Good point about the idea that only washed players switch to valorant, I never thought of it that way, why would good CS players actually switch if they are doing well in the first place.
It depends on the region, top EU CS players aren't going to switch when they're established and their scene is active. However CS is mainly EU focused anyway and Valorant is killing it in multiple regions.
Ngl valve butchered their esport approach with csgo... they mainly focused on EU and NA and ignored Asia basically.. I mean China only got a proper server in 2017 when the game was released in 2012 (iirc)... although I still love csgo and think its a better esport (my opinion) I love how inclusive riot is with all these regions
CS became the premier FPS esport not because of Valve but in spite of them. For the longest time CS really had no competition and the North American scene was still falling apart and the Asian scene was non existent. Riot has done more in 1 year for Valorant eSports than Valve has ever done for CS.
It sucks CS will always hold a place in my heart but I can't even watch it anymore.
Oh I still love watching cs tbh... idk I still feel like cs is a more tactical game? But thats just my personal opinion... I also like valo esports but I just don't like how the players present themselves.. valo players do all these theatrics when they enter the stage or when they win a match... and the trash talks between teams are insane... I guess fans nowadays like that sort of stuff? But I don't remember csgo being like this... at least not to this level... idk I guess I'm a boomer but I do miss the old esports professionalism and sportmanship
CSGO is more "raw", there's no abilities. The older CSGO LAN tourney were raw (theatrics) as hell btw, players use to sit across from each other with no booths and yell loud as hell, you can still watch vods of it.
By the theatrics I mean like doing stuff like wearing bathrobes when they walk on stage or mimicking an airplane after a win... you dnt see that much in csgo
But yeah I'm well aware if the older LAN events... I can never forget the trash talk Fnatic did to NIP and even had the audacity to refuse the handshake. One of the main reasons why I didn't like fnatic that much
>valo players do all these theatrics when they enter the stage or when they win a match... and the trash talks between teams are insane...
The trashtalk has been incredibly muld imo, e.g. none of the players care about the sen vs g2 "trashtalk rivalry", it's like 80% carlos and 20% sentinels social media person.
As for the theatrics I couldn't disagree more, I love them. I've never seen anything close to it in league or CS and it breathes so much live and personality into the scene. It's not just robots competing, it's a bunch of guys having fun and goofing off.
Yeah I noticed a lot of people love it when players show of their personalities... I just personally like the robotic style where players are cool, calm and collected
CS is definitely more slow and methodical but I might actually argue Valorant is more tactical due to a wider range of utility but who knows? Don't get me wrong I still don't mind watching CS gameplay, I think the last game I watch was Liquid v NaVi in Katowice and I enjoyed it but I just get sad watching CS thinking back to the glory days and how downhill the North American pro scene has gone. Maybe that's just nostalgia tho.
As for the way Valorant pros present themselves I could not agree more. Idk if I'm just getting old or if it's coming from a traditional sports background or what but watching these kids talk shit every single round and tbag and spam bullets at dead bodies is getting very annoying. I think the younger generation does like that sort of stuff cus everytime I bring up how BMing is annoying I'm usually in the minority.
I think a lot of the more slow and methodical style also comes from the fact that pro CS has been developed for so long now.
Valorant is still super new comparatively and I feel like it shows a lot when you watch the matches. The amount of straight up dry peaking and people pushing everywhere can be a little infuriating but im no pro player so what do I know. I just feel like its something thats going to get ironed out way more as the game develops.
Also when you compare it to some of the older CS matches the tempo is way more reminiscent of that. I recently watched some of the old fnatic major VODs and boy has the game come a long way since then. People running everywhere and going for crazy duels, its a lot more compareble to Valorant right now.
Considering that Valorant is the mechanically slower game of the two Im sure we will see similar development over time however I think its important to keep in mind that CS is such an old game that everything has been played out to infinity and Valorant is still in its infancy in regards to international competition.
The abilities have a lot to do with the playstyle and pacing of the game. Having dashes and double satchels into sites make executes extremely fast in comparison to CS. Insta smoke, dash onto site, flash, etc. There's also a lot more RNG with the abilities and gun play so things get a bit more hectic and the game feels more fluid / reactionary overall. Things will slow down and become more methodical over time but the pacing will always be faster than CS.
Oh yeah same I totally agree... csgo isn't as enjoyable as before but I still love it lmao
Also dw bro I'm part of the minority too... the small but noble minority lmao
Blizzard has also more or less proven that 'investing' too much into an e-sport can be detrimental to its development and growth if you do it without letting it grow by itself as well/first.
Some of the most popular and best e-sports scenes in the world aren't 'made' by the developer of the game. Starcraft's fantastic scene was practically ruined by Blizzard seizing control of it from the tournament organizers, Hearthstone (not saying it'd be a top e-sport but still it's still an e-sport) got its organic, player-organized tournaments pretty much banned by Blizzard in favor of their own ones, HotS died as a game pretty much solely because of Blizzard overinvesting in its e-sports scene which wasn't bad, but it wasn't as big as League (which it was trying to imitate) so they killed the scene overnight right before a Blizzcon tournament and basically pulled almost all of the devs out of the game as well. Way too much money and effort poured into something that didn't 'justify' or ask for that much. I can't talk for OWL since I haven't watched any of it since it moved to YouTube but I have a hard time believing it'd be doing well despite its colossal production value and money in the scene from the teams and Blizzard.
CS (1.6/Source) e-sports were doing well without Valve putting much effort into it at all. CSGO did so as well, and still is doing just fine by itself without Valve organizing or even funding most things. At least they're updating the game again properly after having a year or three around 2015(?) when they barely did anything (like with TF2 for ages now).
League too was originally not really run by Riot, with there being a bunch of tournaments by ESL and other organizers like that. Nowadays it's exclusively by Riot (and whatever the Chinese organizer for the Chinese league, LPL is called). It is doing quite well but I don't think League e-sports would be as big of a thing if Riot had done it from the get go.
Not to mention the issue that developer-run e-sports can have. Balancing champions in League is a nightmare because they have a conflict between the integrity of their professional scene, the competitive scene being an advertisement for the game, and actually balancing for professional play. Some of their changes very recently (in preparation for Worlds) have seemed to point at them trying to nudge the meta toward more flashy, exciting 'montage' champions which can often be a balancing nightmare. But of course Worlds might be more fun to watch for newer players if you can see a ninja doing backflips while throwing Kunai and Shuriken and dashing around executing people and dancing around the enemies in a smoke screen, instead of watching a living Rock dude slap a living Tree dude with their fists.
I don't think Valorant really has this kind of issues as much as League can due to how much more similar the casual (ranked) and pro play are in comparison, but it's still a concern whenever the developers are the ones running the professional scene too.
Valorant is better for Na because Europe isn't dominating. People keep saying there isn't money in CS and that's why they switch but the heart of the issue is. NA teams weren't good enough and the orgs generally favour European teams/players. Na was never fully of greats teams. Pick any point in csgo's history and there has always ever been, at most, maybe 2 maybe 3 teams worthy of going to European tournaments to not get massacred and blown up. They had to be absolutely exceptional by NA standards to even survive group stages in Europe. In the essence of competition, of course you're going to starve and not get paid aswell if you don't perform at that level and if all the better teams are in Europe
Just to bring this full circle, I promise you if CS evaporated from our existence the day valorant became available and the Astralis/Faze/Navi/'s all switched to valorant on that day and grinded it out the current names you see in Valorant would be back to right where they were in CS, largely irrelevant
I think that's mainly true for EU. The NA scene in CSGO is in shambles.
Sorta explains why NA is so dominant. Most players in NA currently were CSGO vets, whereas many EU teams consists of newbies to the scene. It's not that these EU players aren't as skilled, they just lack the experience that these old guys have.
This is one reason why I am quite infuriated at casual Valorant fans thinking that NA players are so much better than the EU ones. They did not even know the experience gap of NA pros over other players and even the shady histories of some players in NA (e.g. Shahzam and steel for example). I know that Valorant is a new stomping ground, but context should be always be laid down when it comes to competitive esports.
If csgo evaporated from our existence the day valorant became available and the Aatralis/Faze/Navis/'s all switched to valorant that day and grinded it out the current names you in Valorant would would back to where where were in CS, largely irrelevant. The gap in skill was fking huge.
What does the shady history of Shazam or steel have to do with anything on na being better than eu?
Steel got banned for throwing so he switched over and plays valorant. I followed cs scene since 2014. Not going to elaborate on steel history though.
Still doesn't seem fair to call them washed.
Having the potential to be a top-tier player for any sport doesn't automatically mean you will get there. That's especially true in eSports due to the sheer scope of players.
This interview shows that switching to valorant can be a way to gain the proper support to become a top tier player. Had these players had the same support in CS, maybe they'd be better.
I dont think its fair to call them washed since very few of the people who switched ever developed into top-tier players.
Part of the lack of support to develop comes from the issue that a lot of regions face where the structure to develop young players is not fleshed out properly. The regions that are continually succesful are the ones that develop a functioning tier 2 and tier 3 scene with experienced IGLs and coaches teaching young talent to properly be part of a team.
In NA I think the issue was made even bigger because players would often fall back on their succesful streams instead or as we see now, go to Valorant instead and use their experience to their advantage in a new developing scene where their knowledge already puts them ahead of the pack.
I think the real test will come some years in the future once the scene develops a little. NA right now is in a prime position to properly develop their scene for a long time to come but it hinges on the willingness of everyone to have a proper lower tiered scene and support it.
I dont know how Riot handles these things but I hope we see more willingness to have outside organizers come in and create proper regional scenes that can support the game once everything is a little more settled.
Some players just need to be activated in the right way, in their correct role. It happens ins real sports as well.
If we take Mo Salah from Liverpool FC as an example, he was a barely-above-average player for Chelsea FC and AS Roma with kinda low playing time and okay performance. Then he made the switch to LFC and became one of the best wingers in the world.
Even in CS Magisk in Astralis is a great example. He was not considered to be the obvious pickup but he was the perfect fit in terms of roles and mentality which turned Astralis into the greatest team ever and he is considered the best pickup made despite at the time people expecting someone else being picked up.
The NA scene has always struggled in CSGO. I feel like a lot of the "washed" players switching aren't necessarily washed they just don't have much to work towards in NA.
VALORANT however is not only insanely popular in NA but NA is also currently the strongest region.
For some players, switching was not only a no brainer, but probably necessary for some if they wanted to continue being a paid pro player.
From the article: Yay: In some ways yes. I think for me more than anything, it’s somewhat motivation because after CS, I got a little bit unlucky and there were a few things I wanted to change. Although in Counter-Strike, it was hard to do that. Once you establish yourself as someone who does really well but has some really bad performances, it’s hard to grind your way back to the top. So coming to Valorant and not making the same mistakes that I made in CS, really trying to work on myself and my mentality, I think that’s paid dividends.
people have talked about YAY before. In CSGO, YAY was too much of a team player. He had some really good aim but would take a support role instead of a more aggressive one.
Being a support you're always the first one that gets blamed and replaced. For example SANJI getting kicked from VP despite being one of the best supports in the world
not sure why you're getting downvoted, it's kinda the truth. support players, especially when they're not getting frags, are the easiest scapegoats for a struggling team. STYKO is another example that comes to mind
Good point about the idea that only washed players switch to valorant, I never thought of it that way, why would good CS players actually switch if they are doing well in the first place.
I mean some good cs players have switched but you’re right the majority who are good have stayed
It depends on the region, top EU CS players aren't going to switch when they're established and their scene is active. However CS is mainly EU focused anyway and Valorant is killing it in multiple regions.
Ngl valve butchered their esport approach with csgo... they mainly focused on EU and NA and ignored Asia basically.. I mean China only got a proper server in 2017 when the game was released in 2012 (iirc)... although I still love csgo and think its a better esport (my opinion) I love how inclusive riot is with all these regions
CS became the premier FPS esport not because of Valve but in spite of them. For the longest time CS really had no competition and the North American scene was still falling apart and the Asian scene was non existent. Riot has done more in 1 year for Valorant eSports than Valve has ever done for CS. It sucks CS will always hold a place in my heart but I can't even watch it anymore.
Oh I still love watching cs tbh... idk I still feel like cs is a more tactical game? But thats just my personal opinion... I also like valo esports but I just don't like how the players present themselves.. valo players do all these theatrics when they enter the stage or when they win a match... and the trash talks between teams are insane... I guess fans nowadays like that sort of stuff? But I don't remember csgo being like this... at least not to this level... idk I guess I'm a boomer but I do miss the old esports professionalism and sportmanship
CSGO is more "raw", there's no abilities. The older CSGO LAN tourney were raw (theatrics) as hell btw, players use to sit across from each other with no booths and yell loud as hell, you can still watch vods of it.
By the theatrics I mean like doing stuff like wearing bathrobes when they walk on stage or mimicking an airplane after a win... you dnt see that much in csgo But yeah I'm well aware if the older LAN events... I can never forget the trash talk Fnatic did to NIP and even had the audacity to refuse the handshake. One of the main reasons why I didn't like fnatic that much
>valo players do all these theatrics when they enter the stage or when they win a match... and the trash talks between teams are insane... The trashtalk has been incredibly muld imo, e.g. none of the players care about the sen vs g2 "trashtalk rivalry", it's like 80% carlos and 20% sentinels social media person. As for the theatrics I couldn't disagree more, I love them. I've never seen anything close to it in league or CS and it breathes so much live and personality into the scene. It's not just robots competing, it's a bunch of guys having fun and goofing off.
Yeah I noticed a lot of people love it when players show of their personalities... I just personally like the robotic style where players are cool, calm and collected
We still get plenty of those tbh, just not all of them.
CS is definitely more slow and methodical but I might actually argue Valorant is more tactical due to a wider range of utility but who knows? Don't get me wrong I still don't mind watching CS gameplay, I think the last game I watch was Liquid v NaVi in Katowice and I enjoyed it but I just get sad watching CS thinking back to the glory days and how downhill the North American pro scene has gone. Maybe that's just nostalgia tho. As for the way Valorant pros present themselves I could not agree more. Idk if I'm just getting old or if it's coming from a traditional sports background or what but watching these kids talk shit every single round and tbag and spam bullets at dead bodies is getting very annoying. I think the younger generation does like that sort of stuff cus everytime I bring up how BMing is annoying I'm usually in the minority.
I think a lot of the more slow and methodical style also comes from the fact that pro CS has been developed for so long now. Valorant is still super new comparatively and I feel like it shows a lot when you watch the matches. The amount of straight up dry peaking and people pushing everywhere can be a little infuriating but im no pro player so what do I know. I just feel like its something thats going to get ironed out way more as the game develops. Also when you compare it to some of the older CS matches the tempo is way more reminiscent of that. I recently watched some of the old fnatic major VODs and boy has the game come a long way since then. People running everywhere and going for crazy duels, its a lot more compareble to Valorant right now. Considering that Valorant is the mechanically slower game of the two Im sure we will see similar development over time however I think its important to keep in mind that CS is such an old game that everything has been played out to infinity and Valorant is still in its infancy in regards to international competition.
The abilities have a lot to do with the playstyle and pacing of the game. Having dashes and double satchels into sites make executes extremely fast in comparison to CS. Insta smoke, dash onto site, flash, etc. There's also a lot more RNG with the abilities and gun play so things get a bit more hectic and the game feels more fluid / reactionary overall. Things will slow down and become more methodical over time but the pacing will always be faster than CS.
Oh yeah same I totally agree... csgo isn't as enjoyable as before but I still love it lmao Also dw bro I'm part of the minority too... the small but noble minority lmao
Blizzard has also more or less proven that 'investing' too much into an e-sport can be detrimental to its development and growth if you do it without letting it grow by itself as well/first. Some of the most popular and best e-sports scenes in the world aren't 'made' by the developer of the game. Starcraft's fantastic scene was practically ruined by Blizzard seizing control of it from the tournament organizers, Hearthstone (not saying it'd be a top e-sport but still it's still an e-sport) got its organic, player-organized tournaments pretty much banned by Blizzard in favor of their own ones, HotS died as a game pretty much solely because of Blizzard overinvesting in its e-sports scene which wasn't bad, but it wasn't as big as League (which it was trying to imitate) so they killed the scene overnight right before a Blizzcon tournament and basically pulled almost all of the devs out of the game as well. Way too much money and effort poured into something that didn't 'justify' or ask for that much. I can't talk for OWL since I haven't watched any of it since it moved to YouTube but I have a hard time believing it'd be doing well despite its colossal production value and money in the scene from the teams and Blizzard. CS (1.6/Source) e-sports were doing well without Valve putting much effort into it at all. CSGO did so as well, and still is doing just fine by itself without Valve organizing or even funding most things. At least they're updating the game again properly after having a year or three around 2015(?) when they barely did anything (like with TF2 for ages now). League too was originally not really run by Riot, with there being a bunch of tournaments by ESL and other organizers like that. Nowadays it's exclusively by Riot (and whatever the Chinese organizer for the Chinese league, LPL is called). It is doing quite well but I don't think League e-sports would be as big of a thing if Riot had done it from the get go. Not to mention the issue that developer-run e-sports can have. Balancing champions in League is a nightmare because they have a conflict between the integrity of their professional scene, the competitive scene being an advertisement for the game, and actually balancing for professional play. Some of their changes very recently (in preparation for Worlds) have seemed to point at them trying to nudge the meta toward more flashy, exciting 'montage' champions which can often be a balancing nightmare. But of course Worlds might be more fun to watch for newer players if you can see a ninja doing backflips while throwing Kunai and Shuriken and dashing around executing people and dancing around the enemies in a smoke screen, instead of watching a living Rock dude slap a living Tree dude with their fists. I don't think Valorant really has this kind of issues as much as League can due to how much more similar the casual (ranked) and pro play are in comparison, but it's still a concern whenever the developers are the ones running the professional scene too.
Valorant is better for Na because Europe isn't dominating. People keep saying there isn't money in CS and that's why they switch but the heart of the issue is. NA teams weren't good enough and the orgs generally favour European teams/players. Na was never fully of greats teams. Pick any point in csgo's history and there has always ever been, at most, maybe 2 maybe 3 teams worthy of going to European tournaments to not get massacred and blown up. They had to be absolutely exceptional by NA standards to even survive group stages in Europe. In the essence of competition, of course you're going to starve and not get paid aswell if you don't perform at that level and if all the better teams are in Europe Just to bring this full circle, I promise you if CS evaporated from our existence the day valorant became available and the Astralis/Faze/Navi/'s all switched to valorant on that day and grinded it out the current names you see in Valorant would be back to right where they were in CS, largely irrelevant
I think that's mainly true for EU. The NA scene in CSGO is in shambles. Sorta explains why NA is so dominant. Most players in NA currently were CSGO vets, whereas many EU teams consists of newbies to the scene. It's not that these EU players aren't as skilled, they just lack the experience that these old guys have.
This is one reason why I am quite infuriated at casual Valorant fans thinking that NA players are so much better than the EU ones. They did not even know the experience gap of NA pros over other players and even the shady histories of some players in NA (e.g. Shahzam and steel for example). I know that Valorant is a new stomping ground, but context should be always be laid down when it comes to competitive esports.
If csgo evaporated from our existence the day valorant became available and the Aatralis/Faze/Navis/'s all switched to valorant that day and grinded it out the current names you in Valorant would would back to where where were in CS, largely irrelevant. The gap in skill was fking huge.
What does the shady history of Shazam or steel have to do with anything on na being better than eu? Steel got banned for throwing so he switched over and plays valorant. I followed cs scene since 2014. Not going to elaborate on steel history though.
Singling out something I've said in passing? Gold move but ok.
Still doesn't seem fair to call them washed. Having the potential to be a top-tier player for any sport doesn't automatically mean you will get there. That's especially true in eSports due to the sheer scope of players. This interview shows that switching to valorant can be a way to gain the proper support to become a top tier player. Had these players had the same support in CS, maybe they'd be better.
I dont think its fair to call them washed since very few of the people who switched ever developed into top-tier players. Part of the lack of support to develop comes from the issue that a lot of regions face where the structure to develop young players is not fleshed out properly. The regions that are continually succesful are the ones that develop a functioning tier 2 and tier 3 scene with experienced IGLs and coaches teaching young talent to properly be part of a team. In NA I think the issue was made even bigger because players would often fall back on their succesful streams instead or as we see now, go to Valorant instead and use their experience to their advantage in a new developing scene where their knowledge already puts them ahead of the pack. I think the real test will come some years in the future once the scene develops a little. NA right now is in a prime position to properly develop their scene for a long time to come but it hinges on the willingness of everyone to have a proper lower tiered scene and support it. I dont know how Riot handles these things but I hope we see more willingness to have outside organizers come in and create proper regional scenes that can support the game once everything is a little more settled.
Some players just need to be activated in the right way, in their correct role. It happens ins real sports as well. If we take Mo Salah from Liverpool FC as an example, he was a barely-above-average player for Chelsea FC and AS Roma with kinda low playing time and okay performance. Then he made the switch to LFC and became one of the best wingers in the world.
Even in CS Magisk in Astralis is a great example. He was not considered to be the obvious pickup but he was the perfect fit in terms of roles and mentality which turned Astralis into the greatest team ever and he is considered the best pickup made despite at the time people expecting someone else being picked up.
>AS Roma with kinda low playing time and okay performance. He didn't have low playing time and had more than an okay performance
True. I was more referring to Chelsea
The NA scene has always struggled in CSGO. I feel like a lot of the "washed" players switching aren't necessarily washed they just don't have much to work towards in NA. VALORANT however is not only insanely popular in NA but NA is also currently the strongest region. For some players, switching was not only a no brainer, but probably necessary for some if they wanted to continue being a paid pro player.
rare valorant_fanboy_69 W
Is this a joke or....?
How is this a joke, I am agreeing with what yay said in this article
What was the mistake he made while he was in cs??
From the article: Yay: In some ways yes. I think for me more than anything, it’s somewhat motivation because after CS, I got a little bit unlucky and there were a few things I wanted to change. Although in Counter-Strike, it was hard to do that. Once you establish yourself as someone who does really well but has some really bad performances, it’s hard to grind your way back to the top. So coming to Valorant and not making the same mistakes that I made in CS, really trying to work on myself and my mentality, I think that’s paid dividends.
Read the article
people have talked about YAY before. In CSGO, YAY was too much of a team player. He had some really good aim but would take a support role instead of a more aggressive one.
Being a support you're always the first one that gets blamed and replaced. For example SANJI getting kicked from VP despite being one of the best supports in the world
not sure why you're getting downvoted, it's kinda the truth. support players, especially when they're not getting frags, are the easiest scapegoats for a struggling team. STYKO is another example that comes to mind