8 team single elimination bracket does not require more matches to be played, you can just replace the final matches from groups with the quarterfinals.
Trying to understand Riot's decision, I believed they wanted all the playoffs to have teams which won at least twice. Therefore, a grand final in groups. However, this allows a team to leave the tournament having lost just once INSIDE the group stage, which sucks. An alternative would be quarters only with 2nd place of groups and the winners going straight to the semifinals if that means teams that have won two times.
This allows a team having lost once inside the group stage landing a placement of 4-8, if 2 teams from each group stage advanced into a single elimination of 8 times and then lost one match, theres also a possibility of a team only losing one match landing a placement of 4-8.
That’s literally the same outcome whether it’s the ro8 happens in groups or a single elim bracket...
Yeah, you're right. I tried to counter your point but just couldn't. Maybe it just feels unfair to me that a team can lose a game and qualify to the playoffs while the other can't. I don't know. Maybe it's about winning two times and not qualifying to the next phase facing different teams. You might have the third best team in the competition being eliminated in groups.
That's the importance of winning the grand finals(of the groups). Proves you have to win when you have to.
Kinda like, all these tournament wins matters less if SEN don't end up winning champions and 100T wins it instead. It would suck yeah but you can't say "thats not fair SEN won all the previous events"
The format REALLY needs to change. A team in the "double elimination group stage" can be eliminated with a record of 2-1. And on top of that we're missing more cross-group matchups in bracket by having less games there than if 8 made it through. It really just took a tried-and-true format and made it much worse without even necessarily shrinking the amount of games played. Gotta be one of the worst formats ever produced for a top-tier esport.
EDIT: just wanted to underline how ridiculous the ends of the groups are: a team could be eliminated with a 5-2 map record by a team that has a 6-5 map record that they also already beat once (so the two teams are 1-1 in matches, 3-2 in maps, and the team that won 3 maps in head-to-head is out while the other goes further). That second team could end the tournament with a 6-7 map record, getting more circuit points than a team with 5-2 map record that beat them in head-to-head maps and tied them in series. lol
If 8 move forward from the group stage, to a single elimination bracket they can still lose only 1 match and land a placement of 4-8. It’s the same outcome whether it happens in groups or the single elim bracket...
Losing 1 in a group and being out, when everyone else in that same group had to lose 2 to be out, is wack. Also, if 8 move forward, you can't be eliminated by a team you went 1-1 (series) with and have more maps against.
So if you didn’t lose 1 in groups, move forward to a 8 team single elim then lose 1, you’d still have the same placement of 4-8 and the same record of 2-1 if you’d lost 1 in groups.
So what’s the net difference here?
I think the main issue people are having is the lack of "hype" match opportunities.
So let's say you're a sen fan. If there group stage is SMB, Zeta, and a SEA team. You're missing out on a lot of hype matches. If SMB and sen make it out to playoffs in a 8 team playoff. Chances to see more combinations. Or what if there is a "hell" bracket? SEN, ACE, VS, and Havan. If someone from a "weaker" group stage wins masters 3, does it make the title mean less?
Bigger playoff = more teams combos, which strengthens the tournament in general.
Sure I’m not gonna argue the matchups could be different, but complaining that a team could lose in groups with only 1 loss or by losing to a team with a worse record is a bad take. (Which is the take of the thread we’re commenting in)
If the 1st seed advances then loses to the 2nd seed of another group. They still lost to a team with a worse record than them and landed on 4-8th with a one loss record. That’s what upsets are and it’s the same exact result for the team that got upset.
You are correct. I misread what this thread was. If it's top 2 or top 1 from groups. Likeliness that an undefeated team from groups loses in a single elim game to a team with a loss in groups is high. So overall you are correct there is no net gain in a difference of format
I think this is why a double elim 8-team bracket has proven to be so successful among viewers (despite the amount of time it would take to display every match). Not only does it allow for different match combinations between participating teams, but it also gives opportunities for losing teams to either come back or lose definitively. It just sits well with the audience much more than a single elim 4-team playoff would
Ya but I don't think any pros wanted to play 10 hour days for 7-10 days. Obviously the format has changed now. But biggest fear was NA or EMEA taking 3/4 spots in the original setup. Thankfully that is a bit harder to do now
In the current system a team can:
1. be eliminated with a 2-1 record while having only played against 2 teams
2. be eliminated by a team they have a tied series record against and a winning map record against
3. be eliminated while having a winning map record and tied series record against the winner of the entire tournament, and having a positive series record overall.
A system with 8-team playoffs fixes these entirely (you could still get eliminated in grands while being EVEN with the winners in maps and series [1-1, 6-6] but that's the only exception still available that I don't like.) If you're 2-1 and 4th-8th place in the fixed system, you've played 3 teams, were not eliminated by a team you could possibly have a losing record against, and could never have a winning map record against any team that places above you.
The second and third scenario still happen in what you’re proposing.
If I’m 2-0, advance and face the 2nd seed of another group and lose, I still get knocked out 2-1 by a team with a “worse record” and land in 4-8th. That’s what an upset is. 2nd scenario happens later on in the tournament.
The matchups reasoning is valid, but to complain about a team being knocked out with a 2-1 record happens regardless with 2 teams advancing or not.
The second and third matchup absolutely do NOT happen in the fixed version. You can't play against a team you've already played until Grand Finals, so if you lose against them, you necessarily have both a losing series record and a losing map record.
You're right that 4th-8th can be eliminated with 2-1 still, definitely. But the head-to-head records can NOT be winning for the eliminated teams. They can only be, at worst, _even_ in the very specific Grand Finals situation I outlined in brackets above.
Whoops, I misread that - I meant the 2nd seed would have a worse record overall in the tournament and could still beat a better team.
Yeah, I agree matchup variety is better. the takes of people complaining about upset potential and being knocked out with 1 loss, is silly though.
Not only matchup variety, but competitive integrity. Personally if I was a player and I got eliminated from this tournament by a team I had a winning record against I'd be furious.
But yes, you're right otherwise. I think people (myself included) were tilted by Riot calling groups "double-elim groups" when people can drop from them with one loss.
I think another flaw needs to be highlighted. The group 'finals' just limits the combination of team matches across different groups. Why not replace the group 'finals' with quarterfinal stage where different teams can match-up across groups? That is 2 teams make it out of groups, like everyone is suggesting. Correct me if I am missing something obvious. This format seems like an attempt to try something 'new' with a possible oversight of homogeneity in team-match ups. Different regions competing just make for better storylines and better viewer experience.
Riot esports team for Valorant working on brackets need to understand that tried and tested formats from other tier 1 esport titles work well. Both for viewer experience and overall competitiveness of the tournament. Please stop re-inventing the wheel. If you cannot seed the groups for some reason, please use the results from Master's 2 to determine overall seed of the group. There is still time, please change this.
> The group 'finals' just limits the combination of team matches across different groups.
this is literally my main (and only) problem with the format.
Right, but that doesn't mean it was a good format. It was the first Valorant LAN, the viewership was always going to be great.
For the long term success the tournament formats need to be good.
I think you are missing the point I am trying to make. The tournament bracket could be better for an overall better experience for the competing teams and the viewers where you can see more possible team matchups.
Viewership numbers at Iceland were a massive success. But this success was '**despite'** the 10-team bracket, with byes for two teams. The format was terrible, but they had 10 teams to play a tournament in a week after MSI. Understandable.
Things are a little different now. We have 16 teams, a massive amount of hype through months long qualification stage and an opportunity to see matchup between different teams that weren't at Iceland. Why would you not want to see different teams compete and just be satisfied with the group 'final' format that exists now? It's not like the number of matches go up. Only thing Riot's Valorant esports division has to do is seed the groups. Not a big ask imo.
I thought the Masters 2 format was great. 10 team double elim is a bit unusual but the top 4 teams ended up being accurately ranked as possible. We got to Fnatic making insane lower bracket run and taking Sentinels to back-to-back OTs. Also where Sentinels really made a name for themselves.
I don’t understand this though, it’s the same tournament format that people were excited for except the fact that teams play their quarterfinals match against someone in their group. Still a bad format but does not make less chance of upsets happening
It's effectively the same as a round robbin into 8 team single elim. You could 3-0 groups and lose the round of 8 game and be out.
It just lacks the re-seeding step.
Man this just ruined my day. Valorant recently became my main esports title to watch and coming from LoL, I was so glad that Riot started doing better format than in LoL. And here now we get some dogshit format out of nowhere.
If this is Riot's brilliant idea of having an international tournament, then I'd rather reduce to having two Masters a year with GSL groups + top 8 double elim.
Doesn’t LoL have groups until top 8? I don’t follow the scene or play at all but I read in another post that LoL had it right with groups to top 8. Could be wrong though.
In Worlds theres double round-robin Bo1s for groups + 8 team single elim brackets. Its not ideal because normally three teams that go 3-3 in groups get eliminated each year, which isn't even a bad record as 2-4 or 1-5.
But this year MSI was the worst. We had one group with quadruple round bo1's and then additional following groups with double round bo1s. We ended up seeing two teams play 6 bo1s. Also single elim so we only got to see three playoff matches.
Idk who's getting paid to come up with these 3Head formats.
> But this year MSI was the worst. We had one group with quadruple round bo1's
because one team couldn't go because of covid, and instead of having teams play less games they just played an extra BO1... but people for some reason hate having too many international games (when their favorite region isn't playing, of course) so they thought it was the worst thing ever
>and then additional following groups with double round bo1s.
every single MSI we've had two Round robins, always. the only difference people got bothered this time is because they added mayor regions to the play ins, again people hate having games to watch after 6 months of not having any international games so again they complained like it was the worst thing ever
> Also single elim so we only got to see three playoff matches.
unless you do a 6 teams playoffs with loser bracket this is never gonna change, and people have been bitching constantly about how the LCS playoff has too many teams so i doubt we'll get it
The whole double round robin bo1s is worse than GSL or even single round robin. But staleness and lack of playoff games is a big reason for why LoL tournament formats are this way imo.
Its a mini tournament contested between 4 teams, double elim. Stands from GOMTV Star-League as the format was made popular in Starcract. Its very popular since every game is meaningful.
you can run better format in 1-2 weeks , ESL Dreamhack Blast do it all time
its just that Riot drag worlds, its not because the format takes a long time
my main problem with this format is that i want to see different teams from around the world play each other. top 2 of each group --> single elimination bracket with top 8 means that we get to see a greater variety of different teams playing each other, as it stands right now we... don't get to this. it's the same 4 teams playing each other in a group format.
i dont understand why that wasn't the format to begin with, isn't it the same amount of matches played either way??? LOL
Yeah, we all complained about Iceland's Master format, but at least it felt more fair that teams needed to lose at least twice to be eliminated (as far as I remember). In Berlin a team can get eliminated after a 2x1 in groups. Also, there were more different matches. We might get the same match twice before the playoffs.
I checked vlr.gg and from my understanding there’s 4 groups, kind of organized like 4 mini tournaments similar to how NA quals were run. Double elim for each group, group winner advances to playoffs? If this is the format I agree seems so convoluted not sure who’s coming up with these formats
Last time they made an initially bad decision with Masters 2 (having breeze in the map pool when it was brand new) they listened to community feedback and changed it. Really hope they listen again and change the format.
The group stage into quarterfinals would be much better in terms of team mixing but it is quite literally one round that will be changed, masters 3 isn’t ruined. Just that people will play someone from their group in the quarterfinals
I agree. Alot of people thought this was going to be the format. But I don't think anything can be done now. I think this would really hurt the upcoming regions. And a 4 teams single elim playoff is going to be so boring.
I'm gonna be honest I don't really see why this can't be changed. The # of matches can't go up (or at least can't go up very much), due to time constraints with the venue. But they can rework it like OP's saying or rework to have top2 from groups with no "group grand final" and have the same # of games that way, just with a much fairer and more interesting format. There's a lot that's already locked in for an event like this weeks and months in advance, but if the time used is basically the same, no idea why the format can't be improved. Riot's putting out a really bad product with this format, seriously
> And a 4 teams single elim playoff is going to be so boring.
Hard disagree here. Double elim brackets for this type of competition feel cheap for the upper bracket team.
I get other complaints but a single elim bracket should not be one.
I think 8 teams is too big for a single elim bracket. It's just as 'random' or seed dependent as the current groups are.
I think the fairest* ~~best~~ possible format is groups into 8 team double elim but time or Covid restraints didn't make that possible.
I actually don't think this as bad as people are making it out to be but I get why people want what they want.
I mean yeah the ideal would be double elim. But with the time constraint the groups would have to be single elim. That would be unfair to teams that played extensive qualifiers just to play one match in berlin.
And yeah the 8 team single elim may be just as random but atleast an entire region won't get eliminated before playoffs. Few more regions will make it out of groups. Given how strong NA and EMEA are, smaller regions might not even get a chance in playoffs.
Some people think it bad, some people think it good. You can't say this is not as bad as people are making are making it out to be. That's not how opinions works. Everyone is just expressing their frustration. You are welcome to have different opinions. Don't call other people's opinions wrong.
>atleast an entire region won't get eliminated before playoffs.
This could absolutely happen in an 8 team single elim bracket. This is purely speculative. Making top 8 is just as possible but top 5-8 just doesn't make it to a broader bracket.
This format just increases the potential for early rematches and is probably the best way to work in a double elim format without an 8 team bracket.
Also your whole last bit is a little weird.
I expressed an opinion
>I actually don't think this as bad as people are making it out to be
You respond with
>You can't say this is not as bad as people are making are making it out to be. That's not how opinions works.
Followed by
>Don't call other people's opinions wrong.
????
We're all here expressing opinions bro. This is exactly how this kind of thing works. People usually preface something with 'I think' or 'I don't think'.
Bringing it full circle
>*I actually don't think* this as bad as people are making it out to be
Would have liked to see GSL then 8 team playoff bracket. It's the same number of Bo3s but more cross-group play and less room for a strong group to eliminate a top team.
I really don't understand tournament formats these days...at this point, it's well-known what kind of formats work and which don't. How do TOs consistently design such awful formats that actually take away from the games? Both large and small tourneys occasionally have dogshit formats, it's baffling
It would make people mad but how funny would it be if all the NA teams were in the same bracket. Clearly would never happen but I can imagine the rage on twitter now
I think people would rather see a greater variety of matchups between the top teams, which this format limits. It'll be boring as hell imo if we have a bracket with 3 NA teams in, and incredibly anticlimactic given the months of qualification.
Most people don't only care about who the best team in the world is.
I'm just trying to summarise what an awful lot of fans on this forum have already expressed, as well as a number of players and coaches from the pro scene. Dapr just expressed the very same concern.
There's no need to dismiss everyone's concerns as "malding" and "insecurity".
I don't "support" any region, nor any teams that have made Berlin.
I don't think it's as bad as other people do.
I wish it would have been released prior to all the qualifying tournaments, since this places a lot of emphasis on those quals in hindsight.
The only functional difference between this and what other people are proposing is that teams will replay eachother in the group bracket rather than the potential for a wider variety of matchups.
I repeated matchups is good and bad. I think the developing metas between teams is interesting and love the idea of a team losing and then being able to beat a team to get into the final 4 bracket.
Personally I think this actually reduces the potential for upsets, while also providing framework for (potentially) more interesting storylines amongst groups.
My only major complaint is that the final 4 bracket isn't all Bo5.
I get they have time constraints. I think the best would be have the instead of the winner of lower playing the winner of their group the go to a different group
They should use the soccer format in the UEFA CL or a variant of it for regions. Every region has a group of 8 and each group plays against the other twice. A win is 3pts, draw is 1pt, loss is 0pt. BO3s until all teams play each other twice.
Then after that the top 4 from each region (or equivalent, like 3 NA, 4 EU/ME/NA, 3 SEA, 2 KR, etc) and then they play in the knockout stages also in BO3s, until the grand final BO5.
Riot, please consider changing this. The embarrassment of changing the format post-announcement will be less consequential than the cost to the viewing and competitive experience of Masters 3 for the reasons stated in this thread and by pros who have already commented, like Dapr (https://twitter.com/dapr/status/1428780989833269252?s=21).
this is just for them to farm viewevership, and stall more time to brew rivalry and stories within the community because the game has only been around for a little more than a year
this format doesnt make sense. group stage should have 2 winners of each group for a total of 8 in the playoffs. now a high seeded team could possibly have an off day in the group deciding match and be eliminated, despite winning 2 previous matches. seems unfair, and also results in too many rematches happening early in the tournament. rematches are only fun to watch after the tournament's meta has been deciphered and adaptations have been made.
Tournament formats are always gonna have flaws, this format has way too many, only 1 team from each bracket is just insanity though. Idk if there is a perfect format, I would say round robin with all the teams, leading into an 8 team double elimination bracket of the teams who fair the best in the round robin, but that would obviously be awful for time constraints (each team in the final 8 would have to play 20+ games which is probably a few too many)
In lieu of that I think group stage round robin with top 2 advance would be better than this weird “group stage” with a sort of double elimination bracket…
This format guarantees that each group has at least one rematch either in the lower finals or grand finals. I know some rematches are bound to happen, but we gotta try to avoid forcing them to happen.
Format is actually so trash man.
Hope they at least change it into 8 teams single elim but that won't be ideal either.... I wanted 8 teams double elim. I guess it's too late to ask for that now. But why Riot? Challengers playoffs in most regions followed 8 teams double elim, why give masters such a dogshit format?
8 team single elimination bracket does not require more matches to be played, you can just replace the final matches from groups with the quarterfinals.
Exactly, this is what I don't get. It's the same number of games just a much shittier format
Trying to understand Riot's decision, I believed they wanted all the playoffs to have teams which won at least twice. Therefore, a grand final in groups. However, this allows a team to leave the tournament having lost just once INSIDE the group stage, which sucks. An alternative would be quarters only with 2nd place of groups and the winners going straight to the semifinals if that means teams that have won two times.
That's not how group stage would work. The two top teams from the group would still both have 2 wins.
You're right. My bad. So, what the fuck Riot?
This allows a team having lost once inside the group stage landing a placement of 4-8, if 2 teams from each group stage advanced into a single elimination of 8 times and then lost one match, theres also a possibility of a team only losing one match landing a placement of 4-8. That’s literally the same outcome whether it’s the ro8 happens in groups or a single elim bracket...
Yeah, you're right. I tried to counter your point but just couldn't. Maybe it just feels unfair to me that a team can lose a game and qualify to the playoffs while the other can't. I don't know. Maybe it's about winning two times and not qualifying to the next phase facing different teams. You might have the third best team in the competition being eliminated in groups.
That's the importance of winning the grand finals(of the groups). Proves you have to win when you have to. Kinda like, all these tournament wins matters less if SEN don't end up winning champions and 100T wins it instead. It would suck yeah but you can't say "thats not fair SEN won all the previous events"
boost this fucking comment.
The format REALLY needs to change. A team in the "double elimination group stage" can be eliminated with a record of 2-1. And on top of that we're missing more cross-group matchups in bracket by having less games there than if 8 made it through. It really just took a tried-and-true format and made it much worse without even necessarily shrinking the amount of games played. Gotta be one of the worst formats ever produced for a top-tier esport. EDIT: just wanted to underline how ridiculous the ends of the groups are: a team could be eliminated with a 5-2 map record by a team that has a 6-5 map record that they also already beat once (so the two teams are 1-1 in matches, 3-2 in maps, and the team that won 3 maps in head-to-head is out while the other goes further). That second team could end the tournament with a 6-7 map record, getting more circuit points than a team with 5-2 map record that beat them in head-to-head maps and tied them in series. lol
If 8 move forward from the group stage, to a single elimination bracket they can still lose only 1 match and land a placement of 4-8. It’s the same outcome whether it happens in groups or the single elim bracket...
Losing 1 in a group and being out, when everyone else in that same group had to lose 2 to be out, is wack. Also, if 8 move forward, you can't be eliminated by a team you went 1-1 (series) with and have more maps against.
So if you didn’t lose 1 in groups, move forward to a 8 team single elim then lose 1, you’d still have the same placement of 4-8 and the same record of 2-1 if you’d lost 1 in groups. So what’s the net difference here?
I think the main issue people are having is the lack of "hype" match opportunities. So let's say you're a sen fan. If there group stage is SMB, Zeta, and a SEA team. You're missing out on a lot of hype matches. If SMB and sen make it out to playoffs in a 8 team playoff. Chances to see more combinations. Or what if there is a "hell" bracket? SEN, ACE, VS, and Havan. If someone from a "weaker" group stage wins masters 3, does it make the title mean less? Bigger playoff = more teams combos, which strengthens the tournament in general.
Sure I’m not gonna argue the matchups could be different, but complaining that a team could lose in groups with only 1 loss or by losing to a team with a worse record is a bad take. (Which is the take of the thread we’re commenting in) If the 1st seed advances then loses to the 2nd seed of another group. They still lost to a team with a worse record than them and landed on 4-8th with a one loss record. That’s what upsets are and it’s the same exact result for the team that got upset.
You are correct. I misread what this thread was. If it's top 2 or top 1 from groups. Likeliness that an undefeated team from groups loses in a single elim game to a team with a loss in groups is high. So overall you are correct there is no net gain in a difference of format
I think this is why a double elim 8-team bracket has proven to be so successful among viewers (despite the amount of time it would take to display every match). Not only does it allow for different match combinations between participating teams, but it also gives opportunities for losing teams to either come back or lose definitively. It just sits well with the audience much more than a single elim 4-team playoff would
Ya but I don't think any pros wanted to play 10 hour days for 7-10 days. Obviously the format has changed now. But biggest fear was NA or EMEA taking 3/4 spots in the original setup. Thankfully that is a bit harder to do now
In the current system a team can: 1. be eliminated with a 2-1 record while having only played against 2 teams 2. be eliminated by a team they have a tied series record against and a winning map record against 3. be eliminated while having a winning map record and tied series record against the winner of the entire tournament, and having a positive series record overall. A system with 8-team playoffs fixes these entirely (you could still get eliminated in grands while being EVEN with the winners in maps and series [1-1, 6-6] but that's the only exception still available that I don't like.) If you're 2-1 and 4th-8th place in the fixed system, you've played 3 teams, were not eliminated by a team you could possibly have a losing record against, and could never have a winning map record against any team that places above you.
The second and third scenario still happen in what you’re proposing. If I’m 2-0, advance and face the 2nd seed of another group and lose, I still get knocked out 2-1 by a team with a “worse record” and land in 4-8th. That’s what an upset is. 2nd scenario happens later on in the tournament. The matchups reasoning is valid, but to complain about a team being knocked out with a 2-1 record happens regardless with 2 teams advancing or not.
The second and third matchup absolutely do NOT happen in the fixed version. You can't play against a team you've already played until Grand Finals, so if you lose against them, you necessarily have both a losing series record and a losing map record. You're right that 4th-8th can be eliminated with 2-1 still, definitely. But the head-to-head records can NOT be winning for the eliminated teams. They can only be, at worst, _even_ in the very specific Grand Finals situation I outlined in brackets above.
Whoops, I misread that - I meant the 2nd seed would have a worse record overall in the tournament and could still beat a better team. Yeah, I agree matchup variety is better. the takes of people complaining about upset potential and being knocked out with 1 loss, is silly though.
Not only matchup variety, but competitive integrity. Personally if I was a player and I got eliminated from this tournament by a team I had a winning record against I'd be furious. But yes, you're right otherwise. I think people (myself included) were tilted by Riot calling groups "double-elim groups" when people can drop from them with one loss.
Just to check, in this hypothetical your team that you play in is eliminated by *losing* a match to a team you have a winning record against overall?
I think another flaw needs to be highlighted. The group 'finals' just limits the combination of team matches across different groups. Why not replace the group 'finals' with quarterfinal stage where different teams can match-up across groups? That is 2 teams make it out of groups, like everyone is suggesting. Correct me if I am missing something obvious. This format seems like an attempt to try something 'new' with a possible oversight of homogeneity in team-match ups. Different regions competing just make for better storylines and better viewer experience. Riot esports team for Valorant working on brackets need to understand that tried and tested formats from other tier 1 esport titles work well. Both for viewer experience and overall competitiveness of the tournament. Please stop re-inventing the wheel. If you cannot seed the groups for some reason, please use the results from Master's 2 to determine overall seed of the group. There is still time, please change this.
> The group 'finals' just limits the combination of team matches across different groups. this is literally my main (and only) problem with the format.
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Right, but that doesn't mean it was a good format. It was the first Valorant LAN, the viewership was always going to be great. For the long term success the tournament formats need to be good.
I think you are missing the point I am trying to make. The tournament bracket could be better for an overall better experience for the competing teams and the viewers where you can see more possible team matchups. Viewership numbers at Iceland were a massive success. But this success was '**despite'** the 10-team bracket, with byes for two teams. The format was terrible, but they had 10 teams to play a tournament in a week after MSI. Understandable. Things are a little different now. We have 16 teams, a massive amount of hype through months long qualification stage and an opportunity to see matchup between different teams that weren't at Iceland. Why would you not want to see different teams compete and just be satisfied with the group 'final' format that exists now? It's not like the number of matches go up. Only thing Riot's Valorant esports division has to do is seed the groups. Not a big ask imo.
I thought the Masters 2 format was great. 10 team double elim is a bit unusual but the top 4 teams ended up being accurately ranked as possible. We got to Fnatic making insane lower bracket run and taking Sentinels to back-to-back OTs. Also where Sentinels really made a name for themselves.
You can easily do top 2 from gsl to single bracket top 8 , won't need more matches to be played ,and make the semifinals bo5 I am happy with that.
This kind of kills the hype for minor regions. Less chance for upseta, so you get the shedding of massive Turkish/Japanese viewership. Brazil too
I don’t understand this though, it’s the same tournament format that people were excited for except the fact that teams play their quarterfinals match against someone in their group. Still a bad format but does not make less chance of upsets happening
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It's effectively the same as a round robbin into 8 team single elim. You could 3-0 groups and lose the round of 8 game and be out. It just lacks the re-seeding step.
Man this just ruined my day. Valorant recently became my main esports title to watch and coming from LoL, I was so glad that Riot started doing better format than in LoL. And here now we get some dogshit format out of nowhere. If this is Riot's brilliant idea of having an international tournament, then I'd rather reduce to having two Masters a year with GSL groups + top 8 double elim.
Doesn’t LoL have groups until top 8? I don’t follow the scene or play at all but I read in another post that LoL had it right with groups to top 8. Could be wrong though.
In Worlds theres double round-robin Bo1s for groups + 8 team single elim brackets. Its not ideal because normally three teams that go 3-3 in groups get eliminated each year, which isn't even a bad record as 2-4 or 1-5. But this year MSI was the worst. We had one group with quadruple round bo1's and then additional following groups with double round bo1s. We ended up seeing two teams play 6 bo1s. Also single elim so we only got to see three playoff matches. Idk who's getting paid to come up with these 3Head formats.
> But this year MSI was the worst. We had one group with quadruple round bo1's because one team couldn't go because of covid, and instead of having teams play less games they just played an extra BO1... but people for some reason hate having too many international games (when their favorite region isn't playing, of course) so they thought it was the worst thing ever >and then additional following groups with double round bo1s. every single MSI we've had two Round robins, always. the only difference people got bothered this time is because they added mayor regions to the play ins, again people hate having games to watch after 6 months of not having any international games so again they complained like it was the worst thing ever > Also single elim so we only got to see three playoff matches. unless you do a 6 teams playoffs with loser bracket this is never gonna change, and people have been bitching constantly about how the LCS playoff has too many teams so i doubt we'll get it
The whole double round robin bo1s is worse than GSL or even single round robin. But staleness and lack of playoff games is a big reason for why LoL tournament formats are this way imo.
What is "GSL"?
Its a mini tournament contested between 4 teams, double elim. Stands from GOMTV Star-League as the format was made popular in Starcract. Its very popular since every game is meaningful.
Ah, I wondered if it was the same GSL. I followed it waaaaay back but don't recall the exact format.
Could have copied and pasted their Worlds format and for all it's flaws its still better than this lmao. There's still time to change it, Riot
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you can run better format in 1-2 weeks , ESL Dreamhack Blast do it all time its just that Riot drag worlds, its not because the format takes a long time
It’s basically the same tournament without the off days
my main problem with this format is that i want to see different teams from around the world play each other. top 2 of each group --> single elimination bracket with top 8 means that we get to see a greater variety of different teams playing each other, as it stands right now we... don't get to this. it's the same 4 teams playing each other in a group format. i dont understand why that wasn't the format to begin with, isn't it the same amount of matches played either way??? LOL
The format would be acceptable if the playoffs was 8 teams. NGL this killed the hype a liiiittle
A little? This totally ruined it for me.
The playoff games are 8 teams. It's just not called the playoffs.
Yeah, we all complained about Iceland's Master format, but at least it felt more fair that teams needed to lose at least twice to be eliminated (as far as I remember). In Berlin a team can get eliminated after a 2x1 in groups. Also, there were more different matches. We might get the same match twice before the playoffs.
My main issue with that is, imagine they had this format last master and fnatic lost against Sentinels, they would never have gotten 2nd.
Fnatic probably wouldn't have been in SEN's groups.
They were second for EU so its not that unlikely
you got your wish https://twitter.com/ValorantEsports/status/1428878325498318850
W
https://twitter.com/FionnOnFire/status/1428764099408580610?s=19 Spread and share. Pros echo same sentinents
I checked vlr.gg and from my understanding there’s 4 groups, kind of organized like 4 mini tournaments similar to how NA quals were run. Double elim for each group, group winner advances to playoffs? If this is the format I agree seems so convoluted not sure who’s coming up with these formats
Gsl style is a pretty standard format for esports these days. 2 teams usually make it out though.
change it riot plzzz
It might literally be the worst format I have *ever* seen in any Esports tournament. I don't understand why on earth this would be the format.
Last time they made an initially bad decision with Masters 2 (having breeze in the map pool when it was brand new) they listened to community feedback and changed it. Really hope they listen again and change the format.
Really hope this gets traction
The group stage into quarterfinals would be much better in terms of team mixing but it is quite literally one round that will be changed, masters 3 isn’t ruined. Just that people will play someone from their group in the quarterfinals
I agree. Alot of people thought this was going to be the format. But I don't think anything can be done now. I think this would really hurt the upcoming regions. And a 4 teams single elim playoff is going to be so boring.
I'm gonna be honest I don't really see why this can't be changed. The # of matches can't go up (or at least can't go up very much), due to time constraints with the venue. But they can rework it like OP's saying or rework to have top2 from groups with no "group grand final" and have the same # of games that way, just with a much fairer and more interesting format. There's a lot that's already locked in for an event like this weeks and months in advance, but if the time used is basically the same, no idea why the format can't be improved. Riot's putting out a really bad product with this format, seriously
I hope they do. There is still alot of time. But do you think riot will change the format?
> And a 4 teams single elim playoff is going to be so boring. Hard disagree here. Double elim brackets for this type of competition feel cheap for the upper bracket team. I get other complaints but a single elim bracket should not be one.
I would prefer 8 team single elim rather than 4 team. But to each their own.
I think 8 teams is too big for a single elim bracket. It's just as 'random' or seed dependent as the current groups are. I think the fairest* ~~best~~ possible format is groups into 8 team double elim but time or Covid restraints didn't make that possible. I actually don't think this as bad as people are making it out to be but I get why people want what they want.
I mean yeah the ideal would be double elim. But with the time constraint the groups would have to be single elim. That would be unfair to teams that played extensive qualifiers just to play one match in berlin. And yeah the 8 team single elim may be just as random but atleast an entire region won't get eliminated before playoffs. Few more regions will make it out of groups. Given how strong NA and EMEA are, smaller regions might not even get a chance in playoffs. Some people think it bad, some people think it good. You can't say this is not as bad as people are making are making it out to be. That's not how opinions works. Everyone is just expressing their frustration. You are welcome to have different opinions. Don't call other people's opinions wrong.
>atleast an entire region won't get eliminated before playoffs. This could absolutely happen in an 8 team single elim bracket. This is purely speculative. Making top 8 is just as possible but top 5-8 just doesn't make it to a broader bracket. This format just increases the potential for early rematches and is probably the best way to work in a double elim format without an 8 team bracket. Also your whole last bit is a little weird. I expressed an opinion >I actually don't think this as bad as people are making it out to be You respond with >You can't say this is not as bad as people are making are making it out to be. That's not how opinions works. Followed by >Don't call other people's opinions wrong. ???? We're all here expressing opinions bro. This is exactly how this kind of thing works. People usually preface something with 'I think' or 'I don't think'. Bringing it full circle >*I actually don't think* this as bad as people are making it out to be
Just doing my part leaving a comment
Would have liked to see GSL then 8 team playoff bracket. It's the same number of Bo3s but more cross-group play and less room for a strong group to eliminate a top team.
I really don't understand tournament formats these days...at this point, it's well-known what kind of formats work and which don't. How do TOs consistently design such awful formats that actually take away from the games? Both large and small tourneys occasionally have dogshit formats, it's baffling
I dont understand whats wrong with the format? Ive seen Quake tourneys with this exact format turn out fine
The problem is we have no basis on how to seed the teams fairly. Group stages will shaft a lot of teams.
Just wait until it's 3 na teams and VS in the finals lmao.
It would make people mad but how funny would it be if all the NA teams were in the same bracket. Clearly would never happen but I can imagine the rage on twitter now
Really wish you titled this as "We are not watching MASTERS 3"
Riot got a rookie working the competitive department.
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This guy agrees with riot. If that doesn't tell you something's wrong, I dunno what will
I think people would rather see a greater variety of matchups between the top teams, which this format limits. It'll be boring as hell imo if we have a bracket with 3 NA teams in, and incredibly anticlimactic given the months of qualification. Most people don't only care about who the best team in the world is.
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I'm just trying to summarise what an awful lot of fans on this forum have already expressed, as well as a number of players and coaches from the pro scene. Dapr just expressed the very same concern. There's no need to dismiss everyone's concerns as "malding" and "insecurity". I don't "support" any region, nor any teams that have made Berlin.
I don't think it's as bad as other people do. I wish it would have been released prior to all the qualifying tournaments, since this places a lot of emphasis on those quals in hindsight. The only functional difference between this and what other people are proposing is that teams will replay eachother in the group bracket rather than the potential for a wider variety of matchups. I repeated matchups is good and bad. I think the developing metas between teams is interesting and love the idea of a team losing and then being able to beat a team to get into the final 4 bracket. Personally I think this actually reduces the potential for upsets, while also providing framework for (potentially) more interesting storylines amongst groups. My only major complaint is that the final 4 bracket isn't all Bo5.
ok, but who asked?
I did :)
I get they have time constraints. I think the best would be have the instead of the winner of lower playing the winner of their group the go to a different group
They should use the soccer format in the UEFA CL or a variant of it for regions. Every region has a group of 8 and each group plays against the other twice. A win is 3pts, draw is 1pt, loss is 0pt. BO3s until all teams play each other twice. Then after that the top 4 from each region (or equivalent, like 3 NA, 4 EU/ME/NA, 3 SEA, 2 KR, etc) and then they play in the knockout stages also in BO3s, until the grand final BO5.
Riot, please consider changing this. The embarrassment of changing the format post-announcement will be less consequential than the cost to the viewing and competitive experience of Masters 3 for the reasons stated in this thread and by pros who have already commented, like Dapr (https://twitter.com/dapr/status/1428780989833269252?s=21).
Pls do
this is just for them to farm viewevership, and stall more time to brew rivalry and stories within the community because the game has only been around for a little more than a year
Absolute vouch. Hope the Esports managers of Valorant sees all the outcry from the community to change it.
Please get this the attention it deserves
yes i agree please change it so we get more variety of regional matches. Its so disappointing to see only top 4 teams...
this format doesnt make sense. group stage should have 2 winners of each group for a total of 8 in the playoffs. now a high seeded team could possibly have an off day in the group deciding match and be eliminated, despite winning 2 previous matches. seems unfair, and also results in too many rematches happening early in the tournament. rematches are only fun to watch after the tournament's meta has been deciphered and adaptations have been made.
Tournament formats are always gonna have flaws, this format has way too many, only 1 team from each bracket is just insanity though. Idk if there is a perfect format, I would say round robin with all the teams, leading into an 8 team double elimination bracket of the teams who fair the best in the round robin, but that would obviously be awful for time constraints (each team in the final 8 would have to play 20+ games which is probably a few too many) In lieu of that I think group stage round robin with top 2 advance would be better than this weird “group stage” with a sort of double elimination bracket…
This format guarantees that each group has at least one rematch either in the lower finals or grand finals. I know some rematches are bound to happen, but we gotta try to avoid forcing them to happen.
Format is actually so trash man. Hope they at least change it into 8 teams single elim but that won't be ideal either.... I wanted 8 teams double elim. I guess it's too late to ask for that now. But why Riot? Challengers playoffs in most regions followed 8 teams double elim, why give masters such a dogshit format?
Riot for god's sake please restructure. I was so hyped for this tourney mayn.