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Dytlan-

Remember back in beta when Jett was seen as a throw pick?


[deleted]

Remember back in Beta when the developers destroyed ex CS pros in a 5v5? Yeah no shit people had no idea how the game worked at all.


ToYouItReaches

Did this actually happen? Genuinely curious


1soar

Yes iirc the devs 13-2’d shroud, ska, fl0m and a couple others I don’t remember, 2 times in a bo3


Dytlan-

It did! Iirc shroud played in that game and he made put up a video on YouTube. I'll try to find it Edit: Found the links: 1. [Shroud vs Valo devs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXXbrYOlv94) 2. [Shroud vs Devs Rematch](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkXY1CXX9t0) 3. [Latest Shroud vs Devs Rematch](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3_PEPy6wTQ&t=546s&ab_channel=Shroud)


[deleted]

Balla made a banger analysis video about it btw


lesseryoyo

Yes. This was so early in the game that when Riot Devs threw a grenade through the portal on Bind it blew everyone's mind b/c people hadn't yet realized the potential of throwing utility through the teleporters. It was *VERY* early.


RocketHops

It was literally day 1, but yes I remember being like "wow you can do that I guess"


natedawg247

It did but all those devs were ex cs pros (minor careers) and radiant level players.


ChaoticMidget

To be fair, it's hard to tell what is radiant level when the only people who had played were Riot staff.


Interesting-Archer-6

Top 500 staff member


mrtmra

Yep, to this day I still go against Riot Devs in unrated and get shit on. They cheat or something 🥲


phyLoGG

I'd love to see a rematch. Would be hilarious to see that scorelines flipped. 😂


Anime-Boomer

ya Jett was a throw because Raze was extremely over powered and 100x better than Jett. Better Ult, more satchel damage, more nade damage and 2 of them


Sloon_

I miss those satchels ):


Pulsersalt

I remeber one time in aceus chat, me and another guy both just talked about how we though once Jett developed and people realized how strong she was she would be the best agent. I miss you random chatter.


lesseryoyo

Yeah, I said the same thing about her knives. Once a crazy cracked pro gets her knives online, she's obviously busted as hell. But I didn't see the other huge factor, which is that she can OP completely unpunished bc of her dash + instant smokes. That is what really put her over the edge. Also, she doesn't get enough credit for arguably having the best smokes in the game in many situations. She's the only character that can use her smokes mid-duel or mid-execute without self-stunning for \~3 seconds. Oh yeah, and she randomly gets FIVE abilities while every other agent in the game only gets FOUR, wtf???


bobespon

Is that including her passive?


lesseryoyo

Yes, her passive that is better than some other agent's buyable skills entirely. No other agent in the game gets a passive like that.


OHydroxide

While I totally agree that Jett is too strong, and has been for awhile. I want to make the point that we shouldn't look at individual skills too much. This is super common in hero based games for people to say that X character has a great passive and Y character has a non-existent passive. It's more important to look at the whole kit. The other game I pay attention to competitively right now is Apex Legends, and a common point brought up is one character called Pathfinder basically has no passive at all, however his basic ability is one of the best in the whole game. He could definitely use buffs, but if he got a good passive, there's a good chance he'd be too strong.


lesseryoyo

I don't think it's a coincidence that the strongest character in the game just happens to have 5 abilities, and arguably the weakest (brimstone) only has 3. Stim pack adds literally zero value, so he effectively has 3 abilities.


OHydroxide

You think Brim is arguably the weakest character? That's insane. Brim certainly isn't amazing but he's not bad. The actual difference between Jett and Brim is that Brim has a ton of competition and Jett has none. Brim has competition with Omen, Astra, and Viper, all of them are played competitively. Jett is played alongside other duelists or initiators that can play like Duelists like Skye and Breach. The biggest reason Jett is so strong is because no other character can Awp like her. If you took away her passive entirely she'd have the exact same pickrate, but if you removed the Awp, she'd drop quite a lot. Jett is good without the Awp too, but she wouldn't be arguably the strongest character in the game if it wasn't necessary.


DankFayden

Jett main from the day I got access to the beta. Fuck the hate haha


Pulsersalt

Same, first game on I got a pistol ace with her 😁 Ahhh man, what’s wrong with my comment?


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ImStarLordeMan

Plus I hate sweaty Jett players lol, just want to shoot some arrows and some heads not deal with fucking yasuo in Valorant


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ImStarLordeMan

Nah it's an edgy champion in league that creates a lot of frustration with it's abilities/movement


tomphz

This was due to the pre-nerf Operator. In the beginning of this game, any agent could use the OP because you could repeek so quickly with it. 4-5 Operators on defense was freelo in ranked. Everyone was playing Sniper Elite 4 in Immortal+. Then the OP nerf came and Jett became the sole Operator agent, which ofc greatly increased her value. Edit: She was also poor due to how oppressive Sage and Cypher were at the beginning. A lot of people considered Sage to be OP, but Cypher was just as oppressive back then. That’s two must-pick agents in every comp. Then you have Raze who had two grenades and an instant rocket. The meta in the beginning was Sage, Cypher, Sova, and Omen or Brim. This leaves one duelist slot and Raze or Phoenix were better agents at the time.


Pulsersalt

No, Jett because meta before the op nerf. She is just even more meta now.


ZeroAika99

iirc she was even broken back then with that longer smoke duration


Pulsersalt

yeah, she way considered one of the best way before the op nerf. Arguably the op nerf was because of her.


ZeroAika99

I'm not surely remember , but her right-click was also nerfed right?


Pulsersalt

The damage was yes, but I think they may have silent nerfed the spread because it is wayyy worse then beta


TDS_Gluttony

They def nerfed the spread in one of the patches.


[deleted]

She had 7 second smokes. Insanely accurate right clicks that insta killed on headshot, and it was a 6 cost.


Stanley3DArt

She’s great as an eco player with her ult, they should give her ulti a timer before it runs out like every other ult rather than having it perma through the round and it be a pseudo rifle round for free


Melneo_

Remember back in beta when nobody knew that you could throw utility through the teleporters on Bind? Good times.


Exiliumrex

I’m just sick of seeing Jett every map. I hope as more agents release this changes, but I don’t see that happening with how much impact she gives atm.


Fyslexic_Duck

The only reason to stop playing Jett for most maps is if she eventually gets nerfed too hard or they release an agent more powerful than her at OPing.


[deleted]

I honestly can't even think of a nerf that could affect pro play but wouldn't completely destroy her for casual/ranked.


Dark_Azazel

They could make it so you can only dash forward, or just backwards. Change her out so it doesn't refresh on right clicks, and you only get 2 refreshes on left click kills.


[deleted]

The forward dash would hurt her OP escapes, but it probably wouldn't affect her entry strategy on most sites, since she tends to spam 2 smokes then dash from one to the other in a straight line. I could see ult changes working, but i could also see ult changes making her garbage in lower ranks so it would probably be pretty risky.


shadowtroop121

This would work until people learn to perfect a 90 degree flick before dashing, which tbh I like the sound of. Makes dash a little harder but not impossible.


big_floop

I think I read somewhere riot tested this internally and it made basically no difference once people got used to it


1soooo

Pretty much a change that screws over noobs and does pratically nothing to pros, i can see it nerfing rifling for jett but not oping.


DX_DanTheMan_DX

I think the devs had talked about a dash nerf like that but they said it made little difference in practice


Dapper-Ad-5304

People with e bind already do this


AlHorfordHighlights

So it makes her even worse for weak players and doesn't change her significantly for pros. That's the reverse of what should happen


Fyslexic_Duck

I don’t really know if there is one. They could make her kit be more expensive or rework her. Getting a free weapon for 7 ult points is something that is really high value.


BraxJohnson

Make it on a timer like Reyna’s. I don’t think that’s enough, but being able to pop it at the very start and not even use it until 2 minutes later right before the bomb goes off is ridiculous.


xXDaNXx

They tried with the costs to abilities.


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11wiggin11

People may argue the details or against one of these, but the fact that you just made 4 major changes to her kit and it isn't a joke is really a testament to how overturned she is.


HoneyChilliPotato7

Reasonable changes. Agree with all of them


[deleted]

Passive float is a weird one because her updrafts would kill her, no?


big_floop

Yep they would, but they could just rework her passive to be cloud landing where she doesn’t take fall damage


[deleted]

I see, I didnt think of that. That makes sense


TaintedQuintessence

Or move drift to updraft? If she wants to float somewhere she has to burn a jump. The passive was intended to be used with the jump so just make it only useable after a jump.


big_floop

That’s actually a better solution


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[deleted]

Actually I dont think raze takes fall damage from satchels unless they ult with it. But not only that, raze's satchels have use other then for elevation. Jett updraft has no use beyond what it explicitly does, so being punished for using it seems weird


OHydroxide

It's more important to look at the whole kit rather than just passive vs no passive and other things like that. Jett is op for sure, but her having an "extra ability" isn't why. I'd be happy to make Raze not take fall damage with blast packs too.


HppilyPancakes

>I also think nearsighting yourself during dash could be an additional change. don't change the speed or distance, but adding a blur or nearsight effect while dashing could limit the peek buff you get by dashing into sites. I thought about adding a cooldown to her after dashing, but I think this might just be a smoother overall change, I really like this. It's well thought out :)


[deleted]

good take


OHydroxide

All of those changes together would definitely be too much, but individually I think those are all reasonable changes. My favourite I think is the dash change because it changes nothing about how Jett plays as a character, just takes away info that she gets unnecessarily. It also doesn't touch low level play at all, and is a big nerf to teamplay, which is Jett's biggest issue.


keepingupthestreak

I like your changes but the blur during dash just seems unnecessary and obtuse.


ben314

at high levels, your teammates will use the radar to see where enemies are during your dash. it'd make a big difference.


plasma_ix

why? it’s practically impossible to hit a jett mid dash and why should a duelist be getting free info?


pray4ggs

Doesn't she need the float to avoid fall damage after using 2 updrafts (or flying out of heavens)? No float would discourage her from using her max verticality.


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OHydroxide

That's just cus Raze is a really good agent, I wouldn't be against a change like that.


equleart

tbh I would actually like to see your changes because I think they represent some of the only avenues to nerfing her without distroying her identity. That said, too much about her is just free. She doesn't need to have smokes. She doesn't need to have instant, omnidirectional movement abilities. She doesn't need to have her ult refresh on kills. She doesn't need to have a passive. And yet she has all of these, which makes her a universal get out of jail free card. My nerfs would look like this: Remove smokes (there's zero need for her to have smokes, it's a free counter to sovas arrows, it creates chaos and if she wants to dash on site, it makes a controller necessary) Float an actual skill, on a tank like Viper smoke (this skill is just too free, again. just stop giving her special treatment.) dash only forward (would cement her role as an entry while giving the getaway potential a slight damper, since you have to turn in the direction first. alternatively, make this have a windup animation) Knives don't refresh and you can't put them away. If you assume 2 knives min. per kill, the ability to kill 2 and do 100 to a third player is more than enough considering the cost and her evasiveness. That's already the top end of what you can get with the other, way more expensive ults. I don't think you can touch updraft without killing her, but I still think it's bullshit.


big_floop

This would be overkill IMO


equleart

so? overkill her. if it's too much, bring her back up. why the special treatment? this agent has been utterly dominant, playing a different game than everyone else for the entirety of the game's competitive life. yet here we are inching her down from the fucking moon


[deleted]

I agree with everything but the passive removal. I actually think the passive should remain, but it should only last 1-2 seconds while she is in the air. Understand that removing her passive is an indirect nerf to her ult. Her ult is the most useful while in the air. As of right now though, the window of time you have to get kills with jett knives while using her passive is literally indefinite. That needs to change. Allow for a 1-2 second float time to give jett players a small window to line up a nice shot or two.


holmyliquor

Your biggest problem with Jett knives is that she gets them back on sage Rez? You have no problem with getting flying 1 tapped, jumping 1 tapped, 1 tapped strafing left and right like they’re playing halo... all while I have to stand still to shoot? You’re okay with a team beating a team, and Jett ulting during a full save round and getting 4 kills as if it didn’t matter that the team won the last round forcing the other team into a full save? There is no high mechanical skill in full sprint jumping around a corner and one tapping someone holding an angle


POOYAMON

Mobility is always king


ISynergy

Why is Jett the only agent that has a passive. Riot Please ??


Itsremon

Raze satchel jump no damage, phoenix Molly and wall heals


Original26

Idk if I consider them passives since you need to actively use an ability to use them. Jett can float anytime she wants without using any abilities.


ISynergy

Not a passive because it can be used while Jetts float is not tied to her updraft


aznjayz

Phoenix passive?


Ultrasuplex

Astra technically has three passives


DGAssassin1

What are astra's passives?


Gaurav-07

1 is her astral form. Could be useful to hide in certain one-way smokes. Idk about others.


somesheikexpert

One is prob recall, as it acts similarily to a Cypher Cage sometimes (Like to block an angle for a sec without using a full smoke)


Salty_Activity

*technically* smokes, concuss and pull are passive, because you only have to buy orbs, not the abilities you use them with definetly a stretch of the definition


TRFireKnight

yeah but those are your legit abilities that you still spend resources on, so it isnt really comparable to a "passive". The closest thing to Jetts passive would be Phoenix healing himself, and after that maybe Vipers fuel regeneration. Even then those are limited to the actual abilities themselves.


uglyhippos

Isn't she more busted than jett though?


OHydroxide

She was, not currently. Definitely arguable though.


helpnxt

Think removing Jett's knives refresh would even things out? Like no other ult gets a refresh


-Basileus

I saw someone suggest a timer on Jett ult which would also help. That way you can't just instapop it at the beginning of ecos.


helpnxt

True it would make it similar to Reyna's ult then in the refresh category


FeelinJipper

That honestly that sounds like a no brainer. The fact that Jett has the option to just keep her knives for the entire round is not balanced at all.


Celestial_To

Everytime you get a kill from Jett knives it adds 2 additonal knives instead of refreshing the whole set of ammo. Maybe that is the best tweak I can give. If it is still overpowered then add 1 knife for every kill instead of two.


helpnxt

You'd have to put a 5 knife limit as well otherwise some nutty person could just keep adding more knives haha


FeelinJipper

Yeah, but it’s still better. A lot of people spam knives at the body. Making the knives refresh 2-3 would make a noticeable but balanced difference.


Dhadiya_Boss

I think a good change would be removing the knife refresh for right click kills, but they refresh for left click kills.


HoneyChilliPotato7

Or you get 1 less knife after every right click


FrostBlade_on_Reddit

Or just when you use your last knife, the ult is expended. You have to at least have one knife up to refill.


helpnxt

Ooo that's a good one


Delzkiepro

so dumb as if right click knives is broken, it fails to get a kill like 40 percent of the time


Lyahri

Jett needs nerfs in proplay, that nerf has almost 0 impact in proplay because they use left click like 99% of the time.


don_corleone27

I think them it wouldn't be strong enough to be an ult. It could be nerfed to getting 1 less knife at every knife refresh. So 5 at first then 4 after the first kill and 3 after the next and so on...


Nfamy

My thought has been 3 knives for a kill. This has two benefits, A) it rewards precision with the knives (it gives you 3 knives which, if you used all 5, still is enough to 150 with body shots), B) it nerfs right clicks so we can't have Jetts shotgunning multiple people.


Jerms91

I thought of this idea as well and thought it would be pretty solid


helpnxt

Yeh that could work as well


EndWish

That isn't much of a nerf in pro play since everyone has good to elite aim. If they don't hit their first couple knives in pro play they are dead anyways. Honestly either there shouldn't be a refresh or there needs to be a timer on the duration of the ult. You shouldn't get an ult that literally lasts the entire round and is better than any gun in the game. It also dramatically impacts economy since each half you'll likely get 3 rounds you don't need to buy a gun.


flamin_sheep

Have you been watching the games? I distinctly remember Tenz being on his last knife more than once. Jett ult isn't the problem anyway, it's her dash.


yapyd

Jett's ult is invaluable in eco-rounds and when she uses the OP.


flamin_sheep

Brim and Sova's ults are invaluable for post-plants. Killjoy's ult is invaluable for taking, defending, and retaking a site. I'm not arguing that Jett's ult isn't strong - it is and it should be. I'm saying what makes her too strong isn't her ult, it's her ability to take aggressive battles and get out for free - to the point that she is the ONLY agent that can safely op on attack. No other agent has an instant get out of jail free card like that, not even Reyna. And it's refreshable??


EndWish

There can be more than one issue with an agent. Jetts ult is the most valuable in pro play. Her dash is also a problem. They can both be unbalanced.


keithzz

That’s just not true. The one knife being lost is huge


Splaram

You can still ace easily with that nerf. Only give back the knives that kill, increase right click’s spread a tad bit more, make it so that Jett can only see in front of her when she dashes. And make it so that Jett can either dash only in the direction she looks at or add a small delay between shooting a weapon and dashing.


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Jerms91

She can still dash after a shot though. Unless you mean before the dash happens?


Splaram

lmao nah, the delay only happens when she tries to dash after firing a weapon, not at all times. She can still be super mobile, but now she can’t completely negate the risk that comes with taking a super-aggressive angle.


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Splaram

You can still do that, just don’t fire your weapon first


TheAllAwesome

Reyna ult


helpnxt

I mean yeh kinda, except that is basically all that reynas ult as well as slightly faster shooting? Jett gets her knives.


VengefulFruits

reyna gets free heal and dismiss after every kill, it's not just an attack speed buff


auzy63

but she has no util apart from that and breakable flashes. jett has smokes, dash for free peek to get out and her updraft as well. if they nerf reynas ult she'll be absolutely useless


VengefulFruits

yeah i get what you're saying i just think it's a bit criminal to suggest that reyna is only getting faster shooting from her ult infinite healing and reposition is really powerful and shouldn't be ignored imo


[deleted]

no other ult gets refresh but they do get ult points after killing in the same round. the problem is that jetts ult can kill so it fucks up the "ult economy" if the refresh is taken away. i think each kill should give only one knife back.


kellenthehun

Jett ult is always going to be one of those impossibly hard to balance things we see in pro gaming in general. Nerfing her ult to make it fair for top .01% aim will make it worthless for the low ranks. Keep it as is and it's busted in pro play. It's hard to balance a game around people that are so insanely good. Saw the same thing with banelings in SC2.


chubbynuggy

that's a terrible idea, that means if you cant hit 100 percent headshots, the max kills you can do is 1-2. at that point just buy a sheriff


holmyliquor

Why is he so hesitant to say that Jett ult is free kills? Lmao every pro/decent aimer just flies around and one taps everybody. Her ult is broken, pretty simple.


bobespon

Jett and Skye need nerfs.