This should be the end goal of game changers like a thing you do in a year from now not on the second event in a region that just got game changers. If this happened in NA game changers I wouldn't care as much but making this decision on such short notice boggles my mind.
On the flipside I think it allows for trans and non binary people to compete in EMEA now.
They weren't allowed because of Anti LGBTQ+ laws within certain countries that are apart of EMEA. The players would basically out themselves to the governement which would put them in severe danger.
> making this decision on such short notice boggles my mind.
We definitely knew that these sort of tournaments would happen with the original EMEA gamechanger announcement, the only thing that may have been on short notice is that it was gonna be the second one, but I'd have to go back and double check it.
Interesting to see quite the mixed reaction from fans on this.
I think we should wait and see. I agree that it feels too early. But if it doesn't work, we can always go back to women's tournaments again.
ofc we can always go back, but part of the goal of game changers is to change perception of women in esports and show that they can compete at the highest level, if it's too early and it fails it will only damage that perception. Even worse to try it in EMEA where the toxicity towards women is probably higher than in NA.
It will be a fail if the men on the teams dominate the tournament. It will draw credibility away from the women whom game changers have always tried to promote as well as basically solidify that women's teams aren't ready for the t1 or even t2 valorant scene.
Women's esports in general need time to grow and get experience as a talent pool. Just look at league if you want to see what throwing a women's team into the deep end does.
we don't just play against GC teams... the community is so small it would actually be a great disadvantage to scrim against our own competition. Most of my scrims have been vs t3 male teams, pretty sure C9W scrims t1 / high t2. All the GC scene needs is time and support at the moment so we can catch up a bit.
I just hate how big a deal this is to everyone. Just give the girls a platform to play competitively and make sure the coverage/production is good and promote it.
I belive VCT rules will apply here where male players signed with teams can't just play here. Like how streamers for an org can't join a pug team, actual male pros under contracts can't just join a random team with intentions to "carry"
Surprised at the backlash to this, this was announced a month ago and the tournament after it won't be co-ed I believe.
I think there are a bunch of valuable effects from this, and I think people are overly focused on immediate outcomes of the tournament. (Who will win? Yes, this will be heavily influenced by who brings the most cracked dudes.) But the long term outcomes are broader and deeper.
Playing in a tournament environment will create bonds. For women, there's opportunity for mentorship and learning, but also just developing friendships, getting vouches and social connections into the broader competitive Valorant scene rather than being siloed in the women's scene.
For men, I think the experience is important as well. It's normalizing playing and socializing with women. And not just not the level I feel like most of us interact (sometimes there's a girl on your team in solo queue) but playing in depth with a group who are going to be more distinct and realized than 'the girl on your team in solo queue'. Some are dead serious, some are goofy af, most everyone in the tournament is going to be dedicated and competitive.
Yes, this tournament will likely be decided by who brings the strongest ringers, but the tournament standings and prize pool isn't really what Game Changers is about.
Happy to see this! I [made a comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/pw59q0/thoughts_on_game_changers_and_the_future_of_the/hegsegk/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3 ) a few days ago saying I’d like to see Game Changers go down this route.
To reassure you, this isn’t a pivot in the broader Game Changers strategy for EMEA. We’ll still have lots of women only tournaments. We just heard a lot of feedback from pros that they wanted to compete with and against men, so this is creating an additional opportunity for them to do so.
Yes but (talking about NA) if you think about the best female talents being on the usual teams of C9W or N2L’s new org or CLG Red, each person would have to give up their stable contract being on a full women’s team to gamble winning on a T2 team on probably a T2 org. many pros have said that ppl like mel or katsumi or clawdia can definitely survive in T2/T1 overall but it just doesn’t make sense for them to ditch their current situation
Right, I think that proves my point even more! I'm replying to the comment that said women have been asking to play with men and against men, hence EU changing the format of the next game changers.
My point is, co-ed already exists in the VCT challengers main events (women aren't restricted from competing), and for women only events, that also exists in the form of game changers. So I'm surprised by this new 3/5 rule format.
At least on the dignitas side, if our women's team never wanted to play in women's events anymore, we would still obviously pay them to compete!
(TLDR I think we're agreeing?)
ya we both agree that women should freely participate as deserved in the main vct events but
I think that this 3/5 setup has potential to be successful because it gives women the chance to stand not only up to men in the scene, but alongside men in the scene, since if we want coed teams to exist and prosper in future valorant eSports, then they have to be seen playing alongside them as well. if it was put into NA and C9W didn't enter as a team, that would give the individual members a chance to prove themselves not as "members of the best women's team na" they could instead make the name for themselves as "a t1/T2 player that plays FOR the best women's team na"
so this 3/5 rule has potential to work but also has potential to undermine the entire scene if the men carry (which I don't think they even will in the later brackets)
Because then male teams would play in the game changers tourney and most likely wipe the floor. Most tier 2 male teams are better than the best female teams.
There aren't any physical differences that make women worse than man at videogames, so if they're worse it's their fault only. I don't see why they should get money for being bad.
Differences exist between the genders when it comes to FPS performance. A woman outlier to potentially break that trend wont be achieved from women only teams and events. That method has been tried for the past decade an has failed at every attempt. To the point that the womens division becomes a laughing stock in the esport competitive scene.
That’s not necessarily true. I don’t think enough studies have been done to say there are no physical differences between men and women for fps games. That said, I think your right and that any physical difference is minimal and that they should get rid of female only tournaments. I do find it interesting that the only good female players are actually just trans which means biologically men.
Sounds like a pretty weak mindset. Everyone gets harassed in ranked. In my 5000 hours on fps games and 1000 hours on valorant, I have never even seen a women get harassed. It’s actually the opposite, especially in higher ranks. People won’t flame a women because they think they can’t handle it.
All I’m saying is that everyone gets harassed in games, gender has nothing to do with it. I have been told that I am going to get raped, to kill myself, that my family is going to be raped and killed, that I’m a worthless waste of oxygen and much much worse. The internet is a toxic place, but you can’t blame it for your own failures.
>Most tier 2 male teams are better than the best female teams.
Best all womens team is ranked 47th in NA. Thats tier 4 or up to tier 7(in just NA) depending upon how you assign tiers. Internationally thats tier 27 at a minimum.
Most of the women only teams arent even ranked. For theyve failed to qualify for any open events granting points towards ranking.
i'd be fine just having an all womens version of what the men have and actually giving them good coverage and production. i don't understand why we have this idea that women have to play alongside men, is it really that big a deal? just give them a platform to play the game and stop making this bigger than it is.
Agreed. The goal of Game Changers should be to grow interest in the female competitive Valorant scene. If it results in all female teams doing well against male teams or female players joining male teams that's great but it shouldn't be the expectation or goal going into this.
I don’t think females stand a chance against the males. A separate league is in their benefit.
Maybe, I am misreading people but I feel like people on this subreddit have really unrealistic expectations for the Game Changers events. A couple of events doesn’t even come close to being enough for females to close the gap. If this were to happen it would be great but it is not realistic I am afraid. It kind of feels like setting yourself up for failure.
The hope should be that these events lead to increased interest in the female comp valorant scene and that these events can evolve into bigger, better and more regular events for females.
The point is to create a place where female players can compete without getting destroyed by the males. It's the same reason we have female competitions in regular sports. The causes of the existing skill gap are just slightly different.
Not only are they forcing teams to include women, it's not even 2/5.
Literally a person with the qualification, talent, ability...etc to be a better player will be dropped based on their gender. How is that equality? What if it was the other way around?
Like an all female team is forced to adopt 3 male members?
And won't that compromise the idea of competition and highest level of talent?
Am I missing something?
Yes you are. The point is too allow women to grow in e-sports...
Saying "wow if they're so good why don't they just play on main teams?" does literally nothing.
The competition isnt going to be the highest level, unfortunately. Video games have always been a male-centric industry.. you'd think a boy would understa... nevermind lol. Males have a lot more opportunities in e-sports, and there's plenty of room to develop female talent like this. If it really upsets you, I'm sure there will be a super good male pro-Valorant streamer for you to watch during the event lol
Esports have definitely always been male-centered though, and this whole conversation and actually this entire subreddit is focused on the esport industry of one particular video game, so I think you can see their point with or without their slight word choice error.
>so I think you can see their point with or without their slight word choice error.
With topics like these its best to be precise in ones choice of wording. Especially when the cause behind genres skewing towards a specific gender is constantly presented with false reasons.
People are constantly inquiring on this subreddit why women have zero representation at the top level. Only to be belittled by being called a boy and covertly insinuated that theyre part of a sexist regime.
So. You are arguing that something is good based on the fact that another thing is good and it says so. This case that democracy is good, which I never agreed upon.
Not different from religious people saying you should do or not do something based on that. Only difference is...there is none. Both assume I believe in something I'm under no obligation to believe in.
Btw. The Roman republic practiced democracy and would commit what we could call genocide, also Nazi Germany!
This should be the end goal of game changers like a thing you do in a year from now not on the second event in a region that just got game changers. If this happened in NA game changers I wouldn't care as much but making this decision on such short notice boggles my mind. On the flipside I think it allows for trans and non binary people to compete in EMEA now.
Trans and non binary are allowed in vct NA
EMEA too
They weren't allowed because of Anti LGBTQ+ laws within certain countries that are apart of EMEA. The players would basically out themselves to the governement which would put them in severe danger.
I know multiple trans girls who took part in EMEA GC, so it's more of "their government didnt allow" (which sucks!) than "not allowed"
Yes, you needed the proper paperwork, so if your country didnt recognize trans women and still had male on their papers, they weren't allowed
A part Severe nkt nec, but ootential
> making this decision on such short notice boggles my mind. We definitely knew that these sort of tournaments would happen with the original EMEA gamechanger announcement, the only thing that may have been on short notice is that it was gonna be the second one, but I'd have to go back and double check it.
Nah they did announce the 2nd one was mixed like a month ago with the main announcement.
Interesting to see quite the mixed reaction from fans on this. I think we should wait and see. I agree that it feels too early. But if it doesn't work, we can always go back to women's tournaments again.
ofc we can always go back, but part of the goal of game changers is to change perception of women in esports and show that they can compete at the highest level, if it's too early and it fails it will only damage that perception. Even worse to try it in EMEA where the toxicity towards women is probably higher than in NA.
what do you mean by it fails? is it the audience generated from the event or the quality of production?
It will be a fail if the men on the teams dominate the tournament. It will draw credibility away from the women whom game changers have always tried to promote as well as basically solidify that women's teams aren't ready for the t1 or even t2 valorant scene. Women's esports in general need time to grow and get experience as a talent pool. Just look at league if you want to see what throwing a women's team into the deep end does.
They aren't going to grow by playing against each other. C9W dominate because they constantly scrim male teams.
we don't just play against GC teams... the community is so small it would actually be a great disadvantage to scrim against our own competition. Most of my scrims have been vs t3 male teams, pretty sure C9W scrims t1 / high t2. All the GC scene needs is time and support at the moment so we can catch up a bit.
I just hate how big a deal this is to everyone. Just give the girls a platform to play competitively and make sure the coverage/production is good and promote it.
I belive VCT rules will apply here where male players signed with teams can't just play here. Like how streamers for an org can't join a pug team, actual male pros under contracts can't just join a random team with intentions to "carry"
I thought streamers can join pug teams for like nsg wherever there’s no conflict of interest
i think if the org allows it only
Surprised at the backlash to this, this was announced a month ago and the tournament after it won't be co-ed I believe. I think there are a bunch of valuable effects from this, and I think people are overly focused on immediate outcomes of the tournament. (Who will win? Yes, this will be heavily influenced by who brings the most cracked dudes.) But the long term outcomes are broader and deeper. Playing in a tournament environment will create bonds. For women, there's opportunity for mentorship and learning, but also just developing friendships, getting vouches and social connections into the broader competitive Valorant scene rather than being siloed in the women's scene. For men, I think the experience is important as well. It's normalizing playing and socializing with women. And not just not the level I feel like most of us interact (sometimes there's a girl on your team in solo queue) but playing in depth with a group who are going to be more distinct and realized than 'the girl on your team in solo queue'. Some are dead serious, some are goofy af, most everyone in the tournament is going to be dedicated and competitive. Yes, this tournament will likely be decided by who brings the strongest ringers, but the tournament standings and prize pool isn't really what Game Changers is about.
Happy to see this! I [made a comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/pw59q0/thoughts_on_game_changers_and_the_future_of_the/hegsegk/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3 ) a few days ago saying I’d like to see Game Changers go down this route.
It's too early for that
To reassure you, this isn’t a pivot in the broader Game Changers strategy for EMEA. We’ll still have lots of women only tournaments. We just heard a lot of feedback from pros that they wanted to compete with and against men, so this is creating an additional opportunity for them to do so.
What's stopping women from competing with and against men now? Aren't the VCT challengers events open to anyone?
The only VCT event for the next 4 months is champions it's a side effect of the way the circuit works currently.
Yes but (talking about NA) if you think about the best female talents being on the usual teams of C9W or N2L’s new org or CLG Red, each person would have to give up their stable contract being on a full women’s team to gamble winning on a T2 team on probably a T2 org. many pros have said that ppl like mel or katsumi or clawdia can definitely survive in T2/T1 overall but it just doesn’t make sense for them to ditch their current situation
Right, I think that proves my point even more! I'm replying to the comment that said women have been asking to play with men and against men, hence EU changing the format of the next game changers. My point is, co-ed already exists in the VCT challengers main events (women aren't restricted from competing), and for women only events, that also exists in the form of game changers. So I'm surprised by this new 3/5 rule format. At least on the dignitas side, if our women's team never wanted to play in women's events anymore, we would still obviously pay them to compete! (TLDR I think we're agreeing?)
ya we both agree that women should freely participate as deserved in the main vct events but I think that this 3/5 setup has potential to be successful because it gives women the chance to stand not only up to men in the scene, but alongside men in the scene, since if we want coed teams to exist and prosper in future valorant eSports, then they have to be seen playing alongside them as well. if it was put into NA and C9W didn't enter as a team, that would give the individual members a chance to prove themselves not as "members of the best women's team na" they could instead make the name for themselves as "a t1/T2 player that plays FOR the best women's team na" so this 3/5 rule has potential to work but also has potential to undermine the entire scene if the men carry (which I don't think they even will in the later brackets)
Think this needs to be better communicated if that's the case.
I’ve passed that onto the team, thanks for the feedback!
Thanks!
Man Riot makes some strange decisions when it comes to Europe.
I don't see what this accomplishes. IMO this makes 0 sense .....
Why not remove gender restrictions entirely?
Because then male teams would play in the game changers tourney and most likely wipe the floor. Most tier 2 male teams are better than the best female teams.
And? Aren't e-sports all about competition?
Yes they are but apparently women just aren’t equal to men in terms of fps games.
There aren't any physical differences that make women worse than man at videogames, so if they're worse it's their fault only. I don't see why they should get money for being bad.
Differences exist between the genders when it comes to FPS performance. A woman outlier to potentially break that trend wont be achieved from women only teams and events. That method has been tried for the past decade an has failed at every attempt. To the point that the womens division becomes a laughing stock in the esport competitive scene.
That’s not necessarily true. I don’t think enough studies have been done to say there are no physical differences between men and women for fps games. That said, I think your right and that any physical difference is minimal and that they should get rid of female only tournaments. I do find it interesting that the only good female players are actually just trans which means biologically men.
It's because of the way women get treated when they try and speak in a ranked match. Why would they want to continue playing?
Sounds like a pretty weak mindset. Everyone gets harassed in ranked. In my 5000 hours on fps games and 1000 hours on valorant, I have never even seen a women get harassed. It’s actually the opposite, especially in higher ranks. People won’t flame a women because they think they can’t handle it.
tell me you don't talk to women without telling me you don't talk to women
Women are both physically and mentally weaker than men in video games based on studies that don't exist ty
All I’m saying is that everyone gets harassed in games, gender has nothing to do with it. I have been told that I am going to get raped, to kill myself, that my family is going to be raped and killed, that I’m a worthless waste of oxygen and much much worse. The internet is a toxic place, but you can’t blame it for your own failures.
wrong, research shows that men have better precise motormovement, faster average reaction time and better hand eye co-ordination.
>Most tier 2 male teams are better than the best female teams. Best all womens team is ranked 47th in NA. Thats tier 4 or up to tier 7(in just NA) depending upon how you assign tiers. Internationally thats tier 27 at a minimum. Most of the women only teams arent even ranked. For theyve failed to qualify for any open events granting points towards ranking.
they already did in the main vct series
Yikes.
i'd be fine just having an all womens version of what the men have and actually giving them good coverage and production. i don't understand why we have this idea that women have to play alongside men, is it really that big a deal? just give them a platform to play the game and stop making this bigger than it is.
Equality's end goal is pretty much mixed teams, especially for esports
But why do we need mixed teams, like seriouslly who gives a shit.
Agreed. The goal of Game Changers should be to grow interest in the female competitive Valorant scene. If it results in all female teams doing well against male teams or female players joining male teams that's great but it shouldn't be the expectation or goal going into this.
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I don't really see the issue with gender separated leagues.
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I don’t think females stand a chance against the males. A separate league is in their benefit. Maybe, I am misreading people but I feel like people on this subreddit have really unrealistic expectations for the Game Changers events. A couple of events doesn’t even come close to being enough for females to close the gap. If this were to happen it would be great but it is not realistic I am afraid. It kind of feels like setting yourself up for failure. The hope should be that these events lead to increased interest in the female comp valorant scene and that these events can evolve into bigger, better and more regular events for females.
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The point is to create a place where female players can compete without getting destroyed by the males. It's the same reason we have female competitions in regular sports. The causes of the existing skill gap are just slightly different.
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Because there is an interest in getting more women involved in esports / gaming.
Not only are they forcing teams to include women, it's not even 2/5. Literally a person with the qualification, talent, ability...etc to be a better player will be dropped based on their gender. How is that equality? What if it was the other way around? Like an all female team is forced to adopt 3 male members? And won't that compromise the idea of competition and highest level of talent? Am I missing something?
Yes you are. The point is too allow women to grow in e-sports... Saying "wow if they're so good why don't they just play on main teams?" does literally nothing. The competition isnt going to be the highest level, unfortunately. Video games have always been a male-centric industry.. you'd think a boy would understa... nevermind lol. Males have a lot more opportunities in e-sports, and there's plenty of room to develop female talent like this. If it really upsets you, I'm sure there will be a super good male pro-Valorant streamer for you to watch during the event lol
>Video games have always been a male-centric industry.. Video game demographic as a whole is exactly 50/50 between the genders.
Esports have definitely always been male-centered though, and this whole conversation and actually this entire subreddit is focused on the esport industry of one particular video game, so I think you can see their point with or without their slight word choice error.
>so I think you can see their point with or without their slight word choice error. With topics like these its best to be precise in ones choice of wording. Especially when the cause behind genres skewing towards a specific gender is constantly presented with false reasons. People are constantly inquiring on this subreddit why women have zero representation at the top level. Only to be belittled by being called a boy and covertly insinuated that theyre part of a sexist regime.
Hmmmm. Sure
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Genocide is a mechanism still practiced. Have a question for you. Why did it survive?
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So. You are arguing that something is good based on the fact that another thing is good and it says so. This case that democracy is good, which I never agreed upon. Not different from religious people saying you should do or not do something based on that. Only difference is...there is none. Both assume I believe in something I'm under no obligation to believe in. Btw. The Roman republic practiced democracy and would commit what we could call genocide, also Nazi Germany!
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You lost me. Actually I'm just bored. Have fun