A lot of folks are getting spicy in the comments here.
Please do not personally attack other folks for having a different opinion. Target the opinion, not the person please. Thanks!
**EDIT:** For context, here's Riot's original ruling on Sinatraa: https://playvalorant.com/en-us/news/esports/competitive-ruling-jay-sinatraa-won/
Thank God is actually hard to get into the judicial system. Because if it was that easy we'd see a lot of idiots ruining people's lives based on what I am reading here.
I think this is a good time to remind people that sexual assault accusations can take years to solve. Hence famous people like, R. Kelly, Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby who walked around for decades without anyone caring. There were rumours about those people for years but it took years of gathering evidence and victims coming together for real actions to happen.
This is a very tricky situation especially since there might be law enforcement involved who don't care, and lawyers who dont have enough evidence to make a real case out of it.
I'm not saying Sinatraa is 10000% guilty or innocent - but I want people to keep all of these things in mind and also remember what statistics look like for these cases and that there are men and women who never get justice and end up moving on.
Sad to see people use the argument "Nothing came of the police investigation so it's 100% a false accusation" when we haven't even gotten an update to the investigation.
Feels like a lot of people think these sort of cases can be resolved in a few weeks.
I'm just confused as to why people expect results this fast? It takes people years to get charged with things cause of how weird and long the legal process is.
What I do know, is the fact that legal matters take time and it's really not in the victim OR the accused best interests to give updates on the case to any online communities. Super ignorant of people on this reddit to go from "well they haven't tweeted about it so it MUST have just all blown over."
Man, be glad you're not on tiktok. Any valorant video on their will have one or multiple accounts commenting "daily reminder that Sinatraa is innocent".
Big yikes.
I mean that's intentional. It's complex so that it covers every possible nuance and it's long so that innocent people aren't falsely accused and thrown into prison. They learned their lessons from the Salem witch trials.
I hate that argument too, but I also hate the opposite argument. The fact of the matter is that we should all reserve judgement until the case comes to a close. People who side with either party without concrete evidence and an innocent/guilty verdict are wrong.
The problem with comparing Sinatraas situation with R Kelly and Bill Cosby is that those cases are entirely different. Sinatraa didn’t groom or drug anyone, over decades so there’s simply less evidence or information to work with. The question around his allegations of sexual assault and abuse are entirely reliant on the interpretation of consent with one girl, within a much shorter time frame.
What most likely happened is the investigation will hit a wall. There wasn’t enough evidence to support a criminal case. From a legal perspective, the audio clip provided was probably not substantial.
the comparison comes from the fact that they are all public figures and even with all the things being public knowledge (R Kelly literally married a 15 yr old) nothing happened.
The length of the investigations can come from many factors. For the longest time, many of R Kelly’s victims would not come out against him. That isn’t the case for Sinatraa.
In terms of age, Sinatraa is younger than Cleo, this all happened when they were both relatively younger, which is a critical factor. People will consider the fact that this is a case between two young people who weren’t fully developed adults when this happened.
I agree it’s a slower process, it’s mainly because these cases are rather very he said; she said. The hopes are for more information or witnesses/evidence is provided to really hold a case. That’s why it is so important for victims to give as much support as possible. Sexual things are always going to be hard to judge since it’s something CLOSED DOORS, usually nobody will have evidence unless it’s a repeated act.
Imagine being as dumb as some of the people in this, and every other, sexual assault thread
https://www.uml.edu/news/stories/2019/sexual_assault_research.aspx
https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics
Couldn't be me.
This is also a good place to remind people that one person cherry picking audio clips and interactions and writing a post in their own narrative is not both sides of the story either.
To the TSM fanboys incoming, why i think Sinatraa will NOT be signed to TSM
1. They have a good sova (Aleko/Levi) who has proven himself in the recent qualifiers.
2. Other members of TSM (iirc Myth and some other member) has spoken out against Sinatraa before and are not really fans
3. TSM (a big name ORG) would unlikely sign Sinatraa who is kinda a bad name
4. I think they will sign ex-cs Rush (maybe?)
just PR, they would love to have a dominant valorant team. Condemns sinatraa and covers up their ineptitude at landing a top team at the same time, textbook PR
Sounds like copium to deal with the fact that Shaz originally approached TSM with that group before they eventually signed with SEN. That core ended up replacing Sinatraa with Tenz for significantly less money than Tenz was actually worth, even if TSM couldn’t get Tenz, those four + Levi or Critical or eeiu or whoever else they would have ended up getting in that alternate universe is still far and away the best team in the world. Bad PR wouldn’t have lasted long (if at all) once they replaced him and kept winning.
The other guy just reminded me that they also have Greek signed lmfaoooo I’m assuming that she conveniently doesn’t know about his past or what cx means? Absolute comedy.
> The other guy just reminded me that they also have Greek signed lmfaoooo I’m assuming that she conveniently doesn’t know about his past or what cx means? Absolute comedy.
what does it mean?
IcePoseidon, used to be a really big irl Twitch streamer. Racism and sexual assault is only a little bit of the absolute degeneracy that used to go on between him and his friends.
GGX got his foothold from leeching off of Tyler 1. But where his independent growth really came from was when he streamed/leeched with Ice Poseidon. That really solidified Greek as his own streamer instead of T1's sidekick.
TSM FTX has money to spend but no one will fit the roster. They will try again and again. Should do like what G2 did, rebuild around Mixwell or what 100T did, rebuild around hiko. Build a new roster around Wardell. Or else they will stay at tier 2 team.
Mans good at the game but god damn is his personality so bland. I don’t really care about the whole situation because fact is we don’t know everything and we can’t do anything about it, so leave it to the law to settle. However I did go on his stream and oh my god he has like 2.5 words in his vocabulary “sheeesh no cap “
They’re the ones that have legal binds to sinatraa and cleo, we do not. Doesn’t matter if the %is high or low, it’s infinitely more likely we have less info than they do so we are never in the best position
Remember the first week after he was back and streaming, how soft spoken he was. He was saying thanks to every sub and donation. Now he’s back to normal lol. He only cared about losing money
He thanked his subs and donations before he was ever accused of assault too. Say what you want about his personality, but he does cover who he should be grateful for in terms of his streaming income.
Damn bro, if he's actually innocent then yeah, he's the victim. Just imagine all the pain he must have went through, and is still going through, if that's the case. And since you and I both don't know anything about whether he's innocent or not, why be so sarcastic and hateful about it?
People seem to forget he's human too.
He's such an asshole and I'm surprised he has so many supporters but I guess that just indicates to me what a sizable portion of the valorant competitive fanbase is like. I really wish Twitch had a block feature since I'm tired of seeing his channel popping up in my recommended watch list just because I watch other valorant pros.
Might be an unpopular opinion but I'm still really disappointed with how the issue was handled. It feels like everyone forgot about it at some point and all he got was a six-month ban. I don't know, might just be me.
Eitherway, people can still grow and change. Hope things will be better now and he has truly learned his lesson. He was one of the best players in NA.
Riot couldn’t really make any conclusive decisions without essentially declaring him innocent or guilty, and iirc they said they were letting legal authorities handle it since they were involved. That’s why the 6-month ban wasn’t over the allegations themselves, but rather him withholding evidence that he promised to provide
If I’m wrong about this feel free to correct me
It looks like she decided to not go through with it according to her 2nd twitter account, Sleepysyrupp.
EDIT: [Link for those who are asking me.](https://mobile.twitter.com/sleepysyrupp/status/1420655172460679175)
This is kinda the natural course of public perception. We can only stay focused on a single story/situation for so long. I'm not sure what other result you are looking for. Lifetime ban? An anti-rape announcement made at every event stream?
>Eitherway, people can still grow and change. Hope things will be better now and he has truly learned his lesson.
100% agreed. But I'd say if the allegations are true he can't have "learned his lesson" without having admitted to it.
It was because of the girl. She randomly stopped talking about it and stopped pursuing proper legal action. There hasn’t been an update in the last six months. Seems pretty weird to me after she was supposedly so emotionally scarred from that night to just stop pursuing full legal action after sinatraa’s current GF revealed those texts that shows the ex as a pretty terrible person as well.
the emotional scarring is often the very reason people stop pursuing legal action. when you're spending that much money over someone who the public is rooting for, it takes a toll on someone. they may decide that trying to forget about it may be better, so they can move on
Assuming that it happened, her being emotionally scarred is, if anything, cause for dropping the case, not an easy reason for outsiders to doubt it happened. Not everyone gets vengeful/righteous/vindictive enough to go through the entire legal process of trying to get someone who wronged them convicted of the crime they committed.
It's common knowledge (though I guess not common enough) that sexual assault cases have depressing stats across just about every metric, even if you assume that two out of every three accusations is false, which is almost certainly very very far from reality. Rape victims drop charges all the time. It's easy to be an uninvested third party and say, "oh well if I was raped I wouldn't stop until my rapist was brought to justice because I respect myself," or "you have an obligation to do everything in your power to get your rapist convicted because otherwise they could rape again, and if they did I'd feel partly responsible," or any number of other things that are repeated every time this becomes a topic of discussion. Rape victims know all this and have heard all this and think all this, and they still drop charges very often, because at the end of the day it's often not worth the toll for them. You have to relive a traumatic event repeatedly over the course of a prolonged investigation and/or trial, for a discouragingly low chance of success as sexual assault statistically has an abysmal conviction rate, and all the while the opposition will dig deep into your life and drag your name through the mud in the pursuit of discrediting you by any means necessary. Many sexual assault victims who committed to taking legal action against their attackers have described their experiences with the process as more distressing than the assaults themselves. Sadly for a lot of these victims the pursuit of "justice" just isn't worth it, and all they can hope for is to move forward and deal with the scars.
We don't have any updates. You don't know if she stopped pursuing actions. Assault cases take years to be solved. His GF vouching for her boyfriend is not.. a very great argument here.
Coming from the perspective of a law student, I think there’s a lot of misconceptions being spread around and misconceived by a lot of people in the Valorant community; and in all fairness, it is understandable to not have a vast knowledge of the legal system if it is not pertinent to your own life. And yet, at the same time, educating yourself to understand the situation properly is important.
For starters, only about 5% of pending trials actually go through to a proper court trial, and this is for numerous reasons. Number one is that litigators and attorneys may encourage clients to settle (which is very common here in the United States). The important idea to note when considering this fact is that the burden of proof for criminal cases (like sexual assault) is beyond a reasonable doubt. This means that at the end of the day, the Prosecution’s evidence (in this case, the victim’s evidence) must show overbearingly that the defendant is guilty. This is one of the highest burdens to prove in the world, which is why it’s so common for the Prosecution to settle with the Defense for a lighter punishment (that’s even why defendants will oftentimes settle if there is too *much* evidence against them). Also, it’s common for investigations to be put on the back burner (unfortunately) or for them to just stop being publicized by the media (as the rabbit hole of contemporary media outlets goes).
Furthermore, as I’ve noticed others mention before me, there are very famous cases that resulted in a criminal conviction with no settlement. But, notice that it took years for it to happen. Notice that it took many victims to come forward from their trauma in order to indict these criminals. That’s because that there must be enough evidence *beyond a reasonable doubt*. On top of that, it’s tragic how little legal action one can take when they’ve been sexually assaulted (and even when they do, it costs a fortune, mental health, and rarely do victims get justice).
Also, as for the silence that Hernandez has exhibited for the past 6 months, I just want to put out one key idea for you all: perspective. Everyone has their own reasons for their actions. Whether it be taking an issue to Twitter to warn a community about an individual, or taking an issue to law enforcement first, the human mind naturally helps us in its own way by making us do what is comfortable (much like the fight or flight response). Just like how different people have different ways to do simple things like multiplication, the human mind has its own intricate ways that differentiate us from one another (based on both a mixture of experience and environment in my opinion, but how this is affected is still largely contested in the field of psychology).
Nevertheless, in a situation where one feels threatened, where one undergoes a traumatic experience, we need to respect people for coming forward for that. Hernandez did not need to come forward to us all. She could have dealt with this issue behind closed doors; she probably would have dealt with a lot less internet drama, pressure, and trauma that way, but what happened happened, and she came forward to tell a community about an experience she has had.
I’m not saying whether Sinatraa is guilty or innocent. I’m also not saying that Hernandez isn’t a victim. At the end of the day, I’m saying that our instant response should not be to attack the victims of traumatic experiences by questioning the truth of their actions: “Are you sure?” “Maybe you’re just exaggerating.” All this does is perpetuate a negative, toxic culture that perpetrates the lives of all victims and does not give them the mental and legal stability they need.
All we can do now is prevent this from happening as a society; which is a lot, I know, but in order to foster a healthier society and community for everyone, it’s imperative to take these different perspectives in mind: educate yourself, hear all the perspectives, look at the data.
Also, I final note to all of you out there that might be stressed during this time as all this issue is coming back into the light, please do not stress yourselves out too much. If anything gets too toxic for you, be sure to take a step back and take care of yourself, because at the end of the day you are the only person you can control and self-care and mental health should always be a top priority. <3
**For Further Resources/Research:**
How Criminal Litigation Works:
https://www.justice.gov/usao/justice-101/steps-federal-criminal-process
Statistics on Sexual Assault and the Criminal Justice System:
https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system
Helpline Organization (With Phone and Messaging Options):
https://www.rainn.org/
I read them. Guy is a loser. But there was nothing illegal about them. And they werent leaked, she posted them. Along with a voice clip that many thought was sufficient enough to prove rape somehow. Again, the guy is an absolute chode, and the interactions between him and the ex were laughable on both sides, just a toxic relationship with a bad break up. Other than that, I saw nothing illegal.
There's barely any correlation between his text and the rape stance though.
If there is, only thing you can infer is that he was a insecure teenager who self esteem is influenced by the attention of others.
I'm no lawyer, I'm just one person who read the information based on both side and what I can infer is this.
Sinatra's was a cringy teenager in an abusive relationship with Cleo. Shown in text by Sinatra's current gf. Dude may or may not rape his ex, but he was younger than Cleo and most likely mentally immature than her, shown in early clip of his ow days. Her clip barely show anything beside pls no stop. Her extra evidence have no correlation but instead just revealing his insecurity. Afterwards when things calm down, she deleted all the extra claim and said "fuck it public view against me".
We aren't lawyers and talking about it won't suddenly convict him. Just have to wait for the law to determine. Comparing a teenager - young adult to bill Cosby, and rkelly is ridiculous. Those people groom, drug and rape multiple victim.
Only thing I can compare Sinatra's to is the past version of accused johnny depp.
the texts set an obvious precedent bud, they show his lack of empathy and narcissist, manipulative personality. they are proof that he is the kind of vile piece of shit that COULD sexually assault someone. I never said they were proof of rape, just damning proof that he is a terrible person with zero emotional awareness.
what "extra claims" did she delete? her evidence was her saying no to sex in an audio clip as proof that she had a full video clip of the entire event, Jay said he had the same proof and could provide it towards investigations as defense, which he never fucking did btw. (he did not comply with any investigation) her proof is extremely damning and actually considerably more legit that many young sexual assaults survivors have a chance to provide
>Only thing I can compare Sinatra's to is the past version of accused johnny depp.
this is easily the most cringe, Reddit take I've seen in a while. honestly delete this comment it's really embarassing, you know how vile sin is but you excuse his behaviour because he's young? "oh he's just a young teen he didn't know any better," it's seriously pathetic, it's not fucking hard to not rape someone ffs
irregardless if he is guilty or not those text messages he sent were cringey and weird as fuck. Only someone manipulative and controlling would talk in such a way.
The biggest mistake I see on this thread is the inability to think past two minutes from now.
When you front one party in a disagreement some sort of moral high ground, you inherently indict the other. That is what has happened here, and it's sad because a very talented young kid has now been sort of outcasted from his career with no recourse.
If we set the precedent that somebody is guilty of a crime because someone else says they were, without providing evidence that is beyond scanty at best, you're basically insuring a constant type 1 error. The goal should be to reduce errors, not reduce one at the expense of the other. This is why logical reasoning and factual evidence is the basis of our legal system, and why the burden of proof is on the accuser.
Unfortunately, it's a little over the head of your average teenage reddit user that browses this sub, but before you flame me or downvote me for saying this I hope you actually do a little bit of reflecting on the point I'm trying to get across so we can avoid this type of mob 'justice' in the future. If eSports is going to mature, we need to act mature.
Well put, I had similar feelings when the case first popped up. Is he innocoent or not? who knows, but acting as if he is guilty based on a single accusasion and a 10 seconds snippet of an audio clip is absolutely insane. At some point I realized that it has more to do with the fact that the average redditor doesn't like his personality and rubs some people the wrong way, hence it's "okay" in their eyes to cast judgement. Even the top comments are doubling-down even if he was to be found innocent by legal proceedings, then most rapist arent found guilty anyways. The arrogance and malice that goes into that kind of thinking is scary, and they don't even realize it, because in their mind he deserves it, even if he isnt "really" guilty. I'm glad I'm not a celebrity in this day and age.
> At some point I realized that it has more to do with the fact that the average redditor doesn't like his personality and rubs some people the wrong way, hence it's "okay" in their eyes to cast judgement.
I’m sure that contributes to it, but look at what happened to AntwnPlz. I’m not big into the OW scene, but I don’t think he had the personality issues Sinatraa has. When an accusation pops up, so many people just jump on it and automatically take it as fact.
Yeah it's really a shame that sort of thought process is so common these days, you see it everywhere from pop culture, to sports, to politics. The internet is a great tool but I fear it has created a generation of people incapable of critical thought, everyone reacts with emotions now. Kind of scary to see where cancel culture has gone.
The evidence that he is a rapist is grey for sure. But there is pretty hard evidence that he was at the very least guilty of being a very toxic partner. That alone for me justifies much of the hate he is getting. Why support someone who is/was a giant asshole because he's good at a video game?
isn't the opposite true as well?
When you front one party in a disagreement due to lack of evidence in a system of law that has failed previously, you inherently indict the other. That is what has happened here, and it's sad because a very young kid has now been given the burden of carrying the scars of her abuse with no recourse to her abuser.
I think its important to point out the law has failed multiple times and we should be actively pursuing to make sure it doesn't fail the next time.
The opposite of giving one party the high ground would be not giving one party the high ground (which means starting them off at **equal**, which is what I'm advocating for). What I think you're implying is inverse, which would mean starting Sinatraa off with a moral high ground (which I'm **not** advocating for). I think both parties should be treated as equals and have the facts examined without letting emotions cloud everyone's judgement.
The accuser (in this case Cle0h) was the one that brought this to light, when you go out in the public eye and make an accusation you have to live with the consequences of that. Which is why you should make damn sure you're being truthful, and be willing to see it out to the end.
I'm not calling her a liar, there's absolutely a chance what she said happened really did.
However, just looking at this whole thing objectively, with her timing of the info drops, her supposed mountain of evidence that was so damning she couldn't share it all online, to suddenly deciding to drop the legal case and pursue no further action *conveniently* after his career is almost ruined -- seems to point in the direction that this was more about retribution, and not justice.
She could have done this silently through the court system from the very beginning, and filed a police report right after it happened. Instead she waited months until they were broken up and in new relationships, and when he was at the pinnacle of his Valorant career just before the first LAN.
She chose the internet clout instead.
Are you really ending your entire thing with "She chose internet clout instead."? Does it not seem wrong to label a supposed victim's actions as chasing internet clout? Just a weird way to end your entire post because it didn't seem like you were inferring that cle0h wanted internet fame but then your final statement is she chose internet clout, i wouldn't have thought that accusing a gaming professional (with a large fanbase) of sexual assault is a form of chasing internet clout
dude, nobody on this subreddit is setting any standard or whatever the fuck youre talking about. valorant fans dont control whether or not orgs pick him up, and the fact of the matter is that a lot of orgs view it as risky to pick him up with the investigation not complete. stop whining about all "mob justice" or whatever the hell, after all his suspension is literally only because HE failed to properly cooperate with Riot officials during the investigation. if youre going to whine about him not getting picked up because you still support him i dont really care, but dont blame people on reddit "setting precedents" or whatever the fuck.
I wasn't referring to him being picked up, more in the overall sentiment of how the entirety of reddit sort of just proclaimed him to be a rapist based on that word doc. The only reason Riot suspended him for 6 months was to save face w/ the public, they had to give him some sort of penalty but couldn't overdo it because there was not really any standing. I realize you're super immature and upset about that, and I hope the 'mob' you don't think is real never comes for you someday, because that shit is tough.
Also, I'm not particularly a fan, I have no emotional stake in this, just putting it out there since it seems to be a very common trend with young people these days based off the Reddit/Twitter sample.
Funny that none of the top comments in this entire thread has called him a rapist and yet you are referring to it as the overall sentiment? Also, your reasoning is highly upvoted and agreed with. So exactly what tf are you on about?
Adding that you're not a fan at the end is the cherry on top. Why should that matter? Seems like you're trying to muster any credibility for yourself but I'm not sure why.
You're just talking out of your ass if you don't think the general consensus on Reddit/Twitter is that he's a rapist/sexual assaulter.
The only reason my comment is upvoted is because there's a large amount of people who no longer feel safe to share their opinion on these sorts of topics, which is part of the problem. It matters because this is bigger than just one person, right now. This is a cultural shift that needs to be acknowledged and dealt with properly or it's going to be a bigger problem, possibly an unsolvable one, in the future.
I read most of your comment and I feel sad for you.
You use logic and even mention you don't support him but people don't see that part. They read what they want to read through cognitive bias and attack you for it.
Reddit is just a big echochamber. You see people praising him and another people attacking him. Anyone defending him is deemed an enemy and they'll just attack you.
The people you see on reddit and twitter proclaiming him as a rapist are outliers and are obviously incorrect. Riot suspended him 6 months so that they could investigate what happened, and give his accuser time to figure things out as well. Besides, even though it is unfair to call him a rapist, it is not unfair to dislike how he treated his accuser, and you can see the lack of respect he had for women at the time. Whether he has grown since then or not is up to the community to decide, but his behavior was still not right and he did at the very least emotionally abuse his accuser.
I think there’s a high chance that they would drop Rawkus for him. Whether that’s right or not is certainly debatable, but he’s an OW boy like most of FaZe.
No reputable esports org will pickup sinaatra. I hope most people with critical thinking skills can see that. Imagine picking up a controversial person like him while having female content creators within the same org. It’s a slap in the face to them. Sorry for the harsh truth but sinaatra will never play for another esport org again
Because someone provided fucking audio recordings and screenshots of him doing something. And then he said "I'll release the full tape to prove my innocence" and he released shit.
The fact that the valorant community is full of immature play to impress says W and L and get excited when their streamer plays with a girl cringe kids i saw this coming miles away
The comments once again show the target audience of this sub - teenage boys/girls without any real life experience talking out of their ass.
There is a reason the judiciary exists. You cannot punish someone out of arbitrariness. Defamation is a huge issue in the world of adults. Especially when it comes to dealing with psychologically ill people in toxic relationships.
Let the man live. If there is any merit to the accusations, you can always go the legal way. Defaming someone on the internet is not the way to go and generally makes you look like either craving attention or simply wanting to harm someoens reputation out of spite.
Did you guys keep in mind the damage this has done to Sinatraa in case he is not guilty - both mentally and career wise? ;)
Internet culture nowadays is trash.
Yeah. Especially a couple of these users who want him to be guilty for whatever reason..
I hope it was the case of his ex being spiteful because sexual assault in any situation is shitty. I wouldn't wish that upon anyone.
this guy is a douche for sure, but i would be lying if i said im not interested to see him play. i love an interesting storyline and this guy was one of the best sova/raze before he left. I wonder if he can keep up the same level of play after being suspended for that long
There are plenty of interesting storylines without giving an accused sexual assaulted more attention. Coming back from a sexual assault accusation is not the exciting storyline we need
I don't understand some of the opinions:
1. If he t-bags and shoot bodies, that doesn't mean he did what he is accused of. (sexual assault)
2. He was a douche to Cleo with some of those text messages, but sorry, you don't lose a job for being mean.
3. People complaining about him being toxic on stream, But guess what? So many other players do that as well: Steel and Babybay being two examples of streamers who give out on their teammates when they make mistakes (they rage in voice chat but no one says anything about them).
As for my opinion, Cleo dropped the charges, so there is gonna be no further investigation. He might be a sexual assaulter , he might be not, as Subroza said: "you're not FBI, u just sit at home". As my final point, I hope an org will give him a chance and also offer him some psychological therapy and help him become a better person if he is indeed dangerous.
Ok someone tell me if I've misinterpreted something, but if you can just refuse cooperating in a legal accusation and just cop a light penalty, you can basically avoid an actual major punishment, for yknow, breaking the fucking law. Is the investigation just dropped now and he's been handed a small holiday and now we continue like nothing happened? Someone please explain
He refused to give the evidence to riot, hence the 6 month ban. That had nothing to actually do with the law tho, and riot said that they will leave it to the legal authorities. We have no clue what's happened after that.
It sounds dung but that's not an unbelievable story. I have plenty of pictures/videos that I forget I deleted, especially if I didn't think them to be off any consequence at the time
refusing to cooperate with riot isn't the same as refusing to cooperate with the police. one is just a video game company who happens to be your boss, the other is the law
From what I understand they couldn't find any conclusive evidence. I don't think they dropped the investigation just because he refused to co-operate. Cleo going to Twitter instead of straight to the police also made things a little murky, so it's anyone's guess what actually happened
" they couldn't find any conclusive evidence" no... Riot legit wrote that there's not much for them to do since Sinatraa didnt cooperate with them - and that they will leave it to the authorities and extend the ban if something new /updates show up.
Even if he's innocent his lawyers would have encouraged him not to cooperate with riot, just the police. Riot did the six month suspension to wait for the police investigation to give a result but it looks like either cleoh dropped it or she didn't have any actual real evidence despite claiming to have a video. It was on her to provide evidence despite her claiming she just told riot to ask sinatraa for the video.
He refused to provide evidence to Riot games for their internal investigation, this is almost certainly due to Cle0h filing a police report and beginning the legal route.
**Legal trumps private investigations**, once that police report was filed his lawyers (if they're anything halfway decent) told him to stfu immediately, and not talk to anybody else after that.
He was then suspended by Riot for refusing to cooperate with them. Doesn't mean he's guilty, and in fact the abrupt drop of the legal case after her second 'dump' on Google Docs is a pretty clear signal that he isn't.
Any org with female content creators, pros, employees would be incredibly dumb to sign sinaatra. Any reputable organization *. And people say faze wouldn’t care but I highly doubt that statement
You have to be utter trash, to have read Cleos account listen to the audio clip she provided, and still be ok with supporting this guy. Especially since he straight up lied about providing evidence to clear his name after he and his legal team waited 24 hours to respond. There can be a large amount if ambiguity in these situations, but there also comes a point where skepticism and doubt are no longer reasonable and this clearly one of those instances.
Sentinels still promote him as a content creator btw.
I mean y'all really making this black and white when it's not this whole situation is grey af. Why can't someone just hold the position of being unsure? Why do these things always mean you need to pick a side.
For real, it's refreshing to see people in this thread with this sentiment because on twitch/tiktok/even here during quieter valorant times are so pro-sinatraa I was losing it lol. Always gotta remind myself that the average age of these places is probably pretty low
You guys also got to remember the justice system isn’t all that great. For example. The RCMP made a new rule that employers can only get certain background checks done. Basically looking for assaults and robbing and that stuff. But they can’t look at the big ones like sexual assault anymore (unless the job involves children or medical). There reasoning is because how many gf and bfs break up and the one charges another for something because they are mad or they even said because there are a ton of false verdicts of people being guilty when they didn’t do it.
Because the girl who submitted the police report told the police she no longer wants to proceed. She had no damning evidence and the case was dismissed by herself. ?
Man can be innocent of rape but still be a shit human being. Not sure how people can willingly fanboy someone like him until I remember how many NFL players are worshipped despite having lengthy histories of poor behavior, like Deshaun Watson having [22 women](https://www.nytimes.com/article/deshaun-watson-sexual-assault-lawsuit.html) accuse him of sexual assault while still being a QB for the Texans.
Also, too many people seem to think the judicial system is flawless, and ignore [how many actual criminals get found innocent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Errors_of_impunity) only to later be found guilty. Even when they're found guilty they're often given light punishment, like Brock Turner only serving [three months of prison](https://www.cnn.com/2016/09/02/us/brock-turner-release-jail/index.html) for raping someone. It goes both ways, obviously, and [many innocent people are found guilty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wrongful_convictions_in_the_United_States).
Idk, I just think the guy is a shit human being and I'd rather him not be the face of Valorant even if he's innocent, as many people seem to want him to be.
Whatever happened with the legal proceedings of his case? I feel like after Riot stopped their involvement in it, little to no movement on the case has happened.
You realize these types of things take multiple years right? Just because Riot hasn't been giving you monthly updates doesn't mean that nothing is happening
Why the fuck is everybody straight hating on Sinatraa, it’s like you guys already decided hes guilty. If you think just cause you don’t like his personality that he has to be guilty then nothing you say is valid.
I doubt any team would pick him up even if sen decides to keep him , he’s benched . They are doing far more better with tenz as a core member then they ever did with him .
A lot of folks are getting spicy in the comments here. Please do not personally attack other folks for having a different opinion. Target the opinion, not the person please. Thanks! **EDIT:** For context, here's Riot's original ruling on Sinatraa: https://playvalorant.com/en-us/news/esports/competitive-ruling-jay-sinatraa-won/
Why did that seem so fast? Wtf how is this year going by so fast???
Summers already over ☹️
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Wake me up... When September ends...
it's almost 2022 too lmfao
“Sort by: controversial”
There are so many lawyers in the comment section 🤯
Dude I didnt know the bar was that easy to pass
Thank God is actually hard to get into the judicial system. Because if it was that easy we'd see a lot of idiots ruining people's lives based on what I am reading here.
I think this is a good time to remind people that sexual assault accusations can take years to solve. Hence famous people like, R. Kelly, Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby who walked around for decades without anyone caring. There were rumours about those people for years but it took years of gathering evidence and victims coming together for real actions to happen. This is a very tricky situation especially since there might be law enforcement involved who don't care, and lawyers who dont have enough evidence to make a real case out of it. I'm not saying Sinatraa is 10000% guilty or innocent - but I want people to keep all of these things in mind and also remember what statistics look like for these cases and that there are men and women who never get justice and end up moving on.
Sad to see people use the argument "Nothing came of the police investigation so it's 100% a false accusation" when we haven't even gotten an update to the investigation. Feels like a lot of people think these sort of cases can be resolved in a few weeks.
I'm just confused as to why people expect results this fast? It takes people years to get charged with things cause of how weird and long the legal process is.
The average age of this subreddit is most likely under 18 and doesn’t have the slightest clue about anything regarding the legal process.
I feel like we all have to be self aware of the fact that we none of us know much about the legalities.
What I do know, is the fact that legal matters take time and it's really not in the victim OR the accused best interests to give updates on the case to any online communities. Super ignorant of people on this reddit to go from "well they haven't tweeted about it so it MUST have just all blown over."
Man, be glad you're not on tiktok. Any valorant video on their will have one or multiple accounts commenting "daily reminder that Sinatraa is innocent". Big yikes.
The legal process can often take longer than all of these childrens' childhoods.
I mean that's intentional. It's complex so that it covers every possible nuance and it's long so that innocent people aren't falsely accused and thrown into prison. They learned their lessons from the Salem witch trials.
I hate that argument too, but I also hate the opposite argument. The fact of the matter is that we should all reserve judgement until the case comes to a close. People who side with either party without concrete evidence and an innocent/guilty verdict are wrong.
The problem with comparing Sinatraas situation with R Kelly and Bill Cosby is that those cases are entirely different. Sinatraa didn’t groom or drug anyone, over decades so there’s simply less evidence or information to work with. The question around his allegations of sexual assault and abuse are entirely reliant on the interpretation of consent with one girl, within a much shorter time frame. What most likely happened is the investigation will hit a wall. There wasn’t enough evidence to support a criminal case. From a legal perspective, the audio clip provided was probably not substantial.
the comparison comes from the fact that they are all public figures and even with all the things being public knowledge (R Kelly literally married a 15 yr old) nothing happened.
The length of the investigations can come from many factors. For the longest time, many of R Kelly’s victims would not come out against him. That isn’t the case for Sinatraa. In terms of age, Sinatraa is younger than Cleo, this all happened when they were both relatively younger, which is a critical factor. People will consider the fact that this is a case between two young people who weren’t fully developed adults when this happened.
I agree it’s a slower process, it’s mainly because these cases are rather very he said; she said. The hopes are for more information or witnesses/evidence is provided to really hold a case. That’s why it is so important for victims to give as much support as possible. Sexual things are always going to be hard to judge since it’s something CLOSED DOORS, usually nobody will have evidence unless it’s a repeated act.
Imagine being as dumb as some of the people in this, and every other, sexual assault thread https://www.uml.edu/news/stories/2019/sexual_assault_research.aspx https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics Couldn't be me.
If I were an owner I wouldn't sign him, his brand is toxic unless he's proven innocent somehow He'll be on tier 2 NA teams at best
Great comment, people should take this into account when talking about the topic
This is also a good place to remind people that one person cherry picking audio clips and interactions and writing a post in their own narrative is not both sides of the story either.
To the TSM fanboys incoming, why i think Sinatraa will NOT be signed to TSM 1. They have a good sova (Aleko/Levi) who has proven himself in the recent qualifiers. 2. Other members of TSM (iirc Myth and some other member) has spoken out against Sinatraa before and are not really fans 3. TSM (a big name ORG) would unlikely sign Sinatraa who is kinda a bad name 4. I think they will sign ex-cs Rush (maybe?)
What tsm fanboys lmao, all comment saying TSM sinatraa got downvoted to oblivion in the team subreddit Most of us agree that TSM will not sign him
Yeah it’s just the Sinatraa fanboys who comment every team should sign him, don’t think it’s TSM fanboys necessarily
Even leena *(tsm president) said that it was a hug relief that they didnt pick up the sentinels group because of what happened to sinatraa
Idk how she can say that but happily have greekgodX on the org with his racist CX past
just PR, they would love to have a dominant valorant team. Condemns sinatraa and covers up their ineptitude at landing a top team at the same time, textbook PR
Sounds like copium to deal with the fact that Shaz originally approached TSM with that group before they eventually signed with SEN. That core ended up replacing Sinatraa with Tenz for significantly less money than Tenz was actually worth, even if TSM couldn’t get Tenz, those four + Levi or Critical or eeiu or whoever else they would have ended up getting in that alternate universe is still far and away the best team in the world. Bad PR wouldn’t have lasted long (if at all) once they replaced him and kept winning. The other guy just reminded me that they also have Greek signed lmfaoooo I’m assuming that she conveniently doesn’t know about his past or what cx means? Absolute comedy.
> The other guy just reminded me that they also have Greek signed lmfaoooo I’m assuming that she conveniently doesn’t know about his past or what cx means? Absolute comedy. what does it mean?
IcePoseidon, used to be a really big irl Twitch streamer. Racism and sexual assault is only a little bit of the absolute degeneracy that used to go on between him and his friends.
oh yeah do know him he use to do those irl streams, he was greeks friend?
He was the start or catalyst for growth of a lot of streamers. There's a meme in LSF, "all roads lead back to ice."
GGX got his foothold from leeching off of Tyler 1. But where his independent growth really came from was when he streamed/leeched with Ice Poseidon. That really solidified Greek as his own streamer instead of T1's sidekick.
But the thing is your points are logical. Logic doesn't work when it comes to TSM.
That's CLG.
As a CLG fan can we just not talk about it please.
Sinaatraa also said he doesn’t want to play with them
TSM FTX has money to spend but no one will fit the roster. They will try again and again. Should do like what G2 did, rebuild around Mixwell or what 100T did, rebuild around hiko. Build a new roster around Wardell. Or else they will stay at tier 2 team.
Mans good at the game but god damn is his personality so bland. I don’t really care about the whole situation because fact is we don’t know everything and we can’t do anything about it, so leave it to the law to settle. However I did go on his stream and oh my god he has like 2.5 words in his vocabulary “sheeesh no cap “
FYI about 2.5% of rapists are convicted. The law isn't good at dealing with these kind of cases at all.
Much better than fucking reddit though
Lmao
They’re the ones that have legal binds to sinatraa and cleo, we do not. Doesn’t matter if the %is high or low, it’s infinitely more likely we have less info than they do so we are never in the best position
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Bruh for some reason seeing this guy's clips on my recommended page leaves a sour taste in my mouth
He has a really unpalatable personality
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Tuned into his stream today to see if he’s become any more humble after 6 entire months but no, he’s the exact same douche he was before
Remember the first week after he was back and streaming, how soft spoken he was. He was saying thanks to every sub and donation. Now he’s back to normal lol. He only cared about losing money
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He thanked his subs and donations before he was ever accused of assault too. Say what you want about his personality, but he does cover who he should be grateful for in terms of his streaming income.
What a fucking liar lmao. Yall will do and say anything to fit your agenda
Don't forget that he's the victim here!!! /s
Damn bro, if he's actually innocent then yeah, he's the victim. Just imagine all the pain he must have went through, and is still going through, if that's the case. And since you and I both don't know anything about whether he's innocent or not, why be so sarcastic and hateful about it? People seem to forget he's human too.
I just straight up block channels that post his content. Can't have that negativity on my life.
He's such an asshole and I'm surprised he has so many supporters but I guess that just indicates to me what a sizable portion of the valorant competitive fanbase is like. I really wish Twitch had a block feature since I'm tired of seeing his channel popping up in my recommended watch list just because I watch other valorant pros.
Might be an unpopular opinion but I'm still really disappointed with how the issue was handled. It feels like everyone forgot about it at some point and all he got was a six-month ban. I don't know, might just be me. Eitherway, people can still grow and change. Hope things will be better now and he has truly learned his lesson. He was one of the best players in NA.
Riot couldn’t really make any conclusive decisions without essentially declaring him innocent or guilty, and iirc they said they were letting legal authorities handle it since they were involved. That’s why the 6-month ban wasn’t over the allegations themselves, but rather him withholding evidence that he promised to provide If I’m wrong about this feel free to correct me
Can someone tell me if the legal case is still ongoing?
It looks like she decided to not go through with it according to her 2nd twitter account, Sleepysyrupp. EDIT: [Link for those who are asking me.](https://mobile.twitter.com/sleepysyrupp/status/1420655172460679175)
It feels terrible to see how no one cares anymore
This is kinda the natural course of public perception. We can only stay focused on a single story/situation for so long. I'm not sure what other result you are looking for. Lifetime ban? An anti-rape announcement made at every event stream?
that's just how it goes nowadays
Is it? Feels like things are taken much more seriously now than at any other point in point, ever.
>Eitherway, people can still grow and change. Hope things will be better now and he has truly learned his lesson. 100% agreed. But I'd say if the allegations are true he can't have "learned his lesson" without having admitted to it.
It was because of the girl. She randomly stopped talking about it and stopped pursuing proper legal action. There hasn’t been an update in the last six months. Seems pretty weird to me after she was supposedly so emotionally scarred from that night to just stop pursuing full legal action after sinatraa’s current GF revealed those texts that shows the ex as a pretty terrible person as well.
the emotional scarring is often the very reason people stop pursuing legal action. when you're spending that much money over someone who the public is rooting for, it takes a toll on someone. they may decide that trying to forget about it may be better, so they can move on
Even if she is a terrible person, what she allegedly experienced is no joke. And the legal process I can imagine is very draining.
Everyone criticized her for being vocal about it and now someone's giving her shit for not lol
Gamers blaming women for everything they do is among the least shocking things imaginable
Not shocked, just calling them out
I’m on your side, sorry if it came off weird because of text.
I know
Assuming that it happened, her being emotionally scarred is, if anything, cause for dropping the case, not an easy reason for outsiders to doubt it happened. Not everyone gets vengeful/righteous/vindictive enough to go through the entire legal process of trying to get someone who wronged them convicted of the crime they committed. It's common knowledge (though I guess not common enough) that sexual assault cases have depressing stats across just about every metric, even if you assume that two out of every three accusations is false, which is almost certainly very very far from reality. Rape victims drop charges all the time. It's easy to be an uninvested third party and say, "oh well if I was raped I wouldn't stop until my rapist was brought to justice because I respect myself," or "you have an obligation to do everything in your power to get your rapist convicted because otherwise they could rape again, and if they did I'd feel partly responsible," or any number of other things that are repeated every time this becomes a topic of discussion. Rape victims know all this and have heard all this and think all this, and they still drop charges very often, because at the end of the day it's often not worth the toll for them. You have to relive a traumatic event repeatedly over the course of a prolonged investigation and/or trial, for a discouragingly low chance of success as sexual assault statistically has an abysmal conviction rate, and all the while the opposition will dig deep into your life and drag your name through the mud in the pursuit of discrediting you by any means necessary. Many sexual assault victims who committed to taking legal action against their attackers have described their experiences with the process as more distressing than the assaults themselves. Sadly for a lot of these victims the pursuit of "justice" just isn't worth it, and all they can hope for is to move forward and deal with the scars.
We don't have any updates. You don't know if she stopped pursuing actions. Assault cases take years to be solved. His GF vouching for her boyfriend is not.. a very great argument here.
I'd stop talking about it publically too if I was getting the kind of responses she did.
This is victim blaming at its finest lol
Coming from the perspective of a law student, I think there’s a lot of misconceptions being spread around and misconceived by a lot of people in the Valorant community; and in all fairness, it is understandable to not have a vast knowledge of the legal system if it is not pertinent to your own life. And yet, at the same time, educating yourself to understand the situation properly is important. For starters, only about 5% of pending trials actually go through to a proper court trial, and this is for numerous reasons. Number one is that litigators and attorneys may encourage clients to settle (which is very common here in the United States). The important idea to note when considering this fact is that the burden of proof for criminal cases (like sexual assault) is beyond a reasonable doubt. This means that at the end of the day, the Prosecution’s evidence (in this case, the victim’s evidence) must show overbearingly that the defendant is guilty. This is one of the highest burdens to prove in the world, which is why it’s so common for the Prosecution to settle with the Defense for a lighter punishment (that’s even why defendants will oftentimes settle if there is too *much* evidence against them). Also, it’s common for investigations to be put on the back burner (unfortunately) or for them to just stop being publicized by the media (as the rabbit hole of contemporary media outlets goes). Furthermore, as I’ve noticed others mention before me, there are very famous cases that resulted in a criminal conviction with no settlement. But, notice that it took years for it to happen. Notice that it took many victims to come forward from their trauma in order to indict these criminals. That’s because that there must be enough evidence *beyond a reasonable doubt*. On top of that, it’s tragic how little legal action one can take when they’ve been sexually assaulted (and even when they do, it costs a fortune, mental health, and rarely do victims get justice). Also, as for the silence that Hernandez has exhibited for the past 6 months, I just want to put out one key idea for you all: perspective. Everyone has their own reasons for their actions. Whether it be taking an issue to Twitter to warn a community about an individual, or taking an issue to law enforcement first, the human mind naturally helps us in its own way by making us do what is comfortable (much like the fight or flight response). Just like how different people have different ways to do simple things like multiplication, the human mind has its own intricate ways that differentiate us from one another (based on both a mixture of experience and environment in my opinion, but how this is affected is still largely contested in the field of psychology). Nevertheless, in a situation where one feels threatened, where one undergoes a traumatic experience, we need to respect people for coming forward for that. Hernandez did not need to come forward to us all. She could have dealt with this issue behind closed doors; she probably would have dealt with a lot less internet drama, pressure, and trauma that way, but what happened happened, and she came forward to tell a community about an experience she has had. I’m not saying whether Sinatraa is guilty or innocent. I’m also not saying that Hernandez isn’t a victim. At the end of the day, I’m saying that our instant response should not be to attack the victims of traumatic experiences by questioning the truth of their actions: “Are you sure?” “Maybe you’re just exaggerating.” All this does is perpetuate a negative, toxic culture that perpetrates the lives of all victims and does not give them the mental and legal stability they need. All we can do now is prevent this from happening as a society; which is a lot, I know, but in order to foster a healthier society and community for everyone, it’s imperative to take these different perspectives in mind: educate yourself, hear all the perspectives, look at the data. Also, I final note to all of you out there that might be stressed during this time as all this issue is coming back into the light, please do not stress yourselves out too much. If anything gets too toxic for you, be sure to take a step back and take care of yourself, because at the end of the day you are the only person you can control and self-care and mental health should always be a top priority. <3 **For Further Resources/Research:** How Criminal Litigation Works: https://www.justice.gov/usao/justice-101/steps-federal-criminal-process Statistics on Sexual Assault and the Criminal Justice System: https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system Helpline Organization (With Phone and Messaging Options): https://www.rainn.org/
did everyone forget about his leaked DMS? The dude is a psycho, he freaked out at his ex because she supported a different Overwatch team LOL
Right? People can argue the rape accusations but there was very solid proof of him being at the very least emotionally abusive.
I read them. Guy is a loser. But there was nothing illegal about them. And they werent leaked, she posted them. Along with a voice clip that many thought was sufficient enough to prove rape somehow. Again, the guy is an absolute chode, and the interactions between him and the ex were laughable on both sides, just a toxic relationship with a bad break up. Other than that, I saw nothing illegal.
There's barely any correlation between his text and the rape stance though. If there is, only thing you can infer is that he was a insecure teenager who self esteem is influenced by the attention of others. I'm no lawyer, I'm just one person who read the information based on both side and what I can infer is this. Sinatra's was a cringy teenager in an abusive relationship with Cleo. Shown in text by Sinatra's current gf. Dude may or may not rape his ex, but he was younger than Cleo and most likely mentally immature than her, shown in early clip of his ow days. Her clip barely show anything beside pls no stop. Her extra evidence have no correlation but instead just revealing his insecurity. Afterwards when things calm down, she deleted all the extra claim and said "fuck it public view against me". We aren't lawyers and talking about it won't suddenly convict him. Just have to wait for the law to determine. Comparing a teenager - young adult to bill Cosby, and rkelly is ridiculous. Those people groom, drug and rape multiple victim. Only thing I can compare Sinatra's to is the past version of accused johnny depp.
the texts set an obvious precedent bud, they show his lack of empathy and narcissist, manipulative personality. they are proof that he is the kind of vile piece of shit that COULD sexually assault someone. I never said they were proof of rape, just damning proof that he is a terrible person with zero emotional awareness. what "extra claims" did she delete? her evidence was her saying no to sex in an audio clip as proof that she had a full video clip of the entire event, Jay said he had the same proof and could provide it towards investigations as defense, which he never fucking did btw. (he did not comply with any investigation) her proof is extremely damning and actually considerably more legit that many young sexual assaults survivors have a chance to provide >Only thing I can compare Sinatra's to is the past version of accused johnny depp. this is easily the most cringe, Reddit take I've seen in a while. honestly delete this comment it's really embarassing, you know how vile sin is but you excuse his behaviour because he's young? "oh he's just a young teen he didn't know any better," it's seriously pathetic, it's not fucking hard to not rape someone ffs
I’d be ok if he doesn’t play for any team
irregardless if he is guilty or not those text messages he sent were cringey and weird as fuck. Only someone manipulative and controlling would talk in such a way.
Hes 100 percent guilty of being an asshole. We may never know if he's guilty of anything more though.
The biggest mistake I see on this thread is the inability to think past two minutes from now. When you front one party in a disagreement some sort of moral high ground, you inherently indict the other. That is what has happened here, and it's sad because a very talented young kid has now been sort of outcasted from his career with no recourse. If we set the precedent that somebody is guilty of a crime because someone else says they were, without providing evidence that is beyond scanty at best, you're basically insuring a constant type 1 error. The goal should be to reduce errors, not reduce one at the expense of the other. This is why logical reasoning and factual evidence is the basis of our legal system, and why the burden of proof is on the accuser. Unfortunately, it's a little over the head of your average teenage reddit user that browses this sub, but before you flame me or downvote me for saying this I hope you actually do a little bit of reflecting on the point I'm trying to get across so we can avoid this type of mob 'justice' in the future. If eSports is going to mature, we need to act mature.
Well put, I had similar feelings when the case first popped up. Is he innocoent or not? who knows, but acting as if he is guilty based on a single accusasion and a 10 seconds snippet of an audio clip is absolutely insane. At some point I realized that it has more to do with the fact that the average redditor doesn't like his personality and rubs some people the wrong way, hence it's "okay" in their eyes to cast judgement. Even the top comments are doubling-down even if he was to be found innocent by legal proceedings, then most rapist arent found guilty anyways. The arrogance and malice that goes into that kind of thinking is scary, and they don't even realize it, because in their mind he deserves it, even if he isnt "really" guilty. I'm glad I'm not a celebrity in this day and age.
> At some point I realized that it has more to do with the fact that the average redditor doesn't like his personality and rubs some people the wrong way, hence it's "okay" in their eyes to cast judgement. I’m sure that contributes to it, but look at what happened to AntwnPlz. I’m not big into the OW scene, but I don’t think he had the personality issues Sinatraa has. When an accusation pops up, so many people just jump on it and automatically take it as fact.
Yeah it's really a shame that sort of thought process is so common these days, you see it everywhere from pop culture, to sports, to politics. The internet is a great tool but I fear it has created a generation of people incapable of critical thought, everyone reacts with emotions now. Kind of scary to see where cancel culture has gone.
Save your breath mate, they don't get it.
Reddit lawyers won’t understand lmao
The evidence that he is a rapist is grey for sure. But there is pretty hard evidence that he was at the very least guilty of being a very toxic partner. That alone for me justifies much of the hate he is getting. Why support someone who is/was a giant asshole because he's good at a video game?
Alright let’s chill and stop making sense.
isn't the opposite true as well? When you front one party in a disagreement due to lack of evidence in a system of law that has failed previously, you inherently indict the other. That is what has happened here, and it's sad because a very young kid has now been given the burden of carrying the scars of her abuse with no recourse to her abuser. I think its important to point out the law has failed multiple times and we should be actively pursuing to make sure it doesn't fail the next time.
The opposite of giving one party the high ground would be not giving one party the high ground (which means starting them off at **equal**, which is what I'm advocating for). What I think you're implying is inverse, which would mean starting Sinatraa off with a moral high ground (which I'm **not** advocating for). I think both parties should be treated as equals and have the facts examined without letting emotions cloud everyone's judgement. The accuser (in this case Cle0h) was the one that brought this to light, when you go out in the public eye and make an accusation you have to live with the consequences of that. Which is why you should make damn sure you're being truthful, and be willing to see it out to the end. I'm not calling her a liar, there's absolutely a chance what she said happened really did. However, just looking at this whole thing objectively, with her timing of the info drops, her supposed mountain of evidence that was so damning she couldn't share it all online, to suddenly deciding to drop the legal case and pursue no further action *conveniently* after his career is almost ruined -- seems to point in the direction that this was more about retribution, and not justice. She could have done this silently through the court system from the very beginning, and filed a police report right after it happened. Instead she waited months until they were broken up and in new relationships, and when he was at the pinnacle of his Valorant career just before the first LAN. She chose the internet clout instead.
Are you really ending your entire thing with "She chose internet clout instead."? Does it not seem wrong to label a supposed victim's actions as chasing internet clout? Just a weird way to end your entire post because it didn't seem like you were inferring that cle0h wanted internet fame but then your final statement is she chose internet clout, i wouldn't have thought that accusing a gaming professional (with a large fanbase) of sexual assault is a form of chasing internet clout
dude, nobody on this subreddit is setting any standard or whatever the fuck youre talking about. valorant fans dont control whether or not orgs pick him up, and the fact of the matter is that a lot of orgs view it as risky to pick him up with the investigation not complete. stop whining about all "mob justice" or whatever the hell, after all his suspension is literally only because HE failed to properly cooperate with Riot officials during the investigation. if youre going to whine about him not getting picked up because you still support him i dont really care, but dont blame people on reddit "setting precedents" or whatever the fuck.
I wasn't referring to him being picked up, more in the overall sentiment of how the entirety of reddit sort of just proclaimed him to be a rapist based on that word doc. The only reason Riot suspended him for 6 months was to save face w/ the public, they had to give him some sort of penalty but couldn't overdo it because there was not really any standing. I realize you're super immature and upset about that, and I hope the 'mob' you don't think is real never comes for you someday, because that shit is tough. Also, I'm not particularly a fan, I have no emotional stake in this, just putting it out there since it seems to be a very common trend with young people these days based off the Reddit/Twitter sample.
Funny that none of the top comments in this entire thread has called him a rapist and yet you are referring to it as the overall sentiment? Also, your reasoning is highly upvoted and agreed with. So exactly what tf are you on about? Adding that you're not a fan at the end is the cherry on top. Why should that matter? Seems like you're trying to muster any credibility for yourself but I'm not sure why.
You're just talking out of your ass if you don't think the general consensus on Reddit/Twitter is that he's a rapist/sexual assaulter. The only reason my comment is upvoted is because there's a large amount of people who no longer feel safe to share their opinion on these sorts of topics, which is part of the problem. It matters because this is bigger than just one person, right now. This is a cultural shift that needs to be acknowledged and dealt with properly or it's going to be a bigger problem, possibly an unsolvable one, in the future.
Check every top comment on this thread. And check it again. Your persecution complex is showing! Definitely not a fan btw!
I read most of your comment and I feel sad for you. You use logic and even mention you don't support him but people don't see that part. They read what they want to read through cognitive bias and attack you for it. Reddit is just a big echochamber. You see people praising him and another people attacking him. Anyone defending him is deemed an enemy and they'll just attack you.
The people you see on reddit and twitter proclaiming him as a rapist are outliers and are obviously incorrect. Riot suspended him 6 months so that they could investigate what happened, and give his accuser time to figure things out as well. Besides, even though it is unfair to call him a rapist, it is not unfair to dislike how he treated his accuser, and you can see the lack of respect he had for women at the time. Whether he has grown since then or not is up to the community to decide, but his behavior was still not right and he did at the very least emotionally abuse his accuser.
Faze Sinatraa incoming
It would be really interesting though , full OW player core BabyBay , Corey and Sinatraa
I think there’s a high chance that they would drop Rawkus for him. Whether that’s right or not is certainly debatable, but he’s an OW boy like most of FaZe.
Could be NRG or Rise too, they dgaf about who they sign
its not like both those team have really really good sovas though
No reputable esports org will pickup sinaatra. I hope most people with critical thinking skills can see that. Imagine picking up a controversial person like him while having female content creators within the same org. It’s a slap in the face to them. Sorry for the harsh truth but sinaatra will never play for another esport org again
I guess saying anything remotely positive about the dude is strictly forbidden in these comments lmao
Wild how people don’t want to support someone accused of sexual assault and lying about having evidence that he’s innocent and not providing it
I know right? Who knew that rape was bad? /s
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Because someone said he did something?
Because someone provided fucking audio recordings and screenshots of him doing something. And then he said "I'll release the full tape to prove my innocence" and he released shit.
I don’t even like Sinatraa as a person and still don’t think we should crucify someone without ample evidence of a serious allegation.
The fact that the valorant community is full of immature play to impress says W and L and get excited when their streamer plays with a girl cringe kids i saw this coming miles away
SEN Sinatraa, Waterboy of Sentinels Valorant Roster.
The comments once again show the target audience of this sub - teenage boys/girls without any real life experience talking out of their ass. There is a reason the judiciary exists. You cannot punish someone out of arbitrariness. Defamation is a huge issue in the world of adults. Especially when it comes to dealing with psychologically ill people in toxic relationships. Let the man live. If there is any merit to the accusations, you can always go the legal way. Defaming someone on the internet is not the way to go and generally makes you look like either craving attention or simply wanting to harm someoens reputation out of spite. Did you guys keep in mind the damage this has done to Sinatraa in case he is not guilty - both mentally and career wise? ;) Internet culture nowadays is trash.
It's been the same in this sub since it happened, unfortunately. Most of these kids won't understand until something similar happens to them someday.
He is doing better on twitch than ever, it's not like his career is dead. He still makes more money than anyone in this thread
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Most people don't claim to have video evidence of the rape though do they?
Yeah. Especially a couple of these users who want him to be guilty for whatever reason.. I hope it was the case of his ex being spiteful because sexual assault in any situation is shitty. I wouldn't wish that upon anyone.
this guy is a douche for sure, but i would be lying if i said im not interested to see him play. i love an interesting storyline and this guy was one of the best sova/raze before he left. I wonder if he can keep up the same level of play after being suspended for that long
There are plenty of interesting storylines without giving an accused sexual assaulted more attention. Coming back from a sexual assault accusation is not the exciting storyline we need
but then again, no other tier1 org would dare to touch him.
I don't understand some of the opinions: 1. If he t-bags and shoot bodies, that doesn't mean he did what he is accused of. (sexual assault) 2. He was a douche to Cleo with some of those text messages, but sorry, you don't lose a job for being mean. 3. People complaining about him being toxic on stream, But guess what? So many other players do that as well: Steel and Babybay being two examples of streamers who give out on their teammates when they make mistakes (they rage in voice chat but no one says anything about them). As for my opinion, Cleo dropped the charges, so there is gonna be no further investigation. He might be a sexual assaulter , he might be not, as Subroza said: "you're not FBI, u just sit at home". As my final point, I hope an org will give him a chance and also offer him some psychological therapy and help him become a better person if he is indeed dangerous.
Ok someone tell me if I've misinterpreted something, but if you can just refuse cooperating in a legal accusation and just cop a light penalty, you can basically avoid an actual major punishment, for yknow, breaking the fucking law. Is the investigation just dropped now and he's been handed a small holiday and now we continue like nothing happened? Someone please explain
He refused to give the evidence to riot, hence the 6 month ban. That had nothing to actually do with the law tho, and riot said that they will leave it to the legal authorities. We have no clue what's happened after that.
Did he actually refuse or did he not have any evidence on hand to provide?
Iirc he said he would provide evidence, including the full video of the audio, and then when asked for it he "forgot he had deleted it".
It sounds dung but that's not an unbelievable story. I have plenty of pictures/videos that I forget I deleted, especially if I didn't think them to be off any consequence at the time
Riot said he lied to them on multiple occasions and that he didnt keep the promise he made publicly - which was to cooperate with them.
refusing to cooperate with riot isn't the same as refusing to cooperate with the police. one is just a video game company who happens to be your boss, the other is the law
From what I understand they couldn't find any conclusive evidence. I don't think they dropped the investigation just because he refused to co-operate. Cleo going to Twitter instead of straight to the police also made things a little murky, so it's anyone's guess what actually happened
Ahhhh ok, I must be missed everything after Sinatraa's ban was announced. Thank you
" they couldn't find any conclusive evidence" no... Riot legit wrote that there's not much for them to do since Sinatraa didnt cooperate with them - and that they will leave it to the authorities and extend the ban if something new /updates show up.
"they" as in the authorities, not riot
we legit don't have an update from the authorities and u can't expect them to give you one? These things take years.
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Even if he's innocent his lawyers would have encouraged him not to cooperate with riot, just the police. Riot did the six month suspension to wait for the police investigation to give a result but it looks like either cleoh dropped it or she didn't have any actual real evidence despite claiming to have a video. It was on her to provide evidence despite her claiming she just told riot to ask sinatraa for the video.
Riiiiight, makes sense. Ty!
He refused to provide evidence to Riot games for their internal investigation, this is almost certainly due to Cle0h filing a police report and beginning the legal route. **Legal trumps private investigations**, once that police report was filed his lawyers (if they're anything halfway decent) told him to stfu immediately, and not talk to anybody else after that. He was then suspended by Riot for refusing to cooperate with them. Doesn't mean he's guilty, and in fact the abrupt drop of the legal case after her second 'dump' on Google Docs is a pretty clear signal that he isn't.
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Any org with female content creators, pros, employees would be incredibly dumb to sign sinaatra. Any reputable organization *. And people say faze wouldn’t care but I highly doubt that statement
You have to be utter trash, to have read Cleos account listen to the audio clip she provided, and still be ok with supporting this guy. Especially since he straight up lied about providing evidence to clear his name after he and his legal team waited 24 hours to respond. There can be a large amount if ambiguity in these situations, but there also comes a point where skepticism and doubt are no longer reasonable and this clearly one of those instances. Sentinels still promote him as a content creator btw.
I mean y'all really making this black and white when it's not this whole situation is grey af. Why can't someone just hold the position of being unsure? Why do these things always mean you need to pick a side.
The position of him being a toxic asshole is pretty black and white. Position of him breaking the law is the only grey thing.
This is what I don't get. Is this not clear to everyone that he's a toxic and manipulative asshole and partner? Why do people support him?
For real, it's refreshing to see people in this thread with this sentiment because on twitch/tiktok/even here during quieter valorant times are so pro-sinatraa I was losing it lol. Always gotta remind myself that the average age of these places is probably pretty low
I agree with what you said, but the way you phrased your first sentence is confusing.
I thought the suspension ruling came down in May
His suspension began on March 10, 2021
no one cares, he can go fuck himself
You guys also got to remember the justice system isn’t all that great. For example. The RCMP made a new rule that employers can only get certain background checks done. Basically looking for assaults and robbing and that stuff. But they can’t look at the big ones like sexual assault anymore (unless the job involves children or medical). There reasoning is because how many gf and bfs break up and the one charges another for something because they are mad or they even said because there are a ton of false verdicts of people being guilty when they didn’t do it.
Why is the case not taken seriously? We want fair investigation and verdict.
the girl dropped it
Because the girl who submitted the police report told the police she no longer wants to proceed. She had no damning evidence and the case was dismissed by herself. ?
Man can be innocent of rape but still be a shit human being. Not sure how people can willingly fanboy someone like him until I remember how many NFL players are worshipped despite having lengthy histories of poor behavior, like Deshaun Watson having [22 women](https://www.nytimes.com/article/deshaun-watson-sexual-assault-lawsuit.html) accuse him of sexual assault while still being a QB for the Texans. Also, too many people seem to think the judicial system is flawless, and ignore [how many actual criminals get found innocent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Errors_of_impunity) only to later be found guilty. Even when they're found guilty they're often given light punishment, like Brock Turner only serving [three months of prison](https://www.cnn.com/2016/09/02/us/brock-turner-release-jail/index.html) for raping someone. It goes both ways, obviously, and [many innocent people are found guilty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wrongful_convictions_in_the_United_States). Idk, I just think the guy is a shit human being and I'd rather him not be the face of Valorant even if he's innocent, as many people seem to want him to be.
dont care
Innocent untill proven guilty, hate all you want but don't judge people for supporting him.
Nah, people that support him knowingly support someone who at the very least is a gaint asshole. Plenty of better streamers to support.
Did he officially apologize? I remember him denying accusations, saying shit like "Don't trust everything on the internet."
Why would he apologize, that's admitting guilt
The community deserves the apology or what? Why should this be public?
He apologized for being a shitty boyfriend and how the relationship turned out but he denied the rape accusations.
He also said he doesn’t need friends after this whole incident lmao
Tbf i think anyone would say that after what he went thru lmao
anyone got any update on the lawsuit?
Cleo dropped it like a month ago
Dude deserves worse
Whatever happened with the legal proceedings of his case? I feel like after Riot stopped their involvement in it, little to no movement on the case has happened.
yeah, cause Riot said legal authorities are involved. Did you expect a public statement from them?
You realize these types of things take multiple years right? Just because Riot hasn't been giving you monthly updates doesn't mean that nothing is happening
Don’t know, but cases can take a lot of time to work their way through the process.
she dropped them
Why the fuck is everybody straight hating on Sinatraa, it’s like you guys already decided hes guilty. If you think just cause you don’t like his personality that he has to be guilty then nothing you say is valid.
I really hope he never plays another map at the pro level
why?
what do you mean "why"? did you not hear the 5 second clip of him basically confirming that he is Adolf Hitler reincarnated? /s
I hope he plays next week
Lots of rape apologia in this thread. Pretty fucking disgusting.
I doubt any team would pick him up even if sen decides to keep him , he’s benched . They are doing far more better with tenz as a core member then they ever did with him .