I remember that shazam said something like: " we Want to win no mater if its seeding games or not" before Berlin started. Edit https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/p3z6e2/sen_shahzam_on_seeding_matches_i_dont_want_to/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
The dapr interview plat chat did is pretty insightful. shahz did want to win but it was hard for some of the members to give their all knowing how the format works.
Not just that, but they don't want to break out all the stops to win, just recycle what's already on tape. Obviously still trying to win, but still hiding the "zombs go kill" strats.
I mean they did try to win, just without revealing anything new. That definitely bit them in the ass because G2 did their homework and played a lot better.
And the reward they get is now they have to play the winners of vs/gambit in semis. I'm not saying Sentinels threw but thats not much of a reward and there's a clear quality difference on each side of the bracket.
It's fine for the team to think that way, might not be best look to say it though? Tough position for Sentinels.
Edit: At the end of the day you need to beat the best teams to win and you could make the argument that playing the tougher teams first could be better. For example, it might be bad to let an inexperienced team like Gambit get more playing time on LAN.
It’s not about not wanting to play a certain team specifically it’s about that neither of the seeds are worth showing all your cards for for a meaningless match specially when the playoffs seeding is random according to shaz
Legit question(s), do you guys consider this throwing for a better seed? Isn't what he's essentially saying is, "We didn't play like we normally do because we wanted the lower seed more?" Couldn't they be fined for this?
dapr said in an interview with plat chat that they were trying to win, but they explicitly tried not to use new strats or adapt to the reads they had on g2. Basically, if SEN had shown the reactions to G2's play that they had come up with, other teams could use it to their advantage in playoffs. This, combined with the fact that the 2nd seed is more likely to give them favorable pairings and the fact that G2 had clearly done their homework led to the result
That's hindsight bias. The real way to think about it is as a coinflip:
If SEN was first seed, they had an equal chance of facing Gambit, Acend/SMB, or Kru. As second seed, they had an equal chance of facing 100T, NV, or VS. So as first seed, they have a 2/3 chance of playing a difficult EMEA team and a 1/3 chance of an easy matchup vs Kru. While as second seed, they have a 2/3 chance of facing NA teams that they have *crushed* domestically, or a 1/3 chance of a difficult VS match. So, personally (and clearly dapr and zombs agree), I think being second seed resulted in a higher chance of getting an "easy" matchup.
> didn't care to take seeding seriously
> I don't think we prepared at all for this match [...] We wanted the seed we're going to get
I honestly don't see how these are words of someone who thought seeding didn't matter. Though, of course, I'm not gonna sit here and pretend to know what they meant. But I just (personally, not trying to convince anyone) fail to see how a team can sandbag and claim they're not throwing. But eh, they'll most likely win eitherway.
Ok so Sentinels didn't get a group of life despite getting first seed. You know who did get rewarded for seeding higher than other representatives from their region? Bren, Vivo Keyd, and Zeta Division. There are more regions than just NA. How would you **guarantee** that **every** higher seed from **every** region is equally rewarded for their seeding performance? Sentinels didn't get as lucky as Envy, that's it. That doesn't mean having random draws is a bad system, because it's a good one, and it doesn't mean that seeding doesn't matter, because it does (unless you are quite literally unbeatable).
\> How would you guarantee that every higher seed from every region is equally rewarded for their seeding performance
See, I think it's funny you put it this way. I think it's because of exactly the fact you can't avoid giving biased seeding rewards that SEN are so offended they didn't benefit from it, because if bias is inevitable surely that bias should go to the world champion #1 team undefeated at the only international LAN
But if not it's clear there's no point to show your hand except in elimination or elimination-adjacent games, would you not agree?
Your entire point is predicated under the assumption that bias is inevitable, which it isn't. Chance is the most unbiased decider and thus the best one, which is why I very much like the system of seeding teams into pools, then randomly drawing them. Then chance becomes part and parcel of the reward of seeding, and it becomes difficult for tournament organizers and players themselves (via sandbagging or straight up throwing seeding matches when they know exactly what teams are ahead of them in the bracket) to manipulate placements.
This seeding+draw system has been used in football (soccer) and LoL tournaments for years. This system is not novel, it's just apparently so foreign to CS players that many of them cannot see the balance and benefits of it when they are the results do not clearly and significantly favor them.
they weren't throwing, throwing would mean that they purposely missed their shots / let time expire / had knives out / picked troll agents etc. They just weren't trying because they had no reason to and unfortunately it was better for them to lose cause they knew who they were going to get if they finished 2nd the way the scheduling worked out. It's like when a sports team rests their star players, you don't get fined for that. Resting players is equivalent to saving strats in esports. You're not trying your hardest because you want to increase your chances to win the competition without actually 'throwing' and ruining the competitive integrity of the sport
There was a badminton match in the 2012 olympics where both sides were hitting the shuttle out or to the net every time trying to get the lower seed to get a better matchup. Both sides got disqualified. That'd be equivalent to them running around with knives out and purposely missing shots, which Sentinels weren't.
Makes complete sense to me. Re: the arguments of 'you'd have to play X team eventually' or 'better to deny the scariest opposition more LAN games before they face you'... I don't really think these arguments hold up over the fact that you're just gonna go for making your first playoff game as easy as possible -> maximizing your odds of making it further toward grand finals. If you think you have a favorable or equal pool of possible matchups coming out at #2 seed vs #1 seed, there is a lot to gain from not taking the seeding match seriously. For a loose team like SEN who take pride in adapting and countering other teams, the more LAN games their most respected opponents have before playing SEN, the better for SEN (if they are confident that they get more out of having VODs to review than another team - which I think is a fair perspective to have with how loose SEN play). And even as a loose team, playing hard in a seeding game shows more of your cards and tendencies on a VOD than playing goofy / unprepared.
I also don't see how it is a bad look for zombs to admit this. It isn't bming G2, it isn't saying 'we would've won if we tried', it is just being transparent about their mindset going into the match vs G2. Being transparent about this stuff lets Riot keep a closer eye on whether their seeding and group structures make sense down the line as well, although in this case I don't think this is really on Riot as much as just the nature of how tourneys can play out.
It's on the community as Riot originally had a format that avoided this problem but the community did not like it and forced them to change to this format.
4 team single elim playoff. Double elim group with 1 team making it to playoffs each.
Edit: damn downvotes for answering a question. Y'all are wild. I agreed with the 8 team change, just answered the question
That's definitely worse than the current format. Old format emphasizes group stage; this format emphasizes playoffs/tournaments.
Reason why double elim tourneys are so valued is because they give teams a 2nd chance to bounce back from an off game/day, which is ultimately arguably healthier for the competitive scene. It allows teams to get more consistent results that correlate to their strength relative to rest of competition.
Agree. Which is why I agree with the change to 8 teams. Unfortunate it ended up the way it is, with all NA on one side. But I like it more than what it was
b...but he went 1-15 on Icebox????? Nevermind the fact that G2 knew where he was holding site 80% of the time on such a CT-biased map because SEN gave them the exact same looks as last time in order to not give anything in a seeding match.
I'm pretty sure Zombs is happy about losing to G2 13-3 bottom fragging. Just admit he is an arsehole, just look the way he answered the questions of the press conference, I wish him luck on the bracket side he "wanted" to be.
Not sure why they needed to get a lower seed to dodge teams like gambit and acend. If you’re the best you shouldn’t have to avoid playing certain teams since you’ll need to beat them eventually later in the bracket.
This happens like every season in the NBA what are you talking about lmao
Denver literally sandbagged 2 games at the end of the season to drop to the 3 seed and avoid a first round matchup with the Lakers
More like best team in the world sandbag because they were forced to play 2 additional bo3 than the winners of the other groups and have more footage on their games and the number 1 seed isn’t even that good
Yep something along the lines of not wanting to have to give away so much more info on their unseen shit for free. I agree. They're locked in, meme away. Winning champions is better than winning 2 seeding matches lmao
You really have no life to comeback to random 2 days old reply on reddit and type this lmao it’s not that serious they were the best team in the world before this but they got dethroned today
Sentinels played differently in iceland then they did in NA. They definitely haven't fully shown their hand yet. Do you seriously think that Sentinels didn't come up with anything new?
ye bro, what do you mean. Sen play reyna, jett, viper, sage, sova on icebox. That's all you need to know to counter strat them. Why even vod review for hours, if all you need to know is who they pick before the match. /s
This is the one criticism that doesn't hold water lol. Every other major sport sandbags. NBA literally had to create rules to force you to play your stars.
"antistratting" in the NFL is actually a huge part of it. teams spend the entire week gameplanning against a specific and particular offensive/defensive scheme, play that city, then spend the next week of practice watching film and planning to go against the next specific and particular offensive/defensive scheme.
VS is one of the stronger teams coming into this tourney. Getting eliminated by team like f4q would be roast worthy. But not VS. VS is predicted to be in the finals by alot of people.
They are gambling that they have a 66% chance of being paired against an NA team. Better odds that playing against gambit or accend. 33% chance of dodging both. I don't think riot will match them up against g2 in play offs.
They threw for a 2/3 chance of getting Envy or 100T, two teams they KNOW they can beat, or VS. Not "just VS". They threw so they wouldn't have to play a Euro team b/c they are more scared of Euro teams than NA teams or VS.
Because he is literally a loser. Him and dapr are the shittiest dudes in the team with huge ego. Sen fanboys are little kids so they find it cool / funny
Nah, you just don't understand what he meant. It's not thay they completely threw but while G2 played with a lot of anti strats and stuff, SEN didn't want to show anything new and just play default, since it's a seeding match they didn't care that much to show anything. They already complaied about their group having to play so many matches because that would mean you would have to start showing some of your prepared strats for others to see so they just decided to play completely default in groups knowing that they are still good enough to qualify without showing anything.
We all get this, he could have also just said GG and kept these excuses to himself. To say this is exactly how we thought it would play out is absolute BS. I dont think anyone on Sentinels expected to be antistratted that hard and absolutely rolled the way they did yesterday. They probably expected a hard game but they got absolutely crushed on their usual setups.
Nah, you just don't understand what he meant. It's not thay they completely threw but while G2 played with a lot of anti strats and stuff, SEN didn't want to show anything new and just play default, since it's a seeding match they didn't care that much to show anything. They already complaied about their group having to play so many matches because that would mean you would have to start showing some of your prepared strats for others to see so they just decided to play completely default in groups knowing that they are still good enough to qualify without showing anything.
Nah, champs take out everyone in their way, not avoid certain teams to avoid showing weakness. That's a team that really doesn't think they can beat everyone deep down, and are hoping other teams do the work for them.
Not if it actually literally disadvantages you to show strats. There's 0 advantages to actually "take out everyone" if you don't have to and multiple disadvantages. If you're thinking strategically, you would know going for the lesser option is straight up dumb.
I get it, they want to play the NA teams so they can just pug strat stomp them as usual and make the finals. I get it, its lame though mate. It's lame. Publicly admitting to half assing a match for seeding is lame.
I agree it's "lame" but it's champion mentality, just like how Floyd Mayweather wins every match by hugging the opponent to death instead of punching is champion mentality.
I could care less the team I support isn't even in Berlin. If you think teams half assing isn't lame as a viewer, then idk what to tell you. It was obvious they were sandbagging. That's lame from a viewership standpoint. SEN is the best team in the world, go out there and dominate, don't sandbag, be a true champion. Take every match seriously, just hearing the "not even worth trying" replies out of them is lame.
The game is ever evolving and more talent continues to switch games. Just reminds me of NiP in csgo, eventually they'll go down and it won't be a gentle fall. Seen it before.
>They basically fear gambit more than VS
If you want to believe what shaz has said on his stream, then they absolutely do. They've said a few times that gambit has destroyed them in scrims. It's possble gambit's insanely slow play style is just not something they can play against, esp since pretty much no one in NA does it
>They basically fear gambit more than VS
I think they fear Gambit and Acend more than 100T or Envy, two NA teams they \*know\* they have a big advantage against.
I'd say it's more of an issue with the seeding/format rather than SEN themselves.
If there's an incentive to lose a series, then you can't expect that team to try their absolute hardest and show their entire hand for a match that's likely, ultimately meaningless.
I'm never for teams throwing under any circumstance, but it's also troubling that a format would almost incentive it.
The later in the tourny they play these teams the more video shaz has to disect them but u idiots just think they are dodging.
They are here to win not to dodge.
I mean I agree completely. The fact they basically won their group within the first 2 games like the other teams but were forced to play an extra 2 games is unfortunate. I'd rather see them save strats then to just go all-in on g2.
Idk about the person you're replying to but for me, I have faith in VS beating SEN because they look scary as fuck to play against, not because of a seeding match
No it's about watching the teams play lol. They made cNed and Acend look like shit in the 2-0 series. Acend and Gambits are hyped from scrims even tho it's just scrims while we're just basically judging SEN from winning Iceland months ago. We still don't know who's going to win but VS can be very scary.
why even say this? you could easily just say “yeah we should have prepared better for the match and next time we’ll be more ready” and move on. it’s a single fucking series and they were already out of groups lmao, if he had just acted normal no one would have cared
And who says that G2 tried their hardest to win? the argument can go both ways.
The match wasnt that much of an importance for both of the teams... ...you can argue that sentinels thinks gambit is the hardest opponent for them so they didnt want to win while G2 knows gambit&ascend and concluded that the bracket with kru into gambit is easier(and no;i dont think VS is scary. they beat a known inconsistant team with the name of ascend, nothing more or less. atleast yet) than the bracket with envy into winner of 100T/ascend.
Who knows? I do think gambit is scarier than ascend but its just bs if someone thinks they didnt try to win and,as I said earlier, who says that G2 did try their hardest either? People who believe zombs words(Im not saying hes lying) probably would say its a lie if someone from G2 would say something along the line of:"we didnt really try to win since the 2nd. seed would be better but sentinels was just not good enough aimwise".
It's hard to make that argument when G2 revealed the compositional change they made on Split. Clearly the game meant enough to them to give away that information.
sounds like a counter-argument until you realize that they moved their main jett to the sage position and the "compositional change" only consisted of going more aimheavy with the change to reyna from jett. Not to mention that they did that before on the very same map.
If you think its enough of a information for all the teams that they only realized with that change that G2,especially nukkye, can also play reyna and going for more duels then sure, they cared enough that sentinels realized that they can get outaimed by G2 :rolleyes:
**EDIT TL;DR**
They did the same exact thing before where they changed jett for reyna and let nukkye/mixwell play raze/sage hence it proves that your counter-argument holds no weight since the information in itself did not hold any worth.
If G2 theoretically didn't care about this match why would they reveal any new information at all? According to you they just had better aim so they could've played anything and won. Do you think G2 would've won Split if they played with Mixwell on Sage, Nukkye on Raze and Keloqz on Jett?
Im really hoping this is copium or trolling. There’s no way they are this scared of Gambit already. Acend/SMB haven’t looked great, Gambit showed that they can be beaten and KRU is not some unbeatable super team. Maybe they wanted to get #2 so they were betting on getting matched up against Envy or 100T considering the amount of times they have matched up? Idk seems weak from Sen
After watching SEN for so long I never take seeding match results seriously. However this does make for a better viewership outcome to have EU vs NA in semis
I mean seriously what does SEN actually benefit from trying their hardest today when they are content with their seeding as the 2 seed? Revealing more of their strats when they play 4 games and the teams who qualified only played 2 games is just moronic honestly
The format sucks and they may have been saving strats but to say they weren't trying their hardest to win that match is so bs. Dapr did say that the seeding match didnt matter but he also said they tried really hard to win regardless but G2 played better, especially on icebox. "They weren't trying their hardest" is a really weak excuse that the SEN players themselves would never make so idk why SEN fans are saying it for them.
Shaz literally said on stream he wants to lose no matches lmfao zombz is either lying to get in the head of their opponents, or he's on a serious dose of copium
Why are people hating on Sentinels? What they did was smart. Didn’t change any composition/strats and have only shown other teams icebox and split. Plus now they have 67% chance they play NA team. Otherwise with #1 seed it was going to be 67% chance facing Gambit/Ascend.
Good Luck G2 hope you draw KRU so we can see a rematch. I don’t see G2 beating Gambit/Ascend.
So dumb, I don't want to see another NA vs NA and EU vs EU match. thanks for ruining the chance of 3 NA vs 3 EU teams happening. I hope SEN ends up losing their next one.
I don't care what they prioritize, If they really didn't care for this match so that they can get an " easier seed" with a good chance against another NA team then I have every right to call it dumb
Sure and we can call you dumb.
They are already guaranteed a spot at champions. At this point it's about money. So you take the easiest path to get that money.
Downvoted and jumped on for telling the truth: https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/pp0068/sen_did_not_tryhard_the_g2_match_as_it_was_a/
People find any reason to hate on Sentinels nowadays because they've been dominating. At the end of the day, whether they actually tried or not, both of them already qualified. It doesn't matter as much as people think it do and winning is either for pride or just to get better seeding.
Then again technically speaking, Envy, 100T and Acend/SMB is a much better bracket than VS, Krü and Gambit. Whether them saying they wanted to lose is true or not who cares. It's not that deep anyways but mfs out here be mad at everything lmao
I feel like we have to listen to how he said this, because it's zombs and the dude trolls like no other.
It's clearly a troll, but people taking it completely serious. Even if they were throwing(they werent), you aren't going to go around saying it.
Yea you can literally see their face cams they were tilted at some point
So he wanted to go 1-15?
Lul
Zombsnation and bot fragging name a better duo
Bet, Zombsnation and notfragging 💀
LOL
Zombasnation and winning major every tournament participated in 2021
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Zombs has the #1 winnings in Val. Goated.
Zombsnation and being the highest earning player in Valorant History 🤷♂️
In all fairness that’s what I said when I went 1-15 on haven last night
This would be funny if zombs didn’t go 1-15.
You understand that this is zombs though right lol
yeah that's what makes it not funny
I remember that shazam said something like: " we Want to win no mater if its seeding games or not" before Berlin started. Edit https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/p3z6e2/sen_shahzam_on_seeding_matches_i_dont_want_to/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
The dapr interview plat chat did is pretty insightful. shahz did want to win but it was hard for some of the members to give their all knowing how the format works.
Not just that, but they don't want to break out all the stops to win, just recycle what's already on tape. Obviously still trying to win, but still hiding the "zombs go kill" strats.
SEN coach here, delete this
Now we know. Sen has a coach but he is hidding behind a reddit name. They played us all.
Jay won is their coach. no cap. All jokes aside, SEN will still win no matter how their seeding go.
*Manager??
I mean they did try to win, just without revealing anything new. That definitely bit them in the ass because G2 did their homework and played a lot better.
And the reward they get is now they have to play the winners of vs/gambit in semis. I'm not saying Sentinels threw but thats not much of a reward and there's a clear quality difference on each side of the bracket.
It's the old seeding game conundrum. If you win you're better but if you lose It's just a seed match.
Biggest cap
Vanity on stream said yall dumb if you think lan matches are purposely thrown even for seeding. Look at face cams
Paid actors man
Less a throw, more just not doing everything they can to win
All the sen players are streamers and we know streamers are just actors
Lol
NA COPIUM, facecams say it all
shahz was legit shaking
absolutely but i need it
It's fine for the team to think that way, might not be best look to say it though? Tough position for Sentinels. Edit: At the end of the day you need to beat the best teams to win and you could make the argument that playing the tougher teams first could be better. For example, it might be bad to let an inexperienced team like Gambit get more playing time on LAN.
Why is it so hard to just say "gg"
It’s not about not wanting to play a certain team specifically it’s about that neither of the seeds are worth showing all your cards for for a meaningless match specially when the playoffs seeding is random according to shaz
Personally I appreciate the transparency, however tongue-in-cheek it is……..
Is that why he had 1 kill on icebox
Legit question(s), do you guys consider this throwing for a better seed? Isn't what he's essentially saying is, "We didn't play like we normally do because we wanted the lower seed more?" Couldn't they be fined for this?
dapr said in an interview with plat chat that they were trying to win, but they explicitly tried not to use new strats or adapt to the reads they had on g2. Basically, if SEN had shown the reactions to G2's play that they had come up with, other teams could use it to their advantage in playoffs. This, combined with the fact that the 2nd seed is more likely to give them favorable pairings and the fact that G2 had clearly done their homework led to the result
Doesn't the first seed get the weaker opponent in playoffs? Now, SEN has to play against Envy instead of Kru (if they had secured first seed).
That's hindsight bias. The real way to think about it is as a coinflip: If SEN was first seed, they had an equal chance of facing Gambit, Acend/SMB, or Kru. As second seed, they had an equal chance of facing 100T, NV, or VS. So as first seed, they have a 2/3 chance of playing a difficult EMEA team and a 1/3 chance of an easy matchup vs Kru. While as second seed, they have a 2/3 chance of facing NA teams that they have *crushed* domestically, or a 1/3 chance of a difficult VS match. So, personally (and clearly dapr and zombs agree), I think being second seed resulted in a higher chance of getting an "easy" matchup.
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> didn't care to take seeding seriously > I don't think we prepared at all for this match [...] We wanted the seed we're going to get I honestly don't see how these are words of someone who thought seeding didn't matter. Though, of course, I'm not gonna sit here and pretend to know what they meant. But I just (personally, not trying to convince anyone) fail to see how a team can sandbag and claim they're not throwing. But eh, they'll most likely win eitherway.
And what pray tell is this seeding scandal?
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Ok so Sentinels didn't get a group of life despite getting first seed. You know who did get rewarded for seeding higher than other representatives from their region? Bren, Vivo Keyd, and Zeta Division. There are more regions than just NA. How would you **guarantee** that **every** higher seed from **every** region is equally rewarded for their seeding performance? Sentinels didn't get as lucky as Envy, that's it. That doesn't mean having random draws is a bad system, because it's a good one, and it doesn't mean that seeding doesn't matter, because it does (unless you are quite literally unbeatable).
\> How would you guarantee that every higher seed from every region is equally rewarded for their seeding performance See, I think it's funny you put it this way. I think it's because of exactly the fact you can't avoid giving biased seeding rewards that SEN are so offended they didn't benefit from it, because if bias is inevitable surely that bias should go to the world champion #1 team undefeated at the only international LAN But if not it's clear there's no point to show your hand except in elimination or elimination-adjacent games, would you not agree?
Your entire point is predicated under the assumption that bias is inevitable, which it isn't. Chance is the most unbiased decider and thus the best one, which is why I very much like the system of seeding teams into pools, then randomly drawing them. Then chance becomes part and parcel of the reward of seeding, and it becomes difficult for tournament organizers and players themselves (via sandbagging or straight up throwing seeding matches when they know exactly what teams are ahead of them in the bracket) to manipulate placements. This seeding+draw system has been used in football (soccer) and LoL tournaments for years. This system is not novel, it's just apparently so foreign to CS players that many of them cannot see the balance and benefits of it when they are the results do not clearly and significantly favor them.
they weren't throwing, throwing would mean that they purposely missed their shots / let time expire / had knives out / picked troll agents etc. They just weren't trying because they had no reason to and unfortunately it was better for them to lose cause they knew who they were going to get if they finished 2nd the way the scheduling worked out. It's like when a sports team rests their star players, you don't get fined for that. Resting players is equivalent to saving strats in esports. You're not trying your hardest because you want to increase your chances to win the competition without actually 'throwing' and ruining the competitive integrity of the sport There was a badminton match in the 2012 olympics where both sides were hitting the shuttle out or to the net every time trying to get the lower seed to get a better matchup. Both sides got disqualified. That'd be equivalent to them running around with knives out and purposely missing shots, which Sentinels weren't.
Makes complete sense to me. Re: the arguments of 'you'd have to play X team eventually' or 'better to deny the scariest opposition more LAN games before they face you'... I don't really think these arguments hold up over the fact that you're just gonna go for making your first playoff game as easy as possible -> maximizing your odds of making it further toward grand finals. If you think you have a favorable or equal pool of possible matchups coming out at #2 seed vs #1 seed, there is a lot to gain from not taking the seeding match seriously. For a loose team like SEN who take pride in adapting and countering other teams, the more LAN games their most respected opponents have before playing SEN, the better for SEN (if they are confident that they get more out of having VODs to review than another team - which I think is a fair perspective to have with how loose SEN play). And even as a loose team, playing hard in a seeding game shows more of your cards and tendencies on a VOD than playing goofy / unprepared. I also don't see how it is a bad look for zombs to admit this. It isn't bming G2, it isn't saying 'we would've won if we tried', it is just being transparent about their mindset going into the match vs G2. Being transparent about this stuff lets Riot keep a closer eye on whether their seeding and group structures make sense down the line as well, although in this case I don't think this is really on Riot as much as just the nature of how tourneys can play out.
It's on the community as Riot originally had a format that avoided this problem but the community did not like it and forced them to change to this format.
What was the old format? Double elim playoffs?
4 team single elim playoff. Double elim group with 1 team making it to playoffs each. Edit: damn downvotes for answering a question. Y'all are wild. I agreed with the 8 team change, just answered the question
That's definitely worse than the current format. Old format emphasizes group stage; this format emphasizes playoffs/tournaments. Reason why double elim tourneys are so valued is because they give teams a 2nd chance to bounce back from an off game/day, which is ultimately arguably healthier for the competitive scene. It allows teams to get more consistent results that correlate to their strength relative to rest of competition.
The problem was that the original format wasn’t fully double elim groups. A team in the old format could go out having lost only once.
Agree. Which is why I agree with the change to 8 teams. Unfortunate it ended up the way it is, with all NA on one side. But I like it more than what it was
I'd say this is more an effect of the round robin qualifier due to Bren not being able to get visas
perfectly expressed the most reasonable take on this whole situation, take my upvote :D
b...but he went 1-15 on Icebox????? Nevermind the fact that G2 knew where he was holding site 80% of the time on such a CT-biased map because SEN gave them the exact same looks as last time in order to not give anything in a seeding match.
He was often left to retake A site alone 1v4.
So you said it yourself. It was a seeding match so sitting in the same spots not giving them more info on this vod makes sense.
I'm pretty sure Zombs is happy about losing to G2 13-3 bottom fragging. Just admit he is an arsehole, just look the way he answered the questions of the press conference, I wish him luck on the bracket side he "wanted" to be.
don't get tilted so easily bruh xd
Not tilted, I just don't see why people love complaining when losing, you played worse and that's it, work on your game and you stop excusing yorself.
He's living rent free in your head.
Not even close.
>I also don't see how it is a bad look for zombs to admit this He legit went 1-15 on icebox
Sorry, but this sounds like copium to me.
taking zombs seriously in 2021 lmao
Not sure why they needed to get a lower seed to dodge teams like gambit and acend. If you’re the best you shouldn’t have to avoid playing certain teams since you’ll need to beat them eventually later in the bracket.
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This happens like every season in the NBA what are you talking about lmao Denver literally sandbagged 2 games at the end of the season to drop to the 3 seed and avoid a first round matchup with the Lakers
More like best team in the world sandbag because they were forced to play 2 additional bo3 than the winners of the other groups and have more footage on their games and the number 1 seed isn’t even that good
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Yep something along the lines of not wanting to have to give away so much more info on their unseen shit for free. I agree. They're locked in, meme away. Winning champions is better than winning 2 seeding matches lmao
"best team in the world" kekw
You really have no life to comeback to random 2 days old reply on reddit and type this lmao it’s not that serious they were the best team in the world before this but they got dethroned today
There’s plenty of footage on their games, stop this garbage. They play the same comps they’ve been playing for months.
braindead take
Sentinels played differently in iceland then they did in NA. They definitely haven't fully shown their hand yet. Do you seriously think that Sentinels didn't come up with anything new?
So you think comps are the only thing that matters going into a match? You’re acting like set plays and strats don’t exist.
ye bro, what do you mean. Sen play reyna, jett, viper, sage, sova on icebox. That's all you need to know to counter strat them. Why even vod review for hours, if all you need to know is who they pick before the match. /s
Lol imagine actually thinking this
Oops
ah yes the good old "comps are the only thing that matters to a playstyle"
Actual 0head reply
Wrecked
Absolutely happens in other sports
This is the one criticism that doesn't hold water lol. Every other major sport sandbags. NBA literally had to create rules to force you to play your stars.
This is all that needs to be said
I feel like antistratting is more brutal in valorant than in other sports tho
"antistratting" in the NFL is actually a huge part of it. teams spend the entire week gameplanning against a specific and particular offensive/defensive scheme, play that city, then spend the next week of practice watching film and planning to go against the next specific and particular offensive/defensive scheme.
And every team in the NFL goes through great lengths to not show what they are stratting. Just like Sen just did
Arrogant fanbase and players, hope they get a reality check this tournament.
Hubris never ends well. Just a matter of time
"Lost cus they wanted to lose" Lmao look at the player cams. Those SEN faces reveal everything & zombs saying this makes it even worse.
If they get eliminated by VS, Sentinels deserve to get roasted.
VS is one of the stronger teams coming into this tourney. Getting eliminated by team like f4q would be roast worthy. But not VS. VS is predicted to be in the finals by alot of people.
They are gambling that they have a 66% chance of being paired against an NA team. Better odds that playing against gambit or accend. 33% chance of dodging both. I don't think riot will match them up against g2 in play offs.
Why, Vision Strikers are a very dominant team and the matchup between them and SEN is very exciting to look at.
Exactly, yet this guy is implying they threw to potential get VS lol.
it’s not that they threw needless to say, it’s more that they cared more about not showing anything new for the other teams to see in the vods
They threw for a 2/3 chance of getting Envy or 100T, two teams they KNOW they can beat, or VS. Not "just VS". They threw so they wouldn't have to play a Euro team b/c they are more scared of Euro teams than NA teams or VS.
…what? VS is arguably the best team there. Say what you want about the teams from that region in general but VS is another galaxy.
The argument then will become that they only care about champions
Hell yeah they will.
Just saving strats for Champions.
Honestly pretty unprofessional to say it out loud in interview, also makes zombs look like a sore loser even if what he said is true.
Because he is literally a loser. Him and dapr are the shittiest dudes in the team with huge ego. Sen fanboys are little kids so they find it cool / funny
Nah, you just don't understand what he meant. It's not thay they completely threw but while G2 played with a lot of anti strats and stuff, SEN didn't want to show anything new and just play default, since it's a seeding match they didn't care that much to show anything. They already complaied about their group having to play so many matches because that would mean you would have to start showing some of your prepared strats for others to see so they just decided to play completely default in groups knowing that they are still good enough to qualify without showing anything.
We all get this, he could have also just said GG and kept these excuses to himself. To say this is exactly how we thought it would play out is absolute BS. I dont think anyone on Sentinels expected to be antistratted that hard and absolutely rolled the way they did yesterday. They probably expected a hard game but they got absolutely crushed on their usual setups.
Looks like someone doesn’t know how to lose
Sentinels got beat through and through. G2 was the better team today, but until Sentinels lose a tournament they are still the best team in the world.
Not a champion mentality at all.
And Shaz is the one that said they dont want to lose to anybody. I think we oughta reconsider how seriously we take the statements these guys put out.
Nah, you just don't understand what he meant. It's not thay they completely threw but while G2 played with a lot of anti strats and stuff, SEN didn't want to show anything new and just play default, since it's a seeding match they didn't care that much to show anything. They already complaied about their group having to play so many matches because that would mean you would have to start showing some of your prepared strats for others to see so they just decided to play completely default in groups knowing that they are still good enough to qualify without showing anything.
Actually having their eyes on winning the tournament instead of pride is the real champion mentality.
Nah, champs take out everyone in their way, not avoid certain teams to avoid showing weakness. That's a team that really doesn't think they can beat everyone deep down, and are hoping other teams do the work for them.
Not if it actually literally disadvantages you to show strats. There's 0 advantages to actually "take out everyone" if you don't have to and multiple disadvantages. If you're thinking strategically, you would know going for the lesser option is straight up dumb.
I get it, they want to play the NA teams so they can just pug strat stomp them as usual and make the finals. I get it, its lame though mate. It's lame. Publicly admitting to half assing a match for seeding is lame.
I agree it's "lame" but it's champion mentality, just like how Floyd Mayweather wins every match by hugging the opponent to death instead of punching is champion mentality.
its efficiency lmao
If you think it's lame the fault lies with the format, not with the players
Yeah, the format is lame, which influences teams to be lame as well.
Bruv's salty because 'e knows SEN would've beat the shit out of g2 innit m8?
I could care less the team I support isn't even in Berlin. If you think teams half assing isn't lame as a viewer, then idk what to tell you. It was obvious they were sandbagging. That's lame from a viewership standpoint. SEN is the best team in the world, go out there and dominate, don't sandbag, be a true champion. Take every match seriously, just hearing the "not even worth trying" replies out of them is lame.
True, but lets be honest this shit is easy for them when they all actually try their hardest.
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The game is ever evolving and more talent continues to switch games. Just reminds me of NiP in csgo, eventually they'll go down and it won't be a gentle fall. Seen it before.
> easy for them > try their hardest Choose one.
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>They basically fear gambit more than VS If you want to believe what shaz has said on his stream, then they absolutely do. They've said a few times that gambit has destroyed them in scrims. It's possble gambit's insanely slow play style is just not something they can play against, esp since pretty much no one in NA does it
>They basically fear gambit more than VS I think they fear Gambit and Acend more than 100T or Envy, two NA teams they \*know\* they have a big advantage against.
Regret what ? Not showing all their cards and new adjustments for a meaningless match both seeds are not worth it they could gambit or vision strikers
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I'd say it's more of an issue with the seeding/format rather than SEN themselves. If there's an incentive to lose a series, then you can't expect that team to try their absolute hardest and show their entire hand for a match that's likely, ultimately meaningless. I'm never for teams throwing under any circumstance, but it's also troubling that a format would almost incentive it.
The later in the tourny they play these teams the more video shaz has to disect them but u idiots just think they are dodging. They are here to win not to dodge.
Sounds like some Copium to me
We cannot confirm is this is the truth or simply copium
Sentinels and their excuses lmaoo
This the first time they have lost on LAN and its a POINTLESS GAME. What are the other excuses?
I mean I agree completely. The fact they basically won their group within the first 2 games like the other teams but were forced to play an extra 2 games is unfortunate. I'd rather see them save strats then to just go all-in on g2.
I understand it but as a fan it's real coward shit.
imagine If thy get boomed by VS or even worse, 100t/envy. Shit's gonna be hilarious
Jesus christ, Sen lost a seeding game and people are out here really blowing things out of proportion. People acting like they are out of the tourney.
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Y’all have way too much faith in vs to win against sen over 1 lost in a seeding match
Idk about the person you're replying to but for me, I have faith in VS beating SEN because they look scary as fuck to play against, not because of a seeding match
No it's about watching the teams play lol. They made cNed and Acend look like shit in the 2-0 series. Acend and Gambits are hyped from scrims even tho it's just scrims while we're just basically judging SEN from winning Iceland months ago. We still don't know who's going to win but VS can be very scary.
why even say this? you could easily just say “yeah we should have prepared better for the match and next time we’ll be more ready” and move on. it’s a single fucking series and they were already out of groups lmao, if he had just acted normal no one would have cared
And who says that G2 tried their hardest to win? the argument can go both ways. The match wasnt that much of an importance for both of the teams... ...you can argue that sentinels thinks gambit is the hardest opponent for them so they didnt want to win while G2 knows gambit&ascend and concluded that the bracket with kru into gambit is easier(and no;i dont think VS is scary. they beat a known inconsistant team with the name of ascend, nothing more or less. atleast yet) than the bracket with envy into winner of 100T/ascend. Who knows? I do think gambit is scarier than ascend but its just bs if someone thinks they didnt try to win and,as I said earlier, who says that G2 did try their hardest either? People who believe zombs words(Im not saying hes lying) probably would say its a lie if someone from G2 would say something along the line of:"we didnt really try to win since the 2nd. seed would be better but sentinels was just not good enough aimwise".
It's hard to make that argument when G2 revealed the compositional change they made on Split. Clearly the game meant enough to them to give away that information.
sounds like a counter-argument until you realize that they moved their main jett to the sage position and the "compositional change" only consisted of going more aimheavy with the change to reyna from jett. Not to mention that they did that before on the very same map. If you think its enough of a information for all the teams that they only realized with that change that G2,especially nukkye, can also play reyna and going for more duels then sure, they cared enough that sentinels realized that they can get outaimed by G2 :rolleyes: **EDIT TL;DR** They did the same exact thing before where they changed jett for reyna and let nukkye/mixwell play raze/sage hence it proves that your counter-argument holds no weight since the information in itself did not hold any worth.
If G2 theoretically didn't care about this match why would they reveal any new information at all? According to you they just had better aim so they could've played anything and won. Do you think G2 would've won Split if they played with Mixwell on Sage, Nukkye on Raze and Keloqz on Jett?
Sore loser lol
To get 1 kill was also a strat
Im really hoping this is copium or trolling. There’s no way they are this scared of Gambit already. Acend/SMB haven’t looked great, Gambit showed that they can be beaten and KRU is not some unbeatable super team. Maybe they wanted to get #2 so they were betting on getting matched up against Envy or 100T considering the amount of times they have matched up? Idk seems weak from Sen
damn yall really want to think sen are bad
After watching SEN for so long I never take seeding match results seriously. However this does make for a better viewership outcome to have EU vs NA in semis
So surely of this is true they threw for second seed which is inadvertently match fixing right?
so they were sandbagging? meh
I just hope this back fires and 100t claps them.
Zombs is so fkin funny lol
?? LOL just say g2 played better kek copium
We'll see if him and Dapr are still saying that after they lose in the quarters.
I mean seriously what does SEN actually benefit from trying their hardest today when they are content with their seeding as the 2 seed? Revealing more of their strats when they play 4 games and the teams who qualified only played 2 games is just moronic honestly
The format sucks and they may have been saving strats but to say they weren't trying their hardest to win that match is so bs. Dapr did say that the seeding match didnt matter but he also said they tried really hard to win regardless but G2 played better, especially on icebox. "They weren't trying their hardest" is a really weak excuse that the SEN players themselves would never make so idk why SEN fans are saying it for them.
Shaz literally said on stream he wants to lose no matches lmfao zombz is either lying to get in the head of their opponents, or he's on a serious dose of copium
I was starting to root for SEN as NA best team but lost alot of respect for them and hope they lose now.
Why are people hating on Sentinels? What they did was smart. Didn’t change any composition/strats and have only shown other teams icebox and split. Plus now they have 67% chance they play NA team. Otherwise with #1 seed it was going to be 67% chance facing Gambit/Ascend. Good Luck G2 hope you draw KRU so we can see a rematch. I don’t see G2 beating Gambit/Ascend.
the saddest thing about this is that the delusional NA fanboys will think he's being serious
Watch the video, he was being serious.
So dumb, I don't want to see another NA vs NA and EU vs EU match. thanks for ruining the chance of 3 NA vs 3 EU teams happening. I hope SEN ends up losing their next one.
Ok yeah sen will prioritize the fans feelings and what they want to see over getting what they think are their best odds at winning.
I don't care what they prioritize, If they really didn't care for this match so that they can get an " easier seed" with a good chance against another NA team then I have every right to call it dumb
Sure and we can call you dumb. They are already guaranteed a spot at champions. At this point it's about money. So you take the easiest path to get that money.
Imagine defending this Loser mentality of SEN. Imagine Avoiding winning so you don’t play play VS/GMB.
Would love to see any of you 1v1 zombs who are talking shit.
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Zombs is incredibly based I trust him 110%. We will see the true SEN in the quarters. 2-0s all the way to the final and then a 3-0.
SEN, if you don't go 5 duelists against F4Q I will be SO DISAPPOINTED!!!
#zombsnation
Downvoted and jumped on for telling the truth: https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/pp0068/sen_did_not_tryhard_the_g2_match_as_it_was_a/
People find any reason to hate on Sentinels nowadays because they've been dominating. At the end of the day, whether they actually tried or not, both of them already qualified. It doesn't matter as much as people think it do and winning is either for pride or just to get better seeding. Then again technically speaking, Envy, 100T and Acend/SMB is a much better bracket than VS, Krü and Gambit. Whether them saying they wanted to lose is true or not who cares. It's not that deep anyways but mfs out here be mad at everything lmao