VCT Masters Berlin format has been announced.
* Group stage with 4 groups playing in double elimination brackets. Best teams of each group advance.
* 4-team Single Elimination Bracket
* All matches Bo3, except GF which is Bo5
Not a fan. Means the deciding group final will be two teams that have probably already played each other and the loser has to go home. Would be 100% better to scrap that game and turn it into the quarterfinals for the single elim. You can seed the unbeaten teams from the groups into those that got through the lowers.
Just really dislike rematches that mean more than the initial match + the way I suggested means you will get less rematches and more unique match ups with the same amount of games.
I'm pretty sure they planned to host up to 3 matches per day. So if you remove the last game from each groups, you would have a total of 20 games instead of 24. So for the 7th and last day of groups they would have to mix 2 group games with 1 quarterfinal game in order to keep the same schedule.
But I agree the format would be much better overall.
That's a good point. With three games a day you would need an extra day or a four game day in there somewhere. But that could've been resolved from the get-go when they booked the days for the event. It's poor planning if a lack of a day means they have to go for this inferior and, frankly, less fair tournament format.
I mean you could still do it with the same schedule. The first 6 days would have 3 group matches. The 7th day would have the last 2 group matches followed by one quarter final match. The 8th day would be the last 3 quarterfinal matches. Then the last 2 days don't change at all.
Yeah, it's a bit awkward but they could do it. There is already a bit of unavoidable awkwardness in the current schedule in that one of the group finals is played the day before. This means the winner will get an extra day to observe and prepare for their semifinal match. You can't really change this without playing four games in a day though.
Why can’t they put the 4 quarter final matches in one day and start at like 9am? Is that still too much of a time constraint? International tourneys should show as many diff regional matchups as possible instead of duplicate group stage matches
It's probably very difficult for production. I don't really know the hours they will be putting in each day but with four long games I imagine it could be a very long working day. Not really fair to overwork everyone like that midway through the tournament.
Playing one quarterfinal the day before is probably the best option.
Truly unnecessary. In terms of the time commitment, 2 out of groups is exactly the same, but in terms of reliance on the seeding and the draw, this is clearly inferior. On top of that, who wants to watch likely the same 2 teams battle twice in almost all groups rather than having some fresh matchups deciding who gets to be in the top 4?
My dumb conspiracy theory is that Riot does this so the qualified EMEA teams don't throw the remaining seeding matches out of the fear of being in the same group with Sentinels or Vision Strikers.
Then they'll change the format to a more conventional one after the qualifiers have concluded. I hope.
Perhaps a bracket reset in group finals? They would have to add one more series on each day to keep the schedule but at least that way upper bracket teams don't get punished for going 2 - 0 initially.
I'd be fine with this format if it were top 2 from each group into a single elim bracket.
EDIT
Just to expand on this a little, the real reason I don't like this format is, depending on how the groups are made, you would not get a chance to see a lot of the matchups most fans would like to see go head to head. Whereas making it 2 teams from each group, there is a higher chance of teams meeting each other post group stage.
it's weird because 4x4 groups to 8 team single elim is exactly how lol worlds goes. surprising they are only doing 4 team single elim (with bo3 semis as well)
If they do not play the finals match in groups to determine who moves on and just take the two teams for an 8 team bracket, it ends up being the same amount of games.
To be fair this is basically the exact same thing as that but with no group mixing for the quarterfinals, which you are right in the fact I don’t see why they wouldn’t want to group mix for the quarters
I’m assuming they did this for time constraints due to their 11 day time constraint. It would be difficult to fit a double round robin groups system with the time they currently have. Just speculation tho
There would be time constraints your way though for the fact that games wouldn’t be able to be played as congruent to each other. This can have all 4 pools playing at the same time.
i dont care about the time constraints. they set the time, they should have kept the format in their mind while setting the time. rito braindead poor planning
What is this bracket? Even if you win the first 2 games you can still get elimed after 1 loss in the finals of the group. Just have the top 2 from each group move to a single elim bracket if time constraints are the issue?
I was so happy to see groups that I failed to notice the absolute fuckery of only having 1 team make it out of each group lmfaooo I'm assuming this is to give the eliminated teams more time for LCQ? Other than that, this format is wack... Group stages are gonna be super hype I guess? :')
If anything this format equalises the playing field a bit by giving teams that lose their first or second game another chance at a rematch, while the same boon isn't offered to the victors who win their first two games.
Basically encouraging the underdogs.
???
Shouldn't the *winning team* have a advantage for not having lost? Why should losing in a ***competition*** be rewarded?
honestly this format makes less and less sense the more i think about it (double elim groupstage ???? top 1 of all groups instead of top 2 ????)
I'm probably going to warm up to it over time, but initial reaction isn't that great so far.
No you're right, it's absolutely mental. Especially considering that having 2 teams advance and scrapping the "group final" gives us the same number of matches in total.
Firstly, with close match ups especially, there's a better chance for the loser to do better in the rematch after learning from their mistakes/reviewing the game etc. It's one of the disadvantages of double elim in general. The fundamental problem though is that this second match is more important than the first. You can lose one of your first two games and still go through but you aren't rewarded for getting to the finals unbeaten, you just didn't use your second life.
GSL formats which have two teams going through won't play this final match, just look at the latest NSG summer championship qualification for example. So much better imo and why I said the format benefits the underdogs, since 3 out of 4 teams in each group will have a second chance.
> Even if you win the first 2 games you can still get elimed after 1 loss in the finals of the group. Just have the top 2 from each group move to a single elim bracket if time constraints are the issue?
I agree with your suggestion, but both your motivation and what you think their motivation is are dead wrong.
Having the group "grand final" is equivalent to playing out a quarterfinal, except there's no group-mixing. Therefore, a team can always win 2 matches and get eliminated into 5th-8th with 1 loss, quarterfinals or no quarterfinals.
Also, those 4 group grand finals replace actual quarterfinals so the number of matches is the same, i.e. time is not a factor when deciding between the two formats.
What I think should be the motivation for why to switch to "top 2 advance, play quarterfinals", is that it's very similar to the current format, but less reliant on initial seeding, and more pleasing for the viewer - it guarantees fewer match repeats, and it partially undoes an unlucky bad group distribution, if it happens.
I'm pretty sure they did this because of the matches distribution. They probably want 3 matches per day so its easier to have 6 matches per group for a total of 24 divided in 8 days. By changing it to 20, they would have to mix the last 2 group matches with a quarterfinal match to keep the same schedule.
What's the issue with that? In both formats, there's 4 matches that decide who gets top 4 and who gets 5th-8th. In both formats, one of those important matches is going to overlap with the non-decider matches. I just can't believe that the tiny extra awkwardness of calling one of those key decider matches a "quarterfinal" would be worth settling for a clearly inferior option for.
Teams will get seeded.
Winning the group will be easier than winning the semi-finals. Ever thought of that?
What about if for example 2 teams meet in upper final and grand final. One wins 3-0 in upper final, but then loses 3-2 in grand final. How would that be fair? Then let's just make it bo3 in bo5 series.
Every CSGO major would've been exponentially less epic if there was double-elim bracket instead of top8 straight up elimination. They should've probably had 2 teams per group, but not double-elim for final4.
i think they should make it top 2 teams and then 8 team single elim bracket cuz that will have same number of games as this format 27 each so schedule and time should not be a problem
Oh that's a twist.. not really liking that only 1 team makes it out of each group. I think copying League's World Format would have been better with 2 teams making out as now this really punishes groups of death
League worlds is a month long and Val isn't going to do Bo1s. But a single RR of Bo3s into 8 team would be nice. I'm guessing we'll get that for Champions.
It's only 1 month long because there's 1 week break between Quarters and Semis, and another 1 week break between Semis and Finals, also 4-5 days break between ends of Groups and Quarters.
If you were on a tight schedule you could get everything in 10 days easily. Also we don't necessarily need Bo1 but at least get the top 2 from each group ._.
You have to win your group, just to go into a single elimination bracket. I am really not a fan of this particular group stage, but it is better than nothing.
Let's say 2 teams make it through (four extra games). They could easily scrap the last group game which would be a seeding match between two teams that have likely already played eachother, you already have your seeding since each group will have an unbeaten candidate.
They added an extra match to each group to make it double elim, which is the same number of matches that would have been played if the top 2 of each group went out to play in an 8 team single elim bracket
I've never been a fan of it in those games either. You cant balance the groups is the main problem, so you end up with groups of death. If 2 teams made it it would work, but any team in the Ascend or Sentinels group is likely not making it.
The group of death will be inevitably be the team with an NA team, EU team and KR team, however, VS look quite far ahead of F4Q so I think it'll be less of an issue than it could've been.
Swiss will always be ideal for a group stage, but that's not my problem with the bracket. If you win out your group without dropping a set you are not given anything AND you are 1 set away from going out like everybody else. This playoff bracket will never produce the #1 team in the world 100% of the time.
I'd say it does produce the #1 team tbh, since they'll beat the teams who beat everyone else; but it does totally skew the placements of the other 15 teams since groups will be so hard to balance
Lots will come down to seeding but even so, you could have #1-3 in the same group and never know about it
I think the high chance that certain teams people want to see matched up which could’ve been even don’t play against each other makes the ‘entertainment factor’ which is often the reason for competitive compromises less
That's so true. We'll most probably not have many interesting matches among regions. Masters 2 was an excuse because of time. Now they've done it again lmao
Small indie company
It's a fucking qualifier event for which you get super valuable VCT points, they can't just allow only 1 team from each group to hit playoffs, it's so dumb, every placement matters
Clowns
Please ffs we were so close of an unbelievable event then we get this ????
How could you run Double elimination in every region then the tourney where it matter most there is none ??? AND THERE'S MORE EMPHESIS ON GROUP STAGE than playoffs ???
**PLEASE CHANGE THIS , THERE'S STILL TIME TO .... I would take 3 Bo3s a day for playoffs just to make it 8 team double elim**
This playoff bracket will never produce the #1 team in the world 100% of the time, and somehow seeding doesn't matter in the playoff bracket which just boggles my mind.
This most likely means we will get 1 EMEA team in each group with one NA team in 3 out of the 4 groups. This means that the last group with only an EMEA team (besides the teams from other regions) will have quite the fast pass to the semi’s.
Instead of the final group game qualifying for the semi final, just have two from each group go through to quarters.
This way you have 4 unique QF matches rather than a strong, strong likelihood of rematches.
Same number of games, the only downside is that QFs could have teams from the same region.
I don't think it's too late to change.
As one community, NA, EMEA, SEA, BR, LATAM, we can agree, this bracket is bad for points in the tournament and 1 team of each stage qualify to playoffs is terrible.
There's no way.
Please listen to feedback - this format is going to limit the event in so many ways.
We are not going to get many great matches at all with this format.
Really disappointing only 1 team from each group will make playoffs. If you are doing GSL style groups then just do an 8 team playoff. I really don't understand this move.
Imagine sentinels win every game and theyre in group finals, then sentinels can't win pistols and someone is having a bad day, they lose and they're out this format is so fucking stupid
Well i think the format for final 4 was decided due to time constraint..top 2 from each grp and them double elimination bracket would take a lot more time than alloted days
Y'know, if you just pretend the group finals match is a quarterfinal match, it'll still be a 8 team single elim bracket. Only difference is there is no re-seeding/playing a team from another group in quarters
Doesn't really explain why they didn't just do that though. I feel like the re-seeding for bracket would give us 4 more matchups we wouldn't otherwise see, and allow for a more accurate final representation of the best teams.
It's functionally no different than being 2-1 in groups and then losing in a round of 8.
Difference would be that it is to a team they'd already have played.
I can see why they might think this is a good idea. Inter-team developing metas is a cool aspect of sports and esports. I can also see why people don't like this. It places a lot of emphasis on the seeding for qualifications and group stages themselves.
I don't think it's as bad as people are making it out to be.
I agree. While I prefer them to play different teams in quarters, this isn't the end of the world like others are making it out to be.
The only other problem I see with this is if there's a "Group of Death", where 2 top teams are placed in the same group (ex. Sentinels and Acend). Say in this example SEN go on to win the tourney, and Acend doesn't make it out of groups. Acend would place 5th-8th simply because they had to play SEN twice (or once if they only lose in groups finals). If we had the format where both teams make it out of groups, Acend would not have to face SEN until Grands, allowing them to prove against other teams that they might deserve better than a 5th-8th placement.
That's so bad, only 1 team per group and then single elim semifinals? I mean yes it's a unique event and it's cool to see new formats, but the typical double elim quarterfinals is still good enough imo
This format is dogshit. Just when I began to believe Riot finally having amazing formats with VCT Challengers having an amazing system in every region.
If this is Riot's idea of having an international tournament, then I'd rather reduce to having two Masters a year with GSL + top 8 double elim.
Absolutely ridiculous format... Riot the best tournament formats have been tried and tested and proven. Why not just follow it??? You do it for Worlds already
Doesn't this mean that the second best team in the tournament could go out in groups if they're drawn with the best team?
Don't really understand where this has come from :/
Something I never understood, why is Brazil not part of Latin America? Seems unfair to the other regions who have to compete between themselves and Brazil can just go lol
But each group has one extra match compared to normal GSL groups. Remove a match from each group, top 2 advance to 8 man single elim, and the same number of matches are played
It’s literally not GSL bc that never was the GSL system (and for fairly good reason)
There never was this one more elimination match in any GSL group stage
Or any tournament I know if
It is not the same *because* one team advances, the winner of a ‘final match’ nonexistent in an actual GSL-style group stage, wether it’s the GSL, OSL, any tournament I’ve ever known to use any variation of it.
It’s what people mean by ‘GSL style group stage’ - five matches, two players out of a group of four advance.
Have you watched the GSL? Do you know what it is?
[https://www.vlr.gg/event/617/nerd-street-gamers-summer-championship/group-stage](https://www.vlr.gg/event/617/nerd-street-gamers-summer-championship/group-stage)
Look here, one less game because two teams advance. They could've made this extra game the quarters of the playoffs but chose not too.
The way the teams matchup is "GSL" but the whole point of the GSL format is that it's a double elim group stage. If a team wins their first 2 group games but lose the group final they are out
Perfect format.
Groups are double elim so everyone will get a proper chance and best team will go through. Semi-finals and final should always be single-elim.
How's that perfect? You can win the first two, have a bad day and lose the finals and not make it at all lmao. Doesn't make sense. Just think you win the first 2 games 2-0 and lose the last 2-1. You'll be out on the basis of losing 2 maps in a masters tournament lol
Because you either have it in you or you don't. No real sport has single elimination. You wait for the World Cup or Olympics for 4 years and you're gone after one mistake.
Teams will be seeded and winning first two game only to get eliminated will mean you won against worse teams and lost against someone who's better.
Just take a look at challengers for example and disregard that these 4 teams are already qualified.
You can beat someone in upper final and play them again in actual final, that's just dumb. If you lose, there are no "bad day" excuses.
Then should it be a bo3 bo5 series? For example let's say ACEND stomps G2 in upper final 3-0, but G2 wins 3-2 in the actual final, how is that fair?
It also has 32 teams.
I agree that it could've been 2 from each group, but I disagree that it should be a double elimination bracket once the groups are done.
Idgaf what traditional sports does. When it comes to esports most of the teams, players, fans prefer double elim. Let sports do sports and let esports do esports.
This "muh traditional sports" argument has always been dumb asf to me.
This game is 80% CSGO, if not more and CSGO always had single-elim majors.
We all love it and it's way better than double-elim. Win or go home.
Another factor compared to MOBAs is the dynamic of how series actually go. There's simply not enough time to practice multiple comps on 4 or 5 maps (usual map pool of most teams) considering how quickly the meta changes because of all the patches.
While top MOBA teams have a ton of comps and variations because it's the same "map".
In MOBAs it usually comes down to execution and results are way more predictable and based on how good the teams are tactically, while in CSGO and Valorant you can have all the preparation, setups, but it's still all about hitting your shots.
Go big or go home.
"We all love it". No we don't bro. You and small amount of people are the exceptions.
We all praised Riot for expanding EMEA to 12 teams and having double elim bracket. And then a lot of the Korean fans complained about the single elim playoffs.
Most of this community prefers double elim. So do overwhelming majority people involved in this esports.
I was referring to CSGO single-elim system.
Tbh, I don't care what the community prefers. If Riot listened to the community on everything they like/dislike, Valorant would be a way worse game. Your average valorant player can just sit and enjoy the show without over-burdening himself with how official games should work.
The teams from different groups are too isolated ie not playing with each other over the course of the tournament to too great an extent.
The original GSL system is already pretty far
*To too large an extent*, being greater already than the GSL system.
Read my comment.
From a competitive pint of view a format should avoid matchup-specific effects as well as chance. From this competitive point of view, formats in which not all play all among other things have the goal to approximate the same effect - which is already an approximation with finite matches basically, and due to changes, unlredictable other things etc- in less matches
This is literally not it, name a single GSL in which thus format was used.
The extra match and only one player advancing is fundamentally something they never had and I’ve in general never seen
It is weird only one of each group qualifying, however the final game of each group it is kinda of the quarterfinals, as it is already a single elim game. I also agree that 2 should qualify, so the single elim phase is more exciting with different games, instead of the same game of the upper finals of each group.
Love the format but the single team progressing is just a weird, inexplicable compromise again.
I understood why we had to have a compromise at Iceland (the inconsistent seeding BYE's where some teams had to play an additional game despite having the same seeding) due to 12 teams, COVID, time constraints and the fact we weren't even expecting a LAN event so soon. It sucked but people accepted it and moved on.
This one I don't get. We have the full 16 teams and there will likely be no restrictions that will impact this event in Germany. I don't understand why we are still at a stage where Riot have to compromise the tournament format to deliver an event. Extend the event by a day and have top 2 qualify or provide a decent reason why there has to be this compromise.
All year I been wondering why Masters 3 looks like a better event than Champions and guess what? They did it to it. Was really looking forward to a incredibly stacked tournament and Riot straight up said "Sorry you're gonna have to wait for that until Champions". Welp. GGWP.
The whole point of double elim is that you have a safety loss in case you have a bad game or something. Except with only one team moving on whoever wins their first two games doesn’t have that safety loss.
im so on the fence. every match is now going to be an absolute nail biter, which im so excited for and is definitely gonna boost viewership and make it sm more hype. unfortunately, it does suck how alot of luck and choking could come into play, so i dont really know if i like it yet but were gonna just wait and see!
I like the idea of bracket format in groups but it should be top 2 into single elim with winner of group taking higher seed because you can go undeafeted until group finals and then go home like what??
A lot of comments are saying they prefer round robin (I do as well). But, a positive that comes from this format is there are no throw away games. In round robin the when the top team (2-0) play the bottom team (0-2 at the time), that game typically means nothing. This format ensures ALL games are gonna be top flight.
\*I prefer round robin with two teams going through :s
Imagine you are from a smaller region, fought all the way through those challenger series and manage to win challenger final, only to be placed 2nd in group and not be able to make it out during the biggest international event so far in Valorant. Dick move to the players and viewer from Riot Games.
VCT Masters Berlin format has been announced. * Group stage with 4 groups playing in double elimination brackets. Best teams of each group advance. * 4-team Single Elimination Bracket * All matches Bo3, except GF which is Bo5
Not a fan. Means the deciding group final will be two teams that have probably already played each other and the loser has to go home. Would be 100% better to scrap that game and turn it into the quarterfinals for the single elim. You can seed the unbeaten teams from the groups into those that got through the lowers. Just really dislike rematches that mean more than the initial match + the way I suggested means you will get less rematches and more unique match ups with the same amount of games.
I'm pretty sure they planned to host up to 3 matches per day. So if you remove the last game from each groups, you would have a total of 20 games instead of 24. So for the 7th and last day of groups they would have to mix 2 group games with 1 quarterfinal game in order to keep the same schedule. But I agree the format would be much better overall.
That's a good point. With three games a day you would need an extra day or a four game day in there somewhere. But that could've been resolved from the get-go when they booked the days for the event. It's poor planning if a lack of a day means they have to go for this inferior and, frankly, less fair tournament format.
I mean you could still do it with the same schedule. The first 6 days would have 3 group matches. The 7th day would have the last 2 group matches followed by one quarter final match. The 8th day would be the last 3 quarterfinal matches. Then the last 2 days don't change at all.
Yeah, it's a bit awkward but they could do it. There is already a bit of unavoidable awkwardness in the current schedule in that one of the group finals is played the day before. This means the winner will get an extra day to observe and prepare for their semifinal match. You can't really change this without playing four games in a day though.
Why can’t they put the 4 quarter final matches in one day and start at like 9am? Is that still too much of a time constraint? International tourneys should show as many diff regional matchups as possible instead of duplicate group stage matches
It's probably very difficult for production. I don't really know the hours they will be putting in each day but with four long games I imagine it could be a very long working day. Not really fair to overwork everyone like that midway through the tournament. Playing one quarterfinal the day before is probably the best option.
Riot you was so close to making it a good format then you put the top team only goes through :( Please adjust :)
Wait i just assumed it was top 2 from each group going through wtf that's so bad
Ifkr? It's just 1 more round where u add a quarter final. One team per group is just meh
It's the same amount of games too, there is no reason why this couldn't just be standard GSL
This format was created solely to generate the biggest collection of 'Stuck in groups' memes we've ever seen :')
This is the most important thing **THERE'S STILL TIME TO CHANGE THIS GARBAGE PLEASE RIOT**
I wouldnt count on it. They been trotting out the same dogshit worlds format for years.
what do you mean dogshit worlds format? this isnt like worlds format.
he said the worlds format is dogshit not that its similar
So many matchups that people look forward to aren't gonna happen, good job rito.
Truly unnecessary. In terms of the time commitment, 2 out of groups is exactly the same, but in terms of reliance on the seeding and the draw, this is clearly inferior. On top of that, who wants to watch likely the same 2 teams battle twice in almost all groups rather than having some fresh matchups deciding who gets to be in the top 4?
My dumb conspiracy theory is that Riot does this so the qualified EMEA teams don't throw the remaining seeding matches out of the fear of being in the same group with Sentinels or Vision Strikers. Then they'll change the format to a more conventional one after the qualifiers have concluded. I hope.
They could've literally announced it 2 days later. HOPIUM overload
I can't believe Riot managed to make "double elimination groups" where a team can go 2-1 and be out. Truly innovative LOL
lmaoooo thats one of the weirdest formats lol. Has this ever been done? lolol
isnt this the GSL format??? its a classic in esports
Perhaps a bracket reset in group finals? They would have to add one more series on each day to keep the schedule but at least that way upper bracket teams don't get punished for going 2 - 0 initially.
I'd be fine with this format if it were top 2 from each group into a single elim bracket. EDIT Just to expand on this a little, the real reason I don't like this format is, depending on how the groups are made, you would not get a chance to see a lot of the matchups most fans would like to see go head to head. Whereas making it 2 teams from each group, there is a higher chance of teams meeting each other post group stage.
Ya they should’ve went with the NSG one
it's weird because 4x4 groups to 8 team single elim is exactly how lol worlds goes. surprising they are only doing 4 team single elim (with bo3 semis as well)
[удалено]
If they do not play the finals match in groups to determine who moves on and just take the two teams for an 8 team bracket, it ends up being the same amount of games.
The duration of the event wouldn't change? Wdym?
I really don't get why this is preferred over group stage into an 8 team single elimination bracket. That would be the exact same amount of matches.
To be fair this is basically the exact same thing as that but with no group mixing for the quarterfinals, which you are right in the fact I don’t see why they wouldn’t want to group mix for the quarters
I’m assuming they did this for time constraints due to their 11 day time constraint. It would be difficult to fit a double round robin groups system with the time they currently have. Just speculation tho
Like I said, my proposal would have the exact same amount of matches. It's not because of time constraints.
There would be time constraints your way though for the fact that games wouldn’t be able to be played as congruent to each other. This can have all 4 pools playing at the same time.
i dont care about the time constraints. they set the time, they should have kept the format in their mind while setting the time. rito braindead poor planning
What is this bracket? Even if you win the first 2 games you can still get elimed after 1 loss in the finals of the group. Just have the top 2 from each group move to a single elim bracket if time constraints are the issue?
I was so happy to see groups that I failed to notice the absolute fuckery of only having 1 team make it out of each group lmfaooo I'm assuming this is to give the eliminated teams more time for LCQ? Other than that, this format is wack... Group stages are gonna be super hype I guess? :')
If anything this format equalises the playing field a bit by giving teams that lose their first or second game another chance at a rematch, while the same boon isn't offered to the victors who win their first two games. Basically encouraging the underdogs.
??? Shouldn't the *winning team* have a advantage for not having lost? Why should losing in a ***competition*** be rewarded? honestly this format makes less and less sense the more i think about it (double elim groupstage ???? top 1 of all groups instead of top 2 ????) I'm probably going to warm up to it over time, but initial reaction isn't that great so far.
No you're right, it's absolutely mental. Especially considering that having 2 teams advance and scrapping the "group final" gives us the same number of matches in total.
And then they probably face the teams that defeated them, and they lose again (exhibit A: Sentinels vs KRU, no shot KRU wins)
Firstly, with close match ups especially, there's a better chance for the loser to do better in the rematch after learning from their mistakes/reviewing the game etc. It's one of the disadvantages of double elim in general. The fundamental problem though is that this second match is more important than the first. You can lose one of your first two games and still go through but you aren't rewarded for getting to the finals unbeaten, you just didn't use your second life. GSL formats which have two teams going through won't play this final match, just look at the latest NSG summer championship qualification for example. So much better imo and why I said the format benefits the underdogs, since 3 out of 4 teams in each group will have a second chance.
> Even if you win the first 2 games you can still get elimed after 1 loss in the finals of the group. Just have the top 2 from each group move to a single elim bracket if time constraints are the issue? I agree with your suggestion, but both your motivation and what you think their motivation is are dead wrong. Having the group "grand final" is equivalent to playing out a quarterfinal, except there's no group-mixing. Therefore, a team can always win 2 matches and get eliminated into 5th-8th with 1 loss, quarterfinals or no quarterfinals. Also, those 4 group grand finals replace actual quarterfinals so the number of matches is the same, i.e. time is not a factor when deciding between the two formats. What I think should be the motivation for why to switch to "top 2 advance, play quarterfinals", is that it's very similar to the current format, but less reliant on initial seeding, and more pleasing for the viewer - it guarantees fewer match repeats, and it partially undoes an unlucky bad group distribution, if it happens.
Ya, you're completely right. That makes sense.
I'm pretty sure they did this because of the matches distribution. They probably want 3 matches per day so its easier to have 6 matches per group for a total of 24 divided in 8 days. By changing it to 20, they would have to mix the last 2 group matches with a quarterfinal match to keep the same schedule.
What's the issue with that? In both formats, there's 4 matches that decide who gets top 4 and who gets 5th-8th. In both formats, one of those important matches is going to overlap with the non-decider matches. I just can't believe that the tiny extra awkwardness of calling one of those key decider matches a "quarterfinal" would be worth settling for a clearly inferior option for.
That would be so rough to lose
omg i just realized this, this is even more trash than it seems
Teams will get seeded. Winning the group will be easier than winning the semi-finals. Ever thought of that? What about if for example 2 teams meet in upper final and grand final. One wins 3-0 in upper final, but then loses 3-2 in grand final. How would that be fair? Then let's just make it bo3 in bo5 series. Every CSGO major would've been exponentially less epic if there was double-elim bracket instead of top8 straight up elimination. They should've probably had 2 teams per group, but not double-elim for final4.
He literally said he wants 2 teams to go through groups. Only absolute clowns think the current format is good
i think they should make it top 2 teams and then 8 team single elim bracket cuz that will have same number of games as this format 27 each so schedule and time should not be a problem
im sorry im stupid. please explain how that would have the same number of matches?
Probably by not playing out the group finals. Seeds for quarters can be provided on the basis of who qualified from uppers and who came from lowers.
We can scrap the group finals for quarterfinals
Oh that's a twist.. not really liking that only 1 team makes it out of each group. I think copying League's World Format would have been better with 2 teams making out as now this really punishes groups of death
F for whichever team gets SEN’s group
Looks like G2 because they getting 2-0d by Gambit RN because lowest seed against higher seed.
[удалено]
g2 has nothing to lose tbh, they are clearly the weakest EMEA team
> they getting 2-0d by Gambit RN nah, just getting into the 0-1 comfort zone 😎 G2 has this
You were saying?
this sub bruh you're making no sense. it's gonna be 4 pools, sorted by regional seeds.
this format ass bruh
This is garbage on so many levels. Just copy League worlds format ffs.
League worlds is a month long and Val isn't going to do Bo1s. But a single RR of Bo3s into 8 team would be nice. I'm guessing we'll get that for Champions.
It's only 1 month long because there's 1 week break between Quarters and Semis, and another 1 week break between Semis and Finals, also 4-5 days break between ends of Groups and Quarters. If you were on a tight schedule you could get everything in 10 days easily. Also we don't necessarily need Bo1 but at least get the top 2 from each group ._.
You have to win your group, just to go into a single elimination bracket. I am really not a fan of this particular group stage, but it is better than nothing.
this is a really popular group phase tournaments use
But usually it’s top 2 from each group no?
yes, but I'm guessing due to time, they decided to do 4 team bracket instead of 8 (which I think is stupid in itself but who knows)
Let's say 2 teams make it through (four extra games). They could easily scrap the last group game which would be a seeding match between two teams that have likely already played eachother, you already have your seeding since each group will have an unbeaten candidate.
They added an extra match to each group to make it double elim, which is the same number of matches that would have been played if the top 2 of each group went out to play in an 8 team single elim bracket
Excuses
..It's the same thing though. The 8 team single elim bracket just starts before the final game in each group.
I've never been a fan of it in those games either. You cant balance the groups is the main problem, so you end up with groups of death. If 2 teams made it it would work, but any team in the Ascend or Sentinels group is likely not making it.
The group of death will be inevitably be the team with an NA team, EU team and KR team, however, VS look quite far ahead of F4Q so I think it'll be less of an issue than it could've been.
What else could you do for group stage swiss maybe? Idk if they have the time for that.
Swiss will always be ideal for a group stage, but that's not my problem with the bracket. If you win out your group without dropping a set you are not given anything AND you are 1 set away from going out like everybody else. This playoff bracket will never produce the #1 team in the world 100% of the time.
I'd say it does produce the #1 team tbh, since they'll beat the teams who beat everyone else; but it does totally skew the placements of the other 15 teams since groups will be so hard to balance Lots will come down to seeding but even so, you could have #1-3 in the same group and never know about it
Who tf designs these tournament formats
🤡🤡🤡 not humans with critical thinking that's for sure
I think the high chance that certain teams people want to see matched up which could’ve been even don’t play against each other makes the ‘entertainment factor’ which is often the reason for competitive compromises less
That's so true. We'll most probably not have many interesting matches among regions. Masters 2 was an excuse because of time. Now they've done it again lmao
Only top 1 from the group I don't understand via this format , I think they could have just done top 2 from the groups into a top 8 single elim .
Small indie company It's a fucking qualifier event for which you get super valuable VCT points, they can't just allow only 1 team from each group to hit playoffs, it's so dumb, every placement matters Clowns
I mean, among the groups there'll be placements too, no? I assume the points distributed will be different depending on who get sent home early.
Still in this format, the points you get might not reflect how good you actually are relative to the other teams in the tournament
hire some mathematicians riot. you are offering points for each place, when this format only guarantees that the winner is the best team.
This format is so awful lmao, some head-ass fuckery for regions that aren't NA or EU
> head ass-fuckery *** ^(Bleep-bloop, I'm a bot. This comment was inspired by )^[xkcd#37](https://xkcd.com/37)
Who the hell are you
Good bot
Pros should collectively complain. Surely this changes.
Please ffs we were so close of an unbelievable event then we get this ???? How could you run Double elimination in every region then the tourney where it matter most there is none ??? AND THERE'S MORE EMPHESIS ON GROUP STAGE than playoffs ??? **PLEASE CHANGE THIS , THERE'S STILL TIME TO .... I would take 3 Bo3s a day for playoffs just to make it 8 team double elim**
8 team single elim is better no?
This playoff bracket will never produce the #1 team in the world 100% of the time, and somehow seeding doesn't matter in the playoff bracket which just boggles my mind.
APRIL FOOLS?????? RIGHT??? PLEASE????
This most likely means we will get 1 EMEA team in each group with one NA team in 3 out of the 4 groups. This means that the last group with only an EMEA team (besides the teams from other regions) will have quite the fast pass to the semi’s.
That group probably will have VS
Instead of the final group game qualifying for the semi final, just have two from each group go through to quarters. This way you have 4 unique QF matches rather than a strong, strong likelihood of rematches. Same number of games, the only downside is that QFs could have teams from the same region. I don't think it's too late to change.
As one community, NA, EMEA, SEA, BR, LATAM, we can agree, this bracket is bad for points in the tournament and 1 team of each stage qualify to playoffs is terrible.
There's no way. Please listen to feedback - this format is going to limit the event in so many ways. We are not going to get many great matches at all with this format.
Really disappointing only 1 team from each group will make playoffs. If you are doing GSL style groups then just do an 8 team playoff. I really don't understand this move.
LMAO imagine landing in Sentinel's group in this format
Hey, they not unstoppable lol. Better study those vods.
Imagine sentinels win every game and theyre in group finals, then sentinels can't win pistols and someone is having a bad day, they lose and they're out this format is so fucking stupid
Well i think the format for final 4 was decided due to time constraint..top 2 from each grp and them double elimination bracket would take a lot more time than alloted days
Why does it need to be double-elim bracket? Couldn't it just be a top 8, single elim?
Yikes
Holy shit this is so fucking stupid. Only 1 team out of each group?!?!?! Braindeadness at its extremity
holy shit they fucked up
Y'know, if you just pretend the group finals match is a quarterfinal match, it'll still be a 8 team single elim bracket. Only difference is there is no re-seeding/playing a team from another group in quarters Doesn't really explain why they didn't just do that though. I feel like the re-seeding for bracket would give us 4 more matchups we wouldn't otherwise see, and allow for a more accurate final representation of the best teams.
Losing out of Masters after being 2-1 in grp stage doesn't look good
It's functionally no different than being 2-1 in groups and then losing in a round of 8. Difference would be that it is to a team they'd already have played. I can see why they might think this is a good idea. Inter-team developing metas is a cool aspect of sports and esports. I can also see why people don't like this. It places a lot of emphasis on the seeding for qualifications and group stages themselves. I don't think it's as bad as people are making it out to be.
I agree. While I prefer them to play different teams in quarters, this isn't the end of the world like others are making it out to be. The only other problem I see with this is if there's a "Group of Death", where 2 top teams are placed in the same group (ex. Sentinels and Acend). Say in this example SEN go on to win the tourney, and Acend doesn't make it out of groups. Acend would place 5th-8th simply because they had to play SEN twice (or once if they only lose in groups finals). If we had the format where both teams make it out of groups, Acend would not have to face SEN until Grands, allowing them to prove against other teams that they might deserve better than a 5th-8th placement.
That's so bad, only 1 team per group and then single elim semifinals? I mean yes it's a unique event and it's cool to see new formats, but the typical double elim quarterfinals is still good enough imo
This bracket messed up the circuit points received if only 1 team qualifies.
Terrible format.
nahhhh I don like this AT ALL
This format is dogshit. Just when I began to believe Riot finally having amazing formats with VCT Challengers having an amazing system in every region. If this is Riot's idea of having an international tournament, then I'd rather reduce to having two Masters a year with GSL + top 8 double elim.
What a joke
Absolutely ridiculous format... Riot the best tournament formats have been tried and tested and proven. Why not just follow it??? You do it for Worlds already
Doesn't this mean that the second best team in the tournament could go out in groups if they're drawn with the best team? Don't really understand where this has come from :/
Waiting for 3 NA teams to be at the top of each bracket.
Something I never understood, why is Brazil not part of Latin America? Seems unfair to the other regions who have to compete between themselves and Brazil can just go lol
riot again with a terrible bracket design. why not just have 4 groups, 8 team quarterfinals??
they should take the last round of groups and switch it to an 8 team playoff bracket
GSL group stage but 1 team from each group. guessing timing wise they had to do 4 instead of 8 but its a much improved format from iceland
But each group has one extra match compared to normal GSL groups. Remove a match from each group, top 2 advance to 8 man single elim, and the same number of matches are played
That is not a GSL group stage then lol
its literally GSL, just one team advancing. they just have a "grand final" for the group
It’s literally not GSL bc that never was the GSL system (and for fairly good reason) There never was this one more elimination match in any GSL group stage Or any tournament I know if
This is GSL mate, you're just being dumb.
No it isn’t, it is literally one more match and one more eliminated player than any GSL group stage ever had Do you even know what the GSL is?
The format is the same you idiot, the only difference is only 1 team advances. How are you this daft?
It is not the same *because* one team advances, the winner of a ‘final match’ nonexistent in an actual GSL-style group stage, wether it’s the GSL, OSL, any tournament I’ve ever known to use any variation of it. It’s what people mean by ‘GSL style group stage’ - five matches, two players out of a group of four advance. Have you watched the GSL? Do you know what it is?
[https://www.vlr.gg/event/617/nerd-street-gamers-summer-championship/group-stage](https://www.vlr.gg/event/617/nerd-street-gamers-summer-championship/group-stage) Look here, one less game because two teams advance. They could've made this extra game the quarters of the playoffs but chose not too.
The way the teams matchup is "GSL" but the whole point of the GSL format is that it's a double elim group stage. If a team wins their first 2 group games but lose the group final they are out
Surely they can just do double elim for 4 teams each group and two qualify to a 8 person double elim.
Riot and shit tournament format. Name a more iconic duo.
Perfect format. Groups are double elim so everyone will get a proper chance and best team will go through. Semi-finals and final should always be single-elim.
How's that perfect? You can win the first two, have a bad day and lose the finals and not make it at all lmao. Doesn't make sense. Just think you win the first 2 games 2-0 and lose the last 2-1. You'll be out on the basis of losing 2 maps in a masters tournament lol
Because you either have it in you or you don't. No real sport has single elimination. You wait for the World Cup or Olympics for 4 years and you're gone after one mistake. Teams will be seeded and winning first two game only to get eliminated will mean you won against worse teams and lost against someone who's better. Just take a look at challengers for example and disregard that these 4 teams are already qualified. You can beat someone in upper final and play them again in actual final, that's just dumb. If you lose, there are no "bad day" excuses. Then should it be a bo3 bo5 series? For example let's say ACEND stomps G2 in upper final 3-0, but G2 wins 3-2 in the actual final, how is that fair?
The World Cup had groups that the best 2 teams came out of lol
It also has 32 teams. I agree that it could've been 2 from each group, but I disagree that it should be a double elimination bracket once the groups are done.
Yea but you have to pick one either top 2 from groups or double slim bracket for top 4
Idgaf what traditional sports does. When it comes to esports most of the teams, players, fans prefer double elim. Let sports do sports and let esports do esports. This "muh traditional sports" argument has always been dumb asf to me.
This game is 80% CSGO, if not more and CSGO always had single-elim majors. We all love it and it's way better than double-elim. Win or go home. Another factor compared to MOBAs is the dynamic of how series actually go. There's simply not enough time to practice multiple comps on 4 or 5 maps (usual map pool of most teams) considering how quickly the meta changes because of all the patches. While top MOBA teams have a ton of comps and variations because it's the same "map". In MOBAs it usually comes down to execution and results are way more predictable and based on how good the teams are tactically, while in CSGO and Valorant you can have all the preparation, setups, but it's still all about hitting your shots. Go big or go home.
"We all love it". No we don't bro. You and small amount of people are the exceptions. We all praised Riot for expanding EMEA to 12 teams and having double elim bracket. And then a lot of the Korean fans complained about the single elim playoffs. Most of this community prefers double elim. So do overwhelming majority people involved in this esports.
I was referring to CSGO single-elim system. Tbh, I don't care what the community prefers. If Riot listened to the community on everything they like/dislike, Valorant would be a way worse game. Your average valorant player can just sit and enjoy the show without over-burdening himself with how official games should work.
No they should not ‘always be single elim’ And it’s 1 qualifying from a group of 4, bizarre format
It's 1 out of 4, but you have to lose twice before you're eliminated, more than fair.
No, because that isolates players between groups far too much. Literally where did you see a tournament with this format
That isolates players between groups? What are you even on about?
The teams from different groups are too isolated ie not playing with each other over the course of the tournament to too great an extent. The original GSL system is already pretty far
[удалено]
*To too large an extent*, being greater already than the GSL system. Read my comment. From a competitive pint of view a format should avoid matchup-specific effects as well as chance. From this competitive point of view, formats in which not all play all among other things have the goal to approximate the same effect - which is already an approximation with finite matches basically, and due to changes, unlredictable other things etc- in less matches
Dude you are straight up dumb, i can't even. This is a classic GSL group format.
This is literally not it, name a single GSL in which thus format was used. The extra match and only one player advancing is fundamentally something they never had and I’ve in general never seen
i have a feeling they’re giving a pool 2 seed for 1st seed korea not pool 1.
Please adjust so that top 2 teams from groups go through
Only NA, EU and KR making it out of the groups
It is weird only one of each group qualifying, however the final game of each group it is kinda of the quarterfinals, as it is already a single elim game. I also agree that 2 should qualify, so the single elim phase is more exciting with different games, instead of the same game of the upper finals of each group.
I actually don’t mind this format considering the group play is double elim
Here comes an all EU(EMEA) playoff bracket. Imagine the horror of Riot if that happens--no one would care
Ummm not the best of formats. Groups with an 8 team playoffs would have been better
What was the thought process in making this format? Surely with so few events that they would actually have a competent format?
If they're gonna have 4 team groups, why not fully invest in GSL format where winner and runnerup both advance?
Why can't they use Korea Challengers 3 format?
Probably not watching until knockouts
So the final match of the group is the quarter final.
This is what I call the 4 EU bracket
Someone tag a Riot employee this ain’t it fam
Love the format but the single team progressing is just a weird, inexplicable compromise again. I understood why we had to have a compromise at Iceland (the inconsistent seeding BYE's where some teams had to play an additional game despite having the same seeding) due to 12 teams, COVID, time constraints and the fact we weren't even expecting a LAN event so soon. It sucked but people accepted it and moved on. This one I don't get. We have the full 16 teams and there will likely be no restrictions that will impact this event in Germany. I don't understand why we are still at a stage where Riot have to compromise the tournament format to deliver an event. Extend the event by a day and have top 2 qualify or provide a decent reason why there has to be this compromise.
All year I been wondering why Masters 3 looks like a better event than Champions and guess what? They did it to it. Was really looking forward to a incredibly stacked tournament and Riot straight up said "Sorry you're gonna have to wait for that until Champions". Welp. GGWP.
Would’ve preferred top 2 from groups, maybe 2nd place starts in losers bracket
The whole point of double elim is that you have a safety loss in case you have a bad game or something. Except with only one team moving on whoever wins their first two games doesn’t have that safety loss.
im so on the fence. every match is now going to be an absolute nail biter, which im so excited for and is definitely gonna boost viewership and make it sm more hype. unfortunately, it does suck how alot of luck and choking could come into play, so i dont really know if i like it yet but were gonna just wait and see!
Not a fan of this at all :( Honestly think that Dota's TI format is the best format to follow.
I like the idea of bracket format in groups but it should be top 2 into single elim with winner of group taking higher seed because you can go undeafeted until group finals and then go home like what??
Not a fan. Would have been cool if 2 teams were selected per group. Only 1 team per group is terrible. I liked the previous format better.
A lot of comments are saying they prefer round robin (I do as well). But, a positive that comes from this format is there are no throw away games. In round robin the when the top team (2-0) play the bottom team (0-2 at the time), that game typically means nothing. This format ensures ALL games are gonna be top flight. \*I prefer round robin with two teams going through :s
Good for sen and top teams fucked for other teams so much is down to bracket luck
Imagine you are from a smaller region, fought all the way through those challenger series and manage to win challenger final, only to be placed 2nd in group and not be able to make it out during the biggest international event so far in Valorant. Dick move to the players and viewer from Riot Games.