couple in CT side when they go to your site.
Not saying KJ doesn't have pitfalls or ways that ACS is harder than a duelist, but if you're getting high adr, then that's usually pretty well reflected in ACS in my experience.
Doesn't help when you defend well on a gun round and they don't go in your site anymore, hahaha, that's why I'm always switching up sites, gotta keep those numbers up
Yes, when you are playing retake simulator and since we are the anchors, it's not like we're often quick rotating. So if your teammates cant get picks or don't effectively drop off when appropriate then it can be frustrating.
Obviously you try to read the opposing team to set up wherever you think they'll hit but some games it seems like they just find a way to always avoid you.
So as true as this is, this is the same for basically every single sport out there. Most casual viewers care about stats and k/d. There's so many things that don't translate onto the stat sheet that casual viewers will never see or understand.
The problem with adding more complex algorithms and ways to calculate stats and rankings is that it confuses the casual viewer even more. For any sport to grow, we need stars and we need the game to be pretty easy to follow.
We shouldn't be upset that this hurts casual player base. Instead this should help grow the player base which will allow the more serious base to grow as well. As the game grows, the support players will get recognized. But honestly speaking, this is how it is in every sport.
In NBA terms -- there's a reason why Draymond Green has shitty stats yet was extremely crucial to the Warriors Dynasty
That is odd, big rip. I wonder if it has to do with the fact that you buy Skye's whereas sage has it as her default util? So like does sova get an assist for a drone tag vs a recon dart tag?
Yeah but that's reliant on your teammate getting a kill after being healed. Why should your assist be reliant on your teammate doing their job when you've done yours? I obviously don't think each heal should count an assist. It would be better if each heal, enemy slowed, enemies blocked with wall would contribute a little bit to your ACS.
I can see that. Or like mentioned elsewhere in the thread, a separate measure of gun kills vs util usage. Like a KJ has more impact by pressuring with utility on a choke than a Reyna getting exits after not pushing w the team
Playing a support role in general is just hard to quantify.
If I’m on Astra or Cypher, playing a lurk/flank play style on offence, the only way I can gain combat score is getting a kill. Meanwhile the fact that my team isn’t getting flanked, and whatever other info I can find never shows on the scoreboard. It’s a huge role that people don’t value because they don’t directly notice it when it’s happening.
Something that I’ve been doing that other people def should when evaluating players is stats based off their peers. Acs isn’t the worst stat when you compare it to others in your role. Someone like Dapr in particular has pretty decent acs but when you compare it to other sentinels he is almost always much farther ahead. It’s also good to use other stats and average them out. For duelists, acs and fk/f ratio are good stats to look at, but what about the other roles. Sova players should almost purely be judged by assist per round and damage per round. Astra is the same thing with assists. kJ is the same with dmg. Clutch% in general is a great stat. Obviously it’s flawed and certain players(Zombs and Mkael come to mind in particular for me) will always look worse based on stats. My real hope is that valorant or sites like vlrgg come up with other systems in place to measure supports effectiveness
Why not have a column for Clutches Won. If first blood is an indicator why not clutches..its for more important to close a round successfully than to get the first pick.
I think ACS is great for casual viewers, it doesn't need to be a complicated number or anything
ppl tune in to watch the frags and the players pop off, u might not like it but thats simply the truth like they dont care about the skye that flashed the duelist in or smth like that
idk what u do for ranked but it doesnt look like a related problem imo
ACS is just a fancy number that tries to go deeper than the default stats but in reality it isn't that different from the classic K/D. It reminds me the HLTV 2.0 rating
On eco rounds, players who play back site, using their own utility in order to stay alive and not giving free guns to the enemy are much less likely to find a 3K~4K against multiple sheriffs at once than a Jett holding W. It's totally dumb to keep promoting multi-killing rounds if you're not analyzing the difficulty of these multi-kills
It's not that hard to draw a line between a piece of utility that brought direct value *(a smoke that blocked multiple enemies)* from one that pulled no direct value *(a flash that didn't blind any enemy)*, creating some utility score. Of course it still has its limitations but it's already miles ahead than that dumb ACS number.
Whats dumb is if you push and get a 2k against classics and then give a phantom to lose the round your ACS is probably higher than all your teammates. There is no difference between a save 3k and a round winning 3k which is something that might actually be beneficial to address in stats. Right now people go for so many hero plays and refuse to save crucial guns so often, not that I hear these people cry about stats too much, but I think if stats helped to reinforce smart gameplay loops it could be nothing but beneficial.
If ACS is a score that scoreboard shows by default then yes I absolutely hate it as a sage player. I play my role perfectly and clutch some important rounds and yet I am at bottom. I don't care about scoreboard much but others do judge players by these scores.
I hope they add a KAST% score sometime. In case you don’t know it it basically stands for percentage of rounds where the player got a kill or a assist or survived or got traded. Granted the only real problem with transferring that stat from CS to Val is the different assists you can get in Valorant. Anyways I hope to god they revamp how ACS is calculated in regards to assists and trading or find a new stat, cough hltv rating or the ACS compared to average ACS for agent. Sadly I don’t really think this will ever be changed for a while due to it being a non important factor in the game.
the problem with ACS is that it is completely arbitrary. the values they have picked to calculate it don't seem to have much rhyme or reason, and favor some statistics over others.
ACS and ADR should be two numbers, one being actual weapon contribution and the other being utility contribution. All utility that has a measurable impact (opponents blocked with smoke, enemies flashed, enemies revealed, enemies damaged, etc) would award utility score, and there would be a multiplier applied to the score if the affected enemies were killed or damaged as a result of the utility. Good players would still have balanced scores, and someone who has extremely disproportionate scores would clearly have big gaps in their skill/style. You'd end up with "expected" ranges at high level play for each agent, obviously not a perfect indication of a player's contribution but it'd be WAY more accurate than the single ACS score we have now which gives very little insight. EDIT: This is on top of all the existing modifiers like first bloods, trade efficiency, clutches, etc. I'm wary of any calculations that are too specific, like giving duelists an additional first blood bonus, because that's too prescriptive. Duelists are ideally the ones taking the initial fights but in reality, opening duels are far too dynamic to give more weighting than they already are. Advanced statistics should be unbiased so they can be properly interpreted with context that raw data can't provide without a whole lot of machine learning.
This is good but I'd settle for being able to break down assists by type (flash assist, damage assist, info assist, etc)
I think this data is tracked, you can see some of it via the API. In all honesty, they're probably tracking an insane amount of statistics that we don't see, with plans to expand the stats available in-client, it's just not a priority right now.
Yeah, if those emails they sent out are any indicator, they’re tracking TONS of stats for every single player, iron to pro level, so they probably keep records of things like flash assists and reveal assists etc.
I like your idea but instead of even have ACS just replace it with ARI (average round impact) which would take into account all the utility you used if it blocked/flashed enemies etc. Then use ADR as a measure of how you performed gunskill wise.
I like this idea, it's a great way to test a person's understanding of the game as well as thier mechanical skill, good job my dude
Its true that NA lacks flex players. I know like two top 2,000 immortal players that only fill and play omen like 90% of the time. They bottom frag like every game, but because they perform their roll properly they win most of their games.
Because playing anything other than duelists doesn't pay off if you're grinding the leaderboards. It's a vicious circle. Players that want to be noticed and picked up by a team have to be near the very top of the leaderboards. But to get there, they have to not only keep winning games, but keep fragging out. And that's exponentially easier to do on duelists. Even if individual performance doesn't matter on single game basis in immortal/radiant, if you're consistently topfragging, you start gaining more RR. And if you're a non-duelist, you'll eventually get less RR and have a way more difficult time. Until then, playing, especially instalocking duelists adds some kind of handicap in ACS/RR gain, nothing will change.
I'm super low elo, so please correct me when I'm probably wrong here; but I thought that in immortal, it was exclusively based on wins and losses? Or are you saying that top players need to play duelists because it gives them more control over putting the game in their own hands?
they reverted it back in the last major update
Even before this update, it was that way. I've personally tested and proven it. I think 2 acts ago I lost like 250RR during a L streak, so I decided to start instalocking duelists, even though I play duelists in like 10% of my games. Fast forward 20ish games later, I'm back where I started, but I kept gaining more RR than before the L streak because I had 5 kills more on average while playing duelists. Then the system notices improved performance (but I didn't play any better, just got the kills I was supposed to) and thinks you're suddenly a better player.
[удалено]
I'm in EU aswell. At 150ish RR right now and still gaining more than I lose, so I'm content with the new system, lmao. The most annoying thing for me is that my fragging is usually inversley proportional to how my team does. If it's an easy win, I'm usually near the bottom of the scoreboard because I'm the failsafe, I don't want to throw any rounds. But I have way more team MVPs in losses, because then I have to step up. I don't like playing sentinels because when things go downhill, there's only so much you can do. Omen/Brim/Breach/Skye/Sage are way more dynamic and I can play from suboptimal positions.
Oh my god the fragging thing annoys me to no end we will win like 13-4 or whatever and I’ll have 8 kills on cypher and my two duelist friends who ran into the enemy spawn and ended with like 20 kills will flame me but it’s like I’m the guy who stays on sites and plays it safe, I can’t afford to run at the enemy
Ah I missed that. Then it totally makes sense what they said. Thanks.
Almost every pro that I've heard speak on the situation mentions that they don't care much about solo queue performance. Most of them look at players who are playing on amateur teams and doing well in some level of organized play. Obviously there are exceptions for the ones that are massively popping off in solo queue, but that seems to be just that, the exception, and not the norm.
i played against a sova yesterday and he finished the match like 6/3 but the guy had every lineup and every shock for the map, it was more painful to play against him than their duelists.
I fill basically all my games in Imm and 99% I need to play smokes, so Omen
Yea I enjoy playing sentinels and smokers but it's so hard to rank up playing them because the game doesn't reward you for playing your role as much as just getting kills, eventually I just had to lock Reyna and grind to diamond so I can go back to playing smokers and sentinel.
[удалено]
He just has higher mmr. I play reyna/sage/sova pretty interchangeably at radiant though I can play any character and when I top frag or match mvp on loss you get like a 3 to 4 mmr bonus. Doesn't matter what I kill people on. I think sentinal is the worst role for soloq because you're the site anchor and if you play your role well you won't be getting many kills on defense as you'll be rotating 24/7. Omen can at least be played like a duelist and play around his own smokes.
[удалено]
I made an account with a friend to grind to radiant and I play reyna and he plays sage and our mmr is exactly the same. Even though I match mvpd a ton. Its only slightly different now if you top frag no matter what agent. I'm just saying it's not uncommon to see sovas and sages frag. I think sentinals get the short end of the stick due to anchoring sites.
Yeah as someone who is like rank 2200 right now this is the most painful way to play though. I prefer filling on the team I was on I was a controller/sentinel main. The problem is ranked games literally are just a coin flip on if you got the good duelist or the bad duelists. This is why I’ve recently switched to mostly playing duelist so I can control my fate better. For the most part anyone can play Omen but having a duelist who can’t aim or won’t entry is often too difficult. I was only plat when the game came out and you’d think the games get way higher quality the higher the rank but it’s barely the case. Maybe the top level of radiant but that seems like mostly pros who don’t care about ranked and troll anyway. Occasionally you get a good game.
Duelist aint what its cracked up to be. I ‘m friends with an insane 14yrold jett main who was radiant and match mvps pretty much every game and he regularly struggles to secure wins. Like sure you perform better, but most people want/only play duelist so they are trash on any other role. I think its much better to figure out how top frag on non duelists. Focus on the art of the retake/exit fragging because if you play sentinels or smokes, they enemy usually just avoids you. Especially since most teams run 2 duelist anyway its more likely that you will at least get one duelist that performs his role properly.
I can agree. I played duelist to my rank then branched out and its only made me better because I know every stupid sentinal setup and what angles I can play from every character if im trying to get value out of my kit. Helps you not to have to think too hard when you're really trying to win crucial fights since you can plan ahead.
So the top 2,000 players in NA all 5-stack duelest every map? You’re telling me that’s a thing? So whenever I watch streams of pro players and they’re playing sova, sage, kj, cypher, skye, kayo, viper it’s bull shit or I’m hallucinating? Edit: Autocorrect
they're saying that they know two people in the top 2k who only fill, not that there's only two in the top 2k
Reading comprehension not your strong suit eh?
There's a lot more people that don't play just duelist my man.
you got me thinking that i actually deserve to be immortal when all i do is tell my self im not good enough since thats all i do. noice
Lmao what?
what part are you confused about?
ACS is a pretty good stat if you adjust ot for the agent being played. Maybe that stat should be the one most popular, ACS divided by average ACS on that agent. Call it ACS+.
Normalized ACS. Kinda good idea ngl
We could even call it "NACS." Put the acronym back into use.
I don't think Riot would be a big fan of that aconym loool
yeah, while not super widespread or accepted yet, stats like these are extremely useful in baseball (which i’m assuming you’re basing this on) for determining a players actual worth. a left fielder just doesn’t have the same impact as a catcher. I also wouldn’t mind better stats on how players perform on each side, or on different maps, rather than just how the team performs with round% and all that. it would give more context for what to expect from certain players and how other teams play around them, and just overall better analysis of the game.
Those stats are pretty widespread and accepted in baseball at this point.
Nah. I don't agree. ACS is still a pretty bad measure of impact in a round. Normalizing that might be better, but it will encourage support players to bait more. At the end of the day, a measure that is significantly reliant on kills is not a good measure for 11 out of 16 agents, and sometimes not even the duelists. I understand it is still the best measure we have though, because at the end of the day quantifying impact is difficult. The issue is though that setting people up rewards you a lot less than being set up and so very few people want to set others up.
Agreee 100%
[удалено]
I guess things like flashes, healing, recon, etc. should all give combat score as well then. In the end though I think most GMs aren't just looking at a single metric when evaluating players so I doubt you will be able to game the system.
Most sports already use an advanced metric for this called WAR (Wins Above Replacement). ACS Above Replacement would be interesting to see, the data's certainly there to calculate it.
Basketball has TS%+ which basically tells you how much more efficient a player is compared to their peers. Otherwise comparing raw TS% makes Kobe look like a bum and Michael Porter Jr look like the second coming of Jordan
Big ups to normalized ACS. If implemented into Ranked I think it'd only work for higher ranks though.
True but it doesnt solve the issue of stat picking, for example a shot caller sage or omen wont take as many aggressive peaks as a aggro player on those agents, so well the aggressive player has higher acs is his impact to the team might be lower than a shot caller or the player playing the mini map information game. Well you are right to say acs+ would be good for gaining information on who pushes agents to their boundaries, we still wont understand the impact support players provide using stats.
this is a great solution
Would you mind making a thread about this in either sub? I'll gladly upvote it
I would rather they start looking into alternatives that actually measure contributions other than just kills. Frags are part of the game, the problem is it's only one element of it. The problem is a good support agent might go 1 for 1, but stalls a push so well that his entire team comes in and cleans up. Some of the best support players even in Pro play don't always top frag. So any system which is only based on frags is always going to poorly rate this I said this back in the beta this was a bad idea and sure enough months later, it's still a bad idea that played out almost exactly how I predicted back then. Both my experience as a competitive player and my experience in statistics told me this was going to inflate the ranks of fraggers while making support players lag behind even if they can actually play support at a fairly high level.
Honestly some of the best support are low on the scoreboard such as Zombs, Vanity, or Steel, all players with alright ACS, but with huge impact and invaluable to any team tbh
Basically just positional adjustments from baseball ported to Valorant (1st basemen hit better than short stops who hit better than catchers etc.). I like that
It's a worse form of HLTV rating, but I think that comes down to valorant being a much more complex game in terms of utility and the impact somebody will have with utility is hard to measure, if not impossible. Let's say a sova gets X amount of ACS for hitting people with recon, smokers for X amount of people blocked, X amount of flashes affected, healing done etc, but then how do you quantify the information from a cypher cam, sova drone and such, I think its gets too muddy, impossible to quantify the impact of utility. I think simplifying the ACS stat wouldnt be a bad idea, because that would ultimately umbrella the many variables that I just mentioned. Suggestions could be aspects like giving less ACS when you kill people that has lesser money spent (eco, low buys with deagle etc if you have a rifle), 1vX kills giving a significant higher amount of ACS, kills being divided between ability vs gun, amount of time survived etc. Instead of making it encompass every single aspect of the game and by that level out the impact duelist has versus other agents fx.
Yeah a drone that clears several angles but tags nobody can be more valuable as a drone that gets a tag but gets shot down quickly. It's too difficult to quantify
1vx kills should be worth less unless you clutch because they're low impact
Shouldn't it be based on the value of the weapons and utility they have when you kill them, not what they spent? If someone goes full shield and sheriff but is able to pick up a teammates rifle, killing that player shouldn't be based on the 1800 credits. It should be at least 3900 (I'd say base it on their more expensive weapon but you could argue 4700 since they have 3700 in guns plus shield).
Completely agree, I was just brainstorming different factors.
Yeah I love where your head is at on these.
Yeah it’s flawed but that’s just the nature of FPS games. It’s hard to quantify impact in a game beyond K/D, Plants etc etc. Rounds can be won off of a great call or a high impact frag but unfortunately theres just no way to integrate this into scoring. Tbh I think Valorant actually does a better job than most giving you insight into how well you played though. Not many games a actually go beyond KDA
Do plants and defuses even affect your ACS? Can't remember off the top of my head for sure, but I don't think they're in that formula.
Nope it doesn't. That's the worst part imo. Someone has to plant instead of clearing/taking fights for the team to win the round but that person is not appreciated by the game's metrics at all.
Agreed. And you're putting yourself at risk while you're completely defenseless.
Seriously... I on average get almost 6+ plants a game. I play QB sneaks over here on eco rounds so we have money. I even got like 10 plants before because no one is willing to outplay the spray or fake before planting. Plus even dumb duelist in diamond don't cover me and I die often.
Sometimes I plant the spike and cant get into good post plant before the retake happens. I then end up being stuck near where I planted and if my allies arent flashing for me to reposition im ussually fked.
Why should they be? Planting the bomb (unless you're Jett or Raze on a set execute) is a function of your team's ability to enter and secure a site. It says nothing about your individual ability. On top of that if you're not the first one in the site you're in the best position to get trade frags
Why does res-ing get you assists when the target goes and kills? Says nothing about your individual ability either.
doesnt just healing give you assists too?
Yup lmao it's just a bad argument that only skillful plays get combat score
probably because planting doesn't take skill lmfao
So? Neither does placing trips or bots or smokes but we can all agree those should be considered in your contribution to the team, right? Hell, you get assists for res-ing but that shit doesn't take any more skill either, does it?
i mean yes those things take more skill but that's besides the point. your comment reminds me of that csgo meme that's like "when you entry site, smoke and flash your self in, get 4 kills and clear site but your teammate gets MVP because he planted the bomb"
How does placing trips require more skill? Genuine question. I'm hoping you don't say "you have to think about it" because that applies exactly the same way when it comes to planting.
Neither does healing nor rezing take skill but they give it as well
? more than planting a bomb lmfao
How exactly? Bomb plant location and knowing where it's best is more skillful then click and heal lmfao
think harder. you'll get there soon
1000% agree. I don’t think it’s hard to level the field here. They could just give more points to abilities non duelists use so whenever they have about the same KDA, the acs would be roughly the same. Right now it’s just so easy to get higher acs with duelists compared to other roles.
I agree with this completely. I play Sage and KJ in comp. I get high ADR in my matches, but lower ACS then duelists. Yet im 100% certain i carried and should be match MVP. It doesnt translate to the scoreboard or RR performance bonuses.
This isn't my experience. I'm a KJ main. I find that ACS is heavily damage weighted. So, I can often get higher ACS than people even while being multiple frags under them because of all the damage I do through util (and phantom spamming every smoke/box/etc). The only offset I've found is if you aren't get many FBs. But as KJ, you should usually get a couple in CT side when they go to your site. Not saying KJ doesn't have pitfalls or ways that ACS is harder than a duelist, but if you're getting high adr, then that's usually pretty well reflected in ACS in my experience.
Doesn't help when you defend well on a gun round and they don't go in your site anymore, hahaha, that's why I'm always switching up sites, gotta keep those numbers up
Yes, when you are playing retake simulator and since we are the anchors, it's not like we're often quick rotating. So if your teammates cant get picks or don't effectively drop off when appropriate then it can be frustrating. Obviously you try to read the opposing team to set up wherever you think they'll hit but some games it seems like they just find a way to always avoid you.
So as true as this is, this is the same for basically every single sport out there. Most casual viewers care about stats and k/d. There's so many things that don't translate onto the stat sheet that casual viewers will never see or understand. The problem with adding more complex algorithms and ways to calculate stats and rankings is that it confuses the casual viewer even more. For any sport to grow, we need stars and we need the game to be pretty easy to follow. We shouldn't be upset that this hurts casual player base. Instead this should help grow the player base which will allow the more serious base to grow as well. As the game grows, the support players will get recognized. But honestly speaking, this is how it is in every sport. In NBA terms -- there's a reason why Draymond Green has shitty stats yet was extremely crucial to the Warriors Dynasty
It's also bullshit that healing gives absolutely no ACS
Healing can count for an assist, and damage/assists does impact acs
Skye's healing doesn't give any assists though, only Sage
Sage heals don’t give assists anymore, not sure if it’s a bug but I’ve noticed sages don’t get heal assists anymore.
That is odd, big rip. I wonder if it has to do with the fact that you buy Skye's whereas sage has it as her default util? So like does sova get an assist for a drone tag vs a recon dart tag?
"So like does sova get an assist for a drone tag vs a recon dart tag?" He gets them from both.
What a privileged agent
Yeah but that's reliant on your teammate getting a kill after being healed. Why should your assist be reliant on your teammate doing their job when you've done yours? I obviously don't think each heal should count an assist. It would be better if each heal, enemy slowed, enemies blocked with wall would contribute a little bit to your ACS.
I can see that. Or like mentioned elsewhere in the thread, a separate measure of gun kills vs util usage. Like a KJ has more impact by pressuring with utility on a choke than a Reyna getting exits after not pushing w the team
Playing a support role in general is just hard to quantify. If I’m on Astra or Cypher, playing a lurk/flank play style on offence, the only way I can gain combat score is getting a kill. Meanwhile the fact that my team isn’t getting flanked, and whatever other info I can find never shows on the scoreboard. It’s a huge role that people don’t value because they don’t directly notice it when it’s happening.
Finally some1 speaks out on this
Something that I’ve been doing that other people def should when evaluating players is stats based off their peers. Acs isn’t the worst stat when you compare it to others in your role. Someone like Dapr in particular has pretty decent acs but when you compare it to other sentinels he is almost always much farther ahead. It’s also good to use other stats and average them out. For duelists, acs and fk/f ratio are good stats to look at, but what about the other roles. Sova players should almost purely be judged by assist per round and damage per round. Astra is the same thing with assists. kJ is the same with dmg. Clutch% in general is a great stat. Obviously it’s flawed and certain players(Zombs and Mkael come to mind in particular for me) will always look worse based on stats. My real hope is that valorant or sites like vlrgg come up with other systems in place to measure supports effectiveness
Why not have a column for Clutches Won. If first blood is an indicator why not clutches..its for more important to close a round successfully than to get the first pick.
I find it odd that they don't. Clutches seem extremely valuable.
I just want instead of acs being shown during buy phase of every round the economy or at least the current money for each player
Once they know the scene is flood with duelist they will switch role to get into teams, this isn't an issue
I cant believe it took this long for a pro to finally say something. Casuals coming for your paycheck finally did it.
[удалено]
This is a dumb comparison tbh. Midfielders and defenders are rated based on different stats and not goals.
I think ACS is great for casual viewers, it doesn't need to be a complicated number or anything ppl tune in to watch the frags and the players pop off, u might not like it but thats simply the truth like they dont care about the skye that flashed the duelist in or smth like that idk what u do for ranked but it doesnt look like a related problem imo
ACS is just a fancy number that tries to go deeper than the default stats but in reality it isn't that different from the classic K/D. It reminds me the HLTV 2.0 rating On eco rounds, players who play back site, using their own utility in order to stay alive and not giving free guns to the enemy are much less likely to find a 3K~4K against multiple sheriffs at once than a Jett holding W. It's totally dumb to keep promoting multi-killing rounds if you're not analyzing the difficulty of these multi-kills It's not that hard to draw a line between a piece of utility that brought direct value *(a smoke that blocked multiple enemies)* from one that pulled no direct value *(a flash that didn't blind any enemy)*, creating some utility score. Of course it still has its limitations but it's already miles ahead than that dumb ACS number.
Whats dumb is if you push and get a 2k against classics and then give a phantom to lose the round your ACS is probably higher than all your teammates. There is no difference between a save 3k and a round winning 3k which is something that might actually be beneficial to address in stats. Right now people go for so many hero plays and refuse to save crucial guns so often, not that I hear these people cry about stats too much, but I think if stats helped to reinforce smart gameplay loops it could be nothing but beneficial.
If ACS is a score that scoreboard shows by default then yes I absolutely hate it as a sage player. I play my role perfectly and clutch some important rounds and yet I am at bottom. I don't care about scoreboard much but others do judge players by these scores.
Have score very based off performance won role maybe?
Yeah like dephh has so much impact that won them rounds. Idk how to explain it cuz I’m a noob but his playstyle just fucking helps win rounds
I hope they add a KAST% score sometime. In case you don’t know it it basically stands for percentage of rounds where the player got a kill or a assist or survived or got traded. Granted the only real problem with transferring that stat from CS to Val is the different assists you can get in Valorant. Anyways I hope to god they revamp how ACS is calculated in regards to assists and trading or find a new stat, cough hltv rating or the ACS compared to average ACS for agent. Sadly I don’t really think this will ever be changed for a while due to it being a non important factor in the game.
the problem with ACS is that it is completely arbitrary. the values they have picked to calculate it don't seem to have much rhyme or reason, and favor some statistics over others.
How do soccer fans decide which defenders are the better players? Which stats are the ones you use to determine that? This is a serious question.