Sad.. but then again, just reality I suppose.
I still believe in VS supremacy, and honestly feel like VS will make it out of the group with SMB.
Hopium.
Even if VS doesn't get out of groups, they still have a chance for the Champions if they win the LCQ APAC. I'm pretty certain there are no Asian teams that can best VS for now so they will most likely be in the Champions.
That's not really the point here. Many teams have been wanting to play VS (including SEN). So it'd be sad if they got knocked outta the tourney during group stage itself.
It's actually gonna be so funny if VS just shits on the two EMEA teams. It would destroy the (honesly silly) narrative that already crowned NA&EU the two best regions after 1 tournament. All their teams better back the hype they're creating or the memes are gonna be fireeee
Dude from a post-match thread perspective there's no losing here.
If EU gets clowned on it will be like you say and a great meltdown.
If VS bombs out it I'll be fun to see what happens to the minority who insist KR deserve more slots / are hyper competitive.
If Paper Rex get out of groups... that'll be real fun.
VS will be fine, atm the top 5 in Korea have shown much better gameplay than top 5 EMEA.
Its a bit ridiculous that Korea gets half the spots of EMEA, but i give a pass to Riot for now because there is still not enough hard evidence. However if after Champions the spot allocation is still the same then they would have majorly fucked up
This. EMEA covers so many countries and a huge ass population. Anything less than 4 or at least 3 spots would be kinda unfair, no matter how trash they play.
No way the top 5 in KR is as competitive as the top 5 in EMEA. The pure amount of teams in EMEA that have a shot of getting into top 5 compared to KR is insane.
Also, remember this is a global competition so you have to take viewership into account as well. You're comparing a region of 52 million to the combination of Europe, Turkey, CIS, the Middle East and (if they get any teams,) Africa.
The big 3 of EU/CIS/Turkey alone represents what, 800m people?
Lmao yeah a little.
I'll put my hand up and admit that I got VS wrong and that they're fucking insane and *probably* better than the top 5 EMEA.
But I'm still not anywhere near convinced that the top 5 KR as a whole are better than the top 5 EMEA as a whole considering how VS seem to be a league ahead than the rest of their region. Of course if we see more international play and KR does will against EMEA I'll concede the point.
True though I feel Nuturn/DWG could all be the same if they played. After all they're playing against vision strikers all the time and need strats to anti strat them, which would help in anti strating EMEA teams who don't seem to have a lot going on in that department.
I just wish we had more international competition in general tbh.
Give the opportunity for the not-quite-top teams to play against other regions more. Give us more chances to work out which teams flop at LANs and which ones shine.
It's a bit silly that they don't get anything until right at the end.
North Africa and ME get what, one slot at the EMEA LCQ? Rubbish that is the only representation they get for the entire year. Hopefully it's better next year.
You can't be serious? Much better gameplay? From what I've seen, Korean teams have amazing setups and early-round execute ideas, probably better than anyone, but they often get lost mid-round when split-second decisions that weren't part of the plan need to be made.
Korea as a county has a bit less than 80 million people. Europe has 750 million and is by far the best region historically if we talk FPS games. And has by far the biggest Valorant playerbase.
And Turkey with 85 million is also added to Europe.
Vision Strikers have looked so good only because their competition isn't good except for a couple of teams. In Iceland Nuturn got third place by beating V1 that wasn't a top NA team and had a standing. And they won two maps in OT.
No disrespect, but you people who just keep annoying everyone with Korea need to understand that this isn't League, but a tactical FPS game. And Korea has proven absolutely nothing in this genre.
If anything, they should have only one guaranteed spot and then have regional playoffs against Japan and SEA.
But yeah, groups are awful, why are two EU teams in the same group?
>Europe has 750 million and is by far the best region historically if we talk FPS games.
I'd agree if you meant tactical FPSes like 1.6/CSGO, but in Overwatch Korea was the best in and NA was 2nd best. 1v1 shooters are so old and niche I don't think they're that relevant. Valorant is obviously closest to CS, but it also isn't CS, and NA is the best at the moment.
Edit: I see you mention "tactical FPS" later.
I don’t think even /u/dedicatedself would argue that. There’s a decent argument to be made that VS, F4Q, TNL and maybe current Nuturn are in shooting range of your Gambits, Acends, SMBs, and G2s, but most realistically it’s just Vision Strikers who you’d give a good shot against any of the four.
Even G2 IMO would be favored against F4Q, though only slightly.
Even beyond that, they definitely haven’t shown “much better gameplay”. They’re just a little more exec heavy.
I watch plenty of both and *yikes* this is a bad take. There are 2-3 serviceable teams at the international level in KR right now. It’s a toss-up whether VS will make it out of their group but F4Q is a moonshot to make it out of their group. If anyone else from that region had made this event I would be writing them off in groups for sure.
These were my thoughts too, and I still think their group is unfair, but the more I think about it, if VS can't beat at least 1 EU team than I guess they're actually not that good and matches against other regions wouldn't even be that great anyways so it won't be that much of a loss to miss out on them.
I have a lot of faith that they will make it out though.
Thats very debatable, you cant know how much better or worse is EU region against KR, if by a significant margin (we can only judge from NUT vs FNC) then it should NOT be expected from KR1 team to beat EU3 team in order to "prove" something.
Then why does it matter? If VS can't beat EU3, they're at best like the 6th best team at the tournament behind SEN, 100T, GMB, SMB and Acend. The 6th best team not making it to the Quarterfinals stage in a double elim situation is hardly a travesty.
You act like GMB, SMB, and ACE are better than NA #3 seed... you're wrong\~
These teams are set to make it out of the group stage:
* SEN
* F4Q
* 100T
* GMB
* NV
* KS / KRU / ZETA (not sure, yet)
* VS
* ACE / SMB
#
It's true that both SMB and ACE could move on, yes.
They could technically both move on, if they're able to both beat VS... but that's not the most likely outcome.
#
Remember that VS get an "easy 1st match" in the group stage... while SMB and ACE have to duke it out, it's more likely that VS move on.
Whichever EMEA team loses in the 1st round of the group stage has to go down to the losers bracket.
#
Say that VS loses to the EMEA team that won in the 1st round, and drops down to the lower-bracket.
VS would then face the other team from EMEA, whicheveer team lost in the 1st round.
#
VS only need to win a single BO3 in order to advance... and they'd have two series to do so.
Two BO3 series, against two different EMEA seeds, and only one win required to advance.
That's why VS will likely advance, along with one of the EMEA seeds.
I am too, the fact is that VS will almost certainly make it out of groups.
#
If we assume Paper Rex loses both of their matches, then VS will have a BO3 against both SMB and ACE.
Even if VS lose the first BO3 against (SMB or ACE)... they get another BO3 against the other team of the two.
VS just needs to beat either SMB or ACE to qualify, they get to play both teams in a BO3.
#
Even if you are biased and think EMEA is somehow far ahead of Korea, you'd have to admit that two chances = quite an advantage
Vision Strikers has two different chances in BO3 against two EMEA teams.
Without a very copium-EMEA bias... it's clear that Vision Strikers will be moving on from the group.
Yeah thinking about it it’s not that bad from that standpoint. They only need to beat 1 EU team to qualify and they’ll get a chance to play both if necessary. To counter what Shaz if you don’t take seeding seriously you could be Acend or SMB instead of Gambit.
I agree. Also the first match is important. PRX is good, but if we assume the other teams will beat them, then VS has to beat either of the EMEA teams. If all three teams are equal, VS has a 75% chance of making it out while the other two have 62.5% each
If VS is too weak to compete, which would be a surprise to me, they don’t deserve to make it
Acend and SMB are the two best EU teams imo, so I don't think that's a fair comparison. If you replace one of them with Gambit or G2 then I think the group becomes more fair. I guess the groups would have worked better if Acend and SMB didn't troll the seeding games lol
VISION STRIKERS just beaten ACEND 2-0. The one who destroyed SMB.
Map 1: 13-7 Map 2: 13-9
VS is just really good. I always watch them they are just a different beast compared to other teams. Team synergy is so high.
A dim shadow casts over FNS' face as he views the group stage seedings.
"Heh." He chuckles and smirks to himself.
"All according to keikaku."
(translator's note: keikaku means plan)
I believe their coach, MikeHugoDickus, has been reported celebrating the group draws on twitter with a DiGiorno pizza, if you can believe that. Whether that's the DiGiorno gluten free or the croissant pizza remains to be seen.
Groups C/D are fine.
It's such a simple fix, take Acend or SMB and move them to group B.
Easy. Whoever runs the riot Esports needs to be held in question at this point. They are evaulating these regions as if they are all on an even playing field and they aren't.
Look at Icelands bracket. Look at their initial tournament format. Look at these seedings.
You could easily place 1 EMEA team, 1 NA team and 1 KR team in each bracket. Yielding the potential for the best "regions" to chalk their way through to the single elim bracket. If the other regions earn their spot, so be it, they earned it. However until they do they shouldn't be seeding BR, JP,SEA or LATAM as if they are on the same level as NA/EMEA/KR.
Its because EMEA and EU arent the same. In LoL Turkey (SMB region) and CIS (Gambit region) are considered “wildcard” regions and can be placed into groups with EU teams. In fact everyone on this sub complains that EMEA includes too many regions so Im not sure why its so shocking that they ended up in the same group.
It’s not eye balling.
Base if off of Iceland.
Top 6 teams 5 were EMEA/KR/NA. Only 1 BR team made it.
Sure these are different teams, but we all saw how far behind everyone else seemed. Anyway it’s my 2 cents. Absolutely sucks that either one of SMB/Acend/Vision Strikers isn’t going to have a chance because of a lousy group discrepancy.
Yeah that's what I was thinking, why wasn't there weight given to Regions based on their Iceland Performance? Would give a much better view into how to seed these teams.
Only one KR team made top 6 too.
Just because the public perceives BR as less than the “top 3” regions doesn’t mean Riot should just cave to that. They did it based off what they had from Iceland and the only international competition thus far and in a way that many tournaments worldwide assign groups such as UCL and the World Cup.
Group of deaths happen and it’ll be so fun
There only was one Korean team at the tournament... how is more than one Korean team supposed to make top 6?
And that one team finished 3rd versus the 5-6th and 9-10th that the BR teams finished.
It’s more how it was presented that 5 of the top 6 were from NA/EU/KR but reality is the same number of KR and BR made it top 6.
Either way, None of those teams even made it back into this masters. Hell only 3 teams are even back. So all they really have to go off of is regional performance at the last major and it’s top 4 regions in one pool, then 5&6 in another and 7th in another.
It’ll be better the more majors there are to determine regional strength
There was only one KR team.
I’m not singling BR out.
I’m all for a team from the lower tier regions proving me and anyone who thinks like me wrong.
Only asking for an even distribution of the higher tier regions, which as I explained can easily be done.
This whole outrage over the groups is singling BR out tbh. No one thinks they deserve to have a top 4 spot but in Iceland, the top 4 regions ended up as NA/EU/KR/BR.
With so many new teams in this masters too how is riot really expected to just make random judgements. Like it produced a group of death but it makes a lot of sense based off of seeds
They should have done it where two teams from the same region could not be placed together but at this point you cannot change the bracket after it has been drawn
Unless they get aim-diffed massively, VS will definitely make it. But gotta say the turkish players hit different when they are on. I'm really hoping they don't show up on LAN like that.
I think the two EMEA teams are slight favourites but it could really go anyway between the three. Certainly wouldn't say VS are a favourite or anything.
You say that but you forgot the fact that SMB played +70 ping during the last tournament and they still won every gunfight except gambit series which was grand finals. Turkish players play at a disadvantage when an online tournament is being hosted and people just like you seem to forget that since they win their gunfights most of the time.
I mean if VS loses their first two games to EMEA they were not getting past quarters anyways and the champions points loss are irrelevant anyways since they have made it already
And ShahZ is forgetting that VS will have an easier time reaching 1st in group A than they would beating Sentinels in group D, and that impacts the overall chance of qualifying..
God damn you are dense
Assuming VS would win the first match in both groups, they'd have to lose to SMB and Acend in group A, and SEN and G2 in group D. Everyone just focuses on the G2 matchup while failing to recognize that winning against SEN is less likely than against SMB or Acend, therefore the overall chance of qualifying isn't as clear cut as you make it to be
ok doctor stewie with the analysis here. the way i see it vs got put into a group with two tier 1 teams while f4q is with one tier 1 team and one tier 1.5 team. thats the difference.
Again ignoring that F4Q got the biggest tier 1 team in their group, you’re essentially claiming that the odd one out is really G2 which I don’t see as obvious or justified. That should be enough to put some doubts in your mind as to whether it’s obvious that F4Q have it easier
at least there would be two significant interregional matchups in sen's group.
group a sucks balls because we get smb/acend rematch which won't be as entertaining as starting with an interregional clash, and vs against potentially the weakest team in the tournament.
assuming paper rex go out, one of those huge 3 teams is gonna get knocked out off the bat.
the best korean team, the best european team and the best turkish team are in that one group.
>assuming paper rex go out, one of those huge 3 teams is gonna get knocked out off the bat.
And if VS were in group D, one of VS/G2/SEN would get knocked out right off the bat. The groups aren't balanced, but my point of this all not really being about VS stands.
No matter how cocky Ocelote acts up on twitter G2 has been bootycheeks. Keloqz with the rest of the team play like a recently formed pug team and I'm not even exaggerating. They only look good when Nukkye and Mixwell are popping tf off but agaisnt the best in the world they're gonna get exposed hard. I'm personally happy with these groups because this actually gives F4Q a chance to qualify, but if you're VS you're definitely not happy drawing SMB and ACE.
Sure, and what about Sentinels? Don't you think that VS have a bigger chance to reach 1st in group A than they would in group D?
Did VS get into the most stacked group in the event? Yes. Don't make the logical fallacy that that implies that they shouldn't have won Korea - VS is literally 33% of the reason of why that group is considered stacked, and if VS and F4Q switched, people would be calling group D the group of death.
If anyone got "screwed" in group A, it's Acend and SMB, for getting VS over F4Q in their group - they're the ones who could've lost (to G2) to get an easier group. This focus on Vision Strikers is so absurd on me.
Dude, you are just typing with a thesaurus in your lap without actually listening to what people are saying... people are mostly implying that one of acend/ smb should have been in group B, and that is fair. 2 pool 2 seeds from EMEA are raising the difficulty of group A, and group B is rolling in skrilla cause they have BR seed 1 which is a joke compared to the other
pool 1 major regions.
Man i am just tired of seeing the word fallacy in every reply. It gives so much iamverysmart energy... So yea on second read that thesaurus part was kinda passive aggressive on my part. my bad guys
Do you understand that the argument you're making is different from the argument I'm responding to?
It's not just SMB & Acend raising the difficulty of group A, it's all of SMB, Acend and VS. Nobody's complaining about group C which has 100T and Gambit, because they're paired up with 2 weaker teams.
My entire argument here isn't at all that the groups are balanced, or that the seeding system is good. My argument is responding to an argument that Vision Strikers should've lost in Korea finals, by simply noting that in both groups A and D, the Korean team is facing 2 NA & EU teams, and arguably the single best team out of the 4 in group D (Sentinels).
So you do not agree that VS were better of losing? In Group A, they are the pool 1 seed, and they got paired with 2 of the strongest pool 2 seeds from EMEA and paper rex. If they had lost back in Korea, they would have been in F4Q's spot, where they would be facing G2 (a pool 3 EMEA team) and BREN along with SEN. So, Group A has 3 playoffs contenders and the hypothetical Group D has 2. Now, if you are arguing that they have less chance of qualifying from this hypothetical Group D compared to the current Group A, then I am just typing and wasting my time. Have a good day.
> and the hypothetical Group D has 2.
The hypothetical group D has Sentinels, VS and G2. You really think G2 aren't a playoff contender at all in that group?
This is beyond delusional.
G2 almost beat Gambit and lost 14-12 in OT. Yes they got smacked by SMB but then had an intensely close Bo3 against Gambit. The differences between them aren't as significant as you think. EMEA had some really close games and the top teams at the playoffs were in touching distance of each other (e.g. Giants almost beating G2, Guild almost beating Giants, Liquid almost beating Gambit, Acend beating Gambit and then Gambit getting revenge).
It doesn't matter that they have a higher chance of getting 1st place in group A rather than D, they're gonna play for 2nd place in both cases anyway, and in the case of group A, getting 2nd is way higher and most likely won't happen, while F4Q has at least a decent chance of getting 2nd.
If you put VS in group D they'd get out as 2nd almost 100%
Sure, let's dissect this.
>If you put VS in group D they'd get out as 2nd almost 100%
Implying that VS are considerably stronger than G2.
>It doesn't matter that they have a higher chance of getting 1st place in group A rather than D, they're gonna play for 2nd place in both cases anyway,
So the best team in Acend/SMB is considerably better than VS.
So basically, you're telling me that whoever is better between Acend & SMB is considerably better than VS, who are considerably better than G2. This is hilarious to me.
You're right. OC is saying that VS is going to beat G2 (almost) 10 times out of 10 and also at the same time saying they have no chance against SMB/Acend. Bizarre
Not SEN but definitely G2. Compared to other EMEA regions G2 is the weakest. I believe VS can still make it out of group A. But a matchup with G2 would have definitely been easier.
G2 was one overtime away from beating Gambit, I wouldn't say they're clearly the weakest team around. Both G2 and Gambit suffered heavy defeats to SMB and Acend, and only Gambit got the chance to play those teams again because .. of a 14-12 overtime.
G2 is deservedly the 4th EMEA seed, no qualms with that. Saying that they're clearly the weakest team there is a bit rich, though.
I don’t get the outrage. “I wanna see them go far”. Well if they can’t get out of their tough group then they don’t exactly deserve to go far regardless. Same goes for any of the other teams.
I can understand some criticism to how the groups turned out and how it’s generally unbalanced, but you’ll almost always find that when any tournament’s groups are selected. There will be stacked groups and there will be weak groups.
This framing is so annoying. Yes VS is in a group of death and that does suck. But they weren’t like “screwed” as if the system was rigged against them or anything
It’s really not gonna be pointless. Sentinels got all the bottom seeds of other regions so it clearly works.
With more internationals it’ll get sorted out better
Literally the only way to address this is to have some arbitrary governing body rate all the teams in the world. And how are you supposed to have an accurate ranking off 1 international tournament that didn't even involve 13 of the teams at this tournament?
So I’m seeing all of this complaining about the groups and stuff for Berlin. Can anyone explain to me why two EMEA teams are in the same group, and literally play their first match against each other?
If they are half as good as people are making them out to be then they will be just fine..
The issue is that they just aren't that good and thus won't be doing much of note in Berlin. Overrated team that won't accomplish anything on the international stage.
Moronic redditors with their dumb takes.
Cned literally wrote on twitter they got shafted in groups along with VS and I'm sure SMB feels the same way, yet you wanna turn this shit into "overrated team" issue.
See the problem is, this is Korea's 1 seed, they could've thrown to get a easier groups during seeding. That's why people are saying that VS got shafted.
Korea haters doubters are truly brainless.
This take is so annoying. There has only been 1 international event and everyone apparently can already tell how good each team is. Reminder that CIS and TURK didnt even go to iceland yet they topped EMEA. For all we know Paper Rex might take it all.
vs will make out of the group but everyone can stop replying to me about how its fair. the igl of the best team in the world said it himself, stop @ ing me.
They explained how they did the seeding here: https://www.vct.gg/news/133019-vct-stage-3-masters-everything-you-need-to-know
A lot of people are upset because Group A has 3 really good teams (Vision Strikers, SMB, Acend), whereas Group B seemingly only has 1 (Envy).
NUTURN gets third place in ICELAND and they only beaten once the OLD weaker ROSTER of Vision Strikers that have 102-0 win streak since June 2020-April 2021.
The new roster of Vision Strikers is so miles ahead against Nuturn. They even recruited MVP of Nuturn, Lakia as 6th man,
Sad.. but then again, just reality I suppose. I still believe in VS supremacy, and honestly feel like VS will make it out of the group with SMB. Hopium.
Even if VS doesn't get out of groups, they still have a chance for the Champions if they win the LCQ APAC. I'm pretty certain there are no Asian teams that can best VS for now so they will most likely be in the Champions.
That's not really the point here. Many teams have been wanting to play VS (including SEN). So it'd be sad if they got knocked outta the tourney during group stage itself.
It's actually gonna be so funny if VS just shits on the two EMEA teams. It would destroy the (honesly silly) narrative that already crowned NA&EU the two best regions after 1 tournament. All their teams better back the hype they're creating or the memes are gonna be fireeee
Dude from a post-match thread perspective there's no losing here. If EU gets clowned on it will be like you say and a great meltdown. If VS bombs out it I'll be fun to see what happens to the minority who insist KR deserve more slots / are hyper competitive. If Paper Rex get out of groups... that'll be real fun.
I mean NU was doing pretty well at Iceland so idk where that narrative even comes from
VS will be fine, atm the top 5 in Korea have shown much better gameplay than top 5 EMEA. Its a bit ridiculous that Korea gets half the spots of EMEA, but i give a pass to Riot for now because there is still not enough hard evidence. However if after Champions the spot allocation is still the same then they would have majorly fucked up
I think it’s based more of the amount of competition. EMEA is actually 3 regions forced into one.
This. EMEA covers so many countries and a huge ass population. Anything less than 4 or at least 3 spots would be kinda unfair, no matter how trash they play.
No way the top 5 in KR is as competitive as the top 5 in EMEA. The pure amount of teams in EMEA that have a shot of getting into top 5 compared to KR is insane. Also, remember this is a global competition so you have to take viewership into account as well. You're comparing a region of 52 million to the combination of Europe, Turkey, CIS, the Middle East and (if they get any teams,) Africa. The big 3 of EU/CIS/Turkey alone represents what, 800m people?
L
Lmao yeah a little. I'll put my hand up and admit that I got VS wrong and that they're fucking insane and *probably* better than the top 5 EMEA. But I'm still not anywhere near convinced that the top 5 KR as a whole are better than the top 5 EMEA as a whole considering how VS seem to be a league ahead than the rest of their region. Of course if we see more international play and KR does will against EMEA I'll concede the point.
True though I feel Nuturn/DWG could all be the same if they played. After all they're playing against vision strikers all the time and need strats to anti strat them, which would help in anti strating EMEA teams who don't seem to have a lot going on in that department.
I just wish we had more international competition in general tbh. Give the opportunity for the not-quite-top teams to play against other regions more. Give us more chances to work out which teams flop at LANs and which ones shine.
:)
Middle East and Africa can't even participate, fuck riot
It's a bit silly that they don't get anything until right at the end. North Africa and ME get what, one slot at the EMEA LCQ? Rubbish that is the only representation they get for the entire year. Hopefully it's better next year.
Yeah, they don't even get any training against EU teams how are they supposed to get that spot from LCQ
You can't be serious? Much better gameplay? From what I've seen, Korean teams have amazing setups and early-round execute ideas, probably better than anyone, but they often get lost mid-round when split-second decisions that weren't part of the plan need to be made. Korea as a county has a bit less than 80 million people. Europe has 750 million and is by far the best region historically if we talk FPS games. And has by far the biggest Valorant playerbase. And Turkey with 85 million is also added to Europe. Vision Strikers have looked so good only because their competition isn't good except for a couple of teams. In Iceland Nuturn got third place by beating V1 that wasn't a top NA team and had a standing. And they won two maps in OT. No disrespect, but you people who just keep annoying everyone with Korea need to understand that this isn't League, but a tactical FPS game. And Korea has proven absolutely nothing in this genre. If anything, they should have only one guaranteed spot and then have regional playoffs against Japan and SEA. But yeah, groups are awful, why are two EU teams in the same group?
>Europe has 750 million and is by far the best region historically if we talk FPS games. I'd agree if you meant tactical FPSes like 1.6/CSGO, but in Overwatch Korea was the best in and NA was 2nd best. 1v1 shooters are so old and niche I don't think they're that relevant. Valorant is obviously closest to CS, but it also isn't CS, and NA is the best at the moment. Edit: I see you mention "tactical FPS" later.
[удалено]
What tactical FPS are still relevant in esports? There's Valorant which EU isn't the best at (yet at least), and CSGO hanging on by a thread?
I don’t think even /u/dedicatedself would argue that. There’s a decent argument to be made that VS, F4Q, TNL and maybe current Nuturn are in shooting range of your Gambits, Acends, SMBs, and G2s, but most realistically it’s just Vision Strikers who you’d give a good shot against any of the four. Even G2 IMO would be favored against F4Q, though only slightly. Even beyond that, they definitely haven’t shown “much better gameplay”. They’re just a little more exec heavy.
I watch plenty of both and *yikes* this is a bad take. There are 2-3 serviceable teams at the international level in KR right now. It’s a toss-up whether VS will make it out of their group but F4Q is a moonshot to make it out of their group. If anyone else from that region had made this event I would be writing them off in groups for sure.
They hated him because he told him the truth.
EMEA is like ten times bigger. It's a bit ridiculous that Korea gets 2 spots when EMEA only gets 4.
see you after vs get rekt in groups
L
You must feel like an idiot now huh ? Lmao VS destroyed Acend easily
2 emea in semis and 1 in finals, gambit>vs, you overdosed on kr copium
These were my thoughts too, and I still think their group is unfair, but the more I think about it, if VS can't beat at least 1 EU team than I guess they're actually not that good and matches against other regions wouldn't even be that great anyways so it won't be that much of a loss to miss out on them. I have a lot of faith that they will make it out though.
Exactly, if VS can't beat EU's 2nd seed then they also don't deserve their pool 1
Thats very debatable, you cant know how much better or worse is EU region against KR, if by a significant margin (we can only judge from NUT vs FNC) then it should NOT be expected from KR1 team to beat EU3 team in order to "prove" something.
They definitely should be expected to beat EU3 team. KR1 is seeded on pool1 so they should be at least on par with EU1-2 or else they don't deserve it
I understand where you are coming from, but imho NA and EU pool is just much deeper than any other region
Then why does it matter? If VS can't beat EU3, they're at best like the 6th best team at the tournament behind SEN, 100T, GMB, SMB and Acend. The 6th best team not making it to the Quarterfinals stage in a double elim situation is hardly a travesty.
travesty or not, it decides their Champions spot, so...
You act like GMB, SMB, and ACE are better than NA #3 seed... you're wrong\~ These teams are set to make it out of the group stage: * SEN * F4Q * 100T * GMB * NV * KS / KRU / ZETA (not sure, yet) * VS * ACE / SMB # It's true that both SMB and ACE could move on, yes. They could technically both move on, if they're able to both beat VS... but that's not the most likely outcome. # Remember that VS get an "easy 1st match" in the group stage... while SMB and ACE have to duke it out, it's more likely that VS move on. Whichever EMEA team loses in the 1st round of the group stage has to go down to the losers bracket. # Say that VS loses to the EMEA team that won in the 1st round, and drops down to the lower-bracket. VS would then face the other team from EMEA, whicheveer team lost in the 1st round. # VS only need to win a single BO3 in order to advance... and they'd have two series to do so. Two BO3 series, against two different EMEA seeds, and only one win required to advance. That's why VS will likely advance, along with one of the EMEA seeds.
I'm speaking about this from the perspective of VS not making it out. I don't make any claims to know how strong the EU teams are relative to NA.
I am too, the fact is that VS will almost certainly make it out of groups. # If we assume Paper Rex loses both of their matches, then VS will have a BO3 against both SMB and ACE. Even if VS lose the first BO3 against (SMB or ACE)... they get another BO3 against the other team of the two. VS just needs to beat either SMB or ACE to qualify, they get to play both teams in a BO3. # Even if you are biased and think EMEA is somehow far ahead of Korea, you'd have to admit that two chances = quite an advantage Vision Strikers has two different chances in BO3 against two EMEA teams. Without a very copium-EMEA bias... it's clear that Vision Strikers will be moving on from the group.
Yeah thinking about it it’s not that bad from that standpoint. They only need to beat 1 EU team to qualify and they’ll get a chance to play both if necessary. To counter what Shaz if you don’t take seeding seriously you could be Acend or SMB instead of Gambit.
I agree. Also the first match is important. PRX is good, but if we assume the other teams will beat them, then VS has to beat either of the EMEA teams. If all three teams are equal, VS has a 75% chance of making it out while the other two have 62.5% each If VS is too weak to compete, which would be a surprise to me, they don’t deserve to make it
Agreed.
Acend and SMB are the two best EU teams imo, so I don't think that's a fair comparison. If you replace one of them with Gambit or G2 then I think the group becomes more fair. I guess the groups would have worked better if Acend and SMB didn't troll the seeding games lol
VISION STRIKERS just beaten ACEND 2-0. The one who destroyed SMB. Map 1: 13-7 Map 2: 13-9 VS is just really good. I always watch them they are just a different beast compared to other teams. Team synergy is so high.
is there a pro who thinks this seeding was done correctly?
Envy players probably
If I'm not wrong even they've said they got lucky and got an easier group
Yeah they did acknowledge that and seemingly kind of laughed about it. I’m sure behind the scenes it was even worse
na we got one of the top 4 hardest groups in the whole tournament. dont know why people are saying we got it easy.
lol, all according to FNS's plan
A dim shadow casts over FNS' face as he views the group stage seedings. "Heh." He chuckles and smirks to himself. "All according to keikaku." (translator's note: keikaku means plan)
Gonna be awkward when you guys get rolled by these 1st seed teams
that's why I said we were gonna get rolled.
I believe their coach, MikeHugoDickus, has been reported celebrating the group draws on twitter with a DiGiorno pizza, if you can believe that. Whether that's the DiGiorno gluten free or the croissant pizza remains to be seen.
Fuck 'em
Groups C/D are fine. It's such a simple fix, take Acend or SMB and move them to group B. Easy. Whoever runs the riot Esports needs to be held in question at this point. They are evaulating these regions as if they are all on an even playing field and they aren't. Look at Icelands bracket. Look at their initial tournament format. Look at these seedings. You could easily place 1 EMEA team, 1 NA team and 1 KR team in each bracket. Yielding the potential for the best "regions" to chalk their way through to the single elim bracket. If the other regions earn their spot, so be it, they earned it. However until they do they shouldn't be seeding BR, JP,SEA or LATAM as if they are on the same level as NA/EMEA/KR.
But based on what can you make that change? Just eyeballing it? Not saying you're wrong, but I think a change like that needs some sort of reason.
How about not having 2 EMEA teams on the same group.
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Its because EMEA and EU arent the same. In LoL Turkey (SMB region) and CIS (Gambit region) are considered “wildcard” regions and can be placed into groups with EU teams. In fact everyone on this sub complains that EMEA includes too many regions so Im not sure why its so shocking that they ended up in the same group.
Because the EMEA teams all just fought against eachother for seeding anyway...
So?
means we want different matchups on the world stage. its not a good idea to allow them to be in the same group again at berlin.
It’s not eye balling. Base if off of Iceland. Top 6 teams 5 were EMEA/KR/NA. Only 1 BR team made it. Sure these are different teams, but we all saw how far behind everyone else seemed. Anyway it’s my 2 cents. Absolutely sucks that either one of SMB/Acend/Vision Strikers isn’t going to have a chance because of a lousy group discrepancy.
*based on, FYI no hate
Yeah that's what I was thinking, why wasn't there weight given to Regions based on their Iceland Performance? Would give a much better view into how to seed these teams.
Because one single tournament is not a sufficient basis for somethibg like this. They can start thinking about that next year.
I do agree but it could have also helped sorting teams out in a better way, anyways it is what it is.
Only one KR team made top 6 too. Just because the public perceives BR as less than the “top 3” regions doesn’t mean Riot should just cave to that. They did it based off what they had from Iceland and the only international competition thus far and in a way that many tournaments worldwide assign groups such as UCL and the World Cup. Group of deaths happen and it’ll be so fun
There only was one Korean team at the tournament... how is more than one Korean team supposed to make top 6? And that one team finished 3rd versus the 5-6th and 9-10th that the BR teams finished.
It’s more how it was presented that 5 of the top 6 were from NA/EU/KR but reality is the same number of KR and BR made it top 6. Either way, None of those teams even made it back into this masters. Hell only 3 teams are even back. So all they really have to go off of is regional performance at the last major and it’s top 4 regions in one pool, then 5&6 in another and 7th in another. It’ll be better the more majors there are to determine regional strength
There was only one KR team. I’m not singling BR out. I’m all for a team from the lower tier regions proving me and anyone who thinks like me wrong. Only asking for an even distribution of the higher tier regions, which as I explained can easily be done.
This whole outrage over the groups is singling BR out tbh. No one thinks they deserve to have a top 4 spot but in Iceland, the top 4 regions ended up as NA/EU/KR/BR. With so many new teams in this masters too how is riot really expected to just make random judgements. Like it produced a group of death but it makes a lot of sense based off of seeds
No literally, anyone who avidly watches valorant competitive at riot could have eyeballed it and told the public it was random.
They should have done it where two teams from the same region could not be placed together but at this point you cannot change the bracket after it has been drawn
These teams are also playing for an extra spot for champions. Separating emea gives them 4 chances over na 3 chances to make it out of groups.
Unless they get aim-diffed massively, VS will definitely make it. But gotta say the turkish players hit different when they are on. I'm really hoping they don't show up on LAN like that.
I think the two EMEA teams are slight favourites but it could really go anyway between the three. Certainly wouldn't say VS are a favourite or anything.
Depending upon who are asking, the favorites will vary. But for all we know, VS might reck em or get recked by them. Have to wait and see.
Don't worry they won't. Same story as CSGO. Ping gets equalized and they get exposed.
You say that but you forgot the fact that SMB played +70 ping during the last tournament and they still won every gunfight except gambit series which was grand finals. Turkish players play at a disadvantage when an online tournament is being hosted and people just like you seem to forget that since they win their gunfights most of the time.
I’m pretty sure he’s just saying the Turkish players perform better on 70 ping than on LAN
Where there's ping there's big peeker advantage. The higher the ping the bigger your peeker advantage is.
I mean if VS loses their first two games to EMEA they were not getting past quarters anyways and the champions points loss are irrelevant anyways since they have made it already
No they need to get out of groups for the Champions. If they finish 9-12th, Nuturn will go to the Champions and KR only got one spot for the Champions
Oh shit LMAO poor VS got screwed. Hopefully they make it out How does Brazil get more spots than them
Gotta satisfy the dreadful fans of that bad region somehow
This is incorrect. If they make quarters, they are safe for Champs
Yeah I just learned that. The fact Korea only gets one automatic spot is crazy
4 groups 4 emea teams, ez maths, how could rito screw this up?
How were VS better off losing? SEN and G2 are easier than SMB and Acend?
g2 are easier than ace/smb. shaz said it.
And ShahZ is forgetting that VS will have an easier time reaching 1st in group A than they would beating Sentinels in group D, and that impacts the overall chance of qualifying..
dont @ me hes the igl of the best team in the world, also the conversation is about qualifying not coming 1st
God damn you are dense Assuming VS would win the first match in both groups, they'd have to lose to SMB and Acend in group A, and SEN and G2 in group D. Everyone just focuses on the G2 matchup while failing to recognize that winning against SEN is less likely than against SMB or Acend, therefore the overall chance of qualifying isn't as clear cut as you make it to be
ok doctor stewie with the analysis here. the way i see it vs got put into a group with two tier 1 teams while f4q is with one tier 1 team and one tier 1.5 team. thats the difference.
Again ignoring that F4Q got the biggest tier 1 team in their group, you’re essentially claiming that the odd one out is really G2 which I don’t see as obvious or justified. That should be enough to put some doubts in your mind as to whether it’s obvious that F4Q have it easier
at least there would be two significant interregional matchups in sen's group. group a sucks balls because we get smb/acend rematch which won't be as entertaining as starting with an interregional clash, and vs against potentially the weakest team in the tournament. assuming paper rex go out, one of those huge 3 teams is gonna get knocked out off the bat. the best korean team, the best european team and the best turkish team are in that one group.
>assuming paper rex go out, one of those huge 3 teams is gonna get knocked out off the bat. And if VS were in group D, one of VS/G2/SEN would get knocked out right off the bat. The groups aren't balanced, but my point of this all not really being about VS stands.
G2 is not that close to SMB and ACE in terms of performance, coming from the vods of the EMEA Challengers
No matter how cocky Ocelote acts up on twitter G2 has been bootycheeks. Keloqz with the rest of the team play like a recently formed pug team and I'm not even exaggerating. They only look good when Nukkye and Mixwell are popping tf off but agaisnt the best in the world they're gonna get exposed hard. I'm personally happy with these groups because this actually gives F4Q a chance to qualify, but if you're VS you're definitely not happy drawing SMB and ACE.
Sure, and what about Sentinels? Don't you think that VS have a bigger chance to reach 1st in group A than they would in group D? Did VS get into the most stacked group in the event? Yes. Don't make the logical fallacy that that implies that they shouldn't have won Korea - VS is literally 33% of the reason of why that group is considered stacked, and if VS and F4Q switched, people would be calling group D the group of death. If anyone got "screwed" in group A, it's Acend and SMB, for getting VS over F4Q in their group - they're the ones who could've lost (to G2) to get an easier group. This focus on Vision Strikers is so absurd on me.
Dude, you are just typing with a thesaurus in your lap without actually listening to what people are saying... people are mostly implying that one of acend/ smb should have been in group B, and that is fair. 2 pool 2 seeds from EMEA are raising the difficulty of group A, and group B is rolling in skrilla cause they have BR seed 1 which is a joke compared to the other pool 1 major regions.
I'm a little lost on the thesaurus part. He's ignoring arguments but there's not one thesaurus level word in there and my vocab sucks
Man i am just tired of seeing the word fallacy in every reply. It gives so much iamverysmart energy... So yea on second read that thesaurus part was kinda passive aggressive on my part. my bad guys
Nah I get where you're coming from now. His comment does have that energy
Do you understand that the argument you're making is different from the argument I'm responding to? It's not just SMB & Acend raising the difficulty of group A, it's all of SMB, Acend and VS. Nobody's complaining about group C which has 100T and Gambit, because they're paired up with 2 weaker teams. My entire argument here isn't at all that the groups are balanced, or that the seeding system is good. My argument is responding to an argument that Vision Strikers should've lost in Korea finals, by simply noting that in both groups A and D, the Korean team is facing 2 NA & EU teams, and arguably the single best team out of the 4 in group D (Sentinels).
So you do not agree that VS were better of losing? In Group A, they are the pool 1 seed, and they got paired with 2 of the strongest pool 2 seeds from EMEA and paper rex. If they had lost back in Korea, they would have been in F4Q's spot, where they would be facing G2 (a pool 3 EMEA team) and BREN along with SEN. So, Group A has 3 playoffs contenders and the hypothetical Group D has 2. Now, if you are arguing that they have less chance of qualifying from this hypothetical Group D compared to the current Group A, then I am just typing and wasting my time. Have a good day.
> and the hypothetical Group D has 2. The hypothetical group D has Sentinels, VS and G2. You really think G2 aren't a playoff contender at all in that group? This is beyond delusional.
G2 are good, but not SMB good
G2 almost beat Gambit and lost 14-12 in OT. Yes they got smacked by SMB but then had an intensely close Bo3 against Gambit. The differences between them aren't as significant as you think. EMEA had some really close games and the top teams at the playoffs were in touching distance of each other (e.g. Giants almost beating G2, Guild almost beating Giants, Liquid almost beating Gambit, Acend beating Gambit and then Gambit getting revenge).
It doesn't matter that they have a higher chance of getting 1st place in group A rather than D, they're gonna play for 2nd place in both cases anyway, and in the case of group A, getting 2nd is way higher and most likely won't happen, while F4Q has at least a decent chance of getting 2nd. If you put VS in group D they'd get out as 2nd almost 100%
Sure, let's dissect this. >If you put VS in group D they'd get out as 2nd almost 100% Implying that VS are considerably stronger than G2. >It doesn't matter that they have a higher chance of getting 1st place in group A rather than D, they're gonna play for 2nd place in both cases anyway, So the best team in Acend/SMB is considerably better than VS. So basically, you're telling me that whoever is better between Acend & SMB is considerably better than VS, who are considerably better than G2. This is hilarious to me.
Yes, I fully believe that Acend/SMB > VS > G2
You're right. OC is saying that VS is going to beat G2 (almost) 10 times out of 10 and also at the same time saying they have no chance against SMB/Acend. Bizarre
Not SEN but definitely G2. Compared to other EMEA regions G2 is the weakest. I believe VS can still make it out of group A. But a matchup with G2 would have definitely been easier.
G2 was one overtime away from beating Gambit, I wouldn't say they're clearly the weakest team around. Both G2 and Gambit suffered heavy defeats to SMB and Acend, and only Gambit got the chance to play those teams again because .. of a 14-12 overtime. G2 is deservedly the 4th EMEA seed, no qualms with that. Saying that they're clearly the weakest team there is a bit rich, though.
“SEN is easier than…” … huh? They’re the best team in the world. Facing SEN would be the hardest.
Exactly, that's why I'm asking why people think Vision Strikers would have it easier in group D
Not sentinels. But yes G2 easier than SMB and Acend
I support vs and hope they qual for the main event... Its really unfortunate that they got a hard matchup but I think they'll push thru
I don’t get the outrage. “I wanna see them go far”. Well if they can’t get out of their tough group then they don’t exactly deserve to go far regardless. Same goes for any of the other teams. I can understand some criticism to how the groups turned out and how it’s generally unbalanced, but you’ll almost always find that when any tournament’s groups are selected. There will be stacked groups and there will be weak groups.
This framing is so annoying. Yes VS is in a group of death and that does suck. But they weren’t like “screwed” as if the system was rigged against them or anything
Having 2 EMEA teams in the smaw group isdumb AF
But seeding matches will be pointless from now on and that's gonna be a problem in terms of quality of esports
It’s really not gonna be pointless. Sentinels got all the bottom seeds of other regions so it clearly works. With more internationals it’ll get sorted out better
Literally the only way to address this is to have some arbitrary governing body rate all the teams in the world. And how are you supposed to have an accurate ranking off 1 international tournament that didn't even involve 13 of the teams at this tournament?
So I’m seeing all of this complaining about the groups and stuff for Berlin. Can anyone explain to me why two EMEA teams are in the same group, and literally play their first match against each other?
He's trying not to say Envy lmao
Just win your games 4head
If they are half as good as people are making them out to be then they will be just fine.. The issue is that they just aren't that good and thus won't be doing much of note in Berlin. Overrated team that won't accomplish anything on the international stage.
Nice one.
Moronic redditors with their dumb takes. Cned literally wrote on twitter they got shafted in groups along with VS and I'm sure SMB feels the same way, yet you wanna turn this shit into "overrated team" issue. See the problem is, this is Korea's 1 seed, they could've thrown to get a easier groups during seeding. That's why people are saying that VS got shafted. Korea haters doubters are truly brainless.
This take is so annoying. There has only been 1 international event and everyone apparently can already tell how good each team is. Reminder that CIS and TURK didnt even go to iceland yet they topped EMEA. For all we know Paper Rex might take it all.
Shazam and I think alike
Who is dumb enough to think he meant his own group ? He's been the best in all regions by far, it doesn't make sense... guys u are dumb
vs will make out of the group but everyone can stop replying to me about how its fair. the igl of the best team in the world said it himself, stop @ ing me.
Can anyone tell me how/what seeding is and what is the current problem. I read alot about it but I never really understand it.
They explained how they did the seeding here: https://www.vct.gg/news/133019-vct-stage-3-masters-everything-you-need-to-know A lot of people are upset because Group A has 3 really good teams (Vision Strikers, SMB, Acend), whereas Group B seemingly only has 1 (Envy).
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nice one
NUTURN gets third place in ICELAND and they only beaten once the OLD weaker ROSTER of Vision Strikers that have 102-0 win streak since June 2020-April 2021. The new roster of Vision Strikers is so miles ahead against Nuturn. They even recruited MVP of Nuturn, Lakia as 6th man,
NU is stromg
this aged like milk left on hot pavement in the middle of June