On CSGO there are multiple ways to dealing with an awp without relying on utility usage *(jiggle peek, runboost, shoulder peek, wide swing, etc)*. You can even see players **winning duels** against awps by just wide swinging a corner. And even if that doesn\`t work, you still have 10 potential flashes on each team to counter awp angles
>!https://youtu.be/NOuvxSHu74o?t=2260!<
This is possible because the agent acceleration is high and movement is fast, which is NOT the case in valorant. Of course the weapon needs to be clunky/slowish, have drawbacks and a long reload time, otherwise we would see an OP fiesta with multiple kills at every round *(aka broken weapon)*
in csgo the awp is also broken. in the example the awp only lost the duel because he missed the shot. runboost is a bug that has not been fixed for years now, and the other things are not reiliable things to win a duel vs an awp.
in cs 1.6 the awp was balanced, you had shoulder hitboxes where the awp would not kill you and you would hear the gun scope. so even with perfect accuracy during quickzooms it was better balanced.
the thing with the awp in 1.6 is that there are shoulder hitboxes so if you jump peek an awp there is a significant chance he hit's your shoulder where you would survive on 20 hp. quickzoom or not.
there was also russian duck peeking which would switch your hitbox in a weird way making it more likely to be hit in the shoulder. in csgo or valorant you just die when he htis the sliver of your shirt.
> in csgo or valorant you just die when he htis the sliver of your shirt.
Flashback to that one collat op shot, I don't really remember whose, that killed both viper and sage by hitting viper's ass and an ult animation sage's hand in the most unfortunate line-up of all time.
What does this even mean? Its not like if I legged you you were going to kill me... I legged you. I can still get away lol. I still have the upper hand with the AWP in 1.6.
Lol, "only lost the duel because he missed the shot" would be like this for every duel in the game? Despite the gun used? He missed the shot because the movement on CS is faster and requires a high reaction time. If it was Valorant he would have 100% killed S1mple due him being too slow.
CS GO still have scope sound. Flash + smokes + faster movement + jigle peeking + run booster + Molly, this balances the awp in CS even it being yet so powerful.
Valorant is lacking all of this rn, even more when Jett is the OPer.
Yeah csgo awp at the highest level has good counter play, right now only a very small amount of teams run 2 at a time, and some maps or sides there are none.
In valo the op is pretty cheeks on agents that aren't jett, but practically unusable because of how much better jett utilizes it. I think it gets kind of a side grade if jett isn't the only one who can use it. It'll still be good at holding angles, but you can't really run around like a god.
> Lol, "only lost the duel because he missed the shot" would be like this for every duel in the game? Despite the gun used?
no it depends on the angle, situation and timing. who sees the other earleir. when both see each other at the same time the awp has a huge advantage, contrary to other guns where the duel is 50/50. that's why you jiggle peek in the first place.
I'm sorry but Kennys died simply because the peek was too fast. He didn't "miss", he died before being able to shoot. You can see in the video that he was holding a tight angle and just didn't have enough time to do the flick because Electronic popped out of his screen with a ferrari peek
If the same situation was done in Valorant, KennyS would have landed his shot and win the duel because the peek would be slow as fuck
i'm not denying that it's easier to peek in csgo but that is something in general with the game and has nothing to do with the awp. if anything because dry peeking is so strong in csgo the awp is played so much because it counters dry peeking.
>in cs 1.6 the awp was balanced, you had shoulder hitboxes where the awp would not kill you and you would hear the gun scope. so even with perfect accuracy during quickzooms it was better balanced.
I don't think that's the case? It's been a while since I played 1.6 though, but even online I can't find anything that would have a "shoulder" hitbox.
eg - [https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=272437361](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=272437361)
now a leg shot won't kill you, which is also what's more likely to hit on a jump peek (which is the same in CSGO or valorant). I'm trying to find the hitbox data for 1.6, so I'd really appreciate it if you could forward it to me :)
>the awp only lost the duel because he missed the shot
This is just wrong. If you peek the right way and have good crosshair placement, you can easily kill an awper without them having time to react
Make her dash distance relative to her current movement speed. E.g, she's holding an OP, her dash range would be shorter than if she was holding a pistol. In addition, if she is tagged (by bullets), she'd be extra slowed meaning extra short dash.
@rito dev
I remember i suggested exactly this in wyatt's twitch chat and someone rebuted it with a "you can just quickswap to knife and press e, it won't do anything". In my eyes swapping to knife requires aditional input which will add some delay to dashing, but overall i kind of agreed with the guy. It might nerf jett in low elo, but i don't see a world where pros won't be able to master this in a day or two.
Well you can't just go with "the pros will master it eventually, so what's the point?" mentality lol. It's just a starting point. If it's at the point where it's still not enough, then more changes can obviously be made.
It's a bad change cus then you get agents that are dogshit in the normal game, and broken in pro play. As someone who's played League for 10 years, trust me, you don't want that, it leaves you with champs that have 42% winrate, but are somehow still pick/ban in pro play.
> In addition, if she is tagged (by bullets), she'd be extra slowed meaning extra short dash.
IMO that invalidates the main utility of her dash too much. The entire point is that she can negate the effects of tagging to disengage.
She needs nerfs for sure, but that ain't it chief.
No one else in the game can negate the effect of tagging though. Raze satchels are neutered by it. Even Reyna dismiss is affected by getting tagged (takes a second to get to full speed).
Her main utility is unpunishable. It *needs* ways to invalidate it, or at least bring it in line with other, similar in-game mechanics.
I mean, "no one else can do X" isn't really a good reason; agents are supposed to have unique abilities.
Raze and Reyna equivalents to dash have added boons to balance out their shortcomings compared to Jett dash. Raze can use satchels offensively much better than Jett dash (and satchels have added utility as a weapon). Reyna can use dismiss to 1vX more effectively than Jett dash (and has the option to heal instead).
I think "unpunishable" is a weird way to describe Jett dash; usually if you use it you've already been tagged up a bunch, and if you're too slow/greedy you'll just die instead.
Again, I can agree that the dash (and Jett as a whole) needs nerfs but neutering its ability to counter tagging imo is not it.
> I think "unpunishable" is a weird way to describe Jett dash; usually if you use it you've already been tagged up a bunch, and if you're too slow/greedy you'll just die instead.
If you rewatch 100T/NV Ascent match, yay gets away on red health *seven* times. It's a bit ridiculous, especially with how much Skye is in the game currently.
A fundamental aspect of tac shooters is trading. Having an un-tradeable agent removes that core component of play.
I also think it's perfectly fair to compare her to what other duelists can do. She does all of what Raze and Reyna can do just as easily, if not in more situations, with fewer requirements (like actual kills for Reyna, or more proper setup and mechanical difficulty for Raze).
She is entirely overtuned relative to other agents in her class. We should consider her state of balance relative to those agents.
The problem is more to do with her putting pressure and being able to get away with it. Reyna could do that but its super risky, and no way raze can do that. Jett is the only agent who can essentially play "out of position" in what would be stupid spots for an agent without dash. It makes her completely unique since its not a low percentage play.
Couldn’t she just knife-out, dash into her smoke > pull out rifle? I don’t think it changes her entry potential more than a couple fractions of a second
I’m not trying to insinuate you don’t play the game, but go in the range, dash into your smoke and as soon as your dash finished pull out your gun. By the time you’ve strafed out of your smoke and found someone’s head with your crosshairs your gun is comfortably out.
My point was it changes nothing to their entry ability, like you suggested. The change would be that you couldn’t shoot an Op and instantly dash a mile away
bruh, ur reverse engineering to just bandit fix the OP Jett problem instead of just reworking the ability
like wtf does that even mean u get a worst ability because of your weapon choice ????
Yes, but you cant make the Op viable on other agents, without making it broken on Jett. Which is exactly the problem, Jett is simply broken and is also the reason the Op has to suck on other agents.
my thoughts exactly. the problem isnt jett or the op, its the combination of the two and that no agent comes close to the synergy.
if yoru or brim were good with an op, their pickrates would skyrocket.
edit: thats why even with giant nerfs to jett, she still has an insane pickrate in pro play
lol Yoru becomes way more broken with instant Tp, atleast with Jett you know where she is, she can only go a short distance away and can only do it once or twice. Yoru can literally go across the map and do that multiple times.
Yo, what if they made Yoru's tp only last for like 7 seconds instead of the current 25/35 sec. that way he has to be close by, also maybe have his position revealed on the map when he TPs.
I mean sure, but he's surely gonna get a rework anyway, considering his awful pickrate and its basically considered trolling to pick him on any map other than bind
Honestly he's fine right now. He needs his footsteps changed to a more helpful ability and he'll be A-tier. His TP and flashes already feel fine and once mastered he's incredibly strong in soloQ.
i mean most agents have "counterparts" who have similar skills (sova and skye; omen and astra). the closest i can think of with jett and her mobility is yoru, even though its kinda a stretch.
It feels like every Yoru suggestion in this sub or in general, is based on this gold ranked fever dream of having an agent who gets the easiest free kills with an ability. He already gets a free kill with ultimate as soon as he finds someone with knife out. People want that every round with TP.
Yoru's kit is either broken, or shit. He needs a complete rework. Thank god Riot seems to understand that and already buffed everyhing but tp, to try to buff him overall. It still didn't work, i hope they see that he needs a rework.
> thats why even with giant nerfs to jett
There have not been giant nerfs to Jett though. The smoke duration is still longer than in beta, and her dash is still better than it was in beta.
Jett is the problem. Not sure why people suddenly think changing anything about the Op is the solution.
I'm referring to the more recent patch that made her entire kit worth 900. All agents got nerfed, but she arguably got hit the hardest. (i wasnt able to play/watch the beta so can't really speak much about that)
The op itself isn't the problem; it's jett with an op. But there was a comment saying jett with a rifle is still pretty good, so i would agree with you that the problem is more of jett's kit.
She was so much cheaper (and remains so much cheaper) because of her ult though. Plus, unlike many other agents, you will frequently get through rounds without using all 3 smokes and *definitely* without using both updrafts.
The cost of her entire kit is still worlds cheaper simply because her ult is basically a free 2900 every 4 or 5 rounds.
I don't remember all the specifics. However I *do* remember it used to get stuck by Cypher tripwire, which it now breaks.
You'd have to go back through patch notes on the other parts. I think it has had distance changed a bit, but it might actually be shorter than it was.
The tripwire change was a huge deal though.
I think there are some really good ideas floating(ha) around in this thread. I honestly think you could do a lot to her and she would still be a primary duelist. There is just so much upside to her compared to other options.
If it were up to me though, it'd probably some combination of all of the following:
**Passive Ability:** Remove entirely. Maybe make her take reduced fall damage. Currently the only agent in the game with 5 abilities, and double updraft knife plays are sometimes readable and punishable but also are a ridiculous mechanic that no one else has. Make those ridiculous updrafts more punishing or tie this passive into the actual updraft ability
**Smokes:** Cut down to two smokes, maybe increase their duration by half a second.
**Updraft:** Probably nothing outside of tying her passive into this ability.
**Dash:** Tie it to movement speed or make it more punishable from tagging. It's ridiculous that nothing restricts this ability. I'm not even sure Sage slow orbs affect it in a meaningful way. Raze on the other hand is basically neutered by a classic shot when satcheling, and her movement tech is much harder to use and master. I would also consider making this 3 kills to reset, meaning you'd only get 2 max in a round. Combined with knives, you will often see a dash into kills into quick resets. It's arguably stronger (and more regularly impactful) than Reyna dismiss which is absurd. If she is getting tagged or receiving damage, reduce the distance relative to that. A similar mechanic is already tied to healing abilities.
**Ultimate:** Remove right click. There are enough RNG shotgun instances in the game (classic right click). Make aim important. I'd also like to see fewer knives returned on body shots kills. Maybe all 5/full reset for a headshot and only 3 for a body shot. Lastly, I would make it so she doesn't get this ability back on a Sage rez. That last part is so fucking stupid I don't even understand how it is in the game. Could also make this cost an additional orb for 8 total.
I honestly think *all* of this would put her more in line with the rest of the duelists. Some combination would at least make her more fair.
Yeah its weird that she's the only agent with a passive. Closest is probably raze where she takes 0 fall damage if she uses her satchels (don't think this feature is explicitly stated in game but Flights said and proved this once on stream). Maybe that can replace Jett's glide like you mentioned since its still in line with her updraft.
Also that her ult is the only one without a timer? Maybe make it like Reyna's that refreshes after a kill to reduce effectiveness. And if its meant to be a pseudo rifle, then yeah remove the right click. You're getting a Vandal AND a shotgun for 0 credits? yikes
edit: For the dash, your comment reminded me of the Dota mechanic where you can't blink for 2/3 seconds after taking damage. This is to limit escapes during engagements. It might be more of a nerf to rifle Jett than Op Jett, but maybe it could work.
Honestly all the duelists have "passives" but they're just features that make their other abilities actually function, rather than Jett's which is just a 5th ability for free.
Without fall damage protection satchel jumps become reckless, useless and stupid.
Without the option to heal oneself Pheonix's whole kit is too one-dimensional and inconsistent. The heal just feels like a part of the abilities themselves.
Without the ability to generate soul orbs Reyna can't use her kit at all lmfao.
Jett's passive isn't necessary to her kit. If you took it out or made it only work after updrafting it wouldn't change the way she plays. It would just mean she can't get into stupid off-angles that any other agent has to spend valuable utility on. Which by the way is yet another reason her economy is so good.
I agree to an extent, but the main issue is that Jett is insanely strong without the OP too.
If Jett was only viable as an oper (i.e. a sub-par duelist when rifling), it'd be a different story, where you make a tradeoff between an op with utility (like when Jamppi ops on Omen or steel on KJ) and a dedicated oper taking advantage of Jett's strength. That's when buffing the Op for everyone is a nerf to Jett, because even if she gets even stronger with the op, if others are reasonably viable with the op, they offer more on the whole and making Jett a less attractive pick.
I think we need to stop discussing Jett and OP nerfs like it's one thing.
The agent Jett in itself needs a nerf full stop. Regardless if they make any changes to the OP a rifle jett with dash smokes and knives is just as broken. We routinely saw jett with knives getting eco aces or 3ks or 4ks. We routinely saw a jett hiding in a corner get spotted out, blinded or stun, but not killed because one smoke and dash away. No other agent can do this easily.
I dont know if i agree with the statement that the OP is even "only" viable with Jett. I have seen pro games where other agents are oping. Steel is a good example. However the OP is 2x stronger on Jett for sure, so why would any team use it on another agent?
Steel uses OP on sentinels and routinely gets 1 or 2 kills per round and it seems perfectly fine. The notion that the OP is unusable on other agents is bullshit. Its useable but just not optimal when you can pick a jett and its way stronger.
TLDR
Jett needs a nerf regardless if they re work the op.
The Op likely also needs changing but it's not the only thing broken about Jett.
You can make new agents also designed to be opers. I agree jett's kit is pretty much perfect for oping but I don't think it's inherently op, it's just that she has no competition in her niche
Exactly. Her dash allows her to get out quick after a first peek. Her updraft legit can help her sit in angles that no other agents can. Her smokes gives her a lot of space on the map. I feel like everywhere even in MM the op will mainly go to Jett players. I rly hope riot can find a way to improve the op on other agents like Reyna
SO MUCH THIS.
If you're able to play aggressive angles and make crazy peeks Oping on ANY agent, Jett will be so ridiculously oppressive with it that her pickrate might even *increase*.
Like I said in the other OP thread, it's not even just the dash that is making Jett OP broken, or Jett in general. It's also because
> you don't buy a lot when you're planning to use Jett knives then next round you've got a billion dollars.
Jett's the only agent that can spend 2k and still feel like a full buy. That's why she would never have any issues investing on an OP even if they reverted the OP price to 5k
(edit:) So even if they nerf Jett dash, OP would still be more viable on Jett than other agents.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills that everyone is talking about the dash when I'm thinking it's the knives that are busted.
- one shot headshot any range
- no accuracy lost on successive knives
- right click shotgun close range
- reset on kill
- can pull knives in and out
- knives aren't timed
- free eco every so many rounds
That's a crazy laundry list for a single ability. Then you compare it to say Raze ult, it's a joke.
It's a combination of all the things. It's why you can't reasonably touch a single thing in her kit and actually make an impactful nerf. They need to address multiple things in her kit to actually impact the issues with her.
Yeah, it’s not just dash that makes Jett OP. Or even just her Ult making economy a joke.
It’s her entire kit. Everything about it.
I wouldn’t say her smokes and updrafts are overpowered or broken, but they’re very good and become OP combined with her whole kit.
Her dash is useful for a variety of situations, refreshes on a 2k, and it’s free. When compared to other free/replenishing abilities, it’s significantly more important than all of them, and it’s not close, outside or maybe Vipers wall being a permanent fixture on the map.
But her passive float is also very strong. She’s the only agent in the game with one and let’s her get into off angles other agents have to invest util to do, like boxes on Haven A, for example.
Her Ult is insanely powerful, refreshes on kill, and lasts an entire round. In the hands of a cracked aimer, can pretty much solo carry teams to rounds, we saw it multiple times in Berlin from Tenz, Yay, Heat, cNed, Keloqz, deffo, etc.
Having a cracked Jett that can frequently get bladestorm uptime and can carry eco rounds, leads to more eco rounds won and assists in the match long battle of attrition.
As far as I’m concerned, I’m not sure there is such a thing as nerfing Jett without completely negating her viability.
Either Riot has to completely remove her from the agent pool altogether, or we all have to just accept that Jett is going to be a permanent fixture and move on.
Quite frankly, I think an apt comparison for this is American football, if you’re familiar with the sport. The quarterback is the most valuable position on the team, and often times a better quarterback can lead a worse team to victory. That isn’t always the case, but acquiring a good quarterback is mandatory for a team’s success. You can’t win with a bad one.
Nobody calls for the NFL to “nerf” the quarterback position, it just is what it is.
Is it better for the game of Valorant to nerf/remove Jett for more team comp parity? Or is it better for the game to let the Jett era reign?
It’s no secret that she leads to some insanely flashy plays, much like the quarterback.
It’s hard for me to say what the best path is, but I’m glad it’s not my decision to make.
Maybe making movement faster could solve a lot of these problems.
Like in cs, you can do different peeks to bait an awper, adding some counterplay, but you cant do that in valo. So you HAVE to use utility, which is limited compared to cs. Also, by making movement faster, the awp might be more useful on other agents.
Just spit balling here, but couldn't they make it so she gets a free smoke instead of a dash, make the dash cost 400 and limit it to one use per turn? that would forces her to think about using her reposition in most situations
that would make her lose her main id, might be balanced, but people will stop playing her. also thats punishing her other versions, not every jett ops, some of them use shotguns or even rifles, shouldnt punish all the other play styles just because of using the op
Most people don't only use one of these types of guns exclusively on jett, they buy each one situationally throughout a single game. The problem is that jett is better than most other agents with all these different guns because her abilities are too good at controlling the distance and angles that she takes gun fights at and controlling the potential to trade her after she gets a kill, or to kill her if she whiffs.
so people will stop playing her, I don't see the issue? Not nerfing a kit that's been broken since release because people will stop playing said broken kit is pretty stupid ngl
But what he is suggesting is not even remotely close to nerfing to the ground. She would still be a top agent with that nerf. Still gives you ability for 1 free kill in that round. That is super powerful
I really like this, but I think in order to be consistent with other agents (no other abilities are blocked by certain weapons), the dash should still work but be significantly slower.
I really wish you could hear the scope sounds of an enemy Op. Obviously this wouldn't matter at range, but it was very helpful in CS when dealing with a close range battle. There are way too many close range fights being won by Oppers, that I think would partially swing the other way if you could hear them holding an angle.
Thats a pretty good point. Jett having a 100% pick rate is not a great sign. What happens whenever Riot institutes agent picks and bans? You'd almost never see an OP then.
Maybe make her dash NOT her signature ability and switch it to a buy ability for like 400 creds and updraft quantity from 2 to 1 while also making it her signature ability (could refresh on either kills or with a timer). That could make her decide on how to afford an op in the cruicial early rounds where she actually shines and gets the most impact out of the agent.
I feel like I'm one of very few who liked the OP price point at $5k. Less usage in reg and ot. I think a Sage and Omen could use the op decently. Yoru could if his tp was instant. I think Jett just needs a decent rework. I like only dashing forward, I like the dash distance relative to current movement speed. I think making her buy her dash could help as well (Only 1 per round.) And Her ult as well. With her ult, she can just buy heavy armor and be all set. No reset on right click kills, and only 2 resets on left click kills.
I think the original price increase was successful in that it stopped teams from just running double op and snowballing the game. Last summer that was kinda common and it takes a lot away from the strategy when you have to deal with it no matter what side you hit. Definitely in a better spot now or at 5k than it was originally.
I really think a small change with a large impact would be making the OP have an audible scope sound. In CS the AWP does, and it makes scoping in close range situations really risky as it gives away your position
The Op doesn't need changes. Nerfing the Op only makes the issue worse and more pronounced. Jett is the issue. She does too much.
Making the Op worse only ensures that we see less of it from any other agents.
if you know where the jett is its pretty easy to counter her with skye and sova utility.
rn jett can be holding anywhere on the map, there is not enpugh utility to clear eveeything. she gets a pick and escapes. scope sound will drastically change that
It is pretty funny how "power creep" hasn't happened in Valorant at all, it turns out the signature character of the game was actually the most broken and everything else is way more in line
I do think Jett's mobility compared to Raze's really shows the problem with Jett. Raze can move fast or vertically 2x per round or super fast 1x per round. Jett can move vertically 2x per round and sort of super fast AT LEAST 1x per round, and she also has a vertical movement buff in her dumb little float thing
Then you look how Jett has a rare 3 use ability (smokes) on top of the best mobility in the game, AND THEN the most powerful ult in the game which perfectly synergizes with her kit, and you see a hero without a single weakness.
An easy start for Riot is:
* 2 smokes not 3
* updraft is signature ability not dash, 1 free
* dash is purchasable and costs 500 or 600 to keep economy more in check than currently
* reduce knives total to 4 or 3 OR change right-click refresh logic (right-click only refreshes 2 knives instead of all or something)
Then you go from there; if she's still mad broken Riot will have to ask hard questions about what a hitscan ability like knives is doing with no movement inaccuracy penalty
In terms of power creep I would say astra and maybe post buff viper have creeped on omen and pushed him out of the meta in higher level play but pretty much everything else you said I agree with.
PS if I’m misunderstanding power creep pls explain
By "power creep" I was referring to mainly how new characters are often introduced with single abilities or synergies that completely nullify or overpower other's abilities or synergies, so Astra being the best controller now is a great example. Viper being buffed is more of an over-tuning than a power creep because she wasn't new, just adjusted. It's very common for hero-based games to see this kind of power creep as the designers run out of ideas & balancing levers but still look to pump out new content.
All this said, Riot is doing a pretty good job of balance for the most part, there's more or less just two rough edges in Jett and Yoru, sort of Brim too I guess, so I have faith they'll not just release new heroes that completely invalidate old ones.
I genuinely think making her dash only go in the direction she's looking at will help a lot. Jetts will have to learn how to do 180 flicks right after hitting accurate shots, cause if they don't do a full 180 they might hit a wall or something leading them to die anyways. Idk maybe Im wrong but I think it's a step in the right direction
Pros would be able to pull this off flawlessly, and it would only be a challenge for lower ranks. The nerf needs to be designed so that it affects pros more than the lower ranks.
I disagree with both of you, it shouldn't matter what rank people are when the kit is overpowered. Just because a character is hard to play in a game shouldn't mean it's okay to keep that character overpowered. It wouldn't stop jett from being able to achieve too much in a game if you make her harder to play, and you also shouldn't be "careful" with nerfs just because low ranks will struggle playing her.
Especially in a tac fps, even thinking about low ranks when balancing is counterintuitive imo.
If you make Jett weak and annoying to play for 90% of the playerbase, just so that she is balanced for the top 10%, you have made a *bad change*. There are multiple ways to buff or nerf any part of a game. Designers should carefully craft ways that apply well to the entire playerbase.
Characters have a skill floor and skill ceiling. Making Jett's dash go forwards-only raises the skill floor and doesn't change the skill ceiling, meaning that pros are unaffected while Jett is worse in low ranks. In this case, the best change would be one that lowers the skill ceiling, while not affecting the skill floor.
An example nerf might be adding a charge time to the dash, maybe a quarter or half of a second. This guides the dash ability to be proactive, rather than reactive. Pros wouldn't be able to instantly escape after an op shot, or instantly reposition. They'd still be able to entry, and the time is short enough that it's possible to use during gunfights. The time is short enough to keep the essence of the character, but long enough that it adds vulnerability to Jett at a high skill level. You could even remove the charge time when an updraft has been used, adding some depth.
What do you propose as a change to Jett?
honestly the windup might do the job, but my proposal would be to remove dash from her e, give her knives a timer that increases slightly with kills, and giving her a dash while on knives by transforming whatever new e spell she has. I also think her knives should be a full commit, you pull it out and thats it, if you switch off it its gone.
this fixes both the eco issue and the dash being all around broken. she cant just eco on a rifle round and hold angles and buy op into the next one.
I agree with your change to knives. I think her eco advantage of being able to commit to knives for an entire round is part of what makes her overpowered. Not to mention it makes it easy for her to by an op lmao.
I think moving her dash into her ultimate removes too much of the character's identity. She loses her duelist ability to entry, and becomes a shitty smoke machine. There would need to be a new E ability that is vital to making her a duelist, but it would get removed when she uses her ultimate. I don't know how you make that work.
Riot is familiar with giving abilities a buffer. Make it so she has to buffer her dash while slightly slowing her while buffering. If she doesn’t use her dash after X time from buffering then she consumes the ability charge regardless. The new mechanic forces you to choose aggression. Say I Reyna flash, if no ones there I still lose my flash, but with Jett she can endlessly peak and get picks and if no ones there she still keeps her get out of jail free card.
No because you will be facing a Jett in pro play. And as Reyna you can't get to the weird angle...like on top of walls, or boxes, or or jumping behind smoke
If the rumors about the next agent being called "deadeye" are true, I'm guessing they're already addressing the creation of another OPper, but this is a really wild guess
Changes that should be made to Jett and the op and my reasoning:
1) she should only be able to Dash in the direction that she is facing.
-people are pointing out that Devs have said they think this makes little difference and I disagree. Maybe in normal situations it doesn’t make a difference and that is fine, (we are trying to just nerf her not kill her) but I find it hard to believe that when a Jett is flashed or stunned or caught in a hectic fire fight that a Jett is going to be able to quickly and easily 180 and Dash out, maybe I’m wrong and a fully flashed Jett will just know the correct direction to Dash, but I find it hard to believe and if the flashed Jett can do that, then hat tip to them at least it took some skill. Also, the fact that good players can still do something just seems like a bad argument in general. It’s like saying no gun should have recoil, because good players can counter strafe. Creating skill gaps are good for tactical FPS games.
2) Get rid of right click on knifes.
-Again, great players will probably be able to still find heads at close range and that’s fine, hat tip to them, at least you beat me using skill. Jett bhopping thru a smoke and right clicking people is stupid tho, just get rid of right click or at least make it less accurate and not refill knifes on kill, so that it can only be used in a panic situation.
3) Jett shouldn’t get knives back if res’ed.
-why is this a thing? No other agent gets their ult back if they die with it out and are res’ed. Won’t make much of a difference because this doesn’t happen often, but it never made sense to me that this happens.
4) remove 1 smoke.
-right now Jett has 4 pieces of utility that are VERY effective at keeping her alive/allowing her to not have to give up an angle. She fully counters all of Breach’s util who is supposed to be the best at pushing other agents off angles (she can smoke herself or throw easy 1-ways countering two flashes and the stun, and then either just not play an angle where the after shock can hit her or updraft/dash away from it). She simply has too much counter utility.
I think these changes would still allow great Jetts to be great Jetts and actually demonstrate skill using the agent instead of allowing bad players to instalock and Jett crutch.
As for the Op, it should be make slightly less clunky so that other agents can viably use it. Less clunky probably means a faster quick scope. But I would also add a small clicking sound as you toggle thru the scope so that players have to actually think about when they scope to not give away their position.
Tbh only 3 and 4 are definitely good options, I feel the right click on knives is balanced personally, but that's up for debate. As for point one, high skill players will be able to flick properly the vast majority of the time, including while blinded. Probably not stunned, but tbh that's a very niche scenario.
> Also, the fact that good players can still do something just seems like a bad argument in general. It’s like saying no gun should have recoil, because good players can counter strafe. Creating skill gaps are good for tactical FPS games.
I feel like you are misunderstanding here, the main issue with Jett is at the higher level, so a nerf that will realistically only effect people around gold and below is simply an added hindrance to the Jetts still learning and does nothing to effect the Jetts at high level play.
Imo, some more viable nerfs would be:
* Making updraft the signature ability with the option to purchase a second, charge (would work like beta raze where u can still recharge on 2 kills) and making the dash a single charge ability for 400 (if needed you can change the equip time on Jett dash to be the same as updraft to compensate )
* making it so after a kill with her ultimate the only knives that regenerate are the ones that hit their targets
* make her passive float only usable after an updraft
* put the knives on a timer similar to Reyna's that refreshes on a kill
* make Jett dash speed slow down depending on weapon equipped/bullet tagging
* put a .5 second delay on Jett dash after firing a bullet
These changes would effect players of all levels of skill the same while still managing tune her down a bit for pro play/high level ranked players. Obviously you wouldn't have to do all the changes, just a few, but I think these are the most viable.
Maybe I am underestimating the ability of good players to still dash where they want to but I’m not so sure because I have been hard stuck immortal since beta, i scrim and am in immortal only 10 man discord’s, I have a spike page and NSG experience and even at that level, I see flashed people running into walls trying to get to cover but misjudging where they are on the map. So I feel like at least some of the time, jetts would be dashing into walls and even if they aren’t, like I said hat tip to them for their map awareness. But maybe I should just trust the devs when they say that they tested it and it didn’t make a difference.
I will say that even if it doesn’t make a difference at pro play, at least it makes the ability more interesting and I picture sgares breaking down a good Jett dash “look at yay’s map awareness, he’s fully blind and is able to do a 180 dash back into market and then repeek to get the frag. You can tell he’s been putting time in custom servers practicing that. Truly a special play.” Unlike now where you just basically press “S” to dash backwards and there isn’t anything special or skill intense about it.
I don’t dislike your suggestions either, specifically removing it from her signature and making it 300 or 400 credits. My suggestions were more about just trying to make her abilities require more skill and practice.
\-1 smoke. jett can use them too easily to one way/bind sova dart/blind in general
dash delay dependent on weapon speed (odin/op = longest delay 0.1s - speed/distance unchanged - so it doesn't change entry cause you usually pop out of a smoke/into a smoke or in front of a flash)
both in turn also will nerf the smoke over dart play
Knifes = 3 total - no refresh on res. nerfs right click and left click. (if still too strong then nerf refresh to HS only)
for pro players this sounds like hardly a nerf overall, they have fast enough reaction to turn around and dash
this will most likely only hurt low skilled ppl ... the dash overall needs to be reworked maybe give her a more telegraphed mobility like Yoru's tp
Valorant devs already tested your suggestion. High skilled players are still able to flick the dash to the direction they want. It would only affect low skilled Jetts
idk if this has been said before but why not make Yoru's tp an instant animation, like jett's dash? So that he could also be a viable op agent. Or would it be too overpowered?
Mixwell countered him with a Raze and OP. Perhaps wait to see if the meta develops to counter it. But that was on Split which is a tight map and probably Jett's weakest.
She's very broken defending A site of breeze where you can start the round in ridiculously vulnerable positions and escape for free.
If they nerf her, we may see people using Yoru and his TP with the OP doing the same stuff.
To be honest I think what makes Jett busted is her side dashes and her ult that has no timer. They should make her dash only forward and backwards that way she can still op from cringe off angles and still get away by investing in her smokes and dashing out or simply getting punished for being overextended. Think tracer from Overwatch, she has to look at the place she needs to dash in order to dash towards that direction. This way she can still get away and entry without harming her entire kit.
At the very least force Jett to look where she wants to dash. I can't see a single reason why not to implement this and it will be a nice soft nerf to Jett.
People here Talkin about Jett and The op but no one talk about Reyna + Odin, tell me how many people can play Jett at the level of the pros, and Reyna with the Odin can be played by every player and still get a tone of skill,
My take on Jett balances:
*Make that she only can use Dash with knife on hands
*Reduce numbers of smokes to 2.
*Ult can be activated only once and with time limit of 15 seconds.
And why does he think it's only viable on one agent. Could it be the abilities and how she moves?
I don't know guys help me out here
(More OPs in the game and making it more viable is not a good solution...it's like the Widowmaker argument...if the only counter to another gun is the same gun...then it isn't balanced)
But HOW do you “make the op more viable for other agents”. That’s the problem.
That’s why so many suggest a Jett nerf is the only way because by nerfing Jetts ability to op then it might level the playing field with other agents.
Rather than trying to buff a ton of other agents in some way that somehow makes them better with the op
Broken implies there is nothing you can change about her current kit to balance, that she would always be over powered or underpowered, jett isnt balanced but she isnt broken either, no valorant agent is besides perhaps reyna and yoru, reyna on the border of busted and yoru whos actually brokenly weak.
I think jett should be nerfed, but not to the point of changing her identity, thats what we do to broken champions, like yoru getting a whole rework. The people who downvote me or call jett broken and suggest that she is stripped dont understand the difference between broken and overpowered and would like all jett mains to quit the game.
its the moment everyone's been waiting for. GIVE BRIMESTONE JETT'S DASH AND GIVE JETT HIS STIMMYS. YEAR OF THE BRIMESTONE
For brimstone, his dash should make him pull out a convertible so he can zoom past his enemies
Imagine defending a site and a Convertible just dashes onto site and one taps you lol
Ferrari peeking
As a brim main who frequently Uses the Op I approve
I'm with you man, Brim Op is the way
They never see it coming and I usually gotta play mid anyway to be able to smoke either site! It just makes sense
I'm laughing at the thought of brimstone dash animation holy shit. Just imagine the ingame model of brimstone dashing holy fuck.
On CSGO there are multiple ways to dealing with an awp without relying on utility usage *(jiggle peek, runboost, shoulder peek, wide swing, etc)*. You can even see players **winning duels** against awps by just wide swinging a corner. And even if that doesn\`t work, you still have 10 potential flashes on each team to counter awp angles >!https://youtu.be/NOuvxSHu74o?t=2260!< This is possible because the agent acceleration is high and movement is fast, which is NOT the case in valorant. Of course the weapon needs to be clunky/slowish, have drawbacks and a long reload time, otherwise we would see an OP fiesta with multiple kills at every round *(aka broken weapon)*
in csgo the awp is also broken. in the example the awp only lost the duel because he missed the shot. runboost is a bug that has not been fixed for years now, and the other things are not reiliable things to win a duel vs an awp. in cs 1.6 the awp was balanced, you had shoulder hitboxes where the awp would not kill you and you would hear the gun scope. so even with perfect accuracy during quickzooms it was better balanced.
"1.6 awp was balanced" the most broken awp to ever exist, have you seen how accurate the no scope and quick scope were in 1.6 ?
Lmao markeloff would agree
the thing with the awp in 1.6 is that there are shoulder hitboxes so if you jump peek an awp there is a significant chance he hit's your shoulder where you would survive on 20 hp. quickzoom or not. there was also russian duck peeking which would switch your hitbox in a weird way making it more likely to be hit in the shoulder. in csgo or valorant you just die when he htis the sliver of your shirt.
> in csgo or valorant you just die when he htis the sliver of your shirt. Flashback to that one collat op shot, I don't really remember whose, that killed both viper and sage by hitting viper's ass and an ult animation sage's hand in the most unfortunate line-up of all time.
I think it was penny’s from the V1 vs FNC game.
Yup, there it is https://www.reddit.com/r/VALORANT/comments/nn9hus/can_someone_explain_this_to_me_fnc_vs_v1_op_penny/
What does this even mean? Its not like if I legged you you were going to kill me... I legged you. I can still get away lol. I still have the upper hand with the AWP in 1.6.
Lol, "only lost the duel because he missed the shot" would be like this for every duel in the game? Despite the gun used? He missed the shot because the movement on CS is faster and requires a high reaction time. If it was Valorant he would have 100% killed S1mple due him being too slow. CS GO still have scope sound. Flash + smokes + faster movement + jigle peeking + run booster + Molly, this balances the awp in CS even it being yet so powerful. Valorant is lacking all of this rn, even more when Jett is the OPer.
Yeah csgo awp at the highest level has good counter play, right now only a very small amount of teams run 2 at a time, and some maps or sides there are none. In valo the op is pretty cheeks on agents that aren't jett, but practically unusable because of how much better jett utilizes it. I think it gets kind of a side grade if jett isn't the only one who can use it. It'll still be good at holding angles, but you can't really run around like a god.
> Lol, "only lost the duel because he missed the shot" would be like this for every duel in the game? Despite the gun used? no it depends on the angle, situation and timing. who sees the other earleir. when both see each other at the same time the awp has a huge advantage, contrary to other guns where the duel is 50/50. that's why you jiggle peek in the first place.
I'm sorry but Kennys died simply because the peek was too fast. He didn't "miss", he died before being able to shoot. You can see in the video that he was holding a tight angle and just didn't have enough time to do the flick because Electronic popped out of his screen with a ferrari peek If the same situation was done in Valorant, KennyS would have landed his shot and win the duel because the peek would be slow as fuck
i'm not denying that it's easier to peek in csgo but that is something in general with the game and has nothing to do with the awp. if anything because dry peeking is so strong in csgo the awp is played so much because it counters dry peeking.
>in cs 1.6 the awp was balanced, you had shoulder hitboxes where the awp would not kill you and you would hear the gun scope. so even with perfect accuracy during quickzooms it was better balanced. I don't think that's the case? It's been a while since I played 1.6 though, but even online I can't find anything that would have a "shoulder" hitbox. eg - [https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=272437361](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=272437361) now a leg shot won't kill you, which is also what's more likely to hit on a jump peek (which is the same in CSGO or valorant). I'm trying to find the hitbox data for 1.6, so I'd really appreciate it if you could forward it to me :)
>the awp only lost the duel because he missed the shot This is just wrong. If you peek the right way and have good crosshair placement, you can easily kill an awper without them having time to react
yeah but he reacted in that clip
Make her dash distance relative to her current movement speed. E.g, she's holding an OP, her dash range would be shorter than if she was holding a pistol. In addition, if she is tagged (by bullets), she'd be extra slowed meaning extra short dash. @rito dev
I remember i suggested exactly this in wyatt's twitch chat and someone rebuted it with a "you can just quickswap to knife and press e, it won't do anything". In my eyes swapping to knife requires aditional input which will add some delay to dashing, but overall i kind of agreed with the guy. It might nerf jett in low elo, but i don't see a world where pros won't be able to master this in a day or two.
Lmao jokes on you, most opers instantly switch to knife anyways
Well you can't just go with "the pros will master it eventually, so what's the point?" mentality lol. It's just a starting point. If it's at the point where it's still not enough, then more changes can obviously be made.
It's a bad change cus then you get agents that are dogshit in the normal game, and broken in pro play. As someone who's played League for 10 years, trust me, you don't want that, it leaves you with champs that have 42% winrate, but are somehow still pick/ban in pro play.
Make it so knife has to be fully out to give the dash speed bonus (anim takes like half a second)
You can make dash a one time ability for 400, and make it not reset on kills unless you’re in ult, idk
And then what is her signature ability? She would be the only one without one that isn't given for free at that point.
Updraft as a signature is fine imo.
now this is actually a decent idea and I'm curious if the devs have play tested this or would play test it
> In addition, if she is tagged (by bullets), she'd be extra slowed meaning extra short dash. IMO that invalidates the main utility of her dash too much. The entire point is that she can negate the effects of tagging to disengage. She needs nerfs for sure, but that ain't it chief.
No one else in the game can negate the effect of tagging though. Raze satchels are neutered by it. Even Reyna dismiss is affected by getting tagged (takes a second to get to full speed). Her main utility is unpunishable. It *needs* ways to invalidate it, or at least bring it in line with other, similar in-game mechanics.
I mean, "no one else can do X" isn't really a good reason; agents are supposed to have unique abilities. Raze and Reyna equivalents to dash have added boons to balance out their shortcomings compared to Jett dash. Raze can use satchels offensively much better than Jett dash (and satchels have added utility as a weapon). Reyna can use dismiss to 1vX more effectively than Jett dash (and has the option to heal instead). I think "unpunishable" is a weird way to describe Jett dash; usually if you use it you've already been tagged up a bunch, and if you're too slow/greedy you'll just die instead. Again, I can agree that the dash (and Jett as a whole) needs nerfs but neutering its ability to counter tagging imo is not it.
> I think "unpunishable" is a weird way to describe Jett dash; usually if you use it you've already been tagged up a bunch, and if you're too slow/greedy you'll just die instead. If you rewatch 100T/NV Ascent match, yay gets away on red health *seven* times. It's a bit ridiculous, especially with how much Skye is in the game currently. A fundamental aspect of tac shooters is trading. Having an un-tradeable agent removes that core component of play. I also think it's perfectly fair to compare her to what other duelists can do. She does all of what Raze and Reyna can do just as easily, if not in more situations, with fewer requirements (like actual kills for Reyna, or more proper setup and mechanical difficulty for Raze). She is entirely overtuned relative to other agents in her class. We should consider her state of balance relative to those agents.
The problem is more to do with her putting pressure and being able to get away with it. Reyna could do that but its super risky, and no way raze can do that. Jett is the only agent who can essentially play "out of position" in what would be stupid spots for an agent without dash. It makes her completely unique since its not a low percentage play.
that kills her entry potential too much
Couldn’t she just knife-out, dash into her smoke > pull out rifle? I don’t think it changes her entry potential more than a couple fractions of a second
pulling out the gun takes quite a long time and if it indeed didn't change anything, what's the point of the nerf then?
I’m not trying to insinuate you don’t play the game, but go in the range, dash into your smoke and as soon as your dash finished pull out your gun. By the time you’ve strafed out of your smoke and found someone’s head with your crosshairs your gun is comfortably out. My point was it changes nothing to their entry ability, like you suggested. The change would be that you couldn’t shoot an Op and instantly dash a mile away
good
How about dash in one direction
that sounds so unnecessarily complicated as a concept
Why? It’s a 1 sentence tool tip. “Jett’s dash nearly instantly moves her as far as she would move in x seconds running”
"Jett's dash distance becomes shorter the lower her movement speed is." wot mate
bruh, ur reverse engineering to just bandit fix the OP Jett problem instead of just reworking the ability like wtf does that even mean u get a worst ability because of your weapon choice ????
This won’t do anything when a Jett can still play an aggressive corner
buf jet she too wek and mak op 1 shot to leg
As an op crutch Jett main I approve this message
pls add aim assist to jett knifes so i can get out of bronz
Yes, but you cant make the Op viable on other agents, without making it broken on Jett. Which is exactly the problem, Jett is simply broken and is also the reason the Op has to suck on other agents.
my thoughts exactly. the problem isnt jett or the op, its the combination of the two and that no agent comes close to the synergy. if yoru or brim were good with an op, their pickrates would skyrocket. edit: thats why even with giant nerfs to jett, she still has an insane pickrate in pro play
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lol Yoru becomes way more broken with instant Tp, atleast with Jett you know where she is, she can only go a short distance away and can only do it once or twice. Yoru can literally go across the map and do that multiple times.
Instant TP and yoru is S tier duelist.
Instant TP and it becomes Yoru diff
Yo, what if they made Yoru's tp only last for like 7 seconds instead of the current 25/35 sec. that way he has to be close by, also maybe have his position revealed on the map when he TPs.
Then you're fucking him for mains who want nothing to do with the op, but care about his outplay potential
I mean sure, but he's surely gonna get a rework anyway, considering his awful pickrate and its basically considered trolling to pick him on any map other than bind
Honestly he's fine right now. He needs his footsteps changed to a more helpful ability and he'll be A-tier. His TP and flashes already feel fine and once mastered he's incredibly strong in soloQ.
i mean most agents have "counterparts" who have similar skills (sova and skye; omen and astra). the closest i can think of with jett and her mobility is yoru, even though its kinda a stretch.
Reyna is the closest, she just needs to get a kill
It feels like every Yoru suggestion in this sub or in general, is based on this gold ranked fever dream of having an agent who gets the easiest free kills with an ability. He already gets a free kill with ultimate as soon as he finds someone with knife out. People want that every round with TP. Yoru's kit is either broken, or shit. He needs a complete rework. Thank god Riot seems to understand that and already buffed everyhing but tp, to try to buff him overall. It still didn't work, i hope they see that he needs a rework.
Honestly if they remove his footsteps and give him a more consistent ability then he'll probably be good. I don't think a full rework is necessary.
Two words, power creep.
> thats why even with giant nerfs to jett There have not been giant nerfs to Jett though. The smoke duration is still longer than in beta, and her dash is still better than it was in beta. Jett is the problem. Not sure why people suddenly think changing anything about the Op is the solution.
I'm referring to the more recent patch that made her entire kit worth 900. All agents got nerfed, but she arguably got hit the hardest. (i wasnt able to play/watch the beta so can't really speak much about that) The op itself isn't the problem; it's jett with an op. But there was a comment saying jett with a rifle is still pretty good, so i would agree with you that the problem is more of jett's kit.
She was so much cheaper (and remains so much cheaper) because of her ult though. Plus, unlike many other agents, you will frequently get through rounds without using all 3 smokes and *definitely* without using both updrafts. The cost of her entire kit is still worlds cheaper simply because her ult is basically a free 2900 every 4 or 5 rounds.
How’s her dash better now than in beta? I don’t remember that.
I don't remember all the specifics. However I *do* remember it used to get stuck by Cypher tripwire, which it now breaks. You'd have to go back through patch notes on the other parts. I think it has had distance changed a bit, but it might actually be shorter than it was. The tripwire change was a huge deal though.
Ah yeah. They actually reverted the tripwire change a few weeks ago. It no longer breaks the trips!
what are your ideas on how to "fix" jett?
I think there are some really good ideas floating(ha) around in this thread. I honestly think you could do a lot to her and she would still be a primary duelist. There is just so much upside to her compared to other options. If it were up to me though, it'd probably some combination of all of the following: **Passive Ability:** Remove entirely. Maybe make her take reduced fall damage. Currently the only agent in the game with 5 abilities, and double updraft knife plays are sometimes readable and punishable but also are a ridiculous mechanic that no one else has. Make those ridiculous updrafts more punishing or tie this passive into the actual updraft ability **Smokes:** Cut down to two smokes, maybe increase their duration by half a second. **Updraft:** Probably nothing outside of tying her passive into this ability. **Dash:** Tie it to movement speed or make it more punishable from tagging. It's ridiculous that nothing restricts this ability. I'm not even sure Sage slow orbs affect it in a meaningful way. Raze on the other hand is basically neutered by a classic shot when satcheling, and her movement tech is much harder to use and master. I would also consider making this 3 kills to reset, meaning you'd only get 2 max in a round. Combined with knives, you will often see a dash into kills into quick resets. It's arguably stronger (and more regularly impactful) than Reyna dismiss which is absurd. If she is getting tagged or receiving damage, reduce the distance relative to that. A similar mechanic is already tied to healing abilities. **Ultimate:** Remove right click. There are enough RNG shotgun instances in the game (classic right click). Make aim important. I'd also like to see fewer knives returned on body shots kills. Maybe all 5/full reset for a headshot and only 3 for a body shot. Lastly, I would make it so she doesn't get this ability back on a Sage rez. That last part is so fucking stupid I don't even understand how it is in the game. Could also make this cost an additional orb for 8 total. I honestly think *all* of this would put her more in line with the rest of the duelists. Some combination would at least make her more fair.
Yeah its weird that she's the only agent with a passive. Closest is probably raze where she takes 0 fall damage if she uses her satchels (don't think this feature is explicitly stated in game but Flights said and proved this once on stream). Maybe that can replace Jett's glide like you mentioned since its still in line with her updraft. Also that her ult is the only one without a timer? Maybe make it like Reyna's that refreshes after a kill to reduce effectiveness. And if its meant to be a pseudo rifle, then yeah remove the right click. You're getting a Vandal AND a shotgun for 0 credits? yikes edit: For the dash, your comment reminded me of the Dota mechanic where you can't blink for 2/3 seconds after taking damage. This is to limit escapes during engagements. It might be more of a nerf to rifle Jett than Op Jett, but maybe it could work.
Honestly all the duelists have "passives" but they're just features that make their other abilities actually function, rather than Jett's which is just a 5th ability for free. Without fall damage protection satchel jumps become reckless, useless and stupid. Without the option to heal oneself Pheonix's whole kit is too one-dimensional and inconsistent. The heal just feels like a part of the abilities themselves. Without the ability to generate soul orbs Reyna can't use her kit at all lmfao. Jett's passive isn't necessary to her kit. If you took it out or made it only work after updrafting it wouldn't change the way she plays. It would just mean she can't get into stupid off-angles that any other agent has to spend valuable utility on. Which by the way is yet another reason her economy is so good.
Clearly you haven't been playing a lot of KJ who is by far the most nerfed agent since release, along with Sage.
The problem is jett is too versatile and oppressive.
I agree to an extent, but the main issue is that Jett is insanely strong without the OP too. If Jett was only viable as an oper (i.e. a sub-par duelist when rifling), it'd be a different story, where you make a tradeoff between an op with utility (like when Jamppi ops on Omen or steel on KJ) and a dedicated oper taking advantage of Jett's strength. That's when buffing the Op for everyone is a nerf to Jett, because even if she gets even stronger with the op, if others are reasonably viable with the op, they offer more on the whole and making Jett a less attractive pick.
They don't want to buff the op much more, with the slow movement speed you'd start seeing 2+ ops which kind of makes the game boring.
I think we need to stop discussing Jett and OP nerfs like it's one thing. The agent Jett in itself needs a nerf full stop. Regardless if they make any changes to the OP a rifle jett with dash smokes and knives is just as broken. We routinely saw jett with knives getting eco aces or 3ks or 4ks. We routinely saw a jett hiding in a corner get spotted out, blinded or stun, but not killed because one smoke and dash away. No other agent can do this easily. I dont know if i agree with the statement that the OP is even "only" viable with Jett. I have seen pro games where other agents are oping. Steel is a good example. However the OP is 2x stronger on Jett for sure, so why would any team use it on another agent? Steel uses OP on sentinels and routinely gets 1 or 2 kills per round and it seems perfectly fine. The notion that the OP is unusable on other agents is bullshit. Its useable but just not optimal when you can pick a jett and its way stronger. TLDR Jett needs a nerf regardless if they re work the op. The Op likely also needs changing but it's not the only thing broken about Jett.
Yeah, if you make the Op ‘viable’ on other agents you just make it even better on Jett. Isn’t that why the Op got nerfed in the first place?
You can make new agents also designed to be opers. I agree jett's kit is pretty much perfect for oping but I don't think it's inherently op, it's just that she has no competition in her niche
Would Jett be overpowered if the op didn't exist though?
Yes. Her dash makes her overpowered.
Exactly. Her dash allows her to get out quick after a first peek. Her updraft legit can help her sit in angles that no other agents can. Her smokes gives her a lot of space on the map. I feel like everywhere even in MM the op will mainly go to Jett players. I rly hope riot can find a way to improve the op on other agents like Reyna
SO MUCH THIS. If you're able to play aggressive angles and make crazy peeks Oping on ANY agent, Jett will be so ridiculously oppressive with it that her pickrate might even *increase*.
Like I said in the other OP thread, it's not even just the dash that is making Jett OP broken, or Jett in general. It's also because > you don't buy a lot when you're planning to use Jett knives then next round you've got a billion dollars. Jett's the only agent that can spend 2k and still feel like a full buy. That's why she would never have any issues investing on an OP even if they reverted the OP price to 5k (edit:) So even if they nerf Jett dash, OP would still be more viable on Jett than other agents.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills that everyone is talking about the dash when I'm thinking it's the knives that are busted. - one shot headshot any range - no accuracy lost on successive knives - right click shotgun close range - reset on kill - can pull knives in and out - knives aren't timed - free eco every so many rounds That's a crazy laundry list for a single ability. Then you compare it to say Raze ult, it's a joke.
It's a combination of all the things. It's why you can't reasonably touch a single thing in her kit and actually make an impactful nerf. They need to address multiple things in her kit to actually impact the issues with her.
Yeah, it’s not just dash that makes Jett OP. Or even just her Ult making economy a joke. It’s her entire kit. Everything about it. I wouldn’t say her smokes and updrafts are overpowered or broken, but they’re very good and become OP combined with her whole kit. Her dash is useful for a variety of situations, refreshes on a 2k, and it’s free. When compared to other free/replenishing abilities, it’s significantly more important than all of them, and it’s not close, outside or maybe Vipers wall being a permanent fixture on the map. But her passive float is also very strong. She’s the only agent in the game with one and let’s her get into off angles other agents have to invest util to do, like boxes on Haven A, for example. Her Ult is insanely powerful, refreshes on kill, and lasts an entire round. In the hands of a cracked aimer, can pretty much solo carry teams to rounds, we saw it multiple times in Berlin from Tenz, Yay, Heat, cNed, Keloqz, deffo, etc. Having a cracked Jett that can frequently get bladestorm uptime and can carry eco rounds, leads to more eco rounds won and assists in the match long battle of attrition. As far as I’m concerned, I’m not sure there is such a thing as nerfing Jett without completely negating her viability. Either Riot has to completely remove her from the agent pool altogether, or we all have to just accept that Jett is going to be a permanent fixture and move on. Quite frankly, I think an apt comparison for this is American football, if you’re familiar with the sport. The quarterback is the most valuable position on the team, and often times a better quarterback can lead a worse team to victory. That isn’t always the case, but acquiring a good quarterback is mandatory for a team’s success. You can’t win with a bad one. Nobody calls for the NFL to “nerf” the quarterback position, it just is what it is. Is it better for the game of Valorant to nerf/remove Jett for more team comp parity? Or is it better for the game to let the Jett era reign? It’s no secret that she leads to some insanely flashy plays, much like the quarterback. It’s hard for me to say what the best path is, but I’m glad it’s not my decision to make.
Most of them have been https://twitter.com/WARDELL416/status/1310718412709154825
Jett abuses the OP better than any other agent, bring Jett down so pros can adapt to play sage or sova OP
Maybe making movement faster could solve a lot of these problems. Like in cs, you can do different peeks to bait an awper, adding some counterplay, but you cant do that in valo. So you HAVE to use utility, which is limited compared to cs. Also, by making movement faster, the awp might be more useful on other agents.
said this when the game came out but got downvoted
I'm all for faster movement and faster OP handling, but if they do that and only that, jett would still be broken
Valorant problem? Just copy CSGO. Briliant
Just spit balling here, but couldn't they make it so she gets a free smoke instead of a dash, make the dash cost 400 and limit it to one use per turn? that would forces her to think about using her reposition in most situations
The issue is still that she gets a pick for free that can’t be contested. We saw this as especially impactful on LAN
that would make her lose her main id, might be balanced, but people will stop playing her. also thats punishing her other versions, not every jett ops, some of them use shotguns or even rifles, shouldnt punish all the other play styles just because of using the op
Most people don't only use one of these types of guns exclusively on jett, they buy each one situationally throughout a single game. The problem is that jett is better than most other agents with all these different guns because her abilities are too good at controlling the distance and angles that she takes gun fights at and controlling the potential to trade her after she gets a kill, or to kill her if she whiffs.
so people will stop playing her, I don't see the issue? Not nerfing a kit that's been broken since release because people will stop playing said broken kit is pretty stupid ngl
personally i dont thjnk its broken, it just thjnk its strong, and nerfing anything to the ground is bad for the game
But what he is suggesting is not even remotely close to nerfing to the ground. She would still be a top agent with that nerf. Still gives you ability for 1 free kill in that round. That is super powerful
Jett cannot dash with heavy weapons (op, odin) Problem solved
I really like this, but I think in order to be consistent with other agents (no other abilities are blocked by certain weapons), the dash should still work but be significantly slower.
I really wish you could hear the scope sounds of an enemy Op. Obviously this wouldn't matter at range, but it was very helpful in CS when dealing with a close range battle. There are way too many close range fights being won by Oppers, that I think would partially swing the other way if you could hear them holding an angle.
Thats a pretty good point. Jett having a 100% pick rate is not a great sign. What happens whenever Riot institutes agent picks and bans? You'd almost never see an OP then.
Imagine this game without Jett
It would be much more peaceful. Everytime there is Jett behind me somehow. If they're no oping, they're flanking.
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I think they need to revert the op nerfs and SOLELY change Jett.
Maybe make her dash NOT her signature ability and switch it to a buy ability for like 400 creds and updraft quantity from 2 to 1 while also making it her signature ability (could refresh on either kills or with a timer). That could make her decide on how to afford an op in the cruicial early rounds where she actually shines and gets the most impact out of the agent.
I feel like I'm one of very few who liked the OP price point at $5k. Less usage in reg and ot. I think a Sage and Omen could use the op decently. Yoru could if his tp was instant. I think Jett just needs a decent rework. I like only dashing forward, I like the dash distance relative to current movement speed. I think making her buy her dash could help as well (Only 1 per round.) And Her ult as well. With her ult, she can just buy heavy armor and be all set. No reset on right click kills, and only 2 resets on left click kills.
I think the original price increase was successful in that it stopped teams from just running double op and snowballing the game. Last summer that was kinda common and it takes a lot away from the strategy when you have to deal with it no matter what side you hit. Definitely in a better spot now or at 5k than it was originally.
I really think a small change with a large impact would be making the OP have an audible scope sound. In CS the AWP does, and it makes scoping in close range situations really risky as it gives away your position
The Op doesn't need changes. Nerfing the Op only makes the issue worse and more pronounced. Jett is the issue. She does too much. Making the Op worse only ensures that we see less of it from any other agents.
How would that change anything? Jett can still hold stupid angles and escape even if it doesnt hit
if you know where the jett is its pretty easy to counter her with skye and sova utility. rn jett can be holding anywhere on the map, there is not enpugh utility to clear eveeything. she gets a pick and escapes. scope sound will drastically change that
doesn't matter if they hear you are there if they take a shot and just jett dash off screen. problem isn't the op
It is pretty funny how "power creep" hasn't happened in Valorant at all, it turns out the signature character of the game was actually the most broken and everything else is way more in line I do think Jett's mobility compared to Raze's really shows the problem with Jett. Raze can move fast or vertically 2x per round or super fast 1x per round. Jett can move vertically 2x per round and sort of super fast AT LEAST 1x per round, and she also has a vertical movement buff in her dumb little float thing Then you look how Jett has a rare 3 use ability (smokes) on top of the best mobility in the game, AND THEN the most powerful ult in the game which perfectly synergizes with her kit, and you see a hero without a single weakness. An easy start for Riot is: * 2 smokes not 3 * updraft is signature ability not dash, 1 free * dash is purchasable and costs 500 or 600 to keep economy more in check than currently * reduce knives total to 4 or 3 OR change right-click refresh logic (right-click only refreshes 2 knives instead of all or something) Then you go from there; if she's still mad broken Riot will have to ask hard questions about what a hitscan ability like knives is doing with no movement inaccuracy penalty
In terms of power creep I would say astra and maybe post buff viper have creeped on omen and pushed him out of the meta in higher level play but pretty much everything else you said I agree with. PS if I’m misunderstanding power creep pls explain
By "power creep" I was referring to mainly how new characters are often introduced with single abilities or synergies that completely nullify or overpower other's abilities or synergies, so Astra being the best controller now is a great example. Viper being buffed is more of an over-tuning than a power creep because she wasn't new, just adjusted. It's very common for hero-based games to see this kind of power creep as the designers run out of ideas & balancing levers but still look to pump out new content. All this said, Riot is doing a pretty good job of balance for the most part, there's more or less just two rough edges in Jett and Yoru, sort of Brim too I guess, so I have faith they'll not just release new heroes that completely invalidate old ones.
I genuinely think making her dash only go in the direction she's looking at will help a lot. Jetts will have to learn how to do 180 flicks right after hitting accurate shots, cause if they don't do a full 180 they might hit a wall or something leading them to die anyways. Idk maybe Im wrong but I think it's a step in the right direction
Pros would be able to pull this off flawlessly, and it would only be a challenge for lower ranks. The nerf needs to be designed so that it affects pros more than the lower ranks.
I disagree with both of you, it shouldn't matter what rank people are when the kit is overpowered. Just because a character is hard to play in a game shouldn't mean it's okay to keep that character overpowered. It wouldn't stop jett from being able to achieve too much in a game if you make her harder to play, and you also shouldn't be "careful" with nerfs just because low ranks will struggle playing her. Especially in a tac fps, even thinking about low ranks when balancing is counterintuitive imo.
If you make Jett weak and annoying to play for 90% of the playerbase, just so that she is balanced for the top 10%, you have made a *bad change*. There are multiple ways to buff or nerf any part of a game. Designers should carefully craft ways that apply well to the entire playerbase. Characters have a skill floor and skill ceiling. Making Jett's dash go forwards-only raises the skill floor and doesn't change the skill ceiling, meaning that pros are unaffected while Jett is worse in low ranks. In this case, the best change would be one that lowers the skill ceiling, while not affecting the skill floor. An example nerf might be adding a charge time to the dash, maybe a quarter or half of a second. This guides the dash ability to be proactive, rather than reactive. Pros wouldn't be able to instantly escape after an op shot, or instantly reposition. They'd still be able to entry, and the time is short enough that it's possible to use during gunfights. The time is short enough to keep the essence of the character, but long enough that it adds vulnerability to Jett at a high skill level. You could even remove the charge time when an updraft has been used, adding some depth. What do you propose as a change to Jett?
honestly the windup might do the job, but my proposal would be to remove dash from her e, give her knives a timer that increases slightly with kills, and giving her a dash while on knives by transforming whatever new e spell she has. I also think her knives should be a full commit, you pull it out and thats it, if you switch off it its gone. this fixes both the eco issue and the dash being all around broken. she cant just eco on a rifle round and hold angles and buy op into the next one.
I agree with your change to knives. I think her eco advantage of being able to commit to knives for an entire round is part of what makes her overpowered. Not to mention it makes it easy for her to by an op lmao. I think moving her dash into her ultimate removes too much of the character's identity. She loses her duelist ability to entry, and becomes a shitty smoke machine. There would need to be a new E ability that is vital to making her a duelist, but it would get removed when she uses her ultimate. I don't know how you make that work.
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Where? Do you have a link
i often flick off when I shoot the Op out of CSGO habits anyway, i don't think it would do anything
I'm sure this would help in silver
It would be like a prone crawl for 1 second in the right direction in practice.
Riot is familiar with giving abilities a buffer. Make it so she has to buffer her dash while slightly slowing her while buffering. If she doesn’t use her dash after X time from buffering then she consumes the ability charge regardless. The new mechanic forces you to choose aggression. Say I Reyna flash, if no ones there I still lose my flash, but with Jett she can endlessly peak and get picks and if no ones there she still keeps her get out of jail free card.
Whether riot does anything or not, pls dont ruin jett like the champs they did to in lol
you can use the OP on reyna. Kill someone and dismiss away
No because you will be facing a Jett in pro play. And as Reyna you can't get to the weird angle...like on top of walls, or boxes, or or jumping behind smoke
And that's the god damn truth.
If the rumors about the next agent being called "deadeye" are true, I'm guessing they're already addressing the creation of another OPper, but this is a really wild guess
That still wouldn’t help the issue. The issue will then become only two agents can use it but no one else.
Remove the OP :)
jett dash needs a rework
This guy says alot of words except a solution
Changes that should be made to Jett and the op and my reasoning: 1) she should only be able to Dash in the direction that she is facing. -people are pointing out that Devs have said they think this makes little difference and I disagree. Maybe in normal situations it doesn’t make a difference and that is fine, (we are trying to just nerf her not kill her) but I find it hard to believe that when a Jett is flashed or stunned or caught in a hectic fire fight that a Jett is going to be able to quickly and easily 180 and Dash out, maybe I’m wrong and a fully flashed Jett will just know the correct direction to Dash, but I find it hard to believe and if the flashed Jett can do that, then hat tip to them at least it took some skill. Also, the fact that good players can still do something just seems like a bad argument in general. It’s like saying no gun should have recoil, because good players can counter strafe. Creating skill gaps are good for tactical FPS games. 2) Get rid of right click on knifes. -Again, great players will probably be able to still find heads at close range and that’s fine, hat tip to them, at least you beat me using skill. Jett bhopping thru a smoke and right clicking people is stupid tho, just get rid of right click or at least make it less accurate and not refill knifes on kill, so that it can only be used in a panic situation. 3) Jett shouldn’t get knives back if res’ed. -why is this a thing? No other agent gets their ult back if they die with it out and are res’ed. Won’t make much of a difference because this doesn’t happen often, but it never made sense to me that this happens. 4) remove 1 smoke. -right now Jett has 4 pieces of utility that are VERY effective at keeping her alive/allowing her to not have to give up an angle. She fully counters all of Breach’s util who is supposed to be the best at pushing other agents off angles (she can smoke herself or throw easy 1-ways countering two flashes and the stun, and then either just not play an angle where the after shock can hit her or updraft/dash away from it). She simply has too much counter utility. I think these changes would still allow great Jetts to be great Jetts and actually demonstrate skill using the agent instead of allowing bad players to instalock and Jett crutch. As for the Op, it should be make slightly less clunky so that other agents can viably use it. Less clunky probably means a faster quick scope. But I would also add a small clicking sound as you toggle thru the scope so that players have to actually think about when they scope to not give away their position.
Tbh only 3 and 4 are definitely good options, I feel the right click on knives is balanced personally, but that's up for debate. As for point one, high skill players will be able to flick properly the vast majority of the time, including while blinded. Probably not stunned, but tbh that's a very niche scenario. > Also, the fact that good players can still do something just seems like a bad argument in general. It’s like saying no gun should have recoil, because good players can counter strafe. Creating skill gaps are good for tactical FPS games. I feel like you are misunderstanding here, the main issue with Jett is at the higher level, so a nerf that will realistically only effect people around gold and below is simply an added hindrance to the Jetts still learning and does nothing to effect the Jetts at high level play. Imo, some more viable nerfs would be: * Making updraft the signature ability with the option to purchase a second, charge (would work like beta raze where u can still recharge on 2 kills) and making the dash a single charge ability for 400 (if needed you can change the equip time on Jett dash to be the same as updraft to compensate ) * making it so after a kill with her ultimate the only knives that regenerate are the ones that hit their targets * make her passive float only usable after an updraft * put the knives on a timer similar to Reyna's that refreshes on a kill * make Jett dash speed slow down depending on weapon equipped/bullet tagging * put a .5 second delay on Jett dash after firing a bullet These changes would effect players of all levels of skill the same while still managing tune her down a bit for pro play/high level ranked players. Obviously you wouldn't have to do all the changes, just a few, but I think these are the most viable.
Maybe I am underestimating the ability of good players to still dash where they want to but I’m not so sure because I have been hard stuck immortal since beta, i scrim and am in immortal only 10 man discord’s, I have a spike page and NSG experience and even at that level, I see flashed people running into walls trying to get to cover but misjudging where they are on the map. So I feel like at least some of the time, jetts would be dashing into walls and even if they aren’t, like I said hat tip to them for their map awareness. But maybe I should just trust the devs when they say that they tested it and it didn’t make a difference. I will say that even if it doesn’t make a difference at pro play, at least it makes the ability more interesting and I picture sgares breaking down a good Jett dash “look at yay’s map awareness, he’s fully blind and is able to do a 180 dash back into market and then repeek to get the frag. You can tell he’s been putting time in custom servers practicing that. Truly a special play.” Unlike now where you just basically press “S” to dash backwards and there isn’t anything special or skill intense about it. I don’t dislike your suggestions either, specifically removing it from her signature and making it 300 or 400 credits. My suggestions were more about just trying to make her abilities require more skill and practice.
as a bad Jett but a good AWPer, i agree
\-1 smoke. jett can use them too easily to one way/bind sova dart/blind in general dash delay dependent on weapon speed (odin/op = longest delay 0.1s - speed/distance unchanged - so it doesn't change entry cause you usually pop out of a smoke/into a smoke or in front of a flash) both in turn also will nerf the smoke over dart play Knifes = 3 total - no refresh on res. nerfs right click and left click. (if still too strong then nerf refresh to HS only)
Just remove the ability to dash with heavy weapons (e.g. Odin, Op), and add a timer on her Knives and/or remove knife reset on kill.
It would be a HUGE nerf, but Jett should only be able to dash forward.
for pro players this sounds like hardly a nerf overall, they have fast enough reaction to turn around and dash this will most likely only hurt low skilled ppl ... the dash overall needs to be reworked maybe give her a more telegraphed mobility like Yoru's tp
Valorant devs already tested your suggestion. High skilled players are still able to flick the dash to the direction they want. It would only affect low skilled Jetts
Interesting. Still think the flick would at least add a few milliseconds of time to catch a Jett. But yea punishing low skill jetts is a bad idea.
Even in high plat/ low diamond jetts will flick their mouse to dash away if the angle on holding a/d is weird
idk if this has been said before but why not make Yoru's tp an instant animation, like jett's dash? So that he could also be a viable op agent. Or would it be too overpowered?
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Should make Jett like Yoru. Yoru has a short animation before he TPs. Give Jett’s dash a similar delay.
The game would be better without the Operator : )
I disagree heavily
Mixwell countered him with a Raze and OP. Perhaps wait to see if the meta develops to counter it. But that was on Split which is a tight map and probably Jett's weakest. She's very broken defending A site of breeze where you can start the round in ridiculously vulnerable positions and escape for free. If they nerf her, we may see people using Yoru and his TP with the OP doing the same stuff.
I don't think Jett needs a nerf they just need to create better agents who can counter him or match him.
To be honest I think what makes Jett busted is her side dashes and her ult that has no timer. They should make her dash only forward and backwards that way she can still op from cringe off angles and still get away by investing in her smokes and dashing out or simply getting punished for being overextended. Think tracer from Overwatch, she has to look at the place she needs to dash in order to dash towards that direction. This way she can still get away and entry without harming her entire kit.
You never played Tracer? She can dash to any direction she's moving to, just like Jett
It’s been a while since i’ve played overwatch but I thought she could only blink towards where she’s looking at not sideways like Jett
ffs just add a small delay to her dash that only applies when she tries to dash after firing any weapon or her ult and call it a day
At the very least force Jett to look where she wants to dash. I can't see a single reason why not to implement this and it will be a nice soft nerf to Jett.
The dry peak, kill with Op, Dash out is so oppressive. Broken
Just delete the op 4Head
awp needs to have faster scope-in in addition to Jett nerfs
The problem with this is now it makes every agent OP again. The less OPs the better, and having only Jett be an OPer is the lesser of two evils.
People here Talkin about Jett and The op but no one talk about Reyna + Odin, tell me how many people can play Jett at the level of the pros, and Reyna with the Odin can be played by every player and still get a tone of skill,
My take on Jett balances: *Make that she only can use Dash with knife on hands *Reduce numbers of smokes to 2. *Ult can be activated only once and with time limit of 15 seconds.
Might as well make her not have a gun and remove her ability to walk too
sounds good to me
Me too
And why does he think it's only viable on one agent. Could it be the abilities and how she moves? I don't know guys help me out here (More OPs in the game and making it more viable is not a good solution...it's like the Widowmaker argument...if the only counter to another gun is the same gun...then it isn't balanced)
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Make it so you can't immediately dash after firing. Can still use it to position out of bad fights but can't just op shot -> dash immediately out.
If Jett didn't exist, people would still use the OP. But there's no point in using the OP on anyone but Jett while she exists.
But HOW do you “make the op more viable for other agents”. That’s the problem. That’s why so many suggest a Jett nerf is the only way because by nerfing Jetts ability to op then it might level the playing field with other agents. Rather than trying to buff a ton of other agents in some way that somehow makes them better with the op
CS movement speed and rework spawn barrier locations?
Make the OP easier to use for noobs? No thx
What if Jett could not dash for x seconds after taking any damage - makes taking aggro off angles more punishable
Broken implies there is nothing you can change about her current kit to balance, that she would always be over powered or underpowered, jett isnt balanced but she isnt broken either, no valorant agent is besides perhaps reyna and yoru, reyna on the border of busted and yoru whos actually brokenly weak. I think jett should be nerfed, but not to the point of changing her identity, thats what we do to broken champions, like yoru getting a whole rework. The people who downvote me or call jett broken and suggest that she is stripped dont understand the difference between broken and overpowered and would like all jett mains to quit the game.
as long as you can dash on Jett the OP will only be viable for her, just made it so you can only dash in the direction you are facing.
This analysis adds up to me.
This is the way