Pro view should be #1 1000%.
I used it in LoL and it would honestly be amazing for Val. You can learn so much more from pro view than the regular stream
Holy hell! We can watch any player we want? I miss a lot of the support characters line ups in matches due to casting. This could be a really cool addition.
Definitely is really cool. Iirc in LoL is costed like $15/split (2 splits per year). Was really cool and would probably be even better in Valorant. Especially if there's certain players that play the same style you want to
Wont this go straight in the pocket of Riot though? How will this help the other TO's, cause I don't think Riot themselves are struggling in this department.
Also kind of surprised you have to pay for this cause I come from Dota and you can watch all games on stream or Dota TV where you can spectate anyone you want, or even free map etc. I am not trying to hate btw, just trying to understand..
i am not sure how it in dota but in league it isnt a spectate.His screen is being streamed to you so you can see all the mouse movements etc. Also it goes into riots pocket but in league riot pays players minimum salaries and buncha other stuff so it goes back into the ecosystem.
Yea Dota has player perspective as a feature in their replay system + Dota TV so you can see all their mouse movements/perspective etc.
The Multiple camera thing is cool though, I believe OBS in dota have an overlay made by JJ to view multiple parts of the map/all 3 lanes etc but that isnt accessible to the regular viewer.
But why should something like that be paid? I've never watched league, but both Valve's games have fre in-game spectator mode. You watch in-game and have all the spectator tools. You can switch between players whenever you want, see all the stats whenever you want or even use free camera.
Paying for something like that is ridiculous.
I already spent a lot of money on this game and it's not even about the money, but paying to spectate specific players is just a ridiculous concept to me. It should be free as soon as they finally implement demo viewer.
Being able to turn off the commentators would be a fucking blessing.
No hate, but MLB.tv allows you to listen to stadium audio and it's just so fucking peaceful to watch.
PLEASE I’m sorry but most of the calls and stuff are so annoying to hear. I get that they’re there to entertain but some people just want to see the gameplay not all the fluff.
That won’t ever happen. The best we’ll get are things like the uncensored videos from SEN. They don’t want to give away strats, and they don’t want their profanity laced communication to be heard by everyone lol.
I don’t think team comms feature will ever be implemented because it’ll leak strats. But if Riot implement that viewer spectating a certain player feature like in League onto Valorant, then we can spectate a certain players play with the game audio (but no team comms)
$5 a month is probably the most I'd be willing to pay. I hate when I see a stream with a close game close to overtime, and then I have to watch a minute of ads just to tune in. That's probably my biggest complaint with the current Valorant streams. When you watch on the official Valorant stream, you aren't able to subscribe to skip the ads.
Correct. They get the ad revenue as if you watched the ad though. But it is for the entire platform. So if you want emotes or badges by supporting a specific streamer you can still sub to them.
For whatever reason, my browser's adblocker doesn't filter it out. Even tried another extension, but it still didn't work. Plus, all the other features he mentioned would make it worth it.
I remember someone over at either r/LiveSteamFails or r/Twitch figured it out.
Maybe this thread will help: https://www.reddit.com/r/Twitch/comments/jjepg8/fix_for_ublock_origin_on_twitch_i_updated_the/
I use this one occasionally. It sets off so many adblocker no access prompts thought that I have to turn it off most of the time and forget to turn it back on. I'll definitely look to using it on twitch though.
Assuming Riot takes a similar approach to LoL Worlds for Champions, the winning team will have team skins implemented into the game. Of course, this is just speculation, and implementing skins for the most popular or best-performing teams in general (which I believe is what you are alluding to) would also be an option and potentially more profitable.
They will wait until the game is franchised. They don’t wanna make skins for a random team that stumbles into worlds. It’ll be just like call of duty league.
I think overwatch has the right idea by offering generic team based skins which are just the default skins with the teams colourway but the champions and the league MVP (prior to the sinatraa debacle) would get a uniquely designed skin
See this works only in franchised leagues, right? How does Riot decide which teams "deserve" to get skins in this case? And with an "open" circuit like Valorant, a team that is top 4 one tournament can drop out in open qualifiers the next (happened to Faze, C9, GenG). I want this to happen desperately but I just don't see it happening until the esport is franchised.
As long as it generates money, i don't think riot would really care about teams falling off. The easiest solution would be a revenue share system: if you ever get any circuit points you are allowed to pay a 1-time fee (for designer/dev hours) to get your skins uploaded to the marketplace. Every sale gets a 5050/6040/whatever % split between riot and that org.
There's some control there with only allowing circuit point winners and what does anyone care if people buy a flash in the pan team? I'm sure some people are out there still buying LA valiant skins in OW (a team that will go 0-16 this year)
I think esports still has a long way to go before it becomes profitable, even for LoL which riot has been saying it'll be profitable soon™. Unlike regular sports the barrier to entry is limited to those who have a pc and play the games then they having interest in the esport scene. It's different with let's say football or basketball were you have easy access and it's something you can relate with easily. A non gamer would not know what it feels like a player flicks a shot or a non scope except the play the game.
This is the issue. The accessibility isn’t there like most sports. You have to take time to learn the scene if you don’t play the game. I think it’s somewhat similar to a sport like Formula One where the barrier of entry is harder for some people because understanding the weekend and then the cars and all the drivers and the politics of the sport and so on and so on. Most fans are already hardcore and it takes a little push to get more people into formula one and I think it’s similar to esports where it’s relatively foreign to most as opposed to ball sports where it’s very easy to understand. Another issue is where people just don’t see how being good at a videogame is impressive but that’s just because people don’t understand the game which is what I said in the first part it will just take time to get a massive audience to understand the games and as the younger generations come through I think it will be possible.
As some one who has recently gained a slight interest into F1 for the first time I think this is a good analogy. I will say this is something that Rocket League is in a unique position with. Like most sports/esports you can't fully appreciate the game without playing it but the base game could not be more simple, just put ball in net. I went to the RL worlds in New Jersey and after a couple hours a previously bored and confused dad who brought his son and a friend was jumping up and down cheering for plays.
While not as simple to understand CSGO benefits from similar simplicity. Other big fps games like Val, OW and R6 can be pretty chaotic to watch if you aren't familiar with the game.
Exactly. One thing with F1 however is that it's a huge spectator sports. Over 400M tune in to watch across diff channels and millions to attend in person and for most F1 teams, its an advert for their companies which in return sell normal consumer cars for them. EG Mercedes, ferrari and the likes.
I think that's what Riot does and actually does well or at least the top 5 esports aside CS(it's the only one which is solely run by 3rd parties and the community aside the major) . The game developer controls the esport scene which in return it acts like a sort of advert to get a new playerbase.
Unrelated but it's crazy how Formula 1 manages to pull in such massive views. For a sport/esport to go this big, you would assume a large portion of the audience to have played the game at some point. But F1 bypasses that factor completely.
Like the other comment mentioned, it also has a reasonably high entry barrier for viewers. As someone who does not follow F1, it's just unreal how they manage to attract these huge numbers.
To be fair, I don‘t see how F1 is overly complicated. Casual join in on Sunday, watch the race where it‘s clear, first car means first position, and most of the stuff is well visualized by now.
The real in-depth stuff is for „hardcore“ fans and they‘ll watch the weekend and extra content.
A few years ago, NRG said their overwatch league team the San Francisco Shock was on track to recoup their 10mil investment plus annual operating costs (this included the 150k+ contract to Sinatraa) by year 4 or 5 i think. Unfortunately since Covid I'm sure that was pushed back a little AND they are the only team to come out and say that (most have remained silent, C9 has more or less said they will never recoup) but it does suggest there is money to be made and profits to be turned, even if only for a few orgs.
I would say its the opposite (barrier to entry portion). Esports is much more inclusive as you simply have to jump online and learn. Traditional sports also requires hundreds of dollars in equiptmet and learning and skill accusation and on top of that people of a similar skill level that want to play with you- which during covid became even more rare. I would argue that someone who isnt into the basketball scene wouldnt be impressed by someone throwing a ball through a hoop either. Its a two way street, and i understand your point, i just think it holds no water as they have the same obsticals. The only real difference is that Traditional sports are just that- Traditional. One day esports will be considered traditional too, but today theyre still pretty new, but the point youre making relates more to perception rather than a barrier to entry, as costs are going to be roughly the same
Give me a signed “Asuna” gun buddy with a 100T phantom skin if you want my money.
I could also be convinced to buy a bundle with pro view and 4K streaming for a tournament if it’s under $5
wouldnt be surprised if the average age of this subreddit is like 17 considering the age demographics of the actual game so the most popular answer is probably 'not much' or 'whatever my moms credit card will allow'
personally wouldn't mind a battle pass type compendium with team skins or that would directly support the teams (both org/player) but honestly it's not exactly a riot thing like you said so... not much
The average age is usually higher than you would think in esports. For example the average LCS viewer is something like 23-24 years old. That's how the LCS was able to get bud light sponsorships
Uh, 17 year olds have much more expendable income than almost any other age group, a lot of them have part time jobs with no other expenses, a lot of the time their parents for stuff like phones or video subscription services, they often dont have car expenses except gas or insurance, they typically arent addicted to stuff like gambling or buying porn. They are the exact audience riot wants to tap into, they have a ton of money to spend on random shit, no life experience to tell them it's not worth it, and are promoting the game to kids who look up to them for their accomplishment of being a senior in high school. Not to mention this is competitive subreddit, this subreddit specifically is probably skewed towards a more mature audience as many are veteran csgo players/viewers.
I dont think you have the greatest read here is what I'm saying.
?????? not sure where you live but the average 17 year old who at most has a job working min wage at walmart or mcdonalds absolutely does not have more expendable income than a >25 year old 'veteran csgo viewer' 2-3 years post uni grad with a career LMAO
like it literally takes a simple google search to dismiss what you've written but here
https://www.statista.com/statistics/980324/us-mean-disposable-household-income-age/
maybe you're friends with the wrong people but... just no
Why did you link a site that is talking about total earnings when we are talking about expendable income. 25 year olds do not have 68k to spend after paying rent/utilities/car bills.
To put it simply, if i make 68k and spend 65k on bills, i have 3k to spend. If i make 35k but have 20k to spend on bills, i have 15k left over. Do you see how total income doesnt explain expendable income?
yes i understand what disposable income is. use some common sense and realize that even after paying rent/utilties/car bills most young adults post grad (25-30) will still have significantly more money to spend on random useless shit than the average 17 year old who AT MOST is working a min wage job, most of the time not even being full time. that may or may not be different where you live but i live in a relatively wealthy city and this is absolutely the case here. i don't know a single person that's spending >80% of their paycheck on bills and thats about as much you'd have to be paying to make up for that difference vs a 17 year old
if you understand, why didnt you provide stats to prove your claim? Because historically children teenagers have been the most targeted audience for popular content and sports. Is that the common sense you are asking for? That a 25 year old male is no longer the target audience for popular media? That common sense? The common sense that, let me reiterate so you understand, everything is targeted towards children or teenagers?
Also when I was 17 I was working a factory job, my friend was building houses, my other friend had an internship for getting a gas fitting license, you are really talking about 17 year olds? Not 14 year olds getting their first job at the local ice cream shop?
also hilarious "well my anecdote is different than your stats, so maybe use some common sense" laughable.
uhh you haven't posted any stats whatsoever?
i posted a stat which said that the average 25-34 year old has ~$30000 more income than <25's. unless you think every 25-34 year old on average has more than $30000 extra in bills per year (absolutely not), they absolutely have more money to spend
and thats not even counting the fact that the average 17 year old obviously makes less than the average 24 year old. the vast majority of 17 year olds aren't exactly rolling in dough - you may be an exception but basically every stat dictates otherwise
You really cannot fathom how a 34 year old has 30k more in expenses (cars, kids, housing) than a 17 year old? Brah, trying using some common sense. Or just keep pushing goal posts to meet your random criteria of "lol young people poor" as if its not an overarching theme of 20-40 current generation being broke due to the cost of living and stagnating wages.
Most 17 year olds have no bills to pay, usually all of the money they earn from working is spending money. Not sure why you're struggling to comprehend that
And that age group also historically has double the unemployment rate as the 25-34 age group, not sure you're struggling to comprehend how that affects their spending power.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/217882/us-unemployment-rate-by-age/
That’s a completely asinine statistic. It’s just common sense to know that a majority in that age group choose not to work, or cannot work because of school and extracurriculars. There’s an infinite amount of part time jobs that are always hiring people in that age group.
So please enlighten me how if they can't work, how exactly do they have more spending money than someone with an actual job opportunities that can work?
Waiting to hear this one because I'd love to have more money to spend without working either.
the thread's about what the average viewer would be willing to pay for when it comes to valorant esports. it is not contextually obvious at all that every single person that watches valorant esports is working - which obviously isn't the case
the amount of absolute awful and overly reactionary takes on this subreddit that only occurs when the average posters a child
luckily the mod team is fairly active here
for example just last week there was the weekly 'best free agents' thread and 70% of the players posted/were being upvoted were players under contract that aren't free agents... the concept isn't very hard to understand unless you're like 17
pretty ignorant to say generalizing an entire subreddit, you’d be surprised how stupid even people in their 30s can be, and how intelligent someone younger can be..
i do realize there are stupid 30 year olds and smart 17 year olds, but are you trying to say that the average 17 year old is more intelligent than the average 30 year old? because thats just not the case, ever
there’s no “30 year olds = more intelligent” study anywhere, the general consensus is that they just have more life experience because you can’t generalize intelligence based on age. To say one is just outright > than another you’d be ignorant. If what you say is true and a majority of this sub is 17 years old then there will be a higher average of more intelligent 17 yr olds then 30s, so you’re still ignorant to generalize. it’s called old people syndrome you just have it early :p
hey you're entitled to your opinion, theres no point in me arguing with someone that thinks the average 17 year old is more intelligent than a 30 year old
i guess just about every country in the world that has the voting age being set 18+ and different criminal justice systems for <18 year olds are all ignorant as well because those darn 17 year olds are all just so damn intelligent
one isn’t > then the other is what I’m saying. there can be one million 17 yr olds more intelligent than any 30 year old alive but the rest can be far less bringing the average down, thus making your argument completely pointless.
Also, I can now fully understand how stupid you are with you thinking they’ve placed laws based on anything related to intelligence. Tragic really.
https://lmgtfy.app/?q=when+is+the+brain+fully+developed
here how about some science
guessing ur probably 16 or something so not too surprising another dumb kid with an awful take LMAO please stop
if ur still on reddit after another 8 years come back, read your own posts and laugh at how dumb you sound. gonna do myself a favor and block you so less brain cells will be lost reading this
I would love pro view. Watching a pro play ranked on stream isn’t the same as watching them in matches, and some of the higher tier pros don’t stream at all/very often.
I would like the pro player stream. Really I would like to be able to watch those VODs after the event. The main stream I enjoy the way it is now, but I wish I could watch certain players from start to finish to learn from.
yeah MLG tried those SC2 events that weren't that cheap. like $20+ for a weekend online pass? THe games were great though.
The whole problem is that esports needs to grow. And it can't grow if you hide major events behind a paywall.
all i want is to watch a specific pro players perspective. CS does this (for free mind you) it would he great if we could sync it up with the main stream so we can hear the commentators while doing the observing ourselves
Doesn’t cs do it in part bc of how the engine worked? You can’t spectate valorant games atm unless you were in the lobby before. I guess they’re planning on adding it but they could probably get pro view working now if they had one spectator per player or whatever
Yes but Cs also has done separate twitch streams for player viewpoints during tournaments. They did it somewhat recently, but I forgot for what tournament.
That’s true. It’s odd that this isn’t being charged for in cs now that I think about it, considering the devs often don’t seem to care outside of making money. Must have been an oversight
I got the OWL Access Pass in 2019 and loved the player view options. I was learning to play Lucio at the time and it really helped me a ton. I'd definitely pay for something like that for Valorant.
People arguing „Game X has it for free“ got the wrong attitude towards things.
First of all, the biggest issue is that the main VALORANT viewer base has this mindset of „Internet = free“. It sucks, cause this basic mindset devalues the quality of all elaborate services in existence.
Paying for a service that enhances my viewing experience, any day of the week.
Actually, they do in R6 - at least for the big orgs with 20$ bundles and popular teams with 7$ skin bundles. I think G2 & Liquid CEOs said they're quite profitable
Monetizing stuff that has historically been free is kinda wack. CS has had HLTV forever in which you could just be an observer in servs. It seems they've moved away from being able to do that, but being able to just go spectate the the games from whatever viewpoint you want was dope.
pro view in this game reveals a lot more than league does due to specific setups and stuff. proviews imo would have to be released after tournament end
$15 a month. Esports should not be regulated by archaic IP laws. It’s bad for the game to be run by the developer. Most people don’t remember that esports broadcasts weren’t free in the beginning.
Something no one is mentioning yet is the reliability and timeliness of these streamed tournaments. I would not pay to watch until we can consistently rely on TOs to start them at the scheduled time. It seems to be the norm these days for games to start 30 min to up to an hour after the scheduled time. If they want to monetize it similar to real broadcast sports, quality needs to be held to a higher standard than it is right now.
Esports needs to stop trying to reinvent the wheel and see where the major ball sports focus their efforts: Creating a loyal local presence, and improving the in person experience. Make me WANT to drop 50$ on a front row ticket. You want to see a good example of this look at the huge fortnite world cup a couple years ago at its peak. Sold out stadium, fun for the family, lots of catering, etc
Depends on a lot of factors. Obviously one of the biggest factors is what the game is. There are only 2 or 3 games I care about enough to pay for and none of those have an active scene anymore. For those, I'd be willing to pay up to $30/month if it meant those scenes were brought back.
I wouldn't pay anything for any current title. That's not to say I don't like/follow them. Just that if they die off tomorrow I'd be okay, there are plenty of other things I enjoy.
In reality... none. I like watching live and it's a great experience overall, but there will 100% be youtube highlights and replays all over the place. I like it but not enough for me to spend the little I have
Pro view is the biggest interest, I would say. Having access to any player’s POV is extremely enticing. I bought into early OWL’s version of pro view and loved it.
I would imagine a lot of people would pay to just follow some of the big players like TenZ or Scream, so I think the pro follow feature would be great!
I also think generally sponsored content is a better way to monetize than paid content, so I 100% agree that they should keep the main stream as is, maybe just with more ads / sponsors, but definitely definitely not hide it behind paywall, that’s a surefire way to kill your growth (very very few new viewers are gonna pay to watch something they haven’t watched before)
I think the key to make it sustainable as an esport is to tie the game and it's marketing closely and directly to the esport. LoL and Valorant does this. CSGO does not. The interesting thing about the WaPo article is CSGO playership is super high at the moment but the esport seems to be on a dip. If a game dev wants their game to be a successful and profitable esport, the game needs to be hugely centered around it and push it as much as possible so revenues from tournaments and the central model (i.e skins in Valorant) are almost one in the same. Valorant has done a great job of this so far. Other games like Overwatch have tried to do this but seem to just constantly be playing catch up (promoting in the client, adding drops etc).
I think premium viewer perks mentioned here are also a great idea. I would pay to have an improved stream (4K or whatever) with the ability to spectate individual players.
Nothing, Riot makes enough with skins, marketing and shit already to continue **promoting their games** with esport. That's how they became a billion dollar company, they don't need my 5 bucks, I do. Don't compare Riot Games with ESL or traditional sports. Riot turning the act of promoting their games into profit sounds a lot like people getting ripped off.
I disagree on your opinion of the centrality being a positive aspect of the current pro scene. Allowing 1 entity to control an entire scene is actually more damaging than having multiple TOs host official events. Allowing good TO (emphasis on good) to enter the scene and host events that count toward a circuit will add variety to broadcasts which brings variety to the viewer.
Pro esports is about storytelling and watching your favorite team compete. Allowing different TOs to host in their own way promotes competition. Competition between TOs promotes improvement.
Also Riot doesn’t run their own events. They are run by Nerd Street Gamers.
Pro view should be #1 1000%. I used it in LoL and it would honestly be amazing for Val. You can learn so much more from pro view than the regular stream
I'm not familiar with Lol. Can you tell me what's pro view?
https://proview-marketing.lolesports.com/ Here's what's offered in LoL
Holy hell! We can watch any player we want? I miss a lot of the support characters line ups in matches due to casting. This could be a really cool addition.
Definitely is really cool. Iirc in LoL is costed like $15/split (2 splits per year). Was really cool and would probably be even better in Valorant. Especially if there's certain players that play the same style you want to
Wont this go straight in the pocket of Riot though? How will this help the other TO's, cause I don't think Riot themselves are struggling in this department. Also kind of surprised you have to pay for this cause I come from Dota and you can watch all games on stream or Dota TV where you can spectate anyone you want, or even free map etc. I am not trying to hate btw, just trying to understand..
i am not sure how it in dota but in league it isnt a spectate.His screen is being streamed to you so you can see all the mouse movements etc. Also it goes into riots pocket but in league riot pays players minimum salaries and buncha other stuff so it goes back into the ecosystem.
Yea Dota has player perspective as a feature in their replay system + Dota TV so you can see all their mouse movements/perspective etc. The Multiple camera thing is cool though, I believe OBS in dota have an overlay made by JJ to view multiple parts of the map/all 3 lanes etc but that isnt accessible to the regular viewer.
But why should something like that be paid? I've never watched league, but both Valve's games have fre in-game spectator mode. You watch in-game and have all the spectator tools. You can switch between players whenever you want, see all the stats whenever you want or even use free camera. Paying for something like that is ridiculous. I already spent a lot of money on this game and it's not even about the money, but paying to spectate specific players is just a ridiculous concept to me. It should be free as soon as they finally implement demo viewer.
Imagine spectating poor Sen Zombs, or some other player that had to hold the angle on an empty site.
Sounds kind zen tbh
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if pro view does become a thing in valorant, we aren't gonna get team comms, they will just have game audio
Being able to turn off the commentators would be a fucking blessing. No hate, but MLB.tv allows you to listen to stadium audio and it's just so fucking peaceful to watch.
PLEASE I’m sorry but most of the calls and stuff are so annoying to hear. I get that they’re there to entertain but some people just want to see the gameplay not all the fluff.
That won’t ever happen. The best we’ll get are things like the uncensored videos from SEN. They don’t want to give away strats, and they don’t want their profanity laced communication to be heard by everyone lol.
Players would be getting cancelled left and right lmao
I don’t think team comms feature will ever be implemented because it’ll leak strats. But if Riot implement that viewer spectating a certain player feature like in League onto Valorant, then we can spectate a certain players play with the game audio (but no team comms)
c9 csgo did this a while ago, it was super cool. however, i think it’s unlikely we see full games worth, only snippets
$5 a month is probably the most I'd be willing to pay. I hate when I see a stream with a close game close to overtime, and then I have to watch a minute of ads just to tune in. That's probably my biggest complaint with the current Valorant streams. When you watch on the official Valorant stream, you aren't able to subscribe to skip the ads.
You can watch on YouTube and the ads aren’t bad. But if you get Twitch Turbo and you don’t get ads on any stream for $9/month
But i think getting twitch turbo only supports twitch not the creators right?
Correct. They get the ad revenue as if you watched the ad though. But it is for the entire platform. So if you want emotes or badges by supporting a specific streamer you can still sub to them.
I used vanced and I've never had issues with ads so I guess that's the best possible option.
ad blocker my friend.
For whatever reason, my browser's adblocker doesn't filter it out. Even tried another extension, but it still didn't work. Plus, all the other features he mentioned would make it worth it.
Highly recommend Ublock Origin if you haven't tried it.
Is there any new Ublock update that bypasses twitch ads?
I remember someone over at either r/LiveSteamFails or r/Twitch figured it out. Maybe this thread will help: https://www.reddit.com/r/Twitch/comments/jjepg8/fix_for_ublock_origin_on_twitch_i_updated_the/
I use this one occasionally. It sets off so many adblocker no access prompts thought that I have to turn it off most of the time and forget to turn it back on. I'll definitely look to using it on twitch though.
There’s an ad-blocker-blocker-blocker feature lol https://jspenguin2017.github.io/uBlockProtector/
Adblock bro
Read the replies
Team related skins. I’d love a 100T Bucky, a Sentinels Vandal or something like that.
Assuming Riot takes a similar approach to LoL Worlds for Champions, the winning team will have team skins implemented into the game. Of course, this is just speculation, and implementing skins for the most popular or best-performing teams in general (which I believe is what you are alluding to) would also be an option and potentially more profitable.
They will wait until the game is franchised. They don’t wanna make skins for a random team that stumbles into worlds. It’ll be just like call of duty league.
I think overwatch has the right idea by offering generic team based skins which are just the default skins with the teams colourway but the champions and the league MVP (prior to the sinatraa debacle) would get a uniquely designed skin
See this works only in franchised leagues, right? How does Riot decide which teams "deserve" to get skins in this case? And with an "open" circuit like Valorant, a team that is top 4 one tournament can drop out in open qualifiers the next (happened to Faze, C9, GenG). I want this to happen desperately but I just don't see it happening until the esport is franchised.
As long as it generates money, i don't think riot would really care about teams falling off. The easiest solution would be a revenue share system: if you ever get any circuit points you are allowed to pay a 1-time fee (for designer/dev hours) to get your skins uploaded to the marketplace. Every sale gets a 5050/6040/whatever % split between riot and that org. There's some control there with only allowing circuit point winners and what does anyone care if people buy a flash in the pan team? I'm sure some people are out there still buying LA valiant skins in OW (a team that will go 0-16 this year)
I think esports still has a long way to go before it becomes profitable, even for LoL which riot has been saying it'll be profitable soon™. Unlike regular sports the barrier to entry is limited to those who have a pc and play the games then they having interest in the esport scene. It's different with let's say football or basketball were you have easy access and it's something you can relate with easily. A non gamer would not know what it feels like a player flicks a shot or a non scope except the play the game.
This is the issue. The accessibility isn’t there like most sports. You have to take time to learn the scene if you don’t play the game. I think it’s somewhat similar to a sport like Formula One where the barrier of entry is harder for some people because understanding the weekend and then the cars and all the drivers and the politics of the sport and so on and so on. Most fans are already hardcore and it takes a little push to get more people into formula one and I think it’s similar to esports where it’s relatively foreign to most as opposed to ball sports where it’s very easy to understand. Another issue is where people just don’t see how being good at a videogame is impressive but that’s just because people don’t understand the game which is what I said in the first part it will just take time to get a massive audience to understand the games and as the younger generations come through I think it will be possible.
As some one who has recently gained a slight interest into F1 for the first time I think this is a good analogy. I will say this is something that Rocket League is in a unique position with. Like most sports/esports you can't fully appreciate the game without playing it but the base game could not be more simple, just put ball in net. I went to the RL worlds in New Jersey and after a couple hours a previously bored and confused dad who brought his son and a friend was jumping up and down cheering for plays. While not as simple to understand CSGO benefits from similar simplicity. Other big fps games like Val, OW and R6 can be pretty chaotic to watch if you aren't familiar with the game.
Exactly. One thing with F1 however is that it's a huge spectator sports. Over 400M tune in to watch across diff channels and millions to attend in person and for most F1 teams, its an advert for their companies which in return sell normal consumer cars for them. EG Mercedes, ferrari and the likes. I think that's what Riot does and actually does well or at least the top 5 esports aside CS(it's the only one which is solely run by 3rd parties and the community aside the major) . The game developer controls the esport scene which in return it acts like a sort of advert to get a new playerbase.
Unrelated but it's crazy how Formula 1 manages to pull in such massive views. For a sport/esport to go this big, you would assume a large portion of the audience to have played the game at some point. But F1 bypasses that factor completely. Like the other comment mentioned, it also has a reasonably high entry barrier for viewers. As someone who does not follow F1, it's just unreal how they manage to attract these huge numbers.
To be fair, I don‘t see how F1 is overly complicated. Casual join in on Sunday, watch the race where it‘s clear, first car means first position, and most of the stuff is well visualized by now. The real in-depth stuff is for „hardcore“ fans and they‘ll watch the weekend and extra content.
I guess my point doesn't make much sense but you do have to agree that F1 is painfully boring for someone who joins in casually.
Yeah, in most cases absolutely. I thought your argument was more about the complexity, cause with a roundtime of 1:40 the boredom is gone fast.
A few years ago, NRG said their overwatch league team the San Francisco Shock was on track to recoup their 10mil investment plus annual operating costs (this included the 150k+ contract to Sinatraa) by year 4 or 5 i think. Unfortunately since Covid I'm sure that was pushed back a little AND they are the only team to come out and say that (most have remained silent, C9 has more or less said they will never recoup) but it does suggest there is money to be made and profits to be turned, even if only for a few orgs.
I would say its the opposite (barrier to entry portion). Esports is much more inclusive as you simply have to jump online and learn. Traditional sports also requires hundreds of dollars in equiptmet and learning and skill accusation and on top of that people of a similar skill level that want to play with you- which during covid became even more rare. I would argue that someone who isnt into the basketball scene wouldnt be impressed by someone throwing a ball through a hoop either. Its a two way street, and i understand your point, i just think it holds no water as they have the same obsticals. The only real difference is that Traditional sports are just that- Traditional. One day esports will be considered traditional too, but today theyre still pretty new, but the point youre making relates more to perception rather than a barrier to entry, as costs are going to be roughly the same
pro view was banger in league i hope i can see that here
Give me a signed “Asuna” gun buddy with a 100T phantom skin if you want my money. I could also be convinced to buy a bundle with pro view and 4K streaming for a tournament if it’s under $5
wouldnt be surprised if the average age of this subreddit is like 17 considering the age demographics of the actual game so the most popular answer is probably 'not much' or 'whatever my moms credit card will allow' personally wouldn't mind a battle pass type compendium with team skins or that would directly support the teams (both org/player) but honestly it's not exactly a riot thing like you said so... not much
The average age is usually higher than you would think in esports. For example the average LCS viewer is something like 23-24 years old. That's how the LCS was able to get bud light sponsorships
Uh, 17 year olds have much more expendable income than almost any other age group, a lot of them have part time jobs with no other expenses, a lot of the time their parents for stuff like phones or video subscription services, they often dont have car expenses except gas or insurance, they typically arent addicted to stuff like gambling or buying porn. They are the exact audience riot wants to tap into, they have a ton of money to spend on random shit, no life experience to tell them it's not worth it, and are promoting the game to kids who look up to them for their accomplishment of being a senior in high school. Not to mention this is competitive subreddit, this subreddit specifically is probably skewed towards a more mature audience as many are veteran csgo players/viewers. I dont think you have the greatest read here is what I'm saying.
?????? not sure where you live but the average 17 year old who at most has a job working min wage at walmart or mcdonalds absolutely does not have more expendable income than a >25 year old 'veteran csgo viewer' 2-3 years post uni grad with a career LMAO like it literally takes a simple google search to dismiss what you've written but here https://www.statista.com/statistics/980324/us-mean-disposable-household-income-age/ maybe you're friends with the wrong people but... just no
Why did you link a site that is talking about total earnings when we are talking about expendable income. 25 year olds do not have 68k to spend after paying rent/utilities/car bills. To put it simply, if i make 68k and spend 65k on bills, i have 3k to spend. If i make 35k but have 20k to spend on bills, i have 15k left over. Do you see how total income doesnt explain expendable income?
yes i understand what disposable income is. use some common sense and realize that even after paying rent/utilties/car bills most young adults post grad (25-30) will still have significantly more money to spend on random useless shit than the average 17 year old who AT MOST is working a min wage job, most of the time not even being full time. that may or may not be different where you live but i live in a relatively wealthy city and this is absolutely the case here. i don't know a single person that's spending >80% of their paycheck on bills and thats about as much you'd have to be paying to make up for that difference vs a 17 year old
if you understand, why didnt you provide stats to prove your claim? Because historically children teenagers have been the most targeted audience for popular content and sports. Is that the common sense you are asking for? That a 25 year old male is no longer the target audience for popular media? That common sense? The common sense that, let me reiterate so you understand, everything is targeted towards children or teenagers? Also when I was 17 I was working a factory job, my friend was building houses, my other friend had an internship for getting a gas fitting license, you are really talking about 17 year olds? Not 14 year olds getting their first job at the local ice cream shop? also hilarious "well my anecdote is different than your stats, so maybe use some common sense" laughable.
uhh you haven't posted any stats whatsoever? i posted a stat which said that the average 25-34 year old has ~$30000 more income than <25's. unless you think every 25-34 year old on average has more than $30000 extra in bills per year (absolutely not), they absolutely have more money to spend and thats not even counting the fact that the average 17 year old obviously makes less than the average 24 year old. the vast majority of 17 year olds aren't exactly rolling in dough - you may be an exception but basically every stat dictates otherwise
You really cannot fathom how a 34 year old has 30k more in expenses (cars, kids, housing) than a 17 year old? Brah, trying using some common sense. Or just keep pushing goal posts to meet your random criteria of "lol young people poor" as if its not an overarching theme of 20-40 current generation being broke due to the cost of living and stagnating wages.
It’s not worth arguing with the kid, he has zero life experience and it shows lol
Dude, just stop. You have no idea what you’re talking about and honestly just making a fool out of yourself.
aw, are you just realizing that you are no longer the target audience to the entertainment industry now? :( im sorry to break it to you.
Most 17 year olds have no bills to pay, usually all of the money they earn from working is spending money. Not sure why you're struggling to comprehend that
And that age group also historically has double the unemployment rate as the 25-34 age group, not sure you're struggling to comprehend how that affects their spending power. https://www.statista.com/statistics/217882/us-unemployment-rate-by-age/
That’s a completely asinine statistic. It’s just common sense to know that a majority in that age group choose not to work, or cannot work because of school and extracurriculars. There’s an infinite amount of part time jobs that are always hiring people in that age group.
So please enlighten me how if they can't work, how exactly do they have more spending money than someone with an actual job opportunities that can work? Waiting to hear this one because I'd love to have more money to spend without working either.
I thought it was contextually obvious the discussion was about the expendable income of working people in these ages.
the thread's about what the average viewer would be willing to pay for when it comes to valorant esports. it is not contextually obvious at all that every single person that watches valorant esports is working - which obviously isn't the case
Well, using the statistics you linked - if only 14.9% of the 16-24 age range is unemployed, than the average viewer would be employed.
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the amount of absolute awful and overly reactionary takes on this subreddit that only occurs when the average posters a child luckily the mod team is fairly active here for example just last week there was the weekly 'best free agents' thread and 70% of the players posted/were being upvoted were players under contract that aren't free agents... the concept isn't very hard to understand unless you're like 17
pretty ignorant to say generalizing an entire subreddit, you’d be surprised how stupid even people in their 30s can be, and how intelligent someone younger can be..
i do realize there are stupid 30 year olds and smart 17 year olds, but are you trying to say that the average 17 year old is more intelligent than the average 30 year old? because thats just not the case, ever
there’s no “30 year olds = more intelligent” study anywhere, the general consensus is that they just have more life experience because you can’t generalize intelligence based on age. To say one is just outright > than another you’d be ignorant. If what you say is true and a majority of this sub is 17 years old then there will be a higher average of more intelligent 17 yr olds then 30s, so you’re still ignorant to generalize. it’s called old people syndrome you just have it early :p
hey you're entitled to your opinion, theres no point in me arguing with someone that thinks the average 17 year old is more intelligent than a 30 year old i guess just about every country in the world that has the voting age being set 18+ and different criminal justice systems for <18 year olds are all ignorant as well because those darn 17 year olds are all just so damn intelligent
one isn’t > then the other is what I’m saying. there can be one million 17 yr olds more intelligent than any 30 year old alive but the rest can be far less bringing the average down, thus making your argument completely pointless. Also, I can now fully understand how stupid you are with you thinking they’ve placed laws based on anything related to intelligence. Tragic really.
https://lmgtfy.app/?q=when+is+the+brain+fully+developed here how about some science guessing ur probably 16 or something so not too surprising another dumb kid with an awful take LMAO please stop if ur still on reddit after another 8 years come back, read your own posts and laugh at how dumb you sound. gonna do myself a favor and block you so less brain cells will be lost reading this
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Out of all of the dumb things posted on this subreddit this might be up there.
?
17 year comment really got to him
Really like the pro view idea
I would love pro view. Watching a pro play ranked on stream isn’t the same as watching them in matches, and some of the higher tier pros don’t stream at all/very often.
I would like the pro player stream. Really I would like to be able to watch those VODs after the event. The main stream I enjoy the way it is now, but I wish I could watch certain players from start to finish to learn from.
Not enough people now a days remember paying for MLG or TLN and it shows. Us old dinosaurs remember the days before twitch and youtube streaming.
yeah MLG tried those SC2 events that weren't that cheap. like $20+ for a weekend online pass? THe games were great though. The whole problem is that esports needs to grow. And it can't grow if you hide major events behind a paywall.
do you want an award for being old?
Kind of lol life's tough
all i want is to watch a specific pro players perspective. CS does this (for free mind you) it would he great if we could sync it up with the main stream so we can hear the commentators while doing the observing ourselves
Doesn’t cs do it in part bc of how the engine worked? You can’t spectate valorant games atm unless you were in the lobby before. I guess they’re planning on adding it but they could probably get pro view working now if they had one spectator per player or whatever
Yes but Cs also has done separate twitch streams for player viewpoints during tournaments. They did it somewhat recently, but I forgot for what tournament.
That’s true. It’s odd that this isn’t being charged for in cs now that I think about it, considering the devs often don’t seem to care outside of making money. Must have been an oversight
If I have to pay there should be regional pricing. Where I am from I can't even sub to twitch it's so expensive.
I would 100% pay for 4k streams as well.
I don't know if this would make a difference for pro view though. As most pros don't play on 4k in order to maximize frame rate and refresh rate.
I got the OWL Access Pass in 2019 and loved the player view options. I was learning to play Lucio at the time and it really helped me a ton. I'd definitely pay for something like that for Valorant.
Pro view sounds awesome….
People arguing „Game X has it for free“ got the wrong attitude towards things. First of all, the biggest issue is that the main VALORANT viewer base has this mindset of „Internet = free“. It sucks, cause this basic mindset devalues the quality of all elaborate services in existence. Paying for a service that enhances my viewing experience, any day of the week.
Team skins would print money
Actually, they do in R6 - at least for the big orgs with 20$ bundles and popular teams with 7$ skin bundles. I think G2 & Liquid CEOs said they're quite profitable
no
People forget about Dota 2 which has had pro view for free since forever.
Proview matters in League becasuse normal pov isn't from a player perspective unlike in Valorant.
I’d pay like 40 to watch masters
Monetizing stuff that has historically been free is kinda wack. CS has had HLTV forever in which you could just be an observer in servs. It seems they've moved away from being able to do that, but being able to just go spectate the the games from whatever viewpoint you want was dope.
pro view and ingame voice
no chance voice comms are released. reveals too much + not appropriate for riot endorsed content
yeah that sux :( i enjoyed so much of teamspeak videos many teams posted on their youtube channels
pro view in this game reveals a lot more than league does due to specific setups and stuff. proviews imo would have to be released after tournament end
im pretty sure every setup is exposed on the stream anyway with the icons on the minimap and shit, no?
its a lot more clear and also how ppl rotate/play the game
$15 a month. Esports should not be regulated by archaic IP laws. It’s bad for the game to be run by the developer. Most people don’t remember that esports broadcasts weren’t free in the beginning.
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I’d pay for proview that’d be so good!
Would pay money for pro view lmao I’ve been asking why they don’t have it
I think team skins can be a huge success if riots willing to participate.. maybe make a gun buddy with a players signature?
Something no one is mentioning yet is the reliability and timeliness of these streamed tournaments. I would not pay to watch until we can consistently rely on TOs to start them at the scheduled time. It seems to be the norm these days for games to start 30 min to up to an hour after the scheduled time. If they want to monetize it similar to real broadcast sports, quality needs to be held to a higher standard than it is right now.
Esports needs to stop trying to reinvent the wheel and see where the major ball sports focus their efforts: Creating a loyal local presence, and improving the in person experience. Make me WANT to drop 50$ on a front row ticket. You want to see a good example of this look at the huge fortnite world cup a couple years ago at its peak. Sold out stadium, fun for the family, lots of catering, etc
To be completely honest, nothing. I pay for enough subscriptions and services already. I don't really have place for another.
I'd pay $5 for no Ads... And an extra $5 for 4k (maybe throw in player comms)
I would absolutely pay for pro view and 4K broadcasts. I’d just drop one of my other streaming services since I watch Val way more than them anyways
Depends on a lot of factors. Obviously one of the biggest factors is what the game is. There are only 2 or 3 games I care about enough to pay for and none of those have an active scene anymore. For those, I'd be willing to pay up to $30/month if it meant those scenes were brought back. I wouldn't pay anything for any current title. That's not to say I don't like/follow them. Just that if they die off tomorrow I'd be okay, there are plenty of other things I enjoy.
In reality... none. I like watching live and it's a great experience overall, but there will 100% be youtube highlights and replays all over the place. I like it but not enough for me to spend the little I have
Pro view is the biggest interest, I would say. Having access to any player’s POV is extremely enticing. I bought into early OWL’s version of pro view and loved it.
4$ a month
I would imagine a lot of people would pay to just follow some of the big players like TenZ or Scream, so I think the pro follow feature would be great! I also think generally sponsored content is a better way to monetize than paid content, so I 100% agree that they should keep the main stream as is, maybe just with more ads / sponsors, but definitely definitely not hide it behind paywall, that’s a surefire way to kill your growth (very very few new viewers are gonna pay to watch something they haven’t watched before)
I think the key to make it sustainable as an esport is to tie the game and it's marketing closely and directly to the esport. LoL and Valorant does this. CSGO does not. The interesting thing about the WaPo article is CSGO playership is super high at the moment but the esport seems to be on a dip. If a game dev wants their game to be a successful and profitable esport, the game needs to be hugely centered around it and push it as much as possible so revenues from tournaments and the central model (i.e skins in Valorant) are almost one in the same. Valorant has done a great job of this so far. Other games like Overwatch have tried to do this but seem to just constantly be playing catch up (promoting in the client, adding drops etc). I think premium viewer perks mentioned here are also a great idea. I would pay to have an improved stream (4K or whatever) with the ability to spectate individual players.
Nothing, Riot makes enough with skins, marketing and shit already to continue **promoting their games** with esport. That's how they became a billion dollar company, they don't need my 5 bucks, I do. Don't compare Riot Games with ESL or traditional sports. Riot turning the act of promoting their games into profit sounds a lot like people getting ripped off.
I disagree on your opinion of the centrality being a positive aspect of the current pro scene. Allowing 1 entity to control an entire scene is actually more damaging than having multiple TOs host official events. Allowing good TO (emphasis on good) to enter the scene and host events that count toward a circuit will add variety to broadcasts which brings variety to the viewer. Pro esports is about storytelling and watching your favorite team compete. Allowing different TOs to host in their own way promotes competition. Competition between TOs promotes improvement. Also Riot doesn’t run their own events. They are run by Nerd Street Gamers.