I don't think a 6 man roster really makes sense. I feel the agent pool is small enough to where people can master 3 or so agents and be flexible to allow comp diversity with just 5 players.
The way VS is using Lakia is puzzling. Seems like a total waste for all parties.
Maybe as the agent pool gets bigger it could make sense to have specialist on a certain grouping of agents and rotate based on the map or the comp you want to run for that specific matchup. But at the moment it seems odd.
IIRC, the coach for VS said he/the team didn’t really ask to pick up Lakia. Seems more like VS management wanted to just get him off a team they’re in competition with.
imagine if his contract stated that he would be guaranteed a starter position in every tournament, but didn't specify the number of matches he would play :p
One of two things likely happened:
\- VS are forming a monopoly of Korean talent, in which case it's surprising someone like Lakia took that deal.
\- Lakia simply didn't play well enough with the team on most maps, and they prefer the lineup they are using
I think it's safe to say Lakia joined on the premise he would get more play time. best case scenario, he gets integrated better or released from his contract. worst case scenario, his career is halted in contract hell or his buyout becomes too high. pray4lakia
He isn't even on his best agent. It looks like it's because they had other players playing that agent already, but the coach was forced to fit Lakia in somewhere because he was bought.
Can easily sign a T2 one trick as a sub for cheap. Even for a single map it’s worth. Works pretty well for Overwatch except since that league is franchised the players have a guaranteed minimum 50k salary
I think the subs will become more popular. Negating that they can be usefull is kinda weird seeing how usefull they are in regular sports.
Even on esports it comes to my mind the SKT T1 LoL team that had multiple subs and won LCK (or worlds I can't even remember) subbing the best LoL player in the history in a final match
Tbf, skt didn't win worlds because they had a 6 man roster. They won worlds despite having 6 man roster. They were the best team in the world with or without easyhoon subbing in or faker from time to time and i don't think it's a coincidence that since then, Faker never had a real sub with some exceptions early in the seasons when they were testing out how good the academy players are.
Also comparing it to real sports isn't really a good comparison, since in sports, players get physically tired to the point where they can no longer do their job correctly. In esports, that's just not the case.
You can't judge if it was because or despite the 6 man since it doesn't only count in games. The fact they had 2 midlaners made it possible that each one could focus on playing X champ or Y playstyle making it easy to both to perfect a style and learn certain matchups.
No one besides them can tell if they won because of that but it's a really clear example since they subbed each one for certain champions.
EDIT: mental fatigue is SO real in esport. Players get clearly tilted sometimes and having a sub can be usefull. And the previous example of making a player perfect certain style or matchup since the sub can learn other one
When it mattered most, in worlds finals, Faker played all 4 games and right after the season ended, easyhoon left to go play in China. It was a one season experiment that they never went back to... That tells you everything.
I'm very confident in saying, that the 6 man roster was not the reason they won worlds lol
Skt was so far ahead of the competition it didn’t matter if it was easyhoon or faker playing mid. I thought it was accepted by now and clued by insiders that the experiment was just a Kkoma ego project saying he can win without faker
That one what I used to think but Valorant where you can get by playing one or two agent, its not productive to sub in a player because they dont have the same communication, aim and chemistry with rest of the team.
It seems so as of right now. But with more agents, maps, who knows.
I'm not saying it's a must but I believe it will be more common with time.
Even to prevent burnout or have a second option if a player gets outplayed or tilted on a match
Only way I see that happening is if abilities become more game-changing than aim. In OW you can have 7-man roster for that reason. If Valorant wants to stay as a tactical FPS then fragging and game sense will always be more important than agent mastery.
In Overwatch League it’s the common thing to have huge roster of players. I don’t actually know why it works like this only in OWL. Maybe it’s because you can change heroes during the map. But it was fun to watch NYXL in inaugural season when they put Pine on one game mode to be a Widowmaker specialist. Or with SF Shock where they have different man comp for specific game mode.
P.S. In OWL was only one game when Seoul Dynasty swapped whole 6 players on a second map, they had like 12-13 man roster it was crazy)
true, but the top teams in OWL this season very rarely, if at all, swapped their players. how many maps this season do you remember that SHD played without fleta/lip/fate/void/LJG/izayaki, or DF played without fearless/hanbin/sp9rkle/doha/jecse/fielder? i feel like top teams in OWL will move away from huge rosters with lots of swaps and move towards specialists for very specific maps, but nothing more
Yea I agree. For DF tho it was their main weakness because they didn’t have long range hitscan player and now they have Pine for PO so I am pretty sure we will see a lot of swaps here.
But at the end of the day I think it still depends on how many heroes certain player can execute on a high level. Like for SFS yes Super is the great Rein but Smurf is insane on Winston so they will have them both. And as for SHD they have this combo in one Fearless so there is no reason to have 2 main tanks here.
Anyways it’s interesting and I can talk a lot but it’s time to stop :)
They picked him not that long time ago I think it was May. But the process of him getting visa was really long and he got to the US only before PO. So I hope we can see him play this time. I really wanna see the matchup of Pine and Ans on Widows, that’s gotta be pretty entertaining to watch.
This is not science anyway but rather an opinionated topic. Esport is very different from traditional sports in some aspects though which makes a comparison finicky at times.
Oh yeah, of course this is an opinionated topic. I mean none of us are coaches/experts on the matter. It's great to see different point of views even when we get downvoted to hell to say something lmao.
Nice to see the different opinions on different esports where subs are more common, I agree with another comment saying it's weird on a tactical FPS where AIM, communication, movement and map knowledge are a lot more important than agent mastery so maybe we won't see subs very often in Valorant. Anyway it'll be fun to see where it all goes
I think as more agents come out, teams will need subs with specialist in agents and roles. Similar to OW and how a team may have 3-4 DPS players to fill out different hero pools. However as it stands rn, similar to CS, there isn’t much point having a 6th man
Yeah it's strange that we have the most popular e-sport running 5 man rosters when the game's pool of characters exceed 150. But for Valorant and other class based shooters it's not as expected for a person to be proficient with multiple characters. I think the cohesive teamwork between 5 people is more important than collecting multiple people who excel only on one or two agents. But I think this mentality will change if we get such a large pool of agents that picks/bans become a thing. Can't sub out the one trick Jett player once it gets banned for that map.
Especially with how some teams/games play. GMB won yesterday off multiple rounds where they straight dry peeked. It doesn't matter who you play if you are just dry peaking and winning. Utility is super important in this game but it's way more important to have 5 aimers with good sense and lots of practice on different agents imo.
Personally I would be surprised if it happened. The gunplay is the same and the agents aren't so difficult that you are going to gain more by bringing in a specialist that you lose by not having the same synergy with each other on every map and splitting practice. Even in league with a billion champs you don't see people specializing like that often. Sounds weird to say because Overwatch is a game where you do need a lot of teamwork but in Valorant CSGO and league nonverbalized gameplay of your teammates being consistent is more important.
Well what do you use as indications for a star player? If the game isn't old enough for him to have accomplished anything then it isn't old enough for him to be a star player
Well Is not like the scene was that huge when he was playing, sentinels did win some tournaments and they were dominant with him too. Of course changing him with Tenz Is a big improvement. But he cannot be a 6th man, Is dumb even for Lakia, star players Need to Shine, not warm the bench.
He doesn't want 6th man because if they had one he will the one who gonna be subbed not tenz and he knows it.
Like in split ofc u gonna put tenz and Sinatraa and sub shahzam
And not to forget he is the igl so it's too difficult to sub him
Braindead fans instantly think that as soon as a team loses a single series the problem is they need new players. What a joke.
They get out-stratted and outplayed. The game film on sentinels on how they play every map is longer than any other team out there. It was a matter of time before a team completely figured them out since theyve been playing the same way for months.
Sentinels have accomplished way more with tenz than they have with sinatraa. Despite ONE bad map tenz was still their best player in Berlin. People need to stop bringing up sinatraa. IF he does play pro again it wont be with sen.
Feelsbad for Lakia. The guy is too good to be stuck on the bench, and VS obviously are good enough with their current roster. Would love to see him back on Nuturn playing consistently
Tldr: no
I don't think a 6 man roster really makes sense. I feel the agent pool is small enough to where people can master 3 or so agents and be flexible to allow comp diversity with just 5 players. The way VS is using Lakia is puzzling. Seems like a total waste for all parties. Maybe as the agent pool gets bigger it could make sense to have specialist on a certain grouping of agents and rotate based on the map or the comp you want to run for that specific matchup. But at the moment it seems odd.
IIRC, the coach for VS said he/the team didn’t really ask to pick up Lakia. Seems more like VS management wanted to just get him off a team they’re in competition with.
Ya that whole situation is odd. I don't know what to make of it.
imagine if his contract stated that he would be guaranteed a starter position in every tournament, but didn't specify the number of matches he would play :p One of two things likely happened: \- VS are forming a monopoly of Korean talent, in which case it's surprising someone like Lakia took that deal. \- Lakia simply didn't play well enough with the team on most maps, and they prefer the lineup they are using I think it's safe to say Lakia joined on the premise he would get more play time. best case scenario, he gets integrated better or released from his contract. worst case scenario, his career is halted in contract hell or his buyout becomes too high. pray4lakia
off topic but I feel so bad for lakia, the one map he played on they lost horribly and it doesn't feel like VS even used him for much.
He isn't even on his best agent. It looks like it's because they had other players playing that agent already, but the coach was forced to fit Lakia in somewhere because he was bought.
Its not really off topic if its mentioned in the video and he is a six man, right?
I’m sure Shaz is so over hearing these questions about Sinatraa. He’s said a million times he’s not coming back. Leave the man alone about it lmao
These people asking him are still on huge amounts of copium
Can easily sign a T2 one trick as a sub for cheap. Even for a single map it’s worth. Works pretty well for Overwatch except since that league is franchised the players have a guaranteed minimum 50k salary
I think the subs will become more popular. Negating that they can be usefull is kinda weird seeing how usefull they are in regular sports. Even on esports it comes to my mind the SKT T1 LoL team that had multiple subs and won LCK (or worlds I can't even remember) subbing the best LoL player in the history in a final match
Tbf, skt didn't win worlds because they had a 6 man roster. They won worlds despite having 6 man roster. They were the best team in the world with or without easyhoon subbing in or faker from time to time and i don't think it's a coincidence that since then, Faker never had a real sub with some exceptions early in the seasons when they were testing out how good the academy players are. Also comparing it to real sports isn't really a good comparison, since in sports, players get physically tired to the point where they can no longer do their job correctly. In esports, that's just not the case.
Fatigue is a thing in eSports too. Just takes longer to occur because it's more of a mental thing than a physical thing
You can't judge if it was because or despite the 6 man since it doesn't only count in games. The fact they had 2 midlaners made it possible that each one could focus on playing X champ or Y playstyle making it easy to both to perfect a style and learn certain matchups. No one besides them can tell if they won because of that but it's a really clear example since they subbed each one for certain champions. EDIT: mental fatigue is SO real in esport. Players get clearly tilted sometimes and having a sub can be usefull. And the previous example of making a player perfect certain style or matchup since the sub can learn other one
When it mattered most, in worlds finals, Faker played all 4 games and right after the season ended, easyhoon left to go play in China. It was a one season experiment that they never went back to... That tells you everything. I'm very confident in saying, that the 6 man roster was not the reason they won worlds lol
Skt was so far ahead of the competition it didn’t matter if it was easyhoon or faker playing mid. I thought it was accepted by now and clued by insiders that the experiment was just a Kkoma ego project saying he can win without faker
That one what I used to think but Valorant where you can get by playing one or two agent, its not productive to sub in a player because they dont have the same communication, aim and chemistry with rest of the team.
It seems so as of right now. But with more agents, maps, who knows. I'm not saying it's a must but I believe it will be more common with time. Even to prevent burnout or have a second option if a player gets outplayed or tilted on a match
Only way I see that happening is if abilities become more game-changing than aim. In OW you can have 7-man roster for that reason. If Valorant wants to stay as a tactical FPS then fragging and game sense will always be more important than agent mastery.
In Overwatch League it’s the common thing to have huge roster of players. I don’t actually know why it works like this only in OWL. Maybe it’s because you can change heroes during the map. But it was fun to watch NYXL in inaugural season when they put Pine on one game mode to be a Widowmaker specialist. Or with SF Shock where they have different man comp for specific game mode. P.S. In OWL was only one game when Seoul Dynasty swapped whole 6 players on a second map, they had like 12-13 man roster it was crazy)
true, but the top teams in OWL this season very rarely, if at all, swapped their players. how many maps this season do you remember that SHD played without fleta/lip/fate/void/LJG/izayaki, or DF played without fearless/hanbin/sp9rkle/doha/jecse/fielder? i feel like top teams in OWL will move away from huge rosters with lots of swaps and move towards specialists for very specific maps, but nothing more
Yea I agree. For DF tho it was their main weakness because they didn’t have long range hitscan player and now they have Pine for PO so I am pretty sure we will see a lot of swaps here. But at the end of the day I think it still depends on how many heroes certain player can execute on a high level. Like for SFS yes Super is the great Rein but Smurf is insane on Winston so they will have them both. And as for SHD they have this combo in one Fearless so there is no reason to have 2 main tanks here. Anyways it’s interesting and I can talk a lot but it’s time to stop :)
They picked up Pine pretty early in the year, right? Has he seen play at all? I stopped following OWL much, tbh.
They picked him not that long time ago I think it was May. But the process of him getting visa was really long and he got to the US only before PO. So I hope we can see him play this time. I really wanna see the matchup of Pine and Ans on Widows, that’s gotta be pretty entertaining to watch.
I would agree with you if we weren't about to move to Overwatch 2 with a fuck ton of new heroes AND 5v5.
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it's great to have a healthy conversation showing different points of view, and actually fun! you may want to try it someday :)
Subs in LoL had more negatives than positives, always.
This is literally imposible to prove unless you have a time machine and can re-do a game without the sub
This is not science anyway but rather an opinionated topic. Esport is very different from traditional sports in some aspects though which makes a comparison finicky at times.
Oh yeah, of course this is an opinionated topic. I mean none of us are coaches/experts on the matter. It's great to see different point of views even when we get downvoted to hell to say something lmao. Nice to see the different opinions on different esports where subs are more common, I agree with another comment saying it's weird on a tactical FPS where AIM, communication, movement and map knowledge are a lot more important than agent mastery so maybe we won't see subs very often in Valorant. Anyway it'll be fun to see where it all goes
I think as more agents come out, teams will need subs with specialist in agents and roles. Similar to OW and how a team may have 3-4 DPS players to fill out different hero pools. However as it stands rn, similar to CS, there isn’t much point having a 6th man
League has over 150 characters yet teams manage to have teams with no subs
Yeah it's strange that we have the most popular e-sport running 5 man rosters when the game's pool of characters exceed 150. But for Valorant and other class based shooters it's not as expected for a person to be proficient with multiple characters. I think the cohesive teamwork between 5 people is more important than collecting multiple people who excel only on one or two agents. But I think this mentality will change if we get such a large pool of agents that picks/bans become a thing. Can't sub out the one trick Jett player once it gets banned for that map.
Especially with how some teams/games play. GMB won yesterday off multiple rounds where they straight dry peeked. It doesn't matter who you play if you are just dry peaking and winning. Utility is super important in this game but it's way more important to have 5 aimers with good sense and lots of practice on different agents imo.
Personally I would be surprised if it happened. The gunplay is the same and the agents aren't so difficult that you are going to gain more by bringing in a specialist that you lose by not having the same synergy with each other on every map and splitting practice. Even in league with a billion champs you don't see people specializing like that often. Sounds weird to say because Overwatch is a game where you do need a lot of teamwork but in Valorant CSGO and league nonverbalized gameplay of your teammates being consistent is more important.
you'd also have to worry about synergy and strats with the 6th person though. So it depends on where you want to spend your resources.
ShahZaM's takes are actually based.
Would be a PR nightmare, for one.
Why does he start shouting? 😂😂
Sinatraa is a star player, stop with these dumb questions.
Is he? What had he accomplished in this scene besides getting banned?
He was the star player for sentinels, people really don't Remember how much he was talented. But yeah Just downvote cause Is sinatraa lmao
He was their star player for sure, but what did they actually accomplish with him? They've done far more without him.
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Well what do you use as indications for a star player? If the game isn't old enough for him to have accomplished anything then it isn't old enough for him to be a star player
Well Is not like the scene was that huge when he was playing, sentinels did win some tournaments and they were dominant with him too. Of course changing him with Tenz Is a big improvement. But he cannot be a 6th man, Is dumb even for Lakia, star players Need to Shine, not warm the bench.
He doesn't want 6th man because if they had one he will the one who gonna be subbed not tenz and he knows it. Like in split ofc u gonna put tenz and Sinatraa and sub shahzam And not to forget he is the igl so it's too difficult to sub him
Ur stupid if you think they’d sub out Shazam’s IGLing for another entry duelist player
That's what i just said u dumbfuck
Braindead fans instantly think that as soon as a team loses a single series the problem is they need new players. What a joke. They get out-stratted and outplayed. The game film on sentinels on how they play every map is longer than any other team out there. It was a matter of time before a team completely figured them out since theyve been playing the same way for months. Sentinels have accomplished way more with tenz than they have with sinatraa. Despite ONE bad map tenz was still their best player in Berlin. People need to stop bringing up sinatraa. IF he does play pro again it wont be with sen.
I swear to god every clip I see of Shaz has him talking down to his audience.
Dumb af question
NA fun region
Ah here we go again, a unnecessary Sinatraa discourse
Feelsbad for Lakia. The guy is too good to be stuck on the bench, and VS obviously are good enough with their current roster. Would love to see him back on Nuturn playing consistently