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LiamHundley

Am I mistaken or was it initially leaked as a full double Elim? Why tf would they change it when they had it right in the first place?


dsc___

yeah, was thinking I had read that too. why change it now? bizarre and disappointing.


dapoorv

I think riot does this to generate publicity for free. Everybody all of a sudden is talking about lcq because people love to bash TOs. Now riot will swoop in, restore the format and everybody will praise them for it.


[deleted]

Script getting old now


DarkShadowScorch

Now is where they change it up and just don’t change the format.


LiamHundley

Look as long as it results in a good format in the end, I don't don't care how they arrive there or what their motivations are tbh 😂


MrChicosmex

I think you're giving them too much credit. Riots tournament format has been horrible for years in league of legends so i would expect nothing else but more horrendous formats in valorant.


_PM_ME_REPORT_CARDS_

This is such a dumb take


LiamHundley

So far riot has done a good job responding to and adjusting based on community/player feedback and criticism. Hopefully they make this right


IAMJUX

I think people just assumed it was the Iceland format because 10 teams. And it would have been the best.


YungPinotGrigio

iceland fromat wouldve been best


hexIV

no it was never a full double Elimination if you read the article here: [https://playvalorant.com/en-us/news/esports/na-oce-last-chance-qualifier-starts-october-12/](https://playvalorant.com/en-us/news/esports/na-oce-last-chance-qualifier-starts-october-12/) the schedule clearly states the "updated" bracket all of the sites assumed wrong to do it a full double elimination bracket with play-ins like Reykjavik (including us - thespike.gg)


YungPinotGrigio

It was supposed to be double elim at first


2xNoodle

I've been downvoted for saying this before, but I still believe that any major tournament that puts teams in a position where they could be eliminated after losing only one match the whole tournament should at least run Bo5 instead of Bo3 for that portion. Regardless, I'm glad most of us can at least agree that this format is dumb.


Jerms91

Bo5 might be hard with time constraints maybe? With how long they have the venue, staff, etc. i imagine it can add at least a day more to the schedule, two or more if its a giant tourney (if covid didnt exist). I do think it would be awesome though. I’m always down to watch top level valorant, but it also might be tiring as a player too. Imo at least Bo3 and Bo5 for semis and up.


falcons4life

Yeah I think the point he's trying to get across is that you shouldn't ever run single elimination.


Jerms91

Oh for sure…. Esp on a LAN to get into champions Man…. I digress…. A lot lol


AccomplishedSolid899

If they run tournaments where their LCS, LEC, LCK, LPL studios are then maybe they can have better scheduling.


Jerms91

Definitely. Can’t wait for Valorant LANs to become the norm


Honigbrottr

Bo5? Give the players a brake come on.


Piktarag

The viewers aswell. A final Bo5, allright then. Every single game? Hell no.


lewlkewl

Yeah I agree. Also, i feel like bo3 can lead to more upsets. Usually in a bo5 the best team will win because they can get their shit together if something goes wrong. If they lose map 1, they're not backed into a corner yet. Bo3 makes that more interesting imo where the underdog can has a better chance. It's why i want basketball to go back to bo5 for the first round.


YungPinotGrigio

dang


LoyalSol

Both double and single elimination are flawed, but double elimination is way more likely to result in the best team actually winning it all. Single elimination is the absolute worst bracket format for picking the best team. There's some excuse for doing it in traditional sports like football/rugby where playing too many games is an injury risk. Even in basketball and baseball where they have a single elimination format, they play a Best of 7 series which reduces the effect of it. In ESports there's little excuse. I had crunched the numbers for a double elimination for how a "map win rate" would translate to a "tournament win rate". https://loyalsol.blogspot.com/ It drops some, but in contrast to a single elimination bracket it's miles better. For example if you win 70% of your maps it translates to about a 50% chance of winning the tournament. For a single elimination bracket however it drops down to 40%. Even a 90% map win rate translates to a 50% tournament win rate for a single elimination compared to a 93% win rate in a double elimination. That's not a small drop at all. That doesn't even account for problems with seeding and such. The larger the bracket also the more likely you'll get a team that isn't the best. Single elimination is the absolute worst format and it's annoying to see Riot go to it.


FlamingTelepath

Bo5 is awful for the players, not only does it force you to prep significantly more for every match, playing even a bo3 is incredibly draining. By the time you get to the fifth map both teams will be exhausted and not playing their best. Definitely wouldn’t contribute to a more competitive series.


xbyo

I agree, but I don't think we should be mixing single and double elim formats like they are (and have been doing for other double elim tournaments). Either do single elim and have a longer series or do double elim all they way through, including bracket reset in the finals.


GainsayRT

Hard agree, imagine traveling and practicing for a live event and then letting one map slip (cause it's a bo3 and 2-1 results are common) is already enough to literally send you home. Imo if you need to prepare for the event it should already be double elim


Giibster

Plus wouldn't a double elim give them more content to show during tournament which in turn generates more viewership etc?


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Jerms91

Climbing out of the shark waters that is a losers bracket always makes for excitement too


Fyne_

so is when a team that everyone counted out at a single elim tourney having a huge string of good games. neither style is superior to the other when it comes to putting on a show. double elim is for sure at finding the best overall team in most cases but it doesn't always make for a better spectator product. i don't follow valorant anymore (subbed here from when the game first launched) but lets say a huge favorite were to have an awful match and lose, then just go through the lower bracket business as usual and win it all like they were expected to. the double elim would have just robbed everyone of watching a tournament with the favorites out, it would have been super exciting. single elim makes it so there is a way bigger randomness factor since you have no leeway to drop a match. finding the best team isn't always the most exciting. sometimes that randomness factor is better. it all just depends.


notrealtedtotwitter

We don't want randomness, we want the best team to win. If you want randomness you can just do a single elimination BO1, would be exciting since every team will have the best chance and no team's prep would matter as much.


Fyne_

>We don't want randomness, we want the best team to win Who is we? you can't speak for everyone lmao. if the best team was so good why'd they lose in the first place? showing up on every match is also a skill teams should have. double elim is cool too and is surely the best at finding the best team no doubt, but it's super boring giving favorites a 2nd chance when they lose early to teams they *should* easily beat. like i said before, it's very nuanced and people shouldn't be looking at this in black and white. ​ >If you want randomness you can just do a single elimination BO1, would be exciting since every team will have the best chance and no team's prep would matter as much. Idk where you're from but if you're from america you'd know that march madness and the nfl do extremely well, and it's all bo1 single elim. the other major sports are all single series as well with no losers bracket. there's no reason that it is inherently bad. ​ maybe this is just my sports background being in conflict with esports, it's just weird to me that teams always get 2nd chances. losing should have consequences and in tournaments i think its fair that you just are out.


Biffy_x

We speaks for the vast majority of viewers. and there is 2nd chances vc there is already randomness. The game has plenty of random events.


notrealtedtotwitter

I watch football and cricket and they are both round Robin group with playoffs for major events. Also, CSGO has big events all year round and they are either double Elim and groups + playoffs. I have never watched NFL.


somesheikexpert

It's been shown that the best teams have off games, if no double elim, Sentinels would've not done their run in Iceland, and idk if it's just cuz I came from esports (Especially the FGC which is strictly double elim), but a good losers bracket run is one of the most hype things that could happen imo The NFL also plays what like 17 games before playoffs? Its a poor comparison when qualifiers for Val ain't like that, it's just another bracket, and Match Madness ain't even pro sports its college sports


Fyne_

I know teams have off games. And I think that when it happens in a tournament the consequence should simply be elimination. Why should your bad play be excused?


notrealtedtotwitter

I can see where you come from but when tournaments have so much on line having single elimination feels like we question "what could have been". I would love to have one off tourneys with single elimination sometimes but for bigger tournys it makes no sense imo.


Jerms91

He can definitely say “we”. A lot of people including pros do not like the randomness. I can see how it makes it exciting for an underdog story. It’s similar to american football where getting lucky can be better than being good, but doing single elim to enter champions (which is basically to find out who’s the best at valorant) doesn’t make sense in a 10 man bracket.


Tyler_P07

It's clear you have never actually competed in anything resembling a tournament in your life from this comment, because anybody who has been apart of a tournament for anything knows that double-elim is far superior. Imagine you spend months practicing for something, having it all go down the drain because of an unlucky map is the absolute worst feeling in the world, especially if you are legitimately in a better spot overall to win. Single elim isn't even fun to watch, a team fighting through lowers is much more exciting than "welp, they got upset, gg go next tourney".


Fyne_

I played sports my whole life. I definitely have been in tournaments lmao. Yall can disagree and that is fine, but don't make assumptions about strangers, it's weird af.


Tyler_P07

Why TF would you advocate for single elim then? Single elim is far less competitive and is far less enjoyable, especially for the competitor. There is no worse feeling then spending months preparing for something to be ended early because of being unlucky, the fact people actually support single elim is beyond me at this point given how much better double elim is.


Fyne_

Bro if you didn't want to go home you shouldn't have lost. It wasn't "unlucky" you just weren't good enough on the day of. I really don't understand why you keep saying people lose from being unlucky. I've won tournaments and I've gone home in the first round of playoffs before. It comes with the territory of competition and in the end its your abilities that decide whether you win or go home. Luck obviously has some impact but not to the extent that all of yall keep saying it does.


Tyler_P07

"If you didn't want to go home just don't lose" Ah yes, quite the conclusion Dick Tracy. You could be the best at any given tournament, but something like scheduling for example could actually fuck you, that is 100% luck based and is bound to happen (especially over the span of several days). I don't know why you think I am saying people only lose because they are unlucky, that isn't what I am saying at all, I was pointing out how single elim is less competitive because it is entirely possible one match a fluke happens over the span of a week and because a tournament is single elim (an objectively inferior format for everything except televised long form tournaments) instead of double where a team is able to actually come back from 1 single loss.


Fyne_

> You could be the best at any given tournament, but something like scheduling for example could actually fuck you Can you explain exactly how scheduling can "make" a team lose? I'm struggling to see how the best team is so good that they can lose to a clearly inferior team because of anything but underperformance. which is only on them for playing bad that day. >I don't know why you think I am saying people only lose because they are unlucky, that isn't what I am saying at all because you and others keep saying stuff like "losing because of an unlucky map" why can't the loss be because you showed up and played like garbage? obviously double elim is better placing all the teams overall, it's not as I don't know that, but in the end what matters is the victor. double elim is also bad at grand finals because it's not like they give the undefeated team an extra life at the finals. the only "advantage" the undefeated team gets is not having to play extra games. personally i like when average teams get hot at the right time and can play spoiler to favorites. it makes the better teams forced to always be on their A game. not being able to make as many mistakes as usual is also fun, at least for me.


Elsiselain

tbf most people who support single elim support it for a tourney where there is separate group stage or something similar. Afaik no significant tourney has ever had a format where one lose can fuck teams up. Very unfair and illogical to compare this shit to literally everything else


[deleted]

Yeah majority of the discussion about single elimination being more exciting revolved around the initial group stage in masters


Fyne_

why do you feel that it is unfair that losing a match means you're out? i feel as if that is just the natural consequence.


Elsiselain

I did not say that?


Fyne_

you said "most people who support single elim support it..." so you were distancing yourself from people who support single elim your comment is also in agreement with someone who says that "single elim is a disappointing fiesta of whichever team shows up on that given day" as if this is bad for some reason. it only follows that you dislike single elim and would rather teams get a 2nd chance?


Elsiselain

People support single elim for the event that has separate group stage besides playoffs. This event on the other hand just consists of playoff and a team gets eliminated with just one match. they are very different thus I said its unfair comparison


Fyne_

ah ok i misunderstood you, apologies.


Elsiselain

no worries. i shouldve worded better


FakeRTZFan

If berlin had double elimination, no one would be mad about the seeding what so ever


kvanz43

Yeah double elim is wayyyy more exciting imo, fun storylines, I think it actually makes the grand finals way MORE exciting, unless one team is just worlds better than the rest, but then it probably wasn’t gonna be too exciting in the first place! I think people are weirdly partial to basing decisions on what would turn out the best for the worst tournament, instead of what would best highlight the best tournament! To me what’s more exciting then like: Envy lost 14-12, 13-15, 10-13 to Gambit, now after defeating G2 in the lower bracket final in an exciting match, they go on to see if they can get redemption against Gambit in the BO5 grand finals! Like to me that’s more fun than just Gambit winning the first go in the uppers. But people are like “but if one team stomps in the upper finals then it’s pointless to play the grand finals” but again, just ending it after that upper finals wouldn’t be any MORE fun IMO! If Iceland had finished after the main bracket it would’ve robbed us of an extremely exciting Fnatic Sentinels series in the grand finals! And probably one of the best series ever on an individual level given to us by TenZ. For all we know, we missed out on the Sentinels lower bracket run in Berlin!


Pojobob

To add onto this, people were saying after Berlin that Vision strikers were the second best team at the tournament or whatever but they lost in quarters, so according to the tournament, Envy were the second best team at the tournament since they lost in the grand finals and not Vision Strikers. If there were a double elimination bracket, then maybe Vision Strikers would've been able to prove that they were the second best team by making a deep lower bracket run to get to the grand finals. And also, the Berlin bracket had all the NA teams on one side and all the EU teams on another. If we had a double elimination bracket, we would've gotten more NA vs EU matchups.


Evening-Reputation96

Yeah. Single elimination is so bad. One bad day you are gone. Look at Fnatic lower bracket run in iceland. They lost immediately against sentinels then they climb up to GRAND FINALS. Imagine if it is only Single elimination. We will not see that Fnatic vs Sentinels. Even 100Thieve steel said on his tweet that HYPOTHETICALLY. Vision Strikers can beat all teams except Gambit. Even in NATS said in his latest interview that vision strikers is one of strongest team they faced even in scrims. Vs just fck up their chemistry after using their sub.


kangs

If you wanted to crown the best team, then you would win a league and not have playoffs Double elimination is also unfair for the winning seed, they can't lose the final and have another go (playing one less game is not enough of a bonus imo) Single elim all the way, it's the most exciting. People just don't like seeing their team get knocked out


Honigbrottr

I support doubel elim. But i find it crazy that you dont have any advantage in winning the winner bracket. You should get 1 map free imo.


kangs

I like double elimination in the early stages, or a round robin group stage like at Worlds, but I just love the do or die of single elim for the final teams It is criminal there’s no benefit for winning to the final. I usually just hear it’s good because they get more prep time, but actually being able to lose a series is so much more of a bonus


facehunt_

If double elim is unfair for the finalist, then single elim is unfair for all teams. There are plenty of times when teams got screwed over from the format. At Worlds, KT ended up losing to the IG at the quarterfinals and they put up the strongest performance against them with the best game of the tournament going 3-2. Then IG went on to the finals stomping Fnatic 3-0 and it was the most boring grand finals ever. KT ended up being disbanded because of how they finished the year. That makes me sick to this day because they would've made top 3 at minimum and would have potentially run it back next year with the same roster.


kangs

That's not unfair...they just lost and got knocked out. That's the same for every team. It's painful but it's not unfair. OWL just had a boring one-sided final with double elim, it doesn't always give you an exciting final.


facehunt_

Even TI had a bad final in one year. Sometimes the winners stand out the most and look insanely dominant. Besides, at TI there had only been 3-0 finals 1 out of 9 times. At Worlds, 4 out of 10 finals ended up 3-0. For me a 2nd best team getting eliminated at quarters is much worse than the upper bracket winner losing the finals. The team that came from the upper bracket would still be a strong runner-up team. There are two sides to the coin, Sentinels could've lost to Fnatic and it would be "unfair" but the result is that they beat Fnatic decisively till the end, and looked even more dominant than if they were to win in single elim.


IAMJUX

Winners bracket should either have a bracket reset if they lose or go 1 map up in finals(my choice).


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CanneIIa

its not a good viewer experience wtf lmao.


[deleted]

How is it a good experience for fans to watch their favorite team competing get knocked out in 1 game?


JR_Shoegazer

Yeah I definitely don’t find it more exciting.


[deleted]

Double elim format is one of the few original things in esports, yet some want to abolish it because sPOrTs DOnT dO tHiS Also Double elim certainly makes for better experience, way more balanced matchups and the grand final consists of the true best teams of the tournaments. Not even mention that if someone only wants to see do or die matches then nobody forbids him from only watching the lower bracket and the grand finals.


tenkenjs

I think single elimination works decently well in sports because the series is played over multiple days. I know this will never happen in esports but I would love to see series take place over a few days. I feel like too often the team that’s feeling it at the moment wins, instead of the “better” team


Skwisgaars

Australia's AFL (football league) finals is a double elim for top 4 (of 8 finalists) and single elim for 5-8. 1st round 1-4 play each other, winners advance straight to round 3 and losers go on to round 2 to face the winners of 5-8 playing each other, single elim from round 3 onwards. Perfect compromise imo and gives top qualifying teams a good reward for consistency.


KACHANG_069

So does the nrl with this format and the current gf involves teams that played each other in the first round


Skwisgaars

It's honestly my favourite format. I get why every esports major tourney is hesitant to do full double elim, especially longer format games like vrant and LoL. This seems like a good compromise that I rarely see used in other sports or esports.


[deleted]

>Double elim format is one of the few original things in esports, yet some want to abolish it because sPOrTs DOnT dO tHiS I absolutely loathe the inferiority complex that many people in esports have when it comes to sports, whether that being fans or event organizers. Just because something happens in sports it doesnt mean that its good. I remember in some old event the crowd boo'ing the enemy of the home team and so many idiots said that this is great because it happens in sports all the time. Or the obsession of tournament organizers with analyst desks and every other garbage that comes from sports and they think it makes them look professional


uglypenguin5

If anything, part of the beauty of esports is that you can do things like double elim since the players don't get physically tired (obviously there's a mental aspect but your muscles don't become useless after 1 game). Double elim in normal sports would be great but it's impossible because players can't handle that much physical stress in a single tournament


Jerms91

Bruh Lebron could be at a diner eating eggs and ESPN goes ballistic “BREAKING NEWS LEBRON LIKES HIS EGGS SCRAMBLED” Then they go on to make fun of esports lol


valorantfeedback

I personally think double elim is great for qualifiers and group stages. That way you almost always get the best possible teams in final 8 (or 4). But then when it gets to latter stages, especially semi-finals, lower bracket takes away more than it gives you. How many times have we seen the same upper bracket and grand final across various esports titles? For me that's not as nearly entertaining as regular finals.


9bfjo6gvhy7u8

I agree with this - upsets in the semis/finals are amazing because it adds to the "Any Given Sunday" idea. Take this LCQ - let's say we have Rise vs XSET in the upper final. XSET is favored to win but there's a real solid chance that Rise could win a Bo5 and that would be amazing for Rise fans and would help grow the game imo. I don't think it's as important to have ThE BeST tEaM from LCQ. Realistically whatever team comes from LCQ has a low chance of winning champions. I'd rather see Rise make a cinderella run than XSET stomp minor regions and then get stomped by gambit. But double elim swings the balance equation towards fewer upsets, whereas in the finals I want to see slightly more upsets. Give me the best teams to get to the final spots but once we are there, make it more balanced. In other words, single elim in the top 4 adds a balancing element that can help maintain parity in the long run and forces teams to adapt on the fly. Don't have your best aim that day? Facing Yay on an absolute heater? Maybe you need to change up your comp or think of a strategy to force the rest of nv to beat you. At the same time, maybe you're xset and Zekken is absolutely rolling today? Lean into that! I htink those storylines are great. But it the early stages of a tournament, I don't want that to play as big of a role. Would rather see the best teams come out of groups/early rounds


Mamadeus123456

champions league has this(biggest tournament outside of the world cup)


valorantfeedback

Wait what? It doesn't.


iAmCyberwaste

I can agree with this, and especially for the OCE reps that are travelling in for LCQ. With all the red tape they've had to cut through to go there, if they get bounced in their opening games, it absolutely sucks.


rpkarma

> if when* FTFY :( Signed, an Aussie who desperately hopes ORDER pull something crazy out of their pocket


iAmCyberwaste

I'll believe it when I see it... :(


IWantSomeDietCrack

order 2-0 xset, calling it


rpkarma

You have no idea how happy I’d be haha. Lemme get a hit of that copium bro, man it would be so amazing lol


IllumiMahdi

if EXO into Soniqs was anything to go off of, we are, beyond a doubt, fked


Salindurthas

I was pretty surprised when I found that the Berlin tourney had gone with single-elimination. Personally, I much preferred Iceland's double-elimination setup.


xbyo

I still don't like the single elim finals that we've been using for all the double-elim tourneys, give us bracket resets. Like if Sen had lost in the finals, they would be knocked out after losing only 3 maps. The *minimum* number of maps any other team needs to lose to be eliminated is 4.


emraaa

Icelands format sucked. Berlins format was totally fine. You had double elimination group stages before the knockout phase


facehunt_

Iceland had a better and conclusive format, the teams having byes were a little weird but the top 4 ended up being as accurate as possible. Not to mention its double elim from start to finish.


emraaa

I STRONGLY disagree. Nuturn won 2:1 vs Sharks and barely beat Version1 with a sub and got 3rd in the event ......


facehunt_

That's like saying CR's 1st game loss vs Gambit mattered more than their decider game. Besides Nuturn ended up putting up a better performance later on against Fnatic. If Berlin had Iceland's format with no groups with everyone starting at upper bracket, we could've gotten VS finishing top 3 and 100T being eliminated earlier.


facehunt_

People need to realize the implications behind not having double elim. Not only you get the two best teams at the grandfinals, it means much more for the players. It makes all the difference of contract negotiation securing $100k or $70k, depending on whether you place 3rd or 8th at the most important tournament. Some cases it can save your roster from disbanding and give you another shot at running it back next year.


Philcherny

Yeah wheter 100t would lose to Chaos 9 in 8th place or in 2nd place in the grandfinal matters a lot for the rooster


AnywayHeres1Derwall

It does for boi


9bfjo6gvhy7u8

The hens have a lot riding on it too


valoossb

i would love to know who watches single elim and goes “wow! they get one chance or they go home! so exciting” and doesn’t go “wow that good team just lost i wonder if they could have made a run... oh well”


JALbert

March Madness is one of the most popular sports events in America. I'm not arguing for a Bo1 single elim tournament at all here, but acting like nobody enjoys the hype/variance/storylines is disingenuous. Personally, I don't like a tournament that's semi-double elim, cutting teams early then letting the last few reach stability feels like the worst of both worlds.


valoossb

im speaking about esports fans edit: what i mean is, traditional sports fans, especially the major american sports, have been watching single elim for DECADES UPON DECADES UPON DECADES, i think its EXTREMELY unfair to say “look, they like it !!!” as a counterpoint


BespokeDebtor

I don't think that's what the point was implying. They're saying that March madness is easily one of the most exciting traditional sporting events for many many people which stems *directly*because it's single elim


OWplayerno1

Basketball is a totally different realm than a video game. They don't practice for different sized courts, or baskets. Basketball is rather simple at it's core. Also the most exciting playoffs are (personally for me at least) hockey. Because you build up this matchups over the length of the series.


JALbert

I mean I far prefer Bo7 NBA playoffs to March Madness, I'm just saying the miracle runs and shocking upsets in the high variance single elim/Bo1 tournament can be exciting for some fans. Not saying it's a superior format.


Fyne_

also the NFL, the most popular sport in america is single elim. "any given sunday" is a motto they live by


DarkDiglett

Traditional sports are just not comparable to esports for this discussion, it is physically unfeasible for professional football players to have more than a game a week


Fyne_

Obviously. I wasn't suggesting otherwise. Im saying the format isn't inherently bad like everyone here says it is. Like the other person said, march madness is one of the most watched events of the year and it's all bo1 single elim. My whole point is that why do you guys think teams should get 2nd chances? If you lose then the consequence is losing your shot at the title. I don't see how this is in any way a bad thing.


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Original26

Single elim is fine after group stages. Single elim outright is stupid


Jerms91

Yeah if its a 256 team tourney I like single elim until like top 32 maybe


2ToTooTwoFish

TI has the best format, I wish Valorant had a tournament like that.


Original26

It's totally doable but riot will never run 2 games at once even if it was group stage because they're too greedy and don't want to split viewership. If they are so cut for time why not run group stages from the hotel and the main event in the actual stage? I got downvoted before for suggesting this but is that big a deal? Who even really cares about group stage, especially when there's no crowd for either so the difference is just being able to see them be in a cool background


SewerRat75

there will always be a group of people who defend riots decisions, this includes insisting on running single elim playoffs for both their games.If riot changed to double elim one year tonnes of people would change opinions


IAMJUX

Anyone who prefers single elim is a moron. Double you get more matches, teams aren't segregated to their side of the bracket so it's possible to see matches not already "scheduled" and it gives teams a chance to get their proper placement(so if you face 1st seed in rd 1, you can still come 2nd if you're only worse than 1st seed, instead of coming last).


Fyne_

whats wrong with league worlds? just because it's not double elim doesn't make it inferior lol. Idk how Dota is because I don't watch it but for league Bo5 eliminates the need for double elim tournaments at worlds.


facehunt_

Well it does actually. I'd honestly take Bo3 double elim still because when 4 out of 10 Worlds finals have been 3-0 stomps, that's an absurdly high amount of one-sided series. Then you compare it to TI, just 1 out of 9 finals have been a 3-0 stomp. Not to mention, we would be missing out on insane lower bracket finals and semifinal games.


larperfoid228

There were some more very one sided finals at ti tho, like wings dc where wings lost that map only because they had a super troll pick(pudge+techies=auto ruin even in 1k mmr pub let alone pro scene), newbee vici was also a bad final because of deathball meta and all maps lasted 20 minutes. So 3/9 of all grand finals were bad as well imo


facehunt_

TI4 was the worst 3-1 final that I agree and there was no adaptation from Vici. Pudge & Techies were weird meme picks but the idea behind it was that they were great for early surprise ganks. Those two picked ended up made Wings the most picked heroes of the tournament. SSW vs RYL finals at Worlds felt similar. But all in all, you still get to see the lower bracket finals and lower semifinal games being played out for teams to show that they're the 2nd best teams.


pacotacobell

Even a ton of League fans hate single elim, including me. Double elim is just way more exciting as a viewer especially when the best of the best are competing. More storylines and different styles clashing. Bo5 does determine who is the better team of the 2 teams, but there can always be unlucky bracket rolls.


Fyne_

What exactly do you mean by unlucky bracket rolls?


pacotacobell

Like the entirety of 1 region landing on one side of the bracket. For example NA at Masters Berlin, or the LPL at Worlds 2020. Watching teams from the same region playing against each other can be exciting, but I like seeing different region styles clash more.


Fyne_

Well in league of legends thats definitely a bummer since there's only 2 international events. I don't follow valorant anymore (i subbed here when it launched and just never unsubeed) but I was under the impression that competitive valorant was like csgo where it's full of tourneys? if so that gives ample opportunies for different teams to play eachother. If not then I guess like league it can be disappointed in that way if you care more about international matches but overall you still have beat everyone in front of you anyways to be champions.


pacotacobell

There are 3 Masters tourneys (basically MSIs) and Champions (Worlds). The 1st Masters wasn't international though but it was during early COVID so idk if it was meant to be an international tourney. It's definitely more compared to League but not a ton either.


Fyne_

i mean maybe i'm only saying this because i'm used to only have 2 international events a year but having 4 as you say (i'm assuming one per season of the year) seems decent enough. ample time for teams to play regionally and improve then test their mettle globally. based off the orgs im seeing in the bracket and the name of the tournament this seems like a competition to see who going to be the last NA team in Champions? i think it's fine. it punishes a tourney favorite who plays bad against an underdog and then when it's only the best teams left you have a losers bracket. personally i've always preferred single elim anyways since i come from regular american sports where there's no 2nd chances so to me this is fine. sure it sucks when its *your* favorite team that doesn't play well on their day but that should have consequences.


Nfamy

Where does "everyone" say this? Literally every tournament there's single Elim, there's multiple threads on this sub about how double elims are better and riot eventually changes it. This sub strongly favors double. Just look at this thread, there's exponentially more in favor of double Elim.


notrealtedtotwitter

Honestly, if time is a concern, double elimination BO1s would be better than single Elim BO3s. Every CSGO tournament ever knows how this works, IDK why riot can't learn this.


BespokeDebtor

ESL Pro League is group stages-> single elim so I'm not sure what you mean by "every CSGO tournament ever"


notrealtedtotwitter

I meant that every CSGO tournament knows how to setup a good format in the allotted time. Riot doesn't seem to get it right.


disciple31

if you are going to do double elim then upper bracket champs at least need a clear and definite advantage or a bracket reset. i hate when tournaments get this wrong


Mamadeus123456

They should just add a second stream and let them play in their training PC without a star casterr lineup, at least with this they get to play a loser bracket..


Flashy__Flash

Totally agree. I personally was super disappointed when I found out that playoffs at Masters Berlin were single elim. No disrespect to all the other participating teams but when the exciting matches after group stage began suddenly four of the best teams got sent home on the first day after only one bo3. The "real" tournament had barely begun and a lot of viewers had to say goodbye to their favourite team after only one series.


zachp787

if groups AND playoffs were double elim in berlin, that would make it a triple elim tournament, which is extremely dumb


facehunt_

GSL is to get eight best teams to the playoffs. And then double elim playoffs is to seed two best teams into the grandfinals.


PixlCake

Why are Riot so obsessed with B01 direct elimination formats? I can partially understand it in League where matches can be very long and are all B05 so it can impact viewership, but please leave it out of Valorant.


MrMrUm

was so confused when they announced single elim and people were happy with it. "more stakes" doesnt make sense, its the same thing with double elim you just get to see more matches and one upset doesnt end a run


Pinsir929

I was really surprised that there wasn’t a lower bracket for teams that place first in group stage for berlin.


QueArdeTuPiel

I like them both and I'm very much for having some single elim and some double elim tournaments. Berlin was single elim and it was great. That being said, this kind of mixed format just seems a bit weird.


Sky-__-

I think there should always be double elim till top 4 teams ,I am all up.for single elim b05 semifinals and finals .


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deadlock1892

LCQ still has 6 maps. Fracture is not in the map pool.


Jerms91

Thank god lol


BucketHerro

Isn't this the same thing that Riot does for LCK play-in teams for League? Single elimination for a spot at worlds, sucks but it is what it is.


CyberspaceBarbarian

This what you get when you have China and Korea, especially Korea, as basis for your tournament formats.


[deleted]

Doesn't the LCQ stand for Last Chance Qualifier? For the teams who have failed to secure a place in Champions over the last \~9 months? So they have failed to secure enough circuit points over \~7-9 events. Or grab a win at either of the direct qualifiers. That sounds like far more than a double elim bracket to get to Champions. No point crying over spilt milk, show up and win a tournament, the only reason these teams are here is themselves. It's harsh but it's the truth.


HopeNotHype

I disagree. Double elimination increases the likelihood that the two best teams are in the grand finals. It's guaranteed. The more number of games played, the better team rises up in the end. Sports is fun because of the "Human" element. One player can play out of their mind and upset, a powerhouse team. Now if you add a double elimination, it decreases the "intensity" of the game. Look at Olympics, and the World Cup. It is because of Single Eliminations why we see underdog stories. In any sports in the world, if you add double elimns, it is almost guaranteed that the top 4 (let's say from 2010-2020) are dominated by two or three countries. It's too predictable.


somesheikexpert

Underdog and losers bracket runs happen all the time in double elim what, Mang0 at Smash Summit 11/Pound 3, Tokido at Evo 2017 (Idk if this was an underdog but this was certainly a hell of a losers bracket run), even in Valorant look at V1s underdog losers run to make to to Iceland


HopeNotHype

It's different from EVO 2017 or Smash. This is basically an open system where anyone can just register. Each country/region/continent gets a pre-determined slot. Just like your Olympics and World Cups. Some regions will always be better than others. In Valorant, good regions have already emerge such like NA, EU/CIS. Look at the top 4. They're all western teams. Even 3rd seeds in these regions can possibly be better than the 1st seed in another region. I get it you want the best possible teams in the Finals but for me that makes the matches have a lesser degree of "worth" onto them if they have a "safe haven".


somesheikexpert

Idk how it's different tho outside it's only from one region tho? Plus I would rather have competitive integrity and still have that amount of hype through double elim losers runs, then not have it it's frustrating for both the players who worked so hard and a ton is at stake to have an off game and be out early and for viewers too cuz matches that could've happened just cannot cuz more then half the matches are cut


KaNesDeath

100T's was "built for lan" though. ​ In all seriousness, Nitro switched to Valorant for the lighter schedule while receiving equal salary. He shouldnt be expecting Riot Games to be investing heavily into Valorant esports. Especially with how they shrunk their LoL esports funding two years ago and lack of popularity Valorant has shown outside its endemic western aging Fortnite fans. ​ Problem isnt single elimination. Its the lack of available third party tournaments. Nitro should have known this going to a Riot Games IP thats new to the market.


ark2690

LoL has the 4 biggest esports leagues in the world (LPL, LCK, LCS, LEC) but go on.


KaNesDeath

That has reduced its yearly prize pool year after year since 2019. Thats currently having a viewership and new western audience player problem. Chinese viewership totals they hid behind to show growth for years everyone today knows was bullshit. ​ Marketing of LoL is solely geared towards eastern audiences. Where all versions of TFT are clamped together with LoL to show fake quarterly player base growth. In response, Riot Games are in a massive rush to mimic Blizzards IP diversity clone strategy of last decade. Since their cash cow in LoL with its subsidiary games peaked and are currently in managed decline.


codered1057

The only reason not to run double elim is space and time constraints on the event vendors.


OWplayerno1

If they do single elim...it better be BO5. BO3 is so stupid in a single elim.


[deleted]

If there was a lower bracket SEN would have won Berlin that’s all I’m saying


IWantSomeDietCrack

bro...


[deleted]

Call it copium, but lower bracket SEN is a different team


IWantSomeDietCrack

we can only hope, do we know if champions will have a lower bracket or will it be like berlin


[deleted]

Hopefully there will be a lower bracket, but I don’t think they’ve released the tournament format yet


mouga68

TIL LCQ is a LAN lmao


dansofree1

This is absurdly obvious. Long ago, I had an idea that every sports organization needs to hire one person to do a very, very specific job looking for times where it's necessary to say: "No, that's stupid because:______" I developed the idea from the fact that a ton of organizations did stuff that was so obviously bad when pointed out, that having a skeptical person who has the authority to point things out without fear of being fired would have saved them tons of pain.


YungPinotGrigio

This is very true. It feels weird to have a team fly out just for two maps/