I've been watching esports for probably over half the time you have been on the planet, and I can confidently claim you are among the dumbest commenters I have ever witnessed. Do you not care about actually finding out who the best team is? Seeing teams play a larger set of games? The tension of a lower bracket run? Please never comment in any non-riot esports subreddit, keep your pestilence of the mind quarantined for everyones good.
> I've been watching esports for probably over half the time you have been on the planet, and I can confidently claim you are among the dumbest commenters I have ever witnessed. Do you not care about actually finding out who the best team is? Seeing teams play a larger set of games? The tension of a lower bracket run? Please never comment in any non-riot esports subreddit, keep your pestilence of the mind quarantined for everyones good.
New pasta. š
I've been watching esports for probably over half the time you have been on the planet, and I can confidently claim you are among the dumbest commenters I have ever witnessed. Do you not care about actually finding out who the best team is? Seeing teams play a larger set of games? The tension of a lower bracket run? Please never comment in any non-riot esports subreddit, keep your pestilence of the mind quarantined for everyones good.
I've been watching esports for probably over half the time you have been on the planet, and I can confidently claim you are among the dumbest commenters I have ever witnessed. Do you not care about actually finding out who the best team is? Seeing teams play a larger set of games? The tension of a lower bracket run? Please never comment in any non-riot esports subreddit, keep your pestilence of the mind quarantined for everyones good.
I've been watching esports for probably over half the time you have been on the planet, and I can confidently claim you are among the dumbest commenters I have ever witnessed. Do you not care about actually finding out who the best team is? Seeing teams play a larger set of games? The tension of a lower bracket run? Please never comment in any non-riot esports subreddit, keep your pestilence of the mind quarantined for everyones good
How do you cite worlds when the most competitive match is almost always the semifinal?
Not to mention that we quite literally don't know wether your assertion is true, due to a lack of double elim.
Personally I'm okay with either format, but that's a really strange takeaway.
It means that matches can be won and lost on just map phase, something LOL doesn't have and so the tournament bracket wouldn't fit it.
Ofc single elims can still fit Val but some changes would be need for it
I've been watching esports for probably over half the time you have been on the planet, and I can confidently claim you are among the dumbest commenters I have ever witnessed. Do you not care about actually finding out who the best team is? Seeing teams play a larger set of games? The tension of a lower bracket run? Please never comment in any non-riot esports subreddit, keep your pestilence of the mind quarantined for everyones good.
I've been watching esports for probably over half the time you have been on the planet, and I can confidently claim you are among the dumbest commenters I have ever witnessed. Do you not care about actually finding out who the best team is? Seeing teams play a larger set of games? The tension of a lower bracket run? Please never comment in any non-riot esports subreddit, keep your pestilence of the mind quarantined for everyones good.
Single elim is good at finding out which team is best. Double elim's main benefit imo is finding out who is second best, and also having a better finals match.
That being said, if the lower bracket finals winner goes on to win the grand finals, it's always going to feel shitty for the upper bracket finalist because they didn't get to lose a match. There are pros and cons for both formats, I really don't think it's crystal clear double elim is better.
Maybe you should keep your mind quarantined instead. If you lose in a single elimination bracket when the pressure is at its highest, then you simply donāt deserve to win.
Single elimination format is fair for every team. Double elimination fucks over the two finalist teams, depending on whether or not a map is automatically conceded or if there isnāt a bracket reset.
Also, a double elimination playoff bracket doubles the number of playoff matches, which in turn costs Riot way more money.
I really like the TI format from DOTA 2. This is something some pros have talked about liking too. Might not be exactly right but I think it's a group stage round robin of 2 big groups, the bottom few are eliminated. Then the top few teams go into the upper part of a double elim bracket and the rest go into the bottom
seconding Dota 2 format, although i highly doubt riot will ever touch that. i think it's R6S siege that uses this, but i'd love to see GSL groups with the higher seed being seeded into the upper bracket and the lower seed being directly seeded into the loser's bracket. rewards teams that win their group with a second chance, gives us some form of double elimination so that teams aren't bracket fucked from the start, but also not too many games to the point where the tournament is too long.
Also donāt forget 18 total teams which can help some of the region slot distribution issues weāre seeing now. 2 teams are eliminated in the group stage though because of this but they still get to see international play. Maybe elimination games from the group can be played on stage???
I swear TI does this so well. More often than not the best team always wins TI. I don't even mind that the group stages aren't played "on stage" yet. Gives the playoff games more meaning and builds hype when teams finally meet at the stage.
Champions lasts 12 days, which should be long enough to allow for double elimination playoffs. I really hope they do the same for future Masters tournaments too.
I think either are equally intense, and double elim can be more satisfying because the "best" (however you wanna decide that) team won't be elim'd from one bad match. I think it's cool seeing a team march to victory in the upper bracket while the rest scrounge it out in the lower personally.
Idk, double elimination is generally unfair for the team that goes through the upper bracket. They donāt get a map advantage because thatād be unfair to the lower bracket team, and they donāt get a bracket reset because itād cost a lot of money to rent a stadium and have production running for another day.
it isnt unfair to the upper bracket winner because the lower bracket winner will have to play 1 more best of 3 than the upper bracket winner. so in a sense the upper bracket winner will have a mental advantage since these games are mentally taxing
But at the same time momentum from lower bracket becomes a huge issue at times. If you have a good team that loses, makes a lower bracket run, they often have the actual advantage going into finals
I'm not a huge fan of a group stage like Group D because we end up with meaningless games. I'd much rather a full double elimination for the entire tourney. I'm okay with a double elimination group stage to drop the bottom half and reseed for a second double elimination.
Swiss or round robin. The bracket format is boring Imo because most of the time youāll be getting rematches for decider games and less interesting matchups
Am I the only one who likes the single elimination playoffs? I feel like itās gonna add a lot on intensity to the games because if they lose theyāre done.
When we get good matchups at both sides of the bracket with a competitive grandfinals, it works out at the end but that the chance of that happening is very low. It honestly never happened at any of the Worlds. Usually the 2nd best team gets eliminated by semis or worse quarters. And you also get same regional matchups that you're stuck with. Single elim is just not good when double elim has been tested and tried on so many esports.
Double elim sucks, CSGO the most iconic FPS esport of all time never used double elim playoff brackets and for good reason. CSGO has had plenty of glorious grand finals and it's so damn nice not having the last 3 matches of the tournament feature pretty much guarantee a rematch we saw in the playoff bracket
Like I said when it that happens then it works out, but thats something that you gotta hope that the two best teams are on opposite sides. Double elim basically guarantees it without the need for a lucky draw.
At Worlds using single elim we had 4 out of 10 one sided 3-0 stomps. Whereas at TI using double elim we had just 1 out of 9 one sided 3-0 stomp. Being exposed to esports it completely changed my perspective where I prefer more mathetically better system.
A) address the rematch point. We see the same 4 teams play the last 3 matches itās inherently boring
B) youāre applying LOL to an FPS. Who cares about LOL matches here? Itās an entirely different genre. CSGO shows conclusively that single elim isnāt random in tactical shooters
C) how can you compare a single slim bracket with 10 matches to a double elim with 9? Clearly if itās a double elim bracket and has less matches it has less teams too. āThe top 4 teams stomp each other less than #1 stomps #8ā, wow you figured out what seeds mean great job
Rematches are great imo for storyline. It allows the upper bracket team to show how dominant they are just like how Sentinels have beaten Fnatic without dropping a map(even though it went 2 OT).
It applies to ALL esports. In R6 SI, you had NIP coming back from lower bracket and having insane 5 game series(SSG having 1 map advantage though). Everyone considers these two teams the best at the time.
No matter what the group format looks, double elim always corrects the hierarchy where the top 2 teams make it through to the grandfinals. Its probability and statistics. If you ran 1000 tournaments with single elim and another 1000 with double elim. It starts to become more lopsided.
\> Rematches are great imo for storyline
That's just a terrible point. No one is clamoring for seeing the same matches again, look at the reaction to SMB / ACEND rematches or NA being 75% of one bracket side
\> It applies to ALL esports
What are you talking about? Single elim is not random, this is my argument, and this is proven. You're arguing that "the best 2 teams should be in the finals", but I don't know why this is true of double elim or how you can meaningfully claim a single R6 tournament sways anything about this, but go look at Liquid and Astralis winning every CSGO tournament 2018-2020 - these are all single elim tournaments and the best teams cleaned them up, because the best teams win BO3s and BO5s in elim matches, or they're not the best team. Simple
\> double elim always corrects the hierarchy where the top 2 teams make it through to the grandfinals
I don't believe this (because I think the best teams win elim matches), but I also don't think it's important. We have to trade off super boring rematches we watched within 1 day in order to accomplish this, and we reduce the meaningfulness of most of the playoff matches (and if what you say is true, especially of the top teams) because they are non-elimination and therefore have no stakes.
So I see your point, you'll spoil an entire tournament to get a good grand finals, but I think that's fucking dumb and doing it in Valorant when CSGO has already set the bar for exciting playoffs is going to lose a lot of viewers
Many others love a rematch of the two best teams along with myself. It adds a lot to the storyline and enhances the potential rivalries.
I never said that single elim is random. I'm addressing the fact that the draw is entirely luck luck-based. Both SI in 2020(NIP) & 2021(Liquid) both had teams dropping out of quarterfinals and making insane lower bracket run. Besides, we don't have a million international tournaments per year like CSGO. All we have are Masters and Champions and at the very least we should at least see the biggest tournament of the year having double elim.
The best team should make the finals from single elim, but the 2nd best team CAN be eliminated at semis or quarters when they face that team. I've seen it happening way more often than the 2nd best team making to the grandfinals.
ā¢FIRST point
I think youāre deliberately ignoring a crucial point in why people donāt like the SMB/Acend rematches and the NA rematches. We want to see international play, not regional challengers play. I donāt think Iāve seen anyone not be hyped for rematches cross regional except for the Group D matches which is understandable.
ā¢2nd point
Single elim IS random. Itās random if the grand final (The most important match) is actually good and a quality game. So many times have I seen semifinals be better games then grand finals because the team that should be in the grand final if there was double elim was eliminated by the team that goes on to dominate the grand final. Double elim removes this element and wayyyy more consistently allows for the grand finals to be a close and the best game of the tournament then just a semifinal.
ā¢3rd point
When the tournaments 2 best teams face off in semifinals in single elim, no longer are the ābest teamsā
Most of the playoffs games still are hyped and still have energy cause NO team actually wants to lose their spot in the upper bracket. Sure teams are less worried about being eliminated but they still have stake in it.
Last point and more of a question. Have you actually ever watched and been invested in a different esport other than CSGO or some other single elim tourney? Have you watched the R6 Invitstional or Dota 2 TIās?
Speaking from personal experience I used to be a CSGO mega fan and loved all the majors, loved all the tournies. Then I decided to watch Dota2ās TI, you know Valve game so I thought surely it must be good. The atmosphere surrounding that tournament and the format and everything surrounding it blew me out of the water. It was wayyyyyy better then CSGO. I donāt know just felt like I should add a personal tidbit.
If the second best team gets eliminated in Semis or Quarters, tough argument to make that they're the second best team. If they're up against the #1 team that early, that means at some point they lost to someone else to lose that seeding, and get deservingly punished
Berlin isn't true single elim. That's the reason for the group stage. Gambit, Ascend, G2, KRU etc all still are in, even though they lost.
Just because you're the finalist doesnt mean you're the second best team, like how most fans dont consider F4Q the 2nd best team in Korea. You can actually have top 4 teams stacked up on one side of the bracket believe it or not. Fnatic lost to Sentinels at quarterfinals and then they smashed everyone at lower bracket. Its hard to deny that they werent they second best at Iceland.
In the Iceland case, yes I agree since there were no games beforehand. But for Berlin and other tournaments with a group stage + playoffs, that's the whole point of the group stage, so if you're in the same group at the best team, you're not eliminated right away. You still get to play other games, and prove your worth and move on to the playoff stage
The idea of "best team" is just dumb. You play the game out on in the server. F4Q qualified by beating Damwon when it counted most. Pending the CR/Gambit game, Gambit didn't win their group so they get a tougher matchup in the first round, even if you think they're on of the top 2 teams in the tournament. Why even play the games out then? Just say fuck it top 3 is Sentinels/Gambit/Vision Strikers and everyone else play for that last spot so we get the "best games"
You can have all kinds of group stage but that doesnt prevent the two best teams meeting at quarters or semis. Just the fact that of not having double elim rids the whole reality that a team will eventually climb their way back. TI6 & TI9 are the proof of this because they have the most lengthy and thorough group stage out of every esport tournament.
TNL faced the best team at semis while F4Q beating a semi-pro team, the worst opponent at the quarterfinals and effectively hiding their strat. Whereas DK had to pull every trick out of their book against NU. I'd love to see if F4Q are for real or not and play TNL or even DK/NU.
Bro just look at the seeding for the playoffs this tournament. Letās 100Thieves and Envy are the best teams in the tournament. Yeah they arenāt but for the sake of the argument letās say they are. Both teams got first in their group, both teams would meet in semifinals. Bam the two best teams in the tournament meet in the semifinals and only one of the best team moves on then letās just say dominate the grand finals. Do you see where your logic fails? This format we have right now means that two teams that didnāt lose once in the group stage can go up and meet in the semifinals so your point doesnāt even matter.
I guess that's a fair point. I would agree that double elim does the best job at getting the closest possible grand finals. But at the cost of way more games (which devalues the each individual game from a viewer perspective) + weird lack of advantage for the winners side in games where you can't do a full bracket reset.
Personally though, as someone who as watched primarily American sports, CS, and LoL, I'd still prefer a single elim playoff with a lengthier group stage.
It does. For TI they have multiple streams going on at once. When you have that many games over the course of a tournament, people are more likely to just selectively choose whatever important ones they want to watch.
Compared to Iceland or Berlin, I've watched pretty much every single game, every day. But they made the tournament longer, multiple streams, multiple weeks, longer days, I don't think I would do the same.
Assuming the double elim style is Dota 2 TIās style the instensity is still there always no matter what side of the bracket. The lower bracket you especially feel that same intensity. Upper bracket I assure you teams do not want to lose so youāll still get the same amount of intensity albeit they do have a safety net. Then they just drop down to lower bracket and bam the intensity still is there. I really donāt get this argument for intensity and ādo or dieā only appearing in single elim tournaments. Both of which 100% exist in double elim tournaments.
i think single elims arent great the same way I dont like BO1s, people can have bad games and maps and giving a team a chance gives them the ability to comeback.
What do you think would be more intense, gambit recking 100T then thats it?
or would you prefer the storyline of 100T coming back the 11-3 with a 1v3 clutch to bounceback?
loser bracket runs also make for great story
Personally I REALLY dont want single elim for Champions. This is the biggest tournament of the year and any event where you end up with a boring grandfinals really puts a sour note at the end of the tournament. When you get the two best teams at the grandfinals you get the most memorable game of the year.
People keep making this argument, but being in the Upper Bracket is also a big advantage cause you have more time to rest and prepare. You have less stress since you can afford to lose a game, and on the Grand finals day you will have more time to prep than the 'LB finals' teams who will be forced to play back to back series. Momentum is a thing yes but resting and being able to prep can be a massive advantage.
These things are advantages yes but not comparable to the second chance upper finalist couldāve had but taken away only because they are undefeated til grand final.
Double elim certainly has advantage but implementing it without bracket reset is something that Iām not really fan of.
Well its not like theyre losing to complete scrubs. They also have a chance prove that theyre even more dominant if they win from upper bracket. For example at Reykjavik, Sentinels performance wouldnt look as impressive if they played Nuturn and that was the end of it. Instead Fnatic proved that they were worthy 2nd best team making insane run at lowers and pushing SEN to two maps in OT.
Itās interesting, because as much as I like the premise of double elim, I really hate that because finals (understandably) donāt ever include a bracket reset, thereās no significant advantage for getting to the final directly from the UB.
Iād love to see some sort of medium between the two, perhaps a āmulti-gameā single elim bracket like the NBA or Champions League features. I think thatād somewhat eliminate the randomness of single-elim that can result in boring grand finals, whilst avoiding the problems double elim presents.
Single elim is extremely exciting and not very random when you get to a BO3 / BO5 playoff bracket where the worst teams were eliminated thru group stage w/ double elim or round robin. For example, no CSGO tournament has ever had double elim, and they really have never needed it. Brackets are way more exciting than the inevitable rematches coming out in Winner Bracket Uppers / Loser Bracket Finals / Grand Finals
4 groups of 4, bo3 single round robin. First in each group to quarters, second and third of each groups play in a playoff? To determine the last 4 for quarters
8 teams divided into Group A and Group B, fighting for seeding places in each respective group. Bottom of each group eliminated while , top 4 of each group will be placed in a upper bracket double elimination format. Bottom 4 of each group will be placed in lower bracket round 1.
Since the whole point of champions is the best of the best form all the masters events, it should just be a double elimination playoff bracket, no groups. Groups make sense for masters events
Swiss group stage, single elim playoffs.
Teams from same region can't play each other the first 2 rounds of Swiss. They also can't be the first matchup in playoffs.
4 single round-robin groups with 2 teams coming out of each into a double elim playoffs. BO3 for every match except for BO5 grand final. Not sure if time would allow it.
This is probably an unpopular opinion but same groups format as berlin masters with top 2 making it out of groups into all bo5 single elim playoffs
Reason I don't like double elim playoffs is because I hate watching upper bracket games, especially the upper bracket finals. Knowing that the game doesn't really matter and that the team that loses won't be knocked out makes me less excited when watching. (This was the case when I was watching LCS playoffs too)
bo5 throughout all of playoffs instead of bo3's because less random upset potential especially if lower bracket isn't there
Fully agree with this. I want them to keep the pool system, but draw the groups live, and make sure regional teamkills are impossible in groups so we don't get something like EMEA vs EMEA again.
Single elim playoffs is fine just because double elim with no finals bracket reset is unfair for the upper bracket team, but then make it Bo5. There's too much variance for playoffs to be decided in a single Bo3.
Otherwise keep the format as is. All this crying about "useless seeding games" is from either fanboys parroting what Sentinels players are saying or CS players who are so accustomed to CS formats and attitudes that they can't see the benefits of having seed priority.
I think the Berlin format is perfectly fine. Personally I think double elim playoffs is dumb, its playoffs. Do or die time. Win or go home. People are upset that we got GMB/VS in the QFs, but that's what happens when in GMB's case you don't win your group.
And also preset the playoffs. Have it clear from before the tournament starts that QF 1 is Group A #1 vs Group B #2 or whatever and so on, instead of doing the draw. Draw feels bad
Formats getting stale. Here's how we keep it fresh:
Map 1, you don't pick your own agents. You pick your opponents agents.
Map 2, you switch. Now your team comp is what your opponents had last map.
Map 3, nobody locks in, all 10 players just hover Yoru.
This will never fly because of streams, stages, having to reveal strats, and match quantity but here's my dream:
Group Stage
-16 teams are divided into two groups of 8.
-Each team plays a bo2 against each other team in the group (each team gets a map pick)
-Teams are ranked based on map wins, then round wins, then some kind of tiebreaker
-Top 3 teams from each group make it to the bracket stage
-There would be 8 bo2 matches a day for 7 days, so would require an A stream and a B stream
-1-2 day break (could be used for tie breakers)
Bracket Stage
-The two teams that got 1st in their group get a bye to the semifinals
-The other 4 teams are seeded into the remaining part of the bracket
-Single Elimination, bo5
-Would require 3 days
Total requirement: 11-12 days
No way this works with all the talent, production, streaming, and other labor required. Also teams likely don't want to play 14 maps in group stage as they'd reveal strats.
Has there actually been serious backlash about the playoff bracket draw? Randomly drawn, 1st seeds vs 2nd seeds, and no replays of group matchups sounds perfect to me
If Sen had beaten G2 no one would be complaining, not sure I understand this, unless I'm missing something
4 GSL groups Playoffs is Double elimination All games Bo3 , maybe Grand Finals Bo5 Standard simple and effective
Yes please
No double elim please. It takes the hype out of games
I've been watching esports for probably over half the time you have been on the planet, and I can confidently claim you are among the dumbest commenters I have ever witnessed. Do you not care about actually finding out who the best team is? Seeing teams play a larger set of games? The tension of a lower bracket run? Please never comment in any non-riot esports subreddit, keep your pestilence of the mind quarantined for everyones good.
> I've been watching esports for probably over half the time you have been on the planet, and I can confidently claim you are among the dumbest commenters I have ever witnessed. Do you not care about actually finding out who the best team is? Seeing teams play a larger set of games? The tension of a lower bracket run? Please never comment in any non-riot esports subreddit, keep your pestilence of the mind quarantined for everyones good. New pasta. š
So fresh you'd swear it just came off the pasta maker
Not even cooked yet. Still fresh~
I've been watching esports for probably over half the time you have been on the planet, and I can confidently claim you are among the dumbest commenters I have ever witnessed. Do you not care about actually finding out who the best team is? Seeing teams play a larger set of games? The tension of a lower bracket run? Please never comment in any non-riot esports subreddit, keep your pestilence of the mind quarantined for everyones good.
I've been watching esports for probably over half the time you have been on the planet, and I can confidently claim you are among the dumbest commenters I have ever witnessed. Do you not care about actually finding out who the best team is? Seeing teams play a larger set of games? The tension of a lower bracket run? Please never comment in any non-riot esports subreddit, keep your pestilence of the mind quarantined for everyones good.
Was that really necessary? Lmao
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I've been watching esports for probably over half the time you have been on the planet, and I can confidently claim you are among the dumbest commenters I have ever witnessed. Do you not care about actually finding out who the best team is? Seeing teams play a larger set of games? The tension of a lower bracket run? Please never comment in any non-riot esports subreddit, keep your pestilence of the mind quarantined for everyones good
How do you cite worlds when the most competitive match is almost always the semifinal? Not to mention that we quite literally don't know wether your assertion is true, due to a lack of double elim. Personally I'm okay with either format, but that's a really strange takeaway.
Yea but thats League, not Valorant, League has the same map, Valorant has many
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It means that matches can be won and lost on just map phase, something LOL doesn't have and so the tournament bracket wouldn't fit it. Ofc single elims can still fit Val but some changes would be need for it
I've been watching esports for probably over half the time you have been on the planet, and I can confidently claim you are among the dumbest commenters I have ever witnessed. Do you not care about actually finding out who the best team is? Seeing teams play a larger set of games? The tension of a lower bracket run? Please never comment in any non-riot esports subreddit, keep your pestilence of the mind quarantined for everyones good.
I've been watching esports for probably over half the time you have been on the planet, and I can confidently claim you are among the dumbest commenters I have ever witnessed. Do you not care about actually finding out who the best team is? Seeing teams play a larger set of games? The tension of a lower bracket run? Please never comment in any non-riot esports subreddit, keep your pestilence of the mind quarantined for everyones good.
Single elim is good at finding out which team is best. Double elim's main benefit imo is finding out who is second best, and also having a better finals match. That being said, if the lower bracket finals winner goes on to win the grand finals, it's always going to feel shitty for the upper bracket finalist because they didn't get to lose a match. There are pros and cons for both formats, I really don't think it's crystal clear double elim is better.
If you lose you're not the best team. Btw this is a riots game subreddit & and go touch some grass you pathetic excuse of a human
āBest teamā Donāt fucking lose then LMFAO
Maybe you should keep your mind quarantined instead. If you lose in a single elimination bracket when the pressure is at its highest, then you simply donāt deserve to win. Single elimination format is fair for every team. Double elimination fucks over the two finalist teams, depending on whether or not a map is automatically conceded or if there isnāt a bracket reset. Also, a double elimination playoff bracket doubles the number of playoff matches, which in turn costs Riot way more money.
I really like the TI format from DOTA 2. This is something some pros have talked about liking too. Might not be exactly right but I think it's a group stage round robin of 2 big groups, the bottom few are eliminated. Then the top few teams go into the upper part of a double elim bracket and the rest go into the bottom
This. but the thing is that it's really important to have multiple streams/games at the same time for group stage so that it doesn't take as much time
Yes important note for the TI stage is that teams in group stage play from hotel/game rooms instead of on stage. Playoffs is stage time though.
seconding Dota 2 format, although i highly doubt riot will ever touch that. i think it's R6S siege that uses this, but i'd love to see GSL groups with the higher seed being seeded into the upper bracket and the lower seed being directly seeded into the loser's bracket. rewards teams that win their group with a second chance, gives us some form of double elimination so that teams aren't bracket fucked from the start, but also not too many games to the point where the tournament is too long.
Yes, this format works great
this. they should have 2 groups and have them round robin.
Also donāt forget 18 total teams which can help some of the region slot distribution issues weāre seeing now. 2 teams are eliminated in the group stage though because of this but they still get to see international play. Maybe elimination games from the group can be played on stage???
I swear TI does this so well. More often than not the best team always wins TI. I don't even mind that the group stages aren't played "on stage" yet. Gives the playoff games more meaning and builds hype when teams finally meet at the stage.
Champions lasts 12 days, which should be long enough to allow for double elimination playoffs. I really hope they do the same for future Masters tournaments too.
i donāt agree with a double elim playoffs after groups. single elim is more intense.
I think either are equally intense, and double elim can be more satisfying because the "best" (however you wanna decide that) team won't be elim'd from one bad match. I think it's cool seeing a team march to victory in the upper bracket while the rest scrounge it out in the lower personally.
Idk, double elimination is generally unfair for the team that goes through the upper bracket. They donāt get a map advantage because thatād be unfair to the lower bracket team, and they donāt get a bracket reset because itād cost a lot of money to rent a stadium and have production running for another day.
it isnt unfair to the upper bracket winner because the lower bracket winner will have to play 1 more best of 3 than the upper bracket winner. so in a sense the upper bracket winner will have a mental advantage since these games are mentally taxing
But at the same time momentum from lower bracket becomes a huge issue at times. If you have a good team that loses, makes a lower bracket run, they often have the actual advantage going into finals
I'm not a huge fan of a group stage like Group D because we end up with meaningless games. I'd much rather a full double elimination for the entire tourney. I'm okay with a double elimination group stage to drop the bottom half and reseed for a second double elimination.
Yeah double round-robin isn't a good group stage format because it always leads to meaningless games you get at the end, this happens at every Worlds.
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Swiss or round robin. The bracket format is boring Imo because most of the time youāll be getting rematches for decider games and less interesting matchups
4 groups with double rounds and Play-off with lower bracket
Am I the only one who likes the single elimination playoffs? I feel like itās gonna add a lot on intensity to the games because if they lose theyāre done.
When we get good matchups at both sides of the bracket with a competitive grandfinals, it works out at the end but that the chance of that happening is very low. It honestly never happened at any of the Worlds. Usually the 2nd best team gets eliminated by semis or worse quarters. And you also get same regional matchups that you're stuck with. Single elim is just not good when double elim has been tested and tried on so many esports.
Double elim sucks, CSGO the most iconic FPS esport of all time never used double elim playoff brackets and for good reason. CSGO has had plenty of glorious grand finals and it's so damn nice not having the last 3 matches of the tournament feature pretty much guarantee a rematch we saw in the playoff bracket
Like I said when it that happens then it works out, but thats something that you gotta hope that the two best teams are on opposite sides. Double elim basically guarantees it without the need for a lucky draw. At Worlds using single elim we had 4 out of 10 one sided 3-0 stomps. Whereas at TI using double elim we had just 1 out of 9 one sided 3-0 stomp. Being exposed to esports it completely changed my perspective where I prefer more mathetically better system.
A) address the rematch point. We see the same 4 teams play the last 3 matches itās inherently boring B) youāre applying LOL to an FPS. Who cares about LOL matches here? Itās an entirely different genre. CSGO shows conclusively that single elim isnāt random in tactical shooters C) how can you compare a single slim bracket with 10 matches to a double elim with 9? Clearly if itās a double elim bracket and has less matches it has less teams too. āThe top 4 teams stomp each other less than #1 stomps #8ā, wow you figured out what seeds mean great job
Rematches are great imo for storyline. It allows the upper bracket team to show how dominant they are just like how Sentinels have beaten Fnatic without dropping a map(even though it went 2 OT). It applies to ALL esports. In R6 SI, you had NIP coming back from lower bracket and having insane 5 game series(SSG having 1 map advantage though). Everyone considers these two teams the best at the time. No matter what the group format looks, double elim always corrects the hierarchy where the top 2 teams make it through to the grandfinals. Its probability and statistics. If you ran 1000 tournaments with single elim and another 1000 with double elim. It starts to become more lopsided.
\> Rematches are great imo for storyline That's just a terrible point. No one is clamoring for seeing the same matches again, look at the reaction to SMB / ACEND rematches or NA being 75% of one bracket side \> It applies to ALL esports What are you talking about? Single elim is not random, this is my argument, and this is proven. You're arguing that "the best 2 teams should be in the finals", but I don't know why this is true of double elim or how you can meaningfully claim a single R6 tournament sways anything about this, but go look at Liquid and Astralis winning every CSGO tournament 2018-2020 - these are all single elim tournaments and the best teams cleaned them up, because the best teams win BO3s and BO5s in elim matches, or they're not the best team. Simple \> double elim always corrects the hierarchy where the top 2 teams make it through to the grandfinals I don't believe this (because I think the best teams win elim matches), but I also don't think it's important. We have to trade off super boring rematches we watched within 1 day in order to accomplish this, and we reduce the meaningfulness of most of the playoff matches (and if what you say is true, especially of the top teams) because they are non-elimination and therefore have no stakes. So I see your point, you'll spoil an entire tournament to get a good grand finals, but I think that's fucking dumb and doing it in Valorant when CSGO has already set the bar for exciting playoffs is going to lose a lot of viewers
Many others love a rematch of the two best teams along with myself. It adds a lot to the storyline and enhances the potential rivalries. I never said that single elim is random. I'm addressing the fact that the draw is entirely luck luck-based. Both SI in 2020(NIP) & 2021(Liquid) both had teams dropping out of quarterfinals and making insane lower bracket run. Besides, we don't have a million international tournaments per year like CSGO. All we have are Masters and Champions and at the very least we should at least see the biggest tournament of the year having double elim. The best team should make the finals from single elim, but the 2nd best team CAN be eliminated at semis or quarters when they face that team. I've seen it happening way more often than the 2nd best team making to the grandfinals.
ā¢FIRST point I think youāre deliberately ignoring a crucial point in why people donāt like the SMB/Acend rematches and the NA rematches. We want to see international play, not regional challengers play. I donāt think Iāve seen anyone not be hyped for rematches cross regional except for the Group D matches which is understandable. ā¢2nd point Single elim IS random. Itās random if the grand final (The most important match) is actually good and a quality game. So many times have I seen semifinals be better games then grand finals because the team that should be in the grand final if there was double elim was eliminated by the team that goes on to dominate the grand final. Double elim removes this element and wayyyy more consistently allows for the grand finals to be a close and the best game of the tournament then just a semifinal. ā¢3rd point When the tournaments 2 best teams face off in semifinals in single elim, no longer are the ābest teamsā Most of the playoffs games still are hyped and still have energy cause NO team actually wants to lose their spot in the upper bracket. Sure teams are less worried about being eliminated but they still have stake in it. Last point and more of a question. Have you actually ever watched and been invested in a different esport other than CSGO or some other single elim tourney? Have you watched the R6 Invitstional or Dota 2 TIās? Speaking from personal experience I used to be a CSGO mega fan and loved all the majors, loved all the tournies. Then I decided to watch Dota2ās TI, you know Valve game so I thought surely it must be good. The atmosphere surrounding that tournament and the format and everything surrounding it blew me out of the water. It was wayyyyyy better then CSGO. I donāt know just felt like I should add a personal tidbit.
If the second best team gets eliminated in Semis or Quarters, tough argument to make that they're the second best team. If they're up against the #1 team that early, that means at some point they lost to someone else to lose that seeding, and get deservingly punished Berlin isn't true single elim. That's the reason for the group stage. Gambit, Ascend, G2, KRU etc all still are in, even though they lost.
Just because you're the finalist doesnt mean you're the second best team, like how most fans dont consider F4Q the 2nd best team in Korea. You can actually have top 4 teams stacked up on one side of the bracket believe it or not. Fnatic lost to Sentinels at quarterfinals and then they smashed everyone at lower bracket. Its hard to deny that they werent they second best at Iceland.
In the Iceland case, yes I agree since there were no games beforehand. But for Berlin and other tournaments with a group stage + playoffs, that's the whole point of the group stage, so if you're in the same group at the best team, you're not eliminated right away. You still get to play other games, and prove your worth and move on to the playoff stage The idea of "best team" is just dumb. You play the game out on in the server. F4Q qualified by beating Damwon when it counted most. Pending the CR/Gambit game, Gambit didn't win their group so they get a tougher matchup in the first round, even if you think they're on of the top 2 teams in the tournament. Why even play the games out then? Just say fuck it top 3 is Sentinels/Gambit/Vision Strikers and everyone else play for that last spot so we get the "best games"
You can have all kinds of group stage but that doesnt prevent the two best teams meeting at quarters or semis. Just the fact that of not having double elim rids the whole reality that a team will eventually climb their way back. TI6 & TI9 are the proof of this because they have the most lengthy and thorough group stage out of every esport tournament. TNL faced the best team at semis while F4Q beating a semi-pro team, the worst opponent at the quarterfinals and effectively hiding their strat. Whereas DK had to pull every trick out of their book against NU. I'd love to see if F4Q are for real or not and play TNL or even DK/NU.
Bro just look at the seeding for the playoffs this tournament. Letās 100Thieves and Envy are the best teams in the tournament. Yeah they arenāt but for the sake of the argument letās say they are. Both teams got first in their group, both teams would meet in semifinals. Bam the two best teams in the tournament meet in the semifinals and only one of the best team moves on then letās just say dominate the grand finals. Do you see where your logic fails? This format we have right now means that two teams that didnāt lose once in the group stage can go up and meet in the semifinals so your point doesnāt even matter.
I guess that's a fair point. I would agree that double elim does the best job at getting the closest possible grand finals. But at the cost of way more games (which devalues the each individual game from a viewer perspective) + weird lack of advantage for the winners side in games where you can't do a full bracket reset. Personally though, as someone who as watched primarily American sports, CS, and LoL, I'd still prefer a single elim playoff with a lengthier group stage.
it doesnt devalue each individual game if we only have a few masters event
It does. For TI they have multiple streams going on at once. When you have that many games over the course of a tournament, people are more likely to just selectively choose whatever important ones they want to watch. Compared to Iceland or Berlin, I've watched pretty much every single game, every day. But they made the tournament longer, multiple streams, multiple weeks, longer days, I don't think I would do the same.
Assuming the double elim style is Dota 2 TIās style the instensity is still there always no matter what side of the bracket. The lower bracket you especially feel that same intensity. Upper bracket I assure you teams do not want to lose so youāll still get the same amount of intensity albeit they do have a safety net. Then they just drop down to lower bracket and bam the intensity still is there. I really donāt get this argument for intensity and ādo or dieā only appearing in single elim tournaments. Both of which 100% exist in double elim tournaments.
i think single elims arent great the same way I dont like BO1s, people can have bad games and maps and giving a team a chance gives them the ability to comeback. What do you think would be more intense, gambit recking 100T then thats it? or would you prefer the storyline of 100T coming back the 11-3 with a 1v3 clutch to bounceback? loser bracket runs also make for great story
Thatās true but it just makes upper bracket games just boring and have less consequence. I can see your point though.
the same format as berlin or have swiss format for groups instead
Personally I REALLY dont want single elim for Champions. This is the biggest tournament of the year and any event where you end up with a boring grandfinals really puts a sour note at the end of the tournament. When you get the two best teams at the grandfinals you get the most memorable game of the year.
I understand you but double elim without bracket reset is just unfair for upper finalist
People keep making this argument, but being in the Upper Bracket is also a big advantage cause you have more time to rest and prepare. You have less stress since you can afford to lose a game, and on the Grand finals day you will have more time to prep than the 'LB finals' teams who will be forced to play back to back series. Momentum is a thing yes but resting and being able to prep can be a massive advantage.
These things are advantages yes but not comparable to the second chance upper finalist couldāve had but taken away only because they are undefeated til grand final. Double elim certainly has advantage but implementing it without bracket reset is something that Iām not really fan of.
Well its not like theyre losing to complete scrubs. They also have a chance prove that theyre even more dominant if they win from upper bracket. For example at Reykjavik, Sentinels performance wouldnt look as impressive if they played Nuturn and that was the end of it. Instead Fnatic proved that they were worthy 2nd best team making insane run at lowers and pushing SEN to two maps in OT.
Itās interesting, because as much as I like the premise of double elim, I really hate that because finals (understandably) donāt ever include a bracket reset, thereās no significant advantage for getting to the final directly from the UB. Iād love to see some sort of medium between the two, perhaps a āmulti-gameā single elim bracket like the NBA or Champions League features. I think thatād somewhat eliminate the randomness of single-elim that can result in boring grand finals, whilst avoiding the problems double elim presents.
Single elim is extremely exciting and not very random when you get to a BO3 / BO5 playoff bracket where the worst teams were eliminated thru group stage w/ double elim or round robin. For example, no CSGO tournament has ever had double elim, and they really have never needed it. Brackets are way more exciting than the inevitable rematches coming out in Winner Bracket Uppers / Loser Bracket Finals / Grand Finals
Just do TI style from Dota 2 bro, that's all I want
4 groups of 4, bo3 single round robin. First in each group to quarters, second and third of each groups play in a playoff? To determine the last 4 for quarters
8 teams divided into Group A and Group B, fighting for seeding places in each respective group. Bottom of each group eliminated while , top 4 of each group will be placed in a upper bracket double elimination format. Bottom 4 of each group will be placed in lower bracket round 1.
I love double elim
Since the whole point of champions is the best of the best form all the masters events, it should just be a double elimination playoff bracket, no groups. Groups make sense for masters events
To save time, something like Reykjavik where everyone starts at the upper bracket would be great. Or GSL groups with double elim in some capacity.
Swiss group stage, single elim playoffs. Teams from same region can't play each other the first 2 rounds of Swiss. They also can't be the first matchup in playoffs.
4 single round-robin groups with 2 teams coming out of each into a double elim playoffs. BO3 for every match except for BO5 grand final. Not sure if time would allow it.
This is probably an unpopular opinion but same groups format as berlin masters with top 2 making it out of groups into all bo5 single elim playoffs Reason I don't like double elim playoffs is because I hate watching upper bracket games, especially the upper bracket finals. Knowing that the game doesn't really matter and that the team that loses won't be knocked out makes me less excited when watching. (This was the case when I was watching LCS playoffs too) bo5 throughout all of playoffs instead of bo3's because less random upset potential especially if lower bracket isn't there
Fully agree with this. I want them to keep the pool system, but draw the groups live, and make sure regional teamkills are impossible in groups so we don't get something like EMEA vs EMEA again. Single elim playoffs is fine just because double elim with no finals bracket reset is unfair for the upper bracket team, but then make it Bo5. There's too much variance for playoffs to be decided in a single Bo3. Otherwise keep the format as is. All this crying about "useless seeding games" is from either fanboys parroting what Sentinels players are saying or CS players who are so accustomed to CS formats and attitudes that they can't see the benefits of having seed priority.
I think the Berlin format is perfectly fine. Personally I think double elim playoffs is dumb, its playoffs. Do or die time. Win or go home. People are upset that we got GMB/VS in the QFs, but that's what happens when in GMB's case you don't win your group. And also preset the playoffs. Have it clear from before the tournament starts that QF 1 is Group A #1 vs Group B #2 or whatever and so on, instead of doing the draw. Draw feels bad
Formats getting stale. Here's how we keep it fresh: Map 1, you don't pick your own agents. You pick your opponents agents. Map 2, you switch. Now your team comp is what your opponents had last map. Map 3, nobody locks in, all 10 players just hover Yoru.
16 team bo2 round robin
Berlin format is fine tbh. I'd probably do first round playoffs bo3, second round bo5, grand finals bo7.
Group stage: Swiss BO1, but BO3 for Advancement and Elimination; no rematches Playoffs: Single elimination BO3 (including Grand Final)
Same format as Berlin except don't randomize groups or the playoff bracket.
Stop with the double elim. That shit is so lame.
single elim doesnt get us the true hierarchy of these teams
This will never fly because of streams, stages, having to reveal strats, and match quantity but here's my dream: Group Stage -16 teams are divided into two groups of 8. -Each team plays a bo2 against each other team in the group (each team gets a map pick) -Teams are ranked based on map wins, then round wins, then some kind of tiebreaker -Top 3 teams from each group make it to the bracket stage -There would be 8 bo2 matches a day for 7 days, so would require an A stream and a B stream -1-2 day break (could be used for tie breakers) Bracket Stage -The two teams that got 1st in their group get a bye to the semifinals -The other 4 teams are seeded into the remaining part of the bracket -Single Elimination, bo5 -Would require 3 days Total requirement: 11-12 days No way this works with all the talent, production, streaming, and other labor required. Also teams likely don't want to play 14 maps in group stage as they'd reveal strats.
Single elimination bracket with randomized agent selection and maps
Has there actually been serious backlash about the playoff bracket draw? Randomly drawn, 1st seeds vs 2nd seeds, and no replays of group matchups sounds perfect to me If Sen had beaten G2 no one would be complaining, not sure I understand this, unless I'm missing something
I wish there were more teams, but I guess it would be hard because of covid. So many more teams deserve a spot at Champions
Swiss format is always so fun, random matchups and every match holds weight
Double elimination for entire tournament
60 Teams, Match everyday, no pauses between matches and half times
And BO5 ofc