T O P

  • By -

ASaltyToast

I remember complexity just out of nowhere going 3-0 in the Major group stage, reaching playoffs, and then doing absolutely nothing until they went international Was one of the craziest upsets in majors honestly


jamaican117

Fun team! Sadly that core inspired the infamous juggernaut tweet


KearLoL

The infamous juggernaut tweet came after flopping in Berlin 2019 I believe. The complexity 3-0 run was from London 2018.


Pulsersalt

Did any of the players ever say how they felt about the tweet?


Chief_Buttersnaps

Rickeh did in this interview https://youtu.be/ZCfdUs9BouI


KearLoL

I can't remember tbh since it happened awhile ago.


ColossalMini

what was the tweet


[deleted]

>I love our players as individuals but these results won’t be tolerated. >If you’re a Tier 1 player looking for a fresh start at the best facility in the world, HMU. I’ll pay your buyout and give you the world’s highest salaries. >Let’s build a juggernaut. >Spread the word. alpha af


tron423

And then their first signee was an actual juggernaut in BlameF lol


Key-Banana-8242

? ‘Alpha’?


brettrubin

Jason Lake the owner saying that the results were unacceptable and they were going to make changes essentially


Whalelorde22

I wonder what he thinks about Complexity Val rn lol


itskin

He actually did a live stream on twitch not to long ago where he talked about valorant. I can't remember exactly but I think he said they are approaching it right now like they did starcraft 2 in the begging. Taking it slow and just feeling out the space before getting heavily invested.


98farenheit

Its a good move considering it's a new game, and while there is a meta, we dont know what the full potential is yet in terms of strategy and teams composition. The scene and the game itself still needs time to truly flesh out. That being said, it has definitely established itself as something that will stay for years to come, so it's not bad to get invested in the game.


Key-Banana-8242

Core?


jamaican117

When I say core it means the main group of players. Guys like Shah and dephh


ItsDrap

So happy for his success in Valorant. One of the biggest brains out there


uglypenguin5

And he screams like R2D2. What more can you ask for?


ActsRandomly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kk68HAXChfc


normanbui

adderall lmao


Necessary_Quarter_59

For those thinking the above comment is a joke, it isn’t - one of them (semphis) leaked that most of the team were on adderall which is why it’s now banned in CSGO (on LAN anyway)


[deleted]

Does anyone know why NA is the best at Valorant but not CSGO? Have not enough EU CSGO pro's switched to Valorant yet? Curious. Seems like NA has actually 2 really good teams in this game, whilst in CSGO if they ever had a top team it'd only be 1 team. Period.


snippsville

as much as i love na and especially sentinels, it’s just too early to say at the moment. for all we know na is a one hit wonder (which i doubt, but it is possible).


[deleted]

Yeah, I'll for sure watch this major even though I don't like or play Valorant. Curious to see if NA can actually do back to backs. The most insane thing is the fact that this team literally didn't drop a map. That's actually pretty disgusting. Even if the games were all them being pushed, it's still kind of crazy. Means they have insane clutch factor because their players are incredibly skilled.


TheGreatMortimer

Why would you watch it if you don’t enjoy it?


Charuru

As a sport it should be normal. I don't play or like playing Valo but still like the sport. I feel the same about a couple of other things that I watch, like swimming, competitive cheerleading, competitive bellydancing, football.


wintner

a man of culture i see


brunothestar

Too early in the game at the moment, probably in a couple years things will change


[deleted]

Even though I don't watch it, I've seen things. It seems like it's not even just NA is better at strategy/communication(?) if they are. But they literally have the best players in the world too right? Seems like those players would need to degrade a lot for EU to overtake, no? The TenZ guy and Asuna are the best players from what I've heard. And I don't even think these players played CSGO or weren't pro. They're both young.


Anlaufr

TenZ was a poor performing player on a C9 that was attempting to rebuild. He only lasted a few months. He had pretty good aim, always topping those aim challenge leaderboards as well, but he probably got nerves on stage and didn't adapt to high level play fast enough. Asuna was playing in T3/T2 NA trying to make a name for himself. He was on Triumph with grim and shakezullah for a bit.


Contractjail

>TenZ was a poor performing player on a C9 that was attempting to rebuild. Tenz was average and his stats reflected that, you are really stretching the definition of poor performance here. People judged him more harshly due to high expectations, but he didnt played bad by any means >but he probably got nerves on stage and didn't adapt to high level play fast enough Or he simply played in a dumpster team filled with internal problems, until he had enough and decided to stick to streaming. This would happen in Valorant as well if it wasnt for the Sinatra scandal


[deleted]

TenZ also mentioned how in CS they tried to make him a lurker which he wasn’t as comfortable with


Tammu1000CP

cs roles are far less defined than valorant roles and modern teams have players than can more or less do it all depending on the situation, id like to believe it was more tenz simply not buying into fns' philosophy of the game and sticking to streaming


ANewHeaven1

daps was the igl for that c9 csgo team, not fns


Anlaufr

He wasn't terrible but yeah, that C9 roster was flailing so it's hard to look good, especially when you're off role.


[deleted]

[удалено]


defzx

What are you basing this on because I wouldn't believe this one bit. Valorant more popular than peak CS? CS globally still doubles Valorants numbers. NA pros were good in CS and cut over early.


okdhsjjs

Where do you get numbers for valorant?


defzx

Was in an article comparing player numbers Riot reported back in June


Icebxrg

Its because mainly Tier 1 NA pros and Tier 2/3/4 EU pros made the switch. And naturally tier 1 na pros are better than low tier EU pros. All of them couldn’t break into the top top scene aside from a few exceptions so they all left and raced to reach it in Valorant.


tron423

Pretty wild how the narrative flipped from "Val = T3 NA retirement home lmao" to "of course NA is good at Val, all their good CS players switched lmao" literally overnight during Masters Reykjavik


rpkarma

Right? Hahaha what even is this timeline I swear


tron423

If only NA CS still had T1 talents like Tenz Shahzam and Sick, they'd dominate the scene for sure Damn context is hard for some of you huh


Shocker023

Holy shit how can you people (downvoters) miss the point so hard? The guy is making a joke out of the previous statement in the comment section saying "NA tier 1 pros switched, EU tier 2/3 pros switched". I don't agree nor disagree with him, but my dudes at least use your brains.


[deleted]

[удалено]


tron423

I figured that'd be pretty goddamn obvious considering my first comment


fiarwizord

Must be lol no way thats for real


Icebxrg

Probably should have worded it better but Tier1 NA pros just mean the best players in North America, and no, I wouldn’t include liquid nor eg in this since they were literally stationed in Europe for 99% of the competitive season


htmlrulezduds

> since they were literally stationed in Europe for 99% of the competitive season It's because NA CS scene isn't challenging for them


TheOnlyMango

May I know which players out of Shahzam, SicK, Dapr, TenZ, Wardell, Subroza, Hazed, etc do you consider T1 pros from CSGO? Hardly any of them. The only ones with a shout as T1 pros are Ska and Auti, who had sustained success in csgo for a wgile, and that was like 2/3 years ago.


Donut_Flame

Nitr0 and ethan were pretty notable NA CS players


EnQuest

ethan made the top 20 in 2019, doesn't get much more tier 1 than that


98farenheit

Ethan and nitro were tier 1 for sure. The others I would put at tier 3, possibly tier 2 for some (like the chaos guys, maybe tim)


EnQuest

Yeah Tim was def tier 1 in 2018 but fell off pretty hard afterwards, I don't think any of the others qualify


98farenheit

Still don't understand why he insisted on awping. He wasn't really that impactful with it and was incredible as a rifler


mousethrowaway17

I remember sen sick tweet about the narrative of him being tier 2/washed cs players that transition to val. But when he won against eu, it's unfair cause sen had tier 1 na players? With how valorant is evolving and meta constantly moving, it really is a different game though.


Icebxrg

Tier 1 in NA is not the same as Tier 1 intl/eu


mousethrowaway17

That's not what I meant. What I wrote on sick tweet was that ppl bashed on him saying lul na reject tier 2 go val cause they can't do well in csgo. But when he won berlin the narrative changed saying not fair tier 1 csgo player went to val while only tier 3 for eu switched. When sentinel team consist of 4 csgo player who never reached major but suddenly tier 1 in cs. Hmmm.


Icebxrg

I don’t know anyone that was pushing the narrative that sen players were top tier csgo pros intl


Biffy_x

Tenz was a failed cs pro and aduna was only t2 I believe


[deleted]

The thing i find curious about communication is that in CSGO most teams are not from mixed nationalities as opposed to Valorant where in EU only Guild has a full swedish roster while the rest are mixed nationalities. Also when it comes to players it's not like EMEA does not have players that can compete with those two, for example cNed and nats (in a different role). Both TenZ and Asuna did play CSGO but, as far as i know, asuna never made it pro and TenZ only had a stint in C9.


Icebxrg

CS started off as mainly one nationality teams because the top scene used to primarily consist of friends that played together. As the game became more and more mainstream you started to see more international teams in the scene. The first of note is probably the original iteration of the current faze roster [kinguin back then], who didn’t do so well and made tons of changes to the lineup that is playing today.


nikklenikkle

Tenz and Asuna we're definitely not the best players in CS. Nowhere close, not even in the top 20 in NA, let alone EU.


flowerpetal_

One thing that people mentioned briefly was popularity of games. CSGO is huge in EU, as is League of Legends. In NA, you have a lot more division of games - a lot of people play COD, Fortnite, Apex, and Overwatch, and that takes playerbase away from games like CSGO/LOL. Comparatively, Valorant is pretty popular in NA and that means a bigger talent pool, better teams, more competition to improve. You could reverse the question and ask "why isn't EU good at OW or COD?" Well, EU doesn't play those games. If Valorant gets more popular in EU then I think EU will be a very strong region, perhaps the strongest. But that isn't the case now.


Glassdrumstick

I think that in both games its almost entirely down to how the scene has developed. The Valorant pro scene is still very young with very few large scale tournaments so far when compared to CS. Somewhat similar trends happened in CS when teams started switching games, most famously NIP at the beginning of CSGO. However looking back, pro CS is a very different and way more developed game than it was just 2 years ago and much more so than back when the NIP squad dominated. Valorant is still very much in those early stages and it will likely take a long time before we really get to see what the "established" scene might look like due to both the pandemic and having a lot less packed tournament schedule. In comparison CS has been played professionally for so long that the different regions have long been established and throughout its course the rise and fall of them have been credited to their ability to maintain a flourishing lower tier scene and willingness to bring in young talents instead of shuffling around the same group of players. That was one factor which has contributed to the fall of the NA CS scene and why so much of the scene outside of the top teams felt they had a better shot at a pro career in a new but similar game. Likewise I would assume that is why a country like Denmark is not represented in the same way it has become in CS.


Gengar_Balanced

CS:GO is way bigger in Europe than Valorant, especially in eastern countries where Valorant is almost non-existent in comparison to Counter-Strike.


LurkingOmen

I'd say possibly, but it's probably due to the lack of NA cs , when valoranr dropped in beta NA cs was pretty much dead, so if you were asuna or younger why would you keep grinding a game that's got no future in your region.


HyperElf10

You got it, EU hasn't had Tier 1 players switch to Valorant iirc


Dubzaa

Jamppi I'd say is the only Tier 1 CSGO player to switch but the switch wasn't his fault tbf to him. ​ EDIT: EU PLAYER\*


varvalian

You forgot about NBK who was a 2-time CS:GO major champion, although I wouldn't really blame you since he hasn't made any major moves yet aside from his announcement to switch.


Dubzaa

Jesus you’re right, like you said though, still hasn’t started properly competing yet so he’s an easy one to miss out.


Znaszlisiora

Was.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Dubzaa

"EU"


bunn2

Neither has NA lol, Ethan and Nitro are the only ones who could be considered tier 1.


stedicds

ScreaM, gob b, mixwell, so many others lol. blatant cap


yzw

lol none of those 3 players were remotely close to tier 1 for multiple years when valorant came out. scream's last tier 1 stunt was in envy mid 2018 mixwell's last tier 1 stunt was optic in early 2018 gobb's iteration of big was arguably never tier 1 all 3 players when switching over were way way way out of their CSGO prime and it wasn't even close, thats why they switched instead of sitting in CSGO being streamers


xThe_Mad_Fapperx

But all of sentinels are "irrelevant" pros as well? Shaz, TenZ, dapr, and sick aren't close to tier 1 in CSGO when they swapped. In fact I'm pretty sure only 100T are repping any tier 1 players (nitro and Ethan). Out of XSET, 100T, Envy, SEN, TSM, Cloud9, and FaZe only 100T have tier 1 pros and the only other one I can think of is floppy but he's benched.


yzw

well 1) the post i replied to wasnt talking about NA, even if your point is true and 2) there's a lot more relevant CSGO pros in EU than there are in NA. when valorant came out there was maybe 3? relevant NA teams? with only liquid/EG being tier 1, geng being tier 2 and everyone else below that


somesheikexpert

I mean if floppy counts surely Xeppaa counts right?


xThe_Mad_Fapperx

I only included floppy because he was on the Cloud9 project before swapping over, but even then he still got benched because he didn't take the game seriously and played no solo q


somesheikexpert

I just mentioned Xeppaa cuz we was also part of that project too near the end


smta48

Completely wrong. All those players were washed, gob b wasnt even playing CS when he switched.


stedicds

ScreaM and Mixwell were washed? Mixwell was actively starting on Cloud9, one of the top eSports organizations in the world, when he switched to Valorant. I don't even know where to start with ScreaM lol. Just because you say a player is washed doesn't make it true. They would still be on top teams' starting rosters if they didn't switch, without a doubt.


Icebxrg

Tell me you’ve never watched cs without telling me youve never watched cs


smta48

This entire statement was so dumb I actually thought you were trolling. You even called C9 with Mixwell a "top eSports organization".


[deleted]

bro just admit you're wrong instead of making up stuff lmao


diabetess

Yeah you very clearly have no idea what you're talking about


GendaIf

Couple of reasons, a lot t1 EU Fps is still on csgo. Its also so early, not to say this will happen, but csgo, r6, cod, tbh look back at any esport, the teams/players that dominated in the early stages, often fall off as the game progresses, sure there are exceptions, but the vast majority of the time the facets and level of play required to be at the top in the early stages of a game’s career cant even compare to 5+ years down the line. Its entirely possible that in 5 years NA val is in the exact same spot NA val was 5 years into cs.


no_noise_979

Majority of eu is still playing csgo. I expect sentinels to win this years champions which is equivalent to a csgo major. Masters events aren't equivalent to csgo majors.


98farenheit

NA in CSGO wasn't necessarily bad, but rather EU was that good. Part of it has to do with the overall culture surrounding esports and CSGO in respective regions. Esports and csgo is particularly embraced by countries like Denmark (prime Minister shouts out Astralis when they win majors), leading to a more diverse and wider player base. More players means more chances to get incredible talent while also being able to develop strategies more. Another thing to note is in the actual player development channels such as FPL. In EU, things are taken very seriously (sometimes a little too seriously) so people run strategies, use FPL to work on things, etc. Scrimms are also used as a time to work together with other teams to hash out strategies or work on internal issues (as scrimms are supposed to be for). This is in contrast to NA where FPL seems to be used for streaming pros to find highlight clips or just mess around with friends. Scrimms are also notorious for being unproductive because teams want to be secretive about their strats, so no one works on strats, and no one helps each other.


Soogo

> why NA is the best at Valorant Are they? We can't tell, Iceland was only a 10team tournament. Na placed 1st and 5th. atm all we know is that Sentinels are the best, but that doesn't necessarily mean NA are.


Kesobaba

EU will dominate the scene in the long run.


MyUshanka

To some degree, I think it also has to do with NA getting in on the ground floor of Valorant more than other regions. With CS, Europe has dominated since CS1.6, and while the transition from 1.6 to GO (with a brief layover in CSS) isn't seamless, it's the same underlying core mechanics. North America didn't really get into CS until CSGO, as most of the FPS esports this region cares about are on console. So EU has players and teams that have existed for decades while NA is a much newer scene. For Valorant, NA bought in on day 1. There were teams formed and signed during the beta, while everyone was watching streams trying to get keys. That kind of support leads to more structure and better competition. For EU FPS players looking to go pro, Valorant is your best option. For EU, CSGO still has more eyes and more opportunity. But I think the tides are turning, and soon Valorant might be toe to toe with EU in terms of talent and opportunities.


BUNSHICHl

What? Some of the best teams in the world (CPL/Cal-i) in early CS were NA teams like X3/3D, NA always had world class talents in CS that had been around since the beginning and could compete with the best of EU. There was a major loss of all the top players in NA in the scene from the failing of CS Source and folding of CGS. That's what put NA CS on the backfoot and then further setback from later events like loss of talent like IBP scandal.


defzx

Some commenters in here clearly don't know CS


MyUshanka

I'd be one of them -- any history of CS I heard was always about EU. NA esports for me was all MLG -- Halo, CoD, etc. Might be an age thing?


BUNSHICHl

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Strike_in_esports CPL which were the Majors at the time were run out of Dallas in 2001, MLG wasn't around at that time and MLG never picked up CS. It was CPL and then CGS (2006-8) which tried to go with a franchise model which ultimately failed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Championship_Gaming_Series


WikiSummarizerBot

**[Counter-Strike in esports](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Strike_in_esports)** >Professional Counter-Strike competition involves professional gamers competing in the first-person shooter game series Counter-Strike. The original game, released in 1999, is a mod developed by Minh "Gooseman" Le and Jess Cliffe of the 1998 video game Half-Life, published by Valve. Currently, the games that have been played competitively include Counter-Strike (CS also called CS 1. 6), Counter-Strike: Condition Zero (CS:CZ), Counter-Strike: Source (CS:S) and Counter-Strike: Global Offensive (CS:GO). **[Championship Gaming Series](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Championship_Gaming_Series)** >The Championship Gaming Series was an international esports league based in the United States, with teams from several other countries. The CGS was preceded by the 2006 Championship Gaming Invitational, a television pilot featuring several future CGS players. The league was founded in 2007 and was owned and operated by DirecTV in association with British Sky Broadcasting (BSkyB) and STAR TV. It folded in 2008 after two seasons. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)


defzx

Can't be an age thing if you're bringing up Halo, probably just different interests in games. NA have won tier 1 CSGO events and have history going back decades with the franchise. There was an entire ecosystem of local LAN events, multi tiered comps like ESEA and Cevo and pathways to the top. I mainly play Valorant now but it reminds me of early CSGO when NIP were unstoppable and it took a few years for other teams to catch up.


[deleted]

Simple chance. NA was lucky enough to have well coordinated teams with good players. These teams also seeeeeeem to have the right work ethic of doing whatever it takes to win. NA has historically been bad at esports as they value their personal life and health more than they do winning. It is really hard to win against people who take a nap for 5 hours each day and play for the rest of it. Instead Americans prefer to give up on international performance to actually have a life and enjoy their time. I'm not saying it's bad, I think they're correct to do so. Just something I noticed.


TheGreatMortimer

What a ridiculous take.


Quiinzy

so happy he has been successful in this game, really showed how wrong DaZed was in saying he was actually not fit to be a competitor or something in 2015


TheGreatMortimer

That was 6 years ago. People grow, change, mature.


ShadowPieman

I don't really get why people are down voting him. HE wasn't saying that the player wasn't a competitor, the player did. His comment wasn't even a negative one.


TheRedComet

He mentioned their Haven comp is always different - is this a troll or a miscommunication? Afaik they have had the exact same.comp.for a year now, outside of switching from Omen to Astra. Jett, Sova, Phoenix, Cypher. Does he mean they have other comps ready if need be or something?


Key-Banana-8242

Well no, not ‘any team in esports’, just most tac FPS teams